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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards. This is not the

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Speaker 2: first episode of the podcast we've done this year during

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Speaker 2: the official summer, but it's basically the official legal Christian summer, right, guys, team,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? It feels hot as hell outside today.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna it's but but but it only for the

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Speaker 1: next couple of days, and then it's gonna be in

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Speaker 1: the sixties.

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Speaker 2: Oh is it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And then and then and then mother Mother Nature will

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Speaker 1: water my garden and I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 2: Great, I'm glad that my will burn down yet.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Oh yeah, Katie Stoles here legend.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, how hot and or on fire? Is it

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Speaker 2: where you are?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, both of those things? I am in the mountains.

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Speaker 3: But it is an unpleasant Well, it's eighty five. It's

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Speaker 3: eighty five, not too bad.

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Speaker 4: We had some ninety degree days last week. But I

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Speaker 4: moved to the mountains thinking it would be cooler, and

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Speaker 4: boy was I wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets hot. It gets hot.

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Speaker 3: Lots of burnable brush all around me as well, So.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everything catches on fire out there. That's the beauty

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Speaker 2: of living out in the country.

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Speaker 4: And they defunded one of my They close one of

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Speaker 4: our fire stations anyway.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's always oh good.

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Speaker 2: It's not like California needs a lot of those wild

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Speaker 2: I'm only bringing up the summer because I had my first.

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Speaker 2: Every every year when it gets hot again, I remember, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I gotta put out sunscreen before I go run this time.

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Speaker 2: And then fifteen or so minutes into that first run

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Speaker 2: of the year with sunscreen, I remember, oh yeah, when

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Speaker 2: you sweat with sunscreen, it burns your eyes like a

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Speaker 2: son of a bitch. So if my eyes look like

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Speaker 2: red and buffy, it's because I just finished a run

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Speaker 2: in a shower and my entire face was on fire

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Speaker 2: from sunscreen.

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Speaker 3: I actually thought it was because you were crying. No, no, like, well,

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Speaker 3: you've been touched.

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Speaker 2: I would tell you if I was crying. But this

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Speaker 2: is simply self inflicted friendly fire.

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Speaker 4: Self inflicted friendly fire. Another piece of why are you're

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Speaker 4: wearing a sweater?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 4: It's it's cold, yeah, and we're talking about summer and

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Speaker 4: you're all bundled up.

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Speaker 2: I am wearing my my hoodie or my sweater.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Meanwhile, Katie and I are Lucy Gucy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I got my Laker's Luka Dontrid shirt on.

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Speaker 3: Shout out to my haters. Okay, anyways, Robert did the job.

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Speaker 1: Should we do it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Shall we do the job? Katie Stole? How are

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Speaker 2: you doing today podcasting wise?

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Speaker 3: Pretty good. I'm sitting here with my old pals, whom

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Speaker 3: I've missed. Miss I have.

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Speaker 2: Missed you too, and I have missed talking to you

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Speaker 2: about shitty people. So I wanted to give you a

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Speaker 2: special shitty person today. You know, we talk a lot

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Speaker 2: about old timey far right influencers on this podcast, you know,

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Speaker 2: the first the guys around the twenties and thirties and forties,

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Speaker 2: the og American fascists, but we haven't talked a lot

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Speaker 2: about like the history of women in the early history

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Speaker 2: of women in the American fascist movement, and the crucial

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Speaker 2: role different like female influencers have played aid in the

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Speaker 2: American far right. And so today we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about a woman you could call the first Candace Owens

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Speaker 2: or the first Laura Lumer. You can make a case

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Speaker 2: she's got bits of both of those, both Candace and Laura.

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Speaker 2: Oh a little bit to this lady we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about this week, Elizabeth Dilling. Have you heard that name?

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth Dilling. Do you see why I was like, we

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Speaker 3: need Katie for this episode. Yeah, okay, I'm excited. I

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Speaker 3: do not know anything about Elizabeth Dillon.

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Speaker 2: She's not super She is the B side who are

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Speaker 2: more famous fascist and I think you will recognize from

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Speaker 2: later on. But like again, because I guess of misogyny,

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Speaker 2: she never quite got as famous as her her male

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Speaker 2: fascist counterpart.

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Speaker 3: It's it's really the patriarchy on Netflix. Yeah, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, if you've watched it, they don't give a ship.

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Speaker 2: They barely know what's on their own network. Thanks Netflix,

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Speaker 2: thanks for the money. Elizabeth Elois Kirkpatrick was born on

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Speaker 2: April nineteenth, eighteen ninety four, in Chicago. Now, if eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety four in Chicago sound familiar to you, that's because

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Speaker 2: that is the same year in city as the Pullman Strike,

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Speaker 2: which is a legendary moment in labor history. Began as

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Speaker 2: a local Chicago strike that became a national boycott and

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Speaker 2: changed US labor law forever in the process, and that

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Speaker 2: strike itself was heavily inspired by the trials of the

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Speaker 2: eighteen ninety three economic panic that fractured the US economy

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Speaker 2: and helped fuel Eugene V. Debs's creation of the American

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Speaker 2: Railway Union. Right, so, Chicago at the time Elizabeth is

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Speaker 2: born is real hotbed for labor, for this burgeoning and

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Speaker 2: really exploding American left, which is growing into what some

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Speaker 2: might argue and probably still to this day, would count

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Speaker 2: as its most influential period in American histories, kind of

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Speaker 2: coming up as a result of the things that are

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Speaker 2: sort of happening right around the time Elizabeth is born.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of going to be important a little

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Speaker 2: that she's she's never going to adopt any of these

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Speaker 2: kind of politics, but they are happening around her and

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Speaker 2: very much in the environment that she's growing up in.

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Speaker 2: Her family is against a lot of these changes, but

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Speaker 2: she's going to grow up hearing about them because they're

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Speaker 2: right outside her door.

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Speaker 3: You know, sure, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So little Elizabeth comes into the world in a time

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Speaker 2: and a place that was hugely significant in the history

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Speaker 2: of American labor and the struggles of the workingman against

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Speaker 2: his bosses, and so it's appropriate for the person she

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Speaker 2: would become that even as an infant, she was entirely

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Speaker 2: separate and protected from the normal world of working class people.

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Speaker 2: This is happening outside her mansion gates. Basically, her father,

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Speaker 2: doctor Leete Kirkpatrick, was a famous surgeon and her mother,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Harding, was a homemaker. But both came from very

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Speaker 2: prominent families, right, so both of their families have some

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Speaker 2: degree of like financial comfort. And her dad, at least

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Speaker 2: initially is this like famous doctor the Kirkpatrick's. Her dad's

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Speaker 2: family had been wealthy landowners in Ireland, but had fled

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Speaker 2: near the end of the eighteen hundreds and settled in Virginia.

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Speaker 2: Liz would Laters describe her father as coming from Scott's

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Speaker 2: Irish stock, and some googling around has given me coust

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Speaker 2: to think that her her family Basically, if you've ever

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Speaker 2: heard of like the Irish Land Wars, this period of

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Speaker 2: time in which like there's a lot of conflict in

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Speaker 2: Ireland over like who gets to own what land, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of conflict as a result of these like

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Speaker 2: absentee landlords that piss off a lot of people. Well,

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Speaker 2: her her ancestors are some of the absentee lands. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: because they're like a Scottish family who winds up owning

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Speaker 2: a lot of land in Ireland, you know, yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I don't know that the Kirkpatricks had to flee their

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Speaker 2: family estate because they were brutal landlords, but my research

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Speaker 2: does make that seem likely, and it's always a good yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We don't talk enough about Ireland's land wars.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like we're setting up for a family that

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Speaker 4: does not learn from those lessons. Perhaps perhaps they're here

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Speaker 4: also resenting.

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Speaker 3: The different classes around them. I don't know, and has.

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Speaker 2: Like a long time grudge against anyone trying to fix

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Speaker 2: things because they just see that as like you're fucking

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Speaker 2: with my big you know, like that's the people that

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Speaker 2: she comes from. So let's talk a little about the

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Speaker 2: Irish land Wars because people don't often enough, and it's

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Speaker 2: a fun bit of history. Only about five percent of

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Speaker 2: the land in Ireland from the late seventeen hundreds to

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Speaker 2: the end of the eighteen hundreds was owned by Irish Catholics,

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that Irish Catholics were most of Ireland.

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Speaker 2: People got very angry about this and it led to

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Speaker 2: successive waves of protests and even violent insurgent direct action.

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Speaker 2: It is very possible then, that the Kirkpatricks had to

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Speaker 2: flee because they wound up on either side of this dispute,

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Speaker 2: but the fact that they had a family estate and

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Speaker 2: came to the US with money makes me suspect that

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Speaker 2: they weren't fighting for the freedom of poor men. Right,

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Speaker 2: These are probably on one specific side of.

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Speaker 3: The land wars pretty solid gas.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the Harding family, elizabeth'smother's people came from a long

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Speaker 2: line of Anglican bishops, which also makes it like clear

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Speaker 2: that her dad's people were foreign landlords at some point. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she grows up fairly well off. In a two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two article for the Journal of American Studies, writer

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Speaker 2: Christine Erickson describes her family as financially comfortable, upper middle class. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's that's that's where they're coming from. Her parents have

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Speaker 2: enough money that, even though these are pretty rough times,

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Speaker 2: they're able to travel fairly regularly. But they're not able

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Speaker 2: to send the kids abroad with them. So Liz grows

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Speaker 2: up not traveling much yourself. But her mom and her

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Speaker 2: aunts are always visiting Europe spending their inheritance, and so

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Speaker 2: she grows up hearing about that.

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Speaker 4: Sure, okay, yeah, I mean for the parents anyway.

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Speaker 2: Sounds fun. Probably wants to bring your kids.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, kids, you had to stay mom and tenn are

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Speaker 3: off for a.

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Speaker 2: Bit, Mammadet are off for it. But also in this

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Speaker 2: period of time, mammadett are off for a bit for

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Speaker 2: like eight months because yeah, yeahs you're going to be

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Speaker 2: raised by some lady we hired by. See you when you're.

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Speaker 3: Nine, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Be back in a year, baby, Yeah, be back in

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Speaker 2: a year. Maybe her fat died when she was relatively young,

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Speaker 2: and this was he dies a sudden and surprising death,

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Speaker 2: and this leaves her mother in charge of the family.

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Speaker 2: But it says a lot about their overall financial state

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Speaker 2: that even though her father dies pretty early on, this

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Speaker 2: never affects them financially as far as we can see, right,

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Speaker 2: they remain comfortable, which means they're very well off. So

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Speaker 2: she's going to grow up with extremely conservative values and politics.

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Speaker 2: But she's also going to grow up because her mom

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Speaker 2: is the only one running things. After a while, she's

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Speaker 2: going to run up very grow very used to seeing

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Speaker 2: a woman call the shots right, and this is going

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Speaker 2: to have a conflicting effect on her, right because she

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Speaker 2: both comes to believe that like traditional values are best

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Speaker 2: and also she's used to women being in charge in

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Speaker 2: her own.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's that kind of tough to square at

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Speaker 4: that point in time.

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Speaker 1: I guess I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: as are you Robert.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. My mom reminded, it's very reminiscent of this,

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Speaker 2: where like she was a very conservative person and also

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Speaker 2: did not understand why men should be doing anything like

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Speaker 2: Those were two ideas that co existed within her. As

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Speaker 2: Amy Dye wrote of Elizabeth in her graduate thesis for

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Speaker 2: East Tennessee University for East Tennessee State University, quote, if

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Speaker 2: her father had not died, she would not have been

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Speaker 2: exposed to such a strong, independent woman as her mother.

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Speaker 2: Before doctor Lafayette Kirkpatrick's death, he strongly believed the woman

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Speaker 2: belonged in the home and away from both politics and business.

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Speaker 2: In contrast, her brother, Lafayette was encouraged to pursue a

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Speaker 2: business career and at the age of twenty three, had

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Speaker 2: acquired financial security through land development in Hawaii. He subsequently

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Speaker 2: traveled around the world for three years with Baron von

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Speaker 2: Zepplin and continued to lead a privileged life until his

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Speaker 2: death in nineteen forty eight. Again, for any of the family,

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Speaker 2: of the money she comes from, her brother is best

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Speaker 2: friends and traveling buddies with Baron von Zepplin. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: get much older money than that. Then Baron von Zepplin

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Speaker 2: having her road trip with the Zeppelin guy. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're doing fine even with dad out of the picture.

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Speaker 2: Little Elizabeth would be described during her childhood as quote

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Speaker 2: highly emotional and an eager girl with a dramatically sculptured face,

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Speaker 2: enormous brown eyes and a quick giddy laugh. Somewhat lonely,

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Speaker 2: and casting about in search of a career, which is

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Speaker 2: also interesting. She's a very she will always espouse very

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Speaker 2: traditional values. She's always looking for a job for herself.

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Speaker 2: She never is interested in just being a homemade and

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Speaker 2: not you know, no problem with that, but she is

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Speaker 2: never interested in just sitting at home and raising kids.

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Speaker 2: She wants to do something out in the world that

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Speaker 2: people are aware of.

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Speaker 4: It's actually a very fascinating dynamic for somebody. I mean

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Speaker 4: we're seeing it still to this day. Yes, your mother,

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Speaker 4: I guess was this way. But this is this big

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Speaker 4: push in the Conservative party for traditional values, and yet

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Speaker 4: they're going to be advocating for their own careers. It

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Speaker 4: seems counterintuitive but interesting for this woman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's the Philish Loveley thing right of

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Speaker 2: like I don't think women should be doing any of

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Speaker 2: this stuff. Also, as a woman, I really like to

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Speaker 2: have a big career.

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Speaker 3: And also like modern times, that's very Erica Kirk. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's very Erica Kirk. That is exactly what I was thinking.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean if either of you have seen

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Speaker 1: any of like the interview clips from tpusa's like first

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Speaker 1: big like women's event that Erica Kirk led, it's all

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Speaker 1: when people are interviewed, it's all like this where they're

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Speaker 1: like all over the map on if they're like, well

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Speaker 1: women can have it all, but they have to do this,

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Speaker 1: but women could have it all, but not those women.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting coverage just to like get an insight

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Speaker 1: into that ideological thinking.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating anytime you have to be you have that

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Speaker 2: much cognitive dissonance in your belief system that always winds

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Speaker 2: up being fascinating on some level.

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Speaker 1: And like in a way that I just there's no

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Speaker 1: way there would be an Erica Kirk without a Liz Dilling,

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Speaker 1: without a philistathe without it.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's all.

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Speaker 2: She had to crawl so that Erica Kirk could.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know who's doing it whatever.

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Speaker 1: So Erica Kirk could come out with a fire boom,

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Speaker 1: yeah behind her.

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Speaker 2: So Elizabeth attends grammar school in a secondary school. She's

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Speaker 2: going to nice schools. Her parents pay money to get

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Speaker 2: her quality education. She studies the concert harp at a

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Speaker 2: Catholic academy, and she graduates from a girls school and

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Speaker 2: is noted as having an almost photographic memory. Her early

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Speaker 2: interests were and this is not a normal like, her

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Speaker 2: education's weird because I can't graph it directly onto a

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Speaker 2: normal one. Because she is both doing like normal primary school,

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Speaker 2: secondary school and also Catholic Academy women's preparatory finishing school.

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Speaker 2: Like she spends years in schools that are just to

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Speaker 2: like teach you how to behave as a woman. Like

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Speaker 2: that's part of part of her schooling because she's like

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Speaker 2: an upper class lady. Right. It takes a lot. You

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Speaker 2: gotta know where all the forks go and stuff. I imagine

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Speaker 2: there's more to it than forks, but forks seem like

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Speaker 2: they're pretty key.

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Speaker 3: Stand up straight? How does smile?

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Speaker 2: Stand up straight? That's right? How to ride side saddle?

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Speaker 2: There's I know there's a sadder. There's a ry you're

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Speaker 2: supposed to write as a lady. That's the polite way,

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Speaker 2: So there's the rude way. Maybe side saddle is the

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Speaker 2: rude way. I don't know much about it, hort.

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Speaker 4: I really feel like side saddle should be reserved for

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Speaker 4: men anatomically speaking, but I digress.

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Speaker 2: Look the horse girls can can correct us, because I

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Speaker 2: don't know much about riding horses. I know there's a

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Speaker 2: way you're supposed to write, and there's a way that

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Speaker 2: you're not supposed to ride as an old timey woman,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know. I don't know which is which. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she goes to all these different weird schools. She learns

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Speaker 2: how to be a lady and a good Catholic. She's

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Speaker 2: interested primarily in both classical music and the French language.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually know if she ever gets what you'd

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Speaker 2: call a normal college degree, but during her time in

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Speaker 2: Catholic school, she was made to study the Bible. And

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Speaker 2: so this is kind of like knowledge and faith are

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Speaker 2: always weirdly wrapped up with her, but also knowledge and

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Speaker 2: like the performance of societal roles, are always directly locked together.

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Speaker 2: She never just gets an education that's an education on

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Speaker 2: its own. It's always an education, partly in how to

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Speaker 2: exist in a certain social hierarchy. If that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: It does make sense.

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Speaker 2: As Amy Die writes in nineteen seventeen, as the first

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Speaker 2: US forces are getting their it's dirty in World War One,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth meets a man described as a young army officer

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Speaker 2: from Arizona who quote introduced her to a completely new

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Speaker 2: way of thinking. This is her first fascist boyfriend. So

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Speaker 2: she meets this mystery army officer who starts saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: you got to read these books, right, and so he

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Speaker 2: starts giving her cocked and Nietzsche and Hegel and next quote,

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Speaker 2: after introducing Elizabeth to these forward thinkers, he contradicted himself

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Speaker 2: by saying women did not count as human beings. Oh

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Speaker 2: so he's like, he's you need to read this Nietzsche.

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Speaker 2: But you're a woman, so you can't read it. You're

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Speaker 2: not a person. But here you should have some Hegel.

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Speaker 3: But here read it. But you're not really a person

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Speaker 3: a woman, and you're too dumb. You're not gonna get it.

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Speaker 3: But here, God is dead.

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Speaker 2: I get the She doesn't say this, but I get

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Speaker 2: the feeling. He's like, intermittently flirting with her and yelling

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Speaker 2: at her like it's one of those kind of weird guys,

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Speaker 2: and she's totally under it.

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Speaker 4: If you had ever been flirted with by a fascist

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Speaker 4: soldier from Arizona, you would know.

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Speaker 2: That the game, that's part of the day, that's that

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Speaker 2: what works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, she.

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Speaker 2: Gets that beautiful experience and you can tell it completely

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Speaker 2: awakens her. Right. This is where she becomes an ideological

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Speaker 2: thinker for the first time. And the fact that her

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Speaker 2: ideological awakening comes courtesy of a man who does not

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Speaker 2: consider her human is very telling and very bleak. But

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Speaker 2: what else are you gonna say.

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying I have empathy because I have a

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Speaker 4: feeling she's not gonna be someone I like.

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Speaker 3: How well, it's just a holy shit, it's pretty fucked up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys can check out. Just imagine like trying

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Speaker 2: to tell your like your other lady friends, like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this wonderful guy, he introduced me all these great books.

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Speaker 2: I'm really thinking in new ways about like what makes

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Speaker 2: a person a person. I don't think I'm one. According

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Speaker 2: to him anyway, he's nice, He's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: At any rate, this does not last. I really wish

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Speaker 2: I knew what happened with this guy. Maybe he was

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Speaker 2: just too much finincell, or maybe he goes out and

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Speaker 2: it dies out in world We hope he guy and

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Speaker 2: dies in World War One. Yeah, I'm hoping the old

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Speaker 2: dub dub uno does a solid on that one. At

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Speaker 2: any rate, not long after whatever happens with this guy

359
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Speaker 2: in she continues reading philosophy, and she starts thinking really

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Speaker 2: hard about the underlying order of society. And as she's

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Speaker 2: thinking about this, Elizabeth meets her future husband, Albert Walwick Dilling. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't think Albert Walwick Dilling is the kind of

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Speaker 2: guy who's gonna tell her she's not a person. He's

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Speaker 2: the kind I get the feeling. He's very ideologically malleable.

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Speaker 2: I think he's naturally more conservative, so he's comfortable with

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Speaker 2: her ideology. But I also think he goes along with

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Speaker 2: her a lot, you know, okay, And I think he

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Speaker 2: gets One of the things he gets from her is

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Speaker 2: that he gets to pretend and feel like and she

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Speaker 2: will reinforce that he is in charge while also being

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Speaker 2: in charge of a lot, and so he doesn't have

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Speaker 2: to be in charge of as much feeling.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly what you mean you've seen these kinds of relationships, right,

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: She's like, I defer to my man, But she's the

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Speaker 4: one that's telling him, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Defer to my man. God help him. If he has

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Speaker 2: an idea of.

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Speaker 4: His own, I defer my man as long as it's

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Speaker 4: he goes with what.

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Speaker 2: I said exactly. So at the time he was a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: he had trained as an engineer. Originally, he had been

383
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Speaker 2: born in Salt Lake City back in eighteen ninety two.

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Speaker 2: By the time he was ready for college, and I

385
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Speaker 2: don't think he was Mormon. I think it probably would

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Speaker 2: have mentioned that she certainly is not, and I don't

387
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Speaker 2: think she would have been cool with a practicing Mormon

388
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Speaker 2: given her beliefs, but I'm not really sure. By the

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Speaker 2: time he's ready for college, he migrated to the Chicago

390
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Speaker 2: area and he took the Illinois bar in nineteen seventeen. Now,

391
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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Harardi refused one marriage proposal by the time she

392
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Speaker 2: met Albert, but for some reason, this guy sweeps her

393
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Speaker 2: off her feet and after nine months the two are

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Speaker 2: married and the romantic city of Laporte, Indiana. This would

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Speaker 2: have been made of nineteen eighteen. Yes, yes, the city

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Speaker 2: of love itself, the city of unbridled fucking. That's what

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Speaker 2: we call Laporte Indiana. That's the city motto. Actually, Laporte Indiana.

398
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Speaker 2: It's a lee to buy condoms here, you know, Just

399
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Speaker 2: so you know, Laporte. Everybody catch the fever and something else,

400
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Speaker 2: because again, condoms are illegal. Yeah. After this point, Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, though,

401
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Speaker 2: is now Elizabeth Dilling. And this is the name that

402
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Speaker 2: she's going to be famous under. Right, everyone knows her

403
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 2: as Elizabeth Dilling. That's how she becomes Elizabeth Dillon. She

404
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 2: marries this Albert Dilling guy. She's twenty four years old

405
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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighteen, and after a brief honeymoon, she and

406
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Speaker 2: Albert moved to a suburb of Chicago, Wilmot, where they

407
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 2: borrow money and buy a home. Albert claims that when

408
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Speaker 2: they got married, he had quote nothing to offer but

409
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 2: a good education, bright prospects, good help, and some sizeable debts,

410
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Speaker 2: but Liz had family money of her own. In just

411
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Speaker 2: two years, Albert was made chief engineer of the Chicago

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Speaker 2: Sanitary District, and his career would continue to rise over

413
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Speaker 2: the coming years. While he was making a career for

414
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Speaker 2: himself as a high level engineer for one of the

415
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 2: largest cities on Earth. He would eventually become the city

416
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Speaker 2: engineer for Union Station Development and the Engineer Assistant to

417
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Speaker 2: the Commission for Public Works. Liz was inheriting the money

418
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Speaker 2: that would ensure she never needed to utilize public works herself.

419
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Speaker 2: Her husband helps make sure that like the city's public

420
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Speaker 2: like transit works, and Elizabeth inherits enough money that she

421
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Speaker 2: doesn't have to use it.

422
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so only imagine they're the like twenty twenty six

423
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Speaker 1: dating profiles.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, these two and twenty twenty six are

425
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 2: definitely the weird natalist freaks who wind up on the

426
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: news every six months talking about like there're eleven kids

427
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 2: that they're having to change the world with Elon Musk.

428
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, Liz Dilling definitely like puts her credit scare on

429
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Speaker 1: her dating profile.

430
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I can see her having an interview with Vanity

431
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Speaker 2: Fair where she slaps her child and a fucking diner. Yeah.

432
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Speaker 2: So she receives enormous inheritances from two aunts and then

433
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: in the mid nineteen thirties from her mother. So she's

434
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 2: very comfortably off even though her husband is not making

435
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,239
Speaker 2: a lot of money immediately, but her husband, you know,

436
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: is making comfortable middle class incomes. You have inherits a

437
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: lot of money and a good income. They're doing quite well,

438
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: and they're doing well enough that in short order before

439
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: either of them is, you know, particularly old, they're going

440
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 2: to have enough money to do what wealthy people do

441
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: in this period of time in particular, which is go

442
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: on really long and elaborate vacations all the time. So

443
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 2: from nineteen twenty three to nineteen thirty nine, the Dillings

444
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: travel oversea ten times, and these are all multi week

445
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: or multi month excursions. We're talking like orient Express type shit,

446
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 2: where you're on trains and in fancy boats, you've got

447
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 2: sleeper car like that. These are not like casual vacations.

448
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: You can't just jaunt somewhere quickly, right.

449
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, this is this is yeah, like her mother

450
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 4: months long also famously a bad.

451
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 3: Time for the world financially to not have needs to

452
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 3: just travel like this exactly.

453
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: I mean they're mostly traveling, although they are through all

454
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 2: the thirties too, you know. So yeah, like a lot

455
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: of it is during a really rough time.

456
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not the main takeaway here, but I yeah,

457
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 4: they're doing certainly fine. It says a lot about well,

458
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,959
Speaker 4: what they're doing while the rest that the world was burning.

459
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well while the rest of the world was falling

460
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: to fascis, And they're going on like long elaborate vacations, right,

461
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: They're doing very they're very comfortable. Their first trip overseas,

462
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 2: they get to tour England, the Low Countries, France, and

463
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: then Italy, at which point they enter the Vatican City

464
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: and have a private audience with the Pope. So they

465
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: have like, oh money, Like that's how comfortable she is.

466
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: Amy Die writes that the Dillings had booked this trip

467
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 2: in part to get a first hand account of the

468
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: aftermath of the First World War, right, Like that's a

469
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: big that's at least what Elizabeth wants her friends to

470
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: believe that, Like, we're not just doing this as a vacation.

471
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 2: We're doing this to get an eye on how Europe's handled,

472
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: you know, after the war, right, Like that's the way

473
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: that she frames this.

474
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 4: Making my eyes roll back and it is Okay, here's

475
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 4: we're just gonna go study.

476
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: We're gonna go check it out. And I can tell

477
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 2: you from experience, if you're in like an active war zone,

478
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: there are often a lot of people who are eager

479
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: to talk about what's happening to them right now, in

480
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: part because they hope that like maybe international attention will

481
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: like help their situation, and like it's happening right now,

482
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 2: and they want people to know about the horrible stuff.

483
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: When you go to a place that has just been

484
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: at war, like a couple of years ago, they don't

485
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: usually want to talk about it. They're kind of trying

486
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: to forget it. So this just for a vacation people

487
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: like nineteen nineteen, people wandering around like don't want to

488
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 2: want to talk to a bunch of America's big Yeah,

489
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: what was the war like here in dun You know,

490
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 2: was it fun? Did you enjoy it? Like people wod

491
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 2: not have a good time and don't want her shit.

492
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 4: Completely devastated trying to recover from uh yeah no bad

493
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 4: timing bit.

494
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you do you think it was? Liz bad?

495
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 2: And this seems to be what the Dillings encountered. People

496
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: are not super eager to talk to them, As Dye's

497
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: account says, quote, Dilling became frustrated by the anti American

498
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: attitudes that she had encountered amongst the British and the French.

499
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: The former Allies often gave the United States no credit

500
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: for helping win the First World War and often complained

501
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: that the United States had not entered the war sooner. So, yeah,

502
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 2: I think people didn't really want to talk about the war,

503
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 2: and like folks who'd lost all their money and like

504
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: their kids didn't want to talk about how great America

505
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 2: was for eventually getting involved, like some fucking British family

506
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: who lost everything. This is gonna be like, yeah, thanks guys,

507
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: really glad you got here in nineteen seventeen, right on

508
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: the dot.

509
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 4: Hh yeah, yeah, it's not surprising, not surprising.

510
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 2: She takes this personally. She takes this as an insult

511
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: to herself. On the steamship home, an English traveler sees

512
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: a member of her party who's wearing like a sailor

513
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: outfit with US Navy printed on it, and he just

514
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: like starts shit talking like that. But it's like, ah,

515
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 2: your Navy's a joke, you Americans, And Liz responds, I

516
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: don't know if it's such a joke. It's been able

517
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: to lick Great Britain twice and I think it could

518
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: do it again. And first off, Liz, the last time

519
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 2: it beat Gray Britan was nineteen twelve like or eighteen

520
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: twelve like, Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if

521
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: we should be bragging about that in nineteen eighteen. Just

522
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: seems a little ahead of the eight ball. It's not

523
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 2: been it's been a while since we fought the British Navy.

524
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, Liz the And also, it's just like,

525
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: what a ridiculous reaction to someone saying that he's clearly

526
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: like frustrated that you're walking around talking about what hot

527
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: shit your military is when you just kind of sltered

528
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: in the last minute of like a devastating war. I

529
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: get why the Europeans are pissed at her.

530
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: Absolutely. This woman has no self awareness.

531
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 2: No, and this situation, this whole encounter with his rude

532
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: person on the boat, causes her to make a vow

533
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: then and there that if another war ever came to Europe,

534
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: she will work herself to the bone to keep the

535
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: United States out of it because of these ungrateful Europeans.

536
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: I'll make sure we never enter another war to support

537
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: Europe again. You know, that's Liz's encounter here, or it'll

538
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: take it. It's really sad.

539
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: I'm not surprising I mean, no, I'm always whenever I'm here.

540
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 4: It's impossible to not draw parallels to modern day I've

541
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 4: already done it several times.

542
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: But it's like, it's so pathetic.

543
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 4: How easily some people get offended and vowed to make

544
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 4: that their idea of an entire place for the rest

545
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 4: of their life.

546
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 3: Anyway.

547
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like I think they didn't even have anything

548
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: to do with honestly, But anyway, you know what else

549
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: is sad? Not listening to ads?

550
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: Heartbreak? What You're right, it is such a heartbreak. I

551
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: love ads.

552
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: We're back and we're talking about how we never skip

553
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: the ads on podcasts. Never. What does that mean? Sometimes

554
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: I listen to extra ads, you know. Sometimes I listen

555
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: to ads that aren't even for podcasts. Sometimes they just

556
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: fall asleep directly in front of a billboard, you know,

557
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: so I can worship it.

558
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: Do you have an ad playlist too for bedtime?

559
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: Yes, it's only an ad playlist for bedtime to be fair.

560
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: All right, So let's get back to Liz Dilly. So, yeah,

561
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: Liz's just had this experience heading home from Europe where

562
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: these ungrateful Europeans were not deferent enough to the US

563
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: Navy so she decides to stop the US from ever

564
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 2: helping Europe in a war again. I don't know if

565
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: I believe that actually happened, in part because Liz is

566
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: going to be like anti war during World War Two

567
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: because she's a fascist. And I think maybe she invinced

568
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: this story because it's like a more palatable truth as

569
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: opposed to like, I don't want you used to get

570
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: involved in World War two because I like the Nazis.

571
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: She could be like, no, they're so ungrateful after all

572
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: the rudeness they showed us last time, Why would we

573
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: risk our lives again for them? You know. I kind

574
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: of think maybe she just makes this up after the fact,

575
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: but it's possible that this actually happens. Like, I don't

576
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: know one way or the other. Despite their frustrations with Europeans,

577
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: the Dillings continue to book regular trips abroad throughout the

578
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: twenties and the thirties, and at first this seems to

579
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: have been mainly for the sake of hedonism, but I

580
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 2: think Elizabeth's strong Catholic upbringing makes her feel guilty for

581
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: just traveling to have fun. I think this is why

582
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: for most of these there's always a second purpose like, oh,

583
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: we wanted to explore how World War One affected them,

584
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: or we want to she's going to explore communist countries

585
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: and at a certain point in the future. And I

586
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: think part of it is that she feels bad about

587
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: just spending her money on vacations because she's she's fundamentally

588
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: a Catholic in her soul. I mean, she's an Episcopalian

589
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: as an adult, but she was raised Catholic, and you

590
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: never get over that shit. I think there's an element

591
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: of that of like, this trip has to be more

592
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: than just a trip, otherwise I'm not being a good person, right, hmm.

593
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: Whatever the reason not being a good person, She's not

594
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: being a good person anyway, but she's this is important

595
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: to her, so she starts convincing her husband to let

596
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: her book trips like their yearly vacations to the communist countries,

597
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: which have just started to be a thing. Right. The

598
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: communist revolution, you know, has just swept over what had

599
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: been Imperial Russia, and it's starting to take other places too,

600
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: So this is like the first time in which you

601
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: could have gone to a communist country, right, kind of

602
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties, nineteen twenties, and thirties, And so

603
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: she starts convincing her husband to start booking trips for

604
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: these different for like Soviet Russia, right, because she wants

605
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: to study the impact of communism and eventually write books

606
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: about it. So in the summer of nineteen thirty one,

607
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: her husband helps the books trips to Moscow and Leningrad. Now,

608
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: Elizabeth is later going to write a book about what

609
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: she saw in the Soviet Union, and she will express

610
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: her horror at the nightmare she saw there at the

611
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: quote atheism, sex, degeneracy, broken homes, and class hatred that

612
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: she witnessed in the post revolutionary USSR. And indeed, the

613
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: Soviet Union at the start of the thirties was a

614
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: nation that had recently endured great horrors, a horrific civil war,

615
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: and was currently enduring horrors the horrors of the Stalinis era. Right,

616
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: it would very soon endure even worse horrors, the horrors

617
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: of the Nazi invasion. So you know, it's a tough

618
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: time Russia in the thirties. There are plenty of things

619
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: that Dylan could have seen in Russia in nineteen thirty

620
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: one that are horrific, right, plenty of things that would

621
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: have actually reflected badly on the Soviet government. However, it's

622
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: important I let you know that her hatred of the

623
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: Soviet Union is not based on any of those things

624
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: when you think about the actual bad things that were

625
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: occurring in the US. Sorry in nineteen thirty one, Elizabeth

626
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: isn't allowed to see any of them. She's on a

627
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: vacation that she's booked through the Soviet government. They have minders.

628
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: She's not traveling freely, she's only visiting the areas they're

629
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: allowed to visit. And so she's not being horrified because

630
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: she's like snuck through and seen some evidence of a

631
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: fuck up that the government was covering up of Starvey.

632
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: She's angry because she's seeing like churches that have been

633
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: turned into like art museums, and she's.

634
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: Like she's angry at the beautiful, losing.

635
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: Her mind, she's losing her mind at it right, and

636
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: she's pissed about like, oh, the people here aren't as

637
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: well fed as Americans and like where they under the czar?

638
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: Is that the Soviet Union's fault or is that just

639
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: the fact that like it's Russia in nineteen thirty one, Like, again,

640
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to minimize the faults of the Stalinists there,

641
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: of the Soviet particularly, But you can't just be like, wow,

642
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: people aren't as big in Russia in nineteen thirty one,

643
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: that's just communism, Nah, Liz, that goes back further. I'm sorry,

644
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: hun like that, Yeah.

645
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: Like the laziest possible takeaway from what she Yazumov saw,

646
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 4: But okay, yeah, yes.

647
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: And again, the Soviet Union is very well aware that

648
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: Western countries are spying on them constantly. They are looking

649
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: for people like Liz Dilling in these trips. So again,

650
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any chance Liz would have seen

651
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: any actual, like bad things, right, She's just making this

652
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: up based on like shit she sees that's like uncomfortable

653
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: to her. And the primary things that she sees over

654
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: there that are uncomfortable to her is that she doesn't know.

655
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: There aren't rich people in the Soviet Union that she sees, right.

656
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: She notices none of the people of my class are here, right,

657
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: there's no fancy places to go, there's no high end hotels, right,

658
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: and the society is openly atheistic, and that's what she

659
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: is reacting to. Christine Eriksson summarizes Dilling how Dilling would

660
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: later describe her trip. She noted with concern the idle

661
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: crowds and abandoned children roaming the streets, bordered by run

662
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: down buildings and desperate need of repair. She described in

663
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: vivid detail the poor, miserable workers' stores where the proletariat

664
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: was forced to shop. What little food stocked the shelves

665
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: was overpriced and fly infested, the site of Christian churches

666
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: being converted into anti religious museums, and the shock of

667
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: seeing nude bathers swim in a river under the shadow

668
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: of one Moscow church, an event Dilan captured on film

669
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: clearly signaled to her that communism bred atheism and encouraged immorality.

670
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: So whatever bad things are actually happening in the Soviet Union,

671
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: remember when Dyling talks about the horrors of communism, She's

672
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: talking about nude bathers right near a church. That's what's

673
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: scares her.

674
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 4: That's what scares her, not anything else.

675
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: That's stalin, you.

676
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: Know, offended by poverty and atheism. Yeah, abandoned children.

677
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: They're naked.

678
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: She was at London.

679
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are abandoned children in Moscow in nineteen

680
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: thirty one, because they've just had a civil war that

681
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 2: kills millions of people, millions and millions of people, that

682
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: was vastly exacerbated by Western involvement. By the way, you know,

683
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: like you can't again, you can you can't look at

684
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: any of the stuff she's seeing and just be like, well,

685
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: this is all the fault of communism. That's just silliness, right,

686
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: and so ironically, while Liz is going to spend the

687
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: rest of her life talking about the nightmare world that

688
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: she saw, the things she's scared about are like any

689
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: effort to reduce inequality, in any effort to reduce the

690
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: power of the church. That's what actually upsets her. She

691
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: would also complain later in her writing that Soviet men

692
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: seem to have no interest in her at all. They

693
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: didn't find her hot the bedbuts in the Grand Hotel

694
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: in Moscow were wild about me, the listless waiters not

695
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: at all, which Ericson suggests is Elizabeth trying to display

696
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: quote an unsettling image of Communism's power to emasculate. How

697
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: could any man ignore dylling these men are even straight

698
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: if they don't like me. Like again, her big issues

699
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: with Stalinist Russia are nude bathers. I'm not hot.

700
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: Just honestly, it just does not sound like the place

701
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: for you to vacation.

702
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: You know, I don't think I think you picked the

703
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: wrong place to vacation. I don't think we take a

704
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: thirty one was for you.

705
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, your timing is all off.

706
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: Your timing's really bad. If you've gotten to Moscow in

707
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, things might have been a lot more interesting

708
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: Liz been, at least from my perspective. So her call

709
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: to action came during a tour of the Moscow Museum

710
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: of the Revolution, where a party guide told her tour

711
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: group that the World Revolution, which had started in Russia,

712
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: had now expanded to China and would end in the

713
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: United States. He then showed them an exhibit that featured

714
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: a fictional map of the future world where a communist

715
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: US had renamed all of its cities. And you know

716
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: this is obvious propaganda, right, Like, this isn't an evidence

717
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: of the actual capabilities, as we all know of the

718
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: Soviet Union's ability to infiltrate the United States. But this

719
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: works perfectly on Liz. She and this is everything she

720
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: needed too in terms of like a useful thing she

721
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: could carry home for her propaganda so when she gets home,

722
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: she is eager to preach the bad word. Elizabeth claims

723
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: that when she tried to tell her friends, her suburbanite

724
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: intellectual friends and my own episcopal minister about what she'd

725
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: seen over there, they expressed bitter opposition to her telling

726
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: the truth about Russia. Now, I don't know how much

727
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: I believe that. I can't imagine people who are better

728
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: informed in her saying, Hey, Liz, like, there's obvious issues

729
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: going on over there and with that government, but it

730
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like you actually know anything about those issues.

731
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 2: It seems like you're just angry that there are any

732
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: like luxury stores and they don't believe in God, and

733
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: maybe that's dumb. Like I wonder if maybe that's what

734
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: her friends were saying. It is like, listen, doesn't seem

735
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: like you actually know anything about the problems over there.

736
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 2: It seems like you're angry the hotels weren't nice.

737
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, are you an elitist snob? But maybe I mean

738
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 3: happening here?

739
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: Do you suck?

740
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: Yoh? Okay, is it possible you just suck?

741
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: Is it possible that you're kind of an asshole?

742
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: Wow?

743
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: I am imagining her friends always being relieved when she

744
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: goes on one of the big journeys and then they're.

745
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: Like, oh my god, she's out for a couple months.

746
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: She's gonna bring out the photo albums.

747
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: Don't want to tell us about it. I don't know,

748
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: Just pretend you're horrified or whatever. Like I do wonder

749
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: how much of this is them having an issue just

750
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: because they know she's felic. Shit, And I suspect even more.

751
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: It's just like, oh shit, I don't want to see

752
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: Liz's vacation pictures. You want to see that people swimming

753
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: in Moscow. I don't really care, Like, who wants to

754
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 2: watch this shit exact?

755
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: I went swimming, but then they didn't have Cavia for

756
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: me afterwards.

757
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 3: It was a hard hell.

758
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: Hell, and Liz sees the fact that her friends do

759
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: not find these stories entertaining evidence of their own suicidal,

760
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: blinkered blindness, the kind that would lead her class to

761
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: march to its own extermination if it wasn't careful. So

762
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: she became a woman on a mission to ensure her

763
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: fellow citizens understood the extent of the communist menace, and

764
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: particularly the infiltration of leftist agents at every level of

765
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: American society and government. In one of her early pieces,

766
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: Elizabeth expressed her belief that good Christian women did not

767
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: have the right to sit at home and avoid conflict

768
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: as a fire burns in the nation's basement and radical

769
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: political subversives filled the platforms with their dirt and anti

770
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: American ideas. So she's very pissed at her fellow rich

771
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: friends for not, you know, doing more to stop this,

772
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: to stop the spread of communism.

773
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 4: She sounds like a joy to have it in dinner PRIs.

774
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 2: It sounds like so much fun just to whot yeah again.

775
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: You could if she'd had Twitter, she would be nonstitute

776
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: of law, left all of her friends and family behind

777
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: to tweet NonStop, like you know this person today. We've

778
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 2: seen her.

779
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 3: One thousand we know several of them.

780
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: So initially Elizabeth wrote letters to newspapers and spoke up

781
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: in local meetings, but she found little purchase for her

782
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: ideas until she befriended Iris McCord. Iris is a teacher

783
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago now MBI as

784
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: it is also known as a private evangelical college that

785
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 2: had been founded by a wealthy businessman turned evangelist named

786
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 2: Dwight Moody in eighteen eighty six. Moody seems to actually

787
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: mostly been an okay guy. He was sided with the

788
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: Union during the Civil War, which you know, so he

789
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: gets some ups there. His whole big thing was that

790
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: in the wake of the Civil War he decided that

791
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: like evangelical Christianity needed to train what he called gap men, right,

792
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: these were men who would stand between the laity and

793
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: the ministers. So people who aren't like just normal civilians,

794
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: but they aren't like professional men of faith either, who

795
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: are trained to do like city mission work, who can

796
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: like go and reach people in the cities and stuff.

797
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: So that's Moody's idea, And that's where the Bible College

798
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: comes from, right, And it's important you know, MBI starts

799
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: as a college before Christianity is political in the United States.

800
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: That's not entirely accurate. There are left and right wing

801
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: politicians who use Christianity, but no one would say Christianity

802
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: is definitely more a left wing or a right wing thing. Okay,

803
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: this area, you couldn't clearly say that.

804
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 4: Yet.

805
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: The religious right is not a thing in this point

806
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: in time, right, Really.

807
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: That's a more modern thing, right.

808
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 2: But there aren't religious conservatives and religious hardliners right who

809
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: are conservative, and Iris is one of them, and so

810
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: is Elizabeth Dilling. And the fact that Iris taught there

811
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: and loved Dilling's reactionary rants says something about where many

812
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 2: of Moody's staff sat politically even in those days. So

813
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: Iris used her connections to get Elizabeth invited to speak

814
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: at numerous local churches about the communist threat to the

815
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: American way of life. And this helps put Elizabeth's ideas

816
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: in front of a bunch of different women, some of

817
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: them are pretty influential who have like spots in the

818
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: DAR you know, and these other groups, you know, the

819
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: Daughters of the American Revolution and the like. And so

820
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: she for the next couple of years, she starts making

821
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: an okay sight living, scaring her rich friends right, and

822
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: she becomes she really is. She's actually really good. It's

823
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: public speaking. She's got the gift of like entertaining and

824
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: capturing an audience. She is an electrifying speaker in person.

825
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: She's able to get a lot of these people to

826
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: be just as scared and crazy about communism as she is,

827
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: and her success earns her enough attention that she begins

828
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: getting invitations all across the United States, not just from

829
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: churches but from civic organizations. Now, and the DAR starts

830
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: inviting her to speak at a bunch of its local chapters.

831
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: The American Legion starts inviting her to speak at different

832
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: local events. And she's soon making enough money doing this

833
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: to support her efforts and ensure she doesn't have to

834
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: mooch off of her husband or her inheritance to have

835
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: a career, a thing she didn't believe good women ought

836
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: to have.

837
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 4: Anyway, must be really hard for her to square those things.

838
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: It's got to be filled with guilt.

839
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: Okay, to just to go from dilettant to a professional

840
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: like media rabble rouser in a year or so, Yeah,

841
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: a shameful must be hard for her. So yeah, they

842
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: with which Elizabeth had gone from penning her little essays

843
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: to addressing crowds around the country clearly went to her head.

844
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: So she decided to write a book, The Red Revolution

845
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: Do We Want It? Here? In this book, she railed

846
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: against parlor pinks who were broad minded but didn't judge

847
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: people based on their political tendency. These weak people, she argued,

848
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: let communist agents infiltrate society and corrupt children with their ideals. Right,

849
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: it's these broad minded parlor pinks who aren't like hostile

850
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: enough to socialism. That's how they sneak in. That's how

851
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: they get your society.

852
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, yeah.

853
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: And you know who's going to destroy our society?

854
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: I Donald Trump?

855
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe, but perhaps it'll be the products and services

856
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: that support this podcast. We can all hope, we can

857
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: all hope. You know that's my dream.

858
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: Fingers crossed.

859
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: So we're back. The Daughters of the America Revolution in particular,

860
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: loved her work. And if you're not an American or

861
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: you just don't know, the dair is like one of

862
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: the oldest groups of like rich ladies in America, rich

863
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: white ladies.

864
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 4: Okay, if you've you're not an American, you just have

865
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 4: to watch Gilmore Girls. That's exactly what I was. Gilmore

866
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 4: Girls every time huge plum oils. Emily Gilmore is a

867
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 4: daughter of the American Revolution.

868
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: It means your relatives date back as far as they

869
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: can in the history of the United States while not

870
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: being like indigenous obviously.

871
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: Remember they're that fantastic episode of Gilmore Girls, Katie Well,

872
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: it's Rory's twenty first birthday, and she's become friends with

873
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: all of her grandmother's friends from the DAR, and uh

874
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: Luke goes up to them and they keep saying, oh,

875
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: we know Rory from the DR, and he goes, what's

876
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: the DAR and they all laugh in his face.

877
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 3: I remember, it's great, it's great. It's great.

878
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: And for the listeners that also get that, you're really

879
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: enjoying the story. If you're Robert and have no idea

880
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: what you're talking what I'm talking about, you seem very

881
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: baffled and confused.

882
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 2: I didn't watch The Gilmore Girls, but I you should also. Yeah,

883
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: I don't think I will, but I will talk more

884
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: about the DR. Robert.

885
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: You will love it. It was written for you, Okay.

886
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: I don't think that's accurate. So the DAR in particular

887
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: loved Elizabeth's work, and they purchased ten thousand copies of

888
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: The Red Revolution Do we Want It here? And distribute

889
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: it to their local chapters. Elizabeth became a major name

890
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: in the world of reactionary agitation, and she became increasingly

891
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: well known among blue bloods like the Ladies of the DAAR.

892
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: This was a scene she considered herself basically part of

893
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: because this is these are the ladies she wants to

894
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: be friends with. She really wants to be a DAR lady.

895
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: But her family, again, they're pretty recent impocrants. I think

896
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: on both sides, it's death. It's death to her. She

897
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: hates it.

898
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: She'll never be a joy, She'll never be that good.

899
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: They don't. They'll never gonna like you. Your family hasn't

900
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 2: been here that long. And there's snooty assholes who don't

901
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: have souls like they're dead already, but so are.

902
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 4: I'm gonna guess that that doesn't radicalize her to have

903
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 4: empathy with people that have less than her.

904
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: She just desperately wants these rich ladies who are even

905
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: richer than her to like her, right because she doesn't

906
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 2: have any famous enough ancestors. For a time, getting asked

907
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: to speak at DAR events and having them reprint her

908
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: works seem like it was at least her getting her

909
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: foot in the door. But Liz is always going to

910
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: be an outsider to this crowd. However, she's now an

911
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: outsider who's making a full time living trying to scare

912
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 2: people about communists. She started telling anyone who would listen

913
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: that her cause kept her working until midnight seven days

914
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: a week. She's always talking about how hard she works,

915
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 2: so she's never she's a little bit Alex Jones there

916
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: where she's constantly lying about it. I'm up to my

917
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: neck and stacks of papers, documents that prove this extent

918
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: of the communist menace. I never rest right. And although

919
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: with her and might she might be telling the truth,

920
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: because I do think she's like a compulsive workaholic.

921
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: Or at least obsessed with this, like looking for the

922
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 3: right word, just feeling like she has to do this. Yeah,

923
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: she has.

924
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: She's completely empty as a person. There's nothing else to

925
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: her besides this. She's given up. She does that.

926
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 4: She also was bored when she became yes, and you know,

927
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 4: caught up in this like she was.

928
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: She found this and this is the only thing that's

929
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 2: ever made her feel full. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's healthy.

930
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: So uh. She starts preparing for an even more influential

931
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: book that she wants to publish, and I'm going to

932
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: quote from Amy dies thesis again here. Dylan began collecting

933
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: over one hundred file cards. Each note card contained the

934
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 2: name of a person with pro communist affiliations. These file

935
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: cards sparked her to purchase a large library of books

936
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: about politics, history, law, philosophy, Jews, communism, organized labor, economics, revolution,

937
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: and foreign policy. Hey it, Liz, I get why you're

938
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: interested in books of history and law and about like

939
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: organized labor, and why are Jews live? Why are they

940
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: in there? It? Li, we know?

941
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: Can you explain that a little bit more?

942
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: We know what Jews are in there? I think we do?

943
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: We do?

944
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 3: We know why? Oh yeah, yeah, hmm okay.

945
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 4: I googled her and I saw an image that I

946
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 4: won't reference right now because I will you where this

947
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 4: is going.

948
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh fun, I'm interested in what that image is.

949
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 2: So Liz also did a lot of gumshoe work infiltrating

950
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: local communist organizations in Chicago by convincing them she wanted

951
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: to join and asking for exclusive inside information. Now, in reality,

952
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: she was just getting essays and notices about upcoming meetings,

953
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 2: but she always treated this as if she was receiving

954
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: a highly dangerous military intel, because that makes her sound cooler.

955
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: Her inspiration and a lot of this work was a

956
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: guy named Harry Young, who was the director of the

957
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: American Vigilant Federation. Now there's not a lot that remains

958
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: about Harry, but I found an entry for him on Fascippedia,

959
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: which describes the Vigilant Intelligence Federation as quote an attempt

960
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: to track radicalism among labor union members. After three days

961
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: decades of monitoring radicals and their organizations America, it has

962
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: been said his files exceeded a million names. Ciang is

963
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: keeping track of anyone who's in the labor movement right

964
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: He's keeping a death list ready, just in case anyone

965
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: wants to go kill these people. Young is also one

966
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: of the first Americans to distribute the Protocols of the

967
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: Learned Elders of Zion in the United States, and it's

968
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: said that he received his copy from three white Russians

969
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: fleeing their failed counter revolutions. So he is one of

970
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: the first people to spread anti Semitic propaganda in an

971
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: organized way in the United States. That's her direct inspiration.

972
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: Perfect Yeah. Young is the guy who turns the Protocols

973
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: into a movie for the first time, which helps to

974
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: create a groundbreaking work of anti Semitic propaganda that's referenced

975
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: by Nazis to this day. Elizabeth knew this about him

976
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: when they met. In fact, it's why she was excited

977
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: to work with Young. As Amy Die writes, Young agreed

978
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: to help Dilling by letting her look at any of

979
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: his files that she deemed important to fight the communistic threat. Later,

980
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: both Young's films and research came into the hands of

981
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: the federal government. The Department of Justice deemed Young's work

982
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: is Unamerican as it feature several racial prejudices that offend

983
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 2: most American citizens. So that's her like model, that's the

984
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: guy that she loves.

985
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, okay, good work, Liz.

986
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: Good judgment, Liz, Yeah, you have great judgment in people.

987
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: We can certainly say that about you. In the early

988
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties, Stilling also helped to found an organization, the

989
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 2: Paul Revers, which she claimed was a patriotic organization to

990
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: uphold Americanism in opposition to all other isms such as

991
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: socialism and communism. Interesting, fascism isn't spelled out there. She

992
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: lists severalisms, not fascists not Yeah.

993
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 3: She conveniently forgot that ism.

994
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure if you pressed her, she said, oh, yeah,

995
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: that too, of course, but she didn't want to bring

996
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: it up unless you did. Now, the only restriction the

997
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: Paul Revere's had for new members, you want to guess

998
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: the only kind of person who couldn't join her organization,

999
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: the Paul revers of Patriotic Americans. What kind of person

1000
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: would she exclude? Do you think Jews or black? It's Jews.

1001
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 2: It's Jews. No, it's actually not like black people weren't allowed. Actually,

1002
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: but that's welcomed. But they weren't explicitly banned the way

1003
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: Jewish people were. Although we have to assume they weren't welcome, right.

1004
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 3: I do want to. I absolutely assume that.

1005
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I can also see them only stating outright

1006
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 2: that Jews are not allowed, in part because they maybe

1007
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 2: just wouldn't have assumed any black people would ever try

1008
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: to join. They may have just been like, really like

1009
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: you might have been joined, Paul as a black person.

1010
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: Is sort of a like like an air bud situation,

1011
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: where was like, well, no one put this in the rules,

1012
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: like we clearly not.

1013
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: Even they might not even considered that.

1014
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: They did not conceive of this as a possibility.

1015
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, two.

1016
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: Racists to have a race based entry requirement. Yeah. So

1017
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty four, Liz published what would have become

1018
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: her most influential book, The Red Network, Who's Who and

1019
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: Handbook of Radicalism for Patriots. This beautiful book which you'll

1020
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 2: be see on your screen now. It's gorgeous red cover embossed,

1021
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: you know, nice, very very basic font but effective, the

1022
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: Red Network of Who's Who and Handbook of Radicalism for Patriots.

1023
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 2: This collected all of Elizabeth's research, all of these note

1024
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: cards about these individual people that she's declared communists. This

1025
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: is like almost part of it's like a almost like

1026
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: a like a phone book of leftist radicals. Again, it's

1027
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: kind of a kill list, right.

1028
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 3: Like McCarthyism pre McCarthyism.

1029
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: You've you've anticipated one of this books that yes, tailor

1030
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: Joe loves this fucking book. This will make it into

1031
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: the McCarthy hearings as it happens.

1032
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh wow.

1033
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 2: Stuff. So we'll be hearing a lot more from this

1034
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 2: book and hearing a lot more from it about Liz.

1035
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: But that's all for part one, Katie. You got any

1036
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: pluggables to plug at the end here?

1037
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh sure, I got pluggables to plug.

1038
00:50:54,080 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 4: You can find me over at some more News with Codyen.

1039
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 4: We got some more news. We've got even more news,

1040
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 4: both in the same channel.

1041
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: We've got a Patreon excellent.

1042
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 2: All right, everybody check their Patreon out, check their channel out, yeah,

1043
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: and check us out in like a day or so

1044
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 2: when we return with the rest of the story about

1045
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Dylly.

1046
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 3: I'll be in this spot for the next two days, right.

1047
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: Perfect beauty, impatiently glorious.

1048
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1049
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1050
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1051
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,840
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1052
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: episodes that Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix,

1053
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Remind me on Netflix you

1054
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog,

1055
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,720
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1056
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: slash at behind the Bastards. We love about forty percent

1057
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Speaker 1: of you, statistically speaking,