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Speaker 1: Alone media, nobody say anything weird.

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Speaker 2: Than me.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Ande, Welcome to Better Offline. This is the second

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Speaker 1: episode of Better Off Live, the life to tape show

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Speaker 1: that I do whenever I travel, and I pick up

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Speaker 1: wonderful people like my good friend Mike Isaac from The

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Speaker 1: New York Times, who joins me today, and of course

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Speaker 1: Kylie Roberson, the one for Kylie Robison from The Verge.

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Speaker 1: Thank you both for coming, thanks for having me, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: And today is and I'm definitely checking the date on

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Speaker 1: my phone Friday, the nineteenth of July. So nothing big

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Speaker 1: has happened today other than everything breaking. So for those

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Speaker 1: of you listening, this is likely going to come out

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Speaker 1: after the CrowdStrike episode. I had to write the moment

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Speaker 1: I got back from breakfast until the moment I left

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Speaker 1: for this episode, and there will be a full explainer there.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this, and again this will

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Speaker 1: be after it. So I don't know why I'm even

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Speaker 1: saying that we're in a weird time in the tech industry.

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Speaker 1: It feels like we are watching, at least I think,

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Speaker 1: the end of the world. On some level. We're watching

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Speaker 1: the institutional failures that are just creating more and more problems.

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Speaker 1: And then also we're watching open AI on the other side,

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Speaker 1: just like every two days, Like yeah, there's five levels

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Speaker 1: of reasoning and we are on number one, which is

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Speaker 1: just a very annoying chat bot that sometimes those things,

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Speaker 1: and level two will be when it's a smart computer,

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Speaker 1: and then level five smartest computer of all time or

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Speaker 1: without like an actual product people really care about. It

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Speaker 1: just feels strange. I feel weird right now, and I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty weird anyway.

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Speaker 3: I'm just waiting for them to be useful. Does that

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Speaker 3: make sense or like, like I don't know, Like it

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Speaker 3: feels very I mean you tell me, like we're like

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Speaker 3: super steeped in it, but like it feels very like

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Speaker 3: everyone I have decided this is the thing we have

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Speaker 3: to build, or this is the thing we're moving towards,

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Speaker 3: and like the utility of it almost comes later, like

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Speaker 3: they're sort of like ahead of themselves.

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Speaker 1: A little strange.

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Speaker 4: I'm surprised, but I'm also steeped in it, and I

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Speaker 4: try to get my friends to use it to see

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Speaker 4: if it's helpful. My civil engineer partner has started using

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Speaker 4: it for seismic projects, which is very very niche thing,

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Speaker 4: but obviously it's not accurate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, orever, that's not ever. That's the thing though.

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Speaker 1: They keep saying, well, it hallucinates now, but it won't

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Speaker 1: in the future. And then you say why and they go, oh, sorry,

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Speaker 1: how even and they go, well, we will get to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah after right, answer this phone call in the other room.

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Speaker 2: So it's like five miles down the road.

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Speaker 1: Because watching the last few years with the metaverse and

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Speaker 1: Crypto and all this, this is kind of beginning to

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Speaker 1: look like I realized there's a product. No, but I

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Speaker 1: remember back in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, there

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Speaker 1: were these roadmaps you get. You get the roadmap for

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Speaker 1: like the Border Yacht Club, and it would be like

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Speaker 1: the first thing would be whatever they launched, and no,

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Speaker 1: you're a big investiment.

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Speaker 2: Please don't try. That's a joke. Just to be clear.

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Speaker 1: New York Times editorial part. If they do, it's my joke.

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Speaker 1: You have these roadmaps, it would be like, yeah, step one,

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Speaker 1: we released the apes. Step two, we will have a

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Speaker 1: special chat room for the apes. Step eight.

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Speaker 2: Step one release the apes. Good you can swear, okay,

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Speaker 2: just check.

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Speaker 1: This is a cuss fill podcast. You can say fucking

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Speaker 1: shit and all the words, okay, but on the rub

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Speaker 1: and then step eight would be like a real life

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Speaker 1: club in Miami for apes, And I'm actually being serious

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Speaker 1: that is on the roadmap, and they've promised this like

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Speaker 1: metaverse where you can play as your apes in the computer,

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Speaker 1: and all of that seems more real than steps two

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Speaker 1: through five of the open AI reasoning thing. But it's

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Speaker 1: almost like to your point, it's like everyone is just

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Speaker 1: committed to this bit now.

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Speaker 3: I feel like for me a lot of the time

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Speaker 3: and I'm thinking about it just feels like constant fomo

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Speaker 3: across the industry and like always keeping your eye on

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Speaker 3: like what your.

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Speaker 2: Competitors are doing.

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Speaker 3: And like part of this I think may be legitimate

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Speaker 3: because of people are always like, oh, we missed the

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Speaker 3: smartphone right, or we missed like the next platform play

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Speaker 3: that we shouldn't have and that's instructive and because Google

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Speaker 3: really cares about this, we should too. And like like

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Speaker 3: with with self driving, if you remember, like everyone was

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Speaker 3: all in on self driving cars and all these companies

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Speaker 3: spun up and they're all like falling out and it

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Speaker 3: just I don't know, like maybe there's some sort of

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Speaker 3: there's there is a logic to it, but to me,

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Speaker 3: it just feels like a cart before the horse a

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Speaker 3: lot of the time when when I'm trying to grasp

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Speaker 3: like what do we with generally do with gen Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a good distinction, like jen AI versus like AI

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Speaker 3: being like because AI is not also like not a

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Speaker 3: new thing, right, Like it's not. You can't just speak

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Speaker 3: about it as like, Okay, this is just happening.

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Speaker 4: Me and Edward just talking about this about the generative distinction. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I do kind of buy the hyphe

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Speaker 4: a little bit. I guess I don't know it's good.

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Speaker 5: Ed knows this.

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Speaker 4: But did you guys see the lighter model. Do you

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Speaker 4: guys have some opinions about that.

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Speaker 1: I don't have opinions that tell.

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Speaker 5: Me, oh god, the lighter model is cheaper.

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Speaker 4: Uh. They say it's smarter, but technically it's supposed to

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Speaker 4: be you know, less computing power for cheaper, so people

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Speaker 4: can build whatever shit they want that they couldn't because

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Speaker 4: it was way more expensive with a larger and more

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Speaker 4: capable model. And you don't need to like build a

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Speaker 4: shitty little bot with like a giant model anyways, a

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Speaker 4: little model exactly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I get the sense in that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so but they did that because you know all

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Speaker 4: of these Mistral just released a lighter, tinier model, Anthropic

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Speaker 4: has a tiny model, Google has a tiny model, and

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Speaker 4: people developers are more likely to go to those models

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Speaker 4: whether I build something, and Chat did not have anything

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Speaker 4: of the sort.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, So my biggest problem with that is everyone

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Speaker 1: is racing to the bottom, and a race to the

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Speaker 1: bottom is not traditionally something associated with good outcomes. And

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Speaker 1: so it is good that it's cheap or whatever, but

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Speaker 1: also this company is still not profitable. This company is

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Speaker 1: still not particularly useful, and so you've got this situation

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Speaker 1: where everyone's like, well, on top of not being profitable

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Speaker 1: and on top of not being super useful, we're also

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Speaker 1: all having to make the thing cheaper. It is not profitable, yes,

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Speaker 1: and it's just and also that will surely increase usage,

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Speaker 1: which will not fix the sustainability problem. It just feels

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Speaker 1: like we're accelerating towards a wall in the tech industry

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Speaker 1: and I feel a little bit crazy.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm really interested in that. I mean, there's the

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Speaker 4: was it six hundred billion dollar problem, right, yes.

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Speaker 1: And then the trillion dollar Goldman Sax problem.

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Speaker 5: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 4: It does feel that way that there it's just like,

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Speaker 4: let's just keep dumping money into this thing that it's

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Speaker 4: it's not useful now, we hope it'll be useful in

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Speaker 4: the future.

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Speaker 1: You know. It all just feels kind of disingenuous as well,

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Speaker 1: because they're not even dumping six hundred million dollars into

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Speaker 1: AI because Google has had AI initiatives. In fact, Google

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Speaker 1: deliberately avoided the metaverse. Yeah, incredible one move by Sun

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Speaker 1: Dar Well done, mate, But they've been piling money into

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Speaker 1: AI like over a decadic quite deep mind every time,

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Speaker 1: but like this is the one you put the money into,

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Speaker 1: like this is this is your king and it's just

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Speaker 1: it's just artly confusing as well. But I also think

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Speaker 1: it puts the tech media in this really weird position. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where I get and I'm not putting anyone on blust,

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Speaker 1: including you. I get why people have to say humor this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I get it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I get why people have to say, like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: the five magical layers of reasoning, even though the logic

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Speaker 1: with that and by the way, for the listeners and

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Speaker 1: just skipping over a thing you should I should have

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Speaker 1: told you about. There was a story that came out

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Speaker 1: in Bloomberg and it was saying open AI now has

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Speaker 1: five levels of reason, of steps towards of artific intelligence

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Speaker 1: towards superintelligence, and step one is like chat bop. Step

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Speaker 1: two is like agents agents, and it's just very vague.

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Speaker 1: In the story from Bloomberg was like completely flat faced.

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Speaker 1: She's like, yep, this is perfectly reasonable. But the logic

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Speaker 1: is it's like saying I'm a man and I'm on

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Speaker 1: step one of becoming Spider Man, right, And it's just

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Speaker 1: I get why we have to mine Max Journey from

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Speaker 1: Royer's sorry Max, well, actually Max Rocks he put he

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Speaker 1: put it to me quite well, and he was saying,

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Speaker 1: it's open a eye is important, though we have to

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Speaker 1: cover them even and I mean, what are you gonna do?

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Speaker 1: Just say this is bullshit and he's right. And Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: especially like and even like the Times as well. It's

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Speaker 1: not like your opinion writer, it's Kylie. You can get

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Speaker 1: a bit into the opinion. And we talked about it

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Speaker 1: also in your GPT four, oh mini piece you even

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Speaker 1: talk about the problems associated with there. But it's weird.

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Speaker 1: It's this weird situation where what happens if this is

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Speaker 1: all bullshit what happens now, and it's been like three

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Speaker 1: cycles of bullshit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, crypto is instructive, I think there. But I totally

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Speaker 2: agree with you that it it sort.

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Speaker 3: Of becomes a self fulfilling or like it it becomes

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Speaker 3: like weighty because of the attention it gets, and it

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Speaker 3: gets more attention because of that. I do think that

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Speaker 3: like there is a way of covering it, and hopefully

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Speaker 3: a way that media learned from a lot of the

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Speaker 3: bubble around crypto, A lot of the bubble around I

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Speaker 3: think self driving again is like another instructive case, just

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Speaker 3: because like everything was five years away for twenty years basically,

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Speaker 3: and I I think it's like I think you're right.

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Speaker 3: I think we're stuck in like a dilemma of you

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Speaker 3: can't ignore it because more like all like half of

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Speaker 3: VC is going into AI right now. I literally like

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Speaker 3: those are the numbers, and so so you have to follow, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what was it an ass?

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Speaker 2: I need to read my own pero, but.

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Speaker 3: I really don't read my own bo But but so

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Speaker 3: you can't ignore the money. But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: I do think you can. You can at least introduce

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Speaker 3: a level of which I hope we're getting better at,

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Speaker 3: which is like, Okay, this is like a thing. Everyone

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Speaker 3: thinks it's the thing, but like, can we please take

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Speaker 3: the temperature down a little bit? And I do think

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Speaker 3: that like Goldman, Sachs and Sequoya notes that you're referencing,

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Speaker 3: which poor at least some cold water on it is

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Speaker 3: getting there is moving us towards that.

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Speaker 1: Sekoya one though, because he's just like, yeah, it's no

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Speaker 1: real problem being solved, super expensive and yeah, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I still think it's good.

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Speaker 2: It's just the way you gotta talk to your book.

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Speaker 1: There's a great bit in it as well where he

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Speaker 1: was saying like, yeah, the new the new B one

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Speaker 1: hundred processes man video that they're like twenty five percent better,

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Speaker 1: but only like twenty five percent more expensive. It's not

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Speaker 1: like he's saying, look more efficient, because that's if video

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Speaker 1: came up with something which Jensen Wong is incapable of doing,

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Speaker 1: that was more power efficient rather than more powerful, that

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Speaker 1: would actually be significant because look, I would hate to

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Speaker 1: do this. I would be so mad. I just want

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Speaker 1: to be clear. If I'm wrong about generative AI, I

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Speaker 1: will look like such a bell end. I'm gonna look

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Speaker 1: like the biggest twat in all the world. Everyone's gonna

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Speaker 1: laugh at me. I'm going to point you idiot, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not wrong, and I'll disappear if I am. But

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Speaker 1: it's just all of these things keep coming out, and

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Speaker 1: it feels like, because to your point, sure the media

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Speaker 1: got taken by crypto and the metaverse, I don't think

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Speaker 1: they're not being taken. I think you two are you

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Speaker 1: do you guys? You're doing the right thing.

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Speaker 5: Because we're in front of Mike's.

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Speaker 1: But also I wouldn't have brought you on here if

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Speaker 1: I didn't like it that otherwise I would just be

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Speaker 1: like in trouble, you fucking But it's it feels like

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Speaker 1: the rest of the media is kind of flubbing it

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Speaker 1: as well, because there is a level on buff you

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Speaker 1: do this whis good. There's a lack of context any

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Speaker 1: of this shit, the sheer amount of money this costs,

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Speaker 1: and the way that people look at the tech industry

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Speaker 1: outside of pech is souring so badly because of this,

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Speaker 1: because it's kind of like politics. It's people are souring

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Speaker 1: because the media, in the chasing objectivity becomes even more

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Speaker 1: subjective because when you don't subjectively apply reasoning to open AI,

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Speaker 1: for example, you end up in this weird situation where

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Speaker 1: it's like you're actually just parroting their talking points.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's really important to have that distinction. And this is

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Speaker 4: a really good advice that I got from one of

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Speaker 4: my favorite podcast hosts, is that you should write about

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Speaker 4: You should write about what you're what they're doing today

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Speaker 4: and not what they're saying they're going to do later.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's a really important distinction and really

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Speaker 4: really hard because most of the conversations you're having with

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Speaker 4: them is stuff what you're going to be doing with

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Speaker 4: this technology, not really stuff we're doing today.

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Speaker 5: Most of today's kind of.

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Speaker 4: Boring research safety mechanisms that they're deploying and very like

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Speaker 4: tiny tiny, tiny little steps to the large language model.

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Speaker 4: But it's not like we're going to solve the climate

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Speaker 4: crisis and also destroy the climate and physics.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's wild.

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Speaker 3: I feel like some of the problem around coverage and

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Speaker 3: I don't think everyone does this, but I think like

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Speaker 3: this is all happening at the same time the media

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Speaker 3: is getting destroyed as and so like institutional knowledge goes

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Speaker 3: out the door a long time. Like I feel like

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Speaker 3: I mean, just speaking for myself, I feel lucky that

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Speaker 3: I've had a tech job for fourteen years or covering

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Speaker 3: tech for fourteen years, so like still like a drop

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Speaker 3: in the bucket as far as like the history of

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Speaker 3: the valley, but like I've.

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Speaker 2: Been through a few of these cycles, so I can

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Speaker 2: at least.

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Speaker 3: Rattle off shit that I know, like from whatever. And

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Speaker 3: I feel like when Google is no longer servicing news

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Speaker 3: in the same way it is, Facebook has pulled out

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Speaker 3: of news completely, like it's it's killing everyone, but the

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Speaker 3: like really big players and even the really big players

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Speaker 3: are getting hit.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's just like it's not there are

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Speaker 2: a few things going on there. I guess what I

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Speaker 2: would say, Do.

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Speaker 5: We think that the Perplexity incident changed anything?

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Speaker 1: So the Perplexity incident for listeners is.

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Speaker 2: For me, it's no I have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have wonderful listeners who are not in the

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Speaker 1: tech indust trying to learn from me. Your mistake, not mine.

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Speaker 1: This is the Perplexity AI. They're a company that lets

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Speaker 1: you search using the power of AI. When they first

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Speaker 1: announced it was like ship this is Google's dinner being

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Speaker 1: eaten in front of them. Wow. And the latest thing

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Speaker 1: they did was they do article summaries, which is just

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Speaker 1: otherwise known as stealing, and they ripped an entire Forbes

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Speaker 1: article I believe it was from and it was fantastic writer. Seriously,

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Speaker 1: like Forbes has got its problems with several fucking rocks.

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Speaker 2: But tech tsk is great.

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Speaker 1: And so you have this thing where it would generate

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Speaker 1: this story and just rip it off. And they ripped

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Speaker 1: off the Forbes story. And then when Forbes complained, John

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Speaker 1: Pachowski is John and he just ripped them public and

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Speaker 1: so Perplexity's answer was to add citations at the top

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Speaker 1: to four or five places that had aggregated.

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Speaker 2: The yeah story.

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Speaker 1: And it's just like, this is the thing. I do

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Speaker 1: not understand why the tech media is not more antagonistic

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Speaker 1: to these people, because fucking how, come on, man, don't

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Speaker 1: steal my shit. You've already been doing it. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it feels at this point like some of the tech

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Speaker 1: media are kind of like trying to kick that football

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Speaker 1: at Charlie Brown. Yeah, they won't screw us over this time,

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Speaker 1: And then they do and it's even worse than before.

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Speaker 4: But I don't know if it's like a level of

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Speaker 4: complacency though, it's just like, I don't know. It just

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Speaker 4: seems like people are so tired and everyone's getting fired

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Speaker 4: and things are We're so over, you know, we're so cooked.

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Speaker 5: It's like it's like, what do we do ever been

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Speaker 5: so bad? So I feel like that's a bit of

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Speaker 5: it as well. At least that's what it feels like

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Speaker 5: to me, is people are like this sucks. I don't

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Speaker 5: know what to do.

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Speaker 1: Also, what's weird as well is everyone's acting like tech

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Speaker 1: isn't fun anymore, and it isn't. When you look at

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Speaker 1: what's in the tech media now there is. I'll send

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Speaker 1: this to Max zep from tech Crunch. Lovely Fella used

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Speaker 1: to be a Gizmodo. I was talking to him about

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Speaker 1: this and it's like, take is this industry when you

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Speaker 1: look at it that combines the best of sports journalism,

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Speaker 1: financial journalism, entertainment journalism, and gossip. There's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: weird freaks, strange little weirdos like Sam Altman in this

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Speaker 1: weird broken house. He's like, I don't know why my

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Speaker 1: house is so sharing, like ship into the yard a coyotes.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Samman is currently suing the people who

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Speaker 1: sold him a house.

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Speaker 5: In diligence on as well, because he.

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Speaker 1: Did no inspection and like a coyote took up residents

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Speaker 1: in his backyard, bloody to his house. It's like, I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I lost money as he drives like a

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Speaker 1: five million dollar ugly assed car.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh yeah, I didn't even know. I've never even

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Speaker 3: heard of that car in my life. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: saw THEE.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying anyone should do this, but if someone

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Speaker 1: let out the tires, very funny.

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Speaker 2: No comment.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm not saying anyone should do it, but if

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Speaker 1: it happened unrelated to me, especially legally speaking, take picture

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Speaker 1: easy better offline dot com, email me THEE.

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Speaker 5: I did say he was busy this weekend, so that

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Speaker 5: makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah, and it's it's definitely not just hanging

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Speaker 1: out with my friend and drinking a bunch of beers.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is, like that is great gossip journalism,

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Speaker 1: Like that's just fun.

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Speaker 2: She gives a shit.

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Speaker 1: Katen the Topless BI has done a really good job

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Speaker 1: at this as well, Like there's so much fun in

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Speaker 1: this industry. I just bought this weird little thing called

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Speaker 1: a GPD Win four and it's like a thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: little computer. It looks like a PlayStation VT. You can

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Speaker 1: run Windows on, it's playing Diablo four on it. That

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Speaker 1: shit's fun. And you've got this weird crap being made

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Speaker 1: in China. Now we can't possibly touch it compossibly. Weve

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Speaker 1: got to talk about Sam Mortman's magic broken API. Thing

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Speaker 1: kind of sucks. And it's just I think that.

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Speaker 4: Tech journalists touch a lot of I mean, I think

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Speaker 4: that's like a narrow vision of what we're talking about.

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Speaker 5: It's the most popular stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if it's the most written about. Though.

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Speaker 1: It feels like we've gotten away from the time when

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Speaker 1: we talked about the fun shit. Yeah when it talks,

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Speaker 1: because it's like the money isn't there, and I think

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Speaker 1: that that really is it. Like the money to your point,

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Speaker 1: we have to cover open AI to some extent because

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Speaker 1: even if they are building nothing, they're taking a lot

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Speaker 1: of money to do so, and they're making potentially one

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Speaker 1: hundred billion dollar deals with Microsoft to build a supercomputer.

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Speaker 1: But it feels like the funds just kind of got

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Speaker 1: like we're not enjoying I don't everyone I talked to

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Speaker 1: is kind of just like to your point, kind of

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Speaker 1: like tired, yeah, and everything so on fine, Like I

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Speaker 1: think the I would like it if open Ai actually

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Speaker 1: did what they claim they were doing. That would be interesting.

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Speaker 1: I don't want jobs to go away, but I'd love

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Speaker 1: like the computer to be smart. I love my phone

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Speaker 1: to work sometimes like intelligence Intelligence Tim cooked and he.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if.

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Speaker 1: It was an episode, but it's just it's frustrating because

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Speaker 1: there is real joy and really interesting ship, like even

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Speaker 1: in the Valley. But it feels like there's less journalists

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco these days. They still are here, but

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Speaker 1: there's not as many. It's not like twenty fourteen twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen when you had weird indie go go freaks and hackathons,

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Speaker 1: which is still happening. But they're not getting me attention.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what is I think.

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Speaker 5: I don't know the people in San Francisco. The journalists

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 4: I have like a twenty twenty five people deep group

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Speaker 4: chap just young tech journalists, well not all tech, but

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Speaker 4: journalists in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: People in one chat yeah whatever the sms or.

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Speaker 5: Like wha, yeah, it's just a bunch of wack.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 5: But they exist.

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Speaker 4: I think they're still figuring it out and you know,

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Speaker 4: but not to plug my own company. But it's the

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Speaker 4: reason I went to the Verge is because it's just like,

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Speaker 4: will you pay me to write weird shit? And that's

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Speaker 4: all they do. I mean, they just did a bunch

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Speaker 4: of posts on Legos the other day, like.

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Speaker 3: The yeah oh that I saw that ye yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: I literally this morning and I work slack.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I sort of miss blogging, like it

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Speaker 3: was very it's very yeah.

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Speaker 4: Posting just let me just let me say whatever, and

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Speaker 4: they do, like I can really just go at it

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Speaker 4: with any I love blogging. That's why I got into

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Speaker 4: tech reporting.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like that is actually text salvation.

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Speaker 2: Hm, it's blogging.

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Speaker 5: Save the blog.

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Speaker 1: I'm not serious, because it's the thing I wrote today,

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Speaker 1: which will become a script and you're gonna read it

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Speaker 1: and then you're gonna hear it. You'd be like the

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Speaker 1: newsletter and the podcast was similar, and you fucking do

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Speaker 1: an episode anyway. But writing that up and being able

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Speaker 1: to go at it, and I'd realize them in a

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Speaker 1: different position to you too. But it's like opinion journalism,

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Speaker 1: even just even if the opinion is I like it

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Speaker 1: and it's good something some life all things digital when

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Speaker 1: there and some great writers came out of There's a

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Speaker 1: Beast and once again I'll apologize missread Ronny stories and

433
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Speaker 1: made a snarky tweet. You have my ass forever. You've

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Speaker 1: got to get give them wrong. But that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It feels like TECK has got so rigid and it's

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Speaker 1: turned into almost different aberrations of Bloomberg type things. But

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Speaker 1: then you occasionally get something out of the journal and

438
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,719
Speaker 1: that's very presient where it's like the training date ya one.

439
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: It just yeah, it doesn't feel like tech journalism is

440
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: given the freedom it needs to actually deal with the tech.

441
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,919
Speaker 5: Industry totally, totally.

442
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 4: I haven't had that experience of writing analysis until I

443
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 4: came to The Verge, and it was kind of beaten

444
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 4: out of me in a sense, is that you're really

445
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 4: not supposed to have an opinion, and you're really supposed

446
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 4: to be, you know, just just very very neutral. And

447
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: then I found a lot of the people who follow

448
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 4: my work really liked when I said what I thought

449
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 4: about a specific topic, which is I know, silly and

450
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 4: kind of a given for many people, but I think

451
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 4: it's it's valuable.

452
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: You know, did you come up in traditional orgs.

453
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 5: I came.

454
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,719
Speaker 4: I started at BI so that was I was a

455
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 4: software developer culture reporter. So it was like this software

456
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 4: developer built this project and they're doing this ye know.

457
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 5: Which which was so fun.

458
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 4: But then it was like scoop City, Peloton stuff, so

459
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 4: that's very you know, and then it just and then

460
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 4: I came to Fortune and then it was all Twitter

461
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 4: Fortune Magazine, so it was all Twitter reporting the implosion

462
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 4: ex Twitter, and so then that wasn't so fun. I mean,

463
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 4: it was really fun as a journalist, and then the

464
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 4: audience is like, I'm really tired of hearing about this, honestly,

465
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 4: So yeah, now I get to do more of the

466
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 4: like analysis.

467
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: Just what sticks out to me is when you really

468
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: take a step back, this entire industry is just what

469
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: did Sam Oltman get up to you today? Oh my goodness?

470
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: And he had a bit of that with what with

471
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: w w DC. You have people taking a photo of

472
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: him and then he did nothing, which is I love

473
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: that Tim Cook humiliated him. I didn't see it that, no, no, no,

474
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: he didn't say anything about him. Sam Wilton was there

475
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: and everyone was posting pictures of so yeah, and then

476
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: no mention of s going to get up, and says

477
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 1: Tim Cook, And there was a picture of Eddie Q

478
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: talking to Samueltman and he looked like he was kind

479
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: of ripping him.

480
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: It was great.

481
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was like a normal conversation, but I'd

482
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: like to believe.

483
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 6: It was like okay here and I said, sit at

484
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 6: the back, Samuel, I did I have heard more of

485
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 6: the It's actually really interesting because like there was this

486
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 6: period of like, let's I mean, this is in my head,

487
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 6: but I feel like there was the like heyday of

488
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 6: tech where it was like guys and hoodies and everyone

489
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 6: was like, ooh, this is aspirational.

490
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 3: Then we went through like a correction of like more

491
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: accountability journalism and like everyone's going after X company or whatever,

492
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: and like I think that exists to some degree now

493
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: still in a big way. But I also feel like

494
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 3: there's maybe a push from some folks with the sentiment

495
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 3: that you're giving, which is like can we is there

496
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: like fun or interesting or aspirational things that we can

497
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 3: write about or think about again that we miss hearing about,

498
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: which I've.

499
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: Been I've been thinking about a lot more.

500
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 3: It's like it's weird, like to like historically I feel

501
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: like I've done a lot more of the like critical stuff,

502
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: but I like there are interesting things going on that

503
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 3: maybe we could focus on. But it's also not like

504
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 3: an either or you know, like I still feel like

505
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: you can do both of those things. It's just figuring

506
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: out who can do that and who wants to do that,

507
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: maybe totally.

508
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: And it's advice that so both Kylie and I share

509
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: the same mentor the wonderful Matt Weinberger. I see enough

510
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: to this the guys sen say bloggers. And one of

511
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: the things he said to me, and I'm sure he

512
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: said to you is people come to you for your voice.

513
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: And it's true, and it sucks because you have so

514
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: many people like you, Mike. I'm not saying anything's wrong

515
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: with the times, but it's not like your style comes

516
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: through there is.

517
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: It's like a house style. Yeah I have to sort

518
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: of yeah.

519
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: But also an interesting fucking fellow and it doesn't get

520
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: to come through. And Fard we need far haadback.

521
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 5: Mike's sweets for sure.

522
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: Far had He did the thing about men not washing

523
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: their asses, and I was like.

524
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: God, that was a good If you've not heard of him,

525
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: he is a writer, is a Slate.

526
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: He's at the New York Times, and he would just

527
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: a lot of his articles have just him going like

528
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: the American Adrian chills, Yeah.

529
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: Adrian Childs, Yeah, guy who writes like I have a.

530
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: Urinal in my house and my guests are upset far

531
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: had did and kind of what Kate in the Topless

532
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: is doing business inside it. And I swear to God

533
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: that is where tech finds its salvation because all of

534
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: this financialization of everything is just fucking boring. I'm sorry,

535
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: I will do I do my episodes about it, but

536
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: I'm pissed off for many reasons at all times. But

537
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: a lot of it is cutting through the financial stuff

538
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: to say, what's actually happening. Why did Google Search get worse?

539
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: It wasn't because like the computer got unplugged. It's because

540
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: of organizational issues. Why does that happen? It's a cultural issue.

541
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: It's the push of management. But it's when you incentivize

542
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: an entire assystem to growth. Goh blah blah blah blah.

543
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: Everyone's heard those rants. But the actual fund is the

544
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: weird ship being built. It doesn't have to be perfect.

545
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: When I had Alex Krantz in the Verge on for

546
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: an episode the very first Better Off Live. She was

547
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: talking about these gaming the same like the gpd wan

548
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: for these weird gaming things, and she's like, it's kind

549
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: of shit, but I love them. Yeah, I feel like

550
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: that is tech to me more than anything. It's these weird,

551
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: quirky things. Like the first gadget I ever really am

552
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: is like a creative nomad CD player sized MP three players.

553
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 3: Wait, it was that huge chunky I had that too,

554
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: because it was like a fat piece of shit.

555
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: But it could hold five thousand song.

556
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: It's all good. Five thousand at the time is incredible.

557
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: Love that and it's weird.

558
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: It's like tech doesn't have to be perfect, but it

559
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: has to do something. But the tech industry right now

560
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: feels like it's not perfect, but it's also not good totally.

561
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: It's just we need to get back. We need crunch

562
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 1: gear back crunch gear. Crunch gear was the tech they

563
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: did the gadget thing Neving called away. Legend met him

564
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: in Canada about a month and a half ago. Legend

565
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: just why about any old ship and it's fun and

566
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I feel like I will say that Bloomberg

567
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: when it comes to financial coverage, is actually excellent and

568
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: also Ed Ludlow is for Bloomberg TV. Surprisingly he is everywhere. Yeah,

569
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: but it's I feel like we lean less financial for journalism.

570
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: We don't no one's getting anything. It's all people. This

571
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: is not putting anyone on blast his specifically, but no

572
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: one's getting an actual scoop about open AI right now.

573
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, all the like real meaty stuff is kind of

574
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: I mean, well, I think they have a lot at

575
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: stake because everyone's sort of locked down and shut up because.

576
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 5: It's and they're making a lot of money.

577
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 3: Exactly, Like why would they they talk shit when they're

578
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: gonna make it?

579
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 7: But open ai isn't know, but I think the verticals

580
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 7: the reason so I actually I think about this a

581
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 7: lot is like how can we how does coverage like

582
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 7: change or how can like big.

583
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 3: Companies or big institutions like mine or like whatever like

584
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 3: do that, And like a lot of it is down

585
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: to Okay, a business desk needs a beat reporter for X,

586
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: Y and Z companies because this is how you is

587
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: how you do it or this is how we do it,

588
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 3: and like it's a business desk, so it has to

589
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: have like some form of financial angle. But at the

590
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: same time, like over the past few years, are we

591
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 3: doing more accountability stuff or does this have nothing to

592
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 3: do with the business, you know, And like a lot

593
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 3: of the times, it can feel very just sort of

594
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: confused to me, confused.

595
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: On what the what is the mission here?

596
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 3: Are we saying this is a bad business because it's

597
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: not making money? Are we saying it's a bad company

598
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: because it's bad for the world in X, Y or

599
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: Z way, you know, And the stories kind of feel

600
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 3: schizophrenic or like at odds with one another, and like

601
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know if that's a you

602
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: have to define that.

603
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: And then like just also like I can just speak

604
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: with the times.

605
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: It's like very like this is what a reporter is

606
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: versus an opinion person. And like coming from like blog land,

607
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: I have less I like blurring those lines a little

608
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 3: bit more. But I also work here, so it's one

609
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: of those things, you know.

610
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, Fortune was very much like that, where it's a

611
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 4: very specific tone and we had discussed this before and

612
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: at the verge it really is. I mean, like I

613
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: just I barely get edited. It's just whatever I'm writing

614
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: at any given time.

615
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 5: Which is fun because it feels like a personal thing.

616
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: And that's why Misato, for example, she rucks why she

617
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: has been the one person getting se O right. Mea

618
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: open invite to the show. Fantastic look at Misto the Verge,

619
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: because she is one of the only people who actually

620
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: got se O right, and she got it right like

621
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: a year before everyone else, including myself totally Like she

622
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: whipped my ass on that one. I've had to site.

623
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: It works so much, it's great. That's because of the

624
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: open remit of The Verge. Now I have my critiques

625
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: of The Verge. You're not going to bring up to

626
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: day because next episode write me. But that kind of

627
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: open format reminds me of all things digital, which for

628
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: listeners who didn't know it was like a kind of

629
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: a predecessor to the Wall Street Journal's Tech desk. And

630
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: Kara Swisher, who I will rip to ship on another episode,

631
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: is pretty good at mentorship though and team building.

632
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: Who's great a talent.

633
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: She helped me a lot, and that's the thing, Like

634
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: I go on Carrot a lot and I'll continue to

635
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: do so come on the show, Carl, let's work this out.

636
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: That would be great, Actually, I would love it.

637
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: She not responded to my emails. I can't imagine why.

638
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: But the one thing she did was she can't let

639
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: you guys go loose. And that's why you had like

640
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Jason Delray, who was one of the best e commerce reporters.

641
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: He's a fortune now Fantastic News. I didn't actually know that.

642
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: And you, Mike, you got your start there, Jowski, I

643
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: believe as well.

644
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: Like Pat's great. I can't remember, no it.

645
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: Was, but you he was a plastic writer early, one

646
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: of the best mobile reporters. And also Kara Swisher was there.

647
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: And but what made that good was it was kind

648
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: of messy. People just went at some ship and it

649
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: was good. It was and it was actually at the

650
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: right time. It was not critical enough. But I don't

651
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: think that that was. No one was critical at that time.

652
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: That's right. I think that. I think that.

653
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 3: I so, yes, A, I think Kars was really good

654
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: at spot. I mean, just take myself out of it.

655
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: I think she was good at like she did this

656
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: recode later just like figure out who's hungry, who's like

657
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: not been around and jaded for long enough and wants

658
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: to like hit it hard and then go back to

659
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: them and like fortunately I was twenty three at the time,

660
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: so I had more energy than I do now, but

661
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: or no, twenty five. Fuck, I don't know, but maybe

662
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: twenty five. But I that is I think about that

663
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: a lot, just in the like actually Cope used to

664
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: tell me this a lot, which was he was like

665
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: in a lot of places, you're asked to like do

666
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 3: a story and then go get an analyst who can like, yeah,

667
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: put like pat quote in you know or whatever, and like, look,

668
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: there's there is they can say a thing that and

669
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: sometimes when I call these people they do give me

670
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: actually like good er original insights, but like you can

671
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: also just say what you think based on your expertise

672
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: of the matter and like it like assuming you know

673
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: what you're talking about or whatever, just have done the

674
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: reporting in the background to get to a point where

675
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: you know where you're talking about. Like people respond to that,

676
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: you know. And I think Twitter has been like my

677
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: hack or work around for a long time until before

678
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: it like fucking broke. But like I think that, yeah,

679
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: that just sort of I'm trying to think of like

680
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: where that exists really now?

681
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean besides what you guys do all.

682
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 5: Things decreated some like just monster reporters and to.

683
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 4: Hear that you guys got that kind of freedom really

684
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: early on, and like early in your career too, to

685
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 4: be like, dude, you know this, you spend all your

686
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: time working on this, like say what you think here

687
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 4: in Yeah, And I think.

688
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: These conditions also created. And I'm not saying it's anyone

689
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: in the media's fault, because it's not the media's job

690
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: to stop them running shitty companies. But I believe that

691
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: that period where and it's like the really the late

692
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: twenty tens where the media just kind of was like,

693
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: we trust these guys, right, and then we couldn't like

694
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: we like And I'm not even trying to be nihilistic

695
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: saying you can't trust the single te fun but I

696
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: don't know. I wouldn't have trust Mark Zuckerberg. He's a

697
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: very damn looking guy as well. But trusting these companies

698
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: was a mistake. But also when the whole industry was

699
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: trying to be enthusiastic because it was fun. Mid twenty

700
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: tens were a lot of fun.

701
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 5: I watched Silicon Valley recently, and Cara's on that.

702
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 3: It really stands up by the way it's really good.

703
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: I actually disagree.

704
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought it was so good.

705
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 5: It was shocking.

706
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: I watched it and all I could think, and this

707
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: is because pr person I'll watch it went it feels

708
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: like people only like it because it's like they're taking

709
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: me seriously. I'll take lunch disruptors in it.

710
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: That real they did, Yeah they did.

711
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 5: That's great.

712
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. I watched it, and I was

713
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: just I think I was just an early cynic. Yeah,

714
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: just like fresh off my first divorce, just like, fuck

715
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: these people, but it's my first. But also it's funny

716
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: because things have soured so quickly that I don't think

717
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: anyone's had time to adjust the irony ears. I think

718
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of to your points as well. The adjustment that

719
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: was made to not trust these companies was to have

720
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: less opinion that a lack of object sorry, a lack

721
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: of objectivity was what the problem was, when actually, I

722
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: think we need more I think we need more people.

723
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: Peter Kafker over at Business Inside of former All Things Digital,

724
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: he has had some of the most presient things and

725
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: business Insider. I can't believe I'm saying this. I do

726
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: work there occasionally has somehow got ahead of everyone with

727
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: the discourse columns.

728
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally good at that.

729
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: But we need more. We need more of the verge.

730
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: We need more of this stuff. We need more four

731
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: o four.

732
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 5: But four or four rocks, four or four rocks.

733
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: But also, come on, let the freaks out, let them

734
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: dogs out. You've got you got Cobler over there, you

735
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: got you got, you got coal, You've got all these

736
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: people who can have just the most ass opinions.

737
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's also like this insane distrust in media as well.

738
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 5: Come on with it.

739
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 4: So like if you've seen like you have an opinion,

740
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 4: or if you vote a certain way or anything, it's like, oh, well,

741
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 4: they're just like a plant.

742
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 5: I actually had someone ask me. I won't say who.

743
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 4: I'll tell you guys after the podcast, but who asked

744
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 4: me if I believe that there's like Chinese spies.

745
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 5: And media, I'm not even kidding me.

746
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: Damn, you guys.

747
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 5: Definitely know who this is. But anyways, I actually.

748
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: Don't have Actually, so.

749
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 5: Anyways, there's like this crazy distrust.

750
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 4: And so when I was coming onto the scene, I'm like, okay,

751
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 4: like I don't want anyone to think that I'm going

752
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 4: to Jesus Christ. But yeah, so I think it's really

753
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: banged into you at that point. It's just like, Okay,

754
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 4: everyone kind of hates us and doesn't trust us, Like,

755
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 4: so why should we get to have an opinion?

756
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: I do think there's some So I have to be

757
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: careful anyways, just because of where I work and because

758
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: I will get a handslap if I go too far.

759
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: But like so I kind of know where my internal

760
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: line is, if that makes sense. But like there is

761
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 3: some element of strategy in holding back sometimes if it

762
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 3: makes If that makes sense.

763
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 5: Like you have to say it.

764
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 4: You can let the reader like show them, you know,

765
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 4: and let the reader have that opinions.

766
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I.

767
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 2: Just think that. Like, look, I think there's two ways.

768
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 3: There's a few ways to go about just from a

769
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: reporting sense, Like I know reporters who are very outspoken

770
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 3: of their point of view, and that works as a

771
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 3: sourcing tactic, right, Like they'll be like, okay, people will

772
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 3: come to me because they really I'm not talking about

773
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: the writing side. It's more like a like for me,

774
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 3: like just in reporting, I'm like, all right, I can

775
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: get a range of folks if I'm it's not really

776
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: fence sitting. But I just I I have thoughts that

777
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 3: I don't always put out there, if that which makes sense,

778
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: and I think it works to an extent, you know, like,

779
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: but also there's different strategies.

780
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: I know guys who are just like yeah and whatever.

781
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 5: That's also a strategy.

782
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally it is.

783
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: But also I don't get done Like it's not like

784
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: you get random people from Google being like you should

785
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: hear the ship. I'm like, great, what do I do

786
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: with this?

787
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: Use it? Man?

788
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: I have with other people and went by the way,

789
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: if I send you a story and you don't pick

790
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: it up. Some exceptions there, of course, I will remember

791
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about anyone in this room, just to

792
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: be clear. But the thing is, I think that there

793
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: is a kind of a fallacy there, which is if

794
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: you don't have an opinion, if you're objective, people are

795
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: still going to say you're not objective. They're still going

796
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: to be like, well, reading between the lines here, what

797
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: you think is like, no, I wrote this, I know

798
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: what I think, Well, why is it said this because

799
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: of the editor? And they're like, well, so they are

800
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: also in the pocket of China or someone else. And

801
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: it's just it it almost feels like there's not enough

802
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: solidarity between the tech media writ large, but also on

803
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: the editorial the higher editorial side. There's not really a

804
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: back the fucking or forever, right.

805
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 3: I do think that putting each we all are very competitive,

806
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: and like, one thing that actually really bothers me is

807
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: when companies use this to their advantage and like play

808
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: us off of each other, and like plant they know

809
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: X Person's about to write this, so they're going to

810
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: go to why person and plant it, and or like god,

811
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 3: there's one person who I won't name, who does this

812
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 3: a lot and gets spun by a different company to

813
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: go after reporter stories, which is another great tactic that

814
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: companies use. But it's to your thing about like the

815
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: solidarity and press should be more of a thing.

816
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: Well, so if someone is doing that, honestly the best thing.

817
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: And I know that no one would actually do this,

818
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: but I'm a gremlin, so I would. If I heard

819
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: that happening, I would just tell everyone. But that would

820
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: that's the way to stop that.

821
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 4: That's how it all works. I don't think it's just

822
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 4: it's not just one person.

823
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 5: It's how it all works.

824
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, yeah, the oppositional stuff. It's difficult. And I

825
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: think the part of the reason I brought you in

826
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: here was I kind of want the listeners to understan

827
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: than the chaos of this stuff and how multi lad

828
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: the problems are at the media face in tech because

829
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: it's such a weird time and it's you've got tech

830
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 1: crunch under new management. You've got fortune under basically old

831
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: business inside of people at time a fortune.

832
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: Mink still owns fortune, right is that not even Jesus,

833
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: let's get you up to dig.

834
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's the listeners. This is important to know.

835
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: These are lets are being built and.

836
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 5: Sold owns time now.

837
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: And by the way, did you too read the Time

838
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: And I'm doing air quotes listeners. Article about Ariana Huffington

839
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: and Sam Ormond's new health.

840
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: I didn't read it, now. How is that he really.

841
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 4: Liked it, Charlie Warzaw, I haven't finished the article, but

842
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 4: he like lee paragraph.

843
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 5: Have you read his read up?

844
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: I have?

845
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm sorry of your opinions. Yeah, I read like

846
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 4: the for two paragraphs. It feels like he rips them.

847
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, paper Machette thinking of But it's good article and

848
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: he also has a smart point about the belief and

849
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: I'll include links. Don't worry listeners, Jesus Christ. But the

850
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: problem with that was was he was in front of

851
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: Sam Altman and asked him the limpest questions I've ever

852
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: heard in my fucking life. Charlie, go for the fucking throat,

853
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: choke him out. Maybe he likes it, don't know. But

854
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: it's this article, which was a press release.

855
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: Or something.

856
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, dog shit, it was a joint written between Arianna

857
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: Huffington and Sam Ortman and the secret version of chat GBT.

858
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: That's even worse, and it just sucked. And it was

859
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: all of these made up things about how like AI

860
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: and healthcare will into play, and it was a disappointing

861
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: moment for me in the media. Though Charlie did a

862
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: great job doing what he did, and there was a

863
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: guy at Slater also did a good job, but everyone

864
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: was just there was a bunch of other people just

865
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: reporting this thing, just blandly. And I don't think that

866
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 1: people realize how terrible it is for trust with the media,

867
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: because what a normal person and I know, like I

868
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: put a past plint my hairdresser and shit, like I'm like,

869
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: look at shit. And it was like regular people like, yeah,

870
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: this sounds fucking stupid. Yeah, But this whole financialization of

871
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: the tech media, this whole situation where the money is

872
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: kind of controlling things. Is just leading to this point

873
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: where these things are going past, and at some point

874
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: I worry that we're going to have the equivalent of

875
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: what's happened in politics. I say, this is someone who

876
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: will stand to benefit if this happens, So I apologize

877
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: to everyone. But the distrust in the media is going

878
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: to come to tech, and I think, and we'll get

879
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: to it after the ad break coming up. The whole

880
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: thing with CrowdStrike, for example, Everyone's kind of reporting what's happened,

881
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: but not why, and I think the why is what

882
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: people really need. Right now. Everyone's seen years years of

883
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: the tech industry kind of fall on its face and

884
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: break its dick off and look terrible everywhere, while also

885
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: being told these people are richer than ever while the

886
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: products get worse. And I feel like we need as

887
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: the industry as the media industry, which I guess I'm

888
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: kind of in right.

889
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 5: You're fully in it. You have a podcast.

890
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: It's just I don't think people realize at some point

891
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: a racist tech publication is going to pop up. Pirate

892
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: Wires is not going to get be it because it's

893
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: so poorly written. Do not read it is so bad

894
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: unless you want to laugh, and also turn on ad blocker,

895
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: don't subscribe, don't give them any data. But at some

896
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: point this whole techno fascist movement into the whole techno optimist,

897
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: which just means fascist when you're quoting Nick Lan, Fuck

898
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: you andresen. But that's my opinion. I guess it just

899
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: feels like we're in this point where tech media needs

900
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: to grow up, grow up, or just grow in a

901
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: better direction, because otherwise there is going to be a

902
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: competitor and it's going to be so much worse. I'm

903
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: just worried. I'm just a bit worried about the consequences

904
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: of the lack of trust in media. It's gonna happen.

905
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: When are we gonna do something.

906
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: Very curious if they can You remember Andrews and Horwitz

907
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 3: put that put publication together, Yeah yeah, and then it

908
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: no one published because like they really realized that, Like

909
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: I mean, getting people to write is hard, getting them

910
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: to like commit to do it and have like a

911
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: regular cadence on doing it, and like turn in your

912
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 3: copy is hard, and like I think they.

913
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 5: Media is hard. Yeah, Like I think.

914
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 3: They got ahead of their schemes on that. Like people

915
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: can riff or whatever, but like it's just I am

916
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 3: waiting to see what that looks like. And I think

917
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: that's why they bet so big on substack, because their

918
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 3: whole thing is like, all right, if we don't do

919
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 3: an in house thing, then maybe we'll get a legion

920
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 3: of people to do it on their own, and then

921
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 3: like they can sort of like aggregate that in like

922
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: however subtect does. But like, yeah, I'm I'm, I'm I'm

923
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 3: wondering if it's like less an institutional publication and more

924
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 3: like random bloggers who everyone sort of subscribes to and

925
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: to your point, like just sort of like a fasci

926
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 3: version of what tech coverage would look like becomes more

927
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 3: of a thing.

928
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: I don't know.

929
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: So let me ask you a question. What is a podcast?

930
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: Miserable little pile of secrets? But nevertheless, how about you

931
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: have an ad break and we're back. We're back with

932
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: Better Off Live episode two, which is like episode thirty

933
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: two of this show, Good Lord, And of course today

934
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: is the crowd strike situation, and there's an episode about it.

935
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: We'll get to it, but this feels like to me,

936
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: at least, we're not gonna get into the technicalities don't worry,

937
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: because I am certainly not prepared. Right with the crowd

938
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: strikes situation, it feels like the beginning of something more

939
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: than the end. It feels like the final punishment of

940
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: the move fast and break things generate. And my biggest worry,

941
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: and I raised this in the newsletter, is how do

942
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: people think this is going to improve? Because so the

943
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: very basic level is an update that went through CrowdStrike

944
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: that's in basically every Windows machine, especially the enterprise ones,

945
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: fucked everything up, did a massive kurdl panic and everything. Sure,

946
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: by the time I say this, there's already a tweet

947
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: out there that proves me wrong. But nevertheless, put it again.

948
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: On rad this is where we are.

949
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: It feels like we're in a situation where organizations just

950
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: fire and hire people so goddamn much that this has

951
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: to happen again, Like there's something something like this is inevitable,

952
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: especially when you've got generative code, You've got more less

953
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: software engineers generating more code, and the people above and

954
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,959
Speaker 1: below them are being fired at random. It's the first

955
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: time I felt scared in this industry. And I moved

956
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: to America in two thousand and eight.

957
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, good time.

958
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do

959
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: with it. And also I mean other than the three

960
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 1: thousand word news but it's I'm just a bit scared

961
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: because it feels like every tech company is wrung just

962
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: in this very messy way, like they're still in the

963
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: startup mode but also huge.

964
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: I don't know if it like I don't know the thing.

965
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: Maybe this is naive, but like I often like think

966
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: about things in the window of what is it called

967
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: Handlan's razor, which is like, don't attribute to malice, which

968
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 3: could be more often chalked up to stupidity or incompetence, right,

969
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: And like I feel like there to be clear, there

970
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: are very many bad people in the world doing bad things,

971
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 3: but like a lot of the time it's just like

972
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: dumb shit. Someone pushed like a thing to production instead

973
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 3: of the test code environment or whatever, and now you

974
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 3: took down half the fucking world.

975
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: Right, So like I don't I don't know.

976
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's like better or worse than

977
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 3: people maliciously doing things.

978
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: But if I'm sound it, I don't think someone at

979
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: CrowdStrike was like, right, I'm gonna crash every window computer.

980
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: Excellent bit that would be I mean a good bit. Yeah, yeah,

981
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: just to see what I was doing a bit. No,

982
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: I think that the problem is Hanlan's razor here is

983
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: that just tech companies like we must grow, we must grow,

984
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: and if something breaks, will fix it. Right Mmm, totally,

985
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: except they don't seem to have fixed it yet still broken,

986
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: might still stuck at the airport.

987
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 2: I'm glad you flew in early, I guess, yeah, and I.

988
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: Was nearly delayed due to thunder in Vegas. I don't know.

989
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: But also this feels like a situation where the tech

990
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: media is going to have trouble covering it because it's

991
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: so complex.

992
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bout out early this morning.

993
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

994
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 3: I no, I mean, I do think that's where tech reporters,

995
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: if they're super into it, can like shine. And I

996
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: don't think cybersecurity reporting is like as much of a

997
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 3: specialty at mainstream publications. It's like like it's like random,

998
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 3: Like the guy Brian Krebs is like his independent dude

999
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 3: who he used to work at the Post but now

1000
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 3: he's just a hardcore security researcher guy who has his

1001
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 3: own blog and everyone in the security industry trust him. Basically,

1002
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 3: and like but yeah, like that, I mean, yeah, yes,

1003
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 3: who's great Joe Cox, Joe is awesome. Uh So, like you,

1004
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: there's a version of this that could shine. But I

1005
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 3: think you're I'm very curious. There are already like things

1006
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 3: blaming well, actually you might have a different take on this.

1007
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 3: There are things that are blaming Microsoft that are uh

1008
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 3: there was like a headline that was like Microsoft fucks

1009
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: up the whole world or whatever, right right, and like,

1010
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: technically it wasn't their fault, but your your position is

1011
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 3: ultimately it is their.

1012
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: Fault, yes, because they Microsoft runs Windows. But also the

1013
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: reason the CrowdStrike managed to fuck up so much is

1014
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: because Microsoft could have built this themselves and indeed have

1015
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: a competing product, a Falcon. There was a whole exlusive

1016
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: explanation for that, but it kind of sucks, and they

1017
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: were like, we could save money just giving it to

1018
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: this other giant public company who was only worth eighty

1019
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: nine billion, and is both of their thoughts, but this

1020
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: is a situation where and what was it I was

1021
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: reading the other day We just had him on the show,

1022
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: an economist called Darren Usimoglu. I'm probably saying his name wrong.

1023
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: Mit just interviewed him. I should know it better by now,

1024
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: it's been a long day down but he said that

1025
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: there should be criminal prosecution. CEOs will actually fully fucking agree. Yeah,

1026
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: I know this sounds crazy, but if you break half

1027
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: the world's computers, you should go to fucking prison. Satcha

1028
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: in cuffs today, hot take to have sounds hit that

1029
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: I'm only fifty percent joking because if your direct decisions

1030
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: and neither I know both of you don't want to

1031
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: touch this with.

1032
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: A we can talk about it in an abstract.

1033
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: But also just giving it making it clear that I

1034
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: can say the crazy shit. But it feels like that aren't.

1035
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: And Duron's argument is not put them all in chains.

1036
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: It's these consequences should exist.

1037
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 5: And consequences should exist.

1038
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: Yes, the back of them is why these things keep happening. Because, Okay,

1039
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: an FDC find that finds Facebook four billion dollars is

1040
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: bad for the homogenous lump. That is meta, but it

1041
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: isn't like Mark Zuckerberg has any fear there.

1042
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: And it was pretty good when he had apologized to

1043
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 4: the families stood up in court.

1044
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 5: But I don't think that's real consequence, you know.

1045
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: Slightly embarrassing for the man without feelings and it's it's

1046
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: just Sachy Nadella should have a criminal a criminal inquiry here.

1047
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: There should be an actual Department of Justice investigation into this.

1048
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: With both CrowdStrike and Microsoft, there will not be. I

1049
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: had one hundred percent of they might be a Senate

1050
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: hearing if we're lay. But it's all of these CEOs.

1051
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: They operate in this weird kind of bubble where oh,

1052
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: it's a corporate thing. We don't get angry at people

1053
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: for corporate things. But if I went around because I

1054
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: was the Flash I assume, and smashed every like five

1055
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 1: hundred thousand computers with a big crow bar, if they

1056
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: could catch me, but I'm the Flash, they couldn't. They

1057
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: would put me in jail. Have to be I don't know.

1058
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the raft from Spider Man of mixing

1059
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: up my Marvel and DC right now. But nevertheless, it's

1060
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: like this person who smashed a bunch of computers would

1061
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 1: go to jail, but the person who's direct decision making

1062
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: was the reason that all of these computers went down,

1063
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,479
Speaker 1: they're fine. And it's like, it feels like that needs

1064
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: to have there needs to be some regulation of this.

1065
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: But also where are the consequences. It's why Sam Altman's

1066
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: accumulated all this power, it's why all of these Steve

1067
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: Jobs horrible man, but he the crimes he committed that. Well,

1068
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: the California DA came after him for welfare. That was

1069
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 1: a form of consequence, and it was extremely effective. He

1070
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,479
Speaker 1: went from being a deadbeat father to a shitty one,

1071
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: which is progress from mister Jobs. And it's just what

1072
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm very much trundling towards is it doesn't feel anything's

1073
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: gonna change as a results of this, right.

1074
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: I think that's right.

1075
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 3: I think that the fines point is really important because

1076
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: I think they just price it into their budget.

1077
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 4: You know, there was a great Times article about training

1078
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 4: data and how these like meta executives in their boardroom were.

1079
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 5: Like, we that was so good. I talk about it

1080
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 5: all the time. These have you seen this?

1081
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 4: I have not these meta executives in their boardroom or wherever.

1082
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 4: They were like, we need training data and we don't

1083
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 4: care if we breaked a law because we need to

1084
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 4: be first.

1085
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 5: And it's so explicit, like we don't care. It's priced in.

1086
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 5: We need to be.

1087
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 4: First, and we don't care if we're stealing content, which

1088
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 4: is crazy.

1089
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: And I will say this, that's where The Times did

1090
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: their job the best.

1091
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 5: That was a really great article people, But the fact.

1092
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: I didn't read it is my fault. But also that

1093
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: should have been fucking CNBC TV every day. That should

1094
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: have been a bigger story. The fact that these companies

1095
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: can operate not just without concern for safety, but basically

1096
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: being like, oh, it's not a fine, it's a fee.

1097
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: M it's insane. But if Mark Zkapa could go to prison,

1098
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't lost a day.

1099
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: I do think a lot of the.

1100
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 3: I have frustrations just because of how I wonder how

1101
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: deep you can go in a mainstream publication on pretty

1102
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: technical stuff before losing people, and like even like i've uh,

1103
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 3: I've been super interested in the open source debate, which is, like,

1104
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: you know, in short, just like should all the code

1105
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 3: for these things.

1106
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 2: Be out there or not?

1107
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: Some people believe it's very dangerous, some people are I

1108
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: think that's over exaggerating it.

1109
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know which one is.

1110
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: Right, by the way, is why I've not done an

1111
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: open source episode, right, I don't know, And.

1112
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's yeah, and like I find that whole

1113
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: thing very interesting, and like I've been trying to write

1114
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: about it a lot, but like I'm like, a lot

1115
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,439
Speaker 3: of this ship is very dense and very and heart

1116
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 3: not just for and there's no like actual answers to

1117
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 3: a lot of it and trying to like get that

1118
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 3: out to a mainstream audience while saying, here's why it's important,

1119
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 3: here's why you should care about it, here's why you

1120
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 3: should read this article in the first place. I think

1121
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 3: gets stopped a lot of the time compared to some

1122
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 3: things that might be easier to grasp.

1123
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: But I don't, you know, and that's not to insult

1124
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:24,760
Speaker 2: the general public.

1125
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 3: It's just sort of like these things that require a

1126
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 3: lot of attention and reading just to like break into

1127
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 3: where the argument starts.

1128
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 4: I've been cut I don't know how many times from

1129
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 4: writing articles because they're too technical or and a thing

1130
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 4: I've had to do lately.

1131
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: Which is so funny.

1132
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, if it's really highly technical or just

1133
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 4: kind of a waste of space, like tokens, how much

1134
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: does this model cost for input output tokens? And I

1135
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 4: didn't include it in a Verge article recently, and the

1136
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 4: comments were like, well, how much does it cost? I

1137
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 4: was like, God, durmit guys, so I replied, I was like,

1138
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 4: I will add it next time, but like, who cares

1139
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 4: about the tokens anyways.

1140
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: I actually see where the readers are coming from.

1141
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 5: If they want it, I want to deliver it to them.

1142
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 4: But if they don't want it and it takes up

1143
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 4: space in their mind and they can't comprehend the material,

1144
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 4: then it's not helpful. So like figuring that out for

1145
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 4: readers can be hard well.

1146
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: So as someone went, like the average better offline and

1147
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: listener is like most of their days taking up like

1148
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: holding people up at gas stations, stealing Catholic converters stuff

1149
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: in that and these people, I'm so sorry. But what

1150
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: I've found is because my listeners are because of I

1151
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: think iHeartRadio because of the way they is. I get

1152
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people who aren't the traditional listeners, and

1153
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: I do love them. And you don't steal Catholic converts

1154
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: unless you do.

1155
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 5: And shout out them.

1156
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: Shout out to the wrong.

1157
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: Uns are cadmium.

1158
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: It's it's what I'm funny is that people actually want

1159
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: things explained more, even the technical stuff. Robert Evans, Surphie

1160
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: Lichten and wonderful people run calls. The all thing is

1161
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 1: to like break it down. Whatever you think is too simple,

1162
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 1: go simpler. And I think people in the media for

1163
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: good reason overestimate how difficult something is to get. And

1164
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: I because when you start explaining stuff and planning, it's

1165
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: just like tokens, for example, very confusing and offuscated things.

1166
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: But it's just isn't it just one token? A word?

1167
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, a character? So it is it's it is

1168
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 4: very simple. But how many times do I explain that

1169
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 4: per article? Every time? I'm like these you know, it's

1170
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 4: kind of a it's like algebra that you have to

1171
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 4: do when you write so many of these articles. If

1172
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 4: the audience wants me to do it, that's you know,

1173
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 4: that's what I told them. I will do it. But

1174
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 4: it's you know, something Weinberger told me is like, if

1175
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 4: you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it,

1176
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 4: you know. And I think about that all the time

1177
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 4: because I feel like I see that all the time

1178
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 4: with tech reporters. No shade is that like you're seeing

1179
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 4: something really complicated, probably because you don't understand it. And

1180
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 4: that's fine, but it's really it's really hard to break

1181
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 4: these complex topics.

1182
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 1: Down early days of the newsletter. I'm just gonna admit

1183
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 1: that definitely happened.

1184
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 5: I did that when I was a young reporter. I

1185
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 5: still am a young reporter, but.

1186
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: Still still though it's and I think it's because it's

1187
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: just media is kind of hot and take. You do

1188
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: actually have to understand a lot of shit. Y Yeah,

1189
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: like especially with the general Avai I said. And it's

1190
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: funny because as much I bang on about people not

1191
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: doing it right, it is extremely annoying to explain yes.

1192
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 5: Every single time.

1193
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 4: It feels like you have to include so much context

1194
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 4: and it's like when is this helpful for the reader

1195
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 4: and not kind of like X formerly Twitter all the

1196
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 4: readers really please just stop saying formally, Twitter.

1197
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: Stop my epic based website, Please stop stop dead naming.

1198
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: I do feel like.

1199
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: It's it's very I think they're a different challenges.

1200
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 3: Okay, Like I'll explain it just in terms of like

1201
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 3: the Times challenge, which is like who are you trying

1202
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 3: to reach? Who's reading this? Uh, what is the like

1203
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 3: format for what you're writing sort of thing? And like

1204
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 3: I I like to what you were saying, I definitely

1205
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 3: don't I think readers are can be smart and curious

1206
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 3: about what's happening in the world, and I don't think

1207
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: treating them like idiots is the right way to go.

1208
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: I do think it's like, how do you present that

1209
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 3: in a way that doesn't either derail the story you're

1210
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 3: trying to tell or make your story three times longer

1211
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: than it might need to be, or whatever, which I

1212
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 3: think as like a tangent like length is often equated

1213
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 3: with quality, which I don't think.

1214
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: Is always the case.

1215
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, I think in the media industry, like someone's like,

1216
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 3: we dropped a five thousand word piece, and I'm like, eh,

1217
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 3: I think they could be like a two thousand word

1218
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 3: piece throught that, but like, and that's not always a case,

1219
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 3: but like, I just think that you can probably do

1220
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 3: it in different like formats or different like story packaging

1221
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 3: ways that that I don't know that and but it's

1222
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 3: like a challenge for me constantly because I'm like, all right,

1223
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 3: who am I talking to? Am I talking to someone

1224
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 3: in New York who is never used a computer? Or

1225
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 3: am I talking to like someone in the valley who's like,

1226
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 3: don't explain this to me for the fifteenth time, And

1227
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1228
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: It's every time I don't explain something, one of the

1229
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: listeners I assume, in between holding a knife to a

1230
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: granny is will be like, you didn't explain that clearly enough,

1231
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: And actually I like that. I like explaining it because

1232
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: also this whole thing about like word counts, I do

1233
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: not have that problem with my newsletter. I put on

1234
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: even thousand words.

1235
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 5: Just like just like completely go at it.

1236
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, just fuck it. But also people get so.

1237
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: Angry when they're like Jesus christad in all.

1238
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: The funniest one was I did like a four thousand

1239
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: word one and someone sent me an email being like, yeah,

1240
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: that was too long, And the next one was eleven

1241
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: thousand words and.

1242
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: Relationship your audio, I know.

1243
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: He was planning to bomb.

1244
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 5: A bank, like thousand words quickly.

1245
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, this helpd me up.

1246
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: Your general if a I think was a great soundtrack

1247
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: to me chasing a man down the street with a hatshit.

1248
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

1249
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 8: I know you guys on all criminals, just a large majority.

1250
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 8: Maybe it's funny because you've really crystalized the problem here,

1251
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 8: which is what the fuck does the tech media actually do?

1252
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: Like what is the actual job here? And it doesn't

1253
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: even feel like the various bulkanized outlets.

1254
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 5: No, can I say what I think it is? I

1255
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 5: don't know.

1256
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 4: I am the most junior person in this room. Let

1257
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 4: me say extremely good thank you. But I think you

1258
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 4: do more work than I do, so you guys, But

1259
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 4: I think like what I want to do is bring

1260
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 4: information that they want or didn't have, like love a

1261
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 4: good scoop, Like, look, I'm giving you information you've never seen,

1262
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 4: and I want to give it to you in a

1263
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 4: way that's like that's helping you understand the world better.

1264
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 4: And that's kind of why I joined The Verge too,

1265
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 4: because they had like crazy multimedia team and I really,

1266
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 4: I really love podcasts because it's an easy way for

1267
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 4: me to consume stuff. And I think there's a younger

1268
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 4: generation who is not consuming stuff like you know, five

1269
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 4: thousand words. So like, however, you can get that information

1270
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 4: to people to help them, you know, whether it's podcasts

1271
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,479
Speaker 4: or you know, newsletters, any of that, I think that's

1272
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 4: our job.

1273
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, look on oh, I.

1274
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 3: Was like, I fully agree. I think the thing that

1275
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 3: I really enjoy too is just like it makes me

1276
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 3: feel good when someone who may be like intelligent but

1277
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 3: unfamiliar with a topic came away from a piece that

1278
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 3: I wrote and says that was interesting.

1279
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have read about that before.

1280
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: But like now, I like, even if I don't dig

1281
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 3: it into it anymore, I enjoyed reading about that. Yeah,

1282
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 3: you know, and like that's ideal for me, just in

1283
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 3: some form of like why are we doing this?

1284
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 5: Why are we doing this?

1285
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1286
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 4: And I think it can be really corroded by so

1287
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: many things, money and egos and like any other business,

1288
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 4: And that's what I think we see, like kind of

1289
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 4: that pressure at the top for a lot of us

1290
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,479
Speaker 4: journalists and maybe why they're really tired. But I think,

1291
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 4: you know, the best journalists really just want to do

1292
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 4: their job for the reader the best that they can.

1293
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 5: You know, it's not but it's not easy, and we're tired.

1294
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: We need more fucking nerds.

1295
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 5: We do need more nerds.

1296
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 2: I agree with that.

1297
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: We need more little goblin freaks like myself like that.

1298
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, And it's enough about my festival for nerding out

1299
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 9: on this stuff is good, Like it's just like you

1300
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 9: understand the topic, you want to get in the weeds

1301
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 9: of it.

1302
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: That's a good thing.

1303
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: But also a list that is in between brewing poisons,

1304
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: they love it though, and the crimes explained of your audience. No,

1305
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 1: but in no serious my non criminal listeners and indeeds

1306
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: some of the criminals. They like the fact that so

1307
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: my last Step episode that went out and it's a

1308
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: weird timeline when I'm recording this. But the episode that

1309
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 1: I think really changed my show was did you read

1310
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: this paper? Chat GBT is bullshit?

1311
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:09,439
Speaker 5: Now?

1312
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: It s there's this paper by these three academics in

1313
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: Glasgow called chat gbt's bullshit? But it's based on the

1314
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: Frank thirty and definition from on bullshit defined bullshits. Oh

1315
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: I remember that, and so I cannot remember what the

1316
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: definition is. Just bullshitting myself, I guess. And I get

1317
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: on the call thinking this is going to be like

1318
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: three starchy academics and they're cracking beers and they're having

1319
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: a good time and we had the funniest chat for

1320
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: an hour and I came out there being like, it's

1321
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: one of the best episodes ever. But also I think

1322
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: people want more of that. In take, everyone knows the

1323
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: Opening Eye is fucking everything up. Everyone's going to know

1324
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: about the crowd strike situation. Everyone's going to know all

1325
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: of these things, and they're all dominated by bad news,

1326
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: good news, weird news. But we need to get back.

1327
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: We need to get back to talking about the weird

1328
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: shit again because of me earlier stuff Kylie. In business

1329
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: you were talking to weird random device.

1330
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 3: I loved it so much.

1331
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: I went into weird communities. And I think the tech

1332
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: right now is saturated by stories about everything and everyone

1333
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: for good reason. By the way, just with sympathy here

1334
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: there is everyone wants it, everyone wants the traffic. You

1335
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: have to write, Kylie about the jupt for Minie like

1336
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 1: h Everyone has to cover these things because it's your beat,

1337
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: but it's getting in the way of the weird fun shit.

1338
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: Like I ran a pr from at day job and

1339
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: I write like eighteen thousand letter words I don't know,

1340
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: can't speak newsletters every week. I should not be the

1341
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: one finding the weird shit and talking to them. I am, though,

1342
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: because I'm paid to. But I just feel like there's

1343
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: so much magic in this industry. There's so much like

1344
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: as doom and gloom as I can be on this show.

1345
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: The joy of sending a weird picture of some dumb

1346
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: shit I found on Twitter to someone on someone yesterday,

1347
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: it was this picture of doctor Robotnik in a forklift

1348
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: it said, you're too late, Sonic. I'm for Forklift certified,

1349
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 1: and that made my day. It's still magic to the Internet,

1350
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: and there's still fun and people are fucking mad about

1351
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: the Internet, but they're still such good in there. People

1352
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: are always saying, in between reading the Unibomber's manifesto, my

1353
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 1: listeners will say I got something there. I don't know

1354
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: if I want to know, but in between various crimes,

1355
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: just gonna summarize that. My listeners, they also will say

1356
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: I want something positive, and then I respond, I'm sorry,

1357
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: you need to find you download another podcast. I'd say

1358
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: download it all in.

1359
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 2: But too far, too far.

1360
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: Jason Jason calacanis very damp anyway, dampness aside. The positivity

1361
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: is that and I myself have found myself falling into

1362
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: this kind of I don't want to say doomerism because

1363
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: I think it's a fucking stupid term, but the doom

1364
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 1: and gloom that everything, and we do need to cover

1365
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: these companies messing up. But I think what the problem

1366
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: is and where my anger comes from, and I think

1367
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: you'll share this is all of the bad stuff's getting

1368
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: in a way of some really funny shit TikTok and

1369
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: all of this needless cinophobia. But like, yeah, it's like

1370
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: we've got to ban TikTok because they're stealing data. They're

1371
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: like using data with our our users. We only let

1372
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: American companies do.

1373
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 2: That, right.

1374
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: TikTok has given birth to some of the funniest and

1375
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: sweetest posts. There is a growing community of zoos on

1376
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram, whereas just they put like a camera

1377
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: on a spoon and I feel like worms to and

1378
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: it's like there is still magic, there's still joy within

1379
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: this industry. And I think that the return to blogging

1380
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: that I am so sivorously suggesting and the wider head

1381
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: zychron empire that I dream of one day is genuinely

1382
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,479
Speaker 1: like a return to this, a return to this kind

1383
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: of not seeing the movie. It's a return to this

1384
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: thing where we kind of need to stop mining this

1385
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: shit again. We need to get back to finding the

1386
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: quirky little startups that might die but they're doing something interesting. Yeah,

1387
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: the weird I think less the meme stuff. I do

1388
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: think people who just cover memes all day should get

1389
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: real job. Sorry, Uh, someone's gonna be angry at that.

1390
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 1: I get it, but like there's about Internet culture and

1391
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: more just about the things being built there the course,

1392
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: the fact that you've still got a shit ton of

1393
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 1: open source software people who are just like. One of

1394
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: my early joys in tech was PlayStation portable and the

1395
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 1: PlayStation Vita and the homebrew communities on them. Ray Wong,

1396
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: formerly of Imbers got laidoffs. Bullshit. Ray Wong's great. He

1397
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: was talking to me the other day about the PlayStation

1398
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: portaborn hacking that thing. It was so much fun, the

1399
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: earlier iPhones with Sita, the helm brewing community, and I

1400
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: remember g O Hot has now become a very weird guy.

1401
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: I mean he was before. Oh he did like an

1402
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: autonomous cast start up. Okay, but these, I feel like

1403
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 1: are the more worthy stories than everyone pursuing the same thing.

1404
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: And I again, you're in a weird position.

1405
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 3: I get No, I do think that there's an element

1406
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 3: of I mean, honestly, there's corollaries and tech of like

1407
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 3: oh this person dropped this story or like this is

1408
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:26,680
Speaker 3: I mean, Twitter and media probably played into it for

1409
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 3: a while, but like I heard mentality, mentality around what

1410
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 3: people should be caring about or writing about, and like

1411
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 3: that actually like even though I have a I guess

1412
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 3: I have a beat, but also like I get away

1413
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 3: with pitching a lot of non beat stuff.

1414
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 2: But I think the the thing that.

1415
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 3: Maybe that keeps it interesting for me, but also I

1416
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 3: think can probably help just my job and maybe my

1417
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 3: career is like trying to zag when other people are

1418
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 3: going after zigging or whatever line it's very is that,

1419
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 3: oh god, I sound awful, really like genuinely watch where

1420
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 3: everyone's going and then like go pursue not just for

1421
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 3: the sake of it, but because there's something interesting there,

1422
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 3: you know, And like I think that can really it

1423
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 3: can distinguish you just from a career perspective, but also

1424
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 3: just like find like shit that's different, because people get

1425
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 3: tired of like reading the same yeah, the same article

1426
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 3: from five different publications that are saying the same thing.

1427
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:30,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, totally.

1428
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 4: The reason I know ed and Weinberger shout out is

1429
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 4: because I tweeted when I was in college I want

1430
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 4: to read about weird software developer culture shit, and then

1431
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 4: he hired me that way, and then that's when I

1432
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 4: wrote a bunch of I wrote a bunch of weird shit.

1433
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 5: I wrote about furries. That was awesome. Yeah, I love

1434
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 5: those like niche communities.

1435
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 4: Oh my first article, one of my first articles was

1436
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 4: about tech talk. So it was just like all of

1437
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 4: these technologists. It was a bunch of develop helpers who

1438
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 4: like software developers who make informational or like parody tiktoks

1439
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 4: about software development. It was very tech talk, Yes, tech

1440
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 4: talk like TikTok. It was actually in my pitch like

1441
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:14,879
Speaker 4: when I was my my exam. When you get hired. Anyways,

1442
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, I think that's really important to find those

1443
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:18,480
Speaker 4: like fun stories.

1444
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 3: Well, and like I, I, I imagine everyone in this

1445
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,719
Speaker 3: room and maybe if you are really into caring about tech,

1446
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 3: probably there was probably at least some time and maybe

1447
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 3: still now like where you enjoyed being a part of

1448
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 3: it or enjoyed understanding it or right like I, I

1449
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 3: definitely consider myself like a nerd at heart and like

1450
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 3: grew up building computers. I don't know if I could

1451
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 3: do it now, but like I used to and like it.

1452
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 3: I'm sure it is, like I'm sure with like even

1453
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,440
Speaker 3: more now with fucking YouTube's the youtubes.

1454
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: That are but a double past is just that me?

1455
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 1: Was that say again, thermble pace you could just get

1456
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 1: could you have it?

1457
01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 2: Just like.

1458
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 3: Ummy, but like there has to be an element of

1459
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 3: like caring about this stuff, enjoying this stuff, Like there's

1460
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 3: a reason why I still enjoy fucking around on the internet,

1461
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 3: Like like, yes, there's I have criticisms of maybe like

1462
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 3: the homogenization of how products develop because other companies are

1463
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 3: looking at how this person is doing it and we

1464
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 3: should have to do it like that. But you can

1465
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 3: still have fun on there and you can still find stuff,

1466
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 3: and like I agree that, like trying to find more

1467
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 3: of that is not a.

1468
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 5: Bad thing totally.

1469
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 3: You know.

1470
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 1: I think The Times is going to bring back bits.

1471
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 3: Dude. That's where I started in twenty Do you know

1472
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 3: what bits is? Oh dude, twenty joined twenty fourteen, and

1473
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:50,440
Speaker 3: we used to have long before my gosh, ten years

1474
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 3: in June it was ten years.

1475
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 2: I'm a millennial, so I should be hopping around jobs.

1476
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 5: But it's good.

1477
01:11:58,080 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: I know.

1478
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:00,640
Speaker 3: I know now I can't leave, but I but we

1479
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 3: It was a blog. It was literally The Times had

1480
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 3: a tech blog called Bits and it was it was

1481
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 3: kind of a function of like everyone's blogging at the time,

1482
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 3: and like, you know, we need to be blogging. And

1483
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,040
Speaker 3: I'm not sure they got rid of it because I'm not.

1484
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 2: I don't really know why. The exact reason is probably

1485
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 2: because it doesn't they Yeah, I think now.

1486
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 3: I think now it's like and even now they're still

1487
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 3: in like a transition period where they're like, we do

1488
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: either huge heaves or now they do like live blogs

1489
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 3: on like the big breaking thing they do, and like

1490
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 3: this sort of in between sort of.

1491
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 2: Things are going away, is what i'd say.

1492
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 3: The like, yeah, five hundred to seven hundred word articles

1493
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 3: they don't care about as much. And there's probably internet

1494
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,839
Speaker 3: traffic reasons for that. There's probably just like what readers

1495
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 3: want from a Times article. But Bits was amazing because

1496
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:55,799
Speaker 3: it was a blog where I could just dump random

1497
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,679
Speaker 3: shit that I that we found interesting and bits.

1498
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 1: And the funny thing is, I'm sure of the arguments

1499
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 1: that be well real reporting. That's where we get right

1500
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: except if you remember, and I do because I'm nine

1501
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 1: hundred years old in like Mike's age, there was this

1502
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 1: little guy called Evan Spiegel who Nick Bilton, in a

1503
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: remarkable act of journalism, wrote about for the first time

1504
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 1: in Bits. It was like one of the first one

1505
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,559
Speaker 1: of the first Snapchat articles. Wasn't bits that's funny and

1506
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: It's like, guess what, when you have that flexibility, when

1507
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 1: you have a bit of fun with it, you find

1508
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 1: weird little NEPO baby freaks who make insanely unprofitable software.

1509
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 1: Being an asshole here obviously, but that is an example

1510
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: I think where the verge can do well. The Virtus

1511
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 1: also had one of my favorite articles of all the time,

1512
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:44,759
Speaker 1: which is one about the Internet cables.

1513
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, yes, yes, that was before I started.

1514
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 5: That was so good.

1515
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,679
Speaker 1: Didn't get back to me what I mean, very very hurtful,

1516
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 1: very unfair. I actually forget his name and will now

1517
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 1: look it up like when I'm talking. But it but

1518
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: stories like that, But that one's slightly different because that

1519
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: was a heavily report. So yeah, but it was good

1520
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,680
Speaker 1: because it was dear. It's a bit weird. Yeah, I

1521
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,759
Speaker 1: want and I hope someone does a story about an airport,

1522
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: like a regional airport that got shut down by CrowdStrike.

1523
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, look something like that.

1524
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 5: Free story idea right.

1525
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 2: There, free story is Actually it's pretty good.

1526
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: Go for it please, because it's like that is what

1527
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: the big failure I think of the tech media. The

1528
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 1: biggest is assuming that tech is not and Taylor Renz

1529
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 1: made this point as well, that tech is not.

1530
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 5: Real life, that it's not a human problem.

1531
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:33,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, that it's just the thing that happens. The Internet

1532
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,559
Speaker 1: is over here and the real people are over here

1533
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 1: for sure, when it's not been that for like fifteen years,

1534
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: and it's just the stories like this, I think, like

1535
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: the free story idea of giving away because I do

1536
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: not have the time, but like a regional airport that

1537
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: got fucked up because of the Windows update, that.

1538
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 5: Is the reas' going to talk to the humans.

1539
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And also this is the practical implications of this.

1540
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:03,280
Speaker 1: We talk about tragicta what have you, but like, when

1541
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: you get down to it, what does this actually do

1542
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: for real people? What's an actual fucking thing happening? And

1543
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: I want like I want bits.

1544
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 2: Back my boss?

1545
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 1: Who's your boss? Email them now?

1546
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 2: I actually don't talk to.

1547
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:28,760
Speaker 1: Year mister. That's it with your news prepper fuck ship now.

1548
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:33,600
Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating as well. And the joy of this

1549
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: show is the I get to do a bit of that,

1550
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: but even then I don't get to go like I

1551
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 1: don't have the time. If they bade me like three

1552
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 1: million dollars a year, which is what I demand. No,

1553
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: but if I had more time, it would be like

1554
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:49,760
Speaker 1: sending people out to do that. It could happen here,

1555
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 1: which is a sister show a better offline. I guess

1556
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 1: we're a sister show of it. They do great work

1557
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:56,759
Speaker 1: because they go out and find these weird fucking stories,

1558
01:15:57,560 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: and I want more of that about like, I want

1559
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 1: more of the weird because we already know how bad

1560
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: of Google is and I'm going to keep doing it.

1561
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: Sorry everyone, but it it feels like everyone being tired

1562
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 1: is the problem. And also not talking about any specific outlet,

1563
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 1: but gearing coverage towards conferences has become the other problem,

1564
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, if we do this, we'll get

1565
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: the guy to speak on stage and say the same

1566
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 1: thing he said in the press release, and then we

1567
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 1: will get the money. The writers will not get the money,

1568
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: because that's not how this worked, but they will do

1569
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 1: the labor. And perhaps I'm saying that the people who

1570
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 1: run these publications haven't written a fucking word of meaning

1571
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 1: in maybe ten or fifteen years, or maybe their entire lives,

1572
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 1: and perhaps these publications need to be run by people

1573
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,759
Speaker 1: who actually fucking write stuff instead of these goddamn management

1574
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:42,599
Speaker 1: consultants who don't know what the fuck they're doing. But

1575
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 1: that's just one thing I had.

1576
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like that the.

1577
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 3: It's funny because there's like models. That's the thing about

1578
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,120
Speaker 3: media now that I feel like is being hauled out

1579
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 3: is like either there's the big players who have a

1580
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 3: very specific model of like, Okay, these are our reporters,

1581
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 3: these are our opinion people.

1582
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:06,600
Speaker 2: Reporters go out and do this.

1583
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 3: There's a lot of overhead in that because reporting is

1584
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 3: expensive and you're not going to produce for weeks or

1585
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 3: a week or whatever, and then you have the one

1586
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 3: or two person shops or whatever on substack or something

1587
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 3: that can riff.

1588
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:22,680
Speaker 2: But like.

1589
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 3: Either, ay, you need to produce like regularly to live, no,

1590
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 3: and you don't have the bandwidth to like fly to

1591
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 3: to Wyoming and talk to you know, the airport that

1592
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 3: got fucked or just like or it's not your thing

1593
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 3: and like you do a different sort of thing. And

1594
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 3: I'm like it would be ideally, And I think The

1595
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 3: Times even did a push for this where they were

1596
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 3: doing like a newsletter when everyone when everyone in media

1597
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 3: was doing like a newsletter thing.

1598
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 2: Funny, the idea is like, all right, now.

1599
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,719
Speaker 3: We can sort of everyone gets subscribed to a newsletter,

1600
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,599
Speaker 3: it can riff or whatever.

1601
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know where we like net out there,

1602
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, like I just don't know.

1603
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: It was like a classic manager who doesn't write thing.

1604
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 1: It's just like, why is this newsletter big? Because it's

1605
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 1: a newsletter, right, Like, damn, that's so smart. Let's pay

1606
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: a million dollars in salaries to people to do the

1607
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: same thing they're already doing, which we were already emailing people.

1608
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 5: I can get a million dollars just in emails.

1609
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 1: It was just the aggregate spend there. And I think

1610
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 1: the problem is that it's I go back to my

1611
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 1: point I just clunkily made, which it's like the people

1612
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: at the top are not fucking writing, They're like pell whatever.

1613
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 4: This is what I was going to say, is that

1614
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:36,720
Speaker 4: when I came to the verge, as you're going to say,

1615
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 4: like I did not expect he is like really in

1616
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,519
Speaker 4: the newsroom and he is writing all the time, like

1617
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 4: we have this little thing that says like someone published

1618
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 4: an article this in the articles have been published today,

1619
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 4: And he is always on there publishing.

1620
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 5: Stuff, which I've never had that at a newsroom, which

1621
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 5: is crazy for him. I know he's a unit.

1622
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 1: He is and I have my problems with him, and

1623
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 1: one day we'll hash it out. But otherwise he's going

1624
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 1: to come on, I know, love that yet to email

1625
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 1: me back either. I don't know why. It could be

1626
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 1: the things I say in all seriousness is the Verge

1627
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 1: is actually a great example of Yeah, the top person

1628
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,679
Speaker 1: should be writing all the time, because if you're not writing,

1629
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: how the hell do you know what writing is? What

1630
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 1: do you don't even know what good writing is? You

1631
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: don't even know where You can't even have the same

1632
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 1: struggles as a reporter. And when a reporter, I don't know,

1633
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 1: I could we talk about anyone says something very rude

1634
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 1: in your publication, you fire them the next day for

1635
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,599
Speaker 1: pissing off tech bros could be talking about anyone. You're

1636
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: not building solidarity and you're definitely not supporting actual reporting.

1637
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Virgin Boxer fire at this.

1638
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 4: Sorry to say gen z terms, but they're really really good.

1639
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 2: They're busting. Moment came out of my mouth. I was like,

1640
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 2: oh God, don't worry. When I say it, it sounds.

1641
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 5: No cap.

1642
01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 4: But I think, like, that's that's why I came is

1643
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 4: because they let you write weird ship. They give their

1644
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:04,160
Speaker 4: weird writers like all the bandwidths to do whatever they want,

1645
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 4: and Neili is in the trenches with you writing. He

1646
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 4: actually was the one who pointed me towards the Google

1647
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 4: glue story. He was like, this is fucking crazy, and

1648
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 4: it was like my first week and he's just got like,

1649
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I agree with that's fair enough.

1650
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 5: Stay out of it.

1651
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:23,599
Speaker 4: We don't know it's too much you write.

1652
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 5: You remember Google AI overviews. They if you say, oh

1653
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:32,879
Speaker 5: the pizza thing, yes, fuck yeah.

1654
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 4: Blue story, and that was like, yes, that was awesome,

1655
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 4: but yeah. So having someone who's like in the trenches

1656
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 4: with you is so cool because you get to learn

1657
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 4: from them and he can tell me like, hey, like

1658
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 4: there's a story over there.

1659
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:47,519
Speaker 5: I know it.

1660
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,599
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of the reasons Wineburger was so great.

1661
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 1: He didn't write once, and I'm gonna just chotting at

1662
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: Matt Weinberger the entire show. By the way. He did write,

1663
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: he did a little, he didn't write enough. One of

1664
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 1: the greatest he was running so much, which is a

1665
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 1: great tech story but also a classic Weinberger story, is

1666
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 1: he did a review of the latest Madden at the

1667
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 1: time without understanding the rules of football. So the whole

1668
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:10,680
Speaker 1: thing is just to be like, Okay.

1669
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 2: Why is this very funny?

1670
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 1: But honestly, I actually think that kind of stuff's extremely

1671
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: It's good. I would love to like get like a

1672
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: line cook chat, GPT and just record what their thoughts,

1673
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 1: like someone just disconnected for whose regular job is a

1674
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: real job which actually like sucks and like involves them

1675
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:32,600
Speaker 1: having to deal with people like not like a.

1676
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 2: Party, I actually but again free.

1677
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 1: Ideas the whole show. I would love like a We're

1678
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:40,840
Speaker 1: currently in a big studio and I would love like

1679
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: a tech like a tech radio show, and I could

1680
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 1: live in here be very damp keyword damp and no cap.

1681
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 1: But also that's in the site. By the way, the

1682
01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: Internet cable story is Josh Diseaser dz I easy a.

1683
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 1: I will put that in the notes as well. Incredible

1684
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:06,479
Speaker 1: story and also scary that the Internet is run by

1685
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:12,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of cables. Good break. It's I feel like

1686
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:14,640
Speaker 1: what we're discussing here though, is the same thing of

1687
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 1: we're discussing how people actually interact with tech, and I

1688
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 1: feel like too much writing is about how people they

1689
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:27,560
Speaker 1: think people interact with tech. We're writing for tech enthusiastics

1690
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 1: rather than how people experience the world. One thing I've

1691
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: been thinking about, and I don't know how to fucking

1692
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 1: do this podcast is and by the way, the listener,

1693
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 1: the listener who keeps bugging me about this, singling you

1694
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:40,879
Speaker 1: out without naming you.

1695
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 2: What crime do they commit?

1696
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:52,120
Speaker 1: I was actually just thinking of what guy currently writing. No, no, no,

1697
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:54,600
Speaker 1: no no. It's a fair thing. They say, I'm not

1698
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 1: critical enough of Apple. But the one story I want

1699
01:22:57,479 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 1: to do, and I think this is one that everyone

1700
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 1: needs to be honest. Have you used the app store recently?

1701
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:06,759
Speaker 1: It's extremely bad. It is so bad, It's so very bad.

1702
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 1: The apps that chart in some sections are just flat

1703
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:14,719
Speaker 1: out dog shit, ad filled nonsense. The discovery on there

1704
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 1: is nakedly corrupt. The people in the app store editorial

1705
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:21,599
Speaker 1: fuck you if you're listening. Okay, not really, but no

1706
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: cap no cap. Seriously, the apps tore editorial people is

1707
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 1: so nakedly corrupt. Right now, I don't mean fuck you.

1708
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,600
Speaker 1: Please don't punish any podcast other than mine, punish me.

1709
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 1: But then they just feed the richest people. They're featuring

1710
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 1: popular things. They feature popular apps like why do I

1711
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,120
Speaker 1: need to feature Facebook. I'm actually gonna load this shit

1712
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 1: up right now. I'm fine, I hope I'm not wrong.

1713
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look like a real toss pot. Okay. The

1714
01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:52,480
Speaker 1: top thing on here is tour Monopoly goes Amazing Destinations.

1715
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: Monopoly Go makes billions of dollars. Why is that what

1716
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 1: Apple is surfacing?

1717
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 2: That's weird. That's like a featured thing and not like

1718
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 2: a charting.

1719
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 1: It is the first thing when you open the apps.

1720
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 1: Next Amazon Music, Top apps right now, TikTok Max, Disney Plus, Snapchat,

1721
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 1: Amazon Music. Next one.

1722
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:13,360
Speaker 5: I went to one of their south By Southwest parties

1723
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 5: and sud Group love there. That's my only the.

1724
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 2: Most useful part of Amazon Music.

1725
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 1: It was, Yeah, the most useful part of Amazon Music

1726
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,679
Speaker 1: is an offline. Next thing up is Toka Bocal World.

1727
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 1: That's a they make at least one hundred million dollars

1728
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:31,719
Speaker 1: a year. Next one up Squadbusters, which is a game

1729
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 1: by super Cell Multimer millions of dollars. Every single thing

1730
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 1: on here is just making the rich Richard. The next

1731
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 1: is Bluey, which is literally worth billions.

1732
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 2: Isn't that a dog?

1733
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 3: I saw?

1734
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 1: I saw Bluey at a Clippers game. Drunk Off is asked,

1735
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 1: leering at the cheerleaders. They kicked him out for being

1736
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,799
Speaker 1: too drunk. Didn't even make it to the half anyway.

1737
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 1: Jokes about blueish side. That's a that's a real problem.

1738
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 1: That is a real algorithmic problem that everyone is facing.

1739
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 1: But everyone's kind of in the tech media for good reason.

1740
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: Folks in the open AI focused on AI AI AI AI.

1741
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 1: It needs to be this when the real problems are

1742
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,639
Speaker 1: sitting in front of us, and those are the ones

1743
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 1: that people actually are affected by the fact supercell is

1744
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: rich because Apple is helping them get rich because Apple

1745
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,720
Speaker 1: wants thirty percent, Why not send that traffic to someone else,

1746
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 1: send it to small developers. It's too much like hard work.

1747
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 1: And it pisses me off because well everything pisses me off.

1748
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 1: I guess it pissed me off because it doesn't feel

1749
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 1: like the tech media is currently built to handle this.

1750
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's even the fault of the writers.

1751
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 1: There needs to be an app store reporter. How do we.

1752
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 5: What they would get?

1753
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 4: I mean, there's no fifty there's no infrastructure. I mean,

1754
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 4: tell that to the media executives. That's what I'm trying

1755
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:52,679
Speaker 4: to say.

1756
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're wrong, like what you know, what

1757
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 1: you're describing is the actual problem. These executives don't want

1758
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 1: to invest in that. But if the argument is what's important, yeah,

1759
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 1: then this is important. It's more important than anything else

1760
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: like Google search, app stole, These are the things that matter.

1761
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: But it feels that the media is engineered towards clicks,

1762
01:26:15,439 --> 01:26:18,320
Speaker 1: which is then engineered towards pleasing Google, who is currently

1763
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 1: fucking up the news media. It's just we're in this

1764
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 1: weird cycle now. I don't even think real paper wrong over.

1765
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:28,240
Speaker 3: It's really funny because I would always, like very vociferously

1766
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 3: fight back against the like clickbait sort of argument, but like,

1767
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:33,840
Speaker 3: I don't.

1768
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:36,719
Speaker 2: I think it's harder to depend against these days because

1769
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,920
Speaker 2: of how how traffic has declined and how like I

1770
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 2: do think metrics play a role across Like every outlet

1771
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 2: has an SEO person who is like paying attention to

1772
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 2: what is trending or whatever, you know, and I don't.

1773
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 2: I don't think it's and and I'll I will make

1774
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:59,120
Speaker 2: the distinction that I don't think are outlet and I

1775
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 2: don't think most out it's our only driving traffic as

1776
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 2: the primary reason. But I do think because like, look,

1777
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:07,120
Speaker 2: you have a mission, you have like a thing that

1778
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 2: your north star of coverage should be. But like there

1779
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 2: is more awareness than there was ten or fifteen years

1780
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 2: ago of like what is happening traffic wise and what

1781
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 2: you should be thinking about. And that's a real thing.

1782
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: And you know what's also happening. Immediately after I stopped talking,

1783
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: You're going to hear an advertisement. And when you hear

1784
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 1: that ad, you're going to be like, damn, that is

1785
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: so thematically relevant. Everything it says that wasn't embarrassing to

1786
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,000
Speaker 1: add ed didn't feel really annoyed. It didn't make a

1787
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,679
Speaker 1: specific rule on his reddit so that people don't talk

1788
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 1: about it. That ad was so well placed. An eye,

1789
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 1: a new customer of this perfect company will love it.

1790
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:59,639
Speaker 1: So please enjoy this extremely relevant ad and we're back.

1791
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 1: So the whole traffic thing's funny because clickbait is not

1792
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 1: is part of it. And actually I think Bi's done

1793
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 1: really well with keeping clickbait going but actually doing good

1794
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 1: shit in the topless She's actually found the middle ground,

1795
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 1: which is like straight up like clickbait, but the inside's

1796
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: so good but.

1797
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:19,640
Speaker 3: You like it, right, Yeah, Like m Coca actually has

1798
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 3: riffed one this before is like that the idea of

1799
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 3: like you made that headline for people to only click,

1800
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 3: like you want people to be interested in your story,

1801
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 3: like there's gonna be. There isn't an art to it, right,

1802
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 3: It's not all.

1803
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:34,280
Speaker 5: A thousand words and you know a couple of words.

1804
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 2: You gotta figure that out totally.

1805
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny as well because I actually think

1806
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: that the take media really needs to realize that other

1807
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 1: than chasing clicks. It's like tech stories get a shit

1808
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,439
Speaker 1: ton of traffic. That alone should be a sign that

1809
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 1: there's magic to be found here. And it's not from

1810
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 1: doing the same thing, and it's from I think that

1811
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 1: there is a way of dressing up like software communities.

1812
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 4: Oh that's what That's what I did for almost two years.

1813
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,519
Speaker 4: That was my job, was talking about software developer communities

1814
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 4: and it was rad.

1815
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.

1816
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 4: I think The Verge is actually the first time I've

1817
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 4: worked at a publication where there are no KPIs or

1818
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 4: like traffic goals or sub schoals. No, no, no one

1819
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:17,320
Speaker 4: bothers me about that. So it's it's sick, yeah, because

1820
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,320
Speaker 4: you know a lot of people experience that, and people

1821
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 4: get yelled about that, like you you you could get

1822
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:25,760
Speaker 4: fired over not reaching traffic. So I don't have to

1823
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 4: worry about that, which is great, and I think that's

1824
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 4: really healthy for writers. I wish more writers had that experience.

1825
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, like where where we're at.

1826
01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 1: It's does the times have stuff like that?

1827
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 2: No?

1828
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 3: No, I mean, like I think it's like general vibes, right,

1829
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 3: like if I fucking didn't put anything out in a month,

1830
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 3: then like whatever, then I might get a phone call.

1831
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:51,200
Speaker 3: But like, as far as I can tell, or at least,

1832
01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 3: I don't get called about it.

1833
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 2: But I don't. I don't wait, like I've never seen

1834
01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 2: yeah exactly, but I which time, yeah, short time.

1835
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 3: I do think that like yeah, I do think there

1836
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 3: is more attention to paid to like metrics now, but

1837
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 3: like and I, oh god, I'm just thinking back on

1838
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,519
Speaker 3: like my super earliest days of writing, and they.

1839
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 5: Have screens back then where they showed like ranking authority.

1840
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:21,879
Speaker 5: I heard that when I first started journalism.

1841
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:24,559
Speaker 1: I was like, what, you have a tyrodactyl that used

1842
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 1: to do the typing for you and turn to your

1843
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 1: living Mike is the same age exactly.

1844
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,679
Speaker 3: Sorry, I know I get to be resident old guy

1845
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 3: but like it now. Even then, you know, I was

1846
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 3: still having to churn out more, but now it's just

1847
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 3: gotten like ten times worse. I am totally like all

1848
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 3: the folks who I won't like mention outlets, but like

1849
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 3: I just have colleagues or friends who work at different

1850
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:52,600
Speaker 3: places and have you have to do this mini a

1851
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,559
Speaker 3: week or like this is your quota, and like even

1852
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:57,040
Speaker 3: when I was starting out, it was like I had

1853
01:30:57,040 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 3: to do at least one a day, which I could

1854
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 3: do when I was like twenty four or whatever however old.

1855
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 3: And now I'm thirty nine and I'm fucking I can't

1856
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,800
Speaker 3: even think about that. Yeah, you know, so like it's

1857
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:14,839
Speaker 3: just a very yeah, I don't know, it's super depressing.

1858
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 2: I'm trying to complain about it too much.

1859
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 4: I was in the trenches when I was in college,

1860
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:22,679
Speaker 4: so I would I was doing all my college classes,

1861
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 4: and then I was also writing for BI and they

1862
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 4: have famously and well publicized very stringent goals about what

1863
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:32,080
Speaker 4: you're supposed to reach. And I was in the trenches,

1864
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:34,040
Speaker 4: but at least I was writing stuff that was really fun.

1865
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 4: And also it was my first job in journalism, so

1866
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:36,960
Speaker 4: I thought that was the norm.

1867
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 5: Just get them all through.

1868
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 4: But I think, like speaking to why isn't the tech

1869
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 4: media getting stuff right? They have really really, really really

1870
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 4: rich and powerful people who own their company, and then

1871
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:49,559
Speaker 4: trickles all the way down to people breathing down your

1872
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 4: neck and like, have you written ten stories this week?

1873
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:53,920
Speaker 5: The Messenger is a great example of this.

1874
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 2: The poor messenger gone, I forgot all about that.

1875
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 5: Now company forgot until just now, Horri.

1876
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:03,800
Speaker 1: You're not dead yet, which is not an actionable threat,

1877
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 1: but the Messenger is a great example. I think of

1878
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 1: a problem that faces the tech media, which is, again,

1879
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: the people making the publications aren't really the ones touching them.

1880
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Fink le Stein, formerly of The Hill, a hundred million

1881
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:19,719
Speaker 1: dollars off selling The Hill to I assume a private

1882
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 1: equity firm. I did say it in a previous episode.

1883
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 1: I forget everything I say the moment I say it,

1884
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 1: and it's it's frustrating. But also at some point I

1885
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:30,920
Speaker 1: think that the tech media could look more like a

1886
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,720
Speaker 1: bunch of four h four medias. I wish I think

1887
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 1: it's going that way, because look, the biggest fallacy of

1888
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:39,000
Speaker 1: all of these tech pubs is are you can't do

1889
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 1: them profitable without a bunch of trap. Fuck you, you can

1890
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 1: make them super profitable if you don't have fifty people,

1891
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:49,719
Speaker 1: if you have focused people. My granded dreams turn newsletter

1892
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 1: in a thing where I just have a bunch of stringers, freelancers,

1893
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 1: free idea for anyone to copy. You just have to

1894
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: be able to write three thousand words in an hour, bitch,

1895
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: but it's two. But nevertheless, it's I think that that

1896
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 1: is where it's going because four or four has done

1897
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:07,679
Speaker 1: probably the best Internet culture reporting.

1898
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 5: I love them so much.

1899
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 4: It's so cool to get to see them succeed in

1900
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 4: the way that they have and just completely smash it

1901
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 4: and deliver the best fucking reporting.

1902
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,680
Speaker 1: What Samlely, Cole Cobbler. They're all fucking brilliant, and they're

1903
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:23,800
Speaker 1: brilliant because they're all Internet weirdos. Yes I mean that affectionately.

1904
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, on the Motherboard DNA exactly, Sarah Derek, they

1905
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 2: all used to work on Motherboard and that was like

1906
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 2: mother Board was one.

1907
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:35,519
Speaker 3: Of the real good and weird internet sites before Vice

1908
01:33:36,200 --> 01:33:36,640
Speaker 3: killed it.

1909
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:39,679
Speaker 2: But yeah, all those people at the top.

1910
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 5: Host I wanted to be them so bad.

1911
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:44,760
Speaker 1: They're great too, super great, No, seriously, like one of

1912
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 1: my heroes Edward im Guiso Junior.

1913
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, good guy.

1914
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:51,640
Speaker 1: I wish he wrote more. I love his work, but

1915
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:54,599
Speaker 1: also another I don't know. He's a logic. I believe

1916
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 1: now he's gonna be on the next Better Off Live.

1917
01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.

1918
01:33:58,560 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 1: He's so cool.

1919
01:33:59,320 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 5: That's right.

1920
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:02,560
Speaker 1: But it's it's like guys like that having an opportunity

1921
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,400
Speaker 1: a place like Motherboard is so good. I want to

1922
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:09,080
Speaker 1: see like more of these clustered publications because if you

1923
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:11,280
Speaker 1: really look at the old school tech Crunch, and I

1924
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:14,839
Speaker 1: know people have fairly very negative views about Michael Arrington.

1925
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about him as a person because all

1926
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:21,519
Speaker 1: of that sucks. However, the original days of tech Crunch

1927
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,160
Speaker 1: resemble four oh four media so much more than they

1928
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 1: do tech Crunch today in that it was a bun.

1929
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 1: It was Michaelarrington, and there's a big myth that it's like, well,

1930
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:31,760
Speaker 1: tech Crunch is very dry. It was be like Mike

1931
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 1: Clownton going, You'll never believe who I saw the melt.

1932
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:40,160
Speaker 3: I forgot the creamery like a black or the ghost

1933
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:41,680
Speaker 3: of it is a black from here and he.

1934
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 1: Would just like hang out. They'd be like, you'll never

1935
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: believe what I And it's great This is why I

1936
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:47,000
Speaker 1: say gossip.

1937
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:49,639
Speaker 2: Because this is what it is.

1938
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 1: Is what it was in the oldest, Like ooh, I've

1939
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,840
Speaker 1: heard that Inside Partners is going to do this. It's

1940
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:57,439
Speaker 1: inside Partners. Is that one of the VY people, one

1941
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,160
Speaker 1: of the big vcs, he'd hear some ship and and

1942
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:03,679
Speaker 1: that would be an even poor cars dirty but even

1943
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 1: he did the same thing. Sarah lazy but it's okay,

1944
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:08,720
Speaker 1: that's a bit me and she did some good ship.

1945
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, she.

1946
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:12,320
Speaker 2: Did a really good book, actually the once You're Lucky

1947
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:13,600
Speaker 2: Twice You're good. You should read that.

1948
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:15,879
Speaker 1: That's the thing, shouldn't.

1949
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:18,479
Speaker 5: I need to learn way more about this old school.

1950
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 3: I mean, we've fought a lot over the years, but

1951
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 3: she has ship. Some of her reporter is really good.

1952
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:27,840
Speaker 1: But also, this is what my longer term vision I'm

1953
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:29,680
Speaker 1: just saying it on the pod is. I want to

1954
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: rebuild solidarity within the tech media. It's a very lonely industry.

1955
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 1: Everyone's very much an island. Even the Virgin which I love.

1956
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:39,680
Speaker 1: The Virginal podcast is the Virgin people talking to the

1957
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:42,720
Speaker 1: Virgin power stuff every four and four. Same deal. I

1958
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,639
Speaker 1: love four and four, but the same deal, and it's

1959
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:50,920
Speaker 1: everyone's bulkanized a bit, but also it will allow for

1960
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 1: delicious beefs and gossip, and I think that people love that.

1961
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 1: I think people like it's like, oh, you'll never believe.

1962
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 1: Oh they're angry at each other again. People love this shit.

1963
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:04,120
Speaker 1: It's low stakes drama. Oh you got the scoop on grumbus.

1964
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 1: I had the scoop on grumbus. You aggregated my grumbus.

1965
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 5: I just had this conversation today. Actually, grumm.

1966
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,600
Speaker 3: I do think that we It's like journalists can be

1967
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:19,160
Speaker 3: often very catty and insecure, and that is.

1968
01:36:19,120 --> 01:36:21,240
Speaker 5: Like the biggest culture shot. Getting into this.

1969
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 4: I was like, fuck, this is like like throwing elbows.

1970
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 4: I feel like I got like literally elbowed in the

1971
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:28,599
Speaker 4: teeth so many times by people.

1972
01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 5: I'm like, fuck God, but it isn't.

1973
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 3: Yes, sorry, I was more agro I think when I

1974
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:39,759
Speaker 3: was younger, and I get it, Like I think I'm

1975
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 3: also like because I work at the times, there's a

1976
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:46,639
Speaker 3: whole weirdness around that and like people often with good

1977
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:48,680
Speaker 3: reasons in the past, like we didn't used to like

1978
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:50,840
Speaker 3: not link a lot. Now I think we're way I

1979
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 3: will spend time that. Yeah, I mean I get it

1980
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 3: all the time. But I think I was trained, probably

1981
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 3: because I came up and blugging to like link and

1982
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,280
Speaker 3: like credit and I think our desk is very good

1983
01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 3: about it now. But like everyone is just like I

1984
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,799
Speaker 3: described this a lot, like I feel like journalism today

1985
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 3: is a lot of like very insecure overachievers, and everyone's

1986
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:14,160
Speaker 3: kind of like looking over their shoulders and trying to

1987
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:16,679
Speaker 3: compete and trying to like make their mark or whatever.

1988
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:20,679
Speaker 3: And I think getting your I have a fucking ego,

1989
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:26,439
Speaker 3: but trying to get yeah, exactly, try trying to tamp

1990
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 3: that down as much and just like keep it and also,

1991
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:33,200
Speaker 3: like people, one thing I've tried to do, even though

1992
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 3: it's hard, is like people like really remember when you

1993
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 3: pay them compliments on us totally like just doing a

1994
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,960
Speaker 3: nice posting like that was a great story.

1995
01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 2: I think it's a nice thing.

1996
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 1: That's something I do with lots on this show, because

1997
01:37:46,640 --> 01:37:48,719
Speaker 1: like I really am, I've got and it's.

1998
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 2: Easy to like shoot on someone's stuff and then they

1999
01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 2: fucking they'll remember that, right. I remember, you.

2000
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:57,040
Speaker 1: Can't do one you have to do like, okay, you

2001
01:37:57,040 --> 01:37:59,360
Speaker 1: can't do just being nice. I realized that is an option.

2002
01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 4: That I it's down here on the low road.

2003
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:09,519
Speaker 1: You think I've gone lower, I will, but there is

2004
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:11,200
Speaker 1: a degree here of like, of course I'm like, I

2005
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 1: will criticize Jesus, fuck that word up. But there's so

2006
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:18,200
Speaker 1: much good there and I think the like four or four.

2007
01:38:18,200 --> 01:38:19,519
Speaker 1: The reason I bring them up so much is they're

2008
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,839
Speaker 1: the're fucking like they are, Like, I love sharing their work. Yeah, Defecto,

2009
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: which Irillas is outside of tech David Roth. Most people

2010
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 1: like Ray Rato, like you've got really like specialized reporters,

2011
01:38:30,439 --> 01:38:33,439
Speaker 1: and that's sports, I realized. But that model of Hey

2012
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 1: defined voices that people really love, that love for who

2013
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 1: they are. Drew McGarry covering Ship. People aren't going there

2014
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 1: just to hear about sports. They're going because Drew has

2015
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: a thought. Same with David. And I think that model

2016
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:47,559
Speaker 1: in tech is something that the verge has done a

2017
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:50,800
Speaker 1: good job on. I think they can go further, but

2018
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:53,679
Speaker 1: it's something that was in bits. It was something that

2019
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:54,920
Speaker 1: had Man'd you do?

2020
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 2: Did I think that The Times is uh? This is

2021
01:38:58,400 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 2: my personal view.

2022
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:06,880
Speaker 3: I think that they can be ambivalent on personalities, like

2023
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:10,320
Speaker 3: in one way, like it serves them a lot to

2024
01:39:10,400 --> 01:39:15,559
Speaker 3: have columnists who like people will go for you know,

2025
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:18,240
Speaker 3: this is a different generation. But like David Brooks or

2026
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:20,599
Speaker 3: Tom Friedman or these folks who have been coming there

2027
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:22,880
Speaker 3: and drive a lot of traffic or talk to the

2028
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 3: president and like are important in some capacity. But at

2029
01:39:26,439 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 3: the same time, I think Times folks are Times. People

2030
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,599
Speaker 3: at the top are always like the brand is first, right,

2031
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 3: it's a New York Times. It's not Mike Isaac at

2032
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 3: the New York Times some thing right, And like, I.

2033
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 2: Do think there's a tension there.

2034
01:39:40,840 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 3: But in this one thing that I think have expressly

2035
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:47,720
Speaker 3: said outwardly is like in an age of Ai producing

2036
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:52,000
Speaker 3: mountains of bullshit, one advantage we might have is knowing

2037
01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 3: that our reporters are people and explaining that they have

2038
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:58,080
Speaker 3: expertise and like going into them. So like it, I

2039
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:00,599
Speaker 3: do think there's like a tension there. I would love

2040
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:03,720
Speaker 3: if they let us be a little more free.

2041
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:07,040
Speaker 5: But like that is the tension, and we all see it.

2042
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:09,400
Speaker 4: And I think that's kind of what you give up

2043
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 4: for the Times, is what it seems like as the outsiders, like, Okay,

2044
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:14,679
Speaker 4: if you want to work for the Times, you're gonna

2045
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,400
Speaker 4: have to give that up. And that's it's not just

2046
01:40:17,439 --> 01:40:19,720
Speaker 4: the Times. The it's like you know, like a lot

2047
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:22,000
Speaker 4: of of the top publications. You you're not gonna have

2048
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 4: that voice because of what they do.

2049
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:24,839
Speaker 5: It's different.

2050
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 1: What's funny, though, is I'm old enough to remember that

2051
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,799
Speaker 1: this was the model. David Poge at the New York Times,

2052
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 1: Eric Benderoff, I think it was at the Tribune here

2053
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 1: was a bray. I think at the Boston Globe you

2054
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:39,760
Speaker 1: had tech colonists and they were insane. You still got

2055
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:41,519
Speaker 1: like Jim Rossman, I think that that was morning use

2056
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: mixing up with someone. Nevertheless, you have a few, but

2057
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:47,320
Speaker 1: regional tech columists used to get paid insane money. M

2058
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 1: there was a rumor. There was a rumor that, like

2059
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:54,200
Speaker 1: I think seen it, tried to pay Nick Bilton a

2060
01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:54,920
Speaker 1: million dollars.

2061
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:57,599
Speaker 2: I remember that. I don't even remember.

2062
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:00,599
Speaker 5: I've heard Felix Salmon stories.

2063
01:41:01,960 --> 01:41:05,120
Speaker 4: This is like passed down from older journalists to me

2064
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 4: through generations.

2065
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:08,639
Speaker 2: So the Fusion days, Oh that was great?

2066
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:10,120
Speaker 1: What was this? We need to tell you?

2067
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:11,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Well do.

2068
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 3: You remember the Fusion Do you remember Fusion?

2069
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:13,840
Speaker 2: Does that?

2070
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:15,719
Speaker 5: I remember? Like the logo?

2071
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:19,280
Speaker 3: I mean you shouldn't because it was literally like a

2072
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:25,440
Speaker 3: production of Telemundo that wanted to do is tech company Olsen.

2073
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: Or h ship.

2074
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:31,160
Speaker 3: There was a bunch of cash Hill there. Kevin Russ

2075
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:35,680
Speaker 3: work there, and what they did was uh uh And

2076
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:38,519
Speaker 3: they hired Felix Oh like just magical. So what they

2077
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:41,880
Speaker 3: did though was like come in and throw like money

2078
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 3: at everyone. I fucking rude the day that I didn't

2079
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:46,360
Speaker 3: try to get a job there because my salary would

2080
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:50,599
Speaker 3: be like four x what it is nice but right, right, right,

2081
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:53,240
Speaker 3: But I think the rumor was I'm not going to

2082
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:55,840
Speaker 3: say exactly what it was, but just there were rumors

2083
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:59,160
Speaker 3: on how much people were getting paid and we all

2084
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:01,599
Speaker 3: should have done that great and that the company went

2085
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:04,160
Speaker 3: out of business like two week years later. No, no,

2086
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:07,000
Speaker 3: they bought got bought by Gizmoto, which then fucking I

2087
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:07,840
Speaker 3: don't even know what.

2088
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:10,040
Speaker 2: No, Gizmoto got bought by Telemando.

2089
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:12,040
Speaker 5: Media is not just fun anymore.

2090
01:42:12,360 --> 01:42:15,920
Speaker 3: Fucking human centipede of shit that is media industry.

2091
01:42:15,960 --> 01:42:18,759
Speaker 1: Again. I will have drinks every city I'm in. Everyone

2092
01:42:18,800 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 1: will get drunk together, and then everyone will be mad

2093
01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:22,479
Speaker 1: at each other and then we'll have stuff like this.

2094
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,200
Speaker 1: But it's I think it is partly also the remote

2095
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:26,160
Speaker 1: work movement.

2096
01:42:26,200 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 5: And I've only been a remote journalist, which is crazy.

2097
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:29,759
Speaker 2: You're are going to an office.

2098
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 5: I will, but like, I've never had a newsroom never.

2099
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:35,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's a that's a bummer.

2100
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:39,000
Speaker 5: Whenever I say that, people who are journalists before COVID

2101
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:39,799
Speaker 5: or like that sucks.

2102
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:43,640
Speaker 1: I feel like, also though that is somewhat romanticized though, because.

2103
01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:45,320
Speaker 2: You're because you're anti you're anti.

2104
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 1: Oh, it's not even a remote work thing. It's just

2105
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 1: the newsroom of Future Publishing when I work there. Eight shit,

2106
01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 1: don't live in England anymore. Future Publishing there was there

2107
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:57,400
Speaker 1: was just a mood of depression in that books. It

2108
01:42:57,400 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: was a depressing place to work run by us White.

2109
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 3: Sure.

2110
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:03,960
Speaker 1: And so then you go into the BBC one or

2111
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:06,280
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg one, you're like, Okay, I fucking get it.

2112
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:08,679
Speaker 4: Like I would be, oh, yeah, the Bloomberg one sounds awesome,

2113
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:10,240
Speaker 4: but the BBC one, at least the old one.

2114
01:43:10,280 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: I haven't been into the Big Tower too, And I

2115
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:17,559
Speaker 1: feel like that it'd be cool if a tech newsroom

2116
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 1: exists like that. It just in the world, just practically speaking.

2117
01:43:20,200 --> 01:43:21,880
Speaker 1: But also I don't know if one. I guess all

2118
01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:23,040
Speaker 1: things that you kind of had one.

2119
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 3: I mean, we had like a we were like weirdly

2120
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:29,759
Speaker 3: remote hybrid. We had like a work space or something

2121
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 3: in Soma, but I think that like, like, look, it's

2122
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:37,880
Speaker 3: we are romanticizing it. But I do like and I

2123
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 3: fucking work from home literally all the time. But but

2124
01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:44,760
Speaker 3: my the thing that I miss about working at headquarters

2125
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:47,760
Speaker 3: in New York was just like you walk around run

2126
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:48,759
Speaker 3: into people bullshit.

2127
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:49,120
Speaker 1: I know.

2128
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 3: I actually do sometimes come up with interesting things or

2129
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:55,879
Speaker 3: like share tips and whatever just because you saw someone.

2130
01:43:56,120 --> 01:43:57,360
Speaker 2: And I do think there's.

2131
01:43:57,280 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 4: Value there, No, there is, there is definitely. And I

2132
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:03,000
Speaker 4: was to say box as a New York office business

2133
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 4: insider does fortune does.

2134
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:07,240
Speaker 5: I just have always lived in California my entire lifests

2135
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:08,120
Speaker 5: and I'm not moving to New.

2136
01:44:08,120 --> 01:44:12,679
Speaker 1: York updated long term a heads that I was recently

2137
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 1: releasing the psychiatric Ward for example, That's where we met

2138
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:21,519
Speaker 1: those people. Like they may remember, I was very pro

2139
01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:23,920
Speaker 1: remote work and I still am. I've never been his

2140
01:44:24,080 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 1: anti office at all. Yeah, and that is like the

2141
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:29,879
Speaker 1: reason I do these in studio ones is because remote

2142
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 1: is fine. But this is cool. This is energy, Yes,

2143
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:36,000
Speaker 1: each other. We can be focused, and I think the

2144
01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:40,559
Speaker 1: I do it's the real dumb startup guy thing in

2145
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 1: my house, like we should have a coworking splost for

2146
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:45,400
Speaker 1: the tech media. That's like a really good twenty eleven

2147
01:44:45,439 --> 01:44:47,720
Speaker 1: asked Idea.

2148
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:49,080
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I think the thing that gets lost from

2149
01:44:49,280 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 3: like again, I'm older than you and like I came

2150
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 3: up in like where remote work was not a thing,

2151
01:44:56,040 --> 01:44:58,760
Speaker 3: not really, and like now I am very much a

2152
01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:01,120
Speaker 3: remote per in a lot of the time.

2153
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:04,679
Speaker 2: But like I do at least appreciate the.

2154
01:45:04,840 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 3: Time that I had in I think it means something

2155
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:11,080
Speaker 3: very different when you're when you're younger in your career

2156
01:45:11,160 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 3: rather than you're older in your career, and I forget that.

2157
01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 3: Like I was in the Times headquarters from twenty fourteen

2158
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, and that was super valuable for me because

2159
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:24,920
Speaker 3: like just the whole like fucking face time with who

2160
01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:27,559
Speaker 3: you should know or what everything is real? You know?

2161
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:30,519
Speaker 1: And I will like again, I'm like missed the remote work.

2162
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:33,800
Speaker 1: But my first job was at Pcson Magazine with Future,

2163
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:35,639
Speaker 1: and as miserable as that place was, it was because

2164
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:38,240
Speaker 1: of the management, yep, not because of people like Will

2165
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 1: Porter and Steve Hogatine, people I work with who were

2166
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,320
Speaker 1: there to tell me to stop playing World of Warcraft

2167
01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 1: during work. And then I would say to them, no,

2168
01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 1: I've done all my work, and then they would say, no,

2169
01:45:49,560 --> 01:45:51,640
Speaker 1: you haven't, and then I would say, yes, I have

2170
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 1: go check and then they would be really pissed off

2171
01:45:53,560 --> 01:45:56,679
Speaker 1: and tell me to stop playing anyway. Jokes aside, having

2172
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,599
Speaker 1: Will redline my shit in person broke my spira.

2173
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 5: Oh, that's awesome.

2174
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 1: But actually it was really valuable because I then went

2175
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:07,080
Speaker 1: and had coffee with Steve Hogerti, who then said he's

2176
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 1: right though, and that also hurt. But it was also

2177
01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:11,960
Speaker 1: the fact that I could go back to Will and

2178
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:13,960
Speaker 1: actually have a conversation about what the fuck he meant.

2179
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:18,479
Speaker 1: He's a wonderful edity, genuinely like and having that experience

2180
01:46:18,479 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 1: and then kind of like having the moment being like,

2181
01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:23,120
Speaker 1: oh my spirit, but not having that on my own

2182
01:46:23,320 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 1: at home, separated from the world, I actually think was

2183
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 1: quite valuable. It's just I keep coming back to this

2184
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 1: solidarity thing. I think it's just.

2185
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 5: We have that solidarity.

2186
01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:37,760
Speaker 4: I think, like physical physical I have adapted as a

2187
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:41,560
Speaker 4: journalist just fine. I would have loved a newsroom that

2188
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 4: would be great, but I adapted. I went to tons

2189
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 4: of events, I've met tons of and then I've also

2190
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,120
Speaker 4: like reached out to like more established journalists a ton

2191
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:50,600
Speaker 4: I'm like, hey, can I get your advice on this?

2192
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 4: All the time, and people my age, I think, like

2193
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:56,080
Speaker 4: I definitely have that as harsh as it is, like

2194
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,400
Speaker 4: especially in San Francisco, like, for instance, people on my beat.

2195
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:02,439
Speaker 4: Rachel met at Bloomberg. I see her at events. We

2196
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:05,640
Speaker 4: talk all the time, like having those people who are

2197
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:08,240
Speaker 4: more established who can be like hey, like, we still

2198
01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:10,720
Speaker 4: have that, I think, but younger generalists have to know

2199
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:11,720
Speaker 4: to reach out for that.

2200
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it's more defined. I'm just trying to find,

2201
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 1: like an excuse to throw a party.

2202
01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:18,799
Speaker 2: I think I would go to your party.

2203
01:47:19,040 --> 01:47:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2204
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:22,960
Speaker 4: The last time I saw Mike at a party actually

2205
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:24,040
Speaker 4: there was a thing in December.

2206
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:28,759
Speaker 1: But let's wrap this up though. So I've really enjoyed

2207
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:32,720
Speaker 1: having you both here. Thank you so much. Mike. Where

2208
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:33,519
Speaker 1: can people find you?

2209
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm writing occasionally at The New York Times,

2210
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:44,320
Speaker 3: where I work for my full time job, and then

2211
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:50,680
Speaker 3: on Twitter, but more on Instagram too now just like

2212
01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:53,280
Speaker 3: google my name and then you can find on my show.

2213
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:56,000
Speaker 3: So I wrote a book which if I would love

2214
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:59,519
Speaker 3: to plug. It's called super Pumped The Battle for Uber

2215
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:04,040
Speaker 3: And if you don't like reading, you can watch the show,

2216
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:05,400
Speaker 3: which is on Netflix.

2217
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 2: Right off the show, Thank you very cool.

2218
01:48:10,280 --> 01:48:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll just say I love that show so much

2219
01:48:12,920 --> 01:48:15,400
Speaker 4: because I had such a huge crush on Jesseph Gordon

2220
01:48:15,439 --> 01:48:17,559
Speaker 4: Levitt was growing up. And then I also didn't know

2221
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:21,280
Speaker 4: Travis Kalenick was such a dick. That show is awesome.

2222
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,400
Speaker 2: J g l is also a lovely human being, but.

2223
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:27,080
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I love him, so you.

2224
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:29,920
Speaker 2: Can be yeah, doubly secure.

2225
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,720
Speaker 1: And problem with that show was it felt like they

2226
01:48:32,760 --> 01:48:36,360
Speaker 1: cost the wrong guy as Travis. There's a guy who

2227
01:48:36,400 --> 01:48:39,639
Speaker 1: just looks exactly like Travis Kalenick who plays like coming.

2228
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was funny.

2229
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:43,600
Speaker 3: A lot of super employees were like, they should have

2230
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:44,880
Speaker 3: Kyle Chandlers.

2231
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:47,240
Speaker 5: So good. I ate that up.

2232
01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 4: Okay, you can find me on Twitter x at Kylie Bites.

2233
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:57,240
Speaker 4: I'm on threads at Kylie dot Robinson not Robinson with

2234
01:48:57,280 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 4: an N in the middle, no en And then I'm

2235
01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:02,519
Speaker 4: right the Verge full time about AI and tech stuff.

2236
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:04,599
Speaker 1: And you can find me, of course on the Better

2237
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 1: Offline podcast. Ask your parole officer to listen to you

2238
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 1: one podcast. I'm so sorry, I promise I don't think

2239
01:49:11,120 --> 01:49:13,720
Speaker 1: all of you are criminals. I love you all. I'm

2240
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,840
Speaker 1: saying it like I love you all, like the menu

2241
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:18,080
Speaker 1: if you remember that. Don't know if they let you

2242
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:21,799
Speaker 1: watch that clink, but thank you so much for listening everyone,

2243
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 1: Better offline dot com. You'll then get the same liner

2244
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:35,880
Speaker 1: that plays off every episode. Thank you for listening, Thank

2245
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:38,639
Speaker 1: you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer

2246
01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 1: of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can

2247
01:49:41,560 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 1: check out more of his music and audio projects at

2248
01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:47,400
Speaker 1: Mattasowski dot com, m A T T O s O

2249
01:49:48,080 --> 01:49:51,559
Speaker 1: W s ki dot com. You can email me at

2250
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 1: easy at Better offline dot com, or visit better offline

2251
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:56,519
Speaker 1: dot com to find more podcast links and of course

2252
01:49:56,560 --> 01:49:59,759
Speaker 1: my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chatt

2253
01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 1: your ed dot am to visit the discord and go

2254
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 1: to our slash Better Offline to check out I'll Reddit.

2255
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:07,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.

2256
01:50:08,040 --> 01:50:10,519
Speaker 5: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

2257
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

2258
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 4: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

2259
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:19,640
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts