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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Welcome to all you lovers out there.

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Speaker 3: This is Justin Richmond and I'm Leah Rose.

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Speaker 4: We're the host of Broken Record, where we interview your

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Speaker 4: favorite musicians and bring to life the stories behind their music,

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Speaker 4: behind some.

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Speaker 2: Of your favorite recordings.

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Speaker 4: If you're listening to this in the Broken Record feed,

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Speaker 4: welcome back. But if you're hearing us as a listener

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Speaker 4: of another Pushkin show, that's because today we're doing something special.

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Speaker 3: That's right. This is our Valentine's Day special, and today

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Speaker 3: to celebrate the music we love. Justin and I are

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Speaker 3: going to do what we love, which is argue about music.

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Speaker 4: Ros's gonna be talking to some of our friends here

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Speaker 4: at Pushkin, people who have equally strong opinions about the

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Speaker 4: songs they love.

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Speaker 2: I'll be talking about Gladwell, who.

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Speaker 4: Has a very Gladwelling intake about why he believes country

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Speaker 4: is the best genre for love song and I can

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Speaker 4: guarantee it's not for the reason you may think.

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Speaker 5: It's depressive music. That's what it is.

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Speaker 3: Well also hear from Ben nattif Hoffrey, the sometimes host

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Speaker 3: of the Last Archive, about a love song he wrote

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Speaker 3: that's so good it helped him score his Forever, Valentine.

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Speaker 6: I think that folk music does love songs the best.

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Speaker 3: But first, justin I'm going to ask you what I

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Speaker 3: think is a central question of today's episode. I think

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Speaker 3: I know what you're gonna say. But out of every

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Speaker 3: genre and subgenre that exists today, which one do you

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Speaker 3: think does love songs the best?

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Speaker 2: R and B?

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Speaker 6: I knew it.

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Speaker 4: Look, when you think about it, it's really the shorthand

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Speaker 4: in music in an audio for love, Like if you

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Speaker 4: were scoring a love scene in a movie for like

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Speaker 4: Netflix or like the most amount of people are possible.

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Speaker 2: To watch, like, you would probably throw in an R and.

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Speaker 4: B song, you know, maybe uh yeah, you know Al Green,

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Speaker 4: Let's stay Together.

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Speaker 6: I'm so.

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Speaker 7: Come on.

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Speaker 2: That's that's really Those are the sounds of love right there.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's very much like what song are you choosing for

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Speaker 3: the first dance at your wedding?

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Speaker 4: The first right, the first, the first slow dance. It's

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Speaker 4: your junior high welcome dance, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 4: Or you're a senior prompt like, it's gonna be R

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Speaker 4: and B. It's kind of the cliche genre that we

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Speaker 4: go to, and I don't I think I should give

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Speaker 4: a deeper reason in here, because I think R and

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Speaker 4: B kind of gets short shrift in the music world,

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Speaker 4: like you know, rock and roll and hip hop. I've

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Speaker 4: taken up all the air in the room for sixty

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Speaker 4: years now, yeah, you know, since since the since the

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Speaker 4: British invasion.

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Speaker 3: A couple of years were spent on em but yeah.

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Speaker 4: A couple of years, yeah, right, scrill X was big

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Speaker 4: there for yeah, yeah, Yeah, It's not a sexy topic

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Speaker 4: for some reason. I think because it's so ubiquitous, because

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Speaker 4: in some ways it's so ever present, and we just

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Speaker 4: find it very easy to ignore. But when you think

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Speaker 4: about the fact that R and B comes out of

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Speaker 4: really like it comes out.

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Speaker 2: Of gospel, you know, like.

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Speaker 4: Gospel is about love and devotion to a higher being,

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Speaker 4: to God. And at some point, all these gospel musicians

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Speaker 4: that go out they want to write popular songs or

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Speaker 4: sing popular music instead of just singing in the church,

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Speaker 4: and they take everything they've learned in gospel music about

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Speaker 4: how to sort of create a stir and a fervor

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Speaker 4: around God, and they just sort of sent a romantic love.

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Speaker 4: So they just take God out and put in a man,

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Speaker 4: a woman, a lover, you know, a classic example is

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Speaker 4: Sam Cook, who's originally with the gospel group the Soulsters,

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Speaker 4: and he releases a song He's so Wonderful, which is,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's a gospel.

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Speaker 8: Track, wonderful, God, so.

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Speaker 4: Wonderful than when Sam Cook wants to cross over, like

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Speaker 4: about a year later and wants to just make an

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Speaker 4: R and B cut, he reworks that same song and

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Speaker 4: instead of wonderful, becomes.

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Speaker 2: Lovable, lovable, My.

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Speaker 8: She's lovable.

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Speaker 4: So then how could you not say that R and

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Speaker 4: B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's it has to do with the.

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Speaker 4: The ethereal and the theological, down to the romantic and

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Speaker 4: the platonic, like it's everything.

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Speaker 3: And then it just gets dirtier and dirtier as the

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Speaker 3: years go on. And then we landed the song.

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Speaker 4: Song Yeah, shout out to I Love Cisco and that's

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Speaker 4: a great album.

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Speaker 2: I love the song.

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Speaker 3: R and B does do love very very well. But

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Speaker 3: there's other genres too. I mean, look at Dolly Parton

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Speaker 3: on Joelene. She's bagging and she's pleading and she's out

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Speaker 3: of her mind. Please don't take my man.

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Speaker 2: But then who takes?

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Speaker 4: And we love Dolly, But then who takes a Dolly

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Speaker 4: song like I'll Always Love You and takes it to

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Speaker 4: the next level Whitney Whitney.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of Whitney, someone who could sing anyone's song and

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Speaker 3: make it sound phenomenal. This makes me think of the

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Speaker 3: interview you did with Babyface for a Broken Record back

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three. And he wrote some of Whitney's

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Speaker 3: biggest hits.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he wrote some of my favorite Whitney songs.

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Speaker 4: Forget about his this is some of my favorites, and

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Speaker 4: you know a million other unforgettable songs that you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they also happened to be hits. Boys and Men's End

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Speaker 4: of the Road Mariah carries We Belong Together Breathe Again

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Speaker 4: by Tony Braxton.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that was such a great interview.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, man, I mean I'm sitting there with baby Face

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Speaker 4: and I'm watching him play guitar in front of me.

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Speaker 4: It was just crazy, you know. And he's he's left handed,

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Speaker 4: he plays upside down like Hendrix. I mean, he's not

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Speaker 4: as good as a guitar players Hendrix, but I mean

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Speaker 4: it was just incredible would be that person up close

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Speaker 4: with them and seeing how he wrote these songs, and

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Speaker 4: he played for me a song he's never recorded with anyone,

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Speaker 4: and it's the very first song he ever wrote about

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Speaker 4: an early love of his first his first love actually

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Speaker 4: in high school.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear some of that.

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Speaker 1: Here I go falling in love again.

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Speaker 9: That was my first song, and I wrote it for

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Speaker 9: a girl because I was like in love and stuff, and.

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Speaker 1: So the guitar really was just an instrument.

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Speaker 9: For me to get these songs out of me. I

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Speaker 9: always like to say, even when I played and learn

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Speaker 9: things on the piano, i play, I'm not really a

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Speaker 9: piano player.

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Speaker 1: I learned things.

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Speaker 9: To support my songwriting, and that's what I did.

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Speaker 1: Then I turned that into my first song.

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Speaker 9: So I was just learning chords to support out my

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Speaker 9: little songs.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for the

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Speaker 4: girls you were in.

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Speaker 9: Love with crush and it was it was purely kind

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Speaker 9: of an escape, so to say, Wow, it wasn't anything

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Speaker 9: but that. I didn't think they were gonna go anywhere,

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Speaker 9: but that was the that was the drive, and.

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Speaker 4: You would have been like eleven twelve, ten, eleven twelve, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I can't play a deal song sweet November.

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Speaker 8: But mad that time that will read bad.

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Speaker 4: That we Wow, man, that's that's a great song.

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Speaker 9: I wrote that right out of high school. Out of

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Speaker 9: high school, yeah, it was. It was because I was

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Speaker 9: a man child. So it was second year or something,

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Speaker 9: seventy eight or so, seventy eight seventy nine, right in

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Speaker 9: that time.

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Speaker 1: So it was a girl. It was like this one girl.

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Speaker 1: She was like the most.

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Speaker 9: While we were in highigh school, we were really good

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Speaker 9: friends and there's no way I would have ever thought

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Speaker 9: I would have been with her. But when I got

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Speaker 9: out of high school, we we started talking and then

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Speaker 9: we actually started dating.

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Speaker 1: I remember Daryl was like, how how was this even happening?

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Speaker 1: How do you have her?

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Speaker 9: And then I remember we went to go see Brookshields

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Speaker 9: Endless Love when I saw Endless Love together and then

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Speaker 9: something happened, I think before we were going going away

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Speaker 9: in Manchild, all of a sudden she stopped calling me

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Speaker 9: and I couldn't I couldn't reach her, and I don't

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Speaker 9: know what happened, but it was just like we're just

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Speaker 9: like broken up. And then there was no cell phones,

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Speaker 9: there was no good you couldn't reach our on the phone,

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Speaker 9: and no social media. It was just done. And I

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Speaker 9: was really messed up about it. And and that's when

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Speaker 9: I wrote this, you know, because you know that was

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Speaker 9: the time period. It was in the fall, and of

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Speaker 9: a sudden, I was thinking maybe maybe when I come back,

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Speaker 9: maybe maybe it's November, we'll get back together and find it.

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Speaker 1: So that was actually a loss song that was written

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Speaker 1: way back then.

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Speaker 4: And would you have written the words or would.

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Speaker 1: You write the words for piano and wrote it's.

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Speaker 4: Like the piano.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, wow, So.

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Speaker 4: Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music,

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Speaker 4: if you just look at the words like high level.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it was when all the first arrived. You with

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Speaker 9: my lady, we're dating.

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Speaker 4: It was the second reign of Ittom. We shared a feeling.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, come on, that's it's like we start dating and

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Speaker 9: then all of a sudden we like I remember it

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Speaker 9: was raining and like it looks like something's gonna happen here.

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Speaker 4: So that almost really personal. Yeah, exhale was more from

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Speaker 4: watching the movie.

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Speaker 1: Watching the movie.

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Speaker 4: You don't necessarily have to write from personal experience. You can,

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Speaker 4: you can, but you can watch others and.

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Speaker 9: No, yeah, it's really about watching others and how they

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Speaker 9: how they feel and how they imagining having to go

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Speaker 9: through that. I'm always asked, how are you able to

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Speaker 9: write for women? Yeah, and said, if you just kind

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Speaker 9: of think of it and think of whatever they go

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Speaker 9: through and think out how you'd feel, you know, it's

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Speaker 9: not that hard to figure out. Damn, that's fucked up. Yeah,

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Speaker 9: I feel you know, I think all right about that,

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Speaker 9: you know. And as a kid that was always falling

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Speaker 9: in love and thinking I.

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Speaker 4: Was in love, feeling like you.

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Speaker 1: Know, that's what it was.

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Speaker 9: My very first song was about a girl named round

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Speaker 9: the new bould always say her name, and that was

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Speaker 9: in here I Go falling in love again. And the

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Speaker 9: second song that I wrote that I clearly remember was

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Speaker 9: about the same girl, which was two years later, from

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Speaker 9: sixth grade to eighth grade, because she broke my heart,

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Speaker 9: was called the Better Taste of Life. Oh those are

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Speaker 9: feelings that I that I had, and everything was exaggerated.

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Speaker 9: I had written a song called so Shy, So there

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Speaker 9: were pieces, there were be pieces of things of songs

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Speaker 9: that I would write. I wrote a song called Anita,

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Speaker 9: wrote a song called Shelley. One of the best songs

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Speaker 9: I ever wrote was a song called Last Song Forever,

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Speaker 9: which was I wrote that when I was in my

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Speaker 9: senior year. Can never recorded, I think so. I think

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Speaker 9: I let a group record as they turned into a gospel.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember any of it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Could you play a little of it? I don't

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Speaker 1: know what my voice is like right now.

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Speaker 10: When I think Spanish, I remember a special feeling sweet se.

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Speaker 1: Then I think.

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Speaker 10: Spanish show moments. Those were special times. You told me

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Speaker 10: you can.

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Speaker 2: You know when.

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Speaker 10: Blown away?

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Speaker 8: I hope you know why now Mark, I will always

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Speaker 8: I love you for you know man of thinking Libeta song,

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Speaker 8: I God love you then, my dude right now and.

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Speaker 1: That's okay.

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Speaker 4: You can hear all of my conversation with baby Face

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Speaker 4: and the broken record episode that was going to link

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Speaker 4: to in the show notes. There's so much more to it,

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Speaker 4: including how some of his biggest influences were singer songwriters

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Speaker 4: like James Taylor and the Beatles. Coming up after the break,

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Speaker 4: Pushing and producer Ben out of Paffrey tells Lea about

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Speaker 4: writing his own love song.

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Speaker 6: I think that folk music does love songs the best.

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Speaker 3: That star Pushkin, producer and sometimes host of the Last Archive,

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Speaker 3: Ben Natif Haffrey Folker Country.

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Speaker 6: Either one would be my leading contender for the genre

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Speaker 6: that is best at love songs. And I think it's

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Speaker 6: because on some level, like I think like a breakup

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Speaker 6: song or a lost love song is superior to a

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Speaker 6: straight up love song. Me too, because I think, like you,

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Speaker 6: if you're in love, you don't really need a song

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Speaker 6: like you feel this kind of symphonic happiness, Like there's

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Speaker 6: something specific that you're experiencing with another person, Like if

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Speaker 6: you are experiencing lost love or unrequited love, there's something

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Speaker 6: about a particular breakup story or yeah, romance song that

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Speaker 6: like creates a community with you when you maybe feel

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Speaker 6: otherwise alone or bereft. But I think that there's like

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Speaker 6: wistful folk music, wistful country music kind of toes the

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Speaker 6: line between these two things.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, I also think that sad songs might

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Speaker 3: make the best love songs. But the real reason I

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Speaker 3: wanted to talk to Ben is because I learned at

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Speaker 3: our holiday party that he also has a second life

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Speaker 3: as a musician and as a songwriter with the band Ruken.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and this is part of my long con to

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Speaker 6: get interviewed on Broken Record for my music.

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Speaker 2: Well you're class.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: So this is our Valentine's Day special. And I was

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Speaker 3: tipped off by our producer Izzy about a love song

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Speaker 3: that you wrote a couple of years ago, and it

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Speaker 3: actually ended up having sort of like a big impact

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Speaker 3: on your life. So I wanted to ask you about

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Speaker 3: this song if I didn't know you by now, so

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Speaker 3: set the stage for us. How did this song come

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Speaker 3: to be?

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Speaker 7: Well?

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Speaker 6: I wrote this song about like a year after I

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Speaker 6: first moved to Brooklyn. So I was like just out

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Speaker 6: of college and I had moved to Brooklyn and I

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Speaker 6: was living with a bunch of friends in what was,

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Speaker 6: you know, actually quite a nice apartment. I had not

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Speaker 6: made my corner of the apartment particularly nice. I was

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Speaker 6: not having the best time that year, and I had,

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Speaker 6: I think, as an expression of vague despair, just like

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Speaker 6: not really done anything to set it up. I don't

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Speaker 6: remember why this is, but I remember I had like

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Speaker 6: a tarp in the corner of the room. I had

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Speaker 6: a tarp in the corner of the room like a mattress,

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Speaker 6: and then a saw on the wall. Oh my god,

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Speaker 6: I thought it would be like fun to put on

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Speaker 6: my wall, but it looked terrifying, And that was like

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Speaker 6: pretty much it. And I remember distinctly walking into the

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Speaker 6: apartment one time with a good friend of mine from

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Speaker 6: high school, and I had like in my pocket and

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Speaker 6: I like took the change out of my pocket and

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Speaker 6: I threw it in the corner and she was like,

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Speaker 6: why did you just throw your change in the corner?

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Speaker 6: I was like that that is the corner of the

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Speaker 6: apartment where I keep my change. And it was like

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Speaker 6: it was indeed like next to the tarp, like a

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Speaker 6: pile of change. So there were no shades on the window.

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Speaker 6: This is like a crucial thing. I just was like

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Speaker 6: not super taking care of myself, Like everything was totally fine,

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Speaker 6: but my life was not in order. And then I

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Speaker 6: started dating a friend of mine from college. Her name

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Speaker 6: was Julia, and she was living in Nashville at the time,

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Speaker 6: and we sort of like picked back up talking to

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Speaker 6: each other at a distance, and then when she came

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Speaker 6: to New York, we would hang out. And I noticed that, like,

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Speaker 6: as Julie and I had been talking more and started

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Speaker 6: seeing each other in Nashville and also in New York,

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Speaker 6: that slowly I had begun to set up my room.

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Speaker 6: I got shades through the window. I put like they

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Speaker 6: didn't actually fit, but I got like handkerchiefs that extended

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Speaker 6: them to the bottom. I got rid of the tarp.

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Speaker 6: I did, in fact leave the saw on the wall

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Speaker 6: because that was by then a crucial part of the

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Speaker 6: decor and my identity and remains. So I don't remember

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Speaker 6: what I did with the change corner. There's a good

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Speaker 6: chance to change corner sort of remained.

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Speaker 3: The growing up process is a slow one.

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Speaker 6: The growing up process is a slow one, but it began.

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Speaker 6: It began with fixing up that first room. There was

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Speaker 6: a moment I remember where she came and visited. It

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Speaker 6: was early spring, and we had this really wonderful weekend

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Speaker 6: together exploring the city, and she'd grown up in New

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Speaker 6: York and I was kind of new there, and she

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Speaker 6: was shown me around and we went to like a

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Speaker 6: Lebanese church, and I'm Lebanese and it was kind of

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Speaker 6: like a so they just wandered in because they were

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Speaker 6: having like a food festival kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Like.

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Speaker 6: There were a lot of wonderful, serendipitous things. Yeah, And

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Speaker 6: I remember it was after that visit, I think on

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Speaker 6: the day that she had left, but I was hanging

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Speaker 6: out in my room and I was playing guitar and

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Speaker 6: I started writing this song. Like a lot of hack

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Speaker 6: guitar players, I use a lot of open tunings, and

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Speaker 6: around that time I had been playing the Rain Song

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Speaker 6: by led Zeppelin, which is a version of open C tuning,

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Speaker 6: and so I just would like keep my guitar in that,

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Speaker 6: and I remember figuring out the sort of main guitar

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Speaker 6: line and then messing around with the words over it.

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Speaker 6: If I didn't know.

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Speaker 10: You ran.

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Speaker 11: Whatever the plans upon the window falling away, back up

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Speaker 11: my clean clothes with complain you know.

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Speaker 6: When I'm not a professional songwriter. This was a song

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Speaker 6: that like definitely did not come easily to me, but

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Speaker 6: it felt sort of like inspired by that moment and

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Speaker 6: that feeling. It was kind of like a reflection of

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Speaker 6: the fact that I was noticing that my life was changing,

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Speaker 6: and an expression of gratitude to her for bringing me

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Speaker 6: to the place where I wanted to do that.

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Speaker 3: At what point did you realize I'm writing a love

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Speaker 3: song for Julia.

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Speaker 6: I think that that is just what it was. I

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Speaker 6: think it's just because that was sort of where it

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Speaker 6: came from, So I don't think it was a realization ever.

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Speaker 6: It was just kind of that was the feeling it

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Speaker 6: started from.

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Speaker 8: I didn't know you.

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Speaker 6: I didn't know, so yeah, I was in a long

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Speaker 6: distance relationship, both then with Julia because she was living

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Speaker 6: in Nashville, but then also with the lead singer of

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Speaker 6: my band, Adam, who he was in like the UK

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Speaker 6: getting a masters in medieval literature or something, And we

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Speaker 6: were always working on an album in the background, usually

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Speaker 6: as like an escape patch from like one or another

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Speaker 6: job that we didn't want to do, So we were

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Speaker 6: always like kind of trading versions of things. We spent

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Speaker 6: a lot of time basically on every song, just like

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Speaker 6: trying to get it right, recording and rerecording that kind

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Speaker 6: of thing. And I would always share those things with Julia,

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Speaker 6: and she like a joke evolved where she sort of

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Speaker 6: teasingly would be like, is this song about me a

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Speaker 6: thing that I would always like flatly deny. Did she

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Speaker 6: come to shows? And she would like We would always

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Speaker 6: have these long introductions to our songs about Often we

385
00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:49,756
Speaker 6: wrote historical songs like Mark Twain's brother died in a

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Speaker 6: steamship accident, and like there would be a long preamble

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Speaker 6: to the the song about you know, Samuel Clemens's brother

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Speaker 6: who dies in this horrible way, but there would notably

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Speaker 6: be no no preamble or introduction to this song. And

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Speaker 6: so this was the thing I was often mocked about.

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Speaker 6: And it kind of reached ahead when we were like

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Speaker 6: crowdfunding an album that we were doing, which is a

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Speaker 6: fancy way of saying like asking our friends for money,

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Speaker 6: and there was a thing that we offered that was

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Speaker 6: like a handwritten lyrics sheet with the story behind the song.

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Speaker 6: And so Julia bought that it requested a lyric sheet

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Speaker 6: with the story behind the song for this song, which

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Speaker 6: as a way of like cornering me into having to

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Speaker 6: admit the provenance of the song. And I did not

400
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Speaker 6: fulfill that lyric sheet for like quite a while, and

401
00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:45,156
Speaker 6: it wasn't until again sort of as like a joke

402
00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:48,916
Speaker 6: in return, But it wasn't until we got engaged that

403
00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:51,436
Speaker 6: I then did actually deliver the lyrics sheet with the

404
00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:54,316
Speaker 6: story as a kind of like, you know, obviously this

405
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:55,276
Speaker 6: is a song about you.

406
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Speaker 7: In the way I feel about you, seen.

407
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Speaker 8: How you have fats it out.

408
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Speaker 3: If I don't know you, do you have a favorite

409
00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:23,916
Speaker 3: part of the song.

410
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Speaker 6: I always love everything. Adam writes, he like wrote the

411
00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:30,476
Speaker 6: last verse that I think kind of like takes it

412
00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:33,476
Speaker 6: to a totally different place. It gets like a lot

413
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Speaker 6: darker right at the end, in a way that I

414
00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:42,996
Speaker 6: wouldn't have done, but think it gives a lot of hafts.

415
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Speaker 8: Put back in, Alix.

416
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Speaker 11: And want to have.

417
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Speaker 10: With you.

418
00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:56,316
Speaker 11: Still you haven't closed.

419
00:22:55,756 --> 00:23:01,276
Speaker 12: All the dogs to the night still feels good, and

420
00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:04,156
Speaker 12: lean mind into your side.

421
00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:12,356
Speaker 8: Come to me the first snow.

422
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Speaker 12: Then when that sound, Yeah, that was so Na you said,

423
00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:23,516
Speaker 12: all right, canv me back?

424
00:23:31,916 --> 00:23:32,076
Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Ben, thanks for having me.

426
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Speaker 6: This was fun, Happy Valentine's Day.

427
00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:44,676
Speaker 3: Such a beautiful song. Again, that's if I didn't know

428
00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:47,676
Speaker 3: you by now by Ruken. I'm not sure if Ben's

429
00:23:47,716 --> 00:23:50,356
Speaker 3: going to convince Justin that folk is the best genre

430
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Speaker 3: for love songs. But in a minute, Malcolm Gladwell wais

431
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,236
Speaker 3: in and he gets us thinking about this question in

432
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Speaker 3: an entirely different way.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think country music does good love songs.

434
00:24:19,156 --> 00:24:23,516
Speaker 5: I think it does good breakup songs, heartbreak songs. It

435
00:24:23,516 --> 00:24:24,396
Speaker 5: does the reverse.

436
00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:27,596
Speaker 4: Malcolm Gladwell is a best selling author, the host of

437
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Speaker 4: Revisionist History, and Pushkin's resident country music aficionado. When I

438
00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,556
Speaker 4: heard we were doing a Valentine's Day music episode, I

439
00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:36,396
Speaker 4: knew we were going to have to get his take.

440
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Speaker 5: So country music, it's true, which is consistent with its

441
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:44,436
Speaker 5: role in American popular culture. It is the downer to

442
00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:49,236
Speaker 5: rock music's upper right. Rock music and I did a

443
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Speaker 5: whole Revision's History episode on this. It was, you know,

444
00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,116
Speaker 5: the striking thing about rock music is the inability of

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Speaker 5: rock musicians to write effective sad songs. The sad songs

446
00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:04,916
Speaker 5: are terrible. They're just not sad, right, They're not believably sad.

447
00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:08,636
Speaker 5: They're rock and roll songs that are kind of you know,

448
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:09,916
Speaker 5: try to pretend to.

449
00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:10,836
Speaker 2: Like.

450
00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:14,516
Speaker 5: I gave the example of Wild Horses, which is supposed

451
00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:18,356
Speaker 5: to be a sad song. It's not sad. What's sad

452
00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:18,836
Speaker 5: about it?

453
00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 2: And also it's like total.

454
00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:26,436
Speaker 5: It's also banal and like wild wild Horses, Like what

455
00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,956
Speaker 5: is going on? I mean, it's just like it doesn't work. Country, though,

456
00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:38,596
Speaker 5: is totally comfortable in that kind of emotional morass. That's

457
00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:41,476
Speaker 5: the whole It's depressive music, that's the whole point. It's

458
00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:44,996
Speaker 5: the South. It's like white guys who lost the Civil

459
00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,836
Speaker 5: War never got over it. That's what it is.

460
00:25:48,636 --> 00:25:48,836
Speaker 7: You know.

461
00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:51,516
Speaker 5: I was talking to some guy yesterday about the Church

462
00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 5: of Christ, which is an almost overwhelmingly Southern denomination of

463
00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:03,476
Speaker 5: Christian denomination, and Nashville is the heart of Church of Christ.

464
00:26:04,156 --> 00:26:06,876
Speaker 5: The music in the Church of Christ churches is insane.

465
00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:11,036
Speaker 5: The Church of Christ is famously has no orchestral music.

466
00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:13,436
Speaker 5: They God, No, it's all a cappella, which is way

467
00:26:13,476 --> 00:26:16,556
Speaker 5: more demanding. The Church of Christ. It is not a

468
00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:20,876
Speaker 5: happy denomination. It's not Pentecostals jumping up and down and

469
00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:25,676
Speaker 5: welcoming the risen Lord. No, it's like it's like white

470
00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:29,316
Speaker 5: Southerators bemoaning the laws of their status and like be

471
00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:32,556
Speaker 5: bowing their head in the face of avengeful God, and

472
00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:36,276
Speaker 5: no piano to no piano to lift their spirits. No organ,

473
00:26:36,356 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 5: no piano, no nothing. Use your own voice, dammit. Which

474
00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:42,556
Speaker 5: is why, by the way, so many country singers come

475
00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:45,396
Speaker 5: for the Church of Christ. Amy Grant is Church of Christ.

476
00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:47,516
Speaker 5: Merle Haggard is Church of Christ. I could go on

477
00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:49,636
Speaker 5: and on. Listen if you look it up. Is insane.

478
00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:51,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at this church. I'm like, this isn't

479
00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:52,516
Speaker 2: Roy Orbison.

480
00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:54,036
Speaker 5: They're all Church of Christ.

481
00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:58,116
Speaker 4: They're all Church of Christ, Loretta Lynn Woody Guthrie.

482
00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:00,996
Speaker 5: So, like, is it any surprise the country music which

483
00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:03,396
Speaker 5: comes from Nashville, the epicenter of the Church of Christ

484
00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:06,676
Speaker 5: is like the least happy music known to man. No,

485
00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:08,476
Speaker 5: it's like it's like depressive.

486
00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:12,556
Speaker 4: So stands the reason then that, like in the in

487
00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:15,156
Speaker 4: the continuum of you know, when it comes to love

488
00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:18,196
Speaker 4: songs and the continuum of of sort of emotions that

489
00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:20,996
Speaker 4: go along with love, country music would fall more on

490
00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:24,396
Speaker 4: the side of sad over a breakup, sad over a

491
00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:27,596
Speaker 4: unrequited love, sad because I'm in a marriage I don't

492
00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:28,916
Speaker 4: want to be in but I'm still in love with

493
00:27:28,956 --> 00:27:31,236
Speaker 4: my high school sweetheart, or whatever, you know, whatever those

494
00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:34,636
Speaker 4: songs are that these sad kind of love's not going

495
00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:35,876
Speaker 4: right or breaking up.

496
00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:39,756
Speaker 5: One of my favorite country songs about heartbreak is I

497
00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:43,356
Speaker 5: think it's George Straight does fort Worth Ever Cross Your Mind?

498
00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 5: Which is a classic. I mean, you can't if we're

499
00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:50,476
Speaker 5: going to talk about country music and sad songs, we're

500
00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 5: starting with George Strait now, okay, So I'm gonna read

501
00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:56,796
Speaker 5: to you some lyrics to does Fortworth Ever Cross Your Mind?

502
00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:00,436
Speaker 5: This is the opening Stanza Cold fort Worth Beer is

503
00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:03,236
Speaker 5: how it begins. Just ain't no good for jealous. I've

504
00:28:03,236 --> 00:28:06,236
Speaker 5: tried it night after night you're in someone else's arms

505
00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,516
Speaker 5: in Dallas. Does fort Worth ever cross mind?

506
00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:10,916
Speaker 1: Darling?

507
00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,356
Speaker 5: While you're busy burning bridges, burn one for me if

508
00:28:13,356 --> 00:28:13,956
Speaker 5: you get time.

509
00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:24,956
Speaker 13: If you get time, there's no orange. Don't fake so

510
00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:35,436
Speaker 13: weasy word rausm.

511
00:28:35,556 --> 00:28:38,876
Speaker 5: What's hilarious about this is this song is all about

512
00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:42,836
Speaker 5: parsing the cultural distinction between fort Worth and Dallas, which

513
00:28:43,516 --> 00:28:47,316
Speaker 5: looms large in the in the minds of people from

514
00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:50,516
Speaker 5: Texas and the rest of us are like what this

515
00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:53,116
Speaker 5: song makes no sense to anyone who's not from Texas.

516
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:55,756
Speaker 5: I want to give you a You left me here

517
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:59,236
Speaker 5: to be with him in Dallas, and I know it

518
00:28:59,316 --> 00:29:02,476
Speaker 5: hurts you at the time. Well, I wonder now if

519
00:29:02,516 --> 00:29:07,916
Speaker 5: it makes a difference. That's for worth across your minds.

520
00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:11,676
Speaker 5: It's twenty miles away. It's a whole song. It's a

521
00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:14,916
Speaker 5: whole song about a stretch of interstate. It's just so fantastic.

522
00:29:15,276 --> 00:29:17,076
Speaker 5: This is what's so hilarious about it.

523
00:29:17,076 --> 00:29:19,236
Speaker 2: It is like so petty, it's.

524
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:22,036
Speaker 5: So petty and so but like, this is why rock

525
00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 5: and roll can't do a breakup song, Because a breakup

526
00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:31,756
Speaker 5: song requires a certain level of emotional and narrative specificity,

527
00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:36,196
Speaker 5: and rock and roll is too obsessed with being universal.

528
00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:38,476
Speaker 4: Yeah, not enough in the details.

529
00:29:38,596 --> 00:29:39,516
Speaker 2: No details.

530
00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:42,876
Speaker 5: Did Prince ever write a song about? Did Saint Paul

531
00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:44,036
Speaker 5: ever cross your mind?

532
00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:44,716
Speaker 1: No?

533
00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:48,556
Speaker 5: No, no, because that's not the business he's in. He's

534
00:29:48,596 --> 00:29:51,756
Speaker 5: not in the business of mode of evoking this kind

535
00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:56,276
Speaker 5: of strong emotion. He was aware of the distinction between

536
00:29:56,316 --> 00:30:00,316
Speaker 5: Minneapolis and Saint Paul, but chose chose to overlook it

537
00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:04,636
Speaker 5: in his songwriting. That's why he's a rock musician or

538
00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:07,916
Speaker 5: a R and B musician. I'm not a country musician.

539
00:30:08,356 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 4: So so he's saying that you left me to be

540
00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:13,716
Speaker 4: with him, and he's saying Dallas with the level of this,

541
00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:14,476
Speaker 4: I mean, that's.

542
00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 5: A you want to have to understand a song. Here

543
00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:21,916
Speaker 5: the reason why it's not Does Dallas ever crossed your mind?

544
00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:23,356
Speaker 5: That's a wholly different song.

545
00:30:23,796 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 1: Yeah.

546
00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:28,756
Speaker 5: Yeah, that fort Worth is the is the ugly stepsister.

547
00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:33,236
Speaker 5: Fort Worth is one step down the wrung. So she

548
00:30:33,436 --> 00:30:36,756
Speaker 5: left him to upgrade and move up. Yeah, that's why

549
00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:39,596
Speaker 5: it hurts. She left him for for a dude in

550
00:30:39,636 --> 00:30:41,556
Speaker 5: fort Worth. He's fine, he's moved on. He's not a

551
00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:44,276
Speaker 5: girl in Dallas. No, no, no, no, no, no. He's at

552
00:30:44,316 --> 00:30:46,596
Speaker 5: fort Worth and what does she do? Got up one morning,

553
00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:50,596
Speaker 5: drove down the interstate and upgraded her situation, Lee, leaving

554
00:30:50,676 --> 00:30:54,116
Speaker 5: him in a pile of tears in fort Worth.

555
00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:56,636
Speaker 4: But you see, this is why, and you know I

556
00:30:56,716 --> 00:30:58,396
Speaker 4: want to talking to Leah. This is why I think

557
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:01,196
Speaker 4: R and B is the greatest genre for loves on.

558
00:31:01,356 --> 00:31:02,996
Speaker 4: I don't ever want to be the guy in Fort

559
00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:07,476
Speaker 4: Worth finding about the woman who left me to upgrade

560
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:08,436
Speaker 4: to go to Dallas.

561
00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:09,476
Speaker 2: Like that's why.

562
00:31:09,516 --> 00:31:12,116
Speaker 4: Like like Whitney Houston, like you know, in her song she

563
00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:14,796
Speaker 4: catches like the guide cheating and she says it's not right,

564
00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:15,476
Speaker 4: but it's okay.

565
00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:16,636
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make it anyway, like I.

566
00:31:16,836 --> 00:31:20,156
Speaker 4: Want, I wanna you left me fine, I'm not gonna wallow.

567
00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:23,756
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna move on with my life, bigger, better things,

568
00:31:23,796 --> 00:31:25,156
Speaker 4: like that's what I want to live.

569
00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:27,716
Speaker 5: No, No, it's you're just what you're just identifying is

570
00:31:27,756 --> 00:31:32,676
Speaker 5: that she's made stronger stuff. That's what that's about. And

571
00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:38,356
Speaker 5: some of this is like, is bethos somebody pronouncing that right?

572
00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:43,596
Speaker 5: Bethosathos pathos, pathos are pathos. I think bethos is the

573
00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:44,156
Speaker 5: word I want.

574
00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:45,516
Speaker 2: Bethos b A T H.

575
00:31:45,916 --> 00:31:50,596
Speaker 5: Bethos definition. Yeah, anti climax created by an unintentional lapse

576
00:31:50,636 --> 00:31:53,796
Speaker 5: in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous. Like,

577
00:31:53,836 --> 00:31:56,556
Speaker 5: that's what does foot worth across your mind?

578
00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 7: Is?

579
00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:57,956
Speaker 5: Is Bethos right?

580
00:31:58,036 --> 00:31:58,756
Speaker 1: That's what that is?

581
00:31:58,876 --> 00:32:01,236
Speaker 5: Right, that's the that's the appeal, that's the appeal of

582
00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:02,956
Speaker 5: the of the song.

583
00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:04,516
Speaker 2: Is it is?

584
00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:04,676
Speaker 1: So?

585
00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:07,956
Speaker 4: I mean, is there a hope for the country music family?

586
00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:09,996
Speaker 4: Like you know, I guess there are country music songs

587
00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:12,356
Speaker 4: explicitly about love. They is not as good. They're just

588
00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 4: not They're not the A tier country music songs, right.

589
00:32:16,236 --> 00:32:18,396
Speaker 4: I mean there's like Forever and Ever aighty man Randy

590
00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:19,956
Speaker 4: Travis people played at their wedding and there.

591
00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:22,236
Speaker 5: But that's a song. But think about that song the

592
00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:25,396
Speaker 5: way he sings it. He sings it like it's a

593
00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:30,476
Speaker 5: sad song. I'm going to love you forever and ever.

594
00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:32,356
Speaker 2: It's very wistful.

595
00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:35,756
Speaker 5: Forever and Ever. It sounds like he's committing to a

596
00:32:35,796 --> 00:32:38,236
Speaker 5: prison sense. Ah man, Like.

597
00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:41,756
Speaker 4: What does it say about you, Malcolm that when you're

598
00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:45,716
Speaker 4: asked to think what genre might be the greatest for

599
00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:47,956
Speaker 4: love songs?

600
00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:49,516
Speaker 2: The breakup song.

601
00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:54,516
Speaker 5: I Want some I had a friend named Mike and

602
00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 5: he didn't know me very well, and we decided to

603
00:32:56,916 --> 00:32:59,676
Speaker 5: go to a ballgame together. This is in the eighties,

604
00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:03,756
Speaker 5: and we drove from Washington See to Baltimore to see

605
00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:07,796
Speaker 5: the Orioles and I played some mixtapes in a car

606
00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:13,156
Speaker 5: and end he turned to me and he said, I

607
00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:16,796
Speaker 5: had no idea how depressed you are, because every single

608
00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:19,436
Speaker 5: song on the mixtape was a song about some kind

609
00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:24,836
Speaker 5: of broken heart, suffering, sadness, death. I don't know that's

610
00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:26,036
Speaker 5: what I wanted a song.

611
00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:29,516
Speaker 4: But there is no part of being around you that

612
00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:32,756
Speaker 4: feelsmird in sadness, depressed.

613
00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:33,516
Speaker 1: No, but I don't.

614
00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:35,156
Speaker 5: I don't want to. I don't like upbeat song So

615
00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:37,276
Speaker 5: why it's my problem with rock and roll is just

616
00:33:37,676 --> 00:33:41,516
Speaker 5: like just calm down already, like just this, Can we

617
00:33:41,716 --> 00:33:44,356
Speaker 5: wallow in our emotions for a moment here and not

618
00:33:44,516 --> 00:33:47,076
Speaker 5: just beating your head against the wall in necstasy. It

619
00:33:47,236 --> 00:33:49,556
Speaker 5: just it strikes me as unseemly.

620
00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:59,516
Speaker 4: Leah, I mean several points well taken from Malcolm.

621
00:34:00,556 --> 00:34:03,716
Speaker 2: You know, I love country music dearly.

622
00:34:04,436 --> 00:34:08,156
Speaker 4: I think songwriting is impeccable, and they certainly do a

623
00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:11,996
Speaker 4: love song in a setnd song incredibly well. But you know,

624
00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:14,836
Speaker 4: I just I guess I just I just like a

625
00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:18,156
Speaker 4: more happy song. I like a mom Just no, No,

626
00:34:18,156 --> 00:34:19,636
Speaker 4: I don't know if I can live like in that

627
00:34:19,756 --> 00:34:20,676
Speaker 4: kind of misery.

628
00:34:21,076 --> 00:34:22,956
Speaker 3: I think it's so funny. I mean, you know that

629
00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:25,956
Speaker 3: I love a sad song over a happy song, and

630
00:34:25,996 --> 00:34:30,356
Speaker 3: I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy

631
00:34:30,396 --> 00:34:32,116
Speaker 3: over the moon love song any day.

632
00:34:32,716 --> 00:34:35,196
Speaker 4: Well, Leah, you know, I feel like we're back to

633
00:34:35,196 --> 00:34:37,756
Speaker 4: where we started, which is you know, I mean, You're

634
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:42,196
Speaker 4: probably right. Look, the whole idea of genre is and

635
00:34:42,436 --> 00:34:45,956
Speaker 4: it's a it's a man made creation, and there's probably

636
00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:51,436
Speaker 4: no way to categorize what sort of genre and what

637
00:34:51,556 --> 00:34:54,276
Speaker 4: culture does the love song the best.

638
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:55,796
Speaker 3: It's just so subjective.

639
00:34:55,916 --> 00:34:59,476
Speaker 4: It's so totally subjective, and you know it's for me

640
00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:02,716
Speaker 4: based on my personal experiences still R and B. I mean,

641
00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:06,516
Speaker 4: I think I'm even further to entrenched in my position

642
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:10,716
Speaker 4: now at this point. But you know, I love that

643
00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:13,196
Speaker 4: Malcolm and Ben both have their strong feelings, and I

644
00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:16,876
Speaker 4: love that your ever sort of noncommittalness around any of that.

645
00:35:17,036 --> 00:35:19,516
Speaker 3: Yes, I know, I'm just going to keep it open.

646
00:35:20,076 --> 00:35:23,636
Speaker 3: I'm keeping it open for new experiences, and I'm going

647
00:35:23,716 --> 00:35:25,996
Speaker 3: to sit here and I'm going to celebrate Valentine's Day

648
00:35:25,996 --> 00:35:27,676
Speaker 3: by listening to songs that make me cry.

649
00:35:27,876 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 2: Well you know, no, no, no, celebrate Valentine's Day. I

650
00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:34,076
Speaker 2: made a great playlist love songs. Listen to that.

651
00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:37,396
Speaker 4: We'll put that in the show notes, and listen to that,

652
00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:38,356
Speaker 4: not the sad songs.

653
00:35:38,396 --> 00:35:38,716
Speaker 1: Please.

654
00:35:39,116 --> 00:35:39,356
Speaker 2: Wait.

655
00:35:39,396 --> 00:35:41,756
Speaker 3: I just saved a playlist, and this is real. I

656
00:35:41,836 --> 00:35:44,996
Speaker 3: just saved a playlist from Spotify called Classics for Crying,

657
00:35:45,996 --> 00:35:47,356
Speaker 3: So I'm getting that cute up.

658
00:35:51,036 --> 00:35:54,676
Speaker 4: This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter and edited by

659
00:35:54,836 --> 00:35:55,516
Speaker 4: Sarah Nix.

660
00:35:55,796 --> 00:35:57,516
Speaker 2: Our mix engineer is Sarah Bruguier.

661
00:35:58,116 --> 00:36:03,596
Speaker 3: Special thanks to ben Atahoffrey, Malcolm Gladwell, Costanza, Guyardo, Owen Miller,

662
00:36:03,756 --> 00:36:04,836
Speaker 3: and Eric Sandler.

663
00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:07,636
Speaker 4: I'm your host, Justin Richmond, and I'm Leah Rose.

664
00:36:08,076 --> 00:36:09,116
Speaker 3: Happy Valentine's Day.

665
00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:16,276
Speaker 8: Eh Yeah