1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here. 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: Back for another episode as we of course talk about 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. Today we are going to 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 2: be talking about the psychology of revenge. What some of 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: us might think of as an ugly feeling, but what 12 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: is actually one of the most complex, layered human emotions 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: that we can have. So of my absolute favorite movies 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: and books are written about this concept. Think like kill 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: Bill or promising young women or Taken. And I find 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: our human need for like an eye for an eye 17 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: so interesting. It's one of those universal human impulses that 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: we all get, whether or not we've acted on it, 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: whether or not we've acknowledged it or not. You know, 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: if only I could make my ex hurt the way 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 2: that they hurt me, If only I could get back 22 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: at that friend who betrayed me or that person who 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: cut me off on the road. Sometimes it almost feels 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: satisfying to either enact revenge or to daydream about all 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: the ways we could Is that a good thing? Why 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: do we feel such like a weird pleasure around hurting 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: someone who hurt us? Here's the paradox as well. Revenge 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: promises satisfaction, but more often than not you might not 29 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: know this, you probably do, but it actually leaves us 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: feeling emptier than it might feel good initially. Is it 31 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: really worth the cost? And how do you navigate feeling 32 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: such a messy bit of feeling that maybe goes up 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: against your more inherent desire to be a good person. 34 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: Why is the drive towards revenge so strong? When should 35 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: we act on it? When should we avoid it? These 36 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: are all the kind of questions that we're going to 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: be answering today's episode, as well as looking at some 38 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: listener stories of people who have sought revenge and what 39 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: the consequences were. There is so much pettiness, so much 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: drama in this episode, so many good stories, and also 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: so much psychology. It's almost unbelievable. So without further ado, 42 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: let's get into the psychology of revenge. I feel like 43 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: the idea of revenge is almost romantic at this point. 44 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: It's like this driving force for so many dramatic moments. 45 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: Some people would even call them poetic moments. So what 46 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: exactly is it about revenge that makes it so powerful 47 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: and so hard to resist? To understand revenge, we really 48 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: have to start at the origin, feeling at what is 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: going on before we even decide to get back at someone. 50 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: When someone wrongs us, that's the beginning of this process. 51 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: Our brain obviously interprets it as a threat not just 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 2: to our safety, but also to more high level cognitive values, 53 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: so things like social status. It's a threat to social status, 54 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: it's a threat to our sense of fairness. It's also 55 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: a threat to our identity. Now, when you have a 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: healthy ego, there is this like invisible protective boundary or 57 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: shield around you. It kind of represents like a limit 58 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: of what you will and won't tolerate. And when someone 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: oversteps that boundary, when the shield is penetrated, that's when 60 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: something pretty us is triggered. Now, some people's boundary shield 61 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: is quite small and close to them, and some people's 62 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: is quite wide. Regardless, it is actually completely subjective, but 63 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: studies in the field of neuroscience have shown that when 64 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: someone crosses that boundary, there is this specific area in 65 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: our brain called the dorsal striatom that immediately lights up. Interestingly, 66 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: it's also the same area that lights up when we 67 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: eat chocolate, when we win money, when we receive praise 68 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: from somebody. In other words, the anticipation of revenge after 69 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: someone has hurt us, harmed us, betrayed us literally does 70 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: feel initially quite pleasurable. This from an evolutionary perspective, makes 71 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: a lot of sense. We are wired to respond to injustice. 72 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: If we think about early groups of humans, we pretty 73 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: much relied on this elusive concept of fairness to survive 74 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: being having your resources stolen, having your reputation undermined, having 75 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: your partner taken that could and would threaten your survival, 76 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: and so revenge served as a signal to others that 77 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: this kind of behavior was unacceptable. So in a way 78 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: it actually worked to reinforce social rules and to deter 79 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: people or others from betrayal or from hurting people. Basically, 80 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: it's like the classic idea of punishment, punishing the offender, 81 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: teaching them a lesson restoring harmony, and also signaling to 82 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: the wider group that this is not okay, but also 83 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: that you are not an easy target, and this kind 84 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: of reputational enforcement that you are not somebody to be 85 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: messed with was really adaptive in smaller communities where reputation 86 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: affected access to mates, to protection, to resources, So long 87 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: before laws or social contracts, this instinct was really really helpful. 88 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: It's actually what psychologist would call altruistic punishment. Basically, yes, 89 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: the outcome of revenge might not be necessarily positive for 90 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: the other person, but it also has a greater good 91 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: in that it used to maintain group cooperation and it 92 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: actually used to be good for social harmony, knowing that 93 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: there was this balance between giving people respect and knowing 94 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: that if you overstepped your boundary you would also receive 95 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: some kind of punishment that taught you not. 96 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: To do that. 97 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: So it is a very very old feeling. That's what 98 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: we need to understand, especially if you feel a lot 99 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: of guilt around wanting to enact revenge against someone. The 100 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: question that we kind of get into is why would 101 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: it therefore still be useful in modern life. You know, 102 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 2: when we have laws and law enforcement, when we have rules, 103 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: when we have a legal system, why do we still 104 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: feel the feeling if technically there are other systems that 105 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: are meant to, you know, take care of that for us. 106 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: The most obvious driver for revenge is this need for justice. 107 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: And I know I just mentioned the legal system and 108 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: law enforcement system. What if that system is broken. What 109 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: if that system doesn't work in your interests? What if 110 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: the thing that someone did wasn't necessarily illegal but still 111 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: really hurt you deeply, Like what if it was someone 112 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: who cheated, or something really petty and small that you 113 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: couldn't necessarily sue someone for, but which still really annoyed 114 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: you and hurt you. I remember when my ex was 115 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: secretly dating someone whilst we were having like discussions of 116 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: like do we get back together or not? And we're 117 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: having all these talks about like, no, we definitely have 118 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: a future together, give me a second chance, and the 119 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: whole time he was dating somebody else. And when I 120 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: found out, I had never felt that surge of adrenaline 121 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: before that like it to be honest like desire to 122 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: hurt him, and it honestly like it shocked me, like 123 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: it made me see myself differently as an individual. This 124 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 2: is like the classic they must pay kind of motive, 125 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: the belief that for fairness to be enacted, retribution is 126 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: somewhat required. Revenge also allows us to reassert control if 127 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: we've been betrayed, humiliated, or made to feel powerless. Like 128 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: fantasizing about payback gives us this sense of agency, even 129 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: if we don't do anything about it. There's this idea 130 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: of like, yes, this person stepped all over me. Yes, 131 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: this person hurt me, but I know I could get 132 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: back at them if I wanted to, and therefore I 133 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: actually do have some level of control in this situation. 134 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: So it kind of serves as this like emotional moral 135 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: like psychological recalibration that stops us from being additionally hurt 136 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: by this idea that we are powerless to what people 137 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: do to us. Many people also believe that revenge actually 138 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: helps people get closure. There's this perception that if you 139 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: retaliate and make someone feel the way that they made 140 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: you feel, that is when you can walk away. That 141 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: is when the door is closed. Unsurprisingly, maybe surprisingly, research 142 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: shows that revenge actually rarely provides closure. In fact, according 143 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: to research published in the Journal of Personality in Social Psychology, 144 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 2: those who enact or engage in revenge actually tend to 145 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: ruminate even more about the initial event, and they tend 146 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: to actually feel that their negative emotions are kept alive. 147 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: In comparison, people who resist revenge, even resist fantasizing about it, 148 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: often recover faster emotionally from the event and from the 149 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: person and the act that hurt them. Just something to 150 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: keep in mind. The final driver towards revenge is just 151 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: plain old impulsivity. It's like this knee jerk reaction to 152 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: feeling disarmed by someone else's action. We just have to 153 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: lash out. That's a really crucial thing about revenge is 154 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: that it often isn't planned. It is so primal and 155 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: emotional that it's not strategic. You just want to hurt 156 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: the other person, which is why it also tends to 157 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: backfire or to not feel as good as we initially 158 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: think it will. This might be like the angry text 159 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: that you send that you really regret later on when 160 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: you know you're meant to be the person who like 161 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: rises above things, or like the public call out on 162 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: your Instagram stories the heat of the moment reaction you know, 163 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: I gosh, I like remember I remember when a group 164 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: of my closest friends all went on this overseas trip 165 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: together when I was nineteen, and they didn't tell me, 166 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: and they kind of asked other people around us not 167 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 2: to tell me either, and I ended up finding out 168 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: from someone else. What was my reaction to that? It 169 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 2: was to post this like really cringe Instagram story that 170 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: was like when someone shows you who you are, like 171 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: believe them, Like it's so awkward to think about right now, 172 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: Like that I did that, And obviously I ended up 173 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: having a conversation with them, but like that was my 174 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: first reaction. I feel so cringe, but in the moment, 175 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: like that was the only way, the impulsive way to 176 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: restore balance in that situation. So this kind of impulsive 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: revenge is driven by the limbic system. We speak about 178 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: that a lot. It's this emotional center in your brain 179 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: that has evolved to keep us alive in dangerous situations 180 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: by being extremely reactive. Specifically, the amicdala is the key 181 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: actor here. This is the part of your brain responsible 182 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: for processing fear, anger, threats, humanly hurt. So when we 183 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: do experience those things, the amygdala fires pretty instantly and 184 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: it sends signals to our body that you know, we 185 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: need to be on high alert, we need to be 186 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: doing something, we need to be acting, and when it's 187 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 2: an emotional situation where we can't necessarily fight back or 188 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: run away or freeze, we lash out. I guess we 189 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: fight back psychologically and emotionally and cognitively by trying in 190 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 2: some way to be in control of the situation, even 191 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: if it ends up being kind of ridiculous. This does 192 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: not necessarily help us in the modern world. It has 193 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: the potential to be very destructive. The tricky thing here 194 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: is that impulsive revenge is incredibly fleeting. Once the adrenaline fades, 195 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: I promise you, the satisfaction fades as well. What's left 196 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 2: behind is often regret and shame. Studies again, neuroscience studies 197 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: have found that impulsive acts of aggression, they do produce 198 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: short bursts of reward related activity in our brains, followed 199 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: by increases in negative self referential processing. What does that mean? 200 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: It's basically that like, oh crap, what have I done? Feeling? 201 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 2: They're like what does this say about me? Feeling? I 202 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: thought I was better than this feeling, and that feels awful. 203 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: Of course, we also have planned revenge. This is the colder, 204 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: more deliberate kind that comes from higher up in the 205 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: brain's hierarchy. It involves the prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex 206 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: and the amigdala are like the same but different. They 207 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 2: are incredibly integral in how our brain operates. But the 208 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 2: prefrontal cortex is all rational, it's long term planning, it's 209 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: impulse control. You would think that it would and it 210 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: is there to kind of mediate the amigdala. But when 211 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: like our instinct for revenge gets shifted into that space, suddenly, 212 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: as the injustice lingers and the hot headedness and the 213 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: rage goes down, there's like this new colder dimension to 214 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: how we're thinking about hurting people. We're incredibly strategic. It's 215 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: not chaotic. It's yeah, it's planned. We're thinking it through 216 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: sometimes for months on end, and it can feel quite cathartic, 217 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: considered soothing. One story I heard from a listener was 218 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: about how she got revenge on a boss who had 219 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: harassed her by slowly keeping track of receipts and like 220 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: basically indications that he was stealing money from the restaurant 221 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: that she was working at. So how she did this 222 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: and I'm in a paraphrase what she said, but basically 223 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: she was always offering to close the tills at the 224 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: end of the night and she would count all the money, 225 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: and she would count all the credit card transactions or 226 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: whatever it was, and keep like doubles of the receipts, 227 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: take photos of the receipts, take photos of her count 228 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: because she knew that the boss was taking like three 229 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: hundred to four hundred dollars off what she had put 230 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: in and off her like calculations in claiming to his 231 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: boss that like, you know, they've made less for the day. 232 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: And one day she was like, I waited for six 233 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: months doing this slowly and slowly because you wouldn't do 234 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: it every day. And eventually I went to like my 235 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: boss's boss and I got him fired. 236 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: See, I don't know. 237 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: How I feel about that. I kind of love that 238 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: for her. Another more I guess sinister story was from 239 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: a listener whose partner cheated and she did have evidence. 240 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: He didn't know that she knew, but again she stayed 241 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: with him for another three months. She was like, I 242 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: just went all I felt nothing towards him, but I 243 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: like convinced him that I wanted to get married, that 244 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: he should like propose to me and we should move 245 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: in together and then one weekend he went on like 246 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: a boy's trip, and she packed up half the house 247 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: left left over that weekend and literally had gotten a 248 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: job out of state. Mood states no contact, never spoke 249 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: to him again, and I was like, this is Curl, 250 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: this is crazy, Like, you know, you built him up 251 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: and you like made him feel so in love and 252 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: then she just like cut it off and she was like, 253 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: that's what he made me feel. And I was like, honestly, 254 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: power to you if it made you feel better. I 255 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: guess it kind of sounds like he deserves it. But 256 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: if you've never felt this way, if you've never been 257 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: able to plan this, sometimes it actually does come down 258 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: to our personality. For me, like my form of revenge, 259 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: revenge has always been very impulsive. But you know, in 260 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: the cases where not necessarily these cases, but people where 261 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: they go really intense on someone over something petty, there 262 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: is actually something probably different about how their brain operates 263 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: and about their personality that sociologists and psychologists and neuroscientists 264 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 2: have been trying to figure out. So there's one particular 265 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: social psychologist called Ian McKee at the University of Adelaide 266 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: who is looking into this. I think still at this 267 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: very moment, and according to him, people who are more 268 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: vengeful in the planned sense tend to actually score higher 269 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: on two traits right wing authoritarianism. Basically, they're very willing 270 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: to submit to authority figures, and they're willing to act 271 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: aggressively in their name and social dominance orientation. They want 272 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: their group to be at the top of the hierarchy. 273 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: These individuals are motivated by power, by hierarchy, by the 274 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: preservation of status. They don't want to lose face. They 275 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: are much more likely to seek out planned revenge. His 276 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: research also showed that these personalities tend to be less forgiving, 277 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: less benevolent, and more driven by authority and tradition rather 278 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 2: than empathy or understanding. There's also a cultural dimension to 279 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: this as well to seeking out revenge. Michelle Gelfand another 280 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: psychologist in this area. 281 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: Her and her. 282 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 2: Colleagues found that what triggers our need for revenge actually 283 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 2: differs across cultures in the US, in Australia, in the UK, 284 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 2: and other individualistic societies. Revenge is often fueled by anger 285 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: and the violation of personal rights, the violation of things 286 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: like property rights like this is mine, it belongs to me, 287 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: do not take it. You're not allowed it, and if 288 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: you try, I'm going to enact revenge on you. But 289 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: in collectivist cultures, people aren't so fussed by that stuff. 290 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: It's more about and more triggered by violations of duty 291 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: and honor and violations against the community. Gelfan also noted 292 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 2: that revenge can actually be more contagious in collectivist cultures 293 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: as well, whereby when you harm a member of someone's 294 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: in group, so a family member or close friend, that actually, 295 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: for those individuals feels more like harm to oneself than 296 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 2: others who are living in individualistic societies. It's not just 297 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: my pain like it's our pain. So revenge in these 298 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: situations isn't about personal temperament. It's more about cultural and 299 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: social belonging and maintaining the fabric of the collectivist society 300 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: rather than protecting what's yours. We're going to return to 301 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: this idea I mentioned before, which is that on some 302 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: level revenge is actually really satisfying. What about the costs? 303 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: If you are sitting there thinking, I'm kind of tossing 304 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: up what I do in this situation, someone has hurt me, 305 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: I want to act on it. Let's talk about what 306 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: you should actually do practically, what should you do after 307 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 2: this short break. Revenge feels amazing, There is no other 308 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: way to say it. It activates the brain's reward centers. 309 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: It gives us a surge of control, a surge of pleasure. 310 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 2: The hidden cost is, of course, that fades. But also 311 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: that the more we plot and rehearse revenge, the more 312 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: we anchor our emotional state to the person who has 313 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 2: hurt us. The more invested and intertwined our stories become. 314 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: The more we make our peace conditional on something, and 315 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: what it's conditional on is their pain. And this is 316 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: where this can get a little bit tricky. There's a 317 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: really interesting piece of research from Iowa State conducted in 318 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two which basically looked at six hundred participants. 319 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: They partnered them up for this experiment and the researchers 320 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: asked them to write just a really basic essay, and 321 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: they were told that these essays would be reviewed by 322 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: their partner. What was actually happening was that every single 323 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: person in this study had the same partner. It was 324 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: a research assistant, and that research assistant, slash. The research 325 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: team gave every single one of these people or at 326 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: least half of these people sorry really bad feedback. They 327 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: were like, this is really bad, this is poorly written, 328 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: this is terrible, you don't have any talent for this, 329 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: and they were trying to anger the participants. So all 330 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: of the participants were in this condition, all of them 331 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: had the bad feedback. But then participants were then split 332 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 2: into three different groups. The rumination group, these participants were 333 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: asked to hit a punching bag whilst looking at the 334 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: photo idea of their supposed partner, a distraction group, where 335 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: they were shown a picture of an athlete whilst being 336 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 2: asked to think about becoming super fit and punching the bag, 337 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 2: and finally a control group, where participants just were asked 338 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: to sit quietly for a little while after receiving their results. 339 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: What's really interesting is that the participants in the control group, 340 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: the ones who were just like sick quietly think about 341 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 2: the situation, They got over it faster. They showed the 342 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: lowest levels of anger and aggression compared to the groups 343 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: of participants who vented their feelings in some way processing 344 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: the pain individually. Counter to what we think encounter to 345 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: what our limbic system is going to tell us is 346 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 2: the best option, even the most calculated revenge came at 347 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: a psychological cost, and comes at a psychological cost. It 348 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: keeps you entangled with the person who hurt you. It 349 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: actually prolongs your emotional dependence on them, meaning that they 350 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: still have power even in their absence. This idea that 351 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 2: you want to get back at them still allows them 352 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: to exist within your mind. Someone described it to me 353 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: as like emotional quicksand the harder you struggle to make 354 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: someone else feel what you feel, the deeper you sink 355 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: into the very pain that you are trying to escape. 356 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 2: This echoes what a lot of emotional regulation theories will 357 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: tell us. When we feel anger, we reinforce its neural pathways. 358 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: Every time we replay the story, every fantasy that we 359 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: have of getting even, our brain strengthens the association between 360 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: pain and vengeance as the only solution. Here's also what's 361 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: strange about revenge. Sometimes we do get exactly what we 362 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: want it. You know, the apology never can. So we 363 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: did get even. They felt the sting, the balance in 364 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: theory was restored, and yet afterwards you don't actually feel righteous, 365 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: You don't actually feel better. Sometimes we actually feel worse 366 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: about ourselves. This has nothing to do with the other person. 367 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: It has everything to do with us. There is this 368 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: idea in psychology of effective forecasting. Essentially, it's our human 369 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: tendency to mispredict or falsely predict how future events will 370 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: make us feel. In the moment, we think that revenge 371 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: is going to make everything feel better, that justice will 372 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: be restored, everything's going to feel great. We think it 373 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: will cancel out our hurt, but we overestimate the emotional 374 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: payoff and we underestimate how terrible we're actually going to feel. 375 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: In particular, when we act on our desire for revenge, 376 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: it actually changes how we perceive ourselves. In that instance 377 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 2: of payback, you are no longer just the person who 378 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: was wronged. In this situation, you also become the person 379 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 2: who has wrong someone else. And that moral dissonance is 380 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable because it blurs the boundary between victim and perpetrator. 381 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: It splits us. That's how this is described. It splits 382 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: you between the person you were before the pain, the victim, 383 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: and the person who you became in response to it. 384 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: Not necessarily the villain, but not necessarily the victim either. 385 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: This neuroscientist and experimental psychologist Molly Crockett at Princeton. She 386 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: has shown that this kind of moral decision making, such 387 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 2: as do I seek revenge or not, feels good because 388 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 2: it activates the reward network. It also activates the empathy network, 389 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: especially this area called the ventromedia or prefrontal context that 390 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: like almost immediately makes you see someone else's pain and 391 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 2: feel it yourself, even if you don't like them. Like, 392 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: every single person has this structure of their brain, whether 393 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 2: it's as active as someone else's or not. But you know, 394 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: when you retaliate those empathy circuits, they don't switch off. 395 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 2: They keep processing the other person's pain. And the human 396 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 2: brain really struggles to feel pleasure and pain at the 397 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: same time, to feel empathy and pleasure at the same time. 398 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 2: So you have this like really uneasy like juxtaposition of 399 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: satisfaction and whether you acknowledge it or not, a sense 400 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 2: of sadness. This is part of why people often describe 401 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: revenge as like leaving a bad taste. A bunch of 402 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: social psychologists, one in particular, called rosen hadeit. They have 403 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: written about the different domains of disgust and how yes 404 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: you feel disgusted at like, oh this food is off 405 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: ah like this bad. You also feel moral discussed, moral 406 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 2: discussed at, having gone down to someone else's level, feeling 407 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: kind of dirty because of it. That's why when people 408 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: say things like I just I can't understand how they 409 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: could hurt me, can't understand how they could treat me 410 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: like this, that's actually a really good thing. Of Course, 411 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: you can't understand why they did that to you because 412 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: you're not like them at all. That's a really great thing. 413 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: Of Course, you can't empathize or try and recreate the 414 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: situation that made them hurt you because you're not them. 415 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: You're better than them in this situation. Like it feels 416 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: weird to say that, but you are. So should we 417 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 2: ever take the low road over the high road? Is 418 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: it ever acceptable morally to do unto others what they've 419 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: done to us? Human reality has wrestled with this question, 420 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: for literal like for thousands of years. So there's not 421 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: really anything new I can bring to this conversation other 422 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: than just summarize the two kind of arguments. On one hand, 423 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: there's that very ancient law of retaliation, you know, it's 424 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: famously captured in the Old Testament. Life for life, Eye 425 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: for eye tooth for tooth. In its original context, this 426 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: wasn't actually meant to encourage revenge. It was actually meant 427 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: to discourage cruelty. It didn't say, you know, don't seek revenge. 428 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: It was basically trying to say, like, there are boundaries 429 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: around vengeance that it needs to be proportional. You can't 430 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 2: kill someone because they stole your cow. You can't you know, 431 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: burn their house down because they knocked over your like 432 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: carrots Tand I don't know what my analogies are, but 433 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. In its early form, yeah, 434 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: revenge was totally normal ads. But justice, in this early sense, 435 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: it meant balance, It didn't mean escalation. However, as human 436 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: ethics have evolved, so does our understanding of justice. More 437 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: than like two millennia later, Martin Luther King Jr. He 438 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: reframed that same principle when he said, the old law 439 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: of eye for an eye, tooth through a tooth leaves 440 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 2: everyone blind and toothless. Right, And his point was that 441 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: vengeance multiplies suffering. It doesn't actually restore harmony, it corrodes it. 442 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: So what's changed in how we think about doing onto others? Well, 443 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: modern psychology really suggests that revenge just exists because there 444 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: is a tension between two competing moral systems. We are 445 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: taught that we need to seek justice. I feel like 446 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: that words come up a lot. We're also taught to 447 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 2: care about other people. Care says we should forgive. Justice 448 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: says they should go what they deserve. That is also 449 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: why revenge feels so kind of delicious at times, because 450 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: that moral friction is interesting and doesn't have a right answer, 451 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: so it's fascinating. We go back and forth and back 452 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: and forth. We don't really know which one we should 453 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: do because both feel equally important. Some philosophers, for example, 454 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: a manual can't have argued that justice does actually require 455 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: retribution and to maintain a moral society we need to 456 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: do that. But counter to this, like a lot more 457 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: humanist traditions do say that it doesn't produce good, Like, 458 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: the highest moral act isn't to mirror someone else's behavior, 459 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: it is to rise above it. Researchers who specifically study 460 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: empathy and moral reasoning, they describe this as moral elevation. 461 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: You will feel better when you witness, or encourage or 462 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: perform forgiveness. So if you are you know something just 463 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: terrible has happened to you, and you want to get revenge, 464 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: and you want to get revenge because you think it 465 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: will make you feel better. You might not like to 466 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: hear it, but you will experience more reward from not 467 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 2: necessarily forgiving somebody, but trying to maybe understand why they 468 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: did it, trying to maybe not justify it, but just 469 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: trying to make peace with it without them being involved 470 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: at all. Forgiveness actually gives us, neurologically a deeper sense 471 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: and kind of reward and sense of dignity and sense 472 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: of empowerment. Doesn't mean that forgiveness is easy, doesn't mean 473 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: that it's even possible. Sometimes choosing not to retaliate isn't 474 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: about moral superiority. It's just about refusing to hand over 475 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: more of your peace and power to a person who 476 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: already took more of it than they deserve. So maybe 477 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: the real question we're getting to here is whether revenge 478 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: is acceptable, but whether it is useful? Is it useful 479 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: for you? If we think about more productive options, radical 480 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: empathy is like one that's probably going to come up 481 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 2: a lot. Radical empathy is like the unconditional empathy and 482 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: forgiveness that we have for other people's actions. Doesn't mean 483 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: permitting them, doesn't mean letting them do it again, doesn't 484 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: mean forgetting. It's just a piece that we restore within 485 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: ourselves that you know, we're not We're going to release 486 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: the pain that we feel about this. We're going to 487 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: have empathy for them. It's about actually really acknowledging like 488 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: how someone else may have been hurt into their hurt, 489 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: may have been harmed into harming, may have been driven 490 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: to cruelty through ignorance or fear, And it is, without 491 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: a doubt, I think personally, a much more freeing approach. 492 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: We have seen it again with neurope, like with with 493 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: studies and with neuroimaging, like people who have this radical 494 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: empathy approach are actually happier, Isn't that like the best 495 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: revenge isn't success and happiness and peace the best revenge 496 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: of all? Probably, So maybe it's uncomfortable to get that 497 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: that might be the way to go about it. I 498 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: think that this approach personally is one that it is 499 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: one that I've adopted in the last year, and it 500 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: has made me just feel a little bit less mad 501 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: about the world. You know, I got into such a 502 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: rut this year thinking about the world as just like 503 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: full of terrible people who rule our lives and do 504 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: terrible things that we just have to watch and observe, 505 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: and that people are cruel and everybody is mad and 506 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: angry all the time. It wasn't a nice place to be. 507 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: But I started doing this exercise where when I felt 508 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: this way, I had to think about someone who I 509 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: was angered by or mad at, that I was going 510 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: to forgive and I was going to think positive things 511 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: about someone in my life in that day, in this 512 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: month that I really wanted to like be angry towards 513 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: who I could just in that moment symbolically forgive and 514 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: wish well. And that wasn't for them, even though of 515 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: course in some ways it was. It was for me. 516 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: People doing bad, hurtful things will have us believe that 517 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: there is no good in the world, But how can 518 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: that be true if we demonstrate good and if we 519 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: choose the love. So it actually does, I think, change 520 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: how you just view the balance of good and evil 521 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: in a way that's always going to mean that, I 522 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: don't know, it's always going to mean that you have 523 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 2: a more positive outlook. Obviously, not everyone deserves empathy, but 524 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: this again is not about these people. This is about you. 525 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: This is about you being able to be free of 526 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: whatever pain this person has called you caused you. In 527 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: one possible way, I think it's this like weird experience 528 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: that you have, which is that when you stop needing 529 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: someone else to suffer in order to feel okay, like 530 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 2: you actually really start to move on, which is again 531 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 2: annoying and it's frustrating. I love like this idea again 532 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: of like success is the best revenge, or like karma 533 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: will take care of it for you. I truly believe that. 534 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is that, like obviously I love 535 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: the science and I love the psychology, I don't have 536 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: any scientific research or scientific backing to prove that like 537 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 2: karma will take care of it for me. But anecdotally, 538 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: I just feel like everything kind of evens out eventually, 539 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,439 Speaker 2: and it just stops you from having to labor over 540 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: how you're going to get them back. It just stops 541 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 2: you from giving them more of your energy. Like they've 542 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: already done something bad to you that's bad enough. Don't 543 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: let them then, like take all these precious moments that 544 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 2: you could be spending giving love to others or doing 545 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: other things obviously easier said than done, if like everything 546 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 2: we talked about today is easier said than done, But 547 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: I do think that it's the more peaceful approach, and 548 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: I do think that like having had like real grudges 549 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: like about people in the past and at times like 550 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: not being able to let it go for many, many years, 551 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: the best thing that I've done is to just like 552 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: seriously and vigorously and aggressively focus on myself and to 553 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 2: just put everything into being successful, everything into being a 554 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 2: good person, so that like on the off chance they 555 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 2: come to check in on me, or they start watching 556 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 2: or whatever it is, or you know, they follow me 557 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: on Instagram, like I don't know, on the off chance 558 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 2: they try and side back in, like they can just 559 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: see that they try their best to like kind of 560 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: bring me down, and it like never worked. And the 561 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 2: thing is is that it actually doesn't matter whether they 562 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: ever do notice that I'm happy, or do notice that 563 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 2: I'm successful, or do notice that my life is good, 564 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 2: because when I started focusing on that stuff, I just 565 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: started stopped caring about them completely, and it was like 566 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 2: incredibly incredibly liberating, and it was just like so much 567 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: better than any form of retaliation. I feel like I've 568 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: done both, but silence and just like silence, no contact, 569 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 2: completely focusing on my own lane was the most empowering 570 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: thing that I could do. So those are my amusings 571 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: on revenge. That is the psychology of revenge and why 572 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 2: we seek it, why we want it, whether it's actually worthwhile, 573 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 2: and this like radical empathy success is the best revenge 574 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: charmatic kind of response to it. That it's kind of 575 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 2: a form of like acceptance therapy as well. Accepting that 576 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: you can't control other people, you can control your response, 577 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 2: Like that's really what's empowering about it. I'm gonna stop 578 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: going on and on about this because I feel like 579 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 2: I've drilled it into you by now. But I hope 580 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode if you have made it this far, 581 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 2: to leave a little olive emoji down below, to like 582 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 2: symbolize an olive branch, symbolize forgiveness, not necessarily the olive 583 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: branch that you need to extend to anybody, but like 584 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 2: just the symbol of what we're asking for for ourselves, 585 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: forgiving ourselves, for giving somebody else in our mind, not 586 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: through actions, and just being able to move forward without 587 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 2: seeking revenge. I want to thank our research assistant Libby 588 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: Cobbert for her contributions to this episode, and I want 589 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: to thank you guys for listening. This episode was actually 590 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: on YouTube, so it's not something I've talked about a lot, 591 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 2: but yeah, we now do YouTube episodes. If you want 592 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: to go and I guess rewatch it probably not, but 593 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: if you want to watch other episodes like this one, 594 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 2: you can go to YouTube a that's Psychology of Your Twenties. 595 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to us on substack if you 596 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 2: would like the transcript of this episode, it's free. I'll 597 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 2: leave a link in the description, and also follow us 598 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 2: on Instagram. If you want to see behind the scenes 599 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 2: or an episod so breakdown, or what we're planning for 600 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 2: the next year, or just want to keep in touch 601 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 2: with the podcast, that's the best place to find us. 602 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: But with all that said, with all that done, I'm 603 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 2: going to close the episode by saying thank you again 604 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: for listening. Until next time, be safe, be kind, be 605 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 2: gentle to yourself, don't always go after revenge. It might 606 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 2: not be as satisfying as you think. And we will 607 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: talk very very soon.