WEBVTT - Poorly Understood 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and a welcome to woke F Daily 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.439 with me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Long 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.360 Island Bunker. You know, I often say to you that 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.280 you need to take a break so that you do 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.680 not have a breakdown. And with all of the compacted 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.560 crises that we are dealing with at this time and 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.400 making the march to midterms, there never seems like the 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:40.200 right time to take a break. But I say that 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.879 you have to make that time. And so for me, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.360 dear friends here on woke F, I am going to 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.760 be taking a much needed vacation so that I can 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.840 rest and recharge as we head into what I believe 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.400 is going to be one of the craziest falls we've 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.360 ever seen. I have left you with eight amazing episodes 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.559 that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:14.160 some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.319 looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.640 and a look inside frankly with some of the guests 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.920 that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:33.320 have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.760 video episodes every single day because of their belief and 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.319 financial support of woke F throughout the years, and so 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.720 I'm really excited to bring all of you across all 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.600 the platforms that you listen to woke F daily on 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.480 these episodes and these interviews that I think will be 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.440 enticing to all of you. They hit on all of 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:02.600 the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F, 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:08.680 from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.600 which my God and the need and the need and 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.320 the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:22.560 allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.359 have been thrown at us over the past couple of years. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.040 And so, friends, while I will be out from the show, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.640 I will not be out of sight for the next 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.120 several days, and so you can continue to follow me 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.280 on Instagram and on Twitter at D two Cents, D 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.639 E two c E n TF. Of course, I will 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.520 be dropping in with my two cents and you can 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.520 check me out on TikTok, where I'm sure certain that 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.040 I will drop a few videos in the next couple 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.880 of days, and there you can find me at Danielle 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:01.160 Moody Underscore. I hope that you all enjoy these next 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:05.080 fantastic episodes that we have. Do drop your thoughts in 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.079 the comments section, do hit me up in the socials. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.920 Just don't draw my attention to anything that is terrible 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.000 because I'm taking a break from the news. But dear friends, 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.960 I really do hope that you enjoy these next eight 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.600 episodes and I will see you with brand new episodes 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:27.160 after Labor Day. Hey there, I want to tell you 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.000 about another podcast I think you'll love. The Brown Girl's 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.160 Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Goehler, the president 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.480 of Emerge BGG, is the one stop shop for women 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.360 of color who want to hear and talk about the 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.120 world of politics. Join a Shanty this season as she 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.680 talks to incredible women of color who are changing the 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.320 face of politics and tackling some of the most important 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.160 issues facing the United States, from reproductive justice to voting rights, 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.440 to climate change and more. Tune in every Tuesday wherever 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:58.040 you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm David Plots of Slith 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.960 Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, it can be 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.680 tricky to sort through all the noise and the news. 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.000 Each week on the gap Fest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathalona 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.640 and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:16.000 tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.559 We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.280 thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:28.200 subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest new episodes every Thursday, folks. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.240 I'm so excited to be joined on woke Affiddaily with 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.280 the Professor Social Scientists and Herbert S. Hadley, Professor of 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.440 Social Welfare at Brown School at Washington University in Saint Louis, 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.360 Mark Rank, who is also the co author of Poorly 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.000 Understood What America Gets Wrong About Poverty. Mark, thank you 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.359 so much for making the time to join us. I 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:59.880 think that your book is incredibly important. I have always thought, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.080 and I've always discussed the fact that we don't have 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.800 the right conversations with regard to poverty in this country. 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.880 We never have, and I frankly believe it's because we 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.960 have set up our government in a way that we 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:21.240 reinforce white supremacy. So if we tell the tale about 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.400 black and brown people being on the margins of society, 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.760 not deserving, not part of the mainstream, and they are 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.640 the ones that require welfare and require public assistance, then 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:41.200 we can perpetuate the lie. Right. Your book with your 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.320 co authors kind of blast that wide open. And so 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.960 I want to start off with what are some of 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.560 the common misconceptions and myths that we share as a 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:59.680 country around poverty. Yeah, well, first, thanks Daniel for having 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:04.640 me on. There are obviously a lot of different myths 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.839 out there, but I think one to start with is 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:14.080 this idea that well, poverty is going to affect somebody 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.960 else but not me, that it's an issue of them 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.960 rather than an issue of us. And one of the 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.760 ways we start out in the book is to say, actually, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:30.039 if you look across people's lifetimes, majority of Americans at 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.679 some point will experience a year below the official poverty line. 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:39.839 So between the ages of twenty and seventy five, sixty 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.600 percent of folks will find themselves in poverty, and three 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:48.279 quarters of Americans will find themselves either in poverty or 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.760 near poverty for at least a year. And this really 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:57.040 puts a different perspective on it because it says, you know, actually, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.200 poverty is an issue that affects most of us us 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:05.000 in one way or another. So that's that's one sort 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.720 of variation on this idea that the myth of poverty 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.440 being an issue of them rather than an issue of us. Um. 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.520 There are many others as well. For example, we often 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.080 our image of poverty is often that of folks of 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.320 color in inner city areas that have been in poverty 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.560 for long periods of time and that are using social 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.320 safety net programs. It turns out, it turns out that 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:38.800 that's that image is not correct. Actually, most people in 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.320 poverty do not live in high poverty inner city neighborhoods. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.520 They live in a variety of places. They live in suburbs, 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.920 they live in rural America. So I guess the point 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:55.080 of this is to say that the reach of poverty 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.680 is very wide, and it affects a lot of folks 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.040 at some point in their lives. Why do you think 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.920 that we, I mean, from your research and the work 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:10.600 that you've done throughout your career. Is it just the 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:16.880 storytelling aspect that needs to shift because we've perpetuated the 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.240 lie the media And when I say we, I mean 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:24.240 the media has perpetuated the lie with regard to poverty 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.600 and what we're seeing, you know. But it's while we 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.880 have this image right of black and brown people in 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:36.079 the inner city, in these dilapidated communities as being impoverished. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.360 What we know to be true is that if a 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.480 four hundred dollars bill were to come due in most 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.320 American household, seventy five percent of those households would be 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.000 unable to pay that bill. Right. We know that healthcare 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.520 continues to bankrupt families, which is why we had the 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.839 push for the Affordable Care Act so that you're, regardless 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.960 of your economics suation, you could still get healthcare outside 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.880 of an emergency room. So we know we hold those 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:13.240 facts while we still perpetuate the lie. And so how 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.240 do you think that we disrupt that? Well, I think 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.400 you know, one thing is is addressing that and addressing 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.760 that with you know, good solid evidence and facts and research, 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.720 which is what I've tried to do throughout my career. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:31.959 But I think you know, an interesting question here is 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.520 to step back and to say, look, so we go 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.440 we in the book, we go through all kinds of 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.680 miss and basically show that those myths are not true. 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.280 So the question is, if that's the case, how come 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.640 we continue to hold those myths? Which I think one 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.520 of the things you're asking here, and we can step 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.960 back and say, well, who's benefiting from these myths? Who's 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.200 benefiting from the perpetuation of these miss and I think 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.600 we can point to several different groups. One would be 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:09.560 political actors and politicians. Politicians have used the issue of 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:15.160 the undeserving for the lazy person on welfare to score 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:20.080 political points over and over and over again. So Ronald 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.000 Reagan was infamous in terms of his use of the 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:28.559 welfare Queen Bill Clinton talked about we want to end 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:34.400 welfare as we know it. Donald Trump railed against welfare recipients. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:39.079 And what that's done is it's scored them political points 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.560 in the American population, and so they've had a vested interests. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.240 But there's also we could step back and say, you know, actually, 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:52.920 these myths that the poor are deserving of their situation 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.480 really benefits those on the top because what it says 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.920 is that I don't have any responsibility. It's not my 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.000 problem if you're poor. Whereas if we say, actually, these 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:09.520 problems are structural. It has to do with our economic policies, 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.640 it has to do with our political and policy programs. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.360 If we do that, then we have to say, you 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.320 know what, we all have a responsibility in terms of this. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.640 So I think that's a really important question to ask. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.880 You know, who's benefiting from these myths? And I would 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.920 argue that the folks that have benefited have been basically 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.640 the folks in power, who are who are content with 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:37.040 the status quo of widening inequality and more of the 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.520 gains going to those at the top. But doesn't that then, Mark, 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:47.000 isn't that going to stress our systems even more by 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.760 not looking at the gap that is purposefully being widened. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.440 I mean, so I want to look at this now 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.080 in the context of the current moment that we're in 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.920 with COVID nineteen, which has created, which has not created, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.800 but I will say, revealed the inequities that we have 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.880 always known that have existed, right, and we know who 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:15.640 is bearing the brunt both economically as it pertains to 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.880 business closures, school closures, and all of the kind of 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.360 um points of of of of business and wealth creation 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.679 around these systems that are now shut shuttered right to 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:34.560 some extent um. But we're seeing through this, through this revelation, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.920 exactly how broken our system is. And so how do 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:44.000 you look now at these food lines right at people 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.960 being one paycheck away at the desire of one political 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:54.240 party not to provide relief because they don't think it's needed. Um, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.360 how do how do we use this moment to kind 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.480 of to to to as a war shed moment around 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.240 how we look at poverty. Yeah, you know, if you 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.920 look in the past and look at whenever we had 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:12.239 changes in policies, they've usually come at times of economic turmoil. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:16.959 So the nineteen thirties saw the Great Depression, the rise 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.720 of the New Deal, that's when Social Security began, unemployment insurance. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.920 There was a feeling that there's a structural failing here 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.440 and we need to address it on a federal level, 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.680 and that's what FDR did. We're at a point now 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.480 where we're seeing the same kinds of things because of 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.840 the pandemic. It's kind of pulling the bandage off of 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.800 the scar and um and is showing us just what 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.960 you're saying that you know, there are you know, forty 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.880 fifty percent of folks in this country who don't have 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:56.800 four hundred dollars to cover an emergency. So so yes, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.280 I think that you know, we're at a moment in 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.680 time where we can use this to really say, let's 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.520 start thinking about some of these structural issues. But let 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.520 me throw in another thing here that to this, and 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.720 that is, you know, people often will say, well, you know, 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.720 I feel bad about folks in poverty, but again, it 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.040 doesn't really affect me, and I don't really have to 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.120 pay for that. Well, I did a study a couple 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.280 of years ago, and what we tried, and what we 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.840 did in that study was we estimated how much childhood 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.040 poverty in the United States costs us on an annual basis. 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.960 We know that childhood poverty is associated with higher healthcare costs, 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.400 we know it's associated with less economic productivity when children 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.600 become adults, and we know it's related to higher criminal 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:49.320 justice costs. And so we factored all all those elements 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:54.680 in and what we found was that childhood poverty costs 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.160 the United States on an annual basis around one trillion dollars. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.680 To put that in perspective, in twenty fifteen, that was 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.800 twenty eight percent of the entire budget of the entire 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:10.120 federal budget. And so the point of this is to say, 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.760 it's not like we aren't paying for poverty. What we're doing, 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.520 right is we're paying for it on the back end 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.520 of the problem rather than on the front end of 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.640 the problem. And it's always more effective to deal with 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.680 the problem on the front end. And that's what we 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.440 need to think about here in this moment of the 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.760 pandemic and seeing these kinds of structural failings that are 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.240 going on. We need to invest in our people and 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.680 by doing that, we'll save money in the long run. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.440 Part of the investment, though, is believing that people are 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.320 worthy of that investment. And I think that we have 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.000 set up a political system where you have one party 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:59.560 that believes that government can provide abundance living wages, safety nets, security, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.440 and then you have another party that's like, no, these 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.640 people are undeserving, they want to hand out and we're 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:07.360 not going to give it to them. And were we 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.920 are the holders of the purse strings, right, And so 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.480 that is a shift in in thinking that needs to 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.760 happen in order to create a shift in policy. How 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.120 does this shift in thinking happen? Yeah, great, great question. 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.240 Here's a way I like to think about this, because 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.560 I think you're exactly right. We need a shift in thinking. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.880 We need to think about poverty on a different level. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:39.280 Here's the example. Let's take the analogy of musical chairs, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.200 and let's say we've got eight chairs and we have 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:48.200 ten people playing. They're circling around music stops. Two people 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:49.560 are going to lose out, and so we ask the 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.320 question who's going to lose out? Well, if we just 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.920 focus on the two folks that lost out, we'll say, well, 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.320 they weren't fast enough, or they were in a bad 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.960 position when the music stopped, and those are all reasons 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.600 for why they lost out. But if we step back 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.880 and we say, wait a minute, the structure of the 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.320 game ensures that two people are going to lose out, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:17.480 and therefore those individual characteristics only explain who loses out 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.800 at the game, not why the game produces losers in 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.080 the first place. And what we need to do in 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.320 this country is step back and look at the structure 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.320 of the game and saying why are people losing out. 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.239 They're losing out because we don't have enough jobs that 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.760 can support families at a decent wage. People are losing 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.360 out because we don't have national healthcare, we don't have 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.479 childcare that's available, we don't have programs to protect folks. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.800 So what we need to do is, instead of saying 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.960 who loses out at the game, let's focus on the 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.280 question of why the game is producing losers in the 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.840 first place. And that's a real paradigm shift that you know, 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.359 I want to sort of promote. Certainly our book is 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.040 advocating for that kind of change. I mean, that is 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:11.600 a massive That is a massive shift, because essentially what 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.320 you're calling for are the writers of the rules of 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:21.080 that game to recognize that they created a game purposefully 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.639 so that people would lose out, so that there could 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.000 be winners and losers. And it's and I think about this, 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.680 and again I always go back to there are two 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.560 ways to look at the world. You look at it 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.520 in terms of scarcity. There is not enough, and so 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.119 I need to hoard and have and have mind mind mind, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.040 or that the world is in fact abundant, and that 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.720 there is more than enough, and we need to create 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:57.639 structures and so that everything is equitably shared. And I 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.760 just you know, when I think about that, and I think, oh, well, 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.200 that's easy. We just have to make this shift. But 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:09.000 if that shift means that in some people's mind, the politicians, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.720 the one percent, that they are losing out, yeah, right, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.640 that they no longer will benefit from the crooked game 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.439 that they've created, right, but they are the ones that 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.280 are in charge of the game. It's like, how do 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:27.159 you shift that? Well, you know, yes, you raise really 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.320 good points here, but it's still true that we live 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.520 in a democracy and we do. Now I'm I'm the 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.720 last person to sort of be pie in the sky, 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.960 but we do elect officials to represent the people and 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.919 what we need to do. I mean, things like the 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.520 Black Lives Matter movement is a great example of people 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.960 coming together to say, hey, this needs to change, and 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.280 it's and there has been changed and we're moving towards change. 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.640 We need to do the same thing here with thinking 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:06.119 about poverty and economic inequality. We need folks to start saying, hey, 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.640 we need to change here. We need to have our 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.879 elected officials pay attention to this. Now, again, that's hard 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.240 to do, but I think you know what we're talking 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.560 you know, democracy really begins with discussions and conversations and 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.560 you talking to people and me talking to people and 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.640 talking on the air to folks. You know, because again, 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.760 as I said, you know, eighty eighty percent of the 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.320 population if you look at what's happened in America over 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.879 the last since really the early nineteen seventies, the bottom 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:42.679 eighty percent has completely stagnated in terms of economic gains. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.359 All of those gains have been focused on the top, 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.320 particularly to the top five and one percent. So it's 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.000 like there are a lot of people that this is 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.399 that this should be a key issue, and we should 0:20:55.440 --> 0:21:00.760 think about organizing and getting people to recognize that. Yes, um, 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.399 you know, as you point out that this is a 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.520 rich country. We do have a lot of resources, and 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.560 we certainly can afford to start thinking about some of 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.919 these policies that we don't have. I mean, that's the 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.200 other thing here is that you have to ask yourself, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.520 why is the United States the only country, the only 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:23.800 high economy country that does not provide universal healthcare yep, 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.520 that does not provide childcare assistance, that that does not 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:32.159 provide affordable housing and and I think one of the 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.960 reasons is, you know, our history has been steeped in 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.959 the idea of the rugged individual of reliance. You do 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.119 it on your own, you don't depend on other people, 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.000 and you know, and we need to confront that, and 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.840 we need to say, actually that that is not working. 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.240 That is not working anymore, and we need a new 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.040 way of thinking. You know that one of the last 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.760 questions that I want to ask you by because I 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.360 find this topic. I've always found this topic really fascinating. 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.800 Is this you know I'm looking at it was, I 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:08.919 think the Global Finance magazine, right, And in twenty twenty 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.760 they put out their list of the top twenty richest countries, 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.159 as they do every single year, America is not in 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:21.080 the top ten. America is actually number eleven according to 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:29.560 them and the metrics that they use. Could it be that, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:35.639 instead of let's say, trying to convince politicians and the 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.160 one percent to do the right thing for the right 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:43.040 thing's sake, do we shift a discussion that is about 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:50.520 America losing right its ability to provide its standing as 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.160 one of the wealthiest nations because of the ways in 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.920 which we have purposefully caught our nose to spite our face, 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.840 meaning that if we were to actually invest in the 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:05.880 marginalized communities that we demonize right, then we could propel 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:10.840 our GDP, We could propel our offerings to the world. 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.320 Is that a conversation that we need to have instead 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.920 of you, instead of airing on the side of better 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:22.359 angels when we know clearly not everyone has better angels. Absolutely, 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:26.600 I mean yes, we should argue about better angels. But 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.840 there's no question that what you're saying is absolutely on target. 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:38.920 That our economy is dependent on our workforce and investing 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.320 in our human capital, and what we've been doing for 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:46.200 so long in this country is writing off a significant 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:50.320 percentage of our population. So what we need to do 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.680 is we need to invest in our people. That means 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.800 providing healthcare, childcare. It also means providing that every American 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.600 child should get a hop quality education, which is not 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.280 the case when you look at I live in Saint Louis, 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.040 and you go to any metropolitan area and you go 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.080 to a poor neighborhood and you look at the schools 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.080 and the resources available versus a rich community, there's a 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:19.120 world of difference. That's wrong. That's wrong morally, but that's 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:23.280 also wrong economically because we're not investing in all of 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:25.679 our people. And if you look at those countries that 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:29.040 are doing really well, they do invest in everyone. And 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.600 so I think that's exactly the kind of argument, along 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.160 with these other arguments we've been making, that need that 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:37.560 that we need to do, we need to make in 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.840 the future. Yeah, I think that you know, we we 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:47.000 have a tendency to want to appeal to people's moral standing. 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.080 And what we have to understand is that everyone doesn't 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:52.360 have the same set of morals and the same set 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:54.879 of values, and that if we are truly going to 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:56.840 make a difference, it's kind of you know, it's the 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.560 way that you run various media campaigns. It's a way 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:03.040 that you do target marketing, right. Different people are moved 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.520 by different energies. Yeah, and that's why you know. I 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:09.200 mentioned earlier the cost of childhood poverty study that I did. 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:11.719 But here's another thing that came out of that study, 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.400 which is which is a very hard nosed economic argument. 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.880 For every dollar we spend in this country to reduce 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:23.600 childhood poverty, we would save between seven and twelve dollars 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:28.879 down the road in saved costs. That's a huge bang 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:32.600 for your buck. And so by investing in people we 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:36.520 are more productive economically, we will do better, we will 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.960 save a lot of money down the road, and so 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:44.360 I think that's a very powerful argument. Mark, I want 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:46.320 to thank you so much for taking the time to 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:49.000 join us on woke a f I think that this 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:52.359 is an incredibly complex issue that needs to be unpacked 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.080 and discussed more. Because I do think that we are 0:25:55.200 --> 0:26:00.240 very distant, very arms length between this seriousness of the 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.600 poverty situation that is unfolding in America, and I think 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:07.199 is getting worse and was already on track to be 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:12.720 worse than you know, generations prior. But COVID nineteen has 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:17.159 really illuminated the discrepancies that we have in wealth creation, 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.240