Speaker 1: Welcome to tonight's classic episode. You know what, three flavors
Speaker 1: go great together. Contrast obviously cocaine, great edition and our
Speaker 1: good friends at the CIA.
Speaker 2: Yeaham and Tom Cruise apparently because he starred in the
Speaker 2: movie about this guy that we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 3: Oh that's right. What was the movie Cause it's about
Speaker 3: like a plane smuggling operation.
Speaker 2: Right, it's called American Maid.
Speaker 3: That's the one.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And this is the true story of pilot
Speaker 1: and smuggler named Barry Seal.
Speaker 2: Let's get to it.
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
Speaker 2: name is Nolan.
Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We were joined as always with
Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control decand most importantly, you
Speaker 1: are you. You are here and that makes this stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2: Every time you do that, every time you do, I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm about to get into some kind of
Speaker 2: freestyle or something. There's a cadence to it when you
Speaker 2: did did do? Didn't? Didn't? Did do? I get so hyped.
Speaker 1: Have you been listening to a lot of hip hop recently?
Speaker 3: A little bit?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've got to send you some
Speaker 1: stuff as well. I've been listening to some amazing things.
Speaker 1: I almost caught. I was in Vegas.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: Circumstances found me in Vegas this past weekend and I
Speaker 1: almost ended up at at a weird party with some
Speaker 1: notable people. But being lame, I went to my hotel
Speaker 1: and read a book.
Speaker 2: Yeah you did wink?
Speaker 1: He did?
Speaker 2: He totally ran that party, I think so. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: looking at Noel over here, you dead dude.
Speaker 3: I think he's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: How do you guys have a good weekend?
Speaker 2: Yeah? A great weekend. Hey, I played a lot of
Speaker 2: that Detroit Becoming Human. It was the free game on
Speaker 2: the PlayStation Network in July. Totally worth it, best game
Speaker 2: I'm played in a long time. Highly recommend it. If
Speaker 2: you're into story, if you want some complex gameplay, don't
Speaker 2: do it. But if you just want to learn about
Speaker 2: how androids will one day, you know, become a free
Speaker 2: and independent people, go for it.
Speaker 1: In Detroit. They'll become human in Detroit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll well, in my case, I don't spoil it
Speaker 2: for anybody. Things turn out. Well, that's good.
Speaker 1: I've got to say. It's so it's so weird that
Speaker 1: we don't do more video game stuff. I would love
Speaker 1: to play a video game called stuff. They don't want
Speaker 1: you to know that weird hand and you know, maybe
Speaker 1: one day, maybe one day, Well, we'll mess with some
Speaker 1: video game type folks.
Speaker 3: I really like old LIKEDEO games that tied in with
Speaker 3: movies that look nothing like the movie, Like on Nintendo.
Speaker 3: You know, it would be like back to the future
Speaker 3: of the game, but you'd just be like this little
Speaker 3: block game Hardymonfly. Yeah, you know, like remember ET the game.
Speaker 1: That was where I was just gonna mention that, yeah,
Speaker 1: ET the game one of the universally agreed worst video
Speaker 1: games ever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think there's an.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, see, but in our video game, you'd get
Speaker 2: to choose to be one of us or Paul, and
Speaker 2: you would go through and you'd have to solve conspiracies
Speaker 2: with the help of the others. It would be a
Speaker 2: multiplayer game. You could have four people at once playing, right,
Speaker 2: can you play solo? You can totally play so That's
Speaker 2: how I would play it, Okay, But what I'm saying is,
Speaker 2: if you were into playing together, you guys could investigate,
Speaker 2: go down different leads, you report back. Ben's found out
Speaker 2: everything about the Black Hand. I've been busy over here
Speaker 2: with an extraterrestrial angle for some reason. They're connected. Then
Speaker 2: we figure out the next place to go. I'm telling
Speaker 2: you this video game rules. Get at me and Ben
Speaker 2: and Nol and Paul whoever you are, you video game
Speaker 2: developers out.
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, tell us your idea if you had if
Speaker 1: you had a video game about your own personal experience,
Speaker 1: what would it be. You don't have to write it
Speaker 1: all out. You can call us and give us your
Speaker 1: three minute pitch.
Speaker 2: We are one eight three three std WYTK.
Speaker 1: If you're a longtime listener, you can probably tell that
Speaker 1: we're all we're all film buffs here or voracious sponges
Speaker 1: of story and information. We enjoy that in terms of
Speaker 1: video games, in terms of music, art and you know,
Speaker 1: film and books and so on. And we were talking
Speaker 1: a little bit off air about Tom Cruise, who will
Speaker 1: be familiar to all our fans of Tom Cruise Control
Speaker 1: mentioned in earlier episode in twenty seventeen, the actor Tom
Speaker 1: Cruise starred in a film called American Maid. American Maid
Speaker 1: follows the highly fictionalized life and time of a real
Speaker 1: life pilot named Barry Seal.
Speaker 2: A pilot amongst other things.
Speaker 1: A pilot amongst other things. And we asked, oh, I
Speaker 1: forget that, Paul Michigan control, how you doing today? All right?
Speaker 1: We got a good thumbs up, and Paul, you also
Speaker 1: gave a thumbs up to American Made.
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 1: That's official? Double thumbs Wow.
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to know how I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Wait a second, I asked how you guys were doing.
Speaker 1: That was my fault, Yeah, said, how are you guys
Speaker 1: doing that?
Speaker 2: I derailed it and I sent it to Ben. That
Speaker 2: was my fault.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, it's cool.
Speaker 2: Tell me what's cool? What's up in your life? Nol?
Speaker 2: Did you go on that date we talked about?
Speaker 3: I take it on a day. It's true. I saw
Speaker 3: a fantastic movie that you guy should all see, called
Speaker 3: The Last Black Man in San Francisco. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like a weird It kind of fits
Speaker 3: in with our show because it's got this weird kind
Speaker 3: of alternative history version of San Francisco, where like everyone
Speaker 3: that grew up there has been forced out, which is
Speaker 3: not made up at all. That's absolutely what's happening. But
Speaker 3: there's this backdrop of this kind of like toxic event
Speaker 3: that they never really name, but like the fish are
Speaker 3: poison and like the water is all poison, and the
Speaker 3: whole thing has this like kind of crazy Terry Gilliam
Speaker 3: or like Michelle Gondry kind of vibe. I really recommend
Speaker 3: it highly, very dreamlike, very powerful, very very special movie.
Speaker 3: I liked it a lot.
Speaker 1: Done were the what were the ratings or reviews?
Speaker 3: They were good, They're very good. But I just, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it's something it's hard to describe, and I'm
Speaker 3: not even gonna bother trying too hard, but something that
Speaker 3: you guys should all see.
Speaker 2: I think, Well, the movie we're talking about today, American made,
Speaker 2: has some pretty dang good ratings, at least according to
Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes.
Speaker 1: Right, what are the premier rating sites? Can you lay
Speaker 1: those numbers on us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's give it to your critics gave it eighty
Speaker 2: six percent. The audience gave it seventy eight. Now generally
Speaker 2: gotta say those two numbers are flopped where the critics
Speaker 2: will give it a slightly lower rating, and then audience
Speaker 2: members will enjoy a movie a little bit better than
Speaker 2: the critics perhaps gave it a give it credit for. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but in this movie, in this case,
Speaker 2: the critics really liked it.
Speaker 1: And here's the question, would those ratings change if the
Speaker 1: film were to follow the true story of Barry Seal,
Speaker 1: the story that even today runs rife with the stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. So here are the facts.
Speaker 1: We've been throwing this name around a lot. Berry Seal.
Speaker 1: Who is Barry Seal.
Speaker 3: Barry Seal was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana on July sixteenth,
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty nine, and his father was a candy wholesaler
Speaker 3: and a clansman. Yeah, he was a member of the
Speaker 3: Ku Klux Klan, which you know that sounds like on
Speaker 3: the conspiratorial side today, but at the time it was
Speaker 3: pretty commonplace for white dudes in Baton Rouge. Sad but true.
Speaker 3: So Barry grew up obsessed with airplanes and he took
Speaker 3: his first solo flight at fifteen, one year before he
Speaker 3: actually got his legit pilot's license, and then not too
Speaker 3: long after that, he worked for one of those companies
Speaker 3: that have like the banners that the toad behind the
Speaker 3: planes for advertising, which is a thing that I've always
Speaker 3: been fascinated by, like who is that person that does that?
Speaker 1: It was very seal, and it's a great idea for
Speaker 1: prank two. It's on my secret list of dream pranks,
Speaker 1: is to take one of those advertising banners. This is
Speaker 1: the most sith lord version. Take an advertising banner. Hire
Speaker 1: someone to fly out a banner that says will you
Speaker 1: marry me? And just hear the relationships crumble around the
Speaker 1: city for anyone who accidentally looks up and then their
Speaker 1: their significant other goes, oh my god, yes I will.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've always thought that was a pretty like blunt instrument
Speaker 3: way of doing that right, Like, you know, in general.
Speaker 1: It's pretty inconsiderate, super.
Speaker 3: Ruin everybody's beach day.
Speaker 2: So to jump back to very seal really fast, you guys, Yes,
Speaker 2: it's fascinating. Here is one of the first things we've
Speaker 2: learned about him is that prior to even getting a
Speaker 2: pilot's license, he's bending the rules a little bit and
Speaker 2: taking a solo flight, something that is both irresponsible really
Speaker 2: dangerous to himself, but also adventurous, right sure, Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: adrenaline junkie. Adrenaline junkie living on the edge of the rules.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also has myopic obsessions. To be fair, it's
Speaker 1: safe to say that many many people in this country
Speaker 1: in the US do something similar when they're learning to
Speaker 1: drive cars. Right, your parents are an older person or
Speaker 1: someone with a license will take you out to a
Speaker 1: parking lot, and generally law enforcement will look the other
Speaker 1: way as this fourteen year old is just stripping a clutch,
Speaker 1: you know. But it's a little different, I would argue
Speaker 1: with planes, right, and his obsession with flight in general
Speaker 1: would lead him to the first steps on his long, controversial, conspiratorial,
Speaker 1: and ultimately fatal career. He joined the Civil Air Patrol
Speaker 1: in fifty five and he stayed based in Baton Rouge,
Speaker 1: and he took part in a Civil Air Patrol joint
Speaker 1: training mission with the New Orleans unit that was run
Speaker 1: by a guy named David Ferry. David Ferry later will
Speaker 1: be a peripheral figure in the JFK assassination.
Speaker 2: And that's not all of the connection between this character,
Speaker 2: Barry Seal and the JFK assassination.
Speaker 1: Whatever do you mean?
Speaker 2: I mean, there's somebody else that allegedly he met. At
Speaker 2: least according to another Civil Air Patrol member person named
Speaker 2: John Odum, they say that Seal actually encountered mister Lee
Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald while he was training.
Speaker 1: Oh oh, that's true. But wait, wait there's more. As
Speaker 1: more as Billy Mays was wont to say. Yes, Tosh Plumbley,
Speaker 1: another figure later related to the JFK assassination.
Speaker 3: That is a great name, by the way, hash Plumbley.
Speaker 3: I love that sounds like a character and clue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does. He claims that Barry Seal began
Speaker 1: working for the CIA in the mid nineteen fifties. We
Speaker 1: have a quote from Toash on this.
Speaker 3: I think Tosh Plumbley would sound like Berry. Seal was
Speaker 3: involved with military intelligence in the early days. Military intelligence
Speaker 3: was the real game, with the CIA just acting as
Speaker 3: logistical people. Berry was a periveral player back then. But
Speaker 3: he was a CIA contract pilot all the way back
Speaker 3: to nineteen fifty six or fifty seven.
Speaker 2: Now remember this is Matton Rouge.
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter. This is how Plumbley sounds. My man. He's
Speaker 3: an aristocrat of the highest order.
Speaker 1: And Seal would later in sworn testimony, deny any affiliation
Speaker 1: with the CIA whatsoever in any shape, form or fashion.
Speaker 1: That'll come up later. Let's keep going. In nineteen fifty eight,
Speaker 1: he began ferrying weapons to Fidel Castro fighting against the
Speaker 1: Batista regime in Cuba. At the same time, a section
Speaker 1: of the CIA was supporting the overthrow of the Batistas.
Speaker 1: So if he said he had no involvement, I guess
Speaker 1: he was. Who was just another contractor. And maybe maybe
Speaker 1: Castro had like a four thirty pm appointment with a
Speaker 1: CIA and a five p fifteen appointment with Barry Seal.
Speaker 1: Who knows, or.
Speaker 2: Maybe he wasn't actually meeting. Here's the tough thing. It
Speaker 2: seems as though if you are going to be flying
Speaker 2: weapons in to a group, like at least any member
Speaker 2: of Fidel Castro's resistance force you are going to, it's
Speaker 2: going to be a known mission, right, There's gonna be
Speaker 2: a lot of handling that occurs with that. It's not
Speaker 2: just oh, hey, I'm gonna I'll be there around three.
Speaker 2: See see in a little bit, Fidel guys, Fidel's dudes.
Speaker 2: I guess just what I'm saying is it was certainly
Speaker 2: under the radar when it was occurring right with authorities,
Speaker 2: or at least he would have to be unless it
Speaker 2: was explicitly known that this was occurring as a mission
Speaker 2: in part of the CIA.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's another part, because astute listeners you just
Speaker 1: heard us say the CIA was at the time supporting
Speaker 1: the overthrow of Bautista. However, the policy changed soon after
Speaker 1: Castro gained power and Barry Seal apparently started taking part
Speaker 1: in air attacks on the emergent new government. Either way,
Speaker 1: they liked what he's doing. Nineteen fifty nine, he became
Speaker 1: a CIA pilot in Guatemala.
Speaker 2: It's true, and we were I'm just trying to point
Speaker 2: out some things here that have to do with themes
Speaker 2: with Barry's life. Right, This idea of possibly playing both
Speaker 2: sides there, of both supplying the new regime with weapons
Speaker 2: but then also participating in tax once they've gained power, exactly.
Speaker 1: Kind of a fair weather friend at the very least exactly.
Speaker 2: So let's go let's go to nineteen fifty nine. Now
Speaker 2: he's in Guatemala and he's officially a CIA pilot.
Speaker 1: He has officially a CIA pilot in Guatemala. It's also
Speaker 1: believed He was involved in training Cuban exiles on No
Speaker 1: Name Key Another Excellent Name in Florida and on the
Speaker 1: north shore of Lake Ponch Train in Louisiana. He also
Speaker 1: ran a couple of companies based in his hometown, Baton Rouge,
Speaker 1: Seal Sky Service and Aerial Advertising Associates. That's the banner
Speaker 1: thing we talked about earlier. He had an office in
Speaker 1: the International Trade Center run by Clay Shaw.
Speaker 2: Can we just talk about Aerial Advertising Associates? Sure, Triple A.
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, you're gonna get in trouble
Speaker 2: just with those a's, right, you can't. You can't just
Speaker 2: use all three a's. Come on, there's a big company
Speaker 2: out there. They're gonna take you down. But the other
Speaker 2: thing is it sounds like some kind of CIA front,
Speaker 2: doesn't it. When we've over the course of this show,
Speaker 2: every CIA FBI front has the most banal name to
Speaker 2: it of the most This is exactly what this thing is.
Speaker 2: It feels very much like that to me, not saying
Speaker 2: it was a CIA front, just saying.
Speaker 1: Sure, it's like Legitimate Business Partners Associated LLC.
Speaker 2: Yeah, American No, not American Airlines. What was it called?
Speaker 2: Was the big one are America?
Speaker 1: Yeah, how could you hate that? Do you hate America?
Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty two December, he joins the twenty
Speaker 1: first Special Forces Group. He attends the Fort Benning Jump
Speaker 1: School in sixty three. The next year, he's assigned to
Speaker 1: Company D, Special Operations Detachment of the twentieth Special Forces
Speaker 1: Group Airborne. In sixty four, he joins the two hundred
Speaker 1: and forty fifth Engineer Battalion based in Saint Louis. He
Speaker 1: leaves there in sixty six. He serves in the Louisiana
Speaker 1: RB National Guard the Army Reserve. He joins TWA trans
Speaker 1: World Airlines in nineteen sixty eight as a flight engineer
Speaker 1: and later becomes one of the youngest command pilots in
Speaker 1: the entire fleet. So he loves flying. He's good at it.
Speaker 1: You just can't entirely trust that he will have your
Speaker 1: back with the chips are down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he has had a lot of involvement with
Speaker 2: various military groups. It's he's an experienced guy by the time.
Speaker 2: He's not that old.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly?
Speaker 2: Was he born thirty nine?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 2: Wow, so not even thirty.
Speaker 1: And his shady and at times contradictory career finally caught
Speaker 1: up with Barry Seal. On July one, nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 1: he was arrested in New Orleans. He was accused of
Speaker 1: sending C four explosives to anti Castro Cubans based in Mexico.
Speaker 1: A DC four on the plane news Line was seized
Speaker 1: at the Shreveport Regional Airport, loaded with around seven tons
Speaker 1: of plastic explosives, seven thousand feet of explosive primer cord,
Speaker 1: and two thousand, six hundred electric blasting caps. So this
Speaker 1: was going to be one hell of a party.
Speaker 3: And then James Miller, Richmond Harper, and Marlon Hagler and
Speaker 3: also somebody Murray Kessler were arrested along with Cel and
Speaker 3: Kessler's partner, man by the name of Manny Gambino, was
Speaker 3: kidnapped around the same time the others were arrested. Very
Speaker 3: fishy in Gambino's course, was later found in a New
Speaker 3: Jersey garbage jump some mob stuff right here, right, This
Speaker 3: is that Gambino clearly exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, then the plot just continues to thicken after
Speaker 2: that because rue at this point, yes, very nice little
Speaker 2: because that plane, the DC four, was actually owned by
Speaker 2: this guy named James Boy who was in fact an associate,
Speaker 2: a known associate of the CIA.
Speaker 1: James Boy, a terrible terrible Jim Jimmy Boy, Jim plumbley
Speaker 1: and Boy and James Boy.
Speaker 3: Great the sounds like made up names. I love it.
Speaker 2: Well here's again, there there are these weird.
Speaker 1: This is a web. This is a string in the web.
Speaker 2: It's literally a Gary Webb. And uh so this guy,
Speaker 2: James Boy, his aircraft laid was used by Oliver North
Speaker 2: essentially to send mercenaries hired by him to fly in
Speaker 2: and out of Honduras. Which again we've got three points
Speaker 2: of connection here already that are just mind.
Speaker 1: Blowing right right, Maybe not enough connections to jump to
Speaker 1: a conclusion, no, but three points is what you need
Speaker 1: to climb up a conspiracy mountain. Right there you go.
Speaker 1: So the man who organized the entrapment of Seal, the
Speaker 1: reason he got caught with all these explosives and that
Speaker 1: his friends got caught as well, was a guy named
Speaker 1: Csario dil Stado, an official with US Customs. It took
Speaker 1: the authorities over two years to bring Seal and co.
Speaker 1: To trial, and then things got really fishy. So the
Speaker 1: trial finally gets underway June nineteen seventy four. But government
Speaker 1: prosecutors do something that automatically, without questions, sinks the case.
Speaker 1: They introduce into evidence an automatic weapon that has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the charges against the defendants. None of
Speaker 1: them have ever touched. The chain of custody is completely
Speaker 1: unrelated to them, and so a mistrial is declared. Seal
Speaker 1: and his buddies are released, no probation, no monitoring, no sentencing.
Speaker 1: This was not to be his first arrest.
Speaker 2: And this is about a plane filled to the brim
Speaker 2: with explosives. Okay, not quite that large, but enough explosives,
Speaker 2: like we said, to do serious damage somewhere, and they
Speaker 2: just get let off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is also going to become a pattern in
Speaker 1: the life of Seal. This was not to be, of course,
Speaker 1: his final arrest. But what we can see is that
Speaker 1: evidence indicates that at every step along the way, someone,
Speaker 1: some suit would step in and take over the investigation.
Speaker 1: After Barry's first arrest, his career takes off, or maybe
Speaker 1: it's more appropriate to say it veers off in a darker,
Speaker 1: more sinister direction, and we'll we'll ex i am in
Speaker 1: a little bit about that, but first let's talk about
Speaker 1: his death. This is the hinge of today's episode, and we'll.
Speaker 2: Talk about it right after a quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: On February nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Barry Seal was shot
Speaker 1: to death by a machine gun in front of a
Speaker 1: Salvation Army facility located on Airline Highway in his hometown
Speaker 1: of Baton Rouge. And I believe we can play a
Speaker 1: little clip of the reporting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this will be a really short clip from NBC.
Speaker 4: He used to smuggle drugs and he got caught and
Speaker 4: he became one of the government's most valuable informants in
Speaker 4: the war against cocaine. But last night in Louisiana, Barry
Speaker 4: Seal's enemies caught up with him and killed him tonight.
Speaker 1: So Barry's murder ends a DEA investigation. The investigator drug
Speaker 1: Enforcement Agency, the investigation was never resolved, has not been
Speaker 1: to this day, and according to some sources, the murder
Speaker 1: was never truly solved either.
Speaker 2: And just to continue with this web motif that we're
Speaker 2: already starting to create here and all of the themes,
Speaker 2: we realized that Barry's death connected directly to a two
Speaker 2: part series we made in twenty sixteen called Banks, Drugs
Speaker 2: and Money that was based on a film called The Infiltrader.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and Barry Seal appears in The Infiltrator, which
Speaker 1: is inspired by true events. I believe he has a
Speaker 1: different sort of death in this story though, Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, because you know in the series we're talking
Speaker 2: to Robert Maser, right, and he was this DA agent
Speaker 2: who went undercover and he ended up busting up part
Speaker 2: at least of Pablo Escobar's drug trafficking cartel and then
Speaker 2: sinking an international bank that was connected to that cartel.
Speaker 2: And in this movie, there's a scene where Robert Maser's
Speaker 2: character is being driven around by Barry Seal, and Barry
Speaker 2: Seal's character is complaining, essentially complaining about Ronald Reagan and
Speaker 2: Nancy Reagan and anti drug movement, talking about his high
Speaker 2: level connections with government officials essentially, and how he's been
Speaker 2: doing this stuff trafficking drugs for the government essentially.
Speaker 3: I didn't clock at all of that was him in
Speaker 3: the movie.
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, he's introduced and it's kind of shown that way.
Speaker 2: But then instead of the way we've described it before,
Speaker 2: where Barry being shot to death in front of the
Speaker 2: Salvation Army facility, just in his car or as he's
Speaker 2: getting out of his car he's killed within a drive
Speaker 2: by a motorcycle assassin essentially comes by and shoots him
Speaker 2: while he's driving the car. And we noticed that this
Speaker 2: was the only depiction of Barry Seal's death where he
Speaker 2: wasn't just in his car or getting out of his vehicle.
Speaker 2: He was actually driving while it was occurring. So to
Speaker 2: our mind, and I guess to your mind, you should
Speaker 2: at least know that that's probably not what happened to him.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, we I think it's just
Speaker 2: interesting to note these connections we've been making here. Before
Speaker 2: we started this episode, Noel pointed out that he felt
Speaker 2: like he had already talked about Barry Seal, and then
Speaker 2: we discussed how in covering Gary Webb, who was the
Speaker 2: other guy, Bob Robert Maser and I think there was
Speaker 2: one other main story that we've spoken about before where
Speaker 2: it was CIA drug trafficking. Many just how common this
Speaker 2: feels to us.
Speaker 1: So if that's not really what happened, if it wasn't
Speaker 1: really a motorcycle drive by, then what did actually occur?
Speaker 1: Who killed Barry Seal and why? Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1: So we talked about that first arrest, and we mentioned
Speaker 1: that his career changed after his first arrest in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, when Barry got off scott Free, he went
Speaker 1: face first into drug smuggling, both for drug cartels and
Speaker 1: apparently eventually for factions of Uncle Sam the US government.
Speaker 1: His talent, his bravado, his hutzba had attracted the attention
Speaker 1: of the Median cartel and their leader, Bablo Escobar, who
Speaker 1: many of us may recognize from Netflix. It was on
Speaker 1: Escobar's suggestion that Barry Seal moved his airstrip from Louisiana
Speaker 1: to kind of a podunk place in West Arkansas, and
Speaker 1: by the early nineteen eighties he had orchestrated the importation
Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds of cocaine and marijuana into the
Speaker 1: US via this middle of nowhere strip in Arkansas. And
Speaker 1: he started out, as far as we can tell, kind
Speaker 1: of smuggling marijuana on his own, and then he realized
Speaker 1: that pound for pound cocaine is where you get the
Speaker 1: most gas.
Speaker 3: Funding is he depicted in that Netflix show Narcos.
Speaker 2: Alert Barry Seal is in Narcos.
Speaker 3: He is okay I once in the first season. It's
Speaker 3: been a while.
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, his death is all also portrayed in Narcos.
Speaker 3: I thought that rang a ball. It's been a lot
Speaker 3: times I've seen that, but that makes sense.
Speaker 1: His death has been actually depicted multiple times, which is
Speaker 1: surprising because he's not a huge public figure today and
Speaker 1: arguably he should be. He was busted again in Florida
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, who was charged with conspiracy to
Speaker 1: distribute get this, four hundred and sixty two pounds of coke.
Speaker 1: That's an estimated street value in nineteen eighty three of
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty eight million. So just for just
Speaker 1: for giggles, let's look at how much one hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty eight million dollars in nineteen eighty three is worth
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. We're gonna pull up the number with
Speaker 1: some help from Mission ConTroll. Do we get a drum roll? Please?
Speaker 2: Just a sound of someone snorting something on a table?
Speaker 1: Even better?
Speaker 2: Perfect.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you found the happy, happy medium
Speaker 1: between those, Paul, But by god, that's why, that's why
Speaker 1: you're a super producer.
Speaker 2: Is that's so hard, right? I know?
Speaker 1: Wen, we'd have to take ol to Applebeast to apologize.
Speaker 1: Here's the answer. One hundred and sixty eight million dollars
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three has the purchasing power of over
Speaker 1: four hundred and thirty two million dollars in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: so it's more than doubled over that time. He was
Speaker 1: on the way to becoming a what we would consider
Speaker 1: it a billionaire today.
Speaker 3: Wow, you want here's something else in Miamic You chuckle?
Speaker 1: What's that?
Speaker 3: Barry seals alias or one of them was Ellis mcpickle, No.
Speaker 1: Not Ellis Ellis mcpickll. He seemed like such a good
Speaker 1: stand up guy. It's weird because you wonder why he
Speaker 1: would need an alias, right, Smugglers often do. But he
Speaker 1: turned and started working for the FEDS as an informant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he got caught with one hundred and sixty
Speaker 2: eight million dollars worth of cocaine. So he was either
Speaker 2: just gonna go away forever or he was gonna turn
Speaker 2: and start working for the FEDS.
Speaker 1: Got flipped, yeah hard, You got flips hard. So the
Speaker 1: DEA cracked this deal with him. They said, all right, Barry,
Speaker 1: keep carrying on your business as usual, keep flying your
Speaker 1: smuggling roots. We're gonna give your plane the exhibit treatment.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. We're going to put high
Speaker 1: tech surveillance equipment in there, and we're gonna pimp your
Speaker 1: ride to include the most expensive cryptic radio communications we
Speaker 1: had ever seen at the time, according to DEA agent
Speaker 1: Ernest Jacobson, and and it paid off.
Speaker 3: It delivered.
Speaker 2: On his first trip, Oh yeah, he got some photographs
Speaker 2: of Cuban officials, Nicaraguan's soldiers and Sandinista government officers hauling
Speaker 2: duffel bags of cocaine. Hauling duffel bags. These are officials.
Speaker 2: They're just picking them up and loading on the plane.
Speaker 2: You can see a little bit of footage in this
Speaker 2: from that NBC clip we played earlier. You can find
Speaker 2: it on the YouTube video. It's insane. He even brought
Speaker 2: back a picture of this guy, this kind of ghost
Speaker 2: or this myth that exists out there, Pablo Escobar. But
Speaker 2: he was he was in one of those striped polo
Speaker 2: shirts that I can't remember if it was portrayed this
Speaker 2: way in the infiltrator, but you've seen media or depictions
Speaker 2: of Pablo Escobar in this shirt.
Speaker 1: Hot down there.
Speaker 2: And seals Intel then transformed him into literally the most
Speaker 2: significant witness in the US's war on drugs almost overnight.
Speaker 2: We literally that's what occurred. This this thing we've kind
Speaker 2: of told you about, where he got arrested with all
Speaker 2: this stuff, got flipped, got his plane, pimps, went out
Speaker 2: there and started doing this stuff. It was not a
Speaker 2: long term situation.
Speaker 1: It was a slow burn, You're right, Matt. In fact,
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Inquirer later called Seal quote the most important
Speaker 1: witness in the history of the US Drug Enforcement edmundration. Wow,
Speaker 1: not in terms of this project, but in terms of
Speaker 1: the history of the administration.
Speaker 2: Can we just talk about the stakes at which he's
Speaker 2: playing his life right now? Sure, after you know, having
Speaker 2: a military career through all that stuff, then flipping to
Speaker 2: become a drug smuggler, then flipping back to being an agent.
Speaker 3: Out of control. Can you imagine, like how this guy
Speaker 3: slept at night?
Speaker 2: No, I really.
Speaker 1: Care how much he slept.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you think.
Speaker 3: He was getting high on his own supply?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Well? But still though, wouldn't that bring about wouldn't that
Speaker 2: enhance the paranoia that you would probably feel in that
Speaker 2: situation if you're anywhere near a normally function Sure, and
Speaker 2: the lack of.
Speaker 3: Sleep, paired with the effects of the narcotics themselves. I'm
Speaker 3: sure he was a mess.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean I would imagine just the stress.
Speaker 1: Not long into his career as an informant, trouble begins.
Speaker 1: There's a front page story in the Washington Times by
Speaker 1: journalist Edmund Jacobi which seems to outsee you as a
Speaker 1: government agent. This is also one of the first public
Speaker 1: statements that later led to the Iran Contra scandal. And
Speaker 1: the DEA said, well, a known snitch is a no
Speaker 1: good snitch to us. Yeah, yep. So they cut him loose,
Speaker 1: and not long after, the FBI arrest him in Louisiana
Speaker 1: and the Baton Rouge US Attorney's office says we're gonna
Speaker 1: We're gonna put this guy away for being a kingpin.
Speaker 2: He's like, what brutal, I'm just flying planes for y'all.
Speaker 1: And they somehow in a country that will put people
Speaker 1: under the prison for like small time possession, you know,
Speaker 1: like barely intend to distribute. He was slapped for five
Speaker 1: years probation and then they had to six months at
Speaker 1: a local halfway house. This is kind of like the
Speaker 1: drug dealer version of a Jeffrey Epstein quote unquote deal
Speaker 1: and that's why he ended up at that Salvation Army
Speaker 1: on Airline Highway. That was part of his probation, and
Speaker 1: that's where he was murdered in February of nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 1: And he was murdered, But who actually murdered him? We
Speaker 1: will give you our best guess and warning, this is
Speaker 1: a little bit off the edges of the map, so
Speaker 1: there's some speculation involved, but you'll learn more afterword from
Speaker 1: our sponsor. Okay, two things, let's divide it two ways,
Speaker 1: dividing conquer. First, there is the official story. You can't
Speaker 1: see it here, folks, but I'm sort of waving my
Speaker 1: right hand in the air. And then there are the
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. I'm waving my left hand in the air.
Speaker 1: Who would have killed Barry Seal? And why? The official
Speaker 1: story is pretty clear? Legally speaking, this is solved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was obviously having something to do
Speaker 2: with his involvement with these drug cartels and essentially assisting
Speaker 2: in bringing them down and you know, going to give
Speaker 2: testimony against them, right.
Speaker 3: But I mean, even if he wasn't going to testify
Speaker 3: drug cartels, don't take kindly to folks that, you know,
Speaker 3: leave the life, right not to mention that are like
Speaker 3: cooperating with any kind of law enforcement.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The cartels, even back then were infamous for
Speaker 1: their brutality, their inhumanity, their cruelty, and being an informant,
Speaker 1: regardless of which cartel it is. This was medane related,
Speaker 1: but being an informant is a tremendous, profound sin in
Speaker 1: the culture of cartels. This means that if you are
Speaker 1: caught snitching, you the thought of a quick, clean death
Speaker 1: is an unreasonably happy outcome. Pigs will fly before. The
Speaker 1: cleanest way you can die is by your own hand.
Speaker 2: That's it, you know, well, it's almost it would be.
Speaker 2: If you could control how this person and dies, it
Speaker 2: would not be a fast death. Right, that's the.
Speaker 1: Idea, right, because the cartel at plans, right, they didn't
Speaker 1: just want him dead for informing or cost him millions
Speaker 1: of lost product. And let's be honest, that's compounded on
Speaker 1: millions and bribes because now the government officials they're bribing
Speaker 1: have more leverage to say, oh well, things are getting
Speaker 1: a little hot right now. You know, wouldn't want the
Speaker 1: US president finding out about this, And they're like, come on, Oliver,
Speaker 1: be cool, Oliver North.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly well, and then let's talk about the situation
Speaker 2: he's alone in his car at the Salvation Army. Someone
Speaker 2: approaches him and shoots bullets into him while he's sitting
Speaker 2: there in his car. If this were situation where it
Speaker 2: was preferable to kidnap him, it seems like that would
Speaker 2: have been an easy situation to accommodate that.
Speaker 1: Right because the way cartels do it, the way cartels
Speaker 1: handle this stuff internally, as they'll put out a bounty,
Speaker 1: and the bounty will have a pricing schedule will based
Speaker 1: on the person being delivered alive which is preferable, the
Speaker 1: person being delivered sort of alive but maimed, which is
Speaker 1: a little bit less, or the person being dead, which
Speaker 1: is proof of death. You know, you have a body
Speaker 1: part or a port or something. Cartel wanted him kidnapped
Speaker 1: so they could slowly torture him, not just to get
Speaker 1: their giggles and their jollys, but also as an example
Speaker 1: for other potential turncoats who were also pilots or government affiliates, and.
Speaker 3: Maybe even get some information about who he talked to
Speaker 3: and what he told them, so they could get a
Speaker 3: sense of how to get ahead of it, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that's assuming that they're not already in
Speaker 1: cahoots with Uncle Sam. Right. Yeah, So, as you said, Matt,
Speaker 1: here's the evidence. So Columbian assassins were sent by the
Speaker 1: Medine cartel. They were apprehended while trying to leave Louisiana
Speaker 1: shortly after Seal's murder. That's true. The authorities then reasonably
Speaker 1: concluded Seal's murderers were hired by the Achoa brothers. These
Speaker 1: three assass since we're indicted on March twenty seventh, nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty six. In May of nineteen eighty seven, these three
Speaker 1: men are convicted of first degree murder in Seal's death.
Speaker 1: They are sentenced to life in prison without parole. Their
Speaker 1: names are Louis Carlos Quinto Cruz, Miguel Velez, and Bernando
Speaker 1: Antonio Vasquez. And on March sixteenth, nineteen eighty six, one
Speaker 1: month after Seal is assassinated, then President Ronald Reagan tries
Speaker 1: to get more congressional support for the contrast, and he
Speaker 1: is showing off some photographs Seal has taken during his
Speaker 1: time as an informant. Reagan suggests that a top ranking
Speaker 1: Sandinista official is involved in drug smuggling, which is hilarious,
Speaker 1: and I'm really sad that Reagan's comedy career didn't take off.
Speaker 1: Then he was a man ahead of his time.
Speaker 3: He did some physical comedy in the movies back in the.
Speaker 1: Day, right, Yeah, I mean he did some pretty comedic
Speaker 1: things in his time as president too.
Speaker 3: Also true.
Speaker 2: So okay, should we talk about how we feel about
Speaker 2: this one yet or should we just go?
Speaker 1: I mean, legally speaking, that's true.
Speaker 2: They were convicted, Well, they were convicted showing that they
Speaker 2: actually pulled the trigger and knowing that they were trying
Speaker 2: to leave the country after this guy died. It feels
Speaker 2: like two very different things. But I guess if they
Speaker 2: were convicted, I don't know the full details. We don't
Speaker 2: have the full details that'll lay out here for you
Speaker 2: about you know, the weapons that were used and the
Speaker 2: bullets that were found, and trajectory and all of the
Speaker 2: forensics on that scene. But you know, okay, that feels plausible.
Speaker 1: Yes, Now we'll enter the realm of what is still
Speaker 1: oddly sorry, let me be serious when I say this.
Speaker 1: Now we're entering the realm of what is still oddly
Speaker 1: enough considered conspiracy theory. What if Uncle Sam was somehow involved.
Speaker 1: What if the FEDS were somehow involved, what would their
Speaker 1: motivation be. The motivation for the cartel is that this
Speaker 1: guy was new informant and bad for business and could
Speaker 1: make business even worse if, as you said, no, they
Speaker 1: got information from.
Speaker 2: Him and he could testify it, and he could testify.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Uncle Sam's motivation for those who believe that the
Speaker 1: US was involved in this assassination was that he could.
Speaker 1: He could those benefiting from the snitch would become the
Speaker 1: victims of the snitch, and that Barry Seal wouldn't just
Speaker 1: give intel to the DEA about the cartel operations, but
Speaker 1: he would eventually be in a public court of law
Speaker 1: saying yeah, let me name some names people on the
Speaker 1: CIA's you know their payroll. Let me name some names
Speaker 1: of the people in the FBI who got me out
Speaker 1: of all those times I got caught red and with
Speaker 1: the plane.
Speaker 2: For real, Let's let's go over all this stuff first.
Speaker 2: Then I'll just want to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And one other thing possible involvement in the
Speaker 1: JFK assassination because Tosh plum Lake, who we mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: stated numerous times that he flew a secret flight taking
Speaker 1: the CIA to the assassination site because the CIA knew
Speaker 1: that the murder was coming and they actually wanted to
Speaker 1: prevent it. WHOA, that's Plumtree's statement according to let's look
Speaker 1: at the evidence though. Okay, so involvement in state sponsored
Speaker 1: drug deals and maybe JFK assassination. According to one of
Speaker 1: Seal's three wives, Deborah, Barry Seal flew a getaway plane
Speaker 1: out of Dallas after JFK was murdered. WHOA, that's intense,
Speaker 1: and we have more descriptions. Tosh Plumbley pops up again
Speaker 1: and giving us some details about Barry Seal's previous activity
Speaker 1: with illegal government projects.
Speaker 3: Barry Seal did a lot of damn good stuff in
Speaker 3: the late sexties and sixty sixty eight. He was with
Speaker 3: the Air America and South Vietnam and LAOS during search
Speaker 3: and destroy and special ops with Ted Shackley's boys. He'd
Speaker 3: been recruiting, recruited even for a special ops because of
Speaker 3: the Cuban thing.
Speaker 2: Can we just jump in here and talk about his
Speaker 2: involvement right there with Air America.
Speaker 3: Hello, let's do it.
Speaker 2: Hello, everybody, that's the front Air America in South Vietnam.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, remember how he got off scott free
Speaker 3: after that first arrest.
Speaker 2: Well, according to a gentleman named Pete Bruton who wrote
Speaker 2: a book called The Mafia, CIA and George Bush, he says,
Speaker 2: as soon as Seal was freed, he quote began working
Speaker 2: full time for the CIA, traveling back and forth from
Speaker 2: the US to Latin America.
Speaker 1: And then we have a statement from Daniel Hopsacker. Hopsacer
Speaker 1: claims that Seal was now sheep dipped into the DEA
Speaker 1: as an agent for the Special Operations Group. Seal worked
Speaker 1: under a guy named Lucien Cohening, who ran secret missions
Speaker 1: for the Deaight sheep dipped his intelligence community slang which
Speaker 1: means to give someone a pretty water proof, if not ironclad,
Speaker 1: alternate identity. So mcpickles or whatever.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 1: Hopefully it was better than that one. So this is
Speaker 1: weird though. Here's another piece. So those are three pieces
Speaker 1: of evidence that Uncle Sam may have been involved. The
Speaker 1: fourth piece, which I think is one of the most
Speaker 1: difficult to deny, is that despite being apparently a very
Speaker 1: very very valuable asset and witness, he had absolutely no
Speaker 1: protection when he was out in the field. He was
Speaker 1: out in the wild with no guards and no monitoring,
Speaker 1: and the local legal machinery caught wind of this, and
Speaker 1: they were livid. After Seal died, Louisiana Attorney General William
Speaker 1: Goost hand delivered a letter to US Attorney General Edwin
Speaker 1: mess in protest of the government's failure to protect Seal.
Speaker 1: Goose called him a heinous criminal, but he added at
Speaker 1: the same time, for his own purposes, he had made
Speaker 1: himself an extremely valuable witness and infallment in the conscious
Speaker 1: fight against illegal drugs. Bariss Seal's murder suggests the need
Speaker 1: for an in depth but rapid investigation into a number
Speaker 1: of areas. Why was such an important witness not given protection,
Speaker 1: whether he wanted it or not. There's still no answer
Speaker 1: to this question today because if you are if you
Speaker 1: are an informant like that or an important witness, you
Speaker 1: don't get to a shoe protection like you can say no,
Speaker 1: you can't come in my house, for instance, but you
Speaker 1: can't you can't stop somebody from parking that windowless flower
Speaker 1: van down the street, Oh for sure, But no one
Speaker 1: was there sleep at the switch.
Speaker 2: You know, there's even a there's an attorney who who
Speaker 2: gives you kind of it's a great picture of probably
Speaker 2: what occurred within Barry Seal's life numerous times where he
Speaker 2: was caught red handed smuggling drugs. The DEA the CIA
Speaker 2: get involved that when they show up the people who
Speaker 2: actually were there, who said, you know, put your hands up,
Speaker 2: we've found all your drugs. You're under arrest. Those guys
Speaker 2: get told to get the heck out of there while
Speaker 2: the DEA and CIA come through. He's out of here, yeah,
Speaker 2: and they take over the operation. Then who knows what
Speaker 2: actually occurs to Barry Seal, But it doesn't appear that
Speaker 2: he's being charged with anything.
Speaker 1: Nope, So.
Speaker 2: Are we complicit here?
Speaker 3: What gifts?
Speaker 1: Yeah? At this point again to be absolutely and I
Speaker 1: would argue overly fair. The three Cartel assassins are legally
Speaker 1: considered the guilty parties here. One of them has already
Speaker 1: died in prison. But it does seem strange if you
Speaker 1: think about the way organize crime works in this, in this,
Speaker 1: you know, in this theater of underground war, it seems
Speaker 1: very strange that the cartel might risk an assassination when
Speaker 1: there's already so much heat on Seal and so much
Speaker 1: media attention. Why would you risk angering the world's most
Speaker 1: dangerous and largest military governmental apparatus if you could find
Speaker 1: any other possible way to do it, like because that
Speaker 1: that could easily spark a war. So that means that
Speaker 1: the cartel must have had some sort of internal logic
Speaker 1: or calculation, because they are a rational actor, they must
Speaker 1: have said this is somehow worth it.
Speaker 2: Well for a while there he is sending a ton
Speaker 2: of product over into a market for it to be
Speaker 2: sold right for these cartels, So he is certainly valuable
Speaker 2: to them. He has whatever connections he needs to have,
Speaker 2: and he's a skilled enough pilot to where he is
Speaker 2: the guy that they're looking for.
Speaker 1: But they're looking to they already had plenty of skilled
Speaker 1: pilots that they could find.
Speaker 2: They did, but he had some special sauce with connections
Speaker 2: with people or something, right, I mean it has you
Speaker 2: have to imagine that he there is something special to
Speaker 2: this guy.
Speaker 3: It's a combination of the skill and also that hootspot
Speaker 3: you were talking about at the top of the show, Ben,
Speaker 3: I mean it takes a special kind of bravado to
Speaker 3: make these flights so regularly and not be scared of
Speaker 3: the consequences.
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, So, I mean I think that's a valid point,
Speaker 1: and it's something that he supported too. In interviews that
Speaker 1: people had with him before his death, he said, you know,
Speaker 1: putting yourself in life, in danger and situations is what
Speaker 1: I'm all about. But again, it's it's a question why
Speaker 1: would the cartel do such a blatant, obvious hit and
Speaker 1: get caught and then not why did the US government
Speaker 1: take no real action against the cartel Because they did
Speaker 1: get caught, the cartel may have had a green light
Speaker 1: from the US government. That's what a lot of people believe.
Speaker 1: The Median hit story always had this big flaw. Who
Speaker 1: would try to kill one in the CIA's own And
Speaker 1: then this means that we inevitably trace back the bread
Speaker 1: crumbs along or you know, the strings along the web
Speaker 1: and ask ourselves, could this be related to the story
Speaker 1: of the octopus and Danny Cassilero or related investigators like
Speaker 1: Gary Webb, both of those men, by the way, who
Speaker 1: died under what are arguably mysterious circumstances.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really feels like it's connected up to all
Speaker 2: of these things that we've talked about before. This concept
Speaker 2: of the US military and intelligence agencies, at least factions
Speaker 2: of them, working with drug cartels, using this money to
Speaker 2: finance essentially conflict in other countries in South America and
Speaker 2: other places for.
Speaker 3: Coups like his moneymaker.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's crazy. It feels like there's something much,
Speaker 2: much bigger. I mean, we kind of get we we
Speaker 2: get these tiny little windows right through all these men's
Speaker 2: stories of the investigators who seem to have found something
Speaker 2: or have worked in some capacity but end up losing
Speaker 2: their lives. But it really does feel like somebody needs
Speaker 2: to come forward and give a really big picture to
Speaker 2: what this really looks like.
Speaker 1: People have said they were about to and you know,
Speaker 1: we don't know if they all have the same big picture,
Speaker 1: but one thing's for sure, they keep dying before the
Speaker 1: word gets out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're I mean, we are certainly not trying to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: We do not have a big picture.
Speaker 2: No, we do not know any essay.
Speaker 1: In turn, we do not.
Speaker 2: We are just some guys reading stuff on the internet
Speaker 2: and watching some movies. That's all. Except well Paul knows
Speaker 2: a little more. But he's oh no, no, he's saying
Speaker 2: he doesn't.
Speaker 3: He'll never tell that, you'll never tell.
Speaker 1: So it's it's strange because we draw to an unhappy
Speaker 1: conclusion during the bulk of Barry Seal's career. At the time,
Speaker 1: most people and media outlets refused to acknowledge the CIA's
Speaker 1: deep involvement in the Central and South American drug trade.
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that someone was bringing cocaine that
Speaker 1: would later be made into crack into urban areas in
Speaker 1: the eighties. The idea that the government would be at
Speaker 1: all aware of that was treated as anathema in mainstream media,
Speaker 1: and instead these accusations would be dismissed as conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: which is odd when you think about it, because dismissing
Speaker 1: that stuff as a conspiracy theory meant those same authorities,
Speaker 1: the NBCs, the CBS's and so on, were participating in
Speaker 1: the very conspiracy they purported to investigate and dismiss and
Speaker 1: even now mention this At the top, some people will
Speaker 1: argue Seal was never involved with the CIA, and that's
Speaker 1: based on entirely on a statement in court and the
Speaker 1: fact that those statements were considered sworn testimony, which is
Speaker 1: like they put their hand on a book, they said
Speaker 1: they would tell the truth, and so an ergo, everything
Speaker 1: they say after that point must be true.
Speaker 2: What a broken system.
Speaker 1: But we have a statement from former FBI agent Del
Speaker 1: Han explaining this.
Speaker 2: The only federal agency Seal ever worked with was the DEA.
Speaker 2: Seal's sworn testimony was that he had no knowledge of
Speaker 2: ever working for the CIA. In debriefings after his plea bargain,
Speaker 2: he never told me or anyone else he was a
Speaker 2: CIA asset or had worked for any agency other than
Speaker 2: the DEA. Our task force never developed any evidence that
Speaker 2: the CIA was involved with Seal in drug smuggling. There
Speaker 2: is not one iota of credible evidence that Seal ever
Speaker 2: worked for the CIA or assisted them in any operations.
Speaker 2: And the CIA denied any connection with Seal.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, so that solves it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's under oath and I guess we
Speaker 2: believe them.
Speaker 1: And the CIA said they didn't do anything.
Speaker 2: Well, of course they didn't. Why would they do anything.
Speaker 1: So we do have to note that Han does emit
Speaker 1: at least four CIA associated pilots also smuggled various things
Speaker 1: into and out of South America, so he knew it happened.
Speaker 1: He's not saying it didn't happen. He's just saying that
Speaker 1: the CIA and Seal both denied involvement, and they couldn't
Speaker 1: find anything, so he thinks it's not true. But enough
Speaker 1: about Agent Han, what do you think you listening now,
Speaker 1: would a government agency actually cooperate with a drug cartel
Speaker 1: to murder one of their own for believers of certain
Speaker 1: JFK conspiracy theories, the answer is obvious, but we want
Speaker 1: to hear from you. And also, what do you guys think.
Speaker 3: Is this also kind of almost like a false flag
Speaker 3: attack where it's like not an attack, like in the
Speaker 3: sense of a war, but it's like a subterfuge right
Speaker 3: where it's like, of course it was the cartel that
Speaker 3: killed him, all signs point to that, you know, but
Speaker 3: it was actually us making it look like those were
Speaker 3: the cartels that killed him, because that was the easiest
Speaker 3: thing to you know, that was the easiest, most logical explanation.
Speaker 3: I guess right, Well, the.
Speaker 2: Whole thing is a proxy war that he's getting involved with,
Speaker 2: whether he knows it or not, and he's playing both sides.
Speaker 2: It's so tough. It's so tough you're asking what we think,
Speaker 2: ben so so who Let's let's just put it this way.
Speaker 2: Is the DEA going to send a crapload of C
Speaker 2: four in a plane over to assist either side with Cuba.
Speaker 1: DA probably not CIA. Shrug, dot Giff.
Speaker 2: I mean, shrug for sure, DoD Giff. But I guess
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is this this idea that he wasn't
Speaker 2: working for them in some way that would entail him
Speaker 2: working I guess for himself directly with you know, Fidel
Speaker 2: Castro's crew to bring all that C four over to them.
Speaker 3: Was he just like a patsy? Was he just kind
Speaker 3: of like a pawn because he got screwed and then
Speaker 3: kind of had to continue playing both sides for his
Speaker 3: own well being. I guess, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I don't know, like he was just it seemed like
Speaker 3: he was at one point being super clever and then
Speaker 3: something went wrong and then he kind of didn't have
Speaker 3: control over his own destiny anymore. Right Well.
Speaker 1: Also, former FBI agent that we talked about earlier, Haunt
Speaker 1: said the evidence indicated if he had not been shot,
Speaker 1: he already had plans to jump jump probation, leave town,
Speaker 1: live in Costa Rica, and start cocaine operations up again
Speaker 1: the next day. He was leaving the next day.
Speaker 2: Interesting, So it makes you wonder if someone found out
Speaker 2: about that FBI and put a stuff to it. That's
Speaker 2: just me talking.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm going to say personally my opinion,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to color I don't want to
Speaker 1: influence anybody writing into us. We do want to hear
Speaker 1: your takes. But my opinion, based on the stuff we found,
Speaker 1: is that maybe not the CIA proper, but factions within
Speaker 1: the CIA or fact actions within related government agencies absolutely
Speaker 1: greenlit this death and in the way in such a
Speaker 1: way that there would be plausible deniability. You know what
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: I would have to agree with you, Ben, because it
Speaker 2: I mean, we've kind of outlined exactly why. I mean,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense to just shoot a guy sitting
Speaker 2: there where he was, you know, in his car, where
Speaker 2: he was, if you really wanted to get revenge on him.
Speaker 2: How it feels more like shutting him up?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how did the how did the cartels do it? Why?
Speaker 1: I don't know if it feels like I'm not saying
Speaker 1: the CI told him to do it. But at the
Speaker 1: very least, as we say in the South, the CIA
Speaker 1: and the US government did not hurt their neck looking
Speaker 1: for the responsible parties, and they didn't.
Speaker 2: They also didn't protect an asset that they had in him.
Speaker 1: They also didn't retaliate, Yeah, which is weird because we're
Speaker 1: we're pretty pro retaliation culture here in the US. I
Speaker 1: don't know, No, what do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, I agree with you guys completely, Like it's
Speaker 3: there's just no logical way of explaining this whole thing
Speaker 3: without there being some kind of weird double dealing by
Speaker 3: our government.
Speaker 2: The biggest question for me, and you actually have put
Speaker 2: this in the end of the outline here Ben the
Speaker 2: biggest thing that we kind of glossed over, but we
Speaker 2: mentioned it for sure. His possible involvement with the JFK assassination. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: what if that's the reason?
Speaker 3: I don't know, you.
Speaker 1: Know, the plumb Lea story about the CIA attempting to
Speaker 1: prevent the assassination was fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think also at times it's tempting for We've talked
Speaker 1: about this in the past, it's tempting for us to
Speaker 1: think of these agencies as monolithic entities. They most certainly
Speaker 1: are not. Things are very competitive at that level, their rivals.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's more than a bit of e go involved.
Speaker 1: Anyone is corruptible, and people who seem to in public
Speaker 1: speaking and Sewan get along well, maybe working backstage for
Speaker 1: directly directly contradictory forces, you know, well.
Speaker 2: And we just have to mention here that a human
Speaker 2: being can be convinced fairly easily that one course of
Speaker 2: action is not only the best course of action, but
Speaker 2: it is also either just or it is I don't
Speaker 2: know how to put this correctly, that it doing A
Speaker 2: is the right thing to do, and we have to
Speaker 2: do A in order to achieve our goals, right, and
Speaker 2: the greater good argument, the greater good argument can be
Speaker 2: so many different things. For one situation that you could
Speaker 2: have factions who are simultaneously within the CIA attempting to
Speaker 2: this is just hypothetical. Sure, sure, factions within the CIA
Speaker 2: attempting to assassinate the president while the same time a
Speaker 2: faction of the CIA is attempting to stop the other
Speaker 2: part of the CIA from assassinating the president, whether they
Speaker 2: know the other one is doing rather or not.
Speaker 1: There's some true blue idealists or patriots. And then I
Speaker 1: don't know the scary thing about so much congressional testimony,
Speaker 1: especially when you get to private and public entities cooperating,
Speaker 1: which is just the drug cartel's a business. It's products
Speaker 1: may differ from Halliburton, but that doesn't mean it's also
Speaker 1: they're not both international businesses, and the failure to realize
Speaker 1: that leads to a great many problems and discourse today.
Speaker 1: If you see those congressional testimonies, they're chilling because a
Speaker 1: lot of what people describe as they're greater good means
Speaker 1: taking something that will be good for me and making
Speaker 1: it great other people. Be damned. There's a ton of
Speaker 1: narcissism and this kind of stuff, and yet it's disgusting
Speaker 1: and reprehensible to see it justified quote unquote as like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're we're fighting communism, that's why I need a million
Speaker 1: dollars or whatever. And it's just a it's a macrocosmic
Speaker 1: view of what happens in a microcosmic way every single
Speaker 1: day of a person's life. I'm not saying that every
Speaker 1: person listening does that sort of thing. I'm saying that
Speaker 1: you certainly know someone who has screwed you or people
Speaker 1: you care about over because they saw a greater good
Speaker 1: and they thought, like no one thinks that the bad guy,
Speaker 1: it's all for the greater good all the time. The
Speaker 1: person who steals handicapped parking spaces. The psychological engine is
Speaker 1: the same. It's a Mimi me.
Speaker 2: Thing, sure, And I guess the scary thing is that
Speaker 2: you can convince people with the perhaps false motivation there
Speaker 2: of fighting communism. You can convince people that that is
Speaker 2: the true thing you're fighting for, and then you can
Speaker 2: get people to do things for you.
Speaker 1: For our interest for national security. And that's our classic
Speaker 1: episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.
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