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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now, today's topic

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Speaker 1: is a heavy one, just to warn you. It's not

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Speaker 1: something that is a ton of fun, but it's actually

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Speaker 1: really really important. Today we're gonna be talking about women

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Speaker 1: in prison, how they are treated when they are pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and what it looks like when they go into labor

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Speaker 1: behind bars. And if you're looking for a podcast episode

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Speaker 1: of ours to run to or to have a very

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Speaker 1: intensive workout too, this one will get your heart rate up,

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Speaker 1: no matter whether or not you're engaged in cardio activity.

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Speaker 1: So y'all are about to be pissed. This topic is enraging, definitely.

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Speaker 1: So I first sort of got interested in this topic, um,

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Speaker 1: like most things, because of a of a trumpler. So

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Speaker 1: peep trumpell um. You may have remembered a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, Donald Trump pardoned this terrible awful sheriff in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Joe Arpio, who is known for a laundry list

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Speaker 1: of really really awful and cruel and dehumanizing acts. But

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Speaker 1: one of those acts is forcing a woman to give

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Speaker 1: birth in one of his prisons while shackled to her

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Speaker 1: bed when she actually filed a lawsuit. She ended up

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Speaker 1: losing her lawsuit, but the lawsuit did find that she

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Speaker 1: was inappropriately shackled during childbirth. But you're not supposed to

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Speaker 1: do so. It's even more awful to me that Trump

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Speaker 1: pardoned this guy, because that seems like such a dehumanizing

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Speaker 1: act to do to a woman, even even a woman

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Speaker 1: behind bars, right and my, I mean, we're gonna unpack

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Speaker 1: all of the nitty gritty behind how this is still

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Speaker 1: a policy being utilized in lots of prisons in our country,

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Speaker 1: and some of the reasons behind that are the reasons

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Speaker 1: why that injustice persists unfortunately. But the biggest thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm left scratching my head thinking is where the hell

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Speaker 1: do they think these women are really going to go?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what is the what is the intent here?

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Speaker 1: Because anyone who's given birth, and I, for one have not,

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Speaker 1: but I have witnessed a few live births, and my

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Speaker 1: mom is a labor and delivery nurse, so I've seen

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Speaker 1: I've been around a lot of babies being born. Let

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Speaker 1: me just put it that way. First of all, you're

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Speaker 1: not going anywhere, and second of all, you need to

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Speaker 1: be able to have body autonomy, because that is one

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Speaker 1: of the most physically taxing moments of any woman's life.

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Speaker 1: And to think that these women can't move about their

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Speaker 1: hospital bed freely disgust me. Well, actually, Emily Um, there

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Speaker 1: have actually been zero documented cases of pregnant inmates attempting

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Speaker 1: to escape during prenatal checkups, postpartum recovery, or labor, So

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Speaker 1: it really doesn't seem as if it makes any sense

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Speaker 1: at all logically to be doing this. And furthermore, they

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Speaker 1: shackle these women regardless of whether they have histories of violence,

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Speaker 1: regardless of whether they have you know, made attempts to

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Speaker 1: escape in the past. It seems completely divorced from the

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Speaker 1: actual necessity of what's happening in this situation, right, And

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Speaker 1: there's really no personal consideration there. It has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with how compliant a prisoner this person has ever been, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So let's just level set for a minute and look

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Speaker 1: at this from a bird's eye view. One thing to

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Speaker 1: know about this issue is that it's actually really difficult

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Speaker 1: to find out information about pregnant women inmates, and that's

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Speaker 1: because we are not collecting that data at the state

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Speaker 1: or federal level. So in this episode. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the research that we've compiled comes from advocacy organizations like

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Speaker 1: the Sentencing Project, Women in Prison Project, and the National

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Speaker 1: Women's Law Center. And you might be thinking that there

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Speaker 1: aren't that many women in prison, right, prisons in our

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Speaker 1: country are predominantly filled by men. But the reality is

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Speaker 1: that over the last quarter century there's been a steadily

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Speaker 1: increasing number of women in prison do in no small

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Speaker 1: part to the rise of non violent drug offenses landing

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Speaker 1: people in jail, and women are more likely than men

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Speaker 1: to be arrested for those non violent drug senses. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're locking people up who are no

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Speaker 1: violent threat to society but have landed themselves in hot

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Speaker 1: water and broken the law when it comes to drug

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Speaker 1: policy in the United States means we're filling prisons with

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Speaker 1: more women than ever. Yeah, and that's that's so sad

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Speaker 1: to me. I have to say one thing that gives

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Speaker 1: me a little bit of optimism, and this optimism might

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Speaker 1: be sort of unearned, but I'm a little optimistic anyway.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the tide is kind of turned in

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Speaker 1: terms of how we think of non violent drug offenders

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Speaker 1: in this country. I think that when you had the

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Speaker 1: crack epidemic um and most drug offenders were folks of color.

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Speaker 1: People had a very very hard line stance like locked

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Speaker 1: them up the way the key. I think these days,

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Speaker 1: as the demographics are shifting culturally and racially, I've seen

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Speaker 1: people taking new stances on this issue. So I'm a

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Speaker 1: little bit optimistic in that I hope that we get

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Speaker 1: to a place where drug offenses and addiction issues are

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Speaker 1: not treated just as crimes, but they're treated as public

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Speaker 1: health and health concerns, and that we are not just

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Speaker 1: putting people in jail where a lot of times, if

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Speaker 1: you are someone who is struggling with drugs, that does

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Speaker 1: not get you away from those drugs. That we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about it in terms of alternative sentencing that actually can

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Speaker 1: help these people change their lives. I think that calls

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Speaker 1: for an episode on the opioid epidemic defining it will

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Speaker 1: that does have the potential to change how we look

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Speaker 1: at drug offenses. I think you're right now. Unfortunately, I'm

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Speaker 1: still pretty pessimistic on this issue. And here's why the

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Speaker 1: female prison population currently is eight times higher than it

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Speaker 1: was in which was I would say, what the start

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Speaker 1: of the crack epidemic or sort of a hat I

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Speaker 1: think of it. Yeah, And on top of that, more

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Speaker 1: than sixty of those women in prisons have a child

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Speaker 1: under the age of eighteen. So if you really think

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Speaker 1: about the sort of ramifications of that, and not that

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Speaker 1: men don't have children to be fathers for either, but

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Speaker 1: those are I don't know, it just feels like this

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Speaker 1: domino effect that leaves me feeling quite hopeless. To be honest,

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Speaker 1: it does. I mean, it does seem like a hopeless situation.

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Speaker 1: It does seem like a situation that is perhaps not

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Speaker 1: going to get much better. Um, and I can understand

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Speaker 1: feeling quite depressed about it. It's true. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: hate to be a downer on this, but I think

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Speaker 1: that the numbers really call for that. Here. Between the

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Speaker 1: years of fourteen, the number of incarcerated women increased by

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Speaker 1: more than seven hundred percent. And tragically, just like you

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Speaker 1: mentioned at the top of the episode, Bridget, even though

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Speaker 1: we know how many women are in prison these days,

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Speaker 1: there's no real data kept on women who are pregnant

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Speaker 1: or women who give birth while serving out their sentences.

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Speaker 1: So this is a fraud issue that's not even really

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Speaker 1: well understood when it comes to how prisons are tracking

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Speaker 1: their own inmates, And how can we even begin to

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Speaker 1: tackle an issue like this if we're not keeping data

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Speaker 1: around it, we're not analyzing any kind of research. If

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for these advocacy organizations, so you wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: half of this information that we do have. Ectly, So

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Speaker 1: according to these advocacy organizations, why is in case it's

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Speaker 1: not obvious immediately to all of us. Why is shackling

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Speaker 1: pregnant inmates so dangerous? So one of the things that

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Speaker 1: when I came into this issue, I was thinking of

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Speaker 1: it purely as you should not be shackling pregnant women

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Speaker 1: during labor because it's dehumanizing, it's awful. It's just, on

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Speaker 1: its face seems terrible. But it's not just that it's

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Speaker 1: dehumanizing and it's you know, no one should give birth

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Speaker 1: that way. It's actually really, really physically dangerous. Restraints make

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Speaker 1: it difficult for doctors to adequately assess the condition of

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Speaker 1: the mother and the fetus, and it makes it difficult

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Speaker 1: for them to provide prompt medical intervention if necessary. Um

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Speaker 1: restraints also make labor and delivery just more painful, and

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Speaker 1: so if you're already in a painful, uncomfortable, trying situation

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Speaker 1: that's physically demanding. Being shackled, and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: shackled for no real reason. Might I add, makes that

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Speaker 1: situation that much more uncomfortable. I know my mom has

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Speaker 1: told me how her patients will go from the bed

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Speaker 1: to the bathtub, to the plio ball to turning over

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Speaker 1: on their side on there on all four. Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: have to like move your body to make labor move

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Speaker 1: along smoothly, and it's already such an uncomfortable, painful experience

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Speaker 1: for so many of us to take away your body

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Speaker 1: autonomy in that moment when you're already trying to bring

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Speaker 1: a new life into this world, which does often require

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Speaker 1: moving your entire body around to make labor and delivery

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Speaker 1: more safe for the fetus. Like if you have a

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Speaker 1: baby that's breached and you have to get that baby

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Speaker 1: to flip or you're gonna be brought into an emergency

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Speaker 1: c section, or you've got a umbilical cord around the

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Speaker 1: baby's neck type situation. By strapping women and restraining women

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Speaker 1: to the bed, we're putting both the life of that

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Speaker 1: child and mother at risk. So for all the hard

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Speaker 1: right wingers out there who are you know, thinking so much.

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Speaker 1: She's a prisoner, she's lost those freedoms, strap her down.

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Speaker 1: If you're super pro life, you want that baby to

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Speaker 1: be okay, you've got to recognize that strapping women and

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Speaker 1: shackling women to the bed, Uh, it's putting that baby's

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Speaker 1: life at risk too. And that baby didn't do anything

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Speaker 1: to deserve that crappy deck of cards pre life like

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Speaker 1: for their life even begins. And it's just so so

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Speaker 1: sad to me. I could almost understand if they had

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Speaker 1: some sort of data that showed that women who go

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Speaker 1: into labor are flight risks or something like that. They're

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Speaker 1: doing it for no reason at all. It's it's putting

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Speaker 1: the life of the woman and the baby at risk,

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Speaker 1: really for no reason. Well, I mean, I think the

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Speaker 1: hard liners argument would be that these are prisoners, they're dangerous,

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Speaker 1: they could grab a syringe and try to kill someone

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Speaker 1: to escape, And I just don't think that that argument

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Speaker 1: that possibility outweighs the very real health risks and realities

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Speaker 1: that we're putting mothers and their unborn children at because

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Speaker 1: of this kind of policy. Yeah, I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the stories that I've had on l dot com was

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Speaker 1: this woman who was arrested because do you know how

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Speaker 1: when you're traveling, maybe you have a work purse and

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Speaker 1: go out purse. She had one oxy pill in a

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Speaker 1: purse that was in the bottom of her purse, and

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Speaker 1: she had switched out her purses. She was arrested for

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Speaker 1: some some low level offense and they found that oxy pill.

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Speaker 1: So you know, she was arrested, got a heavy sentence,

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Speaker 1: and then was shackled during childbirth. And again keeping in

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Speaker 1: mind that so many of these women are non violent

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Speaker 1: drug offenders who are being arrested very non violent crime,

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Speaker 1: a crime that I think a lot of folks might

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Speaker 1: argue they don't even really belong behind bars because of

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Speaker 1: thinking that you would have to have a baby that

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Speaker 1: would be at risk because of that, I think is

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Speaker 1: unfathomable and it just to me this falls under the

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Speaker 1: Cruel and Unusual department. This is cruel. This is not

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Speaker 1: part of equal sentencing or equal justice under the law.

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Speaker 1: And so when we talk about, okay, should we treat

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Speaker 1: men and women the same in this case or should

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Speaker 1: we make exceptions for women because this penalizes women in

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Speaker 1: a cruel and unusual way. I think to me, it's

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Speaker 1: very clear that there's no equivalent on the male side

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Speaker 1: of this argument. There's no equivalent to how we're punishing

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Speaker 1: men that could even amount to being shackled during childbirth.

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Speaker 1: So this should by all means be unconstitutional because of

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Speaker 1: its cruel and unusual nature in my opinion. Well, you

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Speaker 1: know who agrees with that opinion. Pretty much the entire

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Speaker 1: medical community. The American Medical Association says that the practice

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Speaker 1: of shackling pregnant women is quote out of line with

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Speaker 1: the ethics of the medical profession. And that's not all.

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Speaker 1: There's an entire host of medical organizations that have pretty

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Speaker 1: much come down on a hard line stance against this practice.

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Speaker 1: We're talking in the American Public Health Association, the American

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Speaker 1: College of O b G y NS. All of these

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Speaker 1: organizations directly opposed shackling during childbirth as due to organizations

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Speaker 1: that are focused specifically on correctional health care, so health

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Speaker 1: care for imprisoned folks. So it's one thing to put

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Speaker 1: people in prison, it's another thing to dehumanize them, and

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Speaker 1: this absolutely crosses the line in my opinion. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: American College of O B G by n S had

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Speaker 1: this to say about the practice, the use of restraints

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Speaker 1: on pregnant, incarcerated women and adolescence may not only compromise

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Speaker 1: health care, but is demeaning and rarely necessary. So to me,

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Speaker 1: that is so clear, it's so clear that we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be doing this. And beyond the physical risks and the

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Speaker 1: very real health risks that we pose to the unborn

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Speaker 1: children and mothers during child birth, this practice also imposes

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Speaker 1: psychological stresses that are particularly acute for inmates, many of

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Speaker 1: whom have already been an abusive intimate relationships. For instance,

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Speaker 1: over ninety five per cent of incarcerated women have been

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Speaker 1: found to be prior victims of sexual trauma, and that's

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Speaker 1: according to a two thousand two Family Crisis Services study.

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Speaker 1: So if you think about being restrained while you are

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Speaker 1: in the most you're being examined and touched in the

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Speaker 1: most intimate parts of your body by medical necessity. If

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Speaker 1: you have any kind of sexual trauma in your background,

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Speaker 1: that alone can be incredibly triggering and psychologically dangerous for

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Speaker 1: rape survivors or folks who've who have been survivors of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. I mean, it's just like it's just I'm

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Speaker 1: so I get so enraged thinking out how dangerous this

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Speaker 1: is beyond what the average male correctional officer, whoever the

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Speaker 1: hell is behind these policies, can even comprehend. Definitely. And

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Speaker 1: if you've ever seen the movie Knocked Up, Katherine Heigel's character,

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Speaker 1: she's in the bathtub, she's trying to calm down because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want her baby to be quote born into

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Speaker 1: the world wired for stress. And I think about it

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Speaker 1: is if the prison system makes it so that if

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Speaker 1: you're a child born from from a woman who was incarcerated,

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Speaker 1: you don't even get the option of how you enter

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Speaker 1: the world, You're already marked and set up to have

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Speaker 1: a worse life than anyone else. Right, That's so unfair

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Speaker 1: to me. And there's a component of this which is

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Speaker 1: really troubling to me because it's not their choice. Some

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Speaker 1: parents will bring children into this world in an incredibly

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Speaker 1: stressful and horrifying environment. That is a reality of the

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Speaker 1: world we live in. This is depriving a woman like

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Speaker 1: the woman you describe who was incarcerated after one oxy

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Speaker 1: pill was found in the bottom of her purse, of

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Speaker 1: even and having the choice of trying to give her

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Speaker 1: child a better life. And you know, from moment one

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Speaker 1: and I just think there has to be longer term

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Speaker 1: research done on what kind of an impact that has

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Speaker 1: on those children as well. Considering the U S locks

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Speaker 1: people up at a higher rate than any other country

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Speaker 1: in the world, you would think would be invested in

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Speaker 1: what impacts is having on our country and our citizen rate. Yeah. Absolutely, Well,

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Speaker 1: the United States has only about four point four percent

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Speaker 1: of the world's population. It houses of the world's prisoners. Well,

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Speaker 1: a big reason behind why this practice is still in

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Speaker 1: place in so many prisons in the United States is

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Speaker 1: because the whole system was geared towards men. Amy Fedig,

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Speaker 1: the Senior Staff Council of the National Prison Project at

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Speaker 1: the a c l YOU, says, men are always shackled

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Speaker 1: when they're transported out of a correctional facility to receive

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Speaker 1: medical care, and that policy has been applied across the

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Speaker 1: board without considering the unique needs of women. And furthermore,

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Speaker 1: it really sounds like most correctional officers haven't really been

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Speaker 1: given much training or protocol around how to be sensitive

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Speaker 1: toward pregnant female inmates. And I just think this is

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Speaker 1: one of those issues where the entire system is set

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Speaker 1: up with men in mind, and women are just sort

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Speaker 1: of getting the short end, and it can really be dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Patriarchy strikes again. As always, we're gonna talk more about

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Speaker 1: where we're at with this issue after this quick word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we're back. And I know this

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Speaker 1: issue is pretty depressing and awful. I'm my blood is

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Speaker 1: boiling over here. But we do have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of good issue news on this issue. In September of

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Speaker 1: two eight, the Federal Bureau of Prisons otherwise known as

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Speaker 1: b OP, formally ended the process of shackling president inmates

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Speaker 1: as a matter of routine and all federal correctional facilities.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome, that's great, so federal prisons, but not necessarily

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Speaker 1: state prisons. Is that right, That's exactly right. So basically, federally,

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Speaker 1: no one is supposed to be shackled during childbirth, but

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Speaker 1: at the state level it varies. And so again, since

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Speaker 1: we're not really collecting this data at a state level,

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Speaker 1: it's up to advocacy organizations to really fill in the

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Speaker 1: gaps about information that we have around how states are

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Speaker 1: using this practice or not using this practice, and furthermore,

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Speaker 1: again to be even more of the bearer of bad

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Speaker 1: news on this subject. Unfortunately, just because it was banned

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that that's actually what's happening. A recent study

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Speaker 1: published earlier this year by the Correctional Association of New York,

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Speaker 1: a nonprofit advocacy organization, found that twenty three of the

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Speaker 1: twenty seven inmates who had given birth while incarcerated in

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Speaker 1: New York had been shackled in total violation of the law.

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Speaker 1: So it's they postulate that it's not uncommon for shackling

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Speaker 1: during childbirth to persist to continue as a practice even

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Speaker 1: when it was already outlawed. When you think about prisoners,

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Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense. You're taught to comply. You don't

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Speaker 1: want to run the risk of facing some sort of

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Speaker 1: intense consequence if you don't comply. Um. According to Amanda Edgar,

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Speaker 1: an advocate with the Incarcerated Women's Project, she said that

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Speaker 1: one woman told her that if she didn't keep the

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Speaker 1: shackles on, she wouldn't be able to go to her appointment,

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Speaker 1: and that other women have been denied access to prenatal vitamins,

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Speaker 1: And so if you're pregnant in prison, I can imagine

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Speaker 1: it's this really really scary thing where you don't want

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Speaker 1: to rock the boat too much because you don't want

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Speaker 1: to put your baby further at risk when she's already

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Speaker 1: at risk. Oh my god, it's that's just like what

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Speaker 1: a horrifying choice to have to make as an imprisoned

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Speaker 1: pregnant woman of trying to figure out what move is

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Speaker 1: best for your child. And what I was also just

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Speaker 1: disgusted to find out is that when we talk about shackles,

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking, you know, risked to bed, right, like

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Speaker 1: shackles around your feet and maybe around your ankles, all

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Speaker 1: of which is definitely part of this practice. But what

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Speaker 1: we can't forget is that there's also laws on the

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Speaker 1: books about other kinds of restraints, including belly shackles, which

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Speaker 1: were commonly used to constrict the stomach area of pregnant women,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the trimester of pregnancy that they were in,

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Speaker 1: unless they can show a legitimate security justification. So I

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Speaker 1: want to hear from women who have given birth on

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Speaker 1: this front. Can you imagine being shackled bonding your ankles,

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Speaker 1: on your wrists and potentially around your belly. Well, you

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Speaker 1: are trying to bring another life into this world, where like,

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Speaker 1: what what kind of crazy regime would do that, like,

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Speaker 1: would have that kind of torture on the books. Oh wait,

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Speaker 1: the leader of the free world, United States, this is

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Speaker 1: happening in our country, and it's it's like we would

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't want this to happen. Like it just feels

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Speaker 1: like a violation of the Geneva Convention. How is this okay?

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Speaker 1: How is this being practice? It just blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: I think when I read that they were getting rid

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Speaker 1: of the practice of belly shackling, I tried to make

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Speaker 1: myself feel optimistic. But that means that before October two seven,

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Speaker 1: if you are a woman who was pregnant in prison,

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Speaker 1: you could be shackled by your belly, which is absurd

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Speaker 1: and enraging and bloody ailingly upsetting to me. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about how things are going on a state by

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Speaker 1: state basis. Spoiler alert, it's not going great. The Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Project for Human Rights teamed up with the National Women's

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Speaker 1: Law Center here in DC to publish a report card

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Speaker 1: ranking different states and how they treat pregnant prisoners and mothers.

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Speaker 1: Um The criteria they use is whether or not states

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Speaker 1: require pregnant women to have access to prenatal care, do

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Speaker 1: they restrict the use of restraints on pregnant women during labor,

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Speaker 1: and whether or not they strengthen the mother child bond

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Speaker 1: through the use of things like alternative sentencing. Um, oh right,

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Speaker 1: because even after you give birth to which a baby

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Speaker 1: you're newborn as an imprisoned mother, perhaps while shackled to

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Speaker 1: the bed, that's it, you say goodbye, and it's unclear

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Speaker 1: how much time you have with your infant child before

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Speaker 1: you're back in prison without them exactly. It's it's awful.

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Speaker 1: It's so awful. The Rebecca Project on the National Women's

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Speaker 1: Law Center is very, very careful to point out that

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Speaker 1: even if a state gets an a that does not

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Speaker 1: actually mean they're doing all they can, because it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: just in general, we're not concerned for the very thing

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Speaker 1: that you just mentioned, mother child bonds, whether or not

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Speaker 1: a child is set up to have a healthy attachment

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Speaker 1: to their mom, whether or not they're being set up

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Speaker 1: to have a healthy childhood, all of those things. We

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Speaker 1: don't seem concerned about that. And again, it feels like

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Speaker 1: a multi generational penalty. It feels like we're taking women

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Speaker 1: who have been penalized in the eyes of the law,

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Speaker 1: have been found guilty, have been sentenced to serve and

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Speaker 1: and basically serve their time for their crime. Now we

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Speaker 1: are saying your child, potentially you're unborn child is not

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Speaker 1: getting the prenatal care that you would have otherwise been

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Speaker 1: able to give them outside of prison. And then the

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Speaker 1: child that's being ripped from you without access to the

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Speaker 1: lactation option that mothers might otherwise have for them. We

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Speaker 1: are penalizing these babies because of crimes committed by their mothers.

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Speaker 1: I'm just at a loss. And furthermore, the the numbers

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Speaker 1: on this report card are pretty dismal. Thirty eight states

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Speaker 1: received failing grades for their failure to institute adequate policies

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Speaker 1: or any policies requiring access to prenatal care for imprisoned

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Speaker 1: mothers or imprisoned pregnant women. Thirty four states do not

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Speaker 1: require screening and treatment for women with high risk pregnancies.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like you're just setting them up to have

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Speaker 1: a potentially life threatening pregnancy, which pretty much every pregnancy

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Speaker 1: is potentially life threatening, and we're talking about women who

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Speaker 1: are already high risk pools. It's just it seems above

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Speaker 1: and beyond what is humane. It just seems cruel and unusual,

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Speaker 1: and and it's like it just doesn't seem like they

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Speaker 1: should exist in our first world justice system, or really

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Speaker 1: any justice system. Yeah, and listen to this. Forty nine

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Speaker 1: states at a fifty fail to report all incarcerated women's

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Speaker 1: pregnancies and their outcomes. That means that only one state

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Speaker 1: is even invested at all in terms of keeping records

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Speaker 1: around pregnant inmates and what happens when they give birth

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Speaker 1: in jail. So we don't even know what the infant

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Speaker 1: mortality rate is for imprisoned women, but I would venture

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Speaker 1: to guess it's not great. And furthermore, despite the federal

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Speaker 1: outlawing of this practice on a federal level in federal prisons,

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Speaker 1: thirties six states received failing grades for their complete failure

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Speaker 1: to limit the use of restraints on pregnant women during transportation, labor,

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Speaker 1: and delivery, as well as postpartum recuperation. So despite it

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Speaker 1: being on the books as not a thing, that is

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Speaker 1: clearly not what's happening in real life in practice, and

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Speaker 1: that has to change. It does have to change. And

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Speaker 1: again I have to say, as awful as this issue is,

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Speaker 1: this report from the National Women's Law Center actually does

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Speaker 1: lift up the Federal Bureau of prisons as taking some steps.

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Speaker 1: You know that we said earlier that they've banned shackling

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Speaker 1: of women in labor. They also have a program called

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Speaker 1: Mothers and Infants Nursing Together or MINT that provides alternative

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Speaker 1: community based sentencing for women who have recently given birth

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Speaker 1: and have less than five years left off their prison terms.

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Speaker 1: So I will say, I mean, as awful as it is,

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Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that federally, these federal prisons can continue to

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Speaker 1: show some kind of leadership in terms of turning the

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Speaker 1: tide on this issue. And I'm hoping that the early

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Speaker 1: success of that program, even though it only currently serves

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Speaker 1: a very small portion of mothers in federal prison, can

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Speaker 1: be used as inspiration for widening access to that kind

431
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 1: of slightly more compassionate approach to incarceration. I agree with you,

432
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: and I think it is a little bit optimistic, or

433
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: slightly slightly optimistic, that is, until you look at our

434
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: immigration system. Now, granted, immigration and customs enforcement is different

435
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: than federal prisons, but they are also operated federally, and

436
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: so I think it makes sense to look at how

437
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: pregnant inmates are being treated in those facilities, and ice

438
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: facilities are used for housing undocumented residents who are basically

439
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: being rounded up and potentially deported correct correct, so spoiler alert,

440
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: they're not being treated very well. According to this report

441
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: from the National Women's Law Center, conditions for women in

442
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: ICE detention centers are pretty crappy. There is currently no

443
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: prohibition on shackling pregnant detainees. ICE officials have been largely

444
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: unresponsive to advocates requests to implement a policy of restricting

445
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: shackling that mirrors the federal policies that prisons have. And

446
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: I really think that even if you are the hardest

447
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: of hardliners on immigration, even if you truly believe that

448
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump should round up every undocumented immigrant and immediately

449
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: deport them, I would be surprised if even that hardcore

450
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: and anti would include shackling pregnant immigrants during childbirth in

451
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: a detention center, particularly if these inmates have not been

452
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: shown to be flight risks. All right, we need to

453
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: take a break or I'm gonna flip over the table

454
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: in our studio right now, So right after this quick

455
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, will be back with hopefully some

456
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: better news and what the heck is being done to

457
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: change this. And we're back, and if you are feeling

458
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: the way we're feeling, your blood is probably boiling right now.

459
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: The good news is this is one of those problems

460
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: that seems to have some very clear solutions this. No

461
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: one needs to be throwing their hands up in exasperation

462
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out how to solve an unsolvable

463
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: problem here. So what does some of these solutions or

464
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: proposed alternatives are out there bridget for making this less horrific? Well,

465
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: the first one I would say is pretty common sense,

466
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: and that's follow the freaking law. If you're a correctional

467
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: officer at a state where the law says that women

468
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: should not be shackled during childbirth, don't shackle them during childbirth.

469
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: I know it surprises me that an institution known for

470
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: its respect for the chain of command doesn't seem to

471
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: be hearing that. For federal prisons, it has been outlawed

472
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: to shackle women during childbirth. So just training an actual

473
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: implementation of the law on the books there would be

474
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: a great place to start, definitely, I think. Furthermore, keeping

475
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: track of data, keeping track of the numbers. We track

476
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: a lot of things when it comes to our inmate

477
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: population in here in the United States, and we have

478
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: to do a better job of actually knowing how big

479
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: of a problem this is. But we can't do that

480
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: until there's more transparency and reporting, an accountability on the

481
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: behalf of our federal institutions to be clear about who's pregnant,

482
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: how they're being treated, what kind of care is being

483
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: provided for them, and what the outcomes are. Any country,

484
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: especially democracy, would want to know how their prisons are

485
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: actually being run and how prisoners are being treated, because

486
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: that is a reflection of the values of your nation.

487
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: And so we here in the United States, especially if

488
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna be locking up more people than any other country,

489
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: we need to take seriously how that population of citizens

490
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: is or is not being treated with the same equal justice,

491
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: dignity and in personhood and being seen as a human

492
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: being even while serving time for their crime. Totally, I'm

493
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: so glad that you said that, because a pet peeve

494
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: of mine when it comes to how we think about

495
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: incarcerated in visuals is that we think of them all

496
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: as a monster, so they're not even really human. They've

497
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: probably done something awful to be behind bars, and once

498
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: they're behind bars, we don't even need to think about

499
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: what's going on with them. We don't even need to

500
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: think about what kind of conditions they're facing. And I

501
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: think if we can begin to remember that this is

502
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: really supposed to be about rehabilitation and what it will

503
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: be the best course of action to get these people's

504
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: lives back on tract because they're re entering society. How

505
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: do we want to treat people who are going to

506
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: be re entering our society and those underlying issues or

507
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: how they've been treated while serving their time. That's just

508
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: not going away. These are our neighbors, these are our

509
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: community members. How do we believe that we should be

510
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: treating in prison folks knowing that they have rights too.

511
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it, but well,

512
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of data that shows that we

513
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: really do need to be rethinking how we are treating

514
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: inmates when they are incarcerated. So the Rebecca Project actually

515
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: suggests that things like family based treatment can be a

516
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: great alternative to incarceration, particularly for folks who are behind

517
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: bars for a non violent offense. So check this out.

518
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: When a father is incarcerated of the time, if they

519
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: have a child, that child lives with their mom. But

520
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: when a mother is incarcerated, only twenty percent of the

521
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: time will the child live with the father. So basically

522
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: what they're saying is that maternal incarceration is really really

523
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: disruptive to a family unit. And so when you have

524
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: a mom who's behind bars, who's not able to see

525
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: her child, that only is that bad for the mom,

526
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: it's also setting that child up to have a higher

527
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: risk life in terms of things like uh, encountering violence,

528
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: being a drug offender themselves. And so if you were

529
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: really really interested in the most effective ways of making

530
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: sure that everybody is going to get back on track,

531
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: things like community based or family based therapy where mothers

532
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: have access to their children as an alternative to incarceration,

533
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: have actually been proven to not only be more affected,

534
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: but also more cost effective. And that alternative can include

535
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: access to community based programs, therapy, parenting classes, and substance

536
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: abuse treatment. So, if I'm thinking about prison as this

537
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: underlying theory of change, right, the theory behind prisons in

538
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: the United States is that we are taking people out

539
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: of society because they were a danger or a problem

540
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: to society, and before we put them back into society,

541
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: they need to prove that they have been rehabilitated or changed.

542
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: This to me seems like a much better avenue to

543
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: that kind of rehabilitation and for setting mothers up and

544
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: their children up for more successful and sustainable outcomes. I

545
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: think the reality here is that this is a complex issue.

546
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: This is a small, relatively small percentage of prison inmates

547
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: who are going through this situation of childbirth while in prison.

548
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: But we cannot ignore their unique needs, and we cannot

549
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: turn a blind eye pretend like treating them the same

550
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: as every other prisoner is going to cut it. And frankly,

551
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: even some of the proposed solutions are a little bit complex.

552
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: For instance, instead of ripping newborns from their imprisoned mothers,

553
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: we can start to look at prison nurse series as

554
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: a potential part of the solution here. Studies do show

555
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: that children who are pulled away from their mothers very

556
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: very early on due to maternal incarceration risk suffering significant

557
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: attachment disorders. They become more likely to be addicted to

558
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol, engage in criminal activity, manifest sexually promiscuous behavior,

559
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: and dangerously lag behind in educational development and achievement. But again,

560
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: in terms of how nuanced and complicated this issue is

561
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: even prison nurseries as a solution comes with its own

562
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: set of drawbacks. According to the National Women's Loss Center report,

563
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: they've actually heard from mothers with children and prison nurseries

564
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: who have said that their baby's close proximity has allowed

565
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: prison staff to coerce and manipulate them by threatening to

566
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: deny access to their own children. So, even in this

567
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: situation where it's presented as a solution, because prison can

568
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: be such a toxic place, having your baby close by

569
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: can sometimes even be an just another way that you

570
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: can be manipulated by prison staff, right, which is outbly

571
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: cruel but not surprising for you know, I think if

572
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: Orange is the New Black taught me anything that it's

573
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: really these prison wards lording over the prisoners and using

574
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: a complex array of both carrots and sticks to control

575
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: the population. And at the end of the day, we

576
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind that it's our taxpayer dollars

577
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: that are going to pay for our prisons. Even the

578
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 1: private ones are supported at least in part, if not

579
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: in total, by taxpayer funds. So this is our money

580
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: that's going to the shackles that are being used on

581
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: pregnant women during labor. This is our money that's going

582
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: to pay the salaries of the wardens who are implementing

583
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: policies that might be not in compliance with federal law.

584
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: So we have to stay vigilant on paying attention to

585
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: these issues. And I have to give a shout out

586
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: to the National Women's Law Center and supporting organizations like

587
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: the NWLC and other advocacy organizations who are fighting on

588
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: behalf of prisoners rights. Yeah, just to add to that,

589
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: even if you're someone who is the most hard line,

590
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: you know, if you're in jail, you deserve to be there,

591
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. If if this is your tax money,

592
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: don't you want to make sure that your tax dollars

593
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: are being spent in the most cost effective way. Let's

594
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: say that you're just someone who is concerned about the

595
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: bottom line. Yeah, prison is going to be spending your

596
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: tax money in more cost effective ways and reducing recidivism

597
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: at the same time, and they might not be doing that, right.

598
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: I love when you make a conservative argument for anything, Rida.

599
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: It's fun to watch. In my heart of hearts, I'm like,

600
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: we should get rid of all prisons. Yeah, I love

601
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: it though. Um, all right, well, I'm glad. Thank you

602
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: for making me laugh at the end of this blood

603
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 1: boiling episode. Smithy listeners, we want to hear from you.

604
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: Feel free to rage with us on Twitter at Mom's

605
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast, send us your more nuanced thoughts the email

606
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com, and

607
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: keep this conversation going with us on Instagram at stuff

608
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: Mom Never told you to. Pat b and Per