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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: We had the witch hunt. It started from the day

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Speaker 1: we came down the elevator. That was the way former

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump usually described the FBI's investigation of his

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Speaker 1: campaign's ties to Russia, and former Attorney General Bill Barr

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Speaker 1: seemed to concur in that assessment. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: spying did occur. Yes, I think spying did occur. So

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Speaker 1: Bar directed U S Attorney John Durham to investigate the

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Speaker 1: FBI's investigation. Now, nearly three and a half years and

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Speaker 1: more than five point eight million dollars later, Durham's investigation

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Speaker 1: has come up empty. He lost the only two cases

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Speaker 1: that went to trial. The second acquittal came on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: when a jury found Igor dan Chenko, a Russian analyst,

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Speaker 1: not guilty of line to the FBI about where he

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Speaker 1: got his information for the infamous Steele dossier. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Eric Larson, Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric tell Us about

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Speaker 1: dan Chenko. Igor den Chenko, he is a forty four

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Speaker 1: year old Russian business analyst based in the US. He

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Speaker 1: was hired by the former British by Christopher Steele. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people remember the Steel Dossier that

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Speaker 1: was really at the center of this trial because Igor

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Speaker 1: den Chenko was the main source for providing details, including

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Speaker 1: some very stella shouts and explosive details that made their

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Speaker 1: way into the Steel Dossier, which then made its way

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Speaker 1: eventually to the FBI. So Danchenko's role was really doing

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Speaker 1: research privately for what essentially was opposition research. Eric did

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Speaker 1: he also become an informant for the FBI? He did,

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Speaker 1: you know, That's something that was discussed at the trial.

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Speaker 1: Some of the agents who testified pointed out that he

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Speaker 1: was actually considered to be a very valuable source for

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Speaker 1: the FBI, that he provided helpful information on a lot

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Speaker 1: of different investigations. He was sort of outed by the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration and that's when his tides were cut. But then,

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Speaker 1: of course under John Durham, the Justice Department then focused

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Speaker 1: on him as you know, someone who ended up being charged.

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Speaker 1: So he's had an interesting relationship with the FBI to

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Speaker 1: stay the least. So the strials about him lying to

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Speaker 1: the FBI. Was it about him lying about you know,

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Speaker 1: the details in the Steel dossier. No, it's actually about

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Speaker 1: whether or not he lied about his own sources. So

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Speaker 1: Mr Danchenko was the main source for the Steel dossier,

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Speaker 1: and then Dancenko had his own subsources, and when the

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Speaker 1: FBI started digging into its own investigation under John Durham,

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Speaker 1: they eventually, you know, found out who he was, that

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Speaker 1: he was a source for the dossier, and they had

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Speaker 1: him in in two thousand and seventeen first series of

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Speaker 1: voluntary interviews with the FBI, and they asked him about

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Speaker 1: his source. Is the alleged that he lied about his

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Speaker 1: sources on on five occasions related to two of his subsources.

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Speaker 1: But of course the jury ended up not buying that,

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Speaker 1: and it was a little bit of a convoluted case because,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, all these details that were in the

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Speaker 1: dossier were floating around the trial, but they were never

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Speaker 1: really the basis for the charges. Many of the elements

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Speaker 1: of the dossier were never proven. So Mr. Ganchenko, for example,

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Speaker 1: provided the pretty explosive claim in the dossier that there

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Speaker 1: was a well developed conspiracy between Trump's campaign and the Kremlin.

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Speaker 1: He also supplied the sort of dellacious detail about Trump's

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Speaker 1: alleged sexual behavior at a Moscow ritz Carlton in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and thirteen. Uh, none of those were ever proven,

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Speaker 1: but especially the claim about there being a conspiracy between

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Speaker 1: the campaign and the Kremlin. Of course, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: raised the alarm at the FBI, and was used early

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Speaker 1: on to get a warrant to surveil Carter Page, who

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Speaker 1: was part of Trump's campaign, to listen to his phone

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Speaker 1: calls and check his emails without him being aware, under

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Speaker 1: a law normally used to surveil foreigner. So that ended

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Speaker 1: up not ever being proven, and yet it clearly had

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Speaker 1: some impacts from the FBI, but that tip was never

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Speaker 1: part of the charge. It was whether or not he

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Speaker 1: lied about where he got that information. The Justice Department

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Speaker 1: said he did, and the jury did not agree. There

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Speaker 1: were five counts on the judge dismissed one before the

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Speaker 1: jury got the case. That's correct, before the trial was over,

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Speaker 1: before the closing arguments, when the jury was not present.

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Speaker 1: The judge said one of the claims was just two weeks,

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Speaker 1: they hadn't presented enough evidence to even justify letting the

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Speaker 1: jury decide on it. And that was specifically a claim

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Speaker 1: about whether or not Dan Chanko had lied to the

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Speaker 1: FBI when he said he had not talked about any

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Speaker 1: of the dot gave findings with a particular Democrat addict

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Speaker 1: operators named Charles Dolan, who had worked on Clinton's campaign

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Speaker 1: and lots of previous campaigns. In fact, Danchenko had exchanged

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Speaker 1: emails and things like that with Dolan, but hadn't specifically

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Speaker 1: talked to him, and the judge said the FBI asked

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Speaker 1: him if he had talked to with him, he said, no,

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Speaker 1: the meaning of talcice specific it doesn't make sense to

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Speaker 1: charge him with it. So the accounts the jury considered

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Speaker 1: were all about whether Danchenko lied about one person and

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Speaker 1: one call that's correct. There's all about whether or not

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Speaker 1: Mr Danchenko truly believed that an anonymous phone call that

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Speaker 1: he got in two thousand sixteen from a tipster, the

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Speaker 1: one who had the tip about the well developed conspiracy

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Speaker 1: between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin, whether or not

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Speaker 1: he truly believed that that caller was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Sergan Million, who was the president of the Russian American

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Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce at the time. So he said in

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Speaker 1: his FBI interview that he believed that's who the person

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Speaker 1: was who had called, And the FBI said, not only

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Speaker 1: do they believe that it wasn't him who called, but

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Speaker 1: that the call never happened, but they didn't really present

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Speaker 1: enough evidence to prove that. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: bring a federal case over what someone believed at the time.

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Speaker 1: It seems awfully thin. Were stretching it. It did seems,

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Speaker 1: you know, bin a stay the evidence that was presented.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't very hard evidence. It could go sort of

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Speaker 1: either way about whether or not he believed it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: as we know back in May, the first case from

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Speaker 1: his investigation to go to trial against former Clinton campaign

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Speaker 1: lawyer Michael Stuffman, also ended in acquittal, and he was

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Speaker 1: also charged with lying to the FBI about the Trump

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Speaker 1: Russia tips. So to bring these narrow cases about telling

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Speaker 1: what amounts of fairly small lines, I guess you could

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Speaker 1: say alleged lives that that's really what this is focusing

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Speaker 1: on after all of this time and money spent. Is

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Speaker 1: not a terribly good book for the special counsel. But

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Speaker 1: you could also argue that he is doing the job

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Speaker 1: that he was asked to do. The trial seems a

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Speaker 1: little unusual. Durham personally took far art and did he

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Speaker 1: end up lashing out at some of his own witnesses.

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Speaker 1: You know, he did question them a bit harshly. Some

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Speaker 1: of the main witnesses were FBI agents who interviewed Dencenko

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Speaker 1: in two thousands seventeen, and I think in particular, when

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Speaker 1: one said that ben Chenko had actually been a valuable

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Speaker 1: confidential human source, you know, he got a little i

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Speaker 1: think snipping into questioning, and then of course, in his

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Speaker 1: closing arguments told the jury not to feel bad for

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Speaker 1: the FBI because on the one hand, the FBI was

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Speaker 1: portrayed in the case, is being victimized by Denchenko, but

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Speaker 1: also he wanted to portray the FBI is being sloppy

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Speaker 1: and making mistakes and essentially going after Trump's campaign once fairly,

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Speaker 1: you know, prosecutors don't usually lose cases. It's unusual because

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Speaker 1: if they're bringing a case, they think they have enough

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Speaker 1: evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable death. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: of course speculation that these trials were really about putting

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Speaker 1: these FBI agents on the sand, whether or not that's

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Speaker 1: the proper use of the federal criminal trial, you know,

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Speaker 1: but that's what's certainly a lot of or Own supporters

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Speaker 1: and Trump supporters have been saying, is not all these verdicts,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're beside the plane doesn't matter. It was

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Speaker 1: exposing these that's the I agents getting details of the

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Speaker 1: investigation out in the open. But yeah, you're right. Usually

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Speaker 1: the government, you know, comes in the case like this

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Speaker 1: with the upper hand, and then usually they also come

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Speaker 1: at it with a lot more evidence. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll see what his final report does. I'm assuming it'll

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Speaker 1: be pretty damning, mostly about the FBI. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that there was some amounts of pressure for

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Speaker 1: him to bring some cases, and Denchenko not only didn't

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Speaker 1: take the stand, but didn't present a case that's correct,

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Speaker 1: which isn't terribly uncommon. I think that they felt that

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Speaker 1: the prosecution was probably a little stand and figured they

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Speaker 1: would just let it go on that the defense attorney

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Speaker 1: said during closings, I submit to you that if this

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Speaker 1: trial has proven anything, is that the Special counsel's investigation

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Speaker 1: was focused on proving crimes at any cost, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to investigating whether any occurred. I mean, that was a

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Speaker 1: focus of the defense, that this is just all about

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Speaker 1: the special counsel trying to prove his case. Right. They

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Speaker 1: said all along and even before the trial, that they

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Speaker 1: believed that this was the case of incredible government overreached

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Speaker 1: um and that you know, certainly I don't think they

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Speaker 1: would get too personal in in in the closing arguments,

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Speaker 1: but it's certainly been sent by Durham's critics. You know

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Speaker 1: that this case, these cases, this whole investigation is sort

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Speaker 1: of a remnant of you know, the Trump administration's uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of witch hunt attacks on the investigation into him

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Speaker 1: and Russia, and that you know, they really said that

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Speaker 1: John Durham is going to you know, bring exposed the

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Speaker 1: deep state, revealed this huge conspiracy people you know at

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Speaker 1: high levels are going to go down and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and clearly that hasn't born out out of all this

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Speaker 1: three and a half years. He's gotten one conviction, a

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Speaker 1: guilty play. There was one guilty plea someone a former

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Speaker 1: FBI lawyer of client Smith, who admitted he had altered

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Speaker 1: an email that was used in part of the Carter

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Speaker 1: page warrant application process. You know, he would sentence to probations. Again,

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Speaker 1: that was a fairly narrow case and it was actually

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Speaker 1: that particular wrongdoing was uncovered by the Justice Department's own

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Speaker 1: internal watchdogs rather than three terms own investigation, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't something that he even actually uncovered. So the next

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Speaker 1: thing I suppose we'll hear from Durham is his report

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Speaker 1: on his investigation. Thanks so much, Eric. That's Bloomberg Legal

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Speaker 1: reporter Eric Larson. Former President Trump's legal battles ranged from

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Speaker 1: his possession of top secret documents to the price tags

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Speaker 1: on his apartments and homes. Joining me to look at

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Speaker 1: the range of criminal investigations and lawsuits is Kenneth Gross,

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Speaker 1: Senior Political Law Council at AC and GUM. I want

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Speaker 1: to start with the subpoena from the January six committee.

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Speaker 1: So they must have known that he's not going to comply.

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Speaker 1: Litigation would take longer than they have with the mid

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Speaker 1: terms coming up, and even if he did, he'd take

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Speaker 1: the fifth as he did more than four hundred times

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Speaker 1: in the New York Ags case. So is this subpoena

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Speaker 1: just for show? Yeah? I mean I was actually talking

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Speaker 1: to Jamie Raskin on Saturday night and that committee is

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Speaker 1: you know, they're staying repeatedly that he must comply. There's

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Speaker 1: no reason to not comply, and legally it's true he

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Speaker 1: is required to comply with the subpoena, but the reality

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Speaker 1: of the situation is that I think it has more

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Speaker 1: symbolic implication than it does legal implication, because if I

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Speaker 1: were his lawyer, you know, hell would freeze over before

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Speaker 1: I allow testify under oath. So I just think that

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Speaker 1: the reality of the situation, and of course the chance

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Speaker 1: of the House going Republican in January is where he'd

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Speaker 1: count on that to get him through the process and

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Speaker 1: to get Don McGann to testify a White House counsel

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Speaker 1: took about two years. So getting Trump to testify with

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Speaker 1: the legal arguments that he would have of separation of powers,

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Speaker 1: it could easily be laid. And I just don't see

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Speaker 1: him doing it. And let's turn to moral lago. In

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Speaker 1: this litigation that's gone all the way to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: we still don't have an answer as to why the

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Speaker 1: documents were there in the first place. That's right. It

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Speaker 1: gets curiouser and curious er, if that's the word, because

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Speaker 1: you know, we keep finding out information about the documents

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Speaker 1: being moved. For all we know, there may be some

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Speaker 1: documents that Bidminster. It could be some of the Trump power.

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Speaker 1: And the why has been the unanswered questions. You know,

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Speaker 1: what was he up to? You know, you could sort

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Speaker 1: of understand it if it was a love letter from

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Speaker 1: Kim john Hood. But you know this is this goes

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Speaker 1: well beyond you know, something you'd want to put in

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Speaker 1: a frame and stick up on your wall as a

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Speaker 1: memorable experience. Uh, there's a lot of stuff in there.

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Speaker 1: We don't really even know the details, but we know

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Speaker 1: it's top secret and there have been some reports being

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Speaker 1: very s sort of documents. What's he up to? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, you know, you could speculate that

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Speaker 1: he was going to sell it or whatever given or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but we just don't know the answer to the why.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to answer that question to be able

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Speaker 1: to prosecute it criminally. You don't need to know why.

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Speaker 1: You just need to be able to damonstrate that he

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Speaker 1: knew he had these documents and he didn't turn them

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Speaker 1: over and perhaps even obstructed the investigation by saying he

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Speaker 1: turned them over when he had obviously he has these

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Speaker 1: documents that he shouldn't have under the Presidential Records Act.

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Speaker 1: Why all the litigation, Why the litigation of the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court and now the you know, the Eleventh Circuit, Why

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Speaker 1: all the litigation instead of just turning them over? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know that seems to be his way. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's got people whispering in his ear, crazy stuff that

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Speaker 1: you know, these are your documents, not the government documents.

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Speaker 1: That he's just he fights it every turn. That has

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Speaker 1: been his modus operande. Met the man in the little

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Speaker 1: late eighties. You know, he's litigated everything down the line,

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Speaker 1: and he's doing it again. And I think probably in

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Speaker 1: the back of his mind, or maybe not in the

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Speaker 1: back of his mind, but in his mind that he

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Speaker 1: could ultimately count on the Supreme Court to back him

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Speaker 1: up since he put three justices on there. But they're

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Speaker 1: not jumping into this frey, so you know, they'll just

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Speaker 1: pull out all the stops and see what happens at

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Speaker 1: the end of the process. The Justice Department is appealing

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Speaker 1: the appointment of a Special Master to the eleven Circuit.

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Speaker 1: Are they doing this because they don't want the special

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Speaker 1: Master in this case or because they're afraid of the

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Speaker 1: precedent that having a special master sets? Both? But I

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Speaker 1: think the precedent is the more concerning part, because they'll

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Speaker 1: work their way through this, and they probably weren't going

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Speaker 1: to do anything before the November election anyhow, and the

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Speaker 1: special Master was not wasting a lot of time, so

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Speaker 1: they were happy about that, But it's the precedent of this,

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Speaker 1: the idea that you would get a special Master to

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Speaker 1: come up to work. From their standpoint, especially the original

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Speaker 1: order before the Eleventh Circuit reversed it was to hold

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Speaker 1: up the criminal investigation, which didn't make any sense at all.

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Speaker 1: So for sure they don't want that precedent, and that

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Speaker 1: I think is overriding reason for them to appeal this.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like it's maybe the most clear cut

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Speaker 1: of all the cases possible against former President Trump. But

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Speaker 1: does it seem likely that a Justice Department would bring

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Speaker 1: a case like this against a former president when people

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Speaker 1: will be saying, it's just about documents, you know, why

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Speaker 1: make a federal case out of these documents? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: understand what you're saying, and you know, you can sort

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Speaker 1: of trivialize it in that fashion, and I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: he will and his supporters will. And when you talk

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Speaker 1: about an insurrection on January six, you know, that's the

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Speaker 1: big cahuna in terms of something that was challenge lenging

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Speaker 1: democracy while we were trying to approve a new president

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Speaker 1: and say, well, that's the real heavyweight. Why are we

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Speaker 1: screwing around with the document, which is more of the tail. However,

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Speaker 1: it is clear cut. I mean, you have documents you're

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Speaker 1: not supposed to have. And it's one thing if you oops,

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean they were you know, part of papers.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know I had him here here, you can

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Speaker 1: have them back. But this thing is dragged on now

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Speaker 1: for months, and there's been misrepresentation about the documents, evidence

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Speaker 1: of moving documents, these secure documents. And he's a private citizen.

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Speaker 1: He's not above the law. And uh, I think just

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Speaker 1: because it may not be as serious as the charges

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Speaker 1: in January six and may not resonate in the same way, UM,

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Speaker 1: I do believe the Department of Justice is moving towards

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Speaker 1: an indictment. Moving along to the New York Attorney General's lawsuit,

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Speaker 1: which hits at his company, The a g. S Office

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Speaker 1: told a court that on the same day that Trump

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Speaker 1: was hit with that two million dollars will fraud suit

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Speaker 1: by the State of New York, Trump's real estate company

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Speaker 1: registered a new entity based in Delaware, Trump Organization to

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Speaker 1: l l C. And the Attorney General says that could

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Speaker 1: potentially be used to shield his assets and she's asking

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Speaker 1: the court to use your preliminary injunction barring the defendants

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Speaker 1: from moving any significant assets during the litigation. Trump's lawyer

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Speaker 1: said an injunction is not necessary because Trump's company has

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Speaker 1: promised not to engage in improper conduct. Do you think

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Speaker 1: the judge will issue an injunction? You know, I haven't

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Speaker 1: read too much about that in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: creating another uh Trump incorporation, but the Trump Organization and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know Donald Trump's involved them with it, wants to

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Speaker 1: get as far away from Attorney General James as possible. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, getting getting an incorporated entity outside

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Speaker 1: of New York fits into that because you know, he's

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Speaker 1: getting clovered in New York with an a g that

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Speaker 1: is absolutely dead setting. Uh, you know, two ready to

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Speaker 1: bring civil actions against the corporation and those connected to it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think she has a good case? Well, I

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Speaker 1: did read the paperwork, and she put together a very

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Speaker 1: compelling case on the issue of valuation, taxes, bank loans,

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Speaker 1: uh and the other uh, you know, reasons for valuing

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Speaker 1: property that we're valued, you know, vastly differently depending on

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Speaker 1: the situation. I mean, she put together a I thought,

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Speaker 1: a very strong case. As this has been going on

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Speaker 1: and on since since the election. One suit that people

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Speaker 1: point to as being the most quote dangerous for Trump

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Speaker 1: criminally is the Georgia investigation into interference in the election,

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Speaker 1: which seems to be moving along, and the Fulton County

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Speaker 1: Prosecutor Fanny Willis has said she'll take the investigation wherever

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Speaker 1: it leads, be willing to go as far as she can.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's the most dangerous to Trump? No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I think in terms of the

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Speaker 1: ultimate penalties, I think she's sort of out in front,

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Speaker 1: or it looked like she was out in front of

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Speaker 1: though you know, she's bringing so many people before that

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Speaker 1: special grand jury. No one wants to bring a case

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Speaker 1: against Donald Trump unless they feel they've got it covered

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Speaker 1: six ways till Sunday. Uh. And I think that's what's

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Speaker 1: going on there. But you know, I wouldn't consider that

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous prosecution. I mean, these these federal cases

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Speaker 1: that are against them are are very heavy duty cases.

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Speaker 1: But it'll be interesting if she gets out in front.

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Speaker 1: U know, it does involve the sort of the Raffinsburger

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Speaker 1: you know, find me eleven thousand boats conversation which resonated.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I think it's dangerous in the sense

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Speaker 1: that she looks hell bent on prosecuting, and she's proceeding.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't call it the most dangerous case against Trump.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that there'll be any charges related to

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Speaker 1: the Capitol riots? There were some civil lawsuits. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: the big insurrection case. You know that Garland is, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, proceeding has a grand jury. We see people

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Speaker 1: like Mark Short and others walking in and out of

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Speaker 1: the courthouse recently who had a front row seat in

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Speaker 1: the White House to what was going on, many of

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Speaker 1: them and uh, you know, we saw what played out

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Speaker 1: in front of the January six hearing is the theater

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Speaker 1: of that. But those same people, many of them, are

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Speaker 1: testifying before a federal grand jury in the courthouse, you know,

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Speaker 1: And that's not being played out on TV except for

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Speaker 1: a glimpse of somebody who looks like they'd be an

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Speaker 1: interesting witness walking out of the courthouse. So you know

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Speaker 1: that that case is a very serious case, that may

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Speaker 1: be the most dangerous case. And that's the one that

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Speaker 1: seems to be quietly proceeding through a grand jury process.

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Speaker 1: And grand juries are eventually put to a vote. And

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Speaker 1: there's twenty three of them in the room, and if

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Speaker 1: they vote to prosecute, there's going to be an indictment.

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Speaker 1: Can you know? I mentioned this as far as the documents,

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Speaker 1: but what kind of evidence, like does that have to

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Speaker 1: be rock solid? Is have to be three ways from

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Speaker 1: Sunday to bring a case against not only a former president,

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Speaker 1: but a former president who you know so many people

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Speaker 1: in this country are rabid about protecting. And yeah, well

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a political fallout from many of

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Speaker 1: these cases. There's no two ways about it. I hope

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Speaker 1: it's not truly terrible. Uh. And um, assuming the case

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Speaker 1: is brought, But connecting Trump to the insurrection, you know

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Speaker 1: what we saw on TV, people breaking windows, breaking into

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Speaker 1: the Capital building, fallen policeman uh and others seriously injured,

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Speaker 1: has to be connected to Trump's actions uh, And that

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Speaker 1: there was an intent on his part. And that's where

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Speaker 1: documentary evidence and testimony of others is going to come

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Speaker 1: into play. Now, almost every person, and there have been

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Speaker 1: about eight hundred prosecutions of people breaking into the capital,

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Speaker 1: almost every single one of them to a t said

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Speaker 1: they were there because of Donald Trump. You know that

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Speaker 1: I felt, you know that, That's why I was there,

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Speaker 1: and they're kind of blaming him, if you will, for

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Speaker 1: his for their crimes. But that's not enough. They're going

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Speaker 1: to have to connect it to see if Trump's that

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Speaker 1: was Trump's intent, And uh, it would have been really

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Speaker 1: interesting if the Supreme Court, I mean, the if the

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Speaker 1: Secret Service allowed Trump to actually go to Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 1: you know, according to uh, you know Hutcherson testimony, Cassidy Hutchison.

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Speaker 1: You know, they had the struggle in the secrets, the

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Speaker 1: Secret Service in the limousine, and he wanted to go

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Speaker 1: up there. I really wonder what would happen if he

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Speaker 1: had done up there. They would have been even a

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Speaker 1: clearer case of causation, presumably. But that's what they're trying

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Speaker 1: to knit together, that that intent and causation under the

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Speaker 1: law to have that ironclad prosecution against them on the insurrection.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep our eye on all these cases. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much you can. That's Kenneth Gross of Akin Gump and

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Speaker 1: that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

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Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

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Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com. Slash podcast Slash Law,

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Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

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Speaker 1: week night at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June

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Speaker 1: Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg