WEBVTT - The State of Tech Journalism with Kylie Robison and Mike Isaac 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:10.960 Alone media, nobody say anything weird. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:13.080 Than me. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.200 Hello, Ande, Welcome to Better Offline. This is the second 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.560 episode of Better Off Live, the life to tape show 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.960 that I do whenever I travel, and I pick up 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.519 wonderful people like my good friend Mike Isaac from The 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.760 New York Times, who joins me today, and of course 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.280 Kylie Roberson, the one for Kylie Robison from The Verge. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.199 Thank you both for coming, thanks for having me, Thank you. 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:46.559 And today is and I'm definitely checking the date on 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.160 my phone Friday, the nineteenth of July. So nothing big 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.520 has happened today other than everything breaking. So for those 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.279 of you listening, this is likely going to come out 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.280 after the CrowdStrike episode. I had to write the moment 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.440 I got back from breakfast until the moment I left 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.120 for this episode, and there will be a full explainer there. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:04.759 I'm not going to do this, and again this will 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:06.280 be after it. So I don't know why I'm even 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.800 saying that we're in a weird time in the tech industry. 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.160 It feels like we are watching, at least I think, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.400 the end of the world. On some level. We're watching 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.759 the institutional failures that are just creating more and more problems. 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.080 And then also we're watching open AI on the other side, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.000 just like every two days, Like yeah, there's five levels 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.320 of reasoning and we are on number one, which is 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.399 just a very annoying chat bot that sometimes those things, 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.000 and level two will be when it's a smart computer, 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.480 and then level five smartest computer of all time or 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.320 without like an actual product people really care about. It 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.600 just feels strange. I feel weird right now, and I'm 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:45.520 pretty weird anyway. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:51.520 I'm just waiting for them to be useful. Does that 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:53.920 make sense or like, like I don't know, Like it 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.760 feels very I mean you tell me, like we're like 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.200 super steeped in it, but like it feels very like 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.600 everyone I have decided this is the thing we have 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:04.680 to build, or this is the thing we're moving towards, 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.880 and like the utility of it almost comes later, like 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:10.960 they're sort of like ahead of themselves. 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:12.560 A little strange. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.280 I'm surprised, but I'm also steeped in it, and I 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.920 try to get my friends to use it to see 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.919 if it's helpful. My civil engineer partner has started using 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.079 it for seismic projects, which is very very niche thing, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.480 but obviously it's not accurate. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.679 Yeah, no, orever, that's not ever. That's the thing though. 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.960 They keep saying, well, it hallucinates now, but it won't 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.800 in the future. And then you say why and they go, oh, sorry, 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.120 how even and they go, well, we will get to that. 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.480 Yeah after right, answer this phone call in the other room. 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:45.440 So it's like five miles down the road. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.239 Because watching the last few years with the metaverse and 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.360 Crypto and all this, this is kind of beginning to 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.600 look like I realized there's a product. No, but I 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.079 remember back in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, there 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.240 were these roadmaps you get. You get the roadmap for 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.200 like the Border Yacht Club, and it would be like 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.320 the first thing would be whatever they launched, and no, 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:04.400 you're a big investiment. 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.639 Please don't try. That's a joke. Just to be clear. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:14.600 New York Times editorial part. If they do, it's my joke. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.679 You have these roadmaps, it would be like, yeah, step one, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.679 we released the apes. Step two, we will have a 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:22.760 special chat room for the apes. Step eight. 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.640 Step one release the apes. Good you can swear, okay, 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:28.079 just check. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.080 This is a cuss fill podcast. You can say fucking 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.720 shit and all the words, okay, but on the rub 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:35.760 and then step eight would be like a real life 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.240 club in Miami for apes, And I'm actually being serious 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.040 that is on the roadmap, and they've promised this like 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.120 metaverse where you can play as your apes in the computer, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.640 and all of that seems more real than steps two 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.680 through five of the open AI reasoning thing. But it's 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.560 almost like to your point, it's like everyone is just 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:56.920 committed to this bit now. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.240 I feel like for me a lot of the time 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.240 and I'm thinking about it just feels like constant fomo 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.320 across the industry and like always keeping your eye on 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:07.680 like what your. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:08.560 Competitors are doing. 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.520 And like part of this I think may be legitimate 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.720 because of people are always like, oh, we missed the 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.520 smartphone right, or we missed like the next platform play 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:23.040 that we shouldn't have and that's instructive and because Google 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.040 really cares about this, we should too. And like like 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.440 with with self driving, if you remember, like everyone was 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.080 all in on self driving cars and all these companies 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.000 spun up and they're all like falling out and it 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.680 just I don't know, like maybe there's some sort of 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.200 there's there is a logic to it, but to me, 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.720 it just feels like a cart before the horse a 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.280 lot of the time when when I'm trying to grasp 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.479 like what do we with generally do with gen Yeah, 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.599 that's a good distinction, like jen AI versus like AI 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.880 being like because AI is not also like not a 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.080 new thing, right, Like it's not. You can't just speak 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.960 about it as like, Okay, this is just happening. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.840 Me and Edward just talking about this about the generative distinction. Yeah, 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.200 I don't know. I do kind of buy the hyphe 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.880 a little bit. I guess I don't know it's good. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:13.359 Ed knows this. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.320 But did you guys see the lighter model. Do you 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:17.680 guys have some opinions about that. 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.840 I don't have opinions that tell. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.839 Me, oh god, the lighter model is cheaper. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.880 Uh. They say it's smarter, but technically it's supposed to 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.599 be you know, less computing power for cheaper, so people 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.440 can build whatever shit they want that they couldn't because 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.720 it was way more expensive with a larger and more 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.080 capable model. And you don't need to like build a 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:43.000 shitty little bot with like a giant model anyways, a 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.599 little model exactly. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:45.960 Okay, I get the sense in that. 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.000 Yeah, so but they did that because you know all 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:53.279 of these Mistral just released a lighter, tinier model, Anthropic 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.520 has a tiny model, Google has a tiny model, and 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.200 people developers are more likely to go to those models 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:03.160 whether I build something, and Chat did not have anything 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:03.680 of the sort. 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:09.560 So yeah, So my biggest problem with that is everyone 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.880 is racing to the bottom, and a race to the 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:16.760 bottom is not traditionally something associated with good outcomes. And 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.640 so it is good that it's cheap or whatever, but 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.120 also this company is still not profitable. This company is 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:26.159 still not particularly useful, and so you've got this situation 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.000 where everyone's like, well, on top of not being profitable 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.520 and on top of not being super useful, we're also 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.040 all having to make the thing cheaper. It is not profitable, yes, 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.680 and it's just and also that will surely increase usage, 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.760 which will not fix the sustainability problem. It just feels 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.440 like we're accelerating towards a wall in the tech industry 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.000 and I feel a little bit crazy. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.680 No, I'm really interested in that. I mean, there's the 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.719 was it six hundred billion dollar problem, right, yes. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.800 And then the trillion dollar Goldman Sax problem. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:55.360 Yes, exactly. 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.440 It does feel that way that there it's just like, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.960 let's just keep dumping money into this thing that it's 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.279 it's not useful now, we hope it'll be useful in 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:02.760 the future. 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.600 You know. It all just feels kind of disingenuous as well, 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.800 because they're not even dumping six hundred million dollars into 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.679 AI because Google has had AI initiatives. In fact, Google 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.480 deliberately avoided the metaverse. Yeah, incredible one move by Sun 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.240 Dar Well done, mate, But they've been piling money into 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.280 AI like over a decadic quite deep mind every time, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.880 but like this is the one you put the money into, 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.960 like this is this is your king and it's just 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.360 it's just artly confusing as well. But I also think 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.040 it puts the tech media in this really weird position. Yeah, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.320 where I get and I'm not putting anyone on blust, 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.520 including you. I get why people have to say humor this. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:42.880 Yeah, oh I get it. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.440 Yeah, I get why people have to say, like, oh yeah, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.600 the five magical layers of reasoning, even though the logic 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:49.960 with that and by the way, for the listeners and 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:51.960 just skipping over a thing you should I should have 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.120 told you about. There was a story that came out 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.440 in Bloomberg and it was saying open AI now has 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.680 five levels of reason, of steps towards of artific intelligence 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.200 towards superintelligence, and step one is like chat bop. Step 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.640 two is like agents agents, and it's just very vague. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.920 In the story from Bloomberg was like completely flat faced. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.320 She's like, yep, this is perfectly reasonable. But the logic 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.040 is it's like saying I'm a man and I'm on 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.400 step one of becoming Spider Man, right, And it's just 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.080 I get why we have to mine Max Journey from 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.240 Royer's sorry Max, well, actually Max Rocks he put he 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:29.800 put it to me quite well, and he was saying, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.720 it's open a eye is important, though we have to 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.160 cover them even and I mean, what are you gonna do? 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.679 Just say this is bullshit and he's right. And Bloomberg 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.400 especially like and even like the Times as well. It's 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.559 not like your opinion writer, it's Kylie. You can get 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.600 a bit into the opinion. And we talked about it 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.200 also in your GPT four, oh mini piece you even 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.400 talk about the problems associated with there. But it's weird. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.560 It's this weird situation where what happens if this is 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.880 all bullshit what happens now, and it's been like three 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.319 cycles of bullshit. 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.160 Yeah, crypto is instructive, I think there. But I totally 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:09.880 agree with you that it it sort. 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.240 Of becomes a self fulfilling or like it it becomes 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.040 like weighty because of the attention it gets, and it 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.120 gets more attention because of that. I do think that 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.720 like there is a way of covering it, and hopefully 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:27.680 a way that media learned from a lot of the 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.280 bubble around crypto, A lot of the bubble around I 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.160 think self driving again is like another instructive case, just 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.920 because like everything was five years away for twenty years basically, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.200 and I I think it's like I think you're right. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.560 I think we're stuck in like a dilemma of you 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.120 can't ignore it because more like all like half of 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.120 VC is going into AI right now. I literally like 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.720 those are the numbers, and so so you have to follow, Yeah, 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:56.480 what was it an ass? 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:58.920 I need to read my own pero, but. 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.560 I really don't read my own bo But but so 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.040 you can't ignore the money. But at the same time, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.600 I do think you can. You can at least introduce 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.720 a level of which I hope we're getting better at, 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.640 which is like, Okay, this is like a thing. Everyone 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.160 thinks it's the thing, but like, can we please take 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:16.880 the temperature down a little bit? And I do think 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.480 that like Goldman, Sachs and Sequoya notes that you're referencing, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.439 which poor at least some cold water on it is 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.800 getting there is moving us towards that. 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.120 Sekoya one though, because he's just like, yeah, it's no 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:34.120 real problem being solved, super expensive and yeah, but you know, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:35.360 I still think it's good. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:37.880 It's just the way you gotta talk to your book. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.080 There's a great bit in it as well where he 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.120 was saying like, yeah, the new the new B one 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:47.080 hundred processes man video that they're like twenty five percent better, 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.600 but only like twenty five percent more expensive. It's not 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.720 like he's saying, look more efficient, because that's if video 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.679 came up with something which Jensen Wong is incapable of doing, 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.480 that was more power efficient rather than more powerful, that 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.840 would actually be significant because look, I would hate to 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.160 do this. I would be so mad. I just want 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.720 to be clear. If I'm wrong about generative AI, I 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.559 will look like such a bell end. I'm gonna look 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.280 like the biggest twat in all the world. Everyone's gonna 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:18.480 laugh at me. I'm going to point you idiot, but 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:23.000 I'm not wrong, and I'll disappear if I am. But 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.280 it's just all of these things keep coming out, and 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.960 it feels like, because to your point, sure the media 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.199 got taken by crypto and the metaverse, I don't think 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.280 they're not being taken. I think you two are you 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.080 do you guys? You're doing the right thing. 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:39.600 Because we're in front of Mike's. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:44.679 But also I wouldn't have brought you on here if 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.840 I didn't like it that otherwise I would just be 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:53.760 like in trouble, you fucking But it's it feels like 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.160 the rest of the media is kind of flubbing it 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.640 as well, because there is a level on buff you 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.320 do this whis good. There's a lack of context any 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.760 of this shit, the sheer amount of money this costs, 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.199 and the way that people look at the tech industry 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:10.079 outside of pech is souring so badly because of this, 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.520 because it's kind of like politics. It's people are souring 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:18.520 because the media, in the chasing objectivity becomes even more 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.200 subjective because when you don't subjectively apply reasoning to open AI, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.760 for example, you end up in this weird situation where 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:28.920 it's like you're actually just parroting their talking points. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:29.520 Yeah, oh yeah. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.120 It's really important to have that distinction. And this is 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.240 a really good advice that I got from one of 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.920 my favorite podcast hosts, is that you should write about 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.760 You should write about what you're what they're doing today 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.840 and not what they're saying they're going to do later. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.559 And I think that's a really important distinction and really 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.080 really hard because most of the conversations you're having with 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:49.840 them is stuff what you're going to be doing with 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.120 this technology, not really stuff we're doing today. 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:53.679 Most of today's kind of. 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:58.240 Boring research safety mechanisms that they're deploying and very like 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.200 tiny tiny, tiny little steps to the large language model. 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.600 But it's not like we're going to solve the climate 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.520 crisis and also destroy the climate and physics. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.200 Yeah, it's it's wild. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:13.640 I feel like some of the problem around coverage and 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.440 I don't think everyone does this, but I think like 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.760 this is all happening at the same time the media 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:23.480 is getting destroyed as and so like institutional knowledge goes 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.440 out the door a long time. Like I feel like 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.000 I mean, just speaking for myself, I feel lucky that 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.880 I've had a tech job for fourteen years or covering 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.079 tech for fourteen years, so like still like a drop 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:35.559 in the bucket as far as like the history of 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:37.320 the valley, but like I've. 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:38.880 Been through a few of these cycles, so I can 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:39.360 at least. 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.679 Rattle off shit that I know, like from whatever. And 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:47.160 I feel like when Google is no longer servicing news 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.200 in the same way it is, Facebook has pulled out 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.520 of news completely, like it's it's killing everyone, but the 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.720 like really big players and even the really big players 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:55.400 are getting hit. 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.480 So I think it's just like it's not there are 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.199 a few things going on there. I guess what I 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:02.080 would say, Do. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.440 We think that the Perplexity incident changed anything? 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.960 So the Perplexity incident for listeners is. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:11.040 For me, it's no I have. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.240 Yeah, I have wonderful listeners who are not in the 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.520 tech indust trying to learn from me. Your mistake, not mine. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.440 This is the Perplexity AI. They're a company that lets 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.080 you search using the power of AI. When they first 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.240 announced it was like ship this is Google's dinner being 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.520 eaten in front of them. Wow. And the latest thing 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.160 they did was they do article summaries, which is just 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.480 otherwise known as stealing, and they ripped an entire Forbes 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:45.120 article I believe it was from and it was fantastic writer. Seriously, 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.480 like Forbes has got its problems with several fucking rocks. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:48.680 But tech tsk is great. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.600 And so you have this thing where it would generate 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.200 this story and just rip it off. And they ripped 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.720 off the Forbes story. And then when Forbes complained, John 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.240 Pachowski is John and he just ripped them public and 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.280 so Perplexity's answer was to add citations at the top 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.680 to four or five places that had aggregated. 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:06.920 The yeah story. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.720 And it's just like, this is the thing. I do 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.479 not understand why the tech media is not more antagonistic 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.880 to these people, because fucking how, come on, man, don't 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.280 steal my shit. You've already been doing it. Yeah, And 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.080 it feels at this point like some of the tech 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.640 media are kind of like trying to kick that football 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.080 at Charlie Brown. Yeah, they won't screw us over this time, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.600 And then they do and it's even worse than before. 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.600 But I don't know if it's like a level of 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.680 complacency though, it's just like, I don't know. It just 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.600 seems like people are so tired and everyone's getting fired 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.520 and things are We're so over, you know, we're so cooked. 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:43.800 It's like it's like, what do we do ever been 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.440 so bad? So I feel like that's a bit of 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:47.760 it as well. At least that's what it feels like 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:49.720 to me, is people are like this sucks. I don't 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:50.120 know what to do. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.880 Also, what's weird as well is everyone's acting like tech 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.320 isn't fun anymore, and it isn't. When you look at 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.160 what's in the tech media now there is. I'll send 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.920 this to Max zep from tech Crunch. Lovely Fella used 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.760 to be a Gizmodo. I was talking to him about 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.000 this and it's like, take is this industry when you 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.120 look at it that combines the best of sports journalism, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.640 financial journalism, entertainment journalism, and gossip. There's all sorts of 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.600 weird freaks, strange little weirdos like Sam Altman in this 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.680 weird broken house. He's like, I don't know why my 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.520 house is so sharing, like ship into the yard a coyotes. 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.280 By the way, Samman is currently suing the people who 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:29.480 sold him a house. 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:31.720 In diligence on as well, because he. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.960 Did no inspection and like a coyote took up residents 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.680 in his backyard, bloody to his house. It's like, I 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.640 can't believe I lost money as he drives like a 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.880 five million dollar ugly assed car. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.720 Like, oh yeah, I didn't even know. I've never even 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.080 heard of that car in my life. I mean, I 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:50.280 saw THEE. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.800 I'm not saying anyone should do this, but if someone 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.760 let out the tires, very funny. 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:56.080 No comment. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.480 No, I'm not saying anyone should do it, but if 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.960 it happened unrelated to me, especially legally speaking, take picture 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:05.760 easy better offline dot com, email me THEE. 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:07.399 I did say he was busy this weekend, so that 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:07.840 makes sense. 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.040 Yeah yeah yeah, and it's it's definitely not just hanging 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.240 out with my friend and drinking a bunch of beers. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.040 But the thing is, like that is great gossip journalism, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:18.040 Like that's just fun. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:18.760 She gives a shit. 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:20.800 Katen the Topless BI has done a really good job 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.919 at this as well, Like there's so much fun in 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.480 this industry. I just bought this weird little thing called 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.000 a GPD Win four and it's like a thousand dollars 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.239 little computer. It looks like a PlayStation VT. You can 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.000 run Windows on, it's playing Diablo four on it. That 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.680 shit's fun. And you've got this weird crap being made 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.679 in China. Now we can't possibly touch it compossibly. Weve 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.680 got to talk about Sam Mortman's magic broken API. Thing 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.680 kind of sucks. And it's just I think that. 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.520 Tech journalists touch a lot of I mean, I think 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.120 that's like a narrow vision of what we're talking about. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:52.520 It's the most popular stuff. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.800 I don't even know if it's the most written about. Though. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.320 It feels like we've gotten away from the time when 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.520 we talked about the fun shit. Yeah when it talks, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.040 because it's like the money isn't there, and I think 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.040 that that really is it. Like the money to your point, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.840 we have to cover open AI to some extent because 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.400 even if they are building nothing, they're taking a lot 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.760 of money to do so, and they're making potentially one 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.439 hundred billion dollar deals with Microsoft to build a supercomputer. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.640 But it feels like the funds just kind of got 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.199 like we're not enjoying I don't everyone I talked to 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:22.679 is kind of just like to your point, kind of 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.199 like tired, yeah, and everything so on fine, Like I 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.399 think the I would like it if open Ai actually 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.560 did what they claim they were doing. That would be interesting. 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:33.600 I don't want jobs to go away, but I'd love 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.359 like the computer to be smart. I love my phone 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:43.119 to work sometimes like intelligence Intelligence Tim cooked and he. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:44.920 I don't know if. 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.000 It was an episode, but it's just it's frustrating because 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.400 there is real joy and really interesting ship, like even 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.680 in the Valley. But it feels like there's less journalists 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.639 in San Francisco these days. They still are here, but 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.320 there's not as many. It's not like twenty fourteen twenty 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.159 fifteen when you had weird indie go go freaks and hackathons, 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.520 which is still happening. But they're not getting me attention. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.560 I wonder what is I think. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.800 I don't know the people in San Francisco. The journalists 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:11.080 I know. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.680 I have like a twenty twenty five people deep group 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.240 chap just young tech journalists, well not all tech, but 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:17.440 journalists in San Francisco. 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.720 People in one chat yeah whatever the sms or. 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.280 Like wha, yeah, it's just a bunch of wack. 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:26.080 There you go. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:27.920 But they exist. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.239 I think they're still figuring it out and you know, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.560 but not to plug my own company. But it's the 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.520 reason I went to the Verge is because it's just like, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.200 will you pay me to write weird shit? And that's 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.080 all they do. I mean, they just did a bunch 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:41.480 of posts on Legos the other day, like. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.840 The yeah oh that I saw that ye yeah yeah. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.200 I literally this morning and I work slack. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.720 I was like, I sort of miss blogging, like it 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.399 was very it's very yeah. 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.639 Posting just let me just let me say whatever, and 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.439 they do, like I can really just go at it 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.800 with any I love blogging. That's why I got into 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:02.720 tech reporting. 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.760 So I feel like that is actually text salvation. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:07.560 Hm, it's blogging. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:08.280 Save the blog. 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:13.520 I'm not serious, because it's the thing I wrote today, 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.439 which will become a script and you're gonna read it 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:16.919 and then you're gonna hear it. You'd be like the 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.240 newsletter and the podcast was similar, and you fucking do 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.760 an episode anyway. But writing that up and being able 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:25.159 to go at it, and I'd realize them in a 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.720 different position to you too. But it's like opinion journalism, 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.919 even just even if the opinion is I like it 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.440 and it's good something some life all things digital when 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:43.240 there and some great writers came out of There's a 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.720 Beast and once again I'll apologize missread Ronny stories and 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:51.120 made a snarky tweet. You have my ass forever. You've 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.240 got to get give them wrong. But that's the thing. 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.720 It feels like TECK has got so rigid and it's 0:20:55.720 --> 0:21:00.320 turned into almost different aberrations of Bloomberg type things. But 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.240 then you occasionally get something out of the journal and 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.719 that's very presient where it's like the training date ya one. 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.280 It just yeah, it doesn't feel like tech journalism is 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:10.840 given the freedom it needs to actually deal with the tech. 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.919 Industry totally, totally. 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.560 I haven't had that experience of writing analysis until I 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.119 came to The Verge, and it was kind of beaten 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:20.400 out of me in a sense, is that you're really 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.360 not supposed to have an opinion, and you're really supposed 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.879 to be, you know, just just very very neutral. And 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.280 then I found a lot of the people who follow 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.040 my work really liked when I said what I thought 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.119 about a specific topic, which is I know, silly and 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.200 kind of a given for many people, but I think 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:38.280 it's it's valuable. 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.040 You know, did you come up in traditional orgs. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:41.680 I came. 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.719 I started at BI so that was I was a 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.800 software developer culture reporter. So it was like this software 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.400 developer built this project and they're doing this ye know. 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:52.520 Which which was so fun. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.359 But then it was like scoop City, Peloton stuff, so 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:58.359 that's very you know, and then it just and then 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.240 I came to Fortune and then it was all Twitter 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:05.160 Fortune Magazine, so it was all Twitter reporting the implosion 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.320 ex Twitter, and so then that wasn't so fun. I mean, 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.520 it was really fun as a journalist, and then the 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.520 audience is like, I'm really tired of hearing about this, honestly, 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.119 So yeah, now I get to do more of the 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:18.240 like analysis. 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.520 Just what sticks out to me is when you really 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.040 take a step back, this entire industry is just what 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:26.000 did Sam Oltman get up to you today? Oh my goodness? 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:27.520 And he had a bit of that with what with 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:29.560 w w DC. You have people taking a photo of 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.760 him and then he did nothing, which is I love 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.960 that Tim Cook humiliated him. I didn't see it that, no, no, no, 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:37.840 he didn't say anything about him. Sam Wilton was there 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.280 and everyone was posting pictures of so yeah, and then 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.480 no mention of s going to get up, and says 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.920 Tim Cook, And there was a picture of Eddie Q 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.440 talking to Samueltman and he looked like he was kind 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:51.000 of ripping him. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:51.480 It was great. 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:53.360 I'm sure it was like a normal conversation, but I'd 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:54.080 like to believe. 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.560 It was like okay here and I said, sit at 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.679 the back, Samuel, I did I have heard more of 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.639 the It's actually really interesting because like there was this 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.160 period of like, let's I mean, this is in my head, 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.800 but I feel like there was the like heyday of 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:11.880 tech where it was like guys and hoodies and everyone 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:13.600 was like, ooh, this is aspirational. 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:15.800 Then we went through like a correction of like more 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:21.320 accountability journalism and like everyone's going after X company or whatever, 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:26.080 and like I think that exists to some degree now 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.000 still in a big way. But I also feel like 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.440 there's maybe a push from some folks with the sentiment 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.880 that you're giving, which is like can we is there 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.840 like fun or interesting or aspirational things that we can 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:42.680 write about or think about again that we miss hearing about, 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:43.120 which I've. 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.240 Been I've been thinking about a lot more. 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:48.760 It's like it's weird, like to like historically I feel 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.840 like I've done a lot more of the like critical stuff, 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.840 but I like there are interesting things going on that 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.960 maybe we could focus on. But it's also not like 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.159 an either or you know, like I still feel like 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.240 you can do both of those things. It's just figuring 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:05.560 out who can do that and who wants to do that, 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:06.520 maybe totally. 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.920 And it's advice that so both Kylie and I share 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:13.160 the same mentor the wonderful Matt Weinberger. I see enough 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:19.520 to this the guys sen say bloggers. And one of 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:20.920 the things he said to me, and I'm sure he 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:22.639 said to you is people come to you for your voice. 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:25.760 And it's true, and it sucks because you have so 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.240 many people like you, Mike. I'm not saying anything's wrong 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.359 with the times, but it's not like your style comes 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:31.600 through there is. 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:33.800 It's like a house style. Yeah I have to sort 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:34.520 of yeah. 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:37.320 But also an interesting fucking fellow and it doesn't get 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:42.760 to come through. And Fard we need far haadback. 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:42.880 Mike's sweets for sure. 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:44.960 Far had He did the thing about men not washing 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:46.160 their asses, and I was like. 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:52.000 God, that was a good If you've not heard of him, 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:53.960 he is a writer, is a Slate. 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.119 He's at the New York Times, and he would just 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:00.840 a lot of his articles have just him going like 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:05.560 the American Adrian chills, Yeah. 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:08.360 Adrian Childs, Yeah, guy who writes like I have a. 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.840 Urinal in my house and my guests are upset far 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:14.720 had did and kind of what Kate in the Topless 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:18.400 is doing business inside it. And I swear to God 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:20.879 that is where tech finds its salvation because all of 0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.680 this financialization of everything is just fucking boring. I'm sorry, 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:26.000 I will do I do my episodes about it, but 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:28.800 I'm pissed off for many reasons at all times. But 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:31.399 a lot of it is cutting through the financial stuff 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:35.000 to say, what's actually happening. Why did Google Search get worse? 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:37.320 It wasn't because like the computer got unplugged. It's because 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.600 of organizational issues. Why does that happen? It's a cultural issue. 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:43.440 It's the push of management. But it's when you incentivize 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:45.520 an entire assystem to growth. Goh blah blah blah blah. 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.000 Everyone's heard those rants. But the actual fund is the 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:51.399 weird ship being built. It doesn't have to be perfect. 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:53.840 When I had Alex Krantz in the Verge on for 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.080 an episode the very first Better Off Live. She was 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.199 talking about these gaming the same like the gpd wan 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:01.680 for these weird gaming things, and she's like, it's kind 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.119 of shit, but I love them. Yeah, I feel like 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.840 that is tech to me more than anything. It's these weird, 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:09.160 quirky things. Like the first gadget I ever really am 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.840 is like a creative nomad CD player sized MP three players. 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.120 Wait, it was that huge chunky I had that too, 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:17.640 because it was like a fat piece of shit. 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:19.160 But it could hold five thousand song. 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:21.440 It's all good. Five thousand at the time is incredible. 0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:23.920 Love that and it's weird. 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:25.800 It's like tech doesn't have to be perfect, but it 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:28.080 has to do something. But the tech industry right now 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:31.080 feels like it's not perfect, but it's also not good totally. 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:34.280 It's just we need to get back. We need crunch 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:37.239 gear back crunch gear. Crunch gear was the tech they 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:40.760 did the gadget thing Neving called away. Legend met him 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:43.240 in Canada about a month and a half ago. Legend 0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:45.480 just why about any old ship and it's fun and 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:48.840 it's interesting. I feel like I will say that Bloomberg 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:51.639 when it comes to financial coverage, is actually excellent and 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:55.680 also Ed Ludlow is for Bloomberg TV. Surprisingly he is everywhere. Yeah, 0:26:57.280 --> 0:27:00.640 but it's I feel like we lean less financial for journalism. 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:04.000 We don't no one's getting anything. It's all people. This 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:07.240 is not putting anyone on blast his specifically, but no 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:09.760 one's getting an actual scoop about open AI right now. 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:12.960 Yeah, all the like real meaty stuff is kind of 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:15.480 I mean, well, I think they have a lot at 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:18.359 stake because everyone's sort of locked down and shut up because. 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:19.960 It's and they're making a lot of money. 0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:22.880 Exactly, Like why would they they talk shit when they're 0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:23.399 gonna make it? 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:28.879 But open ai isn't know, but I think the verticals 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:31.440 the reason so I actually I think about this a 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:34.359 lot is like how can we how does coverage like 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:36.240 change or how can like big. 0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:39.679 Companies or big institutions like mine or like whatever like 0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:42.399 do that, And like a lot of it is down 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:46.560 to Okay, a business desk needs a beat reporter for X, 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:49.600 Y and Z companies because this is how you is 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:51.240 how you do it or this is how we do it, 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:53.119 and like it's a business desk, so it has to 0:27:53.160 --> 0:27:57.080 have like some form of financial angle. But at the 0:27:57.080 --> 0:28:00.159 same time, like over the past few years, are we 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.679 doing more accountability stuff or does this have nothing to 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:04.440 do with the business, you know, And like a lot 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.320 of the times, it can feel very just sort of 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:10.000 confused to me, confused. 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:12.200 On what the what is the mission here? 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:15.240 Are we saying this is a bad business because it's 0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:18.320 not making money? Are we saying it's a bad company 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:21.040 because it's bad for the world in X, Y or 0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:24.320 Z way, you know, And the stories kind of feel 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.199 schizophrenic or like at odds with one another, and like 0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:30.080 I don't know, I don't know if that's a you 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:31.080 have to define that. 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:35.000 And then like just also like I can just speak 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:35.840 with the times. 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:38.840 It's like very like this is what a reporter is 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:42.280 versus an opinion person. And like coming from like blog land, 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:46.240 I have less I like blurring those lines a little 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:48.719 bit more. But I also work here, so it's one 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:49.920 of those things, you know. 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:52.800 Yeah, Fortune was very much like that, where it's a 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:55.520 very specific tone and we had discussed this before and 0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:58.000 at the verge it really is. I mean, like I 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:00.360 just I barely get edited. It's just whatever I'm writing 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:01.800 at any given time. 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:03.320 Which is fun because it feels like a personal thing. 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:06.720 And that's why Misato, for example, she rucks why she 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.000 has been the one person getting se O right. Mea 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:13.640 open invite to the show. Fantastic look at Misto the Verge, 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:15.520 because she is one of the only people who actually 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:17.840 got se O right, and she got it right like 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.720 a year before everyone else, including myself totally Like she 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:23.120 whipped my ass on that one. I've had to site. 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:26.560 It works so much, it's great. That's because of the 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:28.600 open remit of The Verge. Now I have my critiques 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:29.960 of The Verge. You're not going to bring up to 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:37.440 day because next episode write me. But that kind of 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:39.720 open format reminds me of all things digital, which for 0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:41.480 listeners who didn't know it was like a kind of 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:43.720 a predecessor to the Wall Street Journal's Tech desk. And 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.960 Kara Swisher, who I will rip to ship on another episode, 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.200 is pretty good at mentorship though and team building. 0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:52.280 Who's great a talent. 0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:55.080 She helped me a lot, and that's the thing, Like 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:57.440 I go on Carrot a lot and I'll continue to 0:29:57.440 --> 0:29:59.400 do so come on the show, Carl, let's work this out. 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:01.400 That would be great, Actually, I would love it. 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:06.280 She not responded to my emails. I can't imagine why. 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:08.840 But the one thing she did was she can't let 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:10.160 you guys go loose. And that's why you had like 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:15.040 Jason Delray, who was one of the best e commerce reporters. 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:17.680 He's a fortune now Fantastic News. I didn't actually know that. 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:21.200 And you, Mike, you got your start there, Jowski, I 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:21.840 believe as well. 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:26.120 Like Pat's great. I can't remember, no it. 0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:33.760 Was, but you he was a plastic writer early, one 0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:36.800 of the best mobile reporters. And also Kara Swisher was there. 0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:40.200 And but what made that good was it was kind 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:44.560 of messy. People just went at some ship and it 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:46.680 was good. It was and it was actually at the 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:49.200 right time. It was not critical enough. But I don't 0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:51.680 think that that was. No one was critical at that time. 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:53.520 That's right. I think that. I think that. 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:58.480 I so, yes, A, I think Kars was really good 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:00.440 at spot. I mean, just take myself out of it. 0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:02.520 I think she was good at like she did this 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:07.000 recode later just like figure out who's hungry, who's like 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.080 not been around and jaded for long enough and wants 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.360 to like hit it hard and then go back to 0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:15.080 them and like fortunately I was twenty three at the time, 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:17.320 so I had more energy than I do now, but 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:21.240 or no, twenty five. Fuck, I don't know, but maybe 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:26.280 twenty five. But I that is I think about that 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:28.640 a lot, just in the like actually Cope used to 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:30.400 tell me this a lot, which was he was like 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:33.360 in a lot of places, you're asked to like do 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:36.720 a story and then go get an analyst who can like, yeah, 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:41.040 put like pat quote in you know or whatever, and like, look, 0:31:41.120 --> 0:31:44.760 there's there is they can say a thing that and 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:46.480 sometimes when I call these people they do give me 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:49.080 actually like good er original insights, but like you can 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:51.880 also just say what you think based on your expertise 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:56.120 of the matter and like it like assuming you know 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:58.360 what you're talking about or whatever, just have done the 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.240 reporting in the background to get to a point where 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:03.960 you know where you're talking about. Like people respond to that, 0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:07.040 you know. And I think Twitter has been like my 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:09.800 hack or work around for a long time until before 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:14.240 it like fucking broke. But like I think that, yeah, 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.400 that just sort of I'm trying to think of like 0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:19.360 where that exists really now? 0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:22.080 Yeah, I mean besides what you guys do all. 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:25.800 Things decreated some like just monster reporters and to. 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:27.960 Hear that you guys got that kind of freedom really 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:30.480 early on, and like early in your career too, to 0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:32.959 be like, dude, you know this, you spend all your 0:32:33.000 --> 0:32:35.800 time working on this, like say what you think here 0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:37.320 in Yeah, And I think. 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:40.760 These conditions also created. And I'm not saying it's anyone 0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:43.440 in the media's fault, because it's not the media's job 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.400 to stop them running shitty companies. But I believe that 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:49.520 that period where and it's like the really the late 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:51.840 twenty tens where the media just kind of was like, 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:56.040 we trust these guys, right, and then we couldn't like 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.680 we like And I'm not even trying to be nihilistic 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.280 saying you can't trust the single te fun but I 0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:03.960 don't know. I wouldn't have trust Mark Zuckerberg. He's a 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:08.400 very damn looking guy as well. But trusting these companies 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.640 was a mistake. But also when the whole industry was 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.680 trying to be enthusiastic because it was fun. Mid twenty 0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:15.560 tens were a lot of fun. 0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:18.040 I watched Silicon Valley recently, and Cara's on that. 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:20.360 It really stands up by the way it's really good. 0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:22.200 I actually disagree. 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:23.720 Oh, I thought it was so good. 0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:24.960 It was shocking. 0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:27.040 I watched it and all I could think, and this 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.720 is because pr person I'll watch it went it feels 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:33.080 like people only like it because it's like they're taking 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:36.440 me seriously. I'll take lunch disruptors in it. 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:39.440 That real they did, Yeah they did. 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:40.320 That's great. 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:42.400 But that's the thing. I watched it, and I was 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:44.960 just I think I was just an early cynic. Yeah, 0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:48.000 just like fresh off my first divorce, just like, fuck 0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:54.120 these people, but it's my first. But also it's funny 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:57.360 because things have soured so quickly that I don't think 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:00.600 anyone's had time to adjust the irony ears. I think 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:04.080 kind of to your points as well. The adjustment that 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:06.560 was made to not trust these companies was to have 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:10.040 less opinion that a lack of object sorry, a lack 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:14.120 of objectivity was what the problem was, when actually, I 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.520 think we need more I think we need more people. 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:19.920 Peter Kafker over at Business Inside of former All Things Digital, 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:22.440 he has had some of the most presient things and 0:34:22.480 --> 0:34:24.440 business Insider. I can't believe I'm saying this. I do 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:27.960 work there occasionally has somehow got ahead of everyone with 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:29.440 the discourse columns. 0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:31.920 Oh yeah, totally good at that. 0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:33.719 But we need more. We need more of the verge. 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:35.359 We need more of this stuff. We need more four 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:36.040 o four. 0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:38.279 But four or four rocks, four or four rocks. 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:42.839 But also, come on, let the freaks out, let them 0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:46.000 dogs out. You've got you got Cobler over there, you 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:49.319 got you got, you got coal, You've got all these 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:52.320 people who can have just the most ass opinions. 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:56.919 Yeah, there's also like this insane distrust in media as well. 0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:57.719 Come on with it. 0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:00.560 So like if you've seen like you have an opinion, 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:03.560 or if you vote a certain way or anything, it's like, oh, well, 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:05.240 they're just like a plant. 0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:08.040 I actually had someone ask me. I won't say who. 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:11.200 I'll tell you guys after the podcast, but who asked 0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:13.720 me if I believe that there's like Chinese spies. 0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:15.239 And media, I'm not even kidding me. 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:16.120 Damn, you guys. 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:19.120 Definitely know who this is. But anyways, I actually. 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:24.440 Don't have Actually, so. 0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:26.480 Anyways, there's like this crazy distrust. 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:28.960 And so when I was coming onto the scene, I'm like, okay, 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.319 like I don't want anyone to think that I'm going 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:37.319 to Jesus Christ. But yeah, so I think it's really 0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:39.080 banged into you at that point. It's just like, Okay, 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:41.319 everyone kind of hates us and doesn't trust us, Like, 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:43.200 so why should we get to have an opinion? 0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:46.640 I do think there's some So I have to be 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.440 careful anyways, just because of where I work and because 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:53.080 I will get a handslap if I go too far. 0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:55.440 But like so I kind of know where my internal 0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:58.400 line is, if that makes sense. But like there is 0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:03.759 some element of strategy in holding back sometimes if it 0:36:03.880 --> 0:36:05.120 makes If that makes sense. 0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:05.920 Like you have to say it. 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:08.120 You can let the reader like show them, you know, 0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:10.560 and let the reader have that opinions. 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:12.239 Yeah, well I. 0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:14.439 Just think that. Like, look, I think there's two ways. 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:16.680 There's a few ways to go about just from a 0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:21.360 reporting sense, Like I know reporters who are very outspoken 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.399 of their point of view, and that works as a 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:27.239 sourcing tactic, right, Like they'll be like, okay, people will 0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:30.760 come to me because they really I'm not talking about 0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:34.080 the writing side. It's more like a like for me, 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:36.759 like just in reporting, I'm like, all right, I can 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:40.279 get a range of folks if I'm it's not really 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:42.840 fence sitting. But I just I I have thoughts that 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:45.360 I don't always put out there, if that which makes sense, 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.560 and I think it works to an extent, you know, like, 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:50.680 but also there's different strategies. 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:54.640 I know guys who are just like yeah and whatever. 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:55.360 That's also a strategy. 0:36:55.480 --> 0:36:56.640 Yeah, yeah, totally it is. 0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:59.719 But also I don't get done Like it's not like 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:03.120 you get random people from Google being like you should 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:04.840 hear the ship. I'm like, great, what do I do 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:05.160 with this? 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:06.600 Use it? Man? 0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:13.239 I have with other people and went by the way, 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.000 if I send you a story and you don't pick 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:20.120 it up. Some exceptions there, of course, I will remember 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:22.440 I'm not talking about anyone in this room, just to 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.759 be clear. But the thing is, I think that there 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.080 is a kind of a fallacy there, which is if 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:32.399 you don't have an opinion, if you're objective, people are 0:37:32.440 --> 0:37:34.719 still going to say you're not objective. They're still going 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:37.879 to be like, well, reading between the lines here, what 0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:40.440 you think is like, no, I wrote this, I know 0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:43.160 what I think, Well, why is it said this because 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:46.040 of the editor? And they're like, well, so they are 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:49.600 also in the pocket of China or someone else. And 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.839 it's just it it almost feels like there's not enough 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:55.560 solidarity between the tech media writ large, but also on 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:59.000 the editorial the higher editorial side. There's not really a 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:02.080 back the fucking or forever, right. 0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:04.839 I do think that putting each we all are very competitive, 0:38:04.960 --> 0:38:08.080 and like, one thing that actually really bothers me is 0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:11.480 when companies use this to their advantage and like play 0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:14.839 us off of each other, and like plant they know 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.040 X Person's about to write this, so they're going to 0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:21.640 go to why person and plant it, and or like god, 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:23.840 there's one person who I won't name, who does this 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:26.480 a lot and gets spun by a different company to 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:30.360 go after reporter stories, which is another great tactic that 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:33.920 companies use. But it's to your thing about like the 0:38:34.000 --> 0:38:36.759 solidarity and press should be more of a thing. 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:41.279 Well, so if someone is doing that, honestly the best thing. 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:42.640 And I know that no one would actually do this, 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.239 but I'm a gremlin, so I would. If I heard 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:48.239 that happening, I would just tell everyone. But that would 0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:49.520 that's the way to stop that. 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:51.680 That's how it all works. I don't think it's just 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:52.840 it's not just one person. 0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:53.799 It's how it all works. 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:56.640 Yeah, sure, yeah, the oppositional stuff. It's difficult. And I 0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:58.200 think the part of the reason I brought you in 0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:00.000 here was I kind of want the listeners to understan 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.640 than the chaos of this stuff and how multi lad 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:05.840 the problems are at the media face in tech because 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:10.200 it's such a weird time and it's you've got tech 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:15.479 crunch under new management. You've got fortune under basically old 0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:19.920 business inside of people at time a fortune. 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.880 Mink still owns fortune, right is that not even Jesus, 0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:26.279 let's get you up to dig. 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.719 Yeah, but that's the listeners. This is important to know. 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:31.440 These are lets are being built and. 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.200 Sold owns time now. 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:37.400 And by the way, did you too read the Time 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:42.320 And I'm doing air quotes listeners. Article about Ariana Huffington 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:44.400 and Sam Ormond's new health. 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.400 I didn't read it, now. How is that he really. 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:52.360 Liked it, Charlie Warzaw, I haven't finished the article, but 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:53.920 he like lee paragraph. 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:55.160 Have you read his read up? 0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:55.640 I have? 0:39:56.440 --> 0:39:59.719 Okay, I'm sorry of your opinions. Yeah, I read like 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.000 the for two paragraphs. It feels like he rips them. 0:40:02.640 --> 0:40:11.400 Yeah, paper Machette thinking of But it's good article and 0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:13.279 he also has a smart point about the belief and 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:16.719 I'll include links. Don't worry listeners, Jesus Christ. But the 0:40:16.760 --> 0:40:18.279 problem with that was was he was in front of 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:20.440 Sam Altman and asked him the limpest questions I've ever 0:40:20.440 --> 0:40:24.120 heard in my fucking life. Charlie, go for the fucking throat, 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:27.080 choke him out. Maybe he likes it, don't know. But 0:40:27.280 --> 0:40:30.480 it's this article, which was a press release. 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:32.879 Or something. 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.920 Yeah, dog shit, it was a joint written between Arianna 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:40.560 Huffington and Sam Ortman and the secret version of chat GBT. 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:43.840 That's even worse, and it just sucked. And it was 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.120 all of these made up things about how like AI 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.839 and healthcare will into play, and it was a disappointing 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:51.440 moment for me in the media. Though Charlie did a 0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:53.360 great job doing what he did, and there was a 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:55.120 guy at Slater also did a good job, but everyone 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:56.759 was just there was a bunch of other people just 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.840 reporting this thing, just blandly. And I don't think that 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:03.439 people realize how terrible it is for trust with the media, 0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:05.759 because what a normal person and I know, like I 0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:08.200 put a past plint my hairdresser and shit, like I'm like, 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:11.759 look at shit. And it was like regular people like, yeah, 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:16.200 this sounds fucking stupid. Yeah, But this whole financialization of 0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:19.239 the tech media, this whole situation where the money is 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:23.359 kind of controlling things. Is just leading to this point 0:41:23.400 --> 0:41:25.960 where these things are going past, and at some point 0:41:26.000 --> 0:41:28.400 I worry that we're going to have the equivalent of 0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:30.920 what's happened in politics. I say, this is someone who 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:33.080 will stand to benefit if this happens, So I apologize 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.680 to everyone. But the distrust in the media is going 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:38.040 to come to tech, and I think, and we'll get 0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:41.239 to it after the ad break coming up. The whole 0:41:41.239 --> 0:41:45.200 thing with CrowdStrike, for example, Everyone's kind of reporting what's happened, 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:48.239 but not why, and I think the why is what 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:52.880 people really need. Right now. Everyone's seen years years of 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.239 the tech industry kind of fall on its face and 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:58.120 break its dick off and look terrible everywhere, while also 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.080 being told these people are richer than ever while the 0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:05.000 products get worse. And I feel like we need as 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:07.960 the industry as the media industry, which I guess I'm 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:09.520 kind of in right. 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.320 You're fully in it. You have a podcast. 0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:16.880 It's just I don't think people realize at some point 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:19.600 a racist tech publication is going to pop up. Pirate 0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:21.920 Wires is not going to get be it because it's 0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:24.560 so poorly written. Do not read it is so bad 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:28.000 unless you want to laugh, and also turn on ad blocker, 0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:31.120 don't subscribe, don't give them any data. But at some 0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:36.880 point this whole techno fascist movement into the whole techno optimist, 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:39.640 which just means fascist when you're quoting Nick Lan, Fuck 0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:43.560 you andresen. But that's my opinion. I guess it just 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:45.839 feels like we're in this point where tech media needs 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:47.920 to grow up, grow up, or just grow in a 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:51.440 better direction, because otherwise there is going to be a 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:55.080 competitor and it's going to be so much worse. I'm 0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:58.640 just worried. I'm just a bit worried about the consequences 0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:01.560 of the lack of trust in media. It's gonna happen. 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:03.719 When are we gonna do something. 0:43:03.680 --> 0:43:06.640 Very curious if they can You remember Andrews and Horwitz 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:10.320 put that put publication together, Yeah yeah, and then it 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:14.520 no one published because like they really realized that, Like 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:17.640 I mean, getting people to write is hard, getting them 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:20.000 to like commit to do it and have like a 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:23.200 regular cadence on doing it, and like turn in your 0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:26.400 copy is hard, and like I think they. 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:28.520 Media is hard. Yeah, Like I think. 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:30.880 They got ahead of their schemes on that. Like people 0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:34.120 can riff or whatever, but like it's just I am 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.600 waiting to see what that looks like. And I think 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.040 that's why they bet so big on substack, because their 0:43:39.080 --> 0:43:41.440 whole thing is like, all right, if we don't do 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.400 an in house thing, then maybe we'll get a legion 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:46.359 of people to do it on their own, and then 0:43:46.480 --> 0:43:49.719 like they can sort of like aggregate that in like 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:54.319 however subtect does. But like, yeah, I'm I'm, I'm I'm 0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:58.479 wondering if it's like less an institutional publication and more 0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:02.640 like random bloggers who everyone sort of subscribes to and 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:06.080 to your point, like just sort of like a fasci 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:09.439 version of what tech coverage would look like becomes more 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:10.239 of a thing. 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:10.759 I don't know. 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:15.960 So let me ask you a question. What is a podcast? 0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:19.640 Miserable little pile of secrets? But nevertheless, how about you 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:31.080 have an ad break and we're back. We're back with 0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:34.720 Better Off Live episode two, which is like episode thirty 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:37.760 two of this show, Good Lord, And of course today 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:41.560 is the crowd strike situation, and there's an episode about it. 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:44.799 We'll get to it, but this feels like to me, 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:47.400 at least, we're not gonna get into the technicalities don't worry, 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:52.200 because I am certainly not prepared. Right with the crowd 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:54.839 strikes situation, it feels like the beginning of something more 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:58.080 than the end. It feels like the final punishment of 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:02.120 the move fast and break things generate. And my biggest worry, 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.160 and I raised this in the newsletter, is how do 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:07.840 people think this is going to improve? Because so the 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:10.840 very basic level is an update that went through CrowdStrike 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:13.759 that's in basically every Windows machine, especially the enterprise ones, 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:16.680 fucked everything up, did a massive kurdl panic and everything. Sure, 0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:18.600 by the time I say this, there's already a tweet 0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:21.280 out there that proves me wrong. But nevertheless, put it again. 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:22.239 On rad this is where we are. 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:25.600 It feels like we're in a situation where organizations just 0:45:25.719 --> 0:45:29.680 fire and hire people so goddamn much that this has 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:33.280 to happen again, Like there's something something like this is inevitable, 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:37.640 especially when you've got generative code, You've got more less 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:41.560 software engineers generating more code, and the people above and 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:44.959 below them are being fired at random. It's the first 0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:48.480 time I felt scared in this industry. And I moved 0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:49.839 to America in two thousand and eight. 0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:53.080 Wow, yeah, good time. 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:56.600 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.239 with it. And also I mean other than the three 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:03.240 thousand word news but it's I'm just a bit scared 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:05.480 because it feels like every tech company is wrung just 0:46:05.640 --> 0:46:08.200 in this very messy way, like they're still in the 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:10.160 startup mode but also huge. 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:14.359 I don't know if it like I don't know the thing. 0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:17.239 Maybe this is naive, but like I often like think 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:21.120 about things in the window of what is it called 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:24.520 Handlan's razor, which is like, don't attribute to malice, which 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:28.239 could be more often chalked up to stupidity or incompetence, right, 0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:30.799 And like I feel like there to be clear, there 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.200 are very many bad people in the world doing bad things, 0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:35.719 but like a lot of the time it's just like 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:40.160 dumb shit. Someone pushed like a thing to production instead 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:43.200 of the test code environment or whatever, and now you 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.160 took down half the fucking world. 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:49.680 Right, So like I don't I don't know. 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:52.560 I don't know if that's like better or worse than 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:54.080 people maliciously doing things. 0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:56.600 But if I'm sound it, I don't think someone at 0:46:56.640 --> 0:47:00.560 CrowdStrike was like, right, I'm gonna crash every window computer. 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:05.200 Excellent bit that would be I mean a good bit. Yeah, yeah, 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.600 just to see what I was doing a bit. No, 0:47:07.760 --> 0:47:10.840 I think that the problem is Hanlan's razor here is 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:13.640 that just tech companies like we must grow, we must grow, 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:18.320 and if something breaks, will fix it. Right Mmm, totally, 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:21.080 except they don't seem to have fixed it yet still broken, 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:22.640 might still stuck at the airport. 0:47:24.280 --> 0:47:26.839 I'm glad you flew in early, I guess, yeah, and I. 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.080 Was nearly delayed due to thunder in Vegas. I don't know. 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:33.200 But also this feels like a situation where the tech 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:35.040 media is going to have trouble covering it because it's 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:36.279 so complex. 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:38.479 Yeah, I bout out early this morning. 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:40.520 Yeah, I don't know. 0:47:40.600 --> 0:47:44.120 I no, I mean, I do think that's where tech reporters, 0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:47.960 if they're super into it, can like shine. And I 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:52.000 don't think cybersecurity reporting is like as much of a 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:56.240 specialty at mainstream publications. It's like like it's like random, 0:47:56.360 --> 0:47:59.680 Like the guy Brian Krebs is like his independent dude 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.200 who he used to work at the Post but now 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:04.960 he's just a hardcore security researcher guy who has his 0:48:05.040 --> 0:48:09.120 own blog and everyone in the security industry trust him. Basically, 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:13.839 and like but yeah, like that, I mean, yeah, yes, 0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:18.440 who's great Joe Cox, Joe is awesome. Uh So, like you, 0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:21.040 there's a version of this that could shine. But I 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:25.760 think you're I'm very curious. There are already like things 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:28.840 blaming well, actually you might have a different take on this. 0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:32.760 There are things that are blaming Microsoft that are uh 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:35.400 there was like a headline that was like Microsoft fucks 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:37.600 up the whole world or whatever, right right, and like, 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:42.520 technically it wasn't their fault, but your your position is 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:44.040 ultimately it is their. 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:48.120 Fault, yes, because they Microsoft runs Windows. But also the 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:51.400 reason the CrowdStrike managed to fuck up so much is 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:55.440 because Microsoft could have built this themselves and indeed have 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:58.840 a competing product, a Falcon. There was a whole exlusive 0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:02.400 explanation for that, but it kind of sucks, and they 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:03.759 were like, we could save money just giving it to 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.680 this other giant public company who was only worth eighty 0:49:06.719 --> 0:49:10.560 nine billion, and is both of their thoughts, but this 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:13.719 is a situation where and what was it I was 0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:17.560 reading the other day We just had him on the show, 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:20.600 an economist called Darren Usimoglu. I'm probably saying his name wrong. 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:23.719 Mit just interviewed him. I should know it better by now, 0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:26.160 it's been a long day down but he said that 0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:31.239 there should be criminal prosecution. CEOs will actually fully fucking agree. Yeah, 0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:33.719 I know this sounds crazy, but if you break half 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:36.800 the world's computers, you should go to fucking prison. Satcha 0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:43.239 in cuffs today, hot take to have sounds hit that 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:49.680 I'm only fifty percent joking because if your direct decisions 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:51.719 and neither I know both of you don't want to 0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:52.279 touch this with. 0:49:52.239 --> 0:49:54.800 A we can talk about it in an abstract. 0:49:55.000 --> 0:49:58.160 But also just giving it making it clear that I 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:01.279 can say the crazy shit. But it feels like that aren't. 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:04.040 And Duron's argument is not put them all in chains. 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:07.719 It's these consequences should exist. 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:09.520 And consequences should exist. 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:13.319 Yes, the back of them is why these things keep happening. Because, Okay, 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:16.560 an FDC find that finds Facebook four billion dollars is 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:21.040 bad for the homogenous lump. That is meta, but it 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:23.600 isn't like Mark Zuckerberg has any fear there. 0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:26.960 And it was pretty good when he had apologized to 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:28.400 the families stood up in court. 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.680 But I don't think that's real consequence, you know. 0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:35.680 Slightly embarrassing for the man without feelings and it's it's 0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:39.000 just Sachy Nadella should have a criminal a criminal inquiry here. 0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:42.279 There should be an actual Department of Justice investigation into this. 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:46.480 With both CrowdStrike and Microsoft, there will not be. I 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:48.440 had one hundred percent of they might be a Senate 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:51.640 hearing if we're lay. But it's all of these CEOs. 0:50:51.680 --> 0:50:55.160 They operate in this weird kind of bubble where oh, 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.320 it's a corporate thing. We don't get angry at people 0:50:57.360 --> 0:51:01.360 for corporate things. But if I went around because I 0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:03.839 was the Flash I assume, and smashed every like five 0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:06.360 hundred thousand computers with a big crow bar, if they 0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:09.239 could catch me, but I'm the Flash, they couldn't. They 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:12.640 would put me in jail. Have to be I don't know. 0:51:13.080 --> 0:51:15.040 I'm talking about the raft from Spider Man of mixing 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:17.560 up my Marvel and DC right now. But nevertheless, it's 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:19.960 like this person who smashed a bunch of computers would 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.240 go to jail, but the person who's direct decision making 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:25.680 was the reason that all of these computers went down, 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:30.479 they're fine. And it's like, it feels like that needs 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:32.560 to have there needs to be some regulation of this. 0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:36.320 But also where are the consequences. It's why Sam Altman's 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:39.640 accumulated all this power, it's why all of these Steve 0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:44.000 Jobs horrible man, but he the crimes he committed that. Well, 0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:47.200 the California DA came after him for welfare. That was 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:49.840 a form of consequence, and it was extremely effective. He 0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:52.479 went from being a deadbeat father to a shitty one, 0:51:52.800 --> 0:51:57.400 which is progress from mister Jobs. And it's just what 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:00.680 I'm very much trundling towards is it doesn't feel anything's 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:02.880 gonna change as a results of this, right. 0:52:03.280 --> 0:52:04.000 I think that's right. 0:52:04.120 --> 0:52:09.080 I think that the fines point is really important because 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:12.000 I think they just price it into their budget. 0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:15.720 You know, there was a great Times article about training 0:52:15.800 --> 0:52:19.120 data and how these like meta executives in their boardroom were. 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:21.080 Like, we that was so good. I talk about it 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:22.440 all the time. These have you seen this? 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.280 I have not these meta executives in their boardroom or wherever. 0:52:25.400 --> 0:52:28.480 They were like, we need training data and we don't 0:52:28.480 --> 0:52:30.440 care if we breaked a law because we need to 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:30.920 be first. 0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:34.680 And it's so explicit, like we don't care. It's priced in. 0:52:34.920 --> 0:52:35.560 We need to be. 0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:38.680 First, and we don't care if we're stealing content, which 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:39.160 is crazy. 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:43.319 And I will say this, that's where The Times did 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:44.120 their job the best. 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:46.280 That was a really great article people, But the fact. 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:48.200 I didn't read it is my fault. But also that 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:51.120 should have been fucking CNBC TV every day. That should 0:52:51.120 --> 0:52:53.239 have been a bigger story. The fact that these companies 0:52:53.239 --> 0:52:57.120 can operate not just without concern for safety, but basically 0:52:57.160 --> 0:52:59.840 being like, oh, it's not a fine, it's a fee. 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:04.040 M it's insane. But if Mark Zkapa could go to prison, 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:07.120 I mean I wouldn't lost a day. 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:09.040 I do think a lot of the. 0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:15.640 I have frustrations just because of how I wonder how 0:53:16.239 --> 0:53:19.200 deep you can go in a mainstream publication on pretty 0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:24.680 technical stuff before losing people, and like even like i've uh, 0:53:25.719 --> 0:53:29.359 I've been super interested in the open source debate, which is, like, 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:31.960 you know, in short, just like should all the code 0:53:32.000 --> 0:53:32.920 for these things. 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:33.360 Be out there or not? 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:35.960 Some people believe it's very dangerous, some people are I 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:38.080 think that's over exaggerating it. 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:41.279 I don't I don't know which one is. 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:43.239 Right, by the way, is why I've not done an 0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:45.960 open source episode, right, I don't know, And. 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:51.120 Yeah, well it's yeah, and like I find that whole 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:53.480 thing very interesting, and like I've been trying to write 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:57.040 about it a lot, but like I'm like, a lot 0:53:57.080 --> 0:54:00.439 of this ship is very dense and very and heart 0:54:00.520 --> 0:54:03.960 not just for and there's no like actual answers to 0:54:04.040 --> 0:54:06.080 a lot of it and trying to like get that 0:54:06.200 --> 0:54:11.640 out to a mainstream audience while saying, here's why it's important, 0:54:11.640 --> 0:54:13.120 here's why you should care about it, here's why you 0:54:13.120 --> 0:54:15.000 should read this article in the first place. I think 0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:19.759 gets stopped a lot of the time compared to some 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:21.680 things that might be easier to grasp. 0:54:21.719 --> 0:54:24.040 But I don't, you know, and that's not to insult 0:54:24.040 --> 0:54:24.760 the general public. 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:28.520 It's just sort of like these things that require a 0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:31.840 lot of attention and reading just to like break into 0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:33.680 where the argument starts. 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:36.759 I've been cut I don't know how many times from 0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:40.359 writing articles because they're too technical or and a thing 0:54:40.400 --> 0:54:41.560 I've had to do lately. 0:54:41.320 --> 0:54:42.200 Which is so funny. 0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:44.960 I'm like, okay, if it's really highly technical or just 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:47.000 kind of a waste of space, like tokens, how much 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:50.239 does this model cost for input output tokens? And I 0:54:50.239 --> 0:54:52.080 didn't include it in a Verge article recently, and the 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:54.600 comments were like, well, how much does it cost? I 0:54:54.640 --> 0:54:57.440 was like, God, durmit guys, so I replied, I was like, 0:54:57.480 --> 0:54:59.319 I will add it next time, but like, who cares 0:54:59.360 --> 0:55:00.480 about the tokens anyways. 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.279 I actually see where the readers are coming from. 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.520 If they want it, I want to deliver it to them. 0:55:05.520 --> 0:55:07.440 But if they don't want it and it takes up 0:55:07.840 --> 0:55:10.400 space in their mind and they can't comprehend the material, 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:12.920 then it's not helpful. So like figuring that out for 0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:14.960 readers can be hard well. 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:17.279 So as someone went, like the average better offline and 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:19.719 listener is like most of their days taking up like 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:23.960 holding people up at gas stations, stealing Catholic converters stuff 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:31.600 in that and these people, I'm so sorry. But what 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:34.319 I've found is because my listeners are because of I 0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:36.640 think iHeartRadio because of the way they is. I get 0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:40.080 a lot of people who aren't the traditional listeners, and 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:42.200 I do love them. And you don't steal Catholic converts 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:43.239 unless you do. 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:44.759 And shout out them. 0:55:45.480 --> 0:55:47.120 Shout out to the wrong. 0:55:47.000 --> 0:55:51.600 Uns are cadmium. 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:53.719 It's it's what I'm funny is that people actually want 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:57.760 things explained more, even the technical stuff. Robert Evans, Surphie 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:01.200 Lichten and wonderful people run calls. The all thing is 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:04.320 to like break it down. Whatever you think is too simple, 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:08.840 go simpler. And I think people in the media for 0:56:08.920 --> 0:56:14.839 good reason overestimate how difficult something is to get. And 0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:18.839 I because when you start explaining stuff and planning, it's 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:22.160 just like tokens, for example, very confusing and offuscated things. 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:25.520 But it's just isn't it just one token? A word? 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:28.319 Yeah, exactly, a character? So it is it's it is 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:31.040 very simple. But how many times do I explain that 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:34.440 per article? Every time? I'm like these you know, it's 0:56:34.680 --> 0:56:36.520 kind of a it's like algebra that you have to 0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:39.000 do when you write so many of these articles. If 0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:41.120 the audience wants me to do it, that's you know, 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:42.759 that's what I told them. I will do it. But 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:45.600 it's you know, something Weinberger told me is like, if 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:48.440 you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it, 0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:51.000 you know. And I think about that all the time 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:52.759 because I feel like I see that all the time 0:56:53.160 --> 0:56:56.440 with tech reporters. No shade is that like you're seeing 0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:59.200 something really complicated, probably because you don't understand it. And 0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:02.120 that's fine, but it's really it's really hard to break 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:03.440 these complex topics. 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:05.439 Down early days of the newsletter. I'm just gonna admit 0:57:05.520 --> 0:57:06.240 that definitely happened. 0:57:06.280 --> 0:57:07.840 I did that when I was a young reporter. I 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:09.080 still am a young reporter, but. 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:13.200 Still still though it's and I think it's because it's 0:57:13.239 --> 0:57:15.160 just media is kind of hot and take. You do 0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:17.160 actually have to understand a lot of shit. Y Yeah, 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:19.760 like especially with the general Avai I said. And it's 0:57:19.800 --> 0:57:22.160 funny because as much I bang on about people not 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:25.800 doing it right, it is extremely annoying to explain yes. 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:26.400 Every single time. 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.080 It feels like you have to include so much context 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:30.960 and it's like when is this helpful for the reader 0:57:31.040 --> 0:57:34.000 and not kind of like X formerly Twitter all the 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:36.440 readers really please just stop saying formally, Twitter. 0:57:37.040 --> 0:57:41.160 Stop my epic based website, Please stop stop dead naming. 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:42.200 I do feel like. 0:57:42.200 --> 0:57:47.360 It's it's very I think they're a different challenges. 0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:49.680 Okay, Like I'll explain it just in terms of like 0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:52.640 the Times challenge, which is like who are you trying 0:57:52.680 --> 0:57:56.880 to reach? Who's reading this? Uh, what is the like 0:57:57.000 --> 0:57:59.800 format for what you're writing sort of thing? And like 0:58:00.600 --> 0:58:03.680 I I like to what you were saying, I definitely 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:08.320 don't I think readers are can be smart and curious 0:58:08.320 --> 0:58:12.160 about what's happening in the world, and I don't think 0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:14.600 treating them like idiots is the right way to go. 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:17.520 I do think it's like, how do you present that 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:20.320 in a way that doesn't either derail the story you're 0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:23.640 trying to tell or make your story three times longer 0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:26.360 than it might need to be, or whatever, which I 0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:30.280 think as like a tangent like length is often equated 0:58:30.320 --> 0:58:31.960 with quality, which I don't think. 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:32.800 Is always the case. 0:58:32.960 --> 0:58:36.240 Yeah, Oh, I think in the media industry, like someone's like, 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:38.240 we dropped a five thousand word piece, and I'm like, eh, 0:58:38.280 --> 0:58:40.520 I think they could be like a two thousand word 0:58:40.600 --> 0:58:43.600 piece throught that, but like, and that's not always a case, 0:58:43.640 --> 0:58:46.840 but like, I just think that you can probably do 0:58:46.920 --> 0:58:50.560 it in different like formats or different like story packaging 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:54.400 ways that that I don't know that and but it's 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:56.280 like a challenge for me constantly because I'm like, all right, 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:58.720 who am I talking to? Am I talking to someone 0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:02.440 in New York who is never used a computer? Or 0:59:02.480 --> 0:59:05.760 am I talking to like someone in the valley who's like, 0:59:06.240 --> 0:59:08.640 don't explain this to me for the fifteenth time, And 0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:09.200 I don't know. 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.480 It's every time I don't explain something, one of the 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:15.640 listeners I assume, in between holding a knife to a 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:20.160 granny is will be like, you didn't explain that clearly enough, 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:22.560 And actually I like that. I like explaining it because 0:59:22.600 --> 0:59:25.360 also this whole thing about like word counts, I do 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:27.560 not have that problem with my newsletter. I put on 0:59:27.840 --> 0:59:29.440 even thousand words. 0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:32.600 Just like just like completely go at it. 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:34.800 Yeah, just fuck it. But also people get so. 0:59:34.760 --> 0:59:38.600 Angry when they're like Jesus christad in all. 0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:40.520 The funniest one was I did like a four thousand 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:43.720 word one and someone sent me an email being like, yeah, 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:46.040 that was too long, And the next one was eleven 0:59:46.080 --> 0:59:46.800 thousand words and. 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:52.400 Relationship your audio, I know. 0:59:56.520 --> 0:59:59.720 He was planning to bomb. 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:03.320 A bank, like thousand words quickly. 1:00:04.160 --> 1:00:05.280 Yeah, this helpd me up. 1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:07.800 Your general if a I think was a great soundtrack 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:10.240 to me chasing a man down the street with a hatshit. 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:11.200 I'm so sorry. 1:00:11.280 --> 1:00:16.120 I know you guys on all criminals, just a large majority. 1:00:16.120 --> 1:00:20.480 Maybe it's funny because you've really crystalized the problem here, 1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:22.960 which is what the fuck does the tech media actually do? 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:26.400 Like what is the actual job here? And it doesn't 1:00:26.400 --> 1:00:28.880 even feel like the various bulkanized outlets. 1:00:29.360 --> 1:00:32.000 No, can I say what I think it is? I 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:32.360 don't know. 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:34.400 I am the most junior person in this room. Let 1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:38.080 me say extremely good thank you. But I think you 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:41.160 do more work than I do, so you guys, But 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:43.800 I think like what I want to do is bring 1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:47.480 information that they want or didn't have, like love a 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:50.600 good scoop, Like, look, I'm giving you information you've never seen, 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:51.760 and I want to give it to you in a 1:00:51.800 --> 1:00:54.919 way that's like that's helping you understand the world better. 1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:56.480 And that's kind of why I joined The Verge too, 1:00:56.520 --> 1:00:59.920 because they had like crazy multimedia team and I really, 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.760 I really love podcasts because it's an easy way for 1:01:02.760 --> 1:01:04.520 me to consume stuff. And I think there's a younger 1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:08.320 generation who is not consuming stuff like you know, five 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:11.520 thousand words. So like, however, you can get that information 1:01:11.640 --> 1:01:14.120 to people to help them, you know, whether it's podcasts 1:01:14.240 --> 1:01:17.479 or you know, newsletters, any of that, I think that's 1:01:17.640 --> 1:01:18.400 our job. 1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:21.840 Yeah yeah, look on oh, I. 1:01:21.840 --> 1:01:24.800 Was like, I fully agree. I think the thing that 1:01:24.920 --> 1:01:29.280 I really enjoy too is just like it makes me 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:34.600 feel good when someone who may be like intelligent but 1:01:34.960 --> 1:01:38.720 unfamiliar with a topic came away from a piece that 1:01:39.000 --> 1:01:41.080 I wrote and says that was interesting. 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.560 I probably wouldn't have read about that before. 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:46.360 But like now, I like, even if I don't dig 1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:48.880 it into it anymore, I enjoyed reading about that. Yeah, 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:51.920 you know, and like that's ideal for me, just in 1:01:52.000 --> 1:01:54.560 some form of like why are we doing this? 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:55.680 Why are we doing this? 1:01:56.040 --> 1:01:56.320 Yeah? 1:01:56.360 --> 1:01:58.560 And I think it can be really corroded by so 1:01:58.640 --> 1:02:02.640 many things, money and egos and like any other business, 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:04.320 And that's what I think we see, like kind of 1:02:04.320 --> 1:02:05.960 that pressure at the top for a lot of us 1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:08.479 journalists and maybe why they're really tired. But I think, 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:11.320 you know, the best journalists really just want to do 1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:13.680 their job for the reader the best that they can. 1:02:13.880 --> 1:02:16.320 You know, it's not but it's not easy, and we're tired. 1:02:18.240 --> 1:02:19.520 We need more fucking nerds. 1:02:19.920 --> 1:02:21.600 We do need more nerds. 1:02:21.760 --> 1:02:22.439 I agree with that. 1:02:22.480 --> 1:02:26.600 We need more little goblin freaks like myself like that. 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:35.040 Yeah, And it's enough about my festival for nerding out 1:02:35.080 --> 1:02:36.960 on this stuff is good, Like it's just like you 1:02:37.400 --> 1:02:39.200 understand the topic, you want to get in the weeds 1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:39.440 of it. 1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:40.120 That's a good thing. 1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:43.880 But also a list that is in between brewing poisons, 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:53.120 they love it though, and the crimes explained of your audience. No, 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.160 but in no serious my non criminal listeners and indeeds 1:02:56.160 --> 1:02:59.400 some of the criminals. They like the fact that so 1:02:59.440 --> 1:03:01.120 my last Step episode that went out and it's a 1:03:01.160 --> 1:03:04.600 weird timeline when I'm recording this. But the episode that 1:03:04.640 --> 1:03:06.919 I think really changed my show was did you read 1:03:06.960 --> 1:03:08.880 this paper? Chat GBT is bullshit? 1:03:09.200 --> 1:03:09.439 Now? 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:11.600 It s there's this paper by these three academics in 1:03:11.640 --> 1:03:15.640 Glasgow called chat gbt's bullshit? But it's based on the 1:03:15.680 --> 1:03:19.880 Frank thirty and definition from on bullshit defined bullshits. Oh 1:03:19.880 --> 1:03:22.480 I remember that, and so I cannot remember what the 1:03:22.520 --> 1:03:25.520 definition is. Just bullshitting myself, I guess. And I get 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:27.920 on the call thinking this is going to be like 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:30.960 three starchy academics and they're cracking beers and they're having 1:03:31.000 --> 1:03:32.840 a good time and we had the funniest chat for 1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:34.840 an hour and I came out there being like, it's 1:03:34.880 --> 1:03:37.680 one of the best episodes ever. But also I think 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:40.960 people want more of that. In take, everyone knows the 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:43.560 Opening Eye is fucking everything up. Everyone's going to know 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:46.200 about the crowd strike situation. Everyone's going to know all 1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:49.680 of these things, and they're all dominated by bad news, 1:03:49.680 --> 1:03:53.160 good news, weird news. But we need to get back. 1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:58.120 We need to get back to talking about the weird 1:03:58.160 --> 1:04:01.640 shit again because of me earlier stuff Kylie. In business 1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:03.160 you were talking to weird random device. 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:04.280 I loved it so much. 1:04:04.320 --> 1:04:08.280 I went into weird communities. And I think the tech 1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:11.880 right now is saturated by stories about everything and everyone 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.360 for good reason. By the way, just with sympathy here 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:18.160 there is everyone wants it, everyone wants the traffic. You 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:20.920 have to write, Kylie about the jupt for Minie like 1:04:21.240 --> 1:04:25.360 h Everyone has to cover these things because it's your beat, 1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:29.840 but it's getting in the way of the weird fun shit. 1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:32.200 Like I ran a pr from at day job and 1:04:32.200 --> 1:04:35.320 I write like eighteen thousand letter words I don't know, 1:04:35.560 --> 1:04:38.880 can't speak newsletters every week. I should not be the 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:41.000 one finding the weird shit and talking to them. I am, though, 1:04:41.040 --> 1:04:44.200 because I'm paid to. But I just feel like there's 1:04:44.240 --> 1:04:47.080 so much magic in this industry. There's so much like 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:49.480 as doom and gloom as I can be on this show. 1:04:50.240 --> 1:04:53.280 The joy of sending a weird picture of some dumb 1:04:53.360 --> 1:04:57.840 shit I found on Twitter to someone on someone yesterday, 1:04:57.840 --> 1:05:01.320 it was this picture of doctor Robotnik in a forklift 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.720 it said, you're too late, Sonic. I'm for Forklift certified, 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:10.280 and that made my day. It's still magic to the Internet, 1:05:10.360 --> 1:05:12.680 and there's still fun and people are fucking mad about 1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:15.280 the Internet, but they're still such good in there. People 1:05:15.320 --> 1:05:20.720 are always saying, in between reading the Unibomber's manifesto, my 1:05:20.840 --> 1:05:27.520 listeners will say I got something there. I don't know 1:05:27.600 --> 1:05:31.840 if I want to know, but in between various crimes, 1:05:31.880 --> 1:05:36.480 just gonna summarize that. My listeners, they also will say 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:41.920 I want something positive, and then I respond, I'm sorry, 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:47.760 you need to find you download another podcast. I'd say 1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:48.840 download it all in. 1:05:48.760 --> 1:05:51.000 But too far, too far. 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:59.680 Jason Jason calacanis very damp anyway, dampness aside. The positivity 1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:02.600 is that and I myself have found myself falling into 1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:04.480 this kind of I don't want to say doomerism because 1:06:04.480 --> 1:06:06.560 I think it's a fucking stupid term, but the doom 1:06:06.560 --> 1:06:08.560 and gloom that everything, and we do need to cover 1:06:08.600 --> 1:06:11.680 these companies messing up. But I think what the problem 1:06:11.800 --> 1:06:13.360 is and where my anger comes from, and I think 1:06:13.400 --> 1:06:17.360 you'll share this is all of the bad stuff's getting 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.480 in a way of some really funny shit TikTok and 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:23.680 all of this needless cinophobia. But like, yeah, it's like 1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:26.120 we've got to ban TikTok because they're stealing data. They're 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:29.440 like using data with our our users. We only let 1:06:29.480 --> 1:06:30.560 American companies do. 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:31.960 That, right. 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:34.480 TikTok has given birth to some of the funniest and 1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:38.000 sweetest posts. There is a growing community of zoos on 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:41.160 TikTok and Instagram, whereas just they put like a camera 1:06:41.240 --> 1:06:45.720 on a spoon and I feel like worms to and 1:06:45.760 --> 1:06:49.520 it's like there is still magic, there's still joy within 1:06:49.600 --> 1:06:52.960 this industry. And I think that the return to blogging 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:56.800 that I am so sivorously suggesting and the wider head 1:06:56.880 --> 1:07:00.000 zychron empire that I dream of one day is genuinely 1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:02.479 like a return to this, a return to this kind 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:06.000 of not seeing the movie. It's a return to this 1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:09.640 thing where we kind of need to stop mining this 1:07:09.680 --> 1:07:12.160 shit again. We need to get back to finding the 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:15.560 quirky little startups that might die but they're doing something interesting. Yeah, 1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:17.920 the weird I think less the meme stuff. I do 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:19.720 think people who just cover memes all day should get 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:23.360 real job. Sorry, Uh, someone's gonna be angry at that. 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:27.280 I get it, but like there's about Internet culture and 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:29.880 more just about the things being built there the course, 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:32.160 the fact that you've still got a shit ton of 1:07:32.200 --> 1:07:35.040 open source software people who are just like. One of 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:39.560 my early joys in tech was PlayStation portable and the 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:43.880 PlayStation Vita and the homebrew communities on them. Ray Wong, 1:07:44.080 --> 1:07:47.600 formerly of Imbers got laidoffs. Bullshit. Ray Wong's great. He 1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:49.320 was talking to me the other day about the PlayStation 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:52.320 portaborn hacking that thing. It was so much fun, the 1:07:52.360 --> 1:07:57.800 earlier iPhones with Sita, the helm brewing community, and I 1:07:57.840 --> 1:08:00.240 remember g O Hot has now become a very weird guy. 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:03.240 I mean he was before. Oh he did like an 1:08:03.280 --> 1:08:07.320 autonomous cast start up. Okay, but these, I feel like 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:11.160 are the more worthy stories than everyone pursuing the same thing. 1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:13.080 And I again, you're in a weird position. 1:08:13.120 --> 1:08:15.720 I get No, I do think that there's an element 1:08:15.920 --> 1:08:18.800 of I mean, honestly, there's corollaries and tech of like 1:08:19.360 --> 1:08:22.360 oh this person dropped this story or like this is 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:26.680 I mean, Twitter and media probably played into it for 1:08:26.760 --> 1:08:30.760 a while, but like I heard mentality, mentality around what 1:08:30.760 --> 1:08:33.360 people should be caring about or writing about, and like 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:38.519 that actually like even though I have a I guess 1:08:38.520 --> 1:08:40.360 I have a beat, but also like I get away 1:08:40.400 --> 1:08:42.040 with pitching a lot of non beat stuff. 1:08:42.080 --> 1:08:45.519 But I think the the thing that. 1:08:47.520 --> 1:08:49.920 Maybe that keeps it interesting for me, but also I 1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:53.439 think can probably help just my job and maybe my 1:08:53.560 --> 1:08:56.599 career is like trying to zag when other people are 1:08:56.640 --> 1:09:00.640 going after zigging or whatever line it's very is that, 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:07.120 oh god, I sound awful, really like genuinely watch where 1:09:07.120 --> 1:09:10.840 everyone's going and then like go pursue not just for 1:09:10.880 --> 1:09:13.240 the sake of it, but because there's something interesting there, 1:09:13.280 --> 1:09:17.439 you know, And like I think that can really it 1:09:17.439 --> 1:09:19.920 can distinguish you just from a career perspective, but also 1:09:20.080 --> 1:09:23.519 just like find like shit that's different, because people get 1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:27.080 tired of like reading the same yeah, the same article 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:29.360 from five different publications that are saying the same thing. 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:30.759 Yeah, no, totally. 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:34.040 The reason I know ed and Weinberger shout out is 1:09:34.080 --> 1:09:36.639 because I tweeted when I was in college I want 1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:39.640 to read about weird software developer culture shit, and then 1:09:39.720 --> 1:09:41.519 he hired me that way, and then that's when I 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:44.880 wrote a bunch of I wrote a bunch of weird shit. 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:49.080 I wrote about furries. That was awesome. Yeah, I love 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:50.720 those like niche communities. 1:09:50.920 --> 1:09:53.760 Oh my first article, one of my first articles was 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:55.960 about tech talk. So it was just like all of 1:09:56.000 --> 1:10:00.679 these technologists. It was a bunch of develop helpers who 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.360 like software developers who make informational or like parody tiktoks 1:10:04.400 --> 1:10:07.760 about software development. It was very tech talk, Yes, tech 1:10:07.800 --> 1:10:10.519 talk like TikTok. It was actually in my pitch like 1:10:10.560 --> 1:10:14.879 when I was my my exam. When you get hired. Anyways, 1:10:15.040 --> 1:10:17.120 Uh yeah, I think that's really important to find those 1:10:17.479 --> 1:10:18.480 like fun stories. 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:23.640 Well, and like I, I, I imagine everyone in this 1:10:23.760 --> 1:10:26.719 room and maybe if you are really into caring about tech, 1:10:26.840 --> 1:10:30.679 probably there was probably at least some time and maybe 1:10:30.720 --> 1:10:33.439 still now like where you enjoyed being a part of 1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:36.439 it or enjoyed understanding it or right like I, I 1:10:36.560 --> 1:10:40.439 definitely consider myself like a nerd at heart and like 1:10:40.520 --> 1:10:43.920 grew up building computers. I don't know if I could 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.479 do it now, but like I used to and like it. 1:10:46.760 --> 1:10:48.479 I'm sure it is, like I'm sure with like even 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:51.440 more now with fucking YouTube's the youtubes. 1:10:51.040 --> 1:10:54.120 That are but a double past is just that me? 1:10:54.520 --> 1:10:56.639 Was that say again, thermble pace you could just get 1:10:57.200 --> 1:10:57.920 could you have it? 1:10:58.040 --> 1:10:58.320 Just like. 1:11:00.360 --> 1:11:03.000 Ummy, but like there has to be an element of 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:06.519 like caring about this stuff, enjoying this stuff, Like there's 1:11:06.560 --> 1:11:10.360 a reason why I still enjoy fucking around on the internet, 1:11:10.560 --> 1:11:14.920 Like like, yes, there's I have criticisms of maybe like 1:11:16.040 --> 1:11:22.360 the homogenization of how products develop because other companies are 1:11:22.400 --> 1:11:25.120 looking at how this person is doing it and we 1:11:25.120 --> 1:11:27.400 should have to do it like that. But you can 1:11:27.439 --> 1:11:30.120 still have fun on there and you can still find stuff, 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:33.519 and like I agree that, like trying to find more 1:11:33.560 --> 1:11:35.160 of that is not a. 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:36.479 Bad thing totally. 1:11:36.640 --> 1:11:36.800 You know. 1:11:36.880 --> 1:11:39.200 I think The Times is going to bring back bits. 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:41.880 Dude. That's where I started in twenty Do you know 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:45.160 what bits is? Oh dude, twenty joined twenty fourteen, and 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:50.440 we used to have long before my gosh, ten years 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:52.040 in June it was ten years. 1:11:53.240 --> 1:11:55.559 I'm a millennial, so I should be hopping around jobs. 1:11:55.600 --> 1:11:57.240 But it's good. 1:11:58.080 --> 1:11:58.320 I know. 1:11:58.400 --> 1:12:00.640 I know now I can't leave, but I but we 1:12:00.760 --> 1:12:02.680 It was a blog. It was literally The Times had 1:12:02.720 --> 1:12:07.400 a tech blog called Bits and it was it was 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:10.960 kind of a function of like everyone's blogging at the time, 1:12:11.160 --> 1:12:13.360 and like, you know, we need to be blogging. And 1:12:13.840 --> 1:12:17.040 I'm not sure they got rid of it because I'm not. 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:19.840 I don't really know why. The exact reason is probably 1:12:19.880 --> 1:12:22.960 because it doesn't they Yeah, I think now. 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:26.599 I think now it's like and even now they're still 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:28.479 in like a transition period where they're like, we do 1:12:28.680 --> 1:12:32.200 either huge heaves or now they do like live blogs 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:35.800 on like the big breaking thing they do, and like 1:12:35.880 --> 1:12:38.760 this sort of in between sort of. 1:12:38.760 --> 1:12:40.559 Things are going away, is what i'd say. 1:12:40.600 --> 1:12:44.120 The like, yeah, five hundred to seven hundred word articles 1:12:44.160 --> 1:12:47.639 they don't care about as much. And there's probably internet 1:12:47.720 --> 1:12:50.839 traffic reasons for that. There's probably just like what readers 1:12:50.920 --> 1:12:54.280 want from a Times article. But Bits was amazing because 1:12:54.280 --> 1:12:55.799 it was a blog where I could just dump random 1:12:55.800 --> 1:12:58.679 shit that I that we found interesting and bits. 1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:00.559 And the funny thing is, I'm sure of the arguments 1:13:00.600 --> 1:13:04.479 that be well real reporting. That's where we get right 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:08.040 except if you remember, and I do because I'm nine 1:13:08.120 --> 1:13:12.479 hundred years old in like Mike's age, there was this 1:13:12.520 --> 1:13:15.920 little guy called Evan Spiegel who Nick Bilton, in a 1:13:15.960 --> 1:13:19.439 remarkable act of journalism, wrote about for the first time 1:13:19.479 --> 1:13:22.240 in Bits. It was like one of the first one 1:13:22.240 --> 1:13:25.559 of the first Snapchat articles. Wasn't bits that's funny and 1:13:25.600 --> 1:13:28.120 It's like, guess what, when you have that flexibility, when 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:30.000 you have a bit of fun with it, you find 1:13:30.640 --> 1:13:35.519 weird little NEPO baby freaks who make insanely unprofitable software. 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:39.559 Being an asshole here obviously, but that is an example 1:13:39.560 --> 1:13:41.439 I think where the verge can do well. The Virtus 1:13:41.479 --> 1:13:43.040 also had one of my favorite articles of all the time, 1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:44.759 which is one about the Internet cables. 1:13:45.160 --> 1:13:47.400 Oh my gosh, yes, yes, that was before I started. 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:47.920 That was so good. 1:13:47.920 --> 1:13:50.679 Didn't get back to me what I mean, very very hurtful, 1:13:50.760 --> 1:13:54.280 very unfair. I actually forget his name and will now 1:13:54.360 --> 1:13:57.040 look it up like when I'm talking. But it but 1:13:57.200 --> 1:13:59.360 stories like that, But that one's slightly different because that 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:02.400 was a heavily report. So yeah, but it was good 1:14:02.400 --> 1:14:05.680 because it was dear. It's a bit weird. Yeah, I 1:14:05.840 --> 1:14:08.759 want and I hope someone does a story about an airport, 1:14:08.800 --> 1:14:11.400 like a regional airport that got shut down by CrowdStrike. 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:13.080 Oh yeah, look something like that. 1:14:13.120 --> 1:14:14.160 Free story idea right. 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:16.880 There, free story is Actually it's pretty good. 1:14:17.160 --> 1:14:21.200 Go for it please, because it's like that is what 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:24.479 the big failure I think of the tech media. The 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:27.559 biggest is assuming that tech is not and Taylor Renz 1:14:27.600 --> 1:14:29.200 made this point as well, that tech is not. 1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:31.240 Real life, that it's not a human problem. 1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:33.839 Yeah, that it's just the thing that happens. The Internet 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:36.559 is over here and the real people are over here 1:14:37.000 --> 1:14:40.720 for sure, when it's not been that for like fifteen years, 1:14:41.560 --> 1:14:44.720 and it's just the stories like this, I think, like 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:47.519 the free story idea of giving away because I do 1:14:47.640 --> 1:14:52.479 not have the time, but like a regional airport that 1:14:52.520 --> 1:14:54.519 got fucked up because of the Windows update, that. 1:14:54.600 --> 1:14:56.080 Is the reas' going to talk to the humans. 1:14:56.160 --> 1:14:59.800 Yeah exactly. And also this is the practical implications of this. 1:14:59.840 --> 1:15:03.280 We talk about tragicta what have you, but like, when 1:15:03.320 --> 1:15:05.000 you get down to it, what does this actually do 1:15:05.080 --> 1:15:08.519 for real people? What's an actual fucking thing happening? And 1:15:08.560 --> 1:15:10.200 I want like I want bits. 1:15:09.880 --> 1:15:12.880 Back my boss? 1:15:13.439 --> 1:15:15.760 Who's your boss? Email them now? 1:15:15.760 --> 1:15:16.760 I actually don't talk to. 1:15:18.880 --> 1:15:28.760 Year mister. That's it with your news prepper fuck ship now. 1:15:29.560 --> 1:15:33.600 It's it's frustrating as well. And the joy of this 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:37.120 show is the I get to do a bit of that, 1:15:37.240 --> 1:15:38.840 but even then I don't get to go like I 1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:41.479 don't have the time. If they bade me like three 1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:46.320 million dollars a year, which is what I demand. No, 1:15:46.439 --> 1:15:48.000 but if I had more time, it would be like 1:15:48.040 --> 1:15:49.760 sending people out to do that. It could happen here, 1:15:49.800 --> 1:15:52.559 which is a sister show a better offline. I guess 1:15:52.560 --> 1:15:54.800 we're a sister show of it. They do great work 1:15:54.800 --> 1:15:56.759 because they go out and find these weird fucking stories, 1:15:57.560 --> 1:15:59.200 and I want more of that about like, I want 1:15:59.240 --> 1:16:01.320 more of the weird because we already know how bad 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:02.960 of Google is and I'm going to keep doing it. 1:16:03.000 --> 1:16:08.880 Sorry everyone, but it it feels like everyone being tired 1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:13.280 is the problem. And also not talking about any specific outlet, 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:19.000 but gearing coverage towards conferences has become the other problem, 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:20.479 where it's like, well, if we do this, we'll get 1:16:20.479 --> 1:16:22.040 the guy to speak on stage and say the same 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:23.400 thing he said in the press release, and then we 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:26.280 will get the money. The writers will not get the money, 1:16:26.280 --> 1:16:27.960 because that's not how this worked, but they will do 1:16:28.000 --> 1:16:31.120 the labor. And perhaps I'm saying that the people who 1:16:31.160 --> 1:16:33.519 run these publications haven't written a fucking word of meaning 1:16:33.560 --> 1:16:35.880 in maybe ten or fifteen years, or maybe their entire lives, 1:16:35.920 --> 1:16:37.960 and perhaps these publications need to be run by people 1:16:37.960 --> 1:16:40.759 who actually fucking write stuff instead of these goddamn management 1:16:40.760 --> 1:16:42.599 consultants who don't know what the fuck they're doing. But 1:16:42.640 --> 1:16:43.840 that's just one thing I had. 1:16:44.080 --> 1:16:45.160 Well, I feel like that the. 1:16:46.640 --> 1:16:52.559 It's funny because there's like models. That's the thing about 1:16:52.680 --> 1:16:55.120 media now that I feel like is being hauled out 1:16:55.200 --> 1:16:57.120 is like either there's the big players who have a 1:16:57.200 --> 1:17:03.240 very specific model of like, Okay, these are our reporters, 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:04.519 these are our opinion people. 1:17:04.760 --> 1:17:06.600 Reporters go out and do this. 1:17:06.760 --> 1:17:09.640 There's a lot of overhead in that because reporting is 1:17:09.720 --> 1:17:12.360 expensive and you're not going to produce for weeks or 1:17:12.640 --> 1:17:17.320 a week or whatever, and then you have the one 1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:20.920 or two person shops or whatever on substack or something 1:17:21.000 --> 1:17:22.040 that can riff. 1:17:22.200 --> 1:17:22.680 But like. 1:17:24.360 --> 1:17:28.080 Either, ay, you need to produce like regularly to live, no, 1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:31.880 and you don't have the bandwidth to like fly to 1:17:31.880 --> 1:17:35.400 to Wyoming and talk to you know, the airport that 1:17:35.479 --> 1:17:38.320 got fucked or just like or it's not your thing 1:17:38.400 --> 1:17:40.360 and like you do a different sort of thing. And 1:17:40.400 --> 1:17:43.519 I'm like it would be ideally, And I think The 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:45.120 Times even did a push for this where they were 1:17:45.120 --> 1:17:47.519 doing like a newsletter when everyone when everyone in media 1:17:47.560 --> 1:17:48.680 was doing like a newsletter thing. 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:52.160 Funny, the idea is like, all right, now. 1:17:51.960 --> 1:17:54.719 We can sort of everyone gets subscribed to a newsletter, 1:17:54.760 --> 1:17:55.599 it can riff or whatever. 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:59.479 I don't I don't know where we like net out there, 1:17:59.600 --> 1:18:01.040 you know, like I just don't know. 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:04.439 It was like a classic manager who doesn't write thing. 1:18:04.560 --> 1:18:07.760 It's just like, why is this newsletter big? Because it's 1:18:07.800 --> 1:18:11.320 a newsletter, right, Like, damn, that's so smart. Let's pay 1:18:11.560 --> 1:18:13.880 a million dollars in salaries to people to do the 1:18:13.880 --> 1:18:17.439 same thing they're already doing, which we were already emailing people. 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:19.280 I can get a million dollars just in emails. 1:18:19.479 --> 1:18:23.800 It was just the aggregate spend there. And I think 1:18:23.840 --> 1:18:26.200 the problem is that it's I go back to my 1:18:26.240 --> 1:18:28.639 point I just clunkily made, which it's like the people 1:18:28.720 --> 1:18:32.479 at the top are not fucking writing, They're like pell whatever. 1:18:33.000 --> 1:18:34.639 This is what I was going to say, is that 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:36.720 when I came to the verge, as you're going to say, 1:18:36.800 --> 1:18:39.080 like I did not expect he is like really in 1:18:39.080 --> 1:18:41.519 the newsroom and he is writing all the time, like 1:18:41.560 --> 1:18:43.599 we have this little thing that says like someone published 1:18:43.600 --> 1:18:45.559 an article this in the articles have been published today, 1:18:45.560 --> 1:18:47.840 And he is always on there publishing. 1:18:47.479 --> 1:18:50.360 Stuff, which I've never had that at a newsroom, which 1:18:50.400 --> 1:18:53.000 is crazy for him. I know he's a unit. 1:18:53.360 --> 1:18:55.720 He is and I have my problems with him, and 1:18:55.960 --> 1:18:58.519 one day we'll hash it out. But otherwise he's going 1:18:58.600 --> 1:19:01.240 to come on, I know, love that yet to email 1:19:01.280 --> 1:19:03.519 me back either. I don't know why. It could be 1:19:03.520 --> 1:19:08.200 the things I say in all seriousness is the Verge 1:19:08.280 --> 1:19:10.280 is actually a great example of Yeah, the top person 1:19:10.280 --> 1:19:12.679 should be writing all the time, because if you're not writing, 1:19:13.120 --> 1:19:14.920 how the hell do you know what writing is? What 1:19:15.000 --> 1:19:16.760 do you don't even know what good writing is? You 1:19:16.760 --> 1:19:19.800 don't even know where You can't even have the same 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:22.320 struggles as a reporter. And when a reporter, I don't know, 1:19:22.360 --> 1:19:24.840 I could we talk about anyone says something very rude 1:19:24.840 --> 1:19:27.360 in your publication, you fire them the next day for 1:19:27.400 --> 1:19:31.599 pissing off tech bros could be talking about anyone. You're 1:19:31.640 --> 1:19:35.040 not building solidarity and you're definitely not supporting actual reporting. 1:19:35.280 --> 1:19:37.720 Yeah, the Virgin Boxer fire at this. 1:19:38.000 --> 1:19:41.400 Sorry to say gen z terms, but they're really really good. 1:19:42.560 --> 1:19:47.080 They're busting. Moment came out of my mouth. I was like, 1:19:47.160 --> 1:19:50.800 oh God, don't worry. When I say it, it sounds. 1:19:52.160 --> 1:19:53.000 No cap. 1:19:56.120 --> 1:19:58.240 But I think, like, that's that's why I came is 1:19:58.240 --> 1:20:00.960 because they let you write weird ship. They give their 1:20:01.080 --> 1:20:04.160 weird writers like all the bandwidths to do whatever they want, 1:20:04.200 --> 1:20:07.840 and Neili is in the trenches with you writing. He 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:10.880 actually was the one who pointed me towards the Google 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:13.920 glue story. He was like, this is fucking crazy, and 1:20:13.960 --> 1:20:16.160 it was like my first week and he's just got like, 1:20:17.040 --> 1:20:20.960 I'm sorry, I agree with that's fair enough. 1:20:21.200 --> 1:20:21.760 Stay out of it. 1:20:21.760 --> 1:20:23.599 We don't know it's too much you write. 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:30.000 You remember Google AI overviews. They if you say, oh 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:32.879 the pizza thing, yes, fuck yeah. 1:20:33.600 --> 1:20:37.439 Blue story, and that was like, yes, that was awesome, 1:20:38.439 --> 1:20:41.439 but yeah. So having someone who's like in the trenches 1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:43.760 with you is so cool because you get to learn 1:20:43.760 --> 1:20:45.960 from them and he can tell me like, hey, like 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:47.080 there's a story over there. 1:20:47.120 --> 1:20:47.519 I know it. 1:20:47.600 --> 1:20:50.599 You know. It's one of the reasons Wineburger was so great. 1:20:50.840 --> 1:20:52.920 He didn't write once, and I'm gonna just chotting at 1:20:52.960 --> 1:20:55.479 Matt Weinberger the entire show. By the way. He did write, 1:20:55.680 --> 1:20:58.360 he did a little, he didn't write enough. One of 1:20:58.400 --> 1:21:00.720 the greatest he was running so much, which is a 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:03.320 great tech story but also a classic Weinberger story, is 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:05.360 he did a review of the latest Madden at the 1:21:05.400 --> 1:21:09.000 time without understanding the rules of football. So the whole 1:21:09.040 --> 1:21:10.680 thing is just to be like, Okay. 1:21:10.360 --> 1:21:12.120 Why is this very funny? 1:21:12.360 --> 1:21:16.240 But honestly, I actually think that kind of stuff's extremely 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:20.360 It's good. I would love to like get like a 1:21:20.439 --> 1:21:24.040 line cook chat, GPT and just record what their thoughts, 1:21:24.120 --> 1:21:26.280 like someone just disconnected for whose regular job is a 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:30.400 real job which actually like sucks and like involves them 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:32.600 having to deal with people like not like a. 1:21:32.600 --> 1:21:35.280 Party, I actually but again free. 1:21:35.080 --> 1:21:38.479 Ideas the whole show. I would love like a We're 1:21:38.479 --> 1:21:40.840 currently in a big studio and I would love like 1:21:40.920 --> 1:21:44.040 a tech like a tech radio show, and I could 1:21:44.080 --> 1:21:49.599 live in here be very damp keyword damp and no cap. 1:21:51.520 --> 1:21:56.519 But also that's in the site. By the way, the 1:21:56.520 --> 1:22:00.840 Internet cable story is Josh Diseaser dz I easy a. 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:03.720 I will put that in the notes as well. Incredible 1:22:03.720 --> 1:22:06.479 story and also scary that the Internet is run by 1:22:06.520 --> 1:22:12.200 a bunch of cables. Good break. It's I feel like 1:22:12.560 --> 1:22:14.640 what we're discussing here though, is the same thing of 1:22:16.200 --> 1:22:19.559 we're discussing how people actually interact with tech, and I 1:22:19.560 --> 1:22:23.320 feel like too much writing is about how people they 1:22:23.360 --> 1:22:27.560 think people interact with tech. We're writing for tech enthusiastics 1:22:28.720 --> 1:22:31.320 rather than how people experience the world. One thing I've 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:32.880 been thinking about, and I don't know how to fucking 1:22:32.920 --> 1:22:36.360 do this podcast is and by the way, the listener, 1:22:36.439 --> 1:22:39.479 the listener who keeps bugging me about this, singling you 1:22:39.520 --> 1:22:40.879 out without naming you. 1:22:41.040 --> 1:22:42.120 What crime do they commit? 1:22:42.840 --> 1:22:52.120 I was actually just thinking of what guy currently writing. No, no, no, 1:22:52.120 --> 1:22:54.600 no no. It's a fair thing. They say, I'm not 1:22:54.640 --> 1:22:57.439 critical enough of Apple. But the one story I want 1:22:57.479 --> 1:22:59.280 to do, and I think this is one that everyone 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:02.000 needs to be honest. Have you used the app store recently? 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:06.759 It's extremely bad. It is so bad, It's so very bad. 1:23:07.040 --> 1:23:09.880 The apps that chart in some sections are just flat 1:23:09.880 --> 1:23:14.719 out dog shit, ad filled nonsense. The discovery on there 1:23:14.920 --> 1:23:17.760 is nakedly corrupt. The people in the app store editorial 1:23:18.120 --> 1:23:21.599 fuck you if you're listening. Okay, not really, but no 1:23:21.640 --> 1:23:27.000 cap no cap. Seriously, the apps tore editorial people is 1:23:27.040 --> 1:23:29.880 so nakedly corrupt. Right now, I don't mean fuck you. 1:23:29.920 --> 1:23:32.600 Please don't punish any podcast other than mine, punish me. 1:23:33.080 --> 1:23:37.880 But then they just feed the richest people. They're featuring 1:23:38.160 --> 1:23:41.400 popular things. They feature popular apps like why do I 1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:44.120 need to feature Facebook. I'm actually gonna load this shit 1:23:44.200 --> 1:23:46.479 up right now. I'm fine, I hope I'm not wrong. 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:49.200 I'm gonna look like a real toss pot. Okay. The 1:23:49.200 --> 1:23:52.480 top thing on here is tour Monopoly goes Amazing Destinations. 1:23:52.800 --> 1:23:56.080 Monopoly Go makes billions of dollars. Why is that what 1:23:56.160 --> 1:23:57.120 Apple is surfacing? 1:23:57.920 --> 1:24:00.479 That's weird. That's like a featured thing and not like 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:00.960 a charting. 1:24:01.120 --> 1:24:03.439 It is the first thing when you open the apps. 1:24:04.800 --> 1:24:08.439 Next Amazon Music, Top apps right now, TikTok Max, Disney Plus, Snapchat, 1:24:09.040 --> 1:24:11.040 Amazon Music. Next one. 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:13.360 I went to one of their south By Southwest parties 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:18.400 and sud Group love there. That's my only the. 1:24:18.360 --> 1:24:20.240 Most useful part of Amazon Music. 1:24:20.439 --> 1:24:24.200 It was, Yeah, the most useful part of Amazon Music 1:24:24.280 --> 1:24:27.679 is an offline. Next thing up is Toka Bocal World. 1:24:27.680 --> 1:24:29.439 That's a they make at least one hundred million dollars 1:24:29.439 --> 1:24:31.719 a year. Next one up Squadbusters, which is a game 1:24:32.320 --> 1:24:38.040 by super Cell Multimer millions of dollars. Every single thing 1:24:38.080 --> 1:24:40.439 on here is just making the rich Richard. The next 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:42.280 is Bluey, which is literally worth billions. 1:24:43.080 --> 1:24:44.080 Isn't that a dog? 1:24:44.760 --> 1:24:45.000 I saw? 1:24:45.680 --> 1:24:48.280 I saw Bluey at a Clippers game. Drunk Off is asked, 1:24:48.320 --> 1:24:50.880 leering at the cheerleaders. They kicked him out for being 1:24:50.880 --> 1:24:53.799 too drunk. Didn't even make it to the half anyway. 1:24:54.439 --> 1:24:58.280 Jokes about blueish side. That's a that's a real problem. 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:03.000 That is a real algorithmic problem that everyone is facing. 1:25:03.080 --> 1:25:05.400 But everyone's kind of in the tech media for good reason. 1:25:05.520 --> 1:25:08.479 Folks in the open AI focused on AI AI AI AI. 1:25:08.600 --> 1:25:11.160 It needs to be this when the real problems are 1:25:11.200 --> 1:25:14.639 sitting in front of us, and those are the ones 1:25:14.680 --> 1:25:17.519 that people actually are affected by the fact supercell is 1:25:17.640 --> 1:25:20.280 rich because Apple is helping them get rich because Apple 1:25:20.320 --> 1:25:23.720 wants thirty percent, Why not send that traffic to someone else, 1:25:23.800 --> 1:25:26.479 send it to small developers. It's too much like hard work. 1:25:27.520 --> 1:25:30.040 And it pisses me off because well everything pisses me off. 1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:34.080 I guess it pissed me off because it doesn't feel 1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:36.439 like the tech media is currently built to handle this. 1:25:36.479 --> 1:25:38.200 And I don't think it's even the fault of the writers. 1:25:38.680 --> 1:25:42.720 There needs to be an app store reporter. How do we. 1:25:43.600 --> 1:25:46.200 What they would get? 1:25:46.240 --> 1:25:50.280 I mean, there's no fifty there's no infrastructure. I mean, 1:25:50.520 --> 1:25:52.320 tell that to the media executives. That's what I'm trying 1:25:52.360 --> 1:25:52.679 to say. 1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:55.000 I'm not saying you're wrong, like what you know, what 1:25:55.040 --> 1:25:58.559 you're describing is the actual problem. These executives don't want 1:25:58.560 --> 1:26:03.080 to invest in that. But if the argument is what's important, yeah, 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:06.280 then this is important. It's more important than anything else 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:10.320 like Google search, app stole, These are the things that matter. 1:26:10.680 --> 1:26:14.080 But it feels that the media is engineered towards clicks, 1:26:15.439 --> 1:26:18.320 which is then engineered towards pleasing Google, who is currently 1:26:18.360 --> 1:26:20.720 fucking up the news media. It's just we're in this 1:26:20.880 --> 1:26:24.479 weird cycle now. I don't even think real paper wrong over. 1:26:24.680 --> 1:26:28.240 It's really funny because I would always, like very vociferously 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:32.640 fight back against the like clickbait sort of argument, but like, 1:26:32.800 --> 1:26:33.840 I don't. 1:26:33.920 --> 1:26:36.719 I think it's harder to depend against these days because 1:26:36.760 --> 1:26:40.920 of how how traffic has declined and how like I 1:26:40.960 --> 1:26:44.920 do think metrics play a role across Like every outlet 1:26:44.960 --> 1:26:47.680 has an SEO person who is like paying attention to 1:26:47.720 --> 1:26:49.960 what is trending or whatever, you know, and I don't. 1:26:50.240 --> 1:26:55.360 I don't think it's and and I'll I will make 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:59.120 the distinction that I don't think are outlet and I 1:26:59.120 --> 1:27:01.800 don't think most out it's our only driving traffic as 1:27:01.800 --> 1:27:05.200 the primary reason. But I do think because like, look, 1:27:05.240 --> 1:27:07.120 you have a mission, you have like a thing that 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.400 your north star of coverage should be. But like there 1:27:10.479 --> 1:27:12.880 is more awareness than there was ten or fifteen years 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:16.960 ago of like what is happening traffic wise and what 1:27:17.000 --> 1:27:19.160 you should be thinking about. And that's a real thing. 1:27:19.800 --> 1:27:23.280 And you know what's also happening. Immediately after I stopped talking, 1:27:23.320 --> 1:27:25.400 You're going to hear an advertisement. And when you hear 1:27:25.439 --> 1:27:27.680 that ad, you're going to be like, damn, that is 1:27:27.720 --> 1:27:32.040 so thematically relevant. Everything it says that wasn't embarrassing to 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:35.000 add ed didn't feel really annoyed. It didn't make a 1:27:35.000 --> 1:27:37.679 specific rule on his reddit so that people don't talk 1:27:37.720 --> 1:27:40.120 about it. That ad was so well placed. An eye, 1:27:40.240 --> 1:27:43.280 a new customer of this perfect company will love it. 1:27:43.360 --> 1:27:59.639 So please enjoy this extremely relevant ad and we're back. 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:04.400 So the whole traffic thing's funny because clickbait is not 1:28:04.840 --> 1:28:07.280 is part of it. And actually I think Bi's done 1:28:07.320 --> 1:28:09.840 really well with keeping clickbait going but actually doing good 1:28:09.840 --> 1:28:13.479 shit in the topless She's actually found the middle ground, 1:28:13.560 --> 1:28:16.400 which is like straight up like clickbait, but the inside's 1:28:16.400 --> 1:28:16.960 so good but. 1:28:17.000 --> 1:28:19.640 You like it, right, Yeah, Like m Coca actually has 1:28:19.720 --> 1:28:22.320 riffed one this before is like that the idea of 1:28:22.400 --> 1:28:25.040 like you made that headline for people to only click, 1:28:25.120 --> 1:28:28.360 like you want people to be interested in your story, 1:28:28.439 --> 1:28:31.400 like there's gonna be. There isn't an art to it, right, 1:28:31.520 --> 1:28:32.360 It's not all. 1:28:32.200 --> 1:28:34.280 A thousand words and you know a couple of words. 1:28:34.360 --> 1:28:36.080 You gotta figure that out totally. 1:28:36.200 --> 1:28:40.080 Yeah, And it's funny as well because I actually think 1:28:40.160 --> 1:28:43.320 that the take media really needs to realize that other 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:46.080 than chasing clicks. It's like tech stories get a shit 1:28:46.200 --> 1:28:49.439 ton of traffic. That alone should be a sign that 1:28:49.439 --> 1:28:51.479 there's magic to be found here. And it's not from 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:55.000 doing the same thing, and it's from I think that 1:28:55.000 --> 1:28:57.120 there is a way of dressing up like software communities. 1:28:57.680 --> 1:29:00.439 Oh that's what That's what I did for almost two years. 1:29:00.439 --> 1:29:03.519 That was my job, was talking about software developer communities 1:29:03.560 --> 1:29:04.200 and it was rad. 1:29:05.520 --> 1:29:06.080 Yeah, I don't know. 1:29:06.200 --> 1:29:08.000 I think The Verge is actually the first time I've 1:29:08.000 --> 1:29:11.080 worked at a publication where there are no KPIs or 1:29:11.120 --> 1:29:14.080 like traffic goals or sub schoals. No, no, no one 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:17.320 bothers me about that. So it's it's sick, yeah, because 1:29:17.920 --> 1:29:20.320 you know a lot of people experience that, and people 1:29:20.320 --> 1:29:22.720 get yelled about that, like you you you could get 1:29:22.760 --> 1:29:25.760 fired over not reaching traffic. So I don't have to 1:29:25.920 --> 1:29:27.439 worry about that, which is great, and I think that's 1:29:27.479 --> 1:29:31.000 really healthy for writers. I wish more writers had that experience. 1:29:31.120 --> 1:29:33.880 But unfortunately, like where where we're at. 1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:37.439 It's does the times have stuff like that? 1:29:37.640 --> 1:29:38.040 No? 1:29:38.040 --> 1:29:41.120 No, I mean, like I think it's like general vibes, right, 1:29:41.240 --> 1:29:44.240 like if I fucking didn't put anything out in a month, 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:47.960 then like whatever, then I might get a phone call. 1:29:48.000 --> 1:29:51.200 But like, as far as I can tell, or at least, 1:29:51.200 --> 1:29:52.200 I don't get called about it. 1:29:52.240 --> 1:29:54.400 But I don't. I don't wait, like I've never seen 1:29:55.280 --> 1:29:59.760 yeah exactly, but I which time, yeah, short time. 1:30:01.400 --> 1:30:03.880 I do think that like yeah, I do think there 1:30:03.960 --> 1:30:07.439 is more attention to paid to like metrics now, but 1:30:07.680 --> 1:30:11.920 like and I, oh god, I'm just thinking back on 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:14.519 like my super earliest days of writing, and they. 1:30:14.439 --> 1:30:17.320 Have screens back then where they showed like ranking authority. 1:30:19.560 --> 1:30:21.879 I heard that when I first started journalism. 1:30:21.920 --> 1:30:24.559 I was like, what, you have a tyrodactyl that used 1:30:24.600 --> 1:30:26.559 to do the typing for you and turn to your 1:30:27.160 --> 1:30:30.400 living Mike is the same age exactly. 1:30:30.640 --> 1:30:33.679 Sorry, I know I get to be resident old guy 1:30:34.120 --> 1:30:39.040 but like it now. Even then, you know, I was 1:30:39.720 --> 1:30:41.840 still having to churn out more, but now it's just 1:30:41.840 --> 1:30:44.720 gotten like ten times worse. I am totally like all 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:47.840 the folks who I won't like mention outlets, but like 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:50.439 I just have colleagues or friends who work at different 1:30:50.479 --> 1:30:52.600 places and have you have to do this mini a 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:55.559 week or like this is your quota, and like even 1:30:55.600 --> 1:30:57.040 when I was starting out, it was like I had 1:30:57.040 --> 1:30:59.720 to do at least one a day, which I could 1:30:59.760 --> 1:31:04.439 do when I was like twenty four or whatever however old. 1:31:04.560 --> 1:31:08.000 And now I'm thirty nine and I'm fucking I can't 1:31:08.080 --> 1:31:10.800 even think about that. Yeah, you know, so like it's 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:14.839 just a very yeah, I don't know, it's super depressing. 1:31:14.920 --> 1:31:16.960 I'm trying to complain about it too much. 1:31:17.439 --> 1:31:20.120 I was in the trenches when I was in college, 1:31:20.320 --> 1:31:22.679 so I would I was doing all my college classes, 1:31:22.680 --> 1:31:26.120 and then I was also writing for BI and they 1:31:26.120 --> 1:31:29.920 have famously and well publicized very stringent goals about what 1:31:29.960 --> 1:31:32.080 you're supposed to reach. And I was in the trenches, 1:31:32.080 --> 1:31:34.040 but at least I was writing stuff that was really fun. 1:31:34.080 --> 1:31:35.960 And also it was my first job in journalism, so 1:31:36.040 --> 1:31:36.960 I thought that was the norm. 1:31:37.600 --> 1:31:39.120 Just get them all through. 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:41.519 But I think, like speaking to why isn't the tech 1:31:41.560 --> 1:31:44.720 media getting stuff right? They have really really, really really 1:31:44.800 --> 1:31:47.240 rich and powerful people who own their company, and then 1:31:47.479 --> 1:31:49.559 trickles all the way down to people breathing down your 1:31:49.560 --> 1:31:52.040 neck and like, have you written ten stories this week? 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:53.920 The Messenger is a great example of this. 1:31:54.560 --> 1:31:56.800 The poor messenger gone, I forgot all about that. 1:31:56.920 --> 1:31:59.960 Now company forgot until just now, Horri. 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:03.800 You're not dead yet, which is not an actionable threat, 1:32:05.280 --> 1:32:07.000 but the Messenger is a great example. I think of 1:32:07.240 --> 1:32:09.679 a problem that faces the tech media, which is, again, 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:14.519 the people making the publications aren't really the ones touching them. 1:32:14.520 --> 1:32:17.120 Fink le Stein, formerly of The Hill, a hundred million 1:32:17.160 --> 1:32:19.719 dollars off selling The Hill to I assume a private 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:22.200 equity firm. I did say it in a previous episode. 1:32:22.280 --> 1:32:23.920 I forget everything I say the moment I say it, 1:32:24.840 --> 1:32:28.400 and it's it's frustrating. But also at some point I 1:32:28.520 --> 1:32:30.920 think that the tech media could look more like a 1:32:30.960 --> 1:32:33.720 bunch of four h four medias. I wish I think 1:32:33.760 --> 1:32:37.160 it's going that way, because look, the biggest fallacy of 1:32:37.240 --> 1:32:39.000 all of these tech pubs is are you can't do 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:41.559 them profitable without a bunch of trap. Fuck you, you can 1:32:41.560 --> 1:32:44.479 make them super profitable if you don't have fifty people, 1:32:44.840 --> 1:32:49.719 if you have focused people. My granded dreams turn newsletter 1:32:49.720 --> 1:32:51.920 in a thing where I just have a bunch of stringers, freelancers, 1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:54.360 free idea for anyone to copy. You just have to 1:32:54.400 --> 1:32:56.519 be able to write three thousand words in an hour, bitch, 1:32:58.520 --> 1:33:03.360 but it's two. But nevertheless, it's I think that that 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:05.360 is where it's going because four or four has done 1:33:05.720 --> 1:33:07.679 probably the best Internet culture reporting. 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:09.080 I love them so much. 1:33:09.120 --> 1:33:11.439 It's so cool to get to see them succeed in 1:33:11.439 --> 1:33:14.599 the way that they have and just completely smash it 1:33:14.640 --> 1:33:17.200 and deliver the best fucking reporting. 1:33:17.680 --> 1:33:20.680 What Samlely, Cole Cobbler. They're all fucking brilliant, and they're 1:33:20.680 --> 1:33:23.800 brilliant because they're all Internet weirdos. Yes I mean that affectionately. 1:33:24.000 --> 1:33:27.280 Yes, Well, on the Motherboard DNA exactly, Sarah Derek, they 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:29.200 all used to work on Motherboard and that was like 1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:30.439 mother Board was one. 1:33:30.280 --> 1:33:35.519 Of the real good and weird internet sites before Vice 1:33:36.200 --> 1:33:36.640 killed it. 1:33:36.720 --> 1:33:39.679 But yeah, all those people at the top. 1:33:39.560 --> 1:33:41.360 Host I wanted to be them so bad. 1:33:41.439 --> 1:33:44.760 They're great too, super great, No, seriously, like one of 1:33:44.760 --> 1:33:46.559 my heroes Edward im Guiso Junior. 1:33:48.000 --> 1:33:49.120 Yeah, good guy. 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:51.640 I wish he wrote more. I love his work, but 1:33:51.720 --> 1:33:54.599 also another I don't know. He's a logic. I believe 1:33:54.640 --> 1:33:57.160 now he's gonna be on the next Better Off Live. 1:33:57.400 --> 1:33:58.240 Oh that's cool. 1:33:58.560 --> 1:33:59.240 He's so cool. 1:33:59.320 --> 1:33:59.720 That's right. 1:33:59.760 --> 1:34:02.560 But it's it's like guys like that having an opportunity 1:34:02.560 --> 1:34:05.400 a place like Motherboard is so good. I want to 1:34:05.439 --> 1:34:09.080 see like more of these clustered publications because if you 1:34:09.160 --> 1:34:11.280 really look at the old school tech Crunch, and I 1:34:11.320 --> 1:34:14.839 know people have fairly very negative views about Michael Arrington. 1:34:15.360 --> 1:34:17.479 I'm not talking about him as a person because all 1:34:17.520 --> 1:34:21.519 of that sucks. However, the original days of tech Crunch 1:34:21.600 --> 1:34:24.160 resemble four oh four media so much more than they 1:34:24.160 --> 1:34:26.519 do tech Crunch today in that it was a bun. 1:34:26.600 --> 1:34:29.360 It was Michaelarrington, and there's a big myth that it's like, well, 1:34:29.400 --> 1:34:31.760 tech Crunch is very dry. It was be like Mike 1:34:31.760 --> 1:34:35.920 Clownton going, You'll never believe who I saw the melt. 1:34:36.040 --> 1:34:40.160 I forgot the creamery like a black or the ghost 1:34:40.160 --> 1:34:41.680 of it is a black from here and he. 1:34:41.600 --> 1:34:43.320 Would just like hang out. They'd be like, you'll never 1:34:43.400 --> 1:34:46.080 believe what I And it's great This is why I 1:34:46.080 --> 1:34:47.000 say gossip. 1:34:46.960 --> 1:34:49.639 Because this is what it is. 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:50.880 Is what it was in the oldest, Like ooh, I've 1:34:50.880 --> 1:34:53.840 heard that Inside Partners is going to do this. It's 1:34:53.880 --> 1:34:57.439 inside Partners. Is that one of the VY people, one 1:34:57.479 --> 1:35:00.160 of the big vcs, he'd hear some ship and and 1:35:00.200 --> 1:35:03.679 that would be an even poor cars dirty but even 1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:07.320 he did the same thing. Sarah lazy but it's okay, 1:35:07.320 --> 1:35:08.720 that's a bit me and she did some good ship. 1:35:09.120 --> 1:35:10.120 But nevertheless, she. 1:35:10.120 --> 1:35:12.320 Did a really good book, actually the once You're Lucky 1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:13.600 Twice You're good. You should read that. 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:15.879 That's the thing, shouldn't. 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.479 I need to learn way more about this old school. 1:35:20.560 --> 1:35:22.640 I mean, we've fought a lot over the years, but 1:35:22.720 --> 1:35:25.000 she has ship. Some of her reporter is really good. 1:35:25.000 --> 1:35:27.840 But also, this is what my longer term vision I'm 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:29.680 just saying it on the pod is. I want to 1:35:29.720 --> 1:35:34.160 rebuild solidarity within the tech media. It's a very lonely industry. 1:35:34.200 --> 1:35:36.720 Everyone's very much an island. Even the Virgin which I love. 1:35:37.520 --> 1:35:39.680 The Virginal podcast is the Virgin people talking to the 1:35:39.720 --> 1:35:42.720 Virgin power stuff every four and four. Same deal. I 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:45.639 love four and four, but the same deal, and it's 1:35:46.640 --> 1:35:50.920 everyone's bulkanized a bit, but also it will allow for 1:35:51.000 --> 1:35:54.479 delicious beefs and gossip, and I think that people love that. 1:35:54.600 --> 1:35:57.200 I think people like it's like, oh, you'll never believe. 1:35:57.240 --> 1:36:00.280 Oh they're angry at each other again. People love this shit. 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:04.120 It's low stakes drama. Oh you got the scoop on grumbus. 1:36:04.960 --> 1:36:08.240 I had the scoop on grumbus. You aggregated my grumbus. 1:36:08.280 --> 1:36:12.240 I just had this conversation today. Actually, grumm. 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:15.600 I do think that we It's like journalists can be 1:36:15.720 --> 1:36:19.160 often very catty and insecure, and that is. 1:36:19.120 --> 1:36:21.240 Like the biggest culture shot. Getting into this. 1:36:21.280 --> 1:36:25.160 I was like, fuck, this is like like throwing elbows. 1:36:25.200 --> 1:36:27.160 I feel like I got like literally elbowed in the 1:36:27.160 --> 1:36:28.599 teeth so many times by people. 1:36:28.600 --> 1:36:31.040 I'm like, fuck God, but it isn't. 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:35.920 Yes, sorry, I was more agro I think when I 1:36:36.000 --> 1:36:39.759 was younger, and I get it, Like I think I'm 1:36:40.520 --> 1:36:42.519 also like because I work at the times, there's a 1:36:42.520 --> 1:36:46.639 whole weirdness around that and like people often with good 1:36:46.680 --> 1:36:48.680 reasons in the past, like we didn't used to like 1:36:48.760 --> 1:36:50.840 not link a lot. Now I think we're way I 1:36:50.920 --> 1:36:53.559 will spend time that. Yeah, I mean I get it 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.559 all the time. But I think I was trained, probably 1:36:56.560 --> 1:36:58.479 because I came up and blugging to like link and 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:01.280 like credit and I think our desk is very good 1:37:01.320 --> 1:37:05.800 about it now. But like everyone is just like I 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:08.799 described this a lot, like I feel like journalism today 1:37:08.920 --> 1:37:12.000 is a lot of like very insecure overachievers, and everyone's 1:37:12.080 --> 1:37:14.160 kind of like looking over their shoulders and trying to 1:37:14.200 --> 1:37:16.679 compete and trying to like make their mark or whatever. 1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:20.679 And I think getting your I have a fucking ego, 1:37:20.760 --> 1:37:26.439 but trying to get yeah, exactly, try trying to tamp 1:37:26.520 --> 1:37:30.200 that down as much and just like keep it and also, 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:33.200 like people, one thing I've tried to do, even though 1:37:33.200 --> 1:37:35.760 it's hard, is like people like really remember when you 1:37:35.800 --> 1:37:38.920 pay them compliments on us totally like just doing a 1:37:39.000 --> 1:37:41.960 nice posting like that was a great story. 1:37:42.280 --> 1:37:43.280 I think it's a nice thing. 1:37:43.520 --> 1:37:45.320 That's something I do with lots on this show, because 1:37:46.640 --> 1:37:48.719 like I really am, I've got and it's. 1:37:48.600 --> 1:37:50.800 Easy to like shoot on someone's stuff and then they 1:37:50.880 --> 1:37:54.200 fucking they'll remember that, right. I remember, you. 1:37:54.120 --> 1:37:57.040 Can't do one you have to do like, okay, you 1:37:57.040 --> 1:37:59.360 can't do just being nice. I realized that is an option. 1:37:59.200 --> 1:38:04.040 That I it's down here on the low road. 1:38:05.680 --> 1:38:09.519 You think I've gone lower, I will, but there is 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:11.200 a degree here of like, of course I'm like, I 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:15.479 will criticize Jesus, fuck that word up. But there's so 1:38:15.560 --> 1:38:18.200 much good there and I think the like four or four. 1:38:18.200 --> 1:38:19.519 The reason I bring them up so much is they're 1:38:19.520 --> 1:38:22.839 the're fucking like they are, Like, I love sharing their work. Yeah, Defecto, 1:38:22.920 --> 1:38:27.280 which Irillas is outside of tech David Roth. Most people 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:30.400 like Ray Rato, like you've got really like specialized reporters, 1:38:30.439 --> 1:38:33.439 and that's sports, I realized. But that model of Hey 1:38:33.840 --> 1:38:36.880 defined voices that people really love, that love for who 1:38:36.920 --> 1:38:40.280 they are. Drew McGarry covering Ship. People aren't going there 1:38:40.320 --> 1:38:42.479 just to hear about sports. They're going because Drew has 1:38:42.479 --> 1:38:45.320 a thought. Same with David. And I think that model 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:47.559 in tech is something that the verge has done a 1:38:47.560 --> 1:38:50.800 good job on. I think they can go further, but 1:38:50.840 --> 1:38:53.679 it's something that was in bits. It was something that 1:38:54.000 --> 1:38:54.920 had Man'd you do? 1:38:55.280 --> 1:38:58.360 Did I think that The Times is uh? This is 1:38:58.400 --> 1:38:59.200 my personal view. 1:38:59.280 --> 1:39:06.880 I think that they can be ambivalent on personalities, like 1:39:08.120 --> 1:39:10.320 in one way, like it serves them a lot to 1:39:10.400 --> 1:39:15.559 have columnists who like people will go for you know, 1:39:15.680 --> 1:39:18.240 this is a different generation. But like David Brooks or 1:39:18.280 --> 1:39:20.599 Tom Friedman or these folks who have been coming there 1:39:20.600 --> 1:39:22.880 and drive a lot of traffic or talk to the 1:39:22.920 --> 1:39:26.400 president and like are important in some capacity. But at 1:39:26.439 --> 1:39:29.880 the same time, I think Times folks are Times. People 1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:33.599 at the top are always like the brand is first, right, 1:39:33.680 --> 1:39:37.080 it's a New York Times. It's not Mike Isaac at 1:39:37.080 --> 1:39:39.439 the New York Times some thing right, And like, I. 1:39:39.439 --> 1:39:40.760 Do think there's a tension there. 1:39:40.840 --> 1:39:43.880 But in this one thing that I think have expressly 1:39:43.920 --> 1:39:47.720 said outwardly is like in an age of Ai producing 1:39:47.880 --> 1:39:52.000 mountains of bullshit, one advantage we might have is knowing 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.080 that our reporters are people and explaining that they have 1:39:55.200 --> 1:39:58.080 expertise and like going into them. So like it, I 1:39:58.120 --> 1:40:00.599 do think there's like a tension there. I would love 1:40:00.680 --> 1:40:03.720 if they let us be a little more free. 1:40:03.479 --> 1:40:07.040 But like that is the tension, and we all see it. 1:40:07.080 --> 1:40:09.400 And I think that's kind of what you give up 1:40:09.600 --> 1:40:13.040 for the Times, is what it seems like as the outsiders, like, Okay, 1:40:13.120 --> 1:40:14.679 if you want to work for the Times, you're gonna 1:40:14.680 --> 1:40:17.400 have to give that up. And that's it's not just 1:40:17.439 --> 1:40:19.720 the Times. The it's like you know, like a lot 1:40:19.760 --> 1:40:22.000 of of the top publications. You you're not gonna have 1:40:22.040 --> 1:40:24.160 that voice because of what they do. 1:40:24.240 --> 1:40:24.839 It's different. 1:40:24.960 --> 1:40:28.479 What's funny, though, is I'm old enough to remember that 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:31.799 this was the model. David Poge at the New York Times, 1:40:31.960 --> 1:40:35.160 Eric Benderoff, I think it was at the Tribune here 1:40:35.280 --> 1:40:37.320 was a bray. I think at the Boston Globe you 1:40:37.520 --> 1:40:39.760 had tech colonists and they were insane. You still got 1:40:39.760 --> 1:40:41.519 like Jim Rossman, I think that that was morning use 1:40:41.960 --> 1:40:44.080 mixing up with someone. Nevertheless, you have a few, but 1:40:44.760 --> 1:40:47.320 regional tech columists used to get paid insane money. M 1:40:49.080 --> 1:40:51.240 there was a rumor. There was a rumor that, like 1:40:51.479 --> 1:40:54.200 I think seen it, tried to pay Nick Bilton a 1:40:54.200 --> 1:40:54.920 million dollars. 1:40:54.960 --> 1:40:57.599 I remember that. I don't even remember. 1:40:58.280 --> 1:41:00.599 I've heard Felix Salmon stories. 1:41:01.960 --> 1:41:05.120 This is like passed down from older journalists to me 1:41:05.320 --> 1:41:06.240 through generations. 1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:08.639 So the Fusion days, Oh that was great? 1:41:09.000 --> 1:41:10.120 What was this? We need to tell you? 1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:11.720 Oh my god, Well do. 1:41:11.680 --> 1:41:13.519 You remember the Fusion Do you remember Fusion? 1:41:13.560 --> 1:41:13.840 Does that? 1:41:13.880 --> 1:41:15.719 I remember? Like the logo? 1:41:16.760 --> 1:41:19.280 I mean you shouldn't because it was literally like a 1:41:19.520 --> 1:41:25.440 production of Telemundo that wanted to do is tech company Olsen. 1:41:25.320 --> 1:41:26.960 Or h ship. 1:41:27.520 --> 1:41:31.160 There was a bunch of cash Hill there. Kevin Russ 1:41:31.240 --> 1:41:35.680 work there, and what they did was uh uh And 1:41:35.720 --> 1:41:38.519 they hired Felix Oh like just magical. So what they 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:41.880 did though was like come in and throw like money 1:41:41.920 --> 1:41:44.400 at everyone. I fucking rude the day that I didn't 1:41:44.439 --> 1:41:46.360 try to get a job there because my salary would 1:41:46.400 --> 1:41:50.599 be like four x what it is nice but right, right, right, 1:41:50.720 --> 1:41:53.240 But I think the rumor was I'm not going to 1:41:53.600 --> 1:41:55.840 say exactly what it was, but just there were rumors 1:41:55.880 --> 1:41:59.160 on how much people were getting paid and we all 1:41:59.160 --> 1:42:01.599 should have done that great and that the company went 1:42:01.600 --> 1:42:04.160 out of business like two week years later. No, no, 1:42:04.200 --> 1:42:07.000 they bought got bought by Gizmoto, which then fucking I 1:42:07.000 --> 1:42:07.840 don't even know what. 1:42:07.920 --> 1:42:10.040 No, Gizmoto got bought by Telemando. 1:42:10.600 --> 1:42:12.040 Media is not just fun anymore. 1:42:12.360 --> 1:42:15.920 Fucking human centipede of shit that is media industry. 1:42:15.960 --> 1:42:18.759 Again. I will have drinks every city I'm in. Everyone 1:42:18.800 --> 1:42:20.840 will get drunk together, and then everyone will be mad 1:42:20.840 --> 1:42:22.479 at each other and then we'll have stuff like this. 1:42:23.120 --> 1:42:25.200 But it's I think it is partly also the remote 1:42:25.200 --> 1:42:26.160 work movement. 1:42:26.200 --> 1:42:28.479 And I've only been a remote journalist, which is crazy. 1:42:28.680 --> 1:42:29.759 You're are going to an office. 1:42:29.920 --> 1:42:34.000 I will, but like, I've never had a newsroom never. 1:42:34.439 --> 1:42:35.920 Oh that's a that's a bummer. 1:42:36.000 --> 1:42:39.000 Whenever I say that, people who are journalists before COVID 1:42:39.080 --> 1:42:39.799 or like that sucks. 1:42:39.880 --> 1:42:43.640 I feel like, also though that is somewhat romanticized though, because. 1:42:43.680 --> 1:42:45.320 You're because you're anti you're anti. 1:42:45.520 --> 1:42:47.400 Oh, it's not even a remote work thing. It's just 1:42:47.439 --> 1:42:51.160 the newsroom of Future Publishing when I work there. Eight shit, 1:42:51.240 --> 1:42:55.880 don't live in England anymore. Future Publishing there was there 1:42:55.920 --> 1:42:57.400 was just a mood of depression in that books. It 1:42:57.400 --> 1:42:59.880 was a depressing place to work run by us White. 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:00.280 Sure. 1:43:00.960 --> 1:43:03.960 And so then you go into the BBC one or 1:43:04.000 --> 1:43:06.280 the Bloomberg one, you're like, Okay, I fucking get it. 1:43:06.320 --> 1:43:08.679 Like I would be, oh, yeah, the Bloomberg one sounds awesome, 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:10.240 but the BBC one, at least the old one. 1:43:10.280 --> 1:43:14.479 I haven't been into the Big Tower too, And I 1:43:14.520 --> 1:43:17.559 feel like that it'd be cool if a tech newsroom 1:43:17.560 --> 1:43:19.920 exists like that. It just in the world, just practically speaking. 1:43:20.200 --> 1:43:21.880 But also I don't know if one. I guess all 1:43:21.920 --> 1:43:23.040 things that you kind of had one. 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:26.080 I mean, we had like a we were like weirdly 1:43:26.120 --> 1:43:29.759 remote hybrid. We had like a work space or something 1:43:29.840 --> 1:43:35.080 in Soma, but I think that like, like, look, it's 1:43:35.120 --> 1:43:37.880 we are romanticizing it. But I do like and I 1:43:38.000 --> 1:43:40.920 fucking work from home literally all the time. But but 1:43:41.400 --> 1:43:44.760 my the thing that I miss about working at headquarters 1:43:44.800 --> 1:43:47.760 in New York was just like you walk around run 1:43:47.800 --> 1:43:48.759 into people bullshit. 1:43:48.920 --> 1:43:49.120 I know. 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:52.400 I actually do sometimes come up with interesting things or 1:43:52.439 --> 1:43:55.879 like share tips and whatever just because you saw someone. 1:43:56.120 --> 1:43:57.360 And I do think there's. 1:43:57.280 --> 1:43:59.840 Value there, No, there is, there is definitely. And I 1:43:59.880 --> 1:44:03.000 was to say box as a New York office business 1:44:03.040 --> 1:44:04.479 insider does fortune does. 1:44:04.600 --> 1:44:07.240 I just have always lived in California my entire lifests 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:08.120 and I'm not moving to New. 1:44:08.120 --> 1:44:12.679 York updated long term a heads that I was recently 1:44:12.720 --> 1:44:17.360 releasing the psychiatric Ward for example, That's where we met 1:44:19.320 --> 1:44:21.519 those people. Like they may remember, I was very pro 1:44:21.520 --> 1:44:23.920 remote work and I still am. I've never been his 1:44:24.080 --> 1:44:27.040 anti office at all. Yeah, and that is like the 1:44:27.080 --> 1:44:29.879 reason I do these in studio ones is because remote 1:44:29.920 --> 1:44:33.080 is fine. But this is cool. This is energy, Yes, 1:44:33.160 --> 1:44:36.000 each other. We can be focused, and I think the 1:44:37.120 --> 1:44:40.559 I do it's the real dumb startup guy thing in 1:44:40.600 --> 1:44:42.960 my house, like we should have a coworking splost for 1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:45.400 the tech media. That's like a really good twenty eleven 1:44:45.439 --> 1:44:47.720 asked Idea. 1:44:47.280 --> 1:44:49.080 Right, Well, I think the thing that gets lost from 1:44:49.280 --> 1:44:52.679 like again, I'm older than you and like I came 1:44:52.760 --> 1:44:55.479 up in like where remote work was not a thing, 1:44:56.040 --> 1:44:58.760 not really, and like now I am very much a 1:44:58.880 --> 1:45:01.120 remote per in a lot of the time. 1:45:01.320 --> 1:45:04.679 But like I do at least appreciate the. 1:45:04.840 --> 1:45:08.280 Time that I had in I think it means something 1:45:08.400 --> 1:45:11.080 very different when you're when you're younger in your career 1:45:11.160 --> 1:45:14.000 rather than you're older in your career, and I forget that. 1:45:14.400 --> 1:45:17.240 Like I was in the Times headquarters from twenty fourteen 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:20.479 twenty sixteen, and that was super valuable for me because 1:45:21.200 --> 1:45:24.920 like just the whole like fucking face time with who 1:45:25.439 --> 1:45:27.559 you should know or what everything is real? You know? 1:45:27.920 --> 1:45:30.519 And I will like again, I'm like missed the remote work. 1:45:30.560 --> 1:45:33.800 But my first job was at Pcson Magazine with Future, 1:45:33.800 --> 1:45:35.639 and as miserable as that place was, it was because 1:45:35.640 --> 1:45:38.240 of the management, yep, not because of people like Will 1:45:38.280 --> 1:45:40.920 Porter and Steve Hogatine, people I work with who were 1:45:40.920 --> 1:45:43.320 there to tell me to stop playing World of Warcraft 1:45:43.360 --> 1:45:46.760 during work. And then I would say to them, no, 1:45:46.920 --> 1:45:49.439 I've done all my work, and then they would say, no, 1:45:49.560 --> 1:45:51.640 you haven't, and then I would say, yes, I have 1:45:51.720 --> 1:45:53.559 go check and then they would be really pissed off 1:45:53.560 --> 1:45:56.679 and tell me to stop playing anyway. Jokes aside, having 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:59.599 Will redline my shit in person broke my spira. 1:46:00.040 --> 1:46:01.000 Oh, that's awesome. 1:46:01.360 --> 1:46:03.800 But actually it was really valuable because I then went 1:46:03.840 --> 1:46:07.080 and had coffee with Steve Hogerti, who then said he's 1:46:07.160 --> 1:46:10.519 right though, and that also hurt. But it was also 1:46:10.640 --> 1:46:11.960 the fact that I could go back to Will and 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:13.960 actually have a conversation about what the fuck he meant. 1:46:14.720 --> 1:46:18.479 He's a wonderful edity, genuinely like and having that experience 1:46:18.479 --> 1:46:20.040 and then kind of like having the moment being like, 1:46:20.080 --> 1:46:23.120 oh my spirit, but not having that on my own 1:46:23.320 --> 1:46:26.800 at home, separated from the world, I actually think was 1:46:26.880 --> 1:46:29.400 quite valuable. It's just I keep coming back to this 1:46:29.439 --> 1:46:30.960 solidarity thing. I think it's just. 1:46:31.840 --> 1:46:33.000 We have that solidarity. 1:46:33.120 --> 1:46:37.760 I think, like physical physical I have adapted as a 1:46:37.840 --> 1:46:41.560 journalist just fine. I would have loved a newsroom that 1:46:41.600 --> 1:46:44.360 would be great, but I adapted. I went to tons 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:46.360 of events, I've met tons of and then I've also 1:46:46.439 --> 1:46:49.120 like reached out to like more established journalists a ton 1:46:49.200 --> 1:46:50.600 I'm like, hey, can I get your advice on this? 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:53.000 All the time, and people my age, I think, like 1:46:53.560 --> 1:46:56.080 I definitely have that as harsh as it is, like 1:46:56.520 --> 1:46:59.400 especially in San Francisco, like, for instance, people on my beat. 1:46:59.479 --> 1:47:02.439 Rachel met at Bloomberg. I see her at events. We 1:47:03.040 --> 1:47:05.640 talk all the time, like having those people who are 1:47:05.640 --> 1:47:08.240 more established who can be like hey, like, we still 1:47:08.280 --> 1:47:10.720 have that, I think, but younger generalists have to know 1:47:11.000 --> 1:47:11.720 to reach out for that. 1:47:11.800 --> 1:47:14.920 I guess maybe it's more defined. I'm just trying to find, 1:47:15.040 --> 1:47:16.439 like an excuse to throw a party. 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:18.799 I think I would go to your party. 1:47:19.040 --> 1:47:19.280 Yeah. 1:47:19.400 --> 1:47:22.960 The last time I saw Mike at a party actually 1:47:23.000 --> 1:47:24.040 there was a thing in December. 1:47:24.200 --> 1:47:28.759 But let's wrap this up though. So I've really enjoyed 1:47:28.800 --> 1:47:32.720 having you both here. Thank you so much. Mike. Where 1:47:32.720 --> 1:47:33.519 can people find you? 1:47:38.080 --> 1:47:40.960 I mean, I'm writing occasionally at The New York Times, 1:47:40.960 --> 1:47:44.320 where I work for my full time job, and then 1:47:45.160 --> 1:47:50.680 on Twitter, but more on Instagram too now just like 1:47:50.760 --> 1:47:53.280 google my name and then you can find on my show. 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:56.000 So I wrote a book which if I would love 1:47:56.040 --> 1:47:59.519 to plug. It's called super Pumped The Battle for Uber 1:47:59.720 --> 1:48:04.040 And if you don't like reading, you can watch the show, 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:05.400 which is on Netflix. 1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:09.519 Right off the show, Thank you very cool. 1:48:10.280 --> 1:48:12.840 Yeah, I'll just say I love that show so much 1:48:12.920 --> 1:48:15.400 because I had such a huge crush on Jesseph Gordon 1:48:15.439 --> 1:48:17.559 Levitt was growing up. And then I also didn't know 1:48:17.560 --> 1:48:21.280 Travis Kalenick was such a dick. That show is awesome. 1:48:23.320 --> 1:48:25.400 J g l is also a lovely human being, but. 1:48:25.400 --> 1:48:27.080 Oh my god, I love him, so you. 1:48:27.479 --> 1:48:29.920 Can be yeah, doubly secure. 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:32.720 And problem with that show was it felt like they 1:48:32.760 --> 1:48:36.360 cost the wrong guy as Travis. There's a guy who 1:48:36.400 --> 1:48:39.639 just looks exactly like Travis Kalenick who plays like coming. 1:48:39.840 --> 1:48:41.280 Oh yeah, it was funny. 1:48:41.320 --> 1:48:43.600 A lot of super employees were like, they should have 1:48:43.880 --> 1:48:44.880 Kyle Chandlers. 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:47.240 So good. I ate that up. 1:48:47.920 --> 1:48:52.719 Okay, you can find me on Twitter x at Kylie Bites. 1:48:53.120 --> 1:48:57.240 I'm on threads at Kylie dot Robinson not Robinson with 1:48:57.280 --> 1:48:59.559 an N in the middle, no en And then I'm 1:48:59.720 --> 1:49:02.519 right the Verge full time about AI and tech stuff. 1:49:02.880 --> 1:49:04.599 And you can find me, of course on the Better 1:49:04.640 --> 1:49:08.840 Offline podcast. Ask your parole officer to listen to you 1:49:08.840 --> 1:49:11.080 one podcast. I'm so sorry, I promise I don't think 1:49:11.120 --> 1:49:13.720 all of you are criminals. I love you all. I'm 1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:15.840 saying it like I love you all, like the menu 1:49:15.960 --> 1:49:18.080 if you remember that. Don't know if they let you 1:49:18.120 --> 1:49:21.799 watch that clink, but thank you so much for listening everyone, 1:49:21.880 --> 1:49:24.519 Better offline dot com. You'll then get the same liner 1:49:24.560 --> 1:49:35.880 that plays off every episode. Thank you for listening, Thank 1:49:35.920 --> 1:49:38.639 you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer 1:49:38.680 --> 1:49:41.479 of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can 1:49:41.560 --> 1:49:43.920 check out more of his music and audio projects at 1:49:43.960 --> 1:49:47.400 Mattasowski dot com, m A T T O s O 1:49:48.080 --> 1:49:51.559 W s ki dot com. You can email me at 1:49:51.560 --> 1:49:54.400 easy at Better offline dot com, or visit better offline 1:49:54.439 --> 1:49:56.519 dot com to find more podcast links and of course 1:49:56.560 --> 1:49:59.759 my newsletter. 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