WEBVTT - Launching Drone Delivery 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:26.076 Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, 0:00:26.316 --> 0:00:29.436 the show where we talk to entrepreneurs and engineers about 0:00:29.476 --> 0:00:31.876 the future they're going to build once they solve a 0:00:31.916 --> 0:00:36.276 few problems. My guest today is Keenan Wirobek. He's the 0:00:36.356 --> 0:00:39.596 co founder of the drone delivery company zip Line, and 0:00:39.676 --> 0:00:42.876 he has a message for the world. The drones are coming. 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:46.436 There's going to be more planes and flying cars flying 0:00:46.476 --> 0:00:48.156 the airspace in twenty years by a factor of one 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:50.076 hundred than there are aircraft flying in the air today, 0:00:50.836 --> 0:00:55.036 flying taxis, aerial pizza delivery. It could all be coming. 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:59.236 In fact, Keenan's company, zip Line is already doing hundreds 0:00:59.236 --> 0:01:03.316 of drone deliveries a day every day in Rwanda and Ghana. 0:01:03.396 --> 0:01:06.116 But the company has come up against a really interesting, 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:09.676 kind of surprising problem as it tries to expand the US. 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:13.636 It's not really a technological problem. It's more a problem 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:16.836 about the way America thinks about airspace, about the way 0:01:16.876 --> 0:01:20.556 we regulate the sky itself, and this problem it goes 0:01:20.596 --> 0:01:22.956 back to the early days of flight, but it also 0:01:23.076 --> 0:01:27.396 has a huge impact on the present right now. Keenan's 0:01:27.436 --> 0:01:30.116 a robotics engineer by training, and by the time he 0:01:30.156 --> 0:01:33.236 co founded zip Line back in twenty fourteen, he'd already 0:01:33.276 --> 0:01:36.236 worked on a few successful projects. So he was at 0:01:36.236 --> 0:01:38.676 this moment when he could really think hard about what 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:41.836 his next big thing should be. And he told me 0:01:41.996 --> 0:01:44.956 he went around looking for a problem to solve, kept 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:47.596 coming up with ideas, but when he went and asked 0:01:47.676 --> 0:01:50.436 experts in the real world, is this a problem, they'd 0:01:50.436 --> 0:01:54.036 be like, actually, no, that is not really a problem 0:01:54.076 --> 0:01:57.596 for us. Finally, his wife pointed him in a new direction. 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.036 My wife's an epidemiologist, and she was telling me to 0:02:02.116 --> 0:02:05.756 see these stories about health campaigns, you know, vaccine campaigns, 0:02:06.036 --> 0:02:08.316 they just get stuck on logistics, and so of course 0:02:08.316 --> 0:02:10.716 the wheels are turning. It's like, okay, maybe drones and 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:12.956 that actually that that seems like maybe there's a there's 0:02:12.956 --> 0:02:14.956 a real problem to solve here that people are going 0:02:14.996 --> 0:02:17.796 to really care about. Um. But at the same time, 0:02:17.796 --> 0:02:19.756 I will learn you I'm a very skeptical person, so 0:02:19.796 --> 0:02:21.676 it's like, Okay, I'm gonna dig into this, We're gonna 0:02:21.676 --> 0:02:23.316 go learn about this, and I'm just sure there's gonna 0:02:23.316 --> 0:02:25.476 be a thousand reasons why you know, they're never gonna work. 0:02:25.796 --> 0:02:28.236 We can't ever solve this problem. Uh, And so we 0:02:28.236 --> 0:02:30.796 spend a bunch of time and intential America, where my 0:02:30.836 --> 0:02:34.796 wife is from. In Africa, we visited this one medical 0:02:34.836 --> 0:02:38.956 supply warehouse in Tanzania, and outside the warehouse as far 0:02:38.956 --> 0:02:42.196 as you could see, you know, football fields of palette stacked, 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:45.276 you know, two stories high in places. We're just outside 0:02:45.276 --> 0:02:47.596 this warehouse. We're like, what's why do you have all 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:50.556 these medical supplies you know, vaccines, pharmaceuticals, other things. Why 0:02:50.556 --> 0:02:52.516 are they outside? And you know, one of the people 0:02:52.516 --> 0:02:54.356 in the delegation sort of quietly because they were kind 0:02:54.356 --> 0:02:57.276 of embarrassed about it, they're like, yeah, that's all expired medicine. 0:02:57.396 --> 0:02:59.356 That was one of those like moments where it clicked 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:02.756 of like, Okay, supply is actually not the big problem. 0:03:02.996 --> 0:03:06.876 There's actually something much more practical around around how to run, 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:08.556 you know, how to get this supply from you know, 0:03:08.596 --> 0:03:11.836 point a these warehouses to these doctors. That was one 0:03:11.876 --> 0:03:13.996 of the experiences that kind of just like the bit 0:03:14.036 --> 0:03:16.476 flipped in my head from like this is probably not 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:19.196 a problem we can solve to like, holy shit, we 0:03:19.276 --> 0:03:21.716 have to solve this problem. And it just became really 0:03:21.716 --> 0:03:24.596 clear you could leap frog over all these factors by 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:27.036 doing this with drones in an on demand way. So 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:30.996 this is the rare instance where a robot can solve 0:03:31.036 --> 0:03:33.436 a big important problem in the world that the people 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:36.436 dealing with the problem actually agree is a big important 0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:39.636 problem exactly. And I'd say that that people agreeing it's 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:42.716 important problem was another big part of my concern. Right, 0:03:42.876 --> 0:03:45.116 Like in Silicon Valley, we like to use the word 0:03:45.156 --> 0:03:47.676 disruption as a good word. Right, you walk into a 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.236 health system, a national health system of a country and say, 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:55.636 let's disrupt this, Like nobody is exciting. Yeah, everybody's like, 0:03:55.796 --> 0:03:58.556 here's the door. We're busy. You're like, go' disrupt somebody else, 0:03:58.556 --> 0:03:59.956 Like we have a job to do. I was very 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:01.916 worried that there just wasn't going to be an appetite 0:04:01.916 --> 0:04:05.956 for change in these health systems. But really the opposite happened, 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:08.356 where we got started getting to know these health systems 0:04:08.356 --> 0:04:10.516 and the ministers of health in these countries. And I 0:04:10.556 --> 0:04:13.476 still remember the first interaction with the Minister of health 0:04:13.516 --> 0:04:15.756 in Rwanda. She said, Okay, you've got two weeks. You know, 0:04:15.836 --> 0:04:18.636 we've got all the data, like you've been modeling how 0:04:18.676 --> 0:04:20.636 a drone system, like this could work in a health system. 0:04:20.876 --> 0:04:23.276 Put together the case, what's the health impact, what's the 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:25.676 economic impact, and then we'll go from there, and that 0:04:25.716 --> 0:04:28.516 was just like amazing. The rest is of course history. 0:04:28.556 --> 0:04:30.676 The case was really compelling on the health side and 0:04:30.756 --> 0:04:35.356 the economic side, and they became our first customer. And specifically, 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:38.476 what is the ask, what is the job? The job 0:04:38.516 --> 0:04:42.396 from Rwanda is deliver blood on demand. The obvious answer 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:44.396 in the early days like, okay, cool, which drone are 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:45.796 we going to buy? So went out to all the 0:04:45.876 --> 0:04:47.756 drone companies they could make a drone that could do 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:51.596 what we wanted. And this was an incredibly frustrating journey 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:54.636 because the best quote I got for a drone was 0:04:54.796 --> 0:04:57.916 two hundred thousand dollars per drone with a two hundred 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:00.356 flight warranty if I didn't fly it in the rain. 0:05:02.676 --> 0:05:04.516 And it was like and obviously the economics of that 0:05:04.556 --> 0:05:06.516 are just like don't work at all. And you know, 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:08.916 the customers want delivery all the time when it's waning 0:05:08.956 --> 0:05:11.436 or this was all really clear and it just became 0:05:11.956 --> 0:05:14.876 this is one of those wake up call moments of like, oh, 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:17.916 you gotta do this yourself. Um, and getting this first 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:20.236 product service off the ground for this customer is going 0:05:20.276 --> 0:05:22.316 to be a much bigger lift than than you thought. 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:25.196 So you realize you're going to have to build your 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:27.836 own drones from scratch. And one of the things that's 0:05:27.876 --> 0:05:30.076 interesting to me about this part of the story is 0:05:30.076 --> 0:05:33.276 is it right you wind up basically using iPhone parts. 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:36.276 So the sensors, many of the sensors that make the 0:05:36.356 --> 0:05:38.876 drone fly, Um, you know, these are the same sensors 0:05:38.916 --> 0:05:41.636 that are in your phone. Uh, And that the tech 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:44.076 like whether or not you know what orientation your phone 0:05:44.116 --> 0:05:46.516 is started for your video is like, so your phone 0:05:46.556 --> 0:05:48.876 knows the videos should be sideways, are playing those which 0:05:48.916 --> 0:05:50.476 way is up? And how to fly without you know, 0:05:50.476 --> 0:05:52.716 falling out of the sky. And it's truly the same 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:56.516 basically the same sensors. Oh yeah, made by the same companies. 0:05:56.716 --> 0:06:00.036 Like yeah, what if there are others? Can you just 0:06:00.076 --> 0:06:02.436 like rattle off like, oh, sure, what sensors that are 0:06:02.436 --> 0:06:05.716 in my iPhone more or less are in your drones? Yeah? 0:06:05.756 --> 0:06:09.076 So GPS, Uh, the cell modems that are in your 0:06:09.516 --> 0:06:12.156 we have in our drones. Even the basically the processors 0:06:12.196 --> 0:06:14.596 that are in your phone, we use very similar technology 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:16.996 processing cheap more or less similar exactly. That they're so 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:21.116 power efficient and they're so capable. It's amazing to me. 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:24.076 I guess in part because you know, I've gotten used 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:29.916 to thinking about giant businesses like I don't know, Uber 0:06:30.516 --> 0:06:34.436 or Instagram that like, okay, I guess that those you 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:37.276 couldn't have without the iPhone, right, that is intuitive to me. 0:06:37.836 --> 0:06:40.196 But the idea that, like, you know, a company sending 0:06:40.276 --> 0:06:43.956 drones across sub Saharan Africa to deliver blood, that that 0:06:44.116 --> 0:06:47.316 is also built on the iPhone is wild. Like you 0:06:47.396 --> 0:06:50.356 needed the cell phone the smartphone revolution. You needed the 0:06:50.356 --> 0:06:53.156 iPhone to have come along and made all these components 0:06:53.636 --> 0:06:57.676 super cheap, super reliable, super smart exactly. So I want 0:06:57.716 --> 0:07:00.036 to try. I want to just talk through in some detail, 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.636 how like one on what do you call it delivery? 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:06.036 I guess how one delivery works. So some doctor or 0:07:06.156 --> 0:07:11.996 nurse needs something in their hospital. What happens? Yeah, so 0:07:12.076 --> 0:07:14.756 a doctor or nurse needs something, they place their order 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:16.476 right And by the way, we're really flexible there. They 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:18.876 can use an app, they can use their phone, they 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:20.996 can use WhatsApp, they can pick up the phone and 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:24.116 call us, whatever's easy for them. So our team they're 0:07:24.236 --> 0:07:25.556 they're gonna get the unit of blood out of the 0:07:25.636 --> 0:07:28.156 freezer or fridge. They're gonna get the unit off the shelf, 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:31.116 they're gonna pack it up, put it into one of 0:07:31.156 --> 0:07:34.596 the drones. The drone gets put into a launcher. And 0:07:34.756 --> 0:07:37.356 I'm gonna pause you there because we have a video 0:07:37.676 --> 0:07:39.756 and I know we're like watching videos on a podcast 0:07:39.836 --> 0:07:42.236 is a questionable move, but let's try it, because like 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:44.996 I do want to see it. Right, it's a it's yeah, 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:48.076 it's cool. So you ready, I'm gonna you push play too, Okay, ready, 0:07:48.516 --> 0:07:52.076 go all right? Okay, So, so somebody is loading it 0:07:52.396 --> 0:07:54.676 looks like a plane, a plane about the size of 0:07:54.716 --> 0:07:59.196 a person, onto some kind of a launcher right onto 0:07:59.276 --> 0:08:03.796 like a ramp exactly. Well, there's propellers. The propellers are spinning, 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:08.636 I like your narration. And then there's a guy. What's 0:08:08.636 --> 0:08:10.796 the guy there doing? Oh, it just launched. He just 0:08:10.876 --> 0:08:14.076 launched it. Yeah, wingspans about ten feet so picture. Yeah, 0:08:14.076 --> 0:08:17.156 it's like a big RC plane. Okay, a big remote 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:20.036 control plane. And by the way, I mean, it's not 0:08:20.116 --> 0:08:22.316 in fact remote controlled, right, Like what does it is? 0:08:22.316 --> 0:08:24.756 It actually just flying on its own? Yeah, so it 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:27.636 is flying it's flying automatically all the way out to 0:08:27.636 --> 0:08:31.156 the delivery site. Does that mean there are people whose 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:33.436 job is to sit somewhere at the warehouse fan in 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:37.116 office and like look at what a camera from to 0:08:37.276 --> 0:08:39.156 basically do air traffic control, to look at what all 0:08:39.156 --> 0:08:41.516 the drones are doing and make sure that exactly So 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.076 we call our drones zips, and we call those people 0:08:44.196 --> 0:08:47.236 ZIP controllers. Their job is very similar to air traffic control. 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:49.876 And do they generally have to do anything or do 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:52.636 the drones take care of themselves? The drones take care 0:08:52.676 --> 0:08:55.836 of themselves. Okay, so here, let's keep watching. So now 0:08:56.476 --> 0:08:59.356 now that drone is going to make the drop. First 0:08:59.396 --> 0:09:00.876 of all, you have to picture a package. So picture 0:09:01.156 --> 0:09:05.516 a cake box, right size package with a paper parachute 0:09:05.516 --> 0:09:07.636 on it that's in the belly of this drone. And 0:09:07.716 --> 0:09:11.196 so the drone flies over the delivery site and when 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:13.476 it drops it, that paper parachute will inflate and the 0:09:13.516 --> 0:09:16.396 package drifts to the ground a little bit like a cartoon, 0:09:16.516 --> 0:09:19.516 is how I That's how I'm watching it right now. Yeah, 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:23.196 it worked, It worked. It looks kind of fast, it's 0:09:23.196 --> 0:09:25.316 coming down kind of fast. Yeah, yeah, it's it does 0:09:25.356 --> 0:09:27.396 come down fast. It's a This is the fun of 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:29.956 the engineering challenge here. If you come down really slowly, 0:09:31.036 --> 0:09:35.556 that accuracy that basically goes gets worse because the wind 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:38.636 can blow it to the side. More basic, exactly exactly 0:09:38.756 --> 0:09:40.556 if it hit you on the head, it looks like 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:43.076 it would hurt. I have been a test subject of 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:45.996 this intentionally to make sure someone who has to do 0:09:46.036 --> 0:09:47.436 it under it. So it hit you on the head. 0:09:47.516 --> 0:09:49.556 Is that what you're telling me? You know what's happening. 0:09:49.796 --> 0:09:52.676 I live to tell the tale. So okay, I'm more seriously, 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:55.276 has anybody ever gotten hurt by one of your drones? No, 0:09:55.276 --> 0:09:57.036 No one's gotten hurt by one of our drones. But 0:09:57.076 --> 0:09:59.316 there's a lot of engineering work that goes into really 0:09:59.356 --> 0:10:01.956 minimizing the chances that you can get hurt by a drone. Okay, 0:10:02.116 --> 0:10:04.556 tell me about the end of the flight. It doesn't 0:10:04.676 --> 0:10:06.676 land in the way one would think of a little 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.676 plane landing. It doesn't land it. Yeah, So there's like 0:10:09.716 --> 0:10:12.676 two arms sticking into the air. There's two poles sticking 0:10:12.676 --> 0:10:14.676 into the air, and those poles are on motors. Okay, 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:16.636 so they move up and down, but basically you know 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:20.676 they're on motors. Between those two poles. Is a string, okay, 0:10:20.996 --> 0:10:23.716 really small string okay. And basically what's happening is our 0:10:23.836 --> 0:10:27.036 drone flies between these two poles and at the last second, 0:10:27.076 --> 0:10:29.436 look the last fraction of a second. Yeah, if everything 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:32.156 looks good, those poles, the motors on those poles will 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:35.276 snap those polls up, so the line flings into the 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:39.356 tailhook of the plane, capturing the plane and that's how 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:45.556 it lands. That is amazing in a minute, the truly 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:48.356 surprising reason that it's harder to build a drone business 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:56.076 in the United States than in Rwanda. Now, let's get 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.876 back to what's your problem. Zipline expanded from Rwanda to 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:02.276 Ghana a few years ago and now delivers lots of 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:06.316 medical supplies across both countries. It's like a normal routine 0:11:06.356 --> 0:11:09.236 thing there, hundreds of flights a day every day. But 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:12.316 the company is just starting to expand into the United States. 0:11:12.596 --> 0:11:14.716 So far, ziplanes work in this country is limited to 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.876 a few pilot projects. They're delivering medical supplies for a 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:21.036 hospital system in North Carolina. They're also flying stuff like 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:24.596 bandages and over the counter medicine to Walmart customers in 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:28.196 rural Arkansas. And in their work in the United States, 0:11:28.436 --> 0:11:32.396 Zipline is facing one particularly hard problem. A lot of 0:11:32.396 --> 0:11:36.676 the challenge comes down to the regulatory environment. In the US, 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:39.436 our airspace is very old fashioned. We have a philosophy 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:41.116 here in the US and the airspace where we kind 0:11:41.116 --> 0:11:45.676 of grandfather everything in so not absolutely everything, but mostly everything. 0:11:45.716 --> 0:11:47.276 A lot of things you could do in the forties 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:49.356 you can still do in the airspace today, and that 0:11:49.396 --> 0:11:51.876 makes things very complicated. Most other countries, basically the way 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:54.076 they talk about it is, say we have modernized our airspace. 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:57.116 We've required things like transponders so all planes can tell 0:11:57.356 --> 0:11:59.356 by radio where all the other planes are. We don't 0:11:59.356 --> 0:12:01.156 require that here in So you're telling me there's some 0:12:01.236 --> 0:12:03.876 device that you can put in a plane that allows 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:06.436 all other planes to know that plane is there, and 0:12:06.436 --> 0:12:07.956 in the US you don't have to have that in 0:12:07.996 --> 0:12:10.756 your plane. That is correct and as crazy as it sounds. 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:14.956 And so in terms of like regulating airspace, like Ghana 0:12:14.996 --> 0:12:17.596 and Rwanda are doing sort of sensible modern things that 0:12:17.636 --> 0:12:20.996 the US is not doing. That's exactly right, and that 0:12:21.036 --> 0:12:24.796 makes their airspace essentially much simpler to integrate drones into 0:12:25.476 --> 0:12:28.436 versus here in the US. Tell me what other problems 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:30.676 are you trying to solve what's a technical one that's 0:12:30.716 --> 0:12:34.236 interesting when we're working on that that's extraordinarily hard, which is, 0:12:34.796 --> 0:12:37.716 this comes down to operating in airspaces like the United States, 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:41.196 where you have planes flying around that don't have you know, 0:12:41.236 --> 0:12:43.436 a radio transponder that tells you where they are, and 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:46.076 so you have to have sensing on the drone that 0:12:46.236 --> 0:12:50.076 directly senses where these other aircraft are hard to avoid. Okay, 0:12:50.436 --> 0:12:52.036 and this is something that's very hard to do for 0:12:52.076 --> 0:12:55.796 a bunch of reasons. We tried radar and radar that 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:58.356 can see in all directions. It just you literally need 0:12:58.436 --> 0:13:01.676 hundreds of pounds of radar equipment to see far enough 0:13:01.676 --> 0:13:04.876 in all directions, which of course there drones don't weigh 0:13:04.916 --> 0:13:08.076 hundreds of pounds to begin with. And camera is the 0:13:08.116 --> 0:13:10.476 same problem. So many cameras with so many lenses and 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:13.116 so many you know, pixels if you will see that, 0:13:13.356 --> 0:13:15.116 you know, that speck in the air, and of course 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:17.316 cameras they just don't work when it's cloudy, which is 0:13:17.956 --> 0:13:19.636 you know, a big deal. So basically you've had to 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.476 do a sensor technology development from the ground up for this, 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:26.076 and it's it's something that's been really challenging and really 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:29.116 really exciting because if we can solve this problem, it'll 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:32.436 enable scaled operations for drones, you know, around the world. 0:13:33.196 --> 0:13:36.796 So how do you solve it? Are you getting closer? 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:39.356 We're getting a lot closer. And this is I have 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:41.236 to tease here because the actual thing I can't talk 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.196 about quite. It's a secret because of like intellectual property, 0:13:44.236 --> 0:13:46.356 because you're going to try and plent it, literally because 0:13:46.396 --> 0:13:48.876 of intellectual property, because we're gonna because we're trying to 0:13:48.876 --> 0:13:51.036 patent it. So let me ask a question. If you 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:53.156 haven't solved this problem yet, how are you able to 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:55.796 fly in the US? Yeah? So in the US, and 0:13:55.876 --> 0:13:58.036 this is true of all drone operators in the US. 0:13:58.196 --> 0:14:01.516 Even even everybody who flies drones in the US is 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:05.636 doing exactly this thing I'm gonna describe, which is not sophisticated. 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:09.756 There are people along those routes looking at the sky. Wow. 0:14:09.836 --> 0:14:12.556 So wherever your drones flood, you have people who are 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.796 your employees. They are getting paid by the hour to 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:18.636 look at the sky and what text or something if 0:14:18.636 --> 0:14:20.716 they push a button, if they see exactly they have 0:14:20.716 --> 0:14:23.196 a special app that they can communicate with our controller. 0:14:23.196 --> 0:14:25.196 If they see something and then there's a whole protocol 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:27.916 around what do And just to be clear, you don't 0:14:27.916 --> 0:14:30.036 have to do this in Rwanda or in Ghana because 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:33.036 all of the planes flying there have transponders, so the 0:14:33.116 --> 0:14:36.476 drones automatically know when there's another plane. Yeah, and you know, 0:14:36.476 --> 0:14:39.476 we feed our data there into basically their literal air 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:42.036 traffic control, so they have a view of their whole airspace, 0:14:42.076 --> 0:14:45.116 including all the aircraft with people and all of our drives. 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.156 So wild to me that we don't have that. Maybe 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:49.836 I'm super naive, I guess obviously I am super naive 0:14:51.356 --> 0:14:54.516 to be surprised by that. Like is there any broader 0:14:54.636 --> 0:14:57.676 lesson from that, Like, is there anything I can conclude 0:14:57.676 --> 0:15:00.556 about the way the United States works, the way regulation 0:15:00.596 --> 0:15:02.356 works here? I don't know. I mean it is some 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:05.076 of it is a philosophical thing, right like here we 0:15:05.356 --> 0:15:09.836 sort of we sort of romanticize and cherish like sort 0:15:09.876 --> 0:15:12.636 of the old ways of flying, and so we cowboys 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:16.396 cowboys in the sky and their little cessna or whatever exactly. 0:15:16.596 --> 0:15:18.116 They are pilots I've met who have told me to 0:15:18.156 --> 0:15:19.996 my face, I'm never going to put a transponder because 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:21.556 that means people know where I am, and some of 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:24.036 it is also just uh, you know, I think this 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:25.356 is one of the things I think a lot about 0:15:25.356 --> 0:15:27.436 with this country, right, where As we kind of mature, 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:29.476 if you will, as a country, right, A lot of 0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:32.636 these countries like Rwanda and Ghana, these are literally young countries. 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:36.996 Their whole mindset is around growth and becoming, you know, 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:39.636 and becoming the economic power they want to be in 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:41.916 the future and things like that, and they're very willing 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:44.876 to sort of make decisions that are very future focused. 0:15:45.596 --> 0:15:47.556 And I think more and more I see, you know, 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:49.756 as a as a society right at the balance between 0:15:49.796 --> 0:15:52.116 clinging to the past and and focusing on the future 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:53.996 and how do you do both in the right way? 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:56.436 So we so we actually you know, stay who we 0:15:56.476 --> 0:15:58.316 want to be and become who we need to be. 0:15:58.796 --> 0:16:00.636 And that's a that's a tricky thing to do. And 0:16:00.476 --> 0:16:02.316 I see when I sit in a room of the 0:16:02.316 --> 0:16:05.116 fa leadership and they're literally debating this kind of thing, 0:16:05.436 --> 0:16:08.716 like in these kind of terms, the FAA has more 0:16:08.756 --> 0:16:11.796 old as regulations that makes it harder for you to 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:15.076 do what you do. You're working closely with the FAA, 0:16:15.116 --> 0:16:18.756 and like like where does that sort of land like, 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:21.676 is there some I know there's no endpoint, but if 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:24.476 there's some big like step that's going to happen where 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:28.036 they're going to say, Okay, you can delivered hospitals all 0:16:28.076 --> 0:16:30.236 over the country and like what problems do you have 0:16:30.276 --> 0:16:33.556 to solve for that to happen. Yeah, So the journey 0:16:33.596 --> 0:16:37.396 with the FA, Yeah, it's incremental rights. It's all about 0:16:37.436 --> 0:16:39.396 taking the right next step that leads you to the 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:41.756 next step that leads you to the next step, both 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:44.716 for them to get comfortable, for them to learn, for 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:46.556 us to get to know each other. Literally, there's a 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:48.196 lot of trust that has to be built between a 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:51.036 company like Zipline doing something very new and a regulator 0:16:51.076 --> 0:16:53.476 like the FA who you know, to their credit, right, 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:57.276 the advent of autonomy in the airspace is like the 0:16:57.276 --> 0:17:01.516 biggest change to the airspace literally since flight began. Yeah, right, 0:17:01.516 --> 0:17:03.116 and I mean that in every sense of the word. Right. 0:17:03.196 --> 0:17:05.636 There's going to be more planes and flying cars flying 0:17:05.636 --> 0:17:07.276 in the airspace in twenty years by a factor of 0:17:07.276 --> 0:17:09.036 one hundred than there are aircraft flying the air to 0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:12.876 It's that big of a change. And you know, to 0:17:12.956 --> 0:17:15.036 their credit, like they can't you know, they can't be 0:17:15.076 --> 0:17:16.636 reckless here, this is going to be hard to do, 0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:20.956 and do it safely in a minute, The Lightning Round, 0:17:21.116 --> 0:17:25.116 including Keenan's tips for solving hard problems and the biggest 0:17:25.156 --> 0:17:34.036 misconception most people have about drones. Okay, let's get back 0:17:34.036 --> 0:17:36.436 to the show. We're gonna close with the Lightning Round. 0:17:36.676 --> 0:17:40.836 Are you ready? I'm ready. What is one piece of 0:17:40.876 --> 0:17:43.276 advice you'd give to somebody who is trying to solve 0:17:43.276 --> 0:17:47.076 a hard problem. If it's a hard business or customer problem, 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:50.676 start with real human customers before you do anything else. 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:54.716 If it's a technology problem, focus on the hardest part 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:57.436 of the technology problem, ignore all the rest, and then 0:17:57.476 --> 0:17:58.676 go on to the next hardest and then go on 0:17:58.676 --> 0:18:01.516 the next hardest. What's your favorite app on your phone? 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:05.116 My favorite app on my phone. I'm sure I have 0:18:05.156 --> 0:18:08.196 such a positive relationship with my phone. Actually, you know, 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:11.676 recently I I got Nebula. I really like Nebula. I 0:18:11.956 --> 0:18:14.956 don't know Nebula. What is it? It's basically a bunch 0:18:14.956 --> 0:18:18.116 of the more wonkier YouTubers got together and made an 0:18:18.196 --> 0:18:21.756 ad free YouTube for to cheat sidestuff to YouTube algorithm, 0:18:21.796 --> 0:18:24.636 and they just make some great content. Oh great, Yeah, 0:18:24.916 --> 0:18:28.036 that's a good tip. What's the biggest misconception people have 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:33.036 about drones? Biggest misconception people have about drones. I have 0:18:33.076 --> 0:18:35.636 a good friend who's now worked at SpaceX and zip Line, 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.596 and he likes to joke that rockets are easier than 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:41.276 people think, and drones are harder than people think. Good. 0:18:41.476 --> 0:18:43.076 A lot of people they look at the little you know, 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:44.436 they look at a drone that you play with as 0:18:44.436 --> 0:18:45.996 a hobby, and they're like, what's the big deal. Let's 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:48.116 put a package on the bottom and deliver stuff. And 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:50.036 I'll be honest, I was a little guilty of that 0:18:50.076 --> 0:18:53.836 too when I started zip Line two, two or three 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:58.476 more favorite trait and a co worker, Oh easy, someone 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:01.476 who has a lot of fun when ship gets hard. Yeah, 0:19:01.516 --> 0:19:03.396 it's actually this actually the main thing I interview for. 0:19:03.436 --> 0:19:05.996 It's sort of funny because they're so much fun because 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:08.236 startups so just like it's one hard thing to the next, right, 0:19:08.316 --> 0:19:10.396 and and people who really are going to enjoy that, 0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:13.116 And are you're gonna have fun with through that? You know? 0:19:13.356 --> 0:19:17.116 People who love the problem? Yeah, exactly. Um, what would 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:20.436 you do if you couldn't do what you do? Oh goodness, 0:19:20.476 --> 0:19:23.676 I've looked. Yeah, this this is this is interesting if 0:19:23.716 --> 0:19:27.436 I carbon sequestration, how will you know when it's time 0:19:27.476 --> 0:19:30.836 to retire that I have? I have no idea, you know. 0:19:30.916 --> 0:19:33.396 I think the you know, zip Line today is the 0:19:33.396 --> 0:19:35.676 biggest company I've ever worked at by a lot. How 0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:40.956 big is it? Going on? Seven hundred folks? Yeah, um 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:44.116 and um yeah. You know, if you had asked me 0:19:44.156 --> 0:19:45.556 eight years ago, if I'd still be here when were 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.156 seven hundred people, I would have been like, Nope, that 0:19:48.196 --> 0:19:51.556 doesn't sound like me. So it's a painful growth for sure. 0:19:51.636 --> 0:19:53.716 I work hard at it, and I have a lot 0:19:53.756 --> 0:19:55.956