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Speaker 1: Welcome to tonight's classic episode. You know what, three flavors

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Speaker 1: go great together. Contrast obviously cocaine, great edition and our

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Speaker 1: good friends at the CIA.

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Speaker 2: Yeaham and Tom Cruise apparently because he starred in the

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Speaker 2: movie about this guy that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's right. What was the movie Cause it's about

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Speaker 3: like a plane smuggling operation.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's called American Maid.

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Speaker 3: That's the one.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And this is the true story of pilot

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Speaker 1: and smuggler named Barry Seal.

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Speaker 2: Let's get to it.

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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 2: name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We were joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control decand most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Every time you do that, every time you do, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm about to get into some kind of

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Speaker 2: freestyle or something. There's a cadence to it when you

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Speaker 2: did did do? Didn't? Didn't? Did do? I get so hyped.

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Speaker 1: Have you been listening to a lot of hip hop recently?

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Speaker 3: A little bit?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've got to send you some

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Speaker 1: stuff as well. I've been listening to some amazing things.

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Speaker 1: I almost caught. I was in Vegas.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Circumstances found me in Vegas this past weekend and I

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Speaker 1: almost ended up at at a weird party with some

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Speaker 1: notable people. But being lame, I went to my hotel

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Speaker 1: and read a book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you did wink?

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Speaker 1: He did?

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Speaker 2: He totally ran that party, I think so. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at Noel over here, you dead dude.

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Speaker 3: I think he's telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: How do you guys have a good weekend?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? A great weekend. Hey, I played a lot of

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Speaker 2: that Detroit Becoming Human. It was the free game on

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Speaker 2: the PlayStation Network in July. Totally worth it, best game

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Speaker 2: I'm played in a long time. Highly recommend it. If

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Speaker 2: you're into story, if you want some complex gameplay, don't

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Speaker 2: do it. But if you just want to learn about

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Speaker 2: how androids will one day, you know, become a free

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Speaker 2: and independent people, go for it.

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Speaker 1: In Detroit. They'll become human in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll well, in my case, I don't spoil it

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Speaker 2: for anybody. Things turn out. Well, that's good.

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Speaker 1: I've got to say. It's so it's so weird that

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Speaker 1: we don't do more video game stuff. I would love

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Speaker 1: to play a video game called stuff. They don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know that weird hand and you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: one day, maybe one day, Well, we'll mess with some

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Speaker 1: video game type folks.

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Speaker 3: I really like old LIKEDEO games that tied in with

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Speaker 3: movies that look nothing like the movie, Like on Nintendo.

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Speaker 3: You know, it would be like back to the future

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Speaker 3: of the game, but you'd just be like this little

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Speaker 3: block game Hardymonfly. Yeah, you know, like remember ET the game.

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Speaker 1: That was where I was just gonna mention that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: ET the game one of the universally agreed worst video

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Speaker 1: games ever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think there's an.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, see, but in our video game, you'd get

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Speaker 2: to choose to be one of us or Paul, and

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Speaker 2: you would go through and you'd have to solve conspiracies

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Speaker 2: with the help of the others. It would be a

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Speaker 2: multiplayer game. You could have four people at once playing, right,

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Speaker 2: can you play solo? You can totally play so That's

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Speaker 2: how I would play it, Okay, But what I'm saying is,

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Speaker 2: if you were into playing together, you guys could investigate,

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Speaker 2: go down different leads, you report back. Ben's found out

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Speaker 2: everything about the Black Hand. I've been busy over here

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Speaker 2: with an extraterrestrial angle for some reason. They're connected. Then

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Speaker 2: we figure out the next place to go. I'm telling

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Speaker 2: you this video game rules. Get at me and Ben

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Speaker 2: and Nol and Paul whoever you are, you video game

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Speaker 2: developers out.

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Speaker 1: There, Yeah, tell us your idea if you had if

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Speaker 1: you had a video game about your own personal experience,

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Speaker 1: what would it be. You don't have to write it

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Speaker 1: all out. You can call us and give us your

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Speaker 1: three minute pitch.

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Speaker 2: We are one eight three three std WYTK.

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Speaker 1: If you're a longtime listener, you can probably tell that

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Speaker 1: we're all we're all film buffs here or voracious sponges

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Speaker 1: of story and information. We enjoy that in terms of

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Speaker 1: video games, in terms of music, art and you know,

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Speaker 1: film and books and so on. And we were talking

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Speaker 1: a little bit off air about Tom Cruise, who will

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Speaker 1: be familiar to all our fans of Tom Cruise Control

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Speaker 1: mentioned in earlier episode in twenty seventeen, the actor Tom

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Speaker 1: Cruise starred in a film called American Maid. American Maid

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Speaker 1: follows the highly fictionalized life and time of a real

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Speaker 1: life pilot named Barry Seal.

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Speaker 2: A pilot amongst other things.

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Speaker 1: A pilot amongst other things. And we asked, oh, I

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Speaker 1: forget that, Paul Michigan control, how you doing today? All right?

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Speaker 1: We got a good thumbs up, and Paul, you also

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Speaker 1: gave a thumbs up to American Made.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: That's official? Double thumbs Wow.

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Speaker 3: Nobody wants to know how I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: Wait a second, I asked how you guys were doing.

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Speaker 1: That was my fault, Yeah, said, how are you guys

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Speaker 1: doing that?

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Speaker 2: I derailed it and I sent it to Ben. That

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Speaker 2: was my fault.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, it's cool.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what's cool? What's up in your life? Nol?

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Speaker 2: Did you go on that date we talked about?

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Speaker 3: I take it on a day. It's true. I saw

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Speaker 3: a fantastic movie that you guy should all see, called

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Speaker 3: The Last Black Man in San Francisco. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like a weird It kind of fits

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Speaker 3: in with our show because it's got this weird kind

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Speaker 3: of alternative history version of San Francisco, where like everyone

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Speaker 3: that grew up there has been forced out, which is

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Speaker 3: not made up at all. That's absolutely what's happening. But

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Speaker 3: there's this backdrop of this kind of like toxic event

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Speaker 3: that they never really name, but like the fish are

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Speaker 3: poison and like the water is all poison, and the

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Speaker 3: whole thing has this like kind of crazy Terry Gilliam

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Speaker 3: or like Michelle Gondry kind of vibe. I really recommend

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Speaker 3: it highly, very dreamlike, very powerful, very very special movie.

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Speaker 3: I liked it a lot.

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Speaker 1: Done were the what were the ratings or reviews?

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Speaker 3: They were good, They're very good. But I just, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think it's something it's hard to describe, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not even gonna bother trying too hard, but something that

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Speaker 3: you guys should all see.

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Speaker 2: I think, Well, the movie we're talking about today, American made,

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Speaker 2: has some pretty dang good ratings, at least according to

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Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes.

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Speaker 1: Right, what are the premier rating sites? Can you lay

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Speaker 1: those numbers on us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's give it to your critics gave it eighty

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Speaker 2: six percent. The audience gave it seventy eight. Now generally

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Speaker 2: gotta say those two numbers are flopped where the critics

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Speaker 2: will give it a slightly lower rating, and then audience

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Speaker 2: members will enjoy a movie a little bit better than

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Speaker 2: the critics perhaps gave it a give it credit for. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but in this movie, in this case,

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Speaker 2: the critics really liked it.

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Speaker 1: And here's the question, would those ratings change if the

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Speaker 1: film were to follow the true story of Barry Seal,

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Speaker 1: the story that even today runs rife with the stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. So here are the facts.

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Speaker 1: We've been throwing this name around a lot. Berry Seal.

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Speaker 1: Who is Barry Seal.

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Speaker 3: Barry Seal was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana on July sixteenth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty nine, and his father was a candy wholesaler

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Speaker 3: and a clansman. Yeah, he was a member of the

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Speaker 3: Ku Klux Klan, which you know that sounds like on

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Speaker 3: the conspiratorial side today, but at the time it was

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Speaker 3: pretty commonplace for white dudes in Baton Rouge. Sad but true.

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Speaker 3: So Barry grew up obsessed with airplanes and he took

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Speaker 3: his first solo flight at fifteen, one year before he

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Speaker 3: actually got his legit pilot's license, and then not too

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Speaker 3: long after that, he worked for one of those companies

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Speaker 3: that have like the banners that the toad behind the

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Speaker 3: planes for advertising, which is a thing that I've always

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Speaker 3: been fascinated by, like who is that person that does that?

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Speaker 1: It was very seal, and it's a great idea for

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Speaker 1: prank two. It's on my secret list of dream pranks,

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Speaker 1: is to take one of those advertising banners. This is

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Speaker 1: the most sith lord version. Take an advertising banner. Hire

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Speaker 1: someone to fly out a banner that says will you

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Speaker 1: marry me? And just hear the relationships crumble around the

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Speaker 1: city for anyone who accidentally looks up and then their

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Speaker 1: their significant other goes, oh my god, yes I will.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I've always thought that was a pretty like blunt instrument

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Speaker 3: way of doing that right, Like, you know, in general.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty inconsiderate, super.

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Speaker 3: Ruin everybody's beach day.

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Speaker 2: So to jump back to very seal really fast, you guys, Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's fascinating. Here is one of the first things we've

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Speaker 2: learned about him is that prior to even getting a

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Speaker 2: pilot's license, he's bending the rules a little bit and

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Speaker 2: taking a solo flight, something that is both irresponsible really

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Speaker 2: dangerous to himself, but also adventurous, right sure, Yeah, he's

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Speaker 2: adrenaline junkie. Adrenaline junkie living on the edge of the rules.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and also has myopic obsessions. To be fair, it's

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Speaker 1: safe to say that many many people in this country

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Speaker 1: in the US do something similar when they're learning to

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Speaker 1: drive cars. Right, your parents are an older person or

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Speaker 1: someone with a license will take you out to a

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Speaker 1: parking lot, and generally law enforcement will look the other

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Speaker 1: way as this fourteen year old is just stripping a clutch,

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Speaker 1: you know. But it's a little different, I would argue

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Speaker 1: with planes, right, and his obsession with flight in general

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Speaker 1: would lead him to the first steps on his long, controversial, conspiratorial,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately fatal career. He joined the Civil Air Patrol

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Speaker 1: in fifty five and he stayed based in Baton Rouge,

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Speaker 1: and he took part in a Civil Air Patrol joint

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Speaker 1: training mission with the New Orleans unit that was run

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Speaker 1: by a guy named David Ferry. David Ferry later will

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Speaker 1: be a peripheral figure in the JFK assassination.

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Speaker 2: And that's not all of the connection between this character,

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Speaker 2: Barry Seal and the JFK assassination.

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Speaker 1: Whatever do you mean?

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's somebody else that allegedly he met. At

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Speaker 2: least according to another Civil Air Patrol member person named

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Speaker 2: John Odum, they say that Seal actually encountered mister Lee

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Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald while he was training.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, that's true. But wait, wait there's more. As

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Speaker 1: more as Billy Mays was wont to say. Yes, Tosh Plumbley,

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Speaker 1: another figure later related to the JFK assassination.

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Speaker 3: That is a great name, by the way, hash Plumbley.

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Speaker 3: I love that sounds like a character and clue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does. He claims that Barry Seal began

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Speaker 1: working for the CIA in the mid nineteen fifties. We

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Speaker 1: have a quote from Toash on this.

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Speaker 3: I think Tosh Plumbley would sound like Berry. Seal was

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Speaker 3: involved with military intelligence in the early days. Military intelligence

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Speaker 3: was the real game, with the CIA just acting as

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Speaker 3: logistical people. Berry was a periveral player back then. But

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Speaker 3: he was a CIA contract pilot all the way back

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Speaker 3: to nineteen fifty six or fifty seven.

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Speaker 2: Now remember this is Matton Rouge.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't matter. This is how Plumbley sounds. My man. He's

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Speaker 3: an aristocrat of the highest order.

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Speaker 1: And Seal would later in sworn testimony, deny any affiliation

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Speaker 1: with the CIA whatsoever in any shape, form or fashion.

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Speaker 1: That'll come up later. Let's keep going. In nineteen fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: he began ferrying weapons to Fidel Castro fighting against the

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Speaker 1: Batista regime in Cuba. At the same time, a section

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Speaker 1: of the CIA was supporting the overthrow of the Batistas.

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Speaker 1: So if he said he had no involvement, I guess

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Speaker 1: he was. Who was just another contractor. And maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: Castro had like a four thirty pm appointment with a

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Speaker 1: CIA and a five p fifteen appointment with Barry Seal.

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Speaker 1: Who knows, or.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he wasn't actually meeting. Here's the tough thing. It

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Speaker 2: seems as though if you are going to be flying

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Speaker 2: weapons in to a group, like at least any member

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Speaker 2: of Fidel Castro's resistance force you are going to, it's

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Speaker 2: going to be a known mission, right, There's gonna be

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Speaker 2: a lot of handling that occurs with that. It's not

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Speaker 2: just oh, hey, I'm gonna I'll be there around three.

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Speaker 2: See see in a little bit, Fidel guys, Fidel's dudes.

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Speaker 2: I guess just what I'm saying is it was certainly

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Speaker 2: under the radar when it was occurring right with authorities,

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Speaker 2: or at least he would have to be unless it

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Speaker 2: was explicitly known that this was occurring as a mission

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Speaker 2: in part of the CIA.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's another part, because astute listeners you just

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Speaker 1: heard us say the CIA was at the time supporting

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Speaker 1: the overthrow of Bautista. However, the policy changed soon after

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Speaker 1: Castro gained power and Barry Seal apparently started taking part

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Speaker 1: in air attacks on the emergent new government. Either way,

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Speaker 1: they liked what he's doing. Nineteen fifty nine, he became

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Speaker 1: a CIA pilot in Guatemala.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and we were I'm just trying to point

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Speaker 2: out some things here that have to do with themes

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Speaker 2: with Barry's life. Right, This idea of possibly playing both

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Speaker 2: sides there, of both supplying the new regime with weapons

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Speaker 2: but then also participating in tax once they've gained power, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Kind of a fair weather friend at the very least exactly.

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Speaker 2: So let's go let's go to nineteen fifty nine. Now

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Speaker 2: he's in Guatemala and he's officially a CIA pilot.

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Speaker 1: He has officially a CIA pilot in Guatemala. It's also

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Speaker 1: believed He was involved in training Cuban exiles on No

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Speaker 1: Name Key Another Excellent Name in Florida and on the

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Speaker 1: north shore of Lake Ponch Train in Louisiana. He also

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Speaker 1: ran a couple of companies based in his hometown, Baton Rouge,

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Speaker 1: Seal Sky Service and Aerial Advertising Associates. That's the banner

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Speaker 1: thing we talked about earlier. He had an office in

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Speaker 1: the International Trade Center run by Clay Shaw.

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Speaker 2: Can we just talk about Aerial Advertising Associates? Sure, Triple A.

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Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, you're gonna get in trouble

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Speaker 2: just with those a's, right, you can't. You can't just

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Speaker 2: use all three a's. Come on, there's a big company

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Speaker 2: out there. They're gonna take you down. But the other

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Speaker 2: thing is it sounds like some kind of CIA front,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it. When we've over the course of this show,

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Speaker 2: every CIA FBI front has the most banal name to

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Speaker 2: it of the most This is exactly what this thing is.

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Speaker 2: It feels very much like that to me, not saying

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Speaker 2: it was a CIA front, just saying.

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Speaker 1: Sure, it's like Legitimate Business Partners Associated LLC.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, American No, not American Airlines. What was it called?

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Speaker 2: Was the big one are America?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how could you hate that? Do you hate America?

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty two December, he joins the twenty

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Speaker 1: first Special Forces Group. He attends the Fort Benning Jump

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Speaker 1: School in sixty three. The next year, he's assigned to

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Speaker 1: Company D, Special Operations Detachment of the twentieth Special Forces

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Speaker 1: Group Airborne. In sixty four, he joins the two hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty fifth Engineer Battalion based in Saint Louis. He

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Speaker 1: leaves there in sixty six. He serves in the Louisiana

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Speaker 1: RB National Guard the Army Reserve. He joins TWA trans

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Speaker 1: World Airlines in nineteen sixty eight as a flight engineer

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Speaker 1: and later becomes one of the youngest command pilots in

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Speaker 1: the entire fleet. So he loves flying. He's good at it.

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Speaker 1: You just can't entirely trust that he will have your

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Speaker 1: back with the chips are down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he has had a lot of involvement with

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Speaker 2: various military groups. It's he's an experienced guy by the time.

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Speaker 2: He's not that old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly?

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Speaker 2: Was he born thirty nine?

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Speaker 3: Yep?

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Speaker 2: Wow, so not even thirty.

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Speaker 1: And his shady and at times contradictory career finally caught

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Speaker 1: up with Barry Seal. On July one, nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: he was arrested in New Orleans. He was accused of

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Speaker 1: sending C four explosives to anti Castro Cubans based in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: A DC four on the plane news Line was seized

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Speaker 1: at the Shreveport Regional Airport, loaded with around seven tons

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Speaker 1: of plastic explosives, seven thousand feet of explosive primer cord,

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Speaker 1: and two thousand, six hundred electric blasting caps. So this

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Speaker 1: was going to be one hell of a party.

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Speaker 3: And then James Miller, Richmond Harper, and Marlon Hagler and

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Speaker 3: also somebody Murray Kessler were arrested along with Cel and

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Speaker 3: Kessler's partner, man by the name of Manny Gambino, was

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Speaker 3: kidnapped around the same time the others were arrested. Very

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Speaker 3: fishy in Gambino's course, was later found in a New

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Speaker 3: Jersey garbage jump some mob stuff right here, right, This

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Speaker 3: is that Gambino clearly exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, then the plot just continues to thicken after

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Speaker 2: that because rue at this point, yes, very nice little

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Speaker 2: because that plane, the DC four, was actually owned by

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Speaker 2: this guy named James Boy who was in fact an associate,

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Speaker 2: a known associate of the CIA.

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Speaker 1: James Boy, a terrible terrible Jim Jimmy Boy, Jim plumbley

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Speaker 1: and Boy and James Boy.

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Speaker 3: Great the sounds like made up names. I love it.

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Speaker 2: Well here's again, there there are these weird.

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Speaker 1: This is a web. This is a string in the web.

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Speaker 2: It's literally a Gary Webb. And uh so this guy,

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Speaker 2: James Boy, his aircraft laid was used by Oliver North

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Speaker 2: essentially to send mercenaries hired by him to fly in

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Speaker 2: and out of Honduras. Which again we've got three points

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Speaker 2: of connection here already that are just mind.

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Speaker 1: Blowing right right, Maybe not enough connections to jump to

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Speaker 1: a conclusion, no, but three points is what you need

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Speaker 1: to climb up a conspiracy mountain. Right there you go.

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Speaker 1: So the man who organized the entrapment of Seal, the

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Speaker 1: reason he got caught with all these explosives and that

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Speaker 1: his friends got caught as well, was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Csario dil Stado, an official with US Customs. It took

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Speaker 1: the authorities over two years to bring Seal and co.

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Speaker 1: To trial, and then things got really fishy. So the

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Speaker 1: trial finally gets underway June nineteen seventy four. But government

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Speaker 1: prosecutors do something that automatically, without questions, sinks the case.

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Speaker 1: They introduce into evidence an automatic weapon that has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the charges against the defendants. None of

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Speaker 1: them have ever touched. The chain of custody is completely

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Speaker 1: unrelated to them, and so a mistrial is declared. Seal

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Speaker 1: and his buddies are released, no probation, no monitoring, no sentencing.

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Speaker 1: This was not to be his first arrest.

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Speaker 2: And this is about a plane filled to the brim

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Speaker 2: with explosives. Okay, not quite that large, but enough explosives,

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Speaker 2: like we said, to do serious damage somewhere, and they

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Speaker 2: just get let off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is also going to become a pattern in

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Speaker 1: the life of Seal. This was not to be, of course,

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Speaker 1: his final arrest. But what we can see is that

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Speaker 1: evidence indicates that at every step along the way, someone,

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Speaker 1: some suit would step in and take over the investigation.

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Speaker 1: After Barry's first arrest, his career takes off, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's more appropriate to say it veers off in a darker,

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Speaker 1: more sinister direction, and we'll we'll ex i am in

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that, but first let's talk about

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Speaker 1: his death. This is the hinge of today's episode, and we'll.

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Speaker 2: Talk about it right after a quick word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: On February nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Barry Seal was shot

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Speaker 1: to death by a machine gun in front of a

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Speaker 1: Salvation Army facility located on Airline Highway in his hometown

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Speaker 1: of Baton Rouge. And I believe we can play a

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Speaker 1: little clip of the reporting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this will be a really short clip from NBC.

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Speaker 4: He used to smuggle drugs and he got caught and

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Speaker 4: he became one of the government's most valuable informants in

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Speaker 4: the war against cocaine. But last night in Louisiana, Barry

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Speaker 4: Seal's enemies caught up with him and killed him tonight.

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Speaker 1: So Barry's murder ends a DEA investigation. The investigator drug

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Speaker 1: Enforcement Agency, the investigation was never resolved, has not been

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Speaker 1: to this day, and according to some sources, the murder

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Speaker 1: was never truly solved either.

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Speaker 2: And just to continue with this web motif that we're

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Speaker 2: already starting to create here and all of the themes,

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Speaker 2: we realized that Barry's death connected directly to a two

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Speaker 2: part series we made in twenty sixteen called Banks, Drugs

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Speaker 2: and Money that was based on a film called The Infiltrader.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and Barry Seal appears in The Infiltrator, which

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Speaker 1: is inspired by true events. I believe he has a

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Speaker 1: different sort of death in this story though, Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, because you know in the series we're talking

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Speaker 2: to Robert Maser, right, and he was this DA agent

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Speaker 2: who went undercover and he ended up busting up part

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Speaker 2: at least of Pablo Escobar's drug trafficking cartel and then

400
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Speaker 2: sinking an international bank that was connected to that cartel.

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Speaker 2: And in this movie, there's a scene where Robert Maser's

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Speaker 2: character is being driven around by Barry Seal, and Barry

403
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Speaker 2: Seal's character is complaining, essentially complaining about Ronald Reagan and

404
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 2: Nancy Reagan and anti drug movement, talking about his high

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Speaker 2: level connections with government officials essentially, and how he's been

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Speaker 2: doing this stuff trafficking drugs for the government essentially.

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Speaker 3: I didn't clock at all of that was him in

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Speaker 3: the movie.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, he's introduced and it's kind of shown that way.

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Speaker 2: But then instead of the way we've described it before,

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Speaker 2: where Barry being shot to death in front of the

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Speaker 2: Salvation Army facility, just in his car or as he's

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Speaker 2: getting out of his car he's killed within a drive

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Speaker 2: by a motorcycle assassin essentially comes by and shoots him

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Speaker 2: while he's driving the car. And we noticed that this

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Speaker 2: was the only depiction of Barry Seal's death where he

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Speaker 2: wasn't just in his car or getting out of his vehicle.

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Speaker 2: He was actually driving while it was occurring. So to

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Speaker 2: our mind, and I guess to your mind, you should

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Speaker 2: at least know that that's probably not what happened to him.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, we I think it's just

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Speaker 2: interesting to note these connections we've been making here. Before

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Speaker 2: we started this episode, Noel pointed out that he felt

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Speaker 2: like he had already talked about Barry Seal, and then

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Speaker 2: we discussed how in covering Gary Webb, who was the

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Speaker 2: other guy, Bob Robert Maser and I think there was

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Speaker 2: one other main story that we've spoken about before where

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Speaker 2: it was CIA drug trafficking. Many just how common this

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Speaker 2: feels to us.

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Speaker 1: So if that's not really what happened, if it wasn't

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Speaker 1: really a motorcycle drive by, then what did actually occur?

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Speaker 1: Who killed Barry Seal and why? Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about that first arrest, and we mentioned

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Speaker 1: that his career changed after his first arrest in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy four, when Barry got off scott Free, he went

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Speaker 1: face first into drug smuggling, both for drug cartels and

437
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: apparently eventually for factions of Uncle Sam the US government.

438
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: His talent, his bravado, his hutzba had attracted the attention

439
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: of the Median cartel and their leader, Bablo Escobar, who

440
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: many of us may recognize from Netflix. It was on

441
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: Escobar's suggestion that Barry Seal moved his airstrip from Louisiana

442
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: to kind of a podunk place in West Arkansas, and

443
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: by the early nineteen eighties he had orchestrated the importation

444
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds of cocaine and marijuana into the

445
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: US via this middle of nowhere strip in Arkansas. And

446
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: he started out, as far as we can tell, kind

447
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: of smuggling marijuana on his own, and then he realized

448
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: that pound for pound cocaine is where you get the

449
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: most gas.

450
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 3: Funding is he depicted in that Netflix show Narcos.

451
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: Alert Barry Seal is in Narcos.

452
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: He is okay I once in the first season. It's

453
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: been a while.

454
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, his death is all also portrayed in Narcos.

455
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 3: I thought that rang a ball. It's been a lot

456
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 3: times I've seen that, but that makes sense.

457
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: His death has been actually depicted multiple times, which is

458
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: surprising because he's not a huge public figure today and

459
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 1: arguably he should be. He was busted again in Florida

460
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, who was charged with conspiracy to

461
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: distribute get this, four hundred and sixty two pounds of coke.

462
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: That's an estimated street value in nineteen eighty three of

463
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty eight million. So just for just

464
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: for giggles, let's look at how much one hundred and

465
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: sixty eight million dollars in nineteen eighty three is worth

466
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. We're gonna pull up the number with

467
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: some help from Mission ConTroll. Do we get a drum roll? Please?

468
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: Just a sound of someone snorting something on a table?

469
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: Even better?

470
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: Perfect.

471
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: I don't know how you found the happy, happy medium

472
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: between those, Paul, But by god, that's why, that's why

473
00:25:58,560 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: you're a super producer.

474
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 2: Is that's so hard, right? I know?

475
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: Wen, we'd have to take ol to Applebeast to apologize.

476
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: Here's the answer. One hundred and sixty eight million dollars

477
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three has the purchasing power of over

478
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: four hundred and thirty two million dollars in twenty nineteen,

479
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: so it's more than doubled over that time. He was

480
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: on the way to becoming a what we would consider

481
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: it a billionaire today.

482
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: Wow, you want here's something else in Miamic You chuckle?

483
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: What's that?

484
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: Barry seals alias or one of them was Ellis mcpickle, No.

485
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: Not Ellis Ellis mcpickll. He seemed like such a good

486
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: stand up guy. It's weird because you wonder why he

487
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: would need an alias, right, Smugglers often do. But he

488
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: turned and started working for the FEDS as an informant.

489
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he got caught with one hundred and sixty

490
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: eight million dollars worth of cocaine. So he was either

491
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: just gonna go away forever or he was gonna turn

492
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: and start working for the FEDS.

493
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: Got flipped, yeah hard, You got flips hard. So the

494
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: DEA cracked this deal with him. They said, all right, Barry,

495
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: keep carrying on your business as usual, keep flying your

496
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: smuggling roots. We're gonna give your plane the exhibit treatment.

497
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. We're going to put high

498
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: tech surveillance equipment in there, and we're gonna pimp your

499
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: ride to include the most expensive cryptic radio communications we

500
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: had ever seen at the time, according to DEA agent

501
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: Ernest Jacobson, and and it paid off.

502
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 3: It delivered.

503
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: On his first trip, Oh yeah, he got some photographs

504
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: of Cuban officials, Nicaraguan's soldiers and Sandinista government officers hauling

505
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: duffel bags of cocaine. Hauling duffel bags. These are officials.

506
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: They're just picking them up and loading on the plane.

507
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: You can see a little bit of footage in this

508
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: from that NBC clip we played earlier. You can find

509
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: it on the YouTube video. It's insane. He even brought

510
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: back a picture of this guy, this kind of ghost

511
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: or this myth that exists out there, Pablo Escobar. But

512
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: he was he was in one of those striped polo

513
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: shirts that I can't remember if it was portrayed this

514
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: way in the infiltrator, but you've seen media or depictions

515
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: of Pablo Escobar in this shirt.

516
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: Hot down there.

517
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: And seals Intel then transformed him into literally the most

518
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: significant witness in the US's war on drugs almost overnight.

519
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: We literally that's what occurred. This this thing we've kind

520
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: of told you about, where he got arrested with all

521
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: this stuff, got flipped, got his plane, pimps, went out

522
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 2: there and started doing this stuff. It was not a

523
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: long term situation.

524
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: It was a slow burn, You're right, Matt. In fact,

525
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Inquirer later called Seal quote the most important

526
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: witness in the history of the US Drug Enforcement edmundration. Wow,

527
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: not in terms of this project, but in terms of

528
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: the history of the administration.

529
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: Can we just talk about the stakes at which he's

530
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: playing his life right now? Sure, after you know, having

531
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: a military career through all that stuff, then flipping to

532
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: become a drug smuggler, then flipping back to being an agent.

533
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 3: Out of control. Can you imagine, like how this guy

534
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: slept at night?

535
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: No, I really.

536
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: Care how much he slept.

537
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you think.

538
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: He was getting high on his own supply?

539
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: Yes?

540
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: Well? But still though, wouldn't that bring about wouldn't that

541
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: enhance the paranoia that you would probably feel in that

542
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: situation if you're anywhere near a normally function Sure, and

543
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: the lack of.

544
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: Sleep, paired with the effects of the narcotics themselves. I'm

545
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: sure he was a mess.

546
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean I would imagine just the stress.

547
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: Not long into his career as an informant, trouble begins.

548
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: There's a front page story in the Washington Times by

549
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: journalist Edmund Jacobi which seems to outsee you as a

550
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: government agent. This is also one of the first public

551
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: statements that later led to the Iran Contra scandal. And

552
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: the DEA said, well, a known snitch is a no

553
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: good snitch to us. Yeah, yep. So they cut him loose,

554
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: and not long after, the FBI arrest him in Louisiana

555
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: and the Baton Rouge US Attorney's office says we're gonna

556
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: We're gonna put this guy away for being a kingpin.

557
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: He's like, what brutal, I'm just flying planes for y'all.

558
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: And they somehow in a country that will put people

559
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: under the prison for like small time possession, you know,

560
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: like barely intend to distribute. He was slapped for five

561
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: years probation and then they had to six months at

562
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: a local halfway house. This is kind of like the

563
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: drug dealer version of a Jeffrey Epstein quote unquote deal

564
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: and that's why he ended up at that Salvation Army

565
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: on Airline Highway. That was part of his probation, and

566
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: that's where he was murdered in February of nineteen eighty six.

567
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: And he was murdered, But who actually murdered him? We

568
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: will give you our best guess and warning, this is

569
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: a little bit off the edges of the map, so

570
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 1: there's some speculation involved, but you'll learn more afterword from

571
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: our sponsor. Okay, two things, let's divide it two ways,

572
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: dividing conquer. First, there is the official story. You can't

573
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: see it here, folks, but I'm sort of waving my

574
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: right hand in the air. And then there are the

575
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. I'm waving my left hand in the air.

576
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: Who would have killed Barry Seal? And why? The official

577
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: story is pretty clear? Legally speaking, this is solved.

578
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was obviously having something to do

579
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: with his involvement with these drug cartels and essentially assisting

580
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: in bringing them down and you know, going to give

581
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: testimony against them, right.

582
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: But I mean, even if he wasn't going to testify

583
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: drug cartels, don't take kindly to folks that, you know,

584
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: leave the life, right not to mention that are like

585
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: cooperating with any kind of law enforcement.

586
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The cartels, even back then were infamous for

587
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: their brutality, their inhumanity, their cruelty, and being an informant,

588
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: regardless of which cartel it is. This was medane related,

589
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: but being an informant is a tremendous, profound sin in

590
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: the culture of cartels. This means that if you are

591
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: caught snitching, you the thought of a quick, clean death

592
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: is an unreasonably happy outcome. Pigs will fly before. The

593
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: cleanest way you can die is by your own hand.

594
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: That's it, you know, well, it's almost it would be.

595
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: If you could control how this person and dies, it

596
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: would not be a fast death. Right, that's the.

597
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: Idea, right, because the cartel at plans, right, they didn't

598
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: just want him dead for informing or cost him millions

599
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: of lost product. And let's be honest, that's compounded on

600
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: millions and bribes because now the government officials they're bribing

601
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: have more leverage to say, oh well, things are getting

602
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: a little hot right now. You know, wouldn't want the

603
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: US president finding out about this, And they're like, come on, Oliver,

604
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: be cool, Oliver North.

605
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly well, and then let's talk about the situation

606
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: he's alone in his car at the Salvation Army. Someone

607
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: approaches him and shoots bullets into him while he's sitting

608
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: there in his car. If this were situation where it

609
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: was preferable to kidnap him, it seems like that would

610
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: have been an easy situation to accommodate that.

611
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: Right because the way cartels do it, the way cartels

612
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: handle this stuff internally, as they'll put out a bounty,

613
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 1: and the bounty will have a pricing schedule will based

614
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: on the person being delivered alive which is preferable, the

615
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: person being delivered sort of alive but maimed, which is

616
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: a little bit less, or the person being dead, which

617
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: is proof of death. You know, you have a body

618
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: part or a port or something. Cartel wanted him kidnapped

619
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: so they could slowly torture him, not just to get

620
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: their giggles and their jollys, but also as an example

621
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: for other potential turncoats who were also pilots or government affiliates, and.

622
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 3: Maybe even get some information about who he talked to

623
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 3: and what he told them, so they could get a

624
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 3: sense of how to get ahead of it, right.

625
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that's assuming that they're not already in

626
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: cahoots with Uncle Sam. Right. Yeah, So, as you said, Matt,

627
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: here's the evidence. So Columbian assassins were sent by the

628
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: Medine cartel. They were apprehended while trying to leave Louisiana

629
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: shortly after Seal's murder. That's true. The authorities then reasonably

630
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: concluded Seal's murderers were hired by the Achoa brothers. These

631
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: three assass since we're indicted on March twenty seventh, nineteen

632
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 1: eighty six. In May of nineteen eighty seven, these three

633
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: men are convicted of first degree murder in Seal's death.

634
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: They are sentenced to life in prison without parole. Their

635
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: names are Louis Carlos Quinto Cruz, Miguel Velez, and Bernando

636
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: Antonio Vasquez. And on March sixteenth, nineteen eighty six, one

637
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: month after Seal is assassinated, then President Ronald Reagan tries

638
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: to get more congressional support for the contrast, and he

639
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: is showing off some photographs Seal has taken during his

640
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: time as an informant. Reagan suggests that a top ranking

641
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: Sandinista official is involved in drug smuggling, which is hilarious,

642
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: and I'm really sad that Reagan's comedy career didn't take off.

643
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: Then he was a man ahead of his time.

644
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: He did some physical comedy in the movies back in the.

645
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: Day, right, Yeah, I mean he did some pretty comedic

646
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: things in his time as president too.

647
00:35:59,120 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 3: Also true.

648
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 2: So okay, should we talk about how we feel about

649
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: this one yet or should we just go?

650
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: I mean, legally speaking, that's true.

651
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: They were convicted, Well, they were convicted showing that they

652
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: actually pulled the trigger and knowing that they were trying

653
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: to leave the country after this guy died. It feels

654
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: like two very different things. But I guess if they

655
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: were convicted, I don't know the full details. We don't

656
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: have the full details that'll lay out here for you

657
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 2: about you know, the weapons that were used and the

658
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: bullets that were found, and trajectory and all of the

659
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: forensics on that scene. But you know, okay, that feels plausible.

660
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Now we'll enter the realm of what is still

661
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: oddly sorry, let me be serious when I say this.

662
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: Now we're entering the realm of what is still oddly

663
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: enough considered conspiracy theory. What if Uncle Sam was somehow involved.

664
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: What if the FEDS were somehow involved, what would their

665
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: motivation be. The motivation for the cartel is that this

666
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: guy was new informant and bad for business and could

667
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: make business even worse if, as you said, no, they

668
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: got information from.

669
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 2: Him and he could testify it, and he could testify.

670
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Uncle Sam's motivation for those who believe that the

671
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: US was involved in this assassination was that he could.

672
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: He could those benefiting from the snitch would become the

673
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: victims of the snitch, and that Barry Seal wouldn't just

674
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: give intel to the DEA about the cartel operations, but

675
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: he would eventually be in a public court of law

676
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: saying yeah, let me name some names people on the

677
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: CIA's you know their payroll. Let me name some names

678
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 1: of the people in the FBI who got me out

679
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: of all those times I got caught red and with

680
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: the plane.

681
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: For real, Let's let's go over all this stuff first.

682
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: Then I'll just want to talk about it.

683
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And one other thing possible involvement in the

684
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: JFK assassination because Tosh plum Lake, who we mentioned earlier,

685
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: stated numerous times that he flew a secret flight taking

686
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: the CIA to the assassination site because the CIA knew

687
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: that the murder was coming and they actually wanted to

688
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: prevent it. WHOA, that's Plumtree's statement according to let's look

689
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: at the evidence though. Okay, so involvement in state sponsored

690
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: drug deals and maybe JFK assassination. According to one of

691
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: Seal's three wives, Deborah, Barry Seal flew a getaway plane

692
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: out of Dallas after JFK was murdered. WHOA, that's intense,

693
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: and we have more descriptions. Tosh Plumbley pops up again

694
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: and giving us some details about Barry Seal's previous activity

695
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: with illegal government projects.

696
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: Barry Seal did a lot of damn good stuff in

697
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: the late sexties and sixty sixty eight. He was with

698
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: the Air America and South Vietnam and LAOS during search

699
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 3: and destroy and special ops with Ted Shackley's boys. He'd

700
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 3: been recruiting, recruited even for a special ops because of

701
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 3: the Cuban thing.

702
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: Can we just jump in here and talk about his

703
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: involvement right there with Air America.

704
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 3: Hello, let's do it.

705
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: Hello, everybody, that's the front Air America in South Vietnam.

706
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, remember how he got off scott free

707
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 3: after that first arrest.

708
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: Well, according to a gentleman named Pete Bruton who wrote

709
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,959
Speaker 2: a book called The Mafia, CIA and George Bush, he says,

710
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 2: as soon as Seal was freed, he quote began working

711
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: full time for the CIA, traveling back and forth from

712
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: the US to Latin America.

713
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: And then we have a statement from Daniel Hopsacker. Hopsacer

714
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: claims that Seal was now sheep dipped into the DEA

715
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: as an agent for the Special Operations Group. Seal worked

716
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: under a guy named Lucien Cohening, who ran secret missions

717
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: for the Deaight sheep dipped his intelligence community slang which

718
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: means to give someone a pretty water proof, if not ironclad,

719
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: alternate identity. So mcpickles or whatever.

720
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: There you go.

721
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: Hopefully it was better than that one. So this is

722
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: weird though. Here's another piece. So those are three pieces

723
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: of evidence that Uncle Sam may have been involved. The

724
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: fourth piece, which I think is one of the most

725
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: difficult to deny, is that despite being apparently a very

726
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: very very valuable asset and witness, he had absolutely no

727
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: protection when he was out in the field. He was

728
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: out in the wild with no guards and no monitoring,

729
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 1: and the local legal machinery caught wind of this, and

730
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: they were livid. After Seal died, Louisiana Attorney General William

731
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: Goost hand delivered a letter to US Attorney General Edwin

732
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: mess in protest of the government's failure to protect Seal.

733
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: Goose called him a heinous criminal, but he added at

734
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: the same time, for his own purposes, he had made

735
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: himself an extremely valuable witness and infallment in the conscious

736
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: fight against illegal drugs. Bariss Seal's murder suggests the need

737
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: for an in depth but rapid investigation into a number

738
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: of areas. Why was such an important witness not given protection,

739
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: whether he wanted it or not. There's still no answer

740
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: to this question today because if you are if you

741
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: are an informant like that or an important witness, you

742
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: don't get to a shoe protection like you can say no,

743
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: you can't come in my house, for instance, but you

744
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: can't you can't stop somebody from parking that windowless flower

745
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: van down the street, Oh for sure, But no one

746
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: was there sleep at the switch.

747
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 2: You know, there's even a there's an attorney who who

748
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: gives you kind of it's a great picture of probably

749
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 2: what occurred within Barry Seal's life numerous times where he

750
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: was caught red handed smuggling drugs. The DEA the CIA

751
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: get involved that when they show up the people who

752
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: actually were there, who said, you know, put your hands up,

753
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: we've found all your drugs. You're under arrest. Those guys

754
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: get told to get the heck out of there while

755
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: the DEA and CIA come through. He's out of here, yeah,

756
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: and they take over the operation. Then who knows what

757
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 2: actually occurs to Barry Seal, But it doesn't appear that

758
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: he's being charged with anything.

759
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: Nope, So.

760
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,479
Speaker 2: Are we complicit here?

761
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 3: What gifts?

762
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? At this point again to be absolutely and I

763
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: would argue overly fair. The three Cartel assassins are legally

764
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: considered the guilty parties here. One of them has already

765
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: died in prison. But it does seem strange if you

766
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: think about the way organize crime works in this, in this,

767
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, in this theater of underground war, it seems

768
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: very strange that the cartel might risk an assassination when

769
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: there's already so much heat on Seal and so much

770
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: media attention. Why would you risk angering the world's most

771
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: dangerous and largest military governmental apparatus if you could find

772
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: any other possible way to do it, like because that

773
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: that could easily spark a war. So that means that

774
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: the cartel must have had some sort of internal logic

775
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 1: or calculation, because they are a rational actor, they must

776
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: have said this is somehow worth it.

777
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: Well for a while there he is sending a ton

778
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: of product over into a market for it to be

779
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: sold right for these cartels, So he is certainly valuable

780
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: to them. He has whatever connections he needs to have,

781
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: and he's a skilled enough pilot to where he is

782
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 2: the guy that they're looking for.

783
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 1: But they're looking to they already had plenty of skilled

784
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: pilots that they could find.

785
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: They did, but he had some special sauce with connections

786
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: with people or something, right, I mean it has you

787
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 2: have to imagine that he there is something special to

788
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: this guy.

789
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: It's a combination of the skill and also that hootspot

790
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 3: you were talking about at the top of the show, Ben,

791
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 3: I mean it takes a special kind of bravado to

792
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 3: make these flights so regularly and not be scared of

793
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: the consequences.

794
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, So, I mean I think that's a valid point,

795
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: and it's something that he supported too. In interviews that

796
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: people had with him before his death, he said, you know,

797
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: putting yourself in life, in danger and situations is what

798
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: I'm all about. But again, it's it's a question why

799
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: would the cartel do such a blatant, obvious hit and

800
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: get caught and then not why did the US government

801
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: take no real action against the cartel Because they did

802
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: get caught, the cartel may have had a green light

803
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: from the US government. That's what a lot of people believe.

804
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: The Median hit story always had this big flaw. Who

805
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: would try to kill one in the CIA's own And

806
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: then this means that we inevitably trace back the bread

807
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 1: crumbs along or you know, the strings along the web

808
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: and ask ourselves, could this be related to the story

809
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: of the octopus and Danny Cassilero or related investigators like

810
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: Gary Webb, both of those men, by the way, who

811
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: died under what are arguably mysterious circumstances.

812
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really feels like it's connected up to all

813
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: of these things that we've talked about before. This concept

814
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: of the US military and intelligence agencies, at least factions

815
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: of them, working with drug cartels, using this money to

816
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 2: finance essentially conflict in other countries in South America and

817
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: other places for.

818
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: Coups like his moneymaker.

819
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's crazy. It feels like there's something much,

820
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: much bigger. I mean, we kind of get we we

821
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: get these tiny little windows right through all these men's

822
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: stories of the investigators who seem to have found something

823
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: or have worked in some capacity but end up losing

824
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: their lives. But it really does feel like somebody needs

825
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 2: to come forward and give a really big picture to

826
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: what this really looks like.

827
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: People have said they were about to and you know,

828
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: we don't know if they all have the same big picture,

829
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: but one thing's for sure, they keep dying before the

830
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 1: word gets out.

831
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're I mean, we are certainly not trying to

832
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: do that.

833
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: We do not have a big picture.

834
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: No, we do not know any essay.

835
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: In turn, we do not.

836
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: We are just some guys reading stuff on the internet

837
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 2: and watching some movies. That's all. Except well Paul knows

838
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 2: a little more. But he's oh no, no, he's saying

839
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: he doesn't.

840
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: He'll never tell that, you'll never tell.

841
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: So it's it's strange because we draw to an unhappy

842
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: conclusion during the bulk of Barry Seal's career. At the time,

843
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: most people and media outlets refused to acknowledge the CIA's

844
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: deep involvement in the Central and South American drug trade.

845
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that someone was bringing cocaine that

846
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: would later be made into crack into urban areas in

847
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: the eighties. The idea that the government would be at

848
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: all aware of that was treated as anathema in mainstream media,

849
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 1: and instead these accusations would be dismissed as conspiracy theories,

850
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: which is odd when you think about it, because dismissing

851
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: that stuff as a conspiracy theory meant those same authorities,

852
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: the NBCs, the CBS's and so on, were participating in

853
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: the very conspiracy they purported to investigate and dismiss and

854
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: even now mention this At the top, some people will

855
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: argue Seal was never involved with the CIA, and that's

856
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: based on entirely on a statement in court and the

857
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: fact that those statements were considered sworn testimony, which is

858
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: like they put their hand on a book, they said

859
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: they would tell the truth, and so an ergo, everything

860
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: they say after that point must be true.

861
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: What a broken system.

862
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: But we have a statement from former FBI agent Del

863
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: Han explaining this.

864
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: The only federal agency Seal ever worked with was the DEA.

865
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: Seal's sworn testimony was that he had no knowledge of

866
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: ever working for the CIA. In debriefings after his plea bargain,

867
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: he never told me or anyone else he was a

868
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: CIA asset or had worked for any agency other than

869
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: the DEA. Our task force never developed any evidence that

870
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: the CIA was involved with Seal in drug smuggling. There

871
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,479
Speaker 2: is not one iota of credible evidence that Seal ever

872
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: worked for the CIA or assisted them in any operations.

873
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 2: And the CIA denied any connection with Seal.

874
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, so that solves it.

875
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's under oath and I guess we

876
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: believe them.

877
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: And the CIA said they didn't do anything.

878
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: Well, of course they didn't. Why would they do anything.

879
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: So we do have to note that Han does emit

880
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: at least four CIA associated pilots also smuggled various things

881
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: into and out of South America, so he knew it happened.

882
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: He's not saying it didn't happen. He's just saying that

883
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: the CIA and Seal both denied involvement, and they couldn't

884
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: find anything, so he thinks it's not true. But enough

885
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: about Agent Han, what do you think you listening now,

886
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: would a government agency actually cooperate with a drug cartel

887
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: to murder one of their own for believers of certain

888
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: JFK conspiracy theories, the answer is obvious, but we want

889
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: to hear from you. And also, what do you guys think.

890
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 3: Is this also kind of almost like a false flag

891
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 3: attack where it's like not an attack, like in the

892
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 3: sense of a war, but it's like a subterfuge right

893
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: where it's like, of course it was the cartel that

894
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: killed him, all signs point to that, you know, but

895
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 3: it was actually us making it look like those were

896
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 3: the cartels that killed him, because that was the easiest

897
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 3: thing to you know, that was the easiest, most logical explanation.

898
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: I guess right, Well, the.

899
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 2: Whole thing is a proxy war that he's getting involved with,

900
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: whether he knows it or not, and he's playing both sides.

901
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: It's so tough. It's so tough you're asking what we think,

902
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: ben so so who Let's let's just put it this way.

903
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: Is the DEA going to send a crapload of C

904
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 2: four in a plane over to assist either side with Cuba.

905
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: DA probably not CIA. Shrug, dot Giff.

906
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: I mean, shrug for sure, DoD Giff. But I guess

907
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is this this idea that he wasn't

908
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 2: working for them in some way that would entail him

909
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: working I guess for himself directly with you know, Fidel

910
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: Castro's crew to bring all that C four over to them.

911
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 3: Was he just like a patsy? Was he just kind

912
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: of like a pawn because he got screwed and then

913
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 3: kind of had to continue playing both sides for his

914
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: own well being. I guess, you know what I mean.

915
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, like he was just it seemed like

916
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: he was at one point being super clever and then

917
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 3: something went wrong and then he kind of didn't have

918
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 3: control over his own destiny anymore. Right Well.

919
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: Also, former FBI agent that we talked about earlier, Haunt

920
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: said the evidence indicated if he had not been shot,

921
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 1: he already had plans to jump jump probation, leave town,

922
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: live in Costa Rica, and start cocaine operations up again

923
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 1: the next day. He was leaving the next day.

924
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: Interesting, So it makes you wonder if someone found out

925
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: about that FBI and put a stuff to it. That's

926
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 2: just me talking.

927
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm going to say personally my opinion,

928
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: and I don't want to color I don't want to

929
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: influence anybody writing into us. We do want to hear

930
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: your takes. But my opinion, based on the stuff we found,

931
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: is that maybe not the CIA proper, but factions within

932
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: the CIA or fact actions within related government agencies absolutely

933
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: greenlit this death and in the way in such a

934
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: way that there would be plausible deniability. You know what

935
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: I mean.

936
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: I would have to agree with you, Ben, because it

937
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: I mean, we've kind of outlined exactly why. I mean,

938
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense to just shoot a guy sitting

939
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 2: there where he was, you know, in his car, where

940
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: he was, if you really wanted to get revenge on him.

941
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: How it feels more like shutting him up?

942
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how did the how did the cartels do it? Why?

943
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if it feels like I'm not saying

944
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: the CI told him to do it. But at the

945
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: very least, as we say in the South, the CIA

946
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: and the US government did not hurt their neck looking

947
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: for the responsible parties, and they didn't.

948
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 2: They also didn't protect an asset that they had in him.

949
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: They also didn't retaliate, Yeah, which is weird because we're

950
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: we're pretty pro retaliation culture here in the US. I

951
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,479
Speaker 1: don't know, No, what do you think?

952
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, I agree with you guys completely, Like it's

953
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 3: there's just no logical way of explaining this whole thing

954
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: without there being some kind of weird double dealing by

955
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 3: our government.

956
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 2: The biggest question for me, and you actually have put

957
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 2: this in the end of the outline here Ben the

958
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: biggest thing that we kind of glossed over, but we

959
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: mentioned it for sure. His possible involvement with the JFK assassination. Yes, yeah, yeah,

960
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 2: what if that's the reason?

961
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 3: I don't know, you.

962
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: Know, the plumb Lea story about the CIA attempting to

963
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: prevent the assassination was fascinating to me.

964
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah.

965
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: I think also at times it's tempting for We've talked

966
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: about this in the past, it's tempting for us to

967
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: think of these agencies as monolithic entities. They most certainly

968
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: are not. Things are very competitive at that level, their rivals.

969
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's more than a bit of e go involved.

970
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: Anyone is corruptible, and people who seem to in public

971
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: speaking and Sewan get along well, maybe working backstage for

972
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: directly directly contradictory forces, you know, well.

973
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 2: And we just have to mention here that a human

974
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: being can be convinced fairly easily that one course of

975
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 2: action is not only the best course of action, but

976
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: it is also either just or it is I don't

977
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 2: know how to put this correctly, that it doing A

978
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: is the right thing to do, and we have to

979
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: do A in order to achieve our goals, right, and

980
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: the greater good argument, the greater good argument can be

981
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 2: so many different things. For one situation that you could

982
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: have factions who are simultaneously within the CIA attempting to

983
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 2: this is just hypothetical. Sure, sure, factions within the CIA

984
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 2: attempting to assassinate the president while the same time a

985
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: faction of the CIA is attempting to stop the other

986
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: part of the CIA from assassinating the president, whether they

987
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: know the other one is doing rather or not.

988
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: There's some true blue idealists or patriots. And then I

989
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: don't know the scary thing about so much congressional testimony,

990
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: especially when you get to private and public entities cooperating,

991
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: which is just the drug cartel's a business. It's products

992
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: may differ from Halliburton, but that doesn't mean it's also

993
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: they're not both international businesses, and the failure to realize

994
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: that leads to a great many problems and discourse today.

995
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: If you see those congressional testimonies, they're chilling because a

996
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: lot of what people describe as they're greater good means

997
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 1: taking something that will be good for me and making

998
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: it great other people. Be damned. There's a ton of

999
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: narcissism and this kind of stuff, and yet it's disgusting

1000
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: and reprehensible to see it justified quote unquote as like, oh,

1001
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: we're we're fighting communism, that's why I need a million

1002
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: dollars or whatever. And it's just a it's a macrocosmic

1003
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: view of what happens in a microcosmic way every single

1004
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: day of a person's life. I'm not saying that every

1005
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: person listening does that sort of thing. I'm saying that

1006
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: you certainly know someone who has screwed you or people

1007
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: you care about over because they saw a greater good

1008
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: and they thought, like no one thinks that the bad guy,

1009
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: it's all for the greater good all the time. The

1010
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: person who steals handicapped parking spaces. The psychological engine is

1011
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: the same. It's a Mimi me.

1012
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: Thing, sure, And I guess the scary thing is that

1013
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,439
Speaker 2: you can convince people with the perhaps false motivation there

1014
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 2: of fighting communism. You can convince people that that is

1015
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: the true thing you're fighting for, and then you can

1016
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 2: get people to do things for you.

1017
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: For our interest for national security. And that's our classic

1018
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.

1019
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 3: It's right let us know what you think. You can

1020
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 3: reach us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist

1021
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 3: on Facebook X and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or

1022
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 3: Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1023
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,240
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1024
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,480
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1025
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,760
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1026
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

1027
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:30,680
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1028
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

1029
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

1030
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,480
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1031
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

1032
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1033
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,640
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1034
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,240
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1035
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,200
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