WEBVTT - Thursday Therapy: Flipping the Script on Trauma 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.399 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:09.600 This week's Thursday Therapy, we have Karina Killcoin. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:10.040 So. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.520 She is a former trial lawyer who specialized in criminal defense, 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.680 including a complex white collar and civil litigation, but now 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.880 she passionately shares her own personal story of trauma and healing. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.720 She's got a book out called Rise Above, the story 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.840 Free yourself from past trauma and create the life you want. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:28.520 Let's get her on. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.280 Hi, Hey, Karna, how are you. I'm good, Thank you, 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.559 how are you great? We're excited to have you on. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.239 We were reading your bio before you came on. I 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.920 was like, oh, like, man, there's just like heavy, heavy, heavy, 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.320 and then obviously your book. I love what you're doing 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.360 now using your past trauma to now create the life 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.800 that you want. And you know you wrote this book, 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.520 and so what we'll to start with, can you fill 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.560 in our audience kind of the cliff notes of your upbringing, 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:05.520 because it's it's a lot. It's heavy, Yeah, it is. 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:10.919 So when I was about twelve, my father got sentenced 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:17.040 to the federal penitentiary and he left behind me and 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.360 my two younger siblings and my mother, who suffered some 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:26.640 from some mental health issues, including depression, anxiety, and manic episodes. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.399 And she didn't handle the stress and the pressure very 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.400 well of you know, being left with the kids and responsibility. 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.919 So she and I shifted roles and I started caring 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.880 for her. And we lived in a poverty stricken situation 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.560 after my father was gone, and I really had to 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.880 do a lot to survive, and that included, you know, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.760 scraunging up change to buy food and asking strangers for 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.040 money to help buy food and pay bills, and we 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.720 would go without hot water and electricity. And I was, 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.440 you know, hell bent on escape, right to get away 0:01:58.440 --> 0:01:59.840 from where I was. And when I was twenty four, 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:03.520 I graduate law school. Also at that same age, my 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.080 mother died of cancer. And by then she had had 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.000 my last brother, and he was only nine at the time, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.680 so I adopted him and went on to raise him. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.000 What kind of cancer did your mom have? Cervical? 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:21.360 Were you guys by that time? What was y'all's relationship like? 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.320 It wasn't It wasn't healed or repaired in any stretch 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.600 of the imagination. And I was really the one left 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.480 to take care of her. So even on you know, 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:38.960 her deathbed, it was me caring for her and we had, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.880 you know, hospice come in. But she passed away in 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:47.360 my childhood bed, and there was a lot of unresolved issues, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.520 especially on my end, that she wasn't really willing to 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.040 talk about even then, and it took me a long time, 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.560 you know, decades after she left for me to really 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.000 find forgiveness for her. 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.520 Well, you know, we talk a lot on this podcast 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.200 about our parents and we're all in our forties. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:07.840 Well almost, sorry, kat, you got one month. 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:09.440 So I'm just gonna say, we're all in our forties, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.519 and it's it's one thing where it's we've had challenging times, 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:20.760 especially with our moms, where we want them to kind 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.000 of see us and understand, but it's, I don't know, 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.880 it's almost like they don't they didn't do the work 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.480 maybe that or that we've done. So it's hard for 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.920 us to see and be on the same page. So 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.240 how do you go? Okay, I didn't get to say 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:39.200 these things to my mom, but I'm gonna do differently, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:40.320 Like do you have kids? 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:42.520 You have a fur baby? 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.440 I have a fur baby, I have the brother that 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.680 I raised, and my husband has children. So I've been 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.360 I've known him a long time and I've been involved 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.280 in raising them, so I understand that you know the 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.120 mother component. And I will tell you that I think 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.080 some of this you know is generational, right. I think 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:03.560 you know, at some point, you know my mother, you know, 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:06.000 she was in this generation where you didn't process and 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:07.680 you didn't talk about and there was a lot of 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.600 shame about things. So I don't think that they knew 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:12.240 then what we know now, and I don't think that 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.840 they were as in tune to mental health and healing. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:17.839 So I think that's one that's one thing. And I 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.240 would also say that my forgiveness for my mother came 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.919 with age and perspective, but it also came when I 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.000 found compassion for her and I understood her story. So 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:30.560 you know, I write a lot in the book about 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:35.159 this idea of multi generational transfer of trauma, right, And 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.840 so when I understood my mother's story that my mother 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.560 was never mothered. My mother's mother abandoned her and she 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.240 was a baby, she didn't know her mother, and her 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.240 father was an alcoholic, and she was raised until she 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.880 was twelve by her grandmother, who spoke no English. So 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.640 my mother had her own story and she didn't rise 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.760 above it. So for me to find forgiveness for her, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.040 it took me finding compassion and empathy for her and 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.719 understanding that she too had a story. And so for me, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.159 you know where does it stop? Well, I decided to 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.760 stop this multi generational transfer trauma because you know, when 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.960 I understand where I came from and I understand those 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.039 my people's stories, you know, I choose differently. I choose 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.120 self awareness. I choose self compassion. I choose you know, 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.359 reasoning and judgment and understanding what I had been through. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.279 On one hand, rights as these are the facts of 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.200 what I've been through, but then also giving myself some 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:37.040 compassion for how I handled it right and lifting myself 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.400 up out of the shame of you know, what I 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.960 did wasn't shameful as a child asking people for money. 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.960 For a long time, I thought that was so shameful, right, 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.120 And now I have this compassion for myself, and that's 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.760 what really what I tried to teach and be an 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.840 example of to the children that I've been blessed to mother. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.359 Do you feel like you kind of default back into 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.600 that like survival? I mean, when you're raised with that 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.800 kind of setting, the resilience level that you have is 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.880 like astronomical, and so we I would I share some 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.400 parts of your story a little bit, not nearly to 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.960 the degree, but I wasn't able to say my dad 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:21.920 and I never had the reckoning before he passed away. 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:23.479 I don't think that he would ever be able to 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.080 on this side hear what I have to say, truly. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.839 But I wonder do you find yourself, I know, the 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:34.479 hard rewiring, like that deep detangling of how you handle 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.360 and like at rest, do you still feel that like 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.680 in survival flight or fight or do you feel like 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.800 you've kind of gotten that settled into like a piece 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.520 of Is there a sense of calmness now or do 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:46.680 you default back to that. 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.760 I definitely feel a sense of calmness now. But it 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.720 took me a long time. It took me years and 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.640 years of healing. And I call it a journey of 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.720 healing because that's exactly what it was. You know, it 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.120 was like two steps forward and one step back, or 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.360 one step forward two steps back because of what you're 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.240 talking about right when you're a child of trauma in 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.720 that way. And there's actually a really powerful quote and 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.400 one of the books that I cite in my book 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.880 Rise Above the Story, it's a Bruce Perry quote and 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.920 he says that children who are raised in these situations 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.080 are quote incubated in terror. Right. So it's like your 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.440 brain when you're that young doesn't understand what's happening. Your 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.000 full brain doesn't develop till you're in your twenties, right, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.160 your mid twenties. And I talk a lot about the 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.280 science of healing in my book, and I distill a 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.160 lot of this complex brain science into one chapter in 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.320 the book because it was for me where I shifted 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.960 into healing is when I understood how my brain worked. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.880 So to your question about you know, what do I 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.120 do and what is my default? My default is now 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.280 it is not fight or flight forever. For a long time, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.640 for my whole life before this healing, it was for 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.000 sure the default. I even write about that in the book, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.320 and I called it chicken Little mode, where I would 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.280 go around thinking that everything was bad, something bad was 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:06.960 going to happen, this guy was going to fall, everything 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.400 was not good. And it took me a long time 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.200 to get out of that mode. And that's all about 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.760 resetting and understanding and developing this self awareness of what 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.480 your brain is doing, but also for me, it was 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:26.480 like an entire physical, spiritual mental healing. And that's you know, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.800 all the things that I include in the book, which 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.440 are you know, all the practices I tried, and the 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.320 meditations I did, and the journaling I did, and the 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:38.160 different modalities of therapy I tried. Right, So it has 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.480 been a long road, but I want people to know 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.160 this who are listening, Like, it is possible to reset 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.480 your default setting? It absolutely is. 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.319 So have you ever heard of Sarah set? 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:02.599 No? 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.880 Okay, So I'm doing it next week. So I've had 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.640 some past PTSD stuff where it keeps coming up in 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.280 therapy right where my response goes to the fight or flight. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.560 My therapist, you know, we've done the EMDR, we've done 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:16.120 all the things, and she's like, I really want you 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:16.920 to try Sarah set. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:18.640 So I'm starting. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.520 It was supposed to be when the whole winter snowstorm 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.679 thing happened, but I had to reschedule to the following week. 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:26.400 So basically what it is is you go there and 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.920 it's all about resetting your nervous system right in your brain. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.640 So it's like your brain can't change unless your brain 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.120 sees itself. So it's you go there, it's every day 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.120 for four days and then you go back. I think 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.200 it's like two weeks after that. But you listen to 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.040 these like waves and they put these things on your 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.559 head essentially, and then your brain sees what the brain 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.480 kind of needs to change. And it's this whole like 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.839 science for changing your brain and helping you know, anxiety 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.760 or depression or those things that where there's a blockage 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.680 in your in your brain. It's like you can't change 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.800 the brain unless your brain sees what's the problem in 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.800 So interest heard of that, But yeah, I'm like I'm 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.199 at this moment, I'll do anything. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.200 You know what I mean, and like like block me 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:09.960 up in something and. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.600 Me too, and and thank you for telling me, because 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.840 I do love to go and try all these things. 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:15.440 Sorry. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.520 Uses brain initiated sound to relax the brain and allow 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.920 it to reset, restore harmony, and free the mind from 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:25.240 a freeze or fight or flight state. So yeah, anyways, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:25.680 go ahead. 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:27.640 Well yeah, I mean it's interesting. It's kind of kind 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.439 of taken like like old school like sound therapy, right 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.400 and all this stuff, and like applying in a different way, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.280 which is what I was, which was what my point 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.000 was going to be is that I love that there's 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:40.640 this evolution right of trauma therapy that comes from some 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.559 of these old, you know, merited, you know, old school 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.040 kind of modalities, and then they just kind of keep 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.120 adding on and building on and trying them. And that's 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.840 one of the things that I really talk about in 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.439 the book and I really believe in, is having the 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.079 courage to try things. I feel like healing is kind 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.520 of like a dim sum menu, right, It doesn't have 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.560 to just traditional therapy. It can be a traditional therapy 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.360 for sure has value, but it's also other can be 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.880 other things, and I just think that, you know, having 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.240 the courage to sometimes try those other modalities can be 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:13.240 really helpful. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.680 Well, I was going to ask, so, now that you 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.839 say that you're essentially in a healed spot, do you 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.720 still deal with the trauma of you know, in therapy 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.920 or do you feel like you're kind of past dealing 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.079 with that trauma, like you've kind of gotten past it? 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.320 Or is that something that you think that you'll always 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.560 have to kind of deal with because I know, Danna, 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.920 like you said, you feel like you can't get past it. 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:39.679 Is it something you ever get past? 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.000 Or are you always kind of dealing with that trauma, 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.080 even if you feel like you've gotten to a healed spot. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:46.880 Does that make sense? 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:47.280 Oh? 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.280 Absolutely, And I wouldn't say that I feel that I'm 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.199 in a healed spot. I feel like I'm in a 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.360 healing spot. And I and I recognize that because there 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:02.000 are there are always always You can look at them 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.240 as setbacks or you could look at them as opportunities 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:10.480 to learn more about yourself and uncover another layer. And 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.600 so I would say that for me, there is this 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.600 sense of, you know, most days I feel really good, 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.120 and yes, do I think about those past memories. Of 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.840 course they still pop up, but I find what happens 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.040 for me is is that they don't have the emotional 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.720 charge that they used to. But then I do find 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.320 that there are triggers, right, and also this idea of 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.080 again the self awareness of being aware of typically what 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.960 my triggers are. You know, I still have triggers around 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.680 the sense of like abandonment, right. That was a huge 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.520 story for me in my youth right and all the 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.640 way up until like my early twenties. So you know, 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.960 like when you have these triggers, being aware of what 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.040 they are and backing out of a situation for me 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.000 is kind of what works and processing the feeling and 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.760 understanding where it's coming from, and that yes, I still 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.320 I still go to therapy, and when I do, I 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.000 have a log of what's been bothering me. Right, I'm 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.680 a big proponent of therapy, and I'm a big proponent 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.440 of working your therapy. Right, there's none of this like 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.640 I mean, I'm sure your experience experiences too. Like you 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.080 don't just go in and like then they tell you 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.280 and then you go, oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense. 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.719 I feel good. It's like you are actually healing yourself 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.640 and they are guiding you or offering you something. So 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.720 I'm a big proponent of going into therapy and being 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.600 very honest about what has been going on with me 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.400 and talking through that and then you know, waiting for maybe. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:42.880 Like some insight. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.480 But I go in prepared and I leave knowing that 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.080 I still have work to do when I leave that office. 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.720 What are some of your biggest tips in the book, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:57.160 maybe around abandonment or past trauma that people that are 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.120 listening can go, oh, I really want to you know, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.240 know more about that and dig it more into that 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:03.480 tip that you give. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.400 So the book is really a guidebook, right. I wrote 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.040 it because I wrote it in the way I wrote 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.720 it because I felt so overwhelmed at the thought of healing, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:15.480 and I didn't know where to start. And I was 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.120 a grown adult with a successful career, and I didn't 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:20.640 know what to do or where to go or how 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.560 to start. So what I wanted to do in this 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.800 book was create a guidebook. And I broke down really 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.920 what I think these tips are talking about into like 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.160 a three step formula, and that is really like understanding. 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.760 The first one is acknowledging your trauma and the story 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.360 that you've written about yourself because of it. And two 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.600 is the second step is releasing releasing your story. And 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.520 this was like so deep for me, this level of healing, 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.760 because it involved so much. It was like all of 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.520 my old childhood stuff, all that inner child angst I 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.360 had in rage and resentment and anger that I was 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.640 never allowed to express as a child. So it was 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.480 a lot of that. And it was the forgiveness component, right, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:11.000 this idea of like forgiving others, which is really really hard, 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:15.560 but also forgiving myself because if you're a trauma survivor, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.520 I mean kind of the default of that is, we 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.120 somehow blame ourselves for things that happen. I did that, 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.320 I know for sure, and so I really get into 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.520 some really good ways of how to do that and 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.440 finding you know, connection back with that inner child and 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.280 like really understanding We talked about this earlier, this compassion 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.600 idea too, about like who you're trying to forgive. And 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.440 then the last step is releasing the story. And that's 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.560 all about flipping the script on your story, you know, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.000 finding some kind of gratitude or a silver lining in 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.000 what happened, which then dovetailed so perfectly for me into 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.040 finding real self love. I mean, if you come from 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.360 a childhood of trauma like I did, and like a 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.520 lot of people out there listening, you're not You're not 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.240 incubated and unconditional love. You don't know what that is. 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.600 You're not you're not nurtured in self esteem or self confidence. 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.320 So figuring out how to get on that path of 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:19.120 really understanding how to love yourself and what that means 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.120 is you know, a big, a big, a big part 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:22.640 of healing. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.000 Can I ask, and I don't know if you talk 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.320 about this in the book or not, but do you 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.320 touch on your relationship with your dad in the book. 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.160 Yes, well, I talk a lot about my reason. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:35.120 Is he still with us? 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:36.760 He is? 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:37.600 Is he still in jail? 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.840 No? Okay, have you guys been able to talk or 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.240 is there a relationship there? 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.480 There? We had a moment after my mother died where 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:54.760 we had some conversation about the past, and I've explained 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.800 how I felt and I saw him. It was interesting, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.880 I had it was easier for me to find compassion 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.200 and forgiveness for my father than it was for my mother. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.120 But there I would say that there is a lot 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.359 about him, and a lot about a relationship, and a 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.040 lot about who he is and who I am, and 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.159 the toxicity of it all that I choose not to 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.040 have a relationship with him. 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.440 There's something about that incarcerated piece, because I had a 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.960 former abuser that was in jail for eight plus years, 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:36.640 and there was that weird like, you know, he's there, 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.080 but you can't have a relationship. It was a very 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.919 strange thing. I remember writing him a letter and then 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.240 going like I have to stop this because now this 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.320 is going to be a weird trauma bonding with him 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:48.679 now in like prison or something. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:49.919 So I. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.840 Never well, I actually I did, but I never saw 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.200 him after he got out, but I did talk to 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.040 him on the phone very briefly. But I just remember 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.280 that being just like awful as well. So I just wondered, 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.040 like how that conversation went. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.280 Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting you talk about that, 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.679 that kind of thick, emotional, you know, realm of around 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.679 the around incarceration. Because I was so ashamed of that, right, 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.840 I would go through my you know, from you know, 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.280 twelve on and I wouldn't tell anybody, right, it was 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.200 so embarrassing to me. And you know, it wasn't until 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.719 years later that I found out that like one in 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.720 five people has had a parent incarcerated. 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:28.880 But at the real life. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.520 Yeah, yeah, So at the time though, I didn't understand that, right, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.480 it's child brain stuff and what you're going through. But 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.879 this idea around what like incarceration, what that means. And 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.120 I remember so many different moments of you know, him 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.520 trying to to call the house, and you know, after 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:48.960 a while, my mom didn't want to hear it, so 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.440 she'd take the phone off the hook, right, and I 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.560 would think, oh my gosh, like, who's he going to call? 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:55.760 If he can't call us? It was like even though 0:18:55.800 --> 0:19:00.000 I understood that he did something wrong right, something wrong 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:01.680 to the effect of like he broke a lawn and 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:03.760 he had to go to prison, there were still parts 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.600 of me, at even at a young age, that felt 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.400 so much compassion for him, Like I and my dad 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.679 was like, you know, like this strong, physically strong man, 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.800 and and he was, you know, a hard working businessman, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.439 and he did you know, he checked some boxes that 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.240 were that were you know, that had value and that 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.360 had character and integrity, and then then there were other 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:28.240 things he did that were so so outrageously wrong. But 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.720 this idea of him being in prison, I remember most 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.040 physically though, when he got out, and I share this 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.600 in the book, that he showed up at our house 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.000 and we hadn't seen him, you know, in a while, 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.639 and my mother was so cold to him, and he 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:47.760 needed money, like he just needed money, so you know, 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.240 I have nothing, like I just got I have nothing, right, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.919 and she she didn't even really offer him anything. And 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.680 I remember looking at him and feeling so sad and 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.639 like I wish I had money to give him, because 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.159 to see my father in this position or like he 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.959 had nothing, was so striking to me because I had 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:13.000 always known my father as somebody who you know, would 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:14.920 go out in the world, and he was very good 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.440 at making money. He was very shrewd and conniving, and 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.560 I sometimes even called him a hustler. But to see 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.159 him in this, like this state of weakness was just 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.760 so overwhelming to me. And I carried that around with 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.760 me for a long time and it really affected, like, 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.240 as you can imagine my story about money, right, Like, 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.280 when you're raised in a house like that, it's kind 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.760 of interesting about your perspective on money and poverty and 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.160 you know what money gets, and so it's just really 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.399 interesting what his incarceration did to me, you know, mentally 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:45.119 and emotionally. 0:20:57.880 --> 0:20:59.679 I think it's interesting too how you said you have 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.280 a little bit more forgiveness for your for your dad 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.520 over your mom, and that's just and I sit here 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.280