1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: should know the podcast. 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: That's right. Big trigger warning just straight from the jump here, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: because this is about a form of domestic violence, more 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: specifically intimate partner violence, and it's a tough one. So 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: trigger warning. 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. The reason that it's worth specifying the difference between 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: domestic violence and intimate partner violence is that domestic violence, 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: like you could have a kid who beats up a parent, 12 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: that's still domestic violence. Intimate partner violence is specifically between 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 2: two people same sex, different sex, non binary in a 14 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: relationship where one abuses the other. That's intimate partner violence, 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: and it almost always includes actual physical violence. 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, or as we'll see, where they both abuse each other, 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: which is not as typical. 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: Obviously it may be a myth as well. We'll get 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: to that later. Okay. Yeah, So what we're talking about 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: is not just intimate partner violence or domestic violence, but 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: a specific kind of domestic abuse that for a while 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: just kind of seemed like its own thing. But it 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: seems like as more and more research gets built upon it. 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: This thing that we're going to talk about, coercive control 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: is actually the basis for a lot of the domestic 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: violence or wife battering that it was long called. That 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: it's actually what's actually going on beneath the surface, and 28 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: that the actual beatings and the actual rapes inside the 29 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: home are symptoms or just the most obvious parts or 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: factors in this larger thing, which is called coerceive control, 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: where one partner essentially controls the other partner's life. And 32 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: that's generally what we're talking about today. 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the word coercion means, you know, persuasion through threat. 34 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: So in this case, coerceve control is controlling that partner 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: generally through through threat. And then you know, we'll see 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: there's a host of sort of components to all this, 37 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: but actual violence is almost always a part of it. 38 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: Not necessarily always, but a lot of times that violence 39 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: is part of a like you said, like a larger 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: plan to use the threat of that violence for control. 41 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: Right, or the violence itself for sure. 42 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 43 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: So our understanding of coercion in general dates back to 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 2: just after the Korean War, and I remember us discussing 45 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: this in the brainwashing episode. But there was a whole 46 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: thing where some POWs appeared to be to turn collaborators 47 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: with the Chinese and Korean captors, and it was chalked 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: up to brainwashing, that they had been brainwashed, which must 49 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: mean that they probably were pretty weak minded to begin with, 50 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: so give him a break. And there was a social 51 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: scientist named Albert Bitterman who was not satisfied by the answer, 52 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: and he started studying what tactics the Korean and Chinese 53 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: captors had used on the POWs to get them to 54 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: seem to collaborate. And what he found was that they 55 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 2: used tactics that he came to kind of break out 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: into what constitutes coercion, how somebody could make someone act 57 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: against their will seemingly under their own will and without 58 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: just using phys violence. And he came up with a 59 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: whole list of stuff. 60 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, and you know, again just to point out, 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: like his whole jam was, this is not brainwashing. This 62 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: is something entirely different. And I think and I agree 63 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: with him. I think he thought he was making it 64 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: more almost easier to believe, because brainwashing sounds so kind 65 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: of out there when you it kind of just conjuous 66 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: to mind, like people that literally don't have control of 67 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: their mind anymore. Where he's like, hey, coercion can kind 68 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: of happen to anyone, and your because your brain's not 69 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: being taken over. And like you said, he came out 70 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: with this chart of coercion and was like, you know, 71 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: the Chinese and Korean captors are doing this. It's not 72 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: like uh in World War Two with Germany in Japan, 73 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: when actual physical torture was you know, sort of the 74 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: main component in this case. And again there is some violence, 75 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: but it's more these tactics and the threat of violence 76 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: that get someone under your sort of spell in a way. 77 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, because threatening violence, when you're violent with somebody, there's 78 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: an end to it. There's a point that the person 79 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: knows is it's going to come to an end. So 80 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: now this thing that they've been worried about is actually happening, 81 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: and that means that the end is coming soon too. 82 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: The threat of violence, there is no end to it. 83 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: It's always around the corner. So it can generate like 84 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: real anxiety in ways that actual violence can't. Yeah, that's 85 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: just part of it. Another part of it is isolation, 86 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: monopolization of perception, like keeping people in a room with 87 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: the lights on twenty four hours a day. It just 88 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: has all sorts of weird effects on people. It also 89 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: helps to restrict information so they are completely isolated and 90 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: have no contact or way to get information from outside 91 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: of their captivity. Those are just a couple of them. 92 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the list goes on with humiliation, any kind of 93 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: degrading punishment, you know, stripping people naked, no privacy, not 94 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: allowed to take care of their bodies and you know 95 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom in a normal hygienic way or 96 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: bathe themselves, to basically kind of turn people and to 97 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: animals and break them down so they don't resist. Exhaustion, 98 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: of course, is one of them. You know, these long interrogations, 99 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, limiting food, limiting sleep obviously, so all of 100 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: this stuff is sort of working them hard. All of 101 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: this stuff is going to weaken their ability to resist 102 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: the coercion. 103 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the one that gets me the most is 104 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: the most despicable of all occasional indulgences. Yeah, I know 105 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: you're gonna say that, because not only does it it 106 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: almost like creates like an affinity for the captor in 107 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: the mind of the pow who's being mistreated, Suddenly there's 108 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: like this generosity that they can latch onto and be like, yes, people, 109 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: there is goodness still in the world. But the reason 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: that they're doing that is because it keeps you from 111 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: getting used to being mistreated. Man, isn't that just the 112 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: most despicable thing you can imagine? 113 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, because what that says is that a human being 114 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: could potentially get so used to that abuse, coercive abuse 115 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: and physical abuse that they're not going to talk. So 116 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: throw them a bone every now and then, and it 117 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: just shakes up their mental sort of processes so they 118 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: don't get used to it. 119 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it makes all abuse after that that much 120 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: more effective. Continuously. There's also demonstrating omnipotence, which I guess 121 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: just revealing information that they wouldn't guess that you had 122 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: would be pretty shocking and would also make you feel like, well, 123 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: there's no way to hide anything from these people. They 124 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: know everything. And then another one was trivial rules. Did 125 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: you see that one? 126 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean that's I mean, that can be 127 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: just any mundane thing, like you know, you answer after 128 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: we knock this many times, or you approached the door 129 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: in a certain way, just any kind of little trivial rule. 130 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: And again it's just about control. 131 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: Right, and it creates a habit of complying in the 132 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: subject too, right. So if you put all this together, 133 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: Bitterman is widely considered to have essentially identified the techniques 134 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: of coercion that anybody could use on anyone else. And 135 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: in fact, the US government apparently used Betterman's tactics as 136 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: a playbook at Guantanamo Bay. I'm sure elsewhere as well 137 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: that we just don't know about at the moment. And 138 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: there was also this kind of weird thread that also 139 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: came about a couple decades after Bitterman's research in the fifties. 140 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: Already in the seventies, the women's movement, like we've talked about, 141 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: really started to gain steam, right, And one of the 142 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: things that a huge focus was the plight of women 143 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: who were physically abused by their husbands battered women, that's 144 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: what they call them at the time, back in the seventies. 145 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: And one of the things that scholars, feminist scholars in 146 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: particular at the time noticed was that there were real 147 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,479 Speaker 2: parallels between the tactics that Bitterman had identified of coercion 148 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: used against POW's in the Korean War and reports of 149 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: how women were treated in the home when they were 150 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: victims of domestic abuse, and it became clear that these 151 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: coercion tactics had kind of been adopted unconsciously by men 152 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: who abused their wives, and that, in a very roundabout way, 153 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: for decades later, laid the groundwork for our idea of 154 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: coercive control. 155 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean you grew up. You were 156 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: a little younger than me. But in the seventies and eighties, 157 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: the notion of you know, like you said, what they 158 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: call it at the time, the battered woman, the battered wife, 159 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: was a real It was really on the radar. I 160 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: remember when I was a kid, there there were movies, 161 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: there was this It just scared the crap out of me. 162 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: Not to get too personal with my family, but you know, 163 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: I've talked a little bit before about having a nuts 164 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: great childhood, and that just that the awareness of that 165 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: and fighting in the house all combined to just terrify me. 166 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: When I was a kid. I remember there was and 167 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: I looked it up today because I was like, man, 168 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: I remember there was a TV movie with the guy 169 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: from mash that just terrified me. And I looked at 170 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: you from Honeycut, So I looked at it was an 171 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: NBC TV movie called Battered, and it was three sort 172 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: of stories. Mike Ferrell was one of them, like the 173 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: nicest guy ever on MAS played an abusive husband and 174 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: it just told each of these stories and it was 175 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: I remember this coming on and it just like it 176 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: was awful for a young kid to watch that while 177 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: also was sort of living in a household of yelling 178 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: and fighting and stuff like that. So it was just 179 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: it was a big part of the national landscape if 180 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: like a kid is hearing about this stuff all the 181 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: time via TV movies. Another one that came out was 182 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: obviously The Burning Bed, which was is a big case 183 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about now because it was 184 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the movie it was a landmark TV movie, 185 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: but the case that it was based on also a 186 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: landmark case in a lot of ways. 187 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, One, I'm really sorry that you experienced that as 188 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: a kid. That's awful things. And two, yes, the Burning 189 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: Bed was a huge, huge deal. It changed everything. Like 190 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: this was nineteen eighty four that the TV movie came out. 191 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: I think the book came out in nineteen eighty and 192 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 2: the whole thing was based on the experience of a 193 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: woman who throughout the seventies suffered tremendously at the hands 194 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: of her husband and then ex husband, who continued to 195 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: abuse her even after they were divorced. The woman's name 196 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: was Francine Hughes. Her husband and then ex husband's name 197 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: was Mickey Hughes. And he did everything like he beat her, 198 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 2: he raped her, he controlled her. The story itself is 199 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: actually you could do an entire episode on it easily. 200 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: It was just so horrible that this happened, and it 201 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: so captured the attention of America. Thanks to the book 202 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: and then to the TV movie, it really kind of 203 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: helped move forward this awareness of just how bad the 204 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: lives of battered women were, because it was not a 205 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: secret that there were women who were beaten by their 206 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: husbands in America. I think it was outlawed in the 207 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: United States, first by Alabama in eighteen seventy one. By 208 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty, every state has had outlawed wife abuse in 209 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: the home right, Yeah, but in the courts that wasn't enforced. 210 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: There was very frequently not enforced, and in general American 211 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: culture viewed wife battering spousal abuse as a private family matter. 212 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: As long as it happened buying closed doors and your 213 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: your wife didn't show up to work, if you let 214 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: her have a job with black eyes, people were probably 215 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: going to look the other way. Even if you ended 216 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: up in court over it, criminal court over it, you 217 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: were still probably going to get off because it was 218 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: a family matter. And I saw, just real quick, I 219 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: saw a quote that a writer named Aaron blakemore for 220 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: I think history dot Com found there was a New 221 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 2: York City councilman in nineteen seventy six named Leon Katz 222 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: who said, are we to break up a marriage simply 223 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: because a man beats his wife? Like that was the 224 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: attitude at the time. So this is what the feminist 225 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: movement was up against. And circling back to the burning 226 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: bed help a. 227 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: Lot, yeah, big time. You know you mentioned in case 228 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: people are confused about how or why he continued to 229 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: abuse her after their divorce. This is over a thirteen 230 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: year period. But they divorced in nineteen seventy one, he 231 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: got in a bad car accident and she let him 232 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: move back into the house and suffered six more years 233 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: of abuse. And this guy was a despicable human being. 234 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: If all of this abuse wasn't enough, and we're talking, 235 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: and this is stuff that'll come out, you know, as 236 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: clear examples of course of control, like not just the 237 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: physical violence, but threatening her life. She made her drop 238 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: out of secretarial school, burn her books the night of 239 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: the final incident. And this seems to be a common 240 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: thing as far as tying in historical cultural at the 241 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: time domestic roles of like, you know, the wife cooks 242 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: for the husband and takes care of the kids. In 243 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: this and that he like destroyed the dinner, threw it 244 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: on the floor, made her clean it up, made her 245 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: cook it again, that kind of thing. And then in 246 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: another incident, strangled his daughter's kitten in front of uh. 247 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: He actually did. He didn't just threaten. 248 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: To no, no, no, He did so a despicable human 249 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: to the point where after that final night where she 250 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: was raped, one final time, he passed out drunk and 251 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: she set his bed on fire, which is why it's 252 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: called the burning bed. And Fara Faucet got a lot 253 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: of acclaim for taking on like a really serious role 254 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: and portraying Francin and Hughes to the great Paul La 255 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: Matt's despicable Mickey Hughes. 256 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: I had not heard of him. I didn't bother to 257 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: look him up. Who is he? What did he do? 258 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: Oh? He was He was a great actor in the seventies. 259 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: He was in a lot of stuff. 260 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't recognize him. 261 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you remember Melvin and Howard Jonathan Demmy move about 262 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: the true story of the when the guy picked up 263 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes as a hitchhiker. No, he was Melvin and 264 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: he was in a lot of stuff, Paulick guy in 265 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties. 266 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I got to see that movie. I've never heard 267 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: of that. 268 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: Well, it's not what you think. 269 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: It's not a fun road trip in that tradition of 270 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: road trip. 271 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's a very good movie. But that's a 272 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: very small part of it. Anyway. Just a couple of 273 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: more quick points just of how reprehensible this case was. 274 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: When the cops came they that night, they didn't arrest him, 275 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: and in front of the cops, they later testified the 276 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: police said that in front of them, he said it's 277 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: over for you because you called the police in front 278 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: of the cops and they still didn't arrest him. And 279 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: after she killed him, she drove straight to the police 280 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: station and confessed. 281 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: Right, and we should say they had kids, and the 282 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: first thing she did was get the kids out of 283 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: the house and then go back in and set the 284 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: bed on fire or said the bedroom fire around him. 285 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, there was. Yeah, the impact that the book 286 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: and then the TV movie had and spreading awareness is 287 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: like really hard to overestimate. But it had another really 288 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: significant impact too in the courts, because remember we said 289 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: that the course would just kind of be like, yeah, sorry, 290 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: you shouldn't have burned dinner. I mean that's just what 291 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: women do. You cook dinner and you do it right 292 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 2: or else who knows what your husband's gonna do kind 293 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: of thing. Right. And this, this case that Francine Hughes 294 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: actually went through when she turned herself into the police 295 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: and was charged with first degree murder, she got off 296 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: just because she used a temporary insanity defense. I think 297 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: that that was what it took for a jury to 298 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: be like, okay, fine, we'll we'll let you off. We'll 299 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: buy that, but we can only buy that because it 300 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: doesn't matter what else he did to you. All we 301 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: know about is the physical abuse that happened from time 302 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: to time, And yeah, that sucks, but is it enough 303 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: to kill a man and she had to use temporary insanity. 304 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: And shortly after that, I think because of that case, 305 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: a psychologist named Leonora Walker started studying women who had 306 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: killed their abusers and found that there were a lot 307 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: of similarities between them, and she came up with a 308 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: concept called battered Women's syndrome, and essentially it sought to 309 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 2: explain how a woman put in a position of being 310 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: abused could reasonably kill her abuser, even if the abusers 311 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: not in the act right then of committing violence against them. 312 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: And it laid a really great legal groundwork for a 313 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: lot of women to follow who did kill their abuser, 314 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: because this had kind of been established like this is 315 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 2: a thing, and that ultimately kind of came out of 316 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: the Francy Use case. 317 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she she got off on temporary insanity, but 318 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: also may have only gotten off on temporary insanity because 319 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: of the credible groundswell of support from you know, obviously 320 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: largely women protesting outside the court. I mean, it was 321 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: a very well known case and a very big deal, 322 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: and it was not one that could just be sort 323 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: of dealt with as usual because there were hundreds and 324 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of women outside the court every day with signs 325 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: like demanding acquittal for Francy and Hughes. So it was 326 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: just sort of one of those moments in time and 327 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: history that changed everything because people spoke. 328 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: Up so that the whole the syndrome really gets a 329 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 2: lot of people. Woman's gets a lot of people too. 330 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: There's some issues with the concept of battered women's syndrome 331 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 2: and that it basically says you have to be the 332 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: kind of woman who is submissive and passive and your 333 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: husband's still beating you up. You're still cooking dinner correctly, 334 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: and your husband's still beating you up. It calls for 335 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: like a certain kind of perfect victim for juries to 336 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: accept battered women's syndrome defense, and some people are like, Okay, 337 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: we need something that's like more gender neutral and essentially 338 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: says any reasonable person would kill their abuser given these circumstances. 339 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: And so battered women's syndrome has kind of evolved over time, 340 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: and the circumstances that have kind of been laid. Is 341 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: the groundwork for that reasonable woman to kill her abuser 342 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: or reasonable person to kill her abuser was coercive control. 343 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and within that Leonora Walker sort of groundwork that 344 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: she laid one of the big things that she focused 345 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: on with something called learned helplessness, and that is this 346 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: concept that, hey, they have they have learned to be helpless. 347 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: They probably didn't go into this relationship or not necessarily 348 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: went in to this relationship like that, but through the 349 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: tactics of coercive control a KA torture when looked at 350 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: in a military setting, they have learned to be helpless 351 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: and maybe the only option is to set their back 352 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: on fire. 353 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's also a good example of how other communities, 354 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: like black communities, like black women in particular, are left 355 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: out of that battered women's because again, it requires them, 356 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: the victim to be perfect white, submissive, middle class typically, 357 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: and if you're a black woman culturally speaking in America, 358 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: you're viewed is much stronger physically emotionally than a white 359 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: woman of that description. And so it'd be tough for 360 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: you to use battered women's syndrome because maybe you didn't 361 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: learn learned helplessness, and that's a part of it. Maybe 362 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: you do seem like you wouldn't put up with much guff, 363 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: so you killed the guy who knows it's just that 364 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 2: battered women's syndrome was much more limiting. And then one 365 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: of the things that coercive control does is really kind 366 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 2: of spread it out and it takes the woman out, 367 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: and it takes the syndrome out and says, this happens 368 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: a lot, and it's a pattern that can result in 369 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 2: the abuse. Are being killed by the abuse, and that's 370 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: a reasonable response to that kind of treatment. 371 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, should we. 372 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 2: Take a break, Yeah, for sure. 373 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back with more on coercive control. 374 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: All right, So we've been throwing that word around a lot. 375 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: That term, rather coercive control, was actually coined by a 376 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: guy named Evan Stark, a sociologist, and again it's sort 377 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: of trying to highlight the idea that what's going on 378 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: is not just physical violence, but really just a deprivation 379 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: of freedom, making sure that your partner doesn't have autonomy 380 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: by controlling them. And he wrote a book in two 381 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: thousand and seven called Coercive Control colin of course, the 382 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: Entrapment of Women in Personal Life. Evan Stark has done 383 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: some pretty great work. In nineteen seventy nine started getting 384 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: into domestic violence work along with his wife, who was 385 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: a physician named Anne Flitcraft who worked at Yale New 386 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: Haven Hospital and noticed in the seventies that way more 387 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: women were coming into the er that had been beaten 388 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: up by their partner than the statistics typically had indicated. 389 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: I think it was supposedly like one in twenty and 390 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: she said it's actually more like one in four. 391 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. That was another way that I think society lived 392 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: with itself and being complicit in allowing domestic abuse. It 393 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: was this pretty rare, and Flickcraft was like, no, twenty 394 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: five percent of women who come into the er were 395 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: beaten by their husbands or sent there by their husbands. Right. So, 396 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: in addition to kind of supporting the women's movement at 397 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: the time and their assertions that this was a big 398 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: deal and we need to do something about it and 399 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: it's really widespread, Flickcraft's research inspired her husband to kind 400 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 2: of go off and do this parallel work I guess 401 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: where he tried to figure out how to explain how 402 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: a woman could kill her husband and it not be 403 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 2: because she's crazy or because she was a perfect victim. 404 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: So he started looking into like they did some side 405 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: research together, and they found something that people hadn't really 406 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: realized before that in addition to women reporting being beaten. 407 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 2: They also reported this whole kind of cluster of other 408 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 2: mistreatment at the hands of their spouse, and that they 409 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: kind of followed a pattern, and those patterns really resembled 410 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: the coercion that Albert Bitterman had identified back in the fifties. 411 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was kind of Bitterman plus almost 412 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: because in the context of a domestic partnership or marriage 413 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: or whatever, and not a pow. And again, this is 414 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and early eighties, when you know, 415 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: the culture of how you partner and what partners are 416 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: responsible for was a lot different than it is now. 417 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: So this is in context of back then. 418 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: I mean even ten years ago chuck, Oh. 419 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, But especially in the late seventies and 420 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: early eighties, it was as far as coercive control goes, 421 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: you know, things again like dinner, are my clothes ready? 422 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: Are they iron properly? Have you cared for the kids 423 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: in the right way? And not just like oh I'm watching, 424 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: but like you said, even the perfect dinner could be 425 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: made and that's thrown on the floor. It's all about, 426 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, controlling and manipulating and that threat of physical 427 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: violence that is peppered in along the way to you know, 428 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: to kind of hold that weight. 429 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that at the time, especially American 430 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: culture viewed those roles as specifically for women. Then a 431 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: man being upset when dinner wasn't made correctly, I mean, 432 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: that's that didn't strike anybody as completely abnormal. That wasn't 433 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: like a hey, hey, what's going on here kind of thing, 434 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: and that helped reinforce these patterns of domestic abuse that 435 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: included coercion, like constant criticism and nagging that led to 436 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: dehumanization and the humiliation that that having your dinner thrown 437 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: on the floor, being made to clean it up and 438 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: then recook it creates in the person. This is the 439 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: stuff that that Evan Stark really started to tease out 440 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: from the Battered Women literature and created like this whole 441 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: body of research that it's weird. The way that I 442 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: saw it was he took this kind of like little 443 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: germ that grew out of like a flower that was 444 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: in the midst of blossoming, and found that that germ 445 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: led to actually the foundation that the flower was growing 446 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: out of was it the confusing So the women's movement 447 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: was making a headway with the Battered Wives Awareness movement. Right, 448 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: that's the flower blossoming. And then Evan Start comes along 449 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: is looking at that and he notices there's a little 450 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: piston or something or stamen can never remember what's what 451 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: pist and sure, and that's growing, not a piston, a pistol, right, 452 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: and that's growing out of that flower. And that pistol 453 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: is the is coercive control. And as he started to 454 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: follow it, he realized that actually, that's not just this 455 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: little part of the flower. This is the thing, the 456 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: substance that the flower is growing from. That coercive control 457 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 2: is really what's going on in the vast majority of 458 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: domestic abuse cases. The battering that can bring the cops 459 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: to the house. That's just what we witness. That's just 460 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: what pops its head up in the public sphere behind 461 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: closed doors. It's even worse than any of us even imagined. 462 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what this all led to is 463 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: basically the long and the short was they were saying, 464 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't have to show bruises to have 465 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: someone believe that you're being abused, because there's all kinds 466 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: of abuse a woman, you know, at the time, and 467 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure this still goes on sometimes, but at the time, like, 468 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: if you were an abused partner in a relationship and 469 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: you had children, they may take your kids away as 470 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: the victim slash survivor because the kids witness this stuff 471 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: and they might be in foster care. So this was 472 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: sort of a normal thing at the time, and they 473 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: were saying, like, no, you don't have to show bruises. 474 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: The partner doesn't necessarily have to have mental health problems 475 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: and lose their children. So in nineteen ninety Stark opened 476 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: a forensic social work practice where he would go in 477 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: and testify in court on behalf of these women and say, 478 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: you know, and sort of preach this gospel basically on 479 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: behalf of these women, saying you can't take their kids away. 480 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: There was I believe fifteen women in New York that 481 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: had their kids placed in foster care that he testified 482 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: for as and one of them actually murdered her abusive husband. 483 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: So he was really doing some pretty astounding work. 484 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine Chuck, like you have to plead insanity or 485 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: temporary insanity so that you don't get the electric chair 486 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: of the gas chamber. But then they're like, okay, but 487 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: you're crazy, So you can't have your kids anymore because 488 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: your husband abused you. That's the hand you were ended 489 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: up being dealt in life. 490 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, and you know, once they started 491 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: diving into the research, they found that sixty to eighty 492 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: percent of women who look for assistance because of violence 493 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: in the household have experienced coor some of control. So 494 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: twenty to forty percent is just physical violence, but up 495 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: to eighty percent is like controlling and manipulating their lives, 496 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, like they make movies about this stuff. Now. 497 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: Don't know how this became a movie plot, but I 498 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: feel like I've seen half a dozen movies where there's 499 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: some sick o guy that like has detailed instructions written 500 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: for their wife to follow to the tea over you know. 501 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: I can't think of any of them right now, of course, 502 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: but someone just recently. 503 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: I can't think of any either right now. 504 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've just seen that as a plot line a 505 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: lot lately. And that's that's all coercive control. Of course, 506 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: in these movies, you know, it's always a great like 507 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: sleeping with the enemy, that kind of thing. 508 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he was a physical abuse or two, oh. 509 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And that's an old one. I feel 510 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: like the newer ones have been more along the lines 511 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: of these what was it I just saw recently, But 512 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, in the end, of course, there's always a 513 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: good inning and that guy gets what's coming to him. 514 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because. 515 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: It's a movie. 516 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: So as Stark's research kind of gelled and solidified, like 517 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: you said, in the eighties, nineties, especially up until I 518 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: think two thousand and seven when he published that book. 519 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: Like you said, he came up with basically signs and 520 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: symptoms of coercive control as a form of domestic abuse, 521 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: and there is physical violence that is actually not just 522 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: a part of coercive control, but in relationships where the 523 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: husband dominates the wife through coercive control, the physical abuse 524 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: that the woman suffers is actually worse than other kinds 525 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: of couple situations where physical abuse happens. So it's more 526 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: frequent and it's worse. But you really want to kind 527 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: of limit that part because it can easily mislead you 528 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 2: into being like, this is what we're focusing on, because 529 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 2: that's what we did for decades, and it's like, no, 530 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: there's focus on this, but also expand your your focus 531 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 2: to include all this other stuff as well. 532 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, some of this other stuff, and again it'll sound 533 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: a lot like what we detailed with torture in the 534 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: Korean War. But isolation, of course, that's a big one. 535 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: Isolating a partner or spouse from their family and their friends, 536 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: controlling their comings and goings and social activities, spreading lies. 537 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: Maybe hey, we need to move to another state to 538 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: like really isolate them. You can't go to this thing, 539 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: you can't go to your book club, that kind of thing. 540 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: Just you know, isolation and constant monitoring, and these days 541 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: that goes all the way to like you know, cameras 542 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: in different rooms of the house and spywaar in GPA 543 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: tracking and stuff like that. 544 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the more people that your abused spouse interacts with, 545 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: the higher the likelihood that they're going to be confronted 546 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: with this idea that what they're being treated like is 547 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: not okay and not normal. So if you limit their interactions, 548 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: you can keep them more under your thumb. That's something 549 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 2: that Stark identified. Also, another way to control them is 550 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: through restricting their finances, which is another thing that was 551 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: up until very recently very culturally supported as well. The 552 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 2: man had the checkbook right, and a lot of a 553 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: lot of traditional families, the man had the credit card, 554 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: the car was in the man's name, the house was 555 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: in the husband's name. Like it was, That's just how 556 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 2: it was. So it didn't seem particularly abnormal or a 557 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: form of control, even though that's how it's used a 558 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: lot of times where the man is able to keep 559 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: his wife from running away because she doesn't have the 560 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: money in some cases. 561 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and also like I have you know, no credit, 562 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 1: no bank account, no no job, no job history, no car. 563 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's really like it's so it's it's such a 564 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: limiting thing that the very idea of leaving is scarier 565 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: than staying in a and of course this has got 566 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: huge air quotes around it, but a stable situation as 567 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: far as having a home above your head, right and 568 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: and you know, being able to buy groceries and stuff 569 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: like that. 570 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the resources that are out there that are like, no, 571 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 2: you don't have to have a car, you don't have 572 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 2: to have a credit card, will come get you, will 573 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: take care of you, will help you get on your feet, 574 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: which I think was really well demonstrated in that that 575 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: movie or limited series made. 576 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: I never saw that one. 577 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 2: What is her name? 578 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: Margaret quality. 579 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, it's just amazing, Like I just think about 580 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: that every once in a while. It's just so good. 581 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: But they did a good job of showing like how 582 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 2: that actually works. The problem is is if you're being 583 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: constantly monitored, including your internet activity, if you go onto 584 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: one of those sites you're in trouble, you're going to 585 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 2: raise the the attention of your abuser. And those sites 586 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 2: actually when you go on to them, like a domestic 587 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: violence help site, they'll pop up, will come up immediately 588 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: and say, hey, if your computer's being monitored, they can 589 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: see that you're visiting the site, so be careful. So 590 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 2: it's like just complete. You can't escape. The places that 591 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: can help you escape, you can't reach out to because 592 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: you're being monitored. And then on top of it, and 593 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: this is like a day to day thing like your sleep, 594 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: you're eating, your whatever, medications you take, whatever, just basic 595 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 2: things that people take care of themselves. This is controlled 596 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 2: for you, Like your medicine's left out. This is what 597 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: we're going to have for dinner. Make sure it's it's 598 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 2: cooked by six on the dot. We're gonna go to 599 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 2: bed at this time, and we're going to have sex 600 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: now and you're just going to go along with it. 601 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 2: That's another huge part sexual coersion. 602 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: This Another one is humiliation. You know, we talked about 603 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: that as far as the war torture, same deal, criticizing 604 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: their appearance, making fun of them in front of other people, 605 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: and then controlling how they look. You know, you don't 606 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: wear this, don't wear that. You have to wear what 607 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: I say, you have to wear your hair like this, 608 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. 609 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, pus. Also, don't forget threats. Those are a big 610 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 2: deal too, not just the threat of violence, but also 611 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 2: the threat of saying like I'm going to get the kids. 612 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 2: If you try to leave me, I'm taking the kids 613 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 2: from you. They're coming with me. Like any kind of 614 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: threat helps just kind of underpin this sense of control 615 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: or helplessness. And so there's another kind of separate thread 616 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 2: of I guess research by a guy named a sociologist 617 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: named Michael Johnson who identified the same thing as course 618 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 2: of control. But he said, no, I'm going to call 619 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 2: this intimate terrorism. And he said that there's basically just 620 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 2: different kinds of domestic violence, and course of control is 621 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 2: one of just a few of them. 622 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you mentioned earlier somebody getting abused in 623 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: a situation, but it's not part of a larger abuse pattern. 624 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: He defines that as situational couple violence, whether it's you know, 625 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: one person hitting the other, both of them kind of 626 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: going at it after, you know, usually consuming alcohol. It's 627 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: a big component of a lot of this, And especially 628 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: in the seventies, all those movies I've talked about, they 629 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: were all those guys were all drunks as well, and 630 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: that is a result of anger management skills, poor conflict 631 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: revolution still terrible, but not coerceive control. And then the 632 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: idea of violent resistance, which is the person being beaten 633 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: ultimately will will retaliate basically, either as retaliation, as payback 634 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: in an effort to resist being controlled, or just to 635 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: maintain their dignity. And in those situations it's sort of 636 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: like there is no other choice at this point other 637 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: than to strike back. 638 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 2: Right, That's the opposite essentially, or the outcome of coercive control. Sometimes. 639 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 2: I guess that's what Farah Faucea did in the Burning Bed. Yes, 640 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: there's also this concept that you touched on way early 641 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: in this episode about how it could be mutual mutual 642 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: violent control or mutual abuse and that's kind of a 643 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: controversial topic because some people are like, No, by definition, 644 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: coercive control means one partner has power over the other partner. 645 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 2: They can't have equal power over each other or even 646 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: like sea sawing power. It doesn't work that way. And 647 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 2: I think some people think it's a myth because what 648 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: they're saying is you're seeing an abused person push back 649 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 2: or fight back or defend themselves, and you're mistaking that 650 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 2: for abuse, when really they're responding to being abused. That 651 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: doesn't make it mutual. That's a normal, rational response to 652 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 2: being abuse used is to fight back, And I think 653 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 2: that's why people who think it's a myth say it's 654 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: a myth. 655 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, course of control versus just sort of 656 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: a situational violent episode or episodes. You're more likely if 657 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: it's course of control, and this makes a lot of sense, 658 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: of course, to suffer from mental health problems later on 659 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: as a survivor than you would with just situational violence. 660 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: When partners separate, it is actually likely to get worse. Yeah, 661 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: that's crazy, which that was the case with the burning bed. 662 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, they were divorced, he moved back in and 663 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: there were six more years of abuse, but separation is 664 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: going to threaten that sense of control, so a lot 665 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: of times it will intensify. And that's when stalking behaviors, 666 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, pick up obviously if they're not in the 667 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: same household anymore, and course of control, the violent episodes 668 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: are usually more serious and more frequent, which is what 669 00:39:59,120 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: you alluded to early. 670 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 2: Right, So Chuck, I say, we take our second break 671 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 2: and come back and talk about whether this whole thing 672 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: is gender specific or not. 673 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: All right, let's do it. 674 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 2: So there's a just kind of a discussion or a 675 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 2: debate about coercive control and whether it's gender specific and 676 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 2: specifically meaning the husband dominates the wife, and researchers like 677 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 2: Evan Stark, who coined the term coerceive control. Another sociologist 678 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: named Kristin L. Anderson say yes, that's absolutely how it is. 679 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 2: Some of them may even allow like it does in 680 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 2: very rare instances, happened the opposite way, where the woman 681 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 2: dominates the man. But for the most part, because of 682 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: these social structures that coercive control takes advantage of to 683 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 2: kind of hide in plain sight and seem normalish, that 684 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 2: requires that it be a man dominating a woman. 685 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Livia helped us with this, and she did 686 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: something that Lvia rarely does, which is sort of include 687 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: her own speculation. And I totally agree that when Stark 688 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: was doing his work sort of in the late seventies 689 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: and early eighties or through the eighties, things were different. 690 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: Dynamics were different, and women do have more access to 691 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: institutional power these days, and the idea of just sort 692 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: of traditional roles in the household are different these days. 693 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: But from where Stark was coming from, I totally get 694 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: where he would say, essentially that like even if violence, 695 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: like if a woman hits a man, it's very very 696 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: very rare for a woman to have the kind of 697 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: economic control and financial control in the household. Maybe a 698 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: better job, she came into it, more money, she's the 699 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: one that owns a house that was just a lot 700 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: more rare back then. 701 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 2: Well. Plus also, Chuck, there's studies that show that even 702 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 2: earning a higher income than your husband not only doesn't 703 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,439 Speaker 2: protect you from domestic violence, it actually increases your risk. 704 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 2: There's a twenty twenty one Australia study that said that 705 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 2: if you earn more than half of the household income, 706 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 2: your risk of being a victim of domestic violence as 707 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 2: a woman increases thirty five percent. So yeah, it really 708 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 2: kind of supports the idea that this whole thing is 709 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 2: based on these gender norms of a man dominating a woman. 710 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a sociologist named Kristin Anderson in two thousand 711 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: and nine rot a paper that kind of supported that. 712 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,439 Speaker 1: Basically was like, one of the reasons that men might 713 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: engage more in course of control or maybe even exclusively, 714 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: is to devalue femininity and to boost up their own 715 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: male ego. And in cases where and this isn't way 716 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: before like eleven years four that when you cited, she 717 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: was talking about the fact that when a woman earns 718 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: more than her husband, that threatens a man's masculinity and 719 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: that's when trouble happens. 720 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. So on the other hand, there are also studies 721 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 2: that say, no, women actually do use coercive control. In 722 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 2: some cases, it might not be as widespread and there 723 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 2: might not be as much physical violence, but all of 724 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 2: the other stuff like monitoring, isolating from support network, threats, humiliation, 725 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 2: that is not gender specific, and it can go the 726 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 2: other way, according to a twenty twenty two study in 727 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 2: the UK, So it is it depends, I think, on 728 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 2: how nuanced a definition of coercive control you want to give, 729 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 2: whether it's kind of gender specific or not. 730 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. In that twenty twenty two study, just to be clear, 731 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: was when they have found women who have been the 732 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: perpetrator of intimate partner violence in those situations, they are 733 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: more likely than their male counterparts to have used course 734 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: of control rather than physical abuse, which is a big distinction. 735 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 2: It is, for sure. But then one other thing that 736 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 2: has come out of research too is that this can 737 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 2: also occur in same sex couples, that one can dominate 738 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 2: the other, which also kind of undermines the idea that 739 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 2: it's gender specific. 740 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 741 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,919 Speaker 2: So there's a big push to say, Okay, we've got 742 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 2: this whole domestic violence battered women's syndrome defense going, let's 743 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 2: you know, what about the women who don't show up 744 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 2: to the er with a broken arm or a black 745 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 2: eye or something, but their lives are still completely controlled 746 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 2: and just destroyed by their husbands. How do we get 747 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 2: them out of those situations? And some people are like, well, 748 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 2: let's figure out how to outlaw coercive control, and some 749 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: places have as a matter. 750 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: Of fact, Yeah, for sure, there have been some states 751 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: that have passed some laws about course of control, some 752 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: countries that have taken action, and they all kind of 753 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: work in myriad ways. In the UK it is defined 754 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 1: as a crime, which is great. In the United States, 755 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: like California, they made it. This is interesting, they made 756 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,240 Speaker 1: it a civil violation as part of their the Family 757 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: Code of the state, so you can use it. It's less 758 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: like a crime throw a person in jail, and more 759 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: use it civilly to get a restraining order maybe, or 760 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,919 Speaker 1: if there's a custody dispute or something. It can be used. 761 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: And we should draw a clear distinction here. It's like 762 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: it's obvious, I think, but this is not. This has 763 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: nothing to do with like BDSM, which can involve dominating 764 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: someone very specific instructions and control on you know, sexual 765 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: behaviors in the bedroom as a completely different things. And 766 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: then what we're talking about here. 767 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's willing, there's no coercion involved, even it's 768 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 2: like simulated exactly. Yeah, And Livia cited this California case 769 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 2: that where a woman was able to use coercive control 770 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 2: where she did not suffer any physical violence, but was 771 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 2: controlled by her husband, like who gave her pages and 772 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 2: pages of instructions on how to do everything from wash 773 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 2: the dishes to those of the time right exactly. This 774 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 2: guy actually did it to what time she was to 775 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 2: wake up and get out of bed, and every day 776 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: at eight thirty pm, they had a standing appointment where 777 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 2: he would go over how she did that day and 778 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 2: there would be the threat of punishments or something like that. 779 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 2: And I couldn't find what the punishments entailed, but that's 780 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 2: how she lived. And she finally escaped it by getting 781 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: a restraining order based on that, and that was a huge, 782 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 2: huge case that came out of California, and so other 783 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 2: places are like, oh, we can do this. Other advocates 784 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 2: are like, wait, wait, wait, we should be careful with 785 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:03,280 Speaker 2: this because there's already a history of abusers using anti 786 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 2: abuse laws against their victims. Like when the cops show up, 787 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,839 Speaker 2: very often the abusers are the more convincing of the two. 788 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 2: And if you have a he said, she said, and 789 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 2: you're a male cop who kind of thinks that you 790 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,919 Speaker 2: know a woman's place actually is in the home, you're 791 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 2: probably going to believe the abuser, or in other cases, 792 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 2: you're gonna arrest both people just to be sure. So 793 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 2: that means that a victim of abuse is likely to 794 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 2: get arrested for being abused if the cops come out. 795 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 2: And so because they have a history of already using 796 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 2: the existing laws, course of control is even harder. It's 797 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 2: even squishier to prove or to see your witness, So 798 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 2: it may be even likelier that a victim of abuse 799 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 2: will end up going to jail because their abuser accused 800 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 2: them of doing the abuse. 801 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a case in Australia sort of a 802 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, a really spot on example of how awful 803 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: this can can get when you're you know, coming to 804 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: the front door as a police officer and there's something 805 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: that's happened there. This woman's name was Tamika Malayley, a 806 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: witty Indigenous woman who was attacked by her partner Mervyn Bell. 807 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: Cops show up. She's trying to get the cops to 808 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: talk to her father to try and like verify that 809 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,919 Speaker 1: this stuff is going on. The cops aren't listening. She's 810 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,399 Speaker 1: arguing with the cops and then allegedly spit on them 811 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,360 Speaker 1: or spit at them, and so they arrest her. She 812 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,239 Speaker 1: goes into custody and while she was in custody, her 813 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: partner kidnapped and killed her baby. 814 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. It caused a huge national reckoning about you know, 815 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 2: cops believing not just women, but especially marginalized women and 816 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 2: women from marginalized communities who do not get the benefit 817 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 2: of the doubt compared to say, like a white woman 818 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 2: in the same exact situation. And so that's another example 819 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 2: of them being like, Okay, should we really outlaw this 820 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 2: stuff and make it easier for the abuse to be arrested. 821 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 2: But it's still it seems to be up in the air, 822 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, which way to go. But I feel like 823 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 2: people are going more toward outlawing course of control than 824 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 2: saying like whoa, whoa, we shouldn't do that. 825 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, criminalizing is one thing. A lot 826 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: of the other things that researchers have pointed to that 827 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,240 Speaker 1: can help, you know, just an episode like this, for example, 828 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: public awareness on stuff like this, encouraging friends and family 829 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: to sort of pay attention to that kind of thing 830 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: rather than just like looking for bruises or whatever, or. 831 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,239 Speaker 2: Being like, yeah, husbands get jealous. That's just what husbands do, 832 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:44,880 Speaker 2: and like explaining it away. 833 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, providing resources to help people because you know, we 834 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,160 Speaker 1: mentioned that, especially with course of control. A lot of 835 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: times there are in situations where they they will leave 836 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: with nothing, so resources so people feel like they can 837 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: leave with nothing and still survive is very very important. 838 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then improving women's like position in society overall 839 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,280 Speaker 2: would help a lot. If women were treated more equally, 840 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,720 Speaker 2: not just on paper, but culturally as well, that would 841 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 2: solve a lot of these problems. 842 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 843 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 2: So there has been some progress. The Violence Against Women 844 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 2: Act of nineteen ninety four was passed and since then 845 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,720 Speaker 2: in domestic violence, non fatal domestic violence in the United 846 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 2: States fell sixty three percent, and intimate partner homicides fell 847 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 2: from twenty two hundred to sixteen hundred and forty for 848 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 2: female victims eleven hundred to seven hundred for male victims. 849 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 2: So there is there is, like you know, progress being made, 850 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 2: but there's still a long long way to go unfortunately. 851 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be clear, that is cases of physical violence. 852 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 1: They don't have studies like that on course of control, 853 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: which is part of the problem. 854 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 2: Yep, you got anything else. 855 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we should encourage people. There is a 856 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,080 Speaker 1: National Domestic Violence Hotline. It's open twenty four to seven 857 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,400 Speaker 1: In English and Spanish, it's one eight hundred. I guess 858 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,360 Speaker 1: just eight hundred these days. Chose how old I am 859 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: nine seven two three three eight hundred seven nine nine 860 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: seven two three three. I can't imagine how hard it 861 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:27,240 Speaker 1: is to make that phone call. But if this episode 862 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: speaks to your life in a specific way, then please 863 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: seek help and reach out to a friend or family 864 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,479 Speaker 1: member for help to help you pick up that phone 865 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: if that's what it takes. 866 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 2: Agreed, Chuck, We'll put in thanks for saying that too. 867 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and whatever country you're in most likely has some 868 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: sort of hotline, so we can't list them all here, 869 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: but please look into that. 870 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to know more about coercive control, 871 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 2: start reading about it on the internet. There's a growing 872 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 2: body of research about it, and it's fascinating and repellent 873 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 2: at the same time, but hopefully it's going to improve 874 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 2: lives across the board. And since I said that, it's 875 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 2: time for listener mail, I'm. 876 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,720 Speaker 1: Gonna call this documentary documentary recommendation for you, my friend. 877 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 2: Oh, okay, I like that. 878 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, I've been listening for a long time. Love 879 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,840 Speaker 1: what you do. Never really thought i'd every reasoned email, 880 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: but this felt to kismet. It's kind of a fun coincidence. 881 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,799 Speaker 1: My roommate and I just watched the documentary The World 882 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,439 Speaker 1: Before Your Feet last night, and in the movie there's 883 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: a lot of trash on the streets of New York, 884 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,279 Speaker 1: and we were just curious about the trash issue and 885 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: the whole situation. We'd both been to New York, but 886 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:43,719 Speaker 1: it had been a while, so we forgot how bad 887 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: it was. Midway through that episode of Yours Now and 888 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: Josh said, I wish there was a way to see 889 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: what was there. I knew I had to write in 890 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 1: because this is probably a documentary that he would enjoy nice. 891 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 1: In the doc Matt Green has a goal to walk 892 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 1: every street in New York City. In the dock, he 893 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: has followed around on parts of his journey by the documentarian, 894 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,399 Speaker 1: and he tells stories about New York City and its 895 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: history throughout the journey. He also writes comprehensive blog posts, 896 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 1: and in those posts he writes about New York's history 897 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: and what buildings and spaces used to be. So, whether 898 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: you want to watch the doc or read the blog post, 899 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,640 Speaker 1: there's an answer to your curiosity, and that is again. 900 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: It's called The World Before Your Feet and that is 901 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:29,480 Speaker 1: from Tia. 902 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Tia, I appreciate that. I will definitely 903 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,280 Speaker 2: go check that out. It is right up my alley 904 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 2: walking every street in New York. Man, I'm still wrapping 905 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:39,439 Speaker 2: my head around that one. 906 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:40,439 Speaker 1: Pretty cool. 907 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 2: Well, if you want to be like Tia and recommend 908 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 2: a documentary, please do, especially if it has nothing to 909 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 2: do with ancient aliens. You can wrap it up, spank 910 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,880 Speaker 2: it on the bottom, and send it off to stuff 911 00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 2: podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 912 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 913 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,400 Speaker 1: more podcasts to my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 914 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.