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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and a welcome to woke F Daily

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Speaker 1: with me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Long

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Speaker 1: Island Bunker. You know, I often say to you that

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Speaker 1: you need to take a break so that you do

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Speaker 1: not have a breakdown. And with all of the compacted

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Speaker 1: crises that we are dealing with at this time and

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Speaker 1: making the march to midterms, there never seems like the

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Speaker 1: right time to take a break. But I say that

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Speaker 1: you have to make that time. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: dear friends here on woke F, I am going to

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Speaker 1: be taking a much needed vacation so that I can

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Speaker 1: rest and recharge as we head into what I believe

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Speaker 1: is going to be one of the craziest falls we've

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Speaker 1: ever seen. I have left you with eight amazing episodes

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Speaker 1: that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with

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Speaker 1: some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that

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Speaker 1: looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being,

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Speaker 1: and a look inside frankly with some of the guests

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Speaker 1: that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations

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Speaker 1: have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get

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Speaker 1: video episodes every single day because of their belief and

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Speaker 1: financial support of woke F throughout the years, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to bring all of you across all

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Speaker 1: the platforms that you listen to woke F daily on

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Speaker 1: these episodes and these interviews that I think will be

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Speaker 1: enticing to all of you. They hit on all of

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Speaker 1: the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F,

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Speaker 1: from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality,

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Speaker 1: which my God and the need and the need and

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Speaker 1: the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that

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Speaker 1: allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that

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Speaker 1: have been thrown at us over the past couple of years.

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Speaker 1: And so, friends, while I will be out from the show,

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Speaker 1: I will not be out of sight for the next

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Speaker 1: several days, and so you can continue to follow me

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and on Twitter at D two Cents, D

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Speaker 1: E two c E n TF. Of course, I will

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Speaker 1: be dropping in with my two cents and you can

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Speaker 1: check me out on TikTok, where I'm sure certain that

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Speaker 1: I will drop a few videos in the next couple

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Speaker 1: of days, and there you can find me at Danielle

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Speaker 1: Moody Underscore. I hope that you all enjoy these next

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Speaker 1: fantastic episodes that we have. Do drop your thoughts in

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Speaker 1: the comments section, do hit me up in the socials.

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Speaker 1: Just don't draw my attention to anything that is terrible

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Speaker 1: because I'm taking a break from the news. But dear friends,

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Speaker 1: I really do hope that you enjoy these next eight

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Speaker 1: episodes and I will see you with brand new episodes

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Speaker 1: after Labor Day. Hey there, I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: about another podcast I think you'll love. The Brown Girl's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Goehler, the president

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Speaker 1: of Emerge BGG, is the one stop shop for women

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Speaker 1: of color who want to hear and talk about the

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Speaker 1: world of politics. Join a Shanty this season as she

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Speaker 1: talks to incredible women of color who are changing the

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Speaker 1: face of politics and tackling some of the most important

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Speaker 1: issues facing the United States, from reproductive justice to voting rights,

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Speaker 1: to climate change and more. Tune in every Tuesday wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm David Plots of Slith

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Speaker 1: Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, it can be

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Speaker 1: tricky to sort through all the noise and the news.

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Speaker 1: Each week on the gap Fest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathalona

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Speaker 1: and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and

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Speaker 1: tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree,

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Speaker 1: We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver

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Speaker 1: thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So

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Speaker 1: subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest new episodes every Thursday, folks.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be joined on woke Affiddaily with

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Speaker 1: the Professor Social Scientists and Herbert S. Hadley, Professor of

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Speaker 1: Social Welfare at Brown School at Washington University in Saint Louis,

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Speaker 1: Mark Rank, who is also the co author of Poorly

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Speaker 1: Understood What America Gets Wrong About Poverty. Mark, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for making the time to join us. I

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Speaker 1: think that your book is incredibly important. I have always thought,

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Speaker 1: and I've always discussed the fact that we don't have

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Speaker 1: the right conversations with regard to poverty in this country.

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Speaker 1: We never have, and I frankly believe it's because we

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Speaker 1: have set up our government in a way that we

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Speaker 1: reinforce white supremacy. So if we tell the tale about

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Speaker 1: black and brown people being on the margins of society,

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Speaker 1: not deserving, not part of the mainstream, and they are

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Speaker 1: the ones that require welfare and require public assistance, then

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Speaker 1: we can perpetuate the lie. Right. Your book with your

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Speaker 1: co authors kind of blast that wide open. And so

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Speaker 1: I want to start off with what are some of

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Speaker 1: the common misconceptions and myths that we share as a

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Speaker 1: country around poverty. Yeah, well, first, thanks Daniel for having

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Speaker 1: me on. There are obviously a lot of different myths

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Speaker 1: out there, but I think one to start with is

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Speaker 1: this idea that well, poverty is going to affect somebody

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Speaker 1: else but not me, that it's an issue of them

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Speaker 1: rather than an issue of us. And one of the

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Speaker 1: ways we start out in the book is to say, actually,

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Speaker 1: if you look across people's lifetimes, majority of Americans at

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Speaker 1: some point will experience a year below the official poverty line.

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Speaker 1: So between the ages of twenty and seventy five, sixty

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Speaker 1: percent of folks will find themselves in poverty, and three

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Speaker 1: quarters of Americans will find themselves either in poverty or

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Speaker 1: near poverty for at least a year. And this really

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Speaker 1: puts a different perspective on it because it says, you know, actually,

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Speaker 1: poverty is an issue that affects most of us us

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Speaker 1: in one way or another. So that's that's one sort

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Speaker 1: of variation on this idea that the myth of poverty

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Speaker 1: being an issue of them rather than an issue of us. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are many others as well. For example, we often

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Speaker 1: our image of poverty is often that of folks of

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Speaker 1: color in inner city areas that have been in poverty

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Speaker 1: for long periods of time and that are using social

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Speaker 1: safety net programs. It turns out, it turns out that

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Speaker 1: that's that image is not correct. Actually, most people in

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Speaker 1: poverty do not live in high poverty inner city neighborhoods.

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Speaker 1: They live in a variety of places. They live in suburbs,

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Speaker 1: they live in rural America. So I guess the point

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Speaker 1: of this is to say that the reach of poverty

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Speaker 1: is very wide, and it affects a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: at some point in their lives. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: that we, I mean, from your research and the work

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Speaker 1: that you've done throughout your career. Is it just the

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Speaker 1: storytelling aspect that needs to shift because we've perpetuated the

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Speaker 1: lie the media And when I say we, I mean

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Speaker 1: the media has perpetuated the lie with regard to poverty

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Speaker 1: and what we're seeing, you know. But it's while we

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Speaker 1: have this image right of black and brown people in

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Speaker 1: the inner city, in these dilapidated communities as being impoverished.

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Speaker 1: What we know to be true is that if a

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Speaker 1: four hundred dollars bill were to come due in most

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Speaker 1: American household, seventy five percent of those households would be

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Speaker 1: unable to pay that bill. Right. We know that healthcare

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Speaker 1: continues to bankrupt families, which is why we had the

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Speaker 1: push for the Affordable Care Act so that you're, regardless

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Speaker 1: of your economics suation, you could still get healthcare outside

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Speaker 1: of an emergency room. So we know we hold those

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Speaker 1: facts while we still perpetuate the lie. And so how

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Speaker 1: do you think that we disrupt that? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: you know, one thing is is addressing that and addressing

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Speaker 1: that with you know, good solid evidence and facts and research,

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Speaker 1: which is what I've tried to do throughout my career.

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Speaker 1: But I think you know, an interesting question here is

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Speaker 1: to step back and to say, look, so we go

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Speaker 1: we in the book, we go through all kinds of

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Speaker 1: miss and basically show that those myths are not true.

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Speaker 1: So the question is, if that's the case, how come

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Speaker 1: we continue to hold those myths? Which I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things you're asking here, and we can step

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Speaker 1: back and say, well, who's benefiting from these myths? Who's

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Speaker 1: benefiting from the perpetuation of these miss and I think

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Speaker 1: we can point to several different groups. One would be

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Speaker 1: political actors and politicians. Politicians have used the issue of

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Speaker 1: the undeserving for the lazy person on welfare to score

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Speaker 1: political points over and over and over again. So Ronald

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Speaker 1: Reagan was infamous in terms of his use of the

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Speaker 1: welfare Queen Bill Clinton talked about we want to end

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Speaker 1: welfare as we know it. Donald Trump railed against welfare recipients.

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Speaker 1: And what that's done is it's scored them political points

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Speaker 1: in the American population, and so they've had a vested interests.

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Speaker 1: But there's also we could step back and say, you know, actually,

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Speaker 1: these myths that the poor are deserving of their situation

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Speaker 1: really benefits those on the top because what it says

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Speaker 1: is that I don't have any responsibility. It's not my

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Speaker 1: problem if you're poor. Whereas if we say, actually, these

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Speaker 1: problems are structural. It has to do with our economic policies,

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Speaker 1: it has to do with our political and policy programs.

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Speaker 1: If we do that, then we have to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, we all have a responsibility in terms of this.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's a really important question to ask.

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Speaker 1: You know, who's benefiting from these myths? And I would

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Speaker 1: argue that the folks that have benefited have been basically

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Speaker 1: the folks in power, who are who are content with

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Speaker 1: the status quo of widening inequality and more of the

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Speaker 1: gains going to those at the top. But doesn't that then, Mark,

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Speaker 1: isn't that going to stress our systems even more by

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Speaker 1: not looking at the gap that is purposefully being widened.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so I want to look at this now

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Speaker 1: in the context of the current moment that we're in

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Speaker 1: with COVID nineteen, which has created, which has not created,

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Speaker 1: but I will say, revealed the inequities that we have

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Speaker 1: always known that have existed, right, and we know who

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Speaker 1: is bearing the brunt both economically as it pertains to

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Speaker 1: business closures, school closures, and all of the kind of

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Speaker 1: um points of of of of business and wealth creation

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Speaker 1: around these systems that are now shut shuttered right to

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Speaker 1: some extent um. But we're seeing through this, through this revelation,

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Speaker 1: exactly how broken our system is. And so how do

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Speaker 1: you look now at these food lines right at people

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Speaker 1: being one paycheck away at the desire of one political

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Speaker 1: party not to provide relief because they don't think it's needed. Um,

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Speaker 1: how do how do we use this moment to kind

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Speaker 1: of to to to as a war shed moment around

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Speaker 1: how we look at poverty. Yeah, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: look in the past and look at whenever we had

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Speaker 1: changes in policies, they've usually come at times of economic turmoil.

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Speaker 1: So the nineteen thirties saw the Great Depression, the rise

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Speaker 1: of the New Deal, that's when Social Security began, unemployment insurance.

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Speaker 1: There was a feeling that there's a structural failing here

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Speaker 1: and we need to address it on a federal level,

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Speaker 1: and that's what FDR did. We're at a point now

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Speaker 1: where we're seeing the same kinds of things because of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. It's kind of pulling the bandage off of

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Speaker 1: the scar and um and is showing us just what

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Speaker 1: you're saying that you know, there are you know, forty

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of folks in this country who don't have

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Speaker 1: four hundred dollars to cover an emergency. So so yes,

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, we're at a moment in

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Speaker 1: time where we can use this to really say, let's

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Speaker 1: start thinking about some of these structural issues. But let

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Speaker 1: me throw in another thing here that to this, and

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Speaker 1: that is, you know, people often will say, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel bad about folks in poverty, but again, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really affect me, and I don't really have to

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Speaker 1: pay for that. Well, I did a study a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, and what we tried, and what we

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Speaker 1: did in that study was we estimated how much childhood

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Speaker 1: poverty in the United States costs us on an annual basis.

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Speaker 1: We know that childhood poverty is associated with higher healthcare costs,

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Speaker 1: we know it's associated with less economic productivity when children

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Speaker 1: become adults, and we know it's related to higher criminal

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Speaker 1: justice costs. And so we factored all all those elements

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Speaker 1: in and what we found was that childhood poverty costs

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Speaker 1: the United States on an annual basis around one trillion dollars.

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Speaker 1: To put that in perspective, in twenty fifteen, that was

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Speaker 1: twenty eight percent of the entire budget of the entire

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Speaker 1: federal budget. And so the point of this is to say,

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Speaker 1: it's not like we aren't paying for poverty. What we're doing,

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Speaker 1: right is we're paying for it on the back end

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Speaker 1: of the problem rather than on the front end of

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Speaker 1: the problem. And it's always more effective to deal with

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Speaker 1: the problem on the front end. And that's what we

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Speaker 1: need to think about here in this moment of the

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Speaker 1: pandemic and seeing these kinds of structural failings that are

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Speaker 1: going on. We need to invest in our people and

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Speaker 1: by doing that, we'll save money in the long run.

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Speaker 1: Part of the investment, though, is believing that people are

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Speaker 1: worthy of that investment. And I think that we have

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Speaker 1: set up a political system where you have one party

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Speaker 1: that believes that government can provide abundance living wages, safety nets, security,

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Speaker 1: and then you have another party that's like, no, these

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Speaker 1: people are undeserving, they want to hand out and we're

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Speaker 1: not going to give it to them. And were we

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Speaker 1: are the holders of the purse strings, right, And so

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Speaker 1: that is a shift in in thinking that needs to

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Speaker 1: happen in order to create a shift in policy. How

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Speaker 1: does this shift in thinking happen? Yeah, great, great question.

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Speaker 1: Here's a way I like to think about this, because

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Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. We need a shift in thinking.

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Speaker 1: We need to think about poverty on a different level.

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Speaker 1: Here's the example. Let's take the analogy of musical chairs,

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Speaker 1: and let's say we've got eight chairs and we have

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Speaker 1: ten people playing. They're circling around music stops. Two people

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Speaker 1: are going to lose out, and so we ask the

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Speaker 1: question who's going to lose out? Well, if we just

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Speaker 1: focus on the two folks that lost out, we'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: they weren't fast enough, or they were in a bad

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Speaker 1: position when the music stopped, and those are all reasons

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Speaker 1: for why they lost out. But if we step back

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Speaker 1: and we say, wait a minute, the structure of the

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Speaker 1: game ensures that two people are going to lose out,

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Speaker 1: and therefore those individual characteristics only explain who loses out

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Speaker 1: at the game, not why the game produces losers in

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Speaker 1: the first place. And what we need to do in

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Speaker 1: this country is step back and look at the structure

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Speaker 1: of the game and saying why are people losing out.

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Speaker 1: They're losing out because we don't have enough jobs that

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Speaker 1: can support families at a decent wage. People are losing

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Speaker 1: out because we don't have national healthcare, we don't have

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Speaker 1: childcare that's available, we don't have programs to protect folks.

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Speaker 1: So what we need to do is, instead of saying

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Speaker 1: who loses out at the game, let's focus on the

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Speaker 1: question of why the game is producing losers in the

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Speaker 1: first place. And that's a real paradigm shift that you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to sort of promote. Certainly our book is

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Speaker 1: advocating for that kind of change. I mean, that is

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Speaker 1: a massive That is a massive shift, because essentially what

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Speaker 1: you're calling for are the writers of the rules of

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Speaker 1: that game to recognize that they created a game purposefully

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Speaker 1: so that people would lose out, so that there could

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Speaker 1: be winners and losers. And it's and I think about this,

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Speaker 1: and again I always go back to there are two

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Speaker 1: ways to look at the world. You look at it

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Speaker 1: in terms of scarcity. There is not enough, and so

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Speaker 1: I need to hoard and have and have mind mind mind,

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Speaker 1: or that the world is in fact abundant, and that

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Speaker 1: there is more than enough, and we need to create

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Speaker 1: structures and so that everything is equitably shared. And I

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Speaker 1: just you know, when I think about that, and I think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's easy. We just have to make this shift. But

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Speaker 1: if that shift means that in some people's mind, the politicians,

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Speaker 1: the one percent, that they are losing out, yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: that they no longer will benefit from the crooked game

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Speaker 1: that they've created, right, but they are the ones that

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Speaker 1: are in charge of the game. It's like, how do

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Speaker 1: you shift that? Well, you know, yes, you raise really

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Speaker 1: good points here, but it's still true that we live

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Speaker 1: in a democracy and we do. Now I'm I'm the

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Speaker 1: last person to sort of be pie in the sky,

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Speaker 1: but we do elect officials to represent the people and

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Speaker 1: what we need to do. I mean, things like the

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement is a great example of people

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Speaker 1: coming together to say, hey, this needs to change, and

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Speaker 1: it's and there has been changed and we're moving towards change.

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Speaker 1: We need to do the same thing here with thinking

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Speaker 1: about poverty and economic inequality. We need folks to start saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we need to change here. We need to have our

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Speaker 1: elected officials pay attention to this. Now, again, that's hard

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Speaker 1: to do, but I think you know what we're talking

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Speaker 1: you know, democracy really begins with discussions and conversations and

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Speaker 1: you talking to people and me talking to people and

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Speaker 1: talking on the air to folks. You know, because again,

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Speaker 1: as I said, you know, eighty eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: population if you look at what's happened in America over

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Speaker 1: the last since really the early nineteen seventies, the bottom

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Speaker 1: eighty percent has completely stagnated in terms of economic gains.

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Speaker 1: All of those gains have been focused on the top,

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Speaker 1: particularly to the top five and one percent. So it's

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Speaker 1: like there are a lot of people that this is

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Speaker 1: that this should be a key issue, and we should

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Speaker 1: think about organizing and getting people to recognize that. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you point out that this is a

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Speaker 1: rich country. We do have a lot of resources, and

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Speaker 1: we certainly can afford to start thinking about some of

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Speaker 1: these policies that we don't have. I mean, that's the

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Speaker 1: other thing here is that you have to ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: why is the United States the only country, the only

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Speaker 1: high economy country that does not provide universal healthcare yep,

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Speaker 1: that does not provide childcare assistance, that that does not

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Speaker 1: provide affordable housing and and I think one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons is, you know, our history has been steeped in

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Speaker 1: the idea of the rugged individual of reliance. You do

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Speaker 1: it on your own, you don't depend on other people,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and we need to confront that, and

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Speaker 1: we need to say, actually that that is not working.

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Speaker 1: That is not working anymore, and we need a new

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Speaker 1: way of thinking. You know that one of the last

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Speaker 1: questions that I want to ask you by because I

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Speaker 1: find this topic. I've always found this topic really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Is this you know I'm looking at it was, I

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Speaker 1: think the Global Finance magazine, right, And in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: they put out their list of the top twenty richest countries,

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Speaker 1: as they do every single year, America is not in

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Speaker 1: the top ten. America is actually number eleven according to

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Speaker 1: them and the metrics that they use. Could it be that,

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Speaker 1: instead of let's say, trying to convince politicians and the

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Speaker 1: one percent to do the right thing for the right

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Speaker 1: thing's sake, do we shift a discussion that is about

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Speaker 1: America losing right its ability to provide its standing as

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Speaker 1: one of the wealthiest nations because of the ways in

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Speaker 1: which we have purposefully caught our nose to spite our face,

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Speaker 1: meaning that if we were to actually invest in the

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Speaker 1: marginalized communities that we demonize right, then we could propel

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Speaker 1: our GDP, We could propel our offerings to the world.

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Speaker 1: Is that a conversation that we need to have instead

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Speaker 1: of you, instead of airing on the side of better

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Speaker 1: angels when we know clearly not everyone has better angels. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean yes, we should argue about better angels. But

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Speaker 1: there's no question that what you're saying is absolutely on target.

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Speaker 1: That our economy is dependent on our workforce and investing

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Speaker 1: in our human capital, and what we've been doing for

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Speaker 1: so long in this country is writing off a significant

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Speaker 1: percentage of our population. So what we need to do

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Speaker 1: is we need to invest in our people. That means

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Speaker 1: providing healthcare, childcare. It also means providing that every American

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Speaker 1: child should get a hop quality education, which is not

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Speaker 1: the case when you look at I live in Saint Louis,

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Speaker 1: and you go to any metropolitan area and you go

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Speaker 1: to a poor neighborhood and you look at the schools

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Speaker 1: and the resources available versus a rich community, there's a

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Speaker 1: world of difference. That's wrong. That's wrong morally, but that's

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Speaker 1: also wrong economically because we're not investing in all of

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Speaker 1: our people. And if you look at those countries that

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Speaker 1: are doing really well, they do invest in everyone. And

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Speaker 1: so I think that's exactly the kind of argument, along

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Speaker 1: with these other arguments we've been making, that need that

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Speaker 1: that we need to do, we need to make in

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Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, I think that you know, we we

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Speaker 1: have a tendency to want to appeal to people's moral standing.

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Speaker 1: And what we have to understand is that everyone doesn't

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Speaker 1: have the same set of morals and the same set

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Speaker 1: of values, and that if we are truly going to

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Speaker 1: make a difference, it's kind of you know, it's the

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Speaker 1: way that you run various media campaigns. It's a way

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Speaker 1: that you do target marketing, right. Different people are moved

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Speaker 1: by different energies. Yeah, and that's why you know. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier the cost of childhood poverty study that I did.

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Speaker 1: But here's another thing that came out of that study,

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Speaker 1: which is which is a very hard nosed economic argument.

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Speaker 1: For every dollar we spend in this country to reduce

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Speaker 1: childhood poverty, we would save between seven and twelve dollars

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Speaker 1: down the road in saved costs. That's a huge bang

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Speaker 1: for your buck. And so by investing in people we

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Speaker 1: are more productive economically, we will do better, we will

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Speaker 1: save a lot of money down the road, and so

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very powerful argument. Mark, I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you so much for taking the time to

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Speaker 1: join us on woke a f I think that this

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Speaker 1: is an incredibly complex issue that needs to be unpacked

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Speaker 1: and discussed more. Because I do think that we are

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Speaker 1: very distant, very arms length between this seriousness of the

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Speaker 1: poverty situation that is unfolding in America, and I think

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Speaker 1: is getting worse and was already on track to be

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Speaker 1: worse than you know, generations prior. But COVID nineteen has

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Speaker 1: really illuminated the discrepancies that we have in wealth creation,

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Speaker 1: in wealth building, and access to education, healthcare, all of

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Speaker 1: these different things. Who we consider essential, who is not right,

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Speaker 1: who is getting vaccinated right now that is on the

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Speaker 1: front lines versus those that are just well connected. I

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Speaker 1: think that it's an important conversation to have, and I'm

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Speaker 1: really glad that you came on Woke a f folks.

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Speaker 1: The book is poorly understood what America gets wrong about poverty.

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Speaker 1: Mark Rank, thank you so much for making the time

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Speaker 1: for us today. Oh you're very welcome. Dan, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: a lot, as always, dear friends, Power to the people

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Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay

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Speaker 1: woke as fuck. See after Labor Day