1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati this week. Climate fiction 2 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: writing novels isn't about winning prizes, but the existence of 3 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: a prize can elevate a deserving book. It might even 4 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: boost an entire genre, which is why it was exciting 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: to see the inaugural Climate Fiction Prize announced in twenty 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: twenty five. The winner of that award is my guest today. 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: Abi Dari is a British Nigerian novelist and it was 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: her second novel, And so I Rore, that won the 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: Climate Fiction Prize last year. It is a sequel to 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: Abbi's best selling novel The Girl with the Louding Voice. 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: But climate change, she says, is something she came to 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: by accident. 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,639 Speaker 2: If it lookouts my storytelling as an axe, right, and 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: I'm so of hitting at the archeries or the veins 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: of research around poverty and inequality and all the issues 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: that I talk about in the book. Every time my 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: axe hits the archery or the vein, climate change bled 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: and it almost became almost impossible to ignore. 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: And so I wrote follows the character of a teenage 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: girl named Aduni as she confronts superstition, lack of education, 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: and the impacts of climate change on the rural communities 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: of Nigeria. It's a gripping story told over just a 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: twenty four hour period, so it was a privilege to 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: get Abi to talk about her writing process, the role 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: climate change plays in her storytelling, and how she has 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: seen Nigeria adopt climate solutions as it develops rapidly. I 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: This is the next episode in Zero's Imagine series, where 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: we talk to authors, musicians and artists about how they 30 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: can help us understand the climate crist is better through art. 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: Previous guests have included novelists Jeorgh Saunders and Kim Stanley Robinson, 32 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winning composer Julia Wolf, and Kuwaiti artist Monira 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: al Kadiri. We've linked those episodes in the show notes. 34 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: If you have feedback, questions or comments, please email Zero 35 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: Pod at Bloomberg dot net. Welcome to Zero, Abbi. 36 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: Thank you. 37 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed and so I wrote the place where 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: the story plays out, the plot that is shaped by 39 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: superstition and climate change, and the choice of a teenager 40 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: as the central character, the one who's driving the story. 41 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: It's all very fresh, engaging, and I feel like necessary 42 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: that readers get a perspective of that kind. But for 43 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: the listeners who haven't read the book yet, can you 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: just give us a summary? 45 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: Sure? Thank you for having me. This is very exciting 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: and so I wrote. Is actually a sequel to The 47 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: Girl with a Louding Voice, which was the first novel, 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 2: but it does very well as a standalone, so even 49 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: if we haven't read the first book. It tells a 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: story of fourteen year old Adney who's smile trode and 51 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: is very excited to go to school. She's been waiting 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: for this all her life. But on the night that 53 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: she's due to the night before she's due to resume school, 54 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: she gets a visit from some elders from her village. 55 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: So she lives in a rural village in Nigeria, but 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: she's currently at the start of the book, she's in 57 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: Lagos looking forward to go to school, and she has 58 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: to go back because the village has been at the 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: time suffering a lot of drought, and Aduni is perceived 60 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: to be one of the reasons why that is happening. 61 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: And then there's a reason why I've written it that way, 62 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: and so the story is her fight for her voice 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: to be heard, but not just heard, but also for 64 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: it to echo. So she's roaring and the story, so 65 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: it's a story that talks about climate change in areas 66 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: that we probably would not hear about. But it's also 67 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: a sort of resilience, love and joyful story, I would say, 68 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 2: as well as well as heartbreaking. 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Oh certainly. I mean all sorts of emotions. I also 70 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: had deers sometimes. But the character is really like, I 71 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: fall in love with her because she's so great. What 72 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: was the choice? Why a teenager? And she has this 73 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: very peculiar way of speaking. 74 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you for that question, and I'm glad you 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: fall in love with her. I love her as well. 76 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: So she, like I mentioned, obviously, her story is a 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: continuation of the first book. So that story, this young 78 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: fourteen year old, feisty, intelligent girl called Adny, comes from 79 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: my childhood. So I grew up in Lagos, Nigeria, and 80 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: I lived in a middle class family and we had 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: a lot of housemaids. So young girls that came to 82 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: work for families like mine, girls like Ajudi who were 83 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: navigating the English language in their own way. So they 84 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: coupled together different words and kind of mix it with 85 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: their own mother tongue. And so the choice to write 86 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: her that way was to reflect, actually with as much 87 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: dignity as I could, to reflect the lives of girls 88 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: like her who are snatched away from a chance for 89 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: an education and thrown into child labor to work for 90 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: families like mine, and to be able to tell that 91 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: story without sort of imposing my own educated views into 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: the story. So that's where that came from. But I 93 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: decided to make up quite the opposite of some of 94 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: the girls that I saw, in the sense that many 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: of them were silent or silenced, and I wanted, I 96 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: do need to be vibrant, to be vivacious, to just 97 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: be to pulse with life, and to refuse to be silent. 98 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: So she's opposite of what society sort of imposes on 99 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: many of the girls. 100 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you really want a champion her throughout the book. Now, 101 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 1: the story features so many themes. That's patriarchy, there's rural issues, 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: there's education. But climate change plays a key role in 103 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: the plot. Its presence is perhaps mostly in the background, 104 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: but there's enough conversation almost throughout the novel that touches 105 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: on this thing that's happening. Talk me through how you 106 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: decided that climate change should show up in this novel. 107 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: That is such a great question, And it's interesting because 108 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't certainly didn't go into this novel 109 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 2: writing a climate novel. I think maybe a lot of 110 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: novelists would say that. For me, I really wanted to 111 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: write about the themes around poverty and a girl fighting 112 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: for her voice and needing to go back. But you know, 113 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: if it look out, my storytelling as an axe, right, 114 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: and I'm sort of hitting at the archeries or the 115 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: veins of research around poverty and inequality and all the 116 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: issues that I talk about in the book. Every time 117 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: my axe hit the artery or the vein climate change blood, 118 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: it felt like the blood that was bleeding through it 119 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: was in everything, and it almost became almost impossible to ignore. 120 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: And so I had to sit down at a point 121 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: And actually I actually had a moment in the living 122 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: room that day when I was doing my research on 123 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: on issues effects on the girl child within within Africa 124 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: and then narrowing into Nigeria, and just realizing, how have 125 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: I missed this? I know climate change, I know it's 126 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: all around me, But how have I missed how it's 127 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: affecting the day to day lives of people that do 128 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: not have a vocabulary for what is going on? And 129 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: then I decided I was going to make it that story. 130 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: It's going to make it about the climate and how 131 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: it's affecting them. But I would try very hard not 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: to mention the word climate change until somebody who understands 133 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: what's going on gets onto this sin And so that 134 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: was where that came from, and he then took on 135 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: it's own tragedary from there for my research. 136 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: What kind of reasons did you have to do to 137 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: tell this climate story? 138 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: At first I was quite scared because to me, you know, 139 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: climate climate change has always been about policy and COP 140 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: twenty five, six seven, whatever year it is, and all 141 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: these really scientific things. Right, But I'm a storyteller, and 142 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: so first I thought, okay, I might look for stories, 143 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: but I couldn't find. Most of the stories that I 144 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: saw were not sort of rooted in an African reality, 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: day to day lives. It was very much dystopian or 146 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: very much Western centered. So I realized, okay, I had 147 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: to do that. So I began to read a lot 148 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: of reports start starting, which is general reports on crisis 149 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 2: him Many Terran crisis fueled by exacerbated by climate change, 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: watching you know, YouTube videos seeing and so it's interesting 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: because I wasn't actually watching YouTube videos on climate change. 152 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: I was watching YouTube videos on just general day to 153 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: day lives of people living in communities that I imagine 154 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: this novel to be, and so I would see I 155 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: don't know, I remember watching one about an area somewhere 156 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: on the edge of northern Nigeria where this man and 157 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: I talk about this story all the time. He and 158 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: his friends they had been suffering drought and he had 159 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: to dig a well, and he kept on digging and digging, 160 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: and the deeper he went, the hard I was, and 161 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: they still couldn't find water. On after about four days, 162 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: he sort of yelled at from the bottom of the 163 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 2: well and said to the reports, he said, look, if 164 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: I dig any further, I'm going to hit the head 165 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: of Satan. So like I had to stop, and I 166 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 2: just I just saw the dispend that, yes it was 167 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: you know, I smiled at it, but there was so 168 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: much in that I thought I need to tell the story. 169 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: But then I also then had an opportunity to actually 170 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: speak to somebody, a farmer who actually is a climate 171 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 2: activist based in the area that I imagine this novel 172 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: to be, and we had a very fascinating conversation about 173 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 2: the effects of climate change on his environment and how 174 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: his crops had gone from that big potato has gone 175 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: from that big to that small because of the climatic patterns, 176 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: the changing climatic patterns, the fact that they've not been 177 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: able to adapt to the different issues that are affecting them. 178 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: And that was very helpful for me to be able 179 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: to assimilate and figure out how to tell a story 180 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: around that. 181 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: So this is an issue that, you know, just the 182 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: scale of it is so huge. You know, I grew 183 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: up in India and you know farmers, you talk to 184 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: them now, they will tell you that the world is 185 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: different from the time they first started farming, but not 186 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: most of them are able to connected to climate change. 187 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: So what is the story of this farmer who was 188 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: able to do and then become a climate activist. 189 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: I think because he had the education. So I think 190 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 2: that he was educated and I believe that he began 191 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: to do that research himself to try to connect why 192 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: when his father was a farmer, so he started with 193 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: his father. Crops were bountiful, everything was beautiful, but at 194 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: least better than it was. And then when it was 195 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: his turn, there was a huge decline in the outputs 196 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: of what was coming through, and so he began to 197 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: research and from that he found out his own ango 198 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: and actually started with climate education. And I think it's 199 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: so important that there is an education around these things 200 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: for people that don't understand what's going on, and hence 201 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: the angle of the superstition and sort of looking at 202 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: trying to tell the story from a different way. 203 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: So exactly ten years ago, in twenty sixteen, the Indian 204 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: novelist Amitav Koch gave a series of lectures title The 205 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: Great Derangement, and he made this argument pretty forcefully that 206 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: contemporary literature had been ignoring the climate crisis. It's been 207 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: a decade since and you have written a climate novel, 208 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: You've won this prize, the inaugural Climate Fiction Prize. How 209 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: would you place that diagnosis today? When you were writing 210 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: this novel, did you read other climate novels? Do you 211 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: think contemporary literature is addressing this challenge in the way 212 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: it must be? 213 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: I think that, and I think that's a very interesting 214 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: sort of opinion, and I agree to it to a 215 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: large extent. For me, when I began my research, the 216 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: climate novels that I came across, and I think maybe 217 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: because climate fiction as a genre, I think it's just 218 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: slowly becoming more defined. Like you would see a novel, 219 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: or do you go into a bookshop, for instance, you 220 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: can see women fiction, you know, literary fiction, horror and suspense. 221 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: Those are very defined and you can go in and 222 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: knowing what to look for. I don't think you can 223 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 2: do that with climate fiction as at now, but I 224 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: think that is just changing and that's why there's I mean, 225 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: I became I was the first ever winner in twenty 226 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 2: twenty five, so to show you just how new this 227 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: is as a genre. But to answer your question, I 228 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: think that there have been a lot of writers writing 229 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,119 Speaker 2: about these things, but because it has not been defined 230 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: as a genre, I think we've not really sort of 231 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: zeroed in on it and said I'm reading a climate novel. 232 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: We would say, oh, it's a dystopian, it talks about 233 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: the apocalypse, it talks about X y Z, but we've 234 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: never I think this is the first time I actually 235 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: looking into saying this is a climate novel. This is 236 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: a climate fiction, yeah story. 237 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: And in the book, you have a supporting main character, 238 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: this lady, this lady in Lego's named Mestia, who is 239 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: helping Aduni in the fights that she's facing as these 240 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: twenty four hours and the whole novel plays out over 241 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: twenty four hours, you know, stressful twenty four hours play out. 242 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: She's also somebody who works by an environmental consultancy and 243 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: as she's looking at these issues of drought and deform 244 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: a station, she just cannot help herself but connected back 245 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: to work, even as their lives of these girls and 246 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: women who she really needs to focus on. What was 247 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: it about building the character of mysteria that you had 248 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: to do to put in the work to make it work? 249 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: So I think that it was important. So I'm very 250 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: conscious that as a as a writer of African descent, 251 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: that I'm putting very nuanced narratives. And in my research, 252 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: I see that issues around climate are addressed more especially 253 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: in areas that I always say have vocabulary referment. What 254 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: I mean by that is they potentially have some funding 255 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: that potentially are able to get on the plane and 256 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: fly and can attend conferences and have have a table. 257 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: No matter how tiny the corner is in the table, 258 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: you know, on that table, have a table where world 259 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: leaders are having conversations. I think it was important to 260 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: have that view in the book because the truth is 261 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: climate change it affects everyone, but more some people are 262 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: more aware of it than the others, right, And so 263 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: Tia comes from that perspective. And as it so happened 264 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: in the first book, she actually was interested in climate 265 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: It wasn't something else thinking about. She just was. And 266 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 2: she was made fun of it by the people around her. 267 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: Educated people, by the way, because I think there's a 268 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: the general reaction to climate change is either apathy or 269 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: denial or just fun like unit's in your head. And 270 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: so Tia was one of those people who people thought 271 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: it was all in her head. They made fun of 272 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: her and saying everything about her I was about the 273 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: it was on layer and all that, and so bringing 274 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: her into this novel as somebody who knows what is 275 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: going on. But the fact that she knows what's going on, 276 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that you have the automatic silver bullet 277 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: to solve the problems in the communities. And I wanted 278 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: that to be a point because we can't fly into 279 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: communities and try to help them make solutions or provide 280 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: solutions without working with them and speaking their own language. 281 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: And this is where Tea comes in. So she comes 282 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: in all thinking she can save the world of Google 283 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: maps and a phone, and then she she's humbled in 284 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: a way by the resilience and the power of community 285 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: that she sees and that way they can work hand 286 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: in hands. So she was a way for me to say, 287 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: we can help communities that are suffering, but we have 288 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: to work with them because they have agency and the 289 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: humans and they deserve to be heard as well. 290 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: And after your first Novelly Lawrence's charity, the Louding Voice Foundation, 291 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: with supports education for girls, fights gender based violence, child labor, 292 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: can you share some of the work that you've been 293 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: able to do and whether that shaped any of your writing. 294 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: Yes, he has. I would say that shortly after The 295 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: Go with the Louding Voice was published first novel, I 296 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: had a conversation that completely blew my mind. Was with 297 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: one of my aunt's aunties who had a young girl. 298 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: My auntie is in her seventies and she had a 299 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: housemaid and her housemate had never been to school. And 300 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: so she said to me. She called me this evening. 301 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: She says, Abe, this girl in my house. She's I 302 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: don't know how old she is, but I know she's 303 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: very young right as a maid. She's never been to school. 304 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: But she picked up the girl with a louding voice. 305 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: And now she's demanding because obviously my novels talk about 306 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: agency and the power of voice. She's demanding that I 307 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: send her to school. And my auntie says, I be 308 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: the problem is if I send her to school, Assuman, 309 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 2: I can only afford to do one thing because I'm 310 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: a pensioner, she says to me. My fear is that 311 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: her parents would actually take her out of school and 312 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: put her back to work because she is the breadwinner. 313 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: So imagine an eight nine year old as a breadwinner 314 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: of a family of three, four or five. It is heartbreaking, 315 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: is devastating. It should not be the norm. And so 316 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: I decided to set up a foundation where we do 317 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: what we do for the girls, but also find a 318 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: way to incentiviy the parents as well. So we find 319 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: a way to provide as much as we can for them. 320 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: And so far we've only just started to be honest, 321 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: we're only about a year and a half old and 322 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: we've been able to put five girls through. And last 323 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: year we staged The Girl with a Louding Voice in Legos, 324 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: working with another charity, and we did that for free. 325 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: So over a thousand children who had never been to 326 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: the theater came to watch the Girl with the Louding 327 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: Voice and it was acted by children like Aduni, so 328 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: children from under Serf communities for children from the Serf communities, 329 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: and that was just a mind blowing moment and they 330 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: went away with the message of my voice matters and 331 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: I can do this. 332 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: You grew up in Nigeria, you moved to the UK, 333 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: you live here now, but you travel frequently back. What 334 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: kind of changes have you seen on the climate solutions 335 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: front in Nigeria. 336 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 2: Thinking about it, Actually, I've seen quite a few, and 337 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: some of it might not have stemmed I don't know. 338 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: I'm assuming might not have stemed directly from the climate change. 339 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: But one of the biggest things I've saying is moved 340 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: to solar power ways of generating electricity and energy. So 341 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: a lot of businesses and houses you solar and that 342 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: that's practically everywhere. But interesting, I've also noticed electric cars 343 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 2: which I'm still trying to understand how that would work, 344 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: given the fact that you know, there's still issues with 345 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: constant electricity, but the fact that there's a willingness for that, 346 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: and I know that there are agencies that have been 347 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: set up. I know that there's a commitment from the 348 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: government to achieve something positive towards the climate by twenty 349 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 2: to fifty. That said, there's sill a lot to be done. 350 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: You know, there was the terrible flooding I think I 351 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: think it was two years ago in the Ninete Delta 352 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: area that displaced about one point four million people. There 353 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: are things happening, but I want there to be. 354 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: More after the break. I ask Abi what tips she 355 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: has for budding novelists who want to get their books published, 356 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: and which writers she's particularly excited by at the moment. 357 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this episode of Zero, please take a 358 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on whichever platform 359 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: you're listening on. It helps new listeners discover the show. 360 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. There's also a choice in both the novels 361 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: where the story either ends in a city or starts 362 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: in a city, but most of the story plays out 363 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: in rural Nigeria. Most of your readers are going to 364 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: be city dwellers. Novels are read by people who are educated, 365 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: who have certain amount of time at hand to read. 366 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: Was that necessary to make somebody in the city actually 367 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: spend that much time and experience these issues in the 368 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: rural areas to have a connection to the city. 369 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've made these choices for more for this 370 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: book than any other book. I'm never to publish two novels. 371 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: But I think that there's something I say that there's 372 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: a very thin line between us and them, and until 373 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 2: we begin to see that, it takes very little to 374 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: be on the other side. Right, anything could happen to 375 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: anybody at any time, and there's so much power in 376 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: being able to suspend your own reality for one day 377 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: and to walk in the shoes of somebody else. I 378 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: think it helps. It fosters empathy, and I hope it 379 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: in senses for stories. Some of my stories that I've 380 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: written in senses people into action, right, and it causes you. 381 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: So I've had people say to me, I felt so 382 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: much rage, and I kept on thinking what can I do? 383 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: How can I help? And that's what I want. That's 384 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 2: the kind of response that I wanted for my two novels, 385 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: fansor I or So. Absolutely, I think it's very critical 386 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: to for me as an author to be able to 387 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: do that, because you need to be able to, as 388 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 2: a reader, walk in the shoes of the characters and 389 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: sort of so that you can whatever action that might 390 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 2: look like it might just be deciding to use less, 391 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 2: you know, climate damage in items, thinking about the people 392 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: that are away from you, even it's just that, then 393 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: I feel like I've done my job, and. 394 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: It's that The perspective from rich countries is that, oh, 395 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: poor countries are going to suffer, that needs to be bridged. 396 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: But there's also within poor countries, within India or Nigeria, 397 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: there's plenty of inequality. There are very many rich people 398 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: who have really huge amount of consumption, huge amount of 399 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: carbon emissions. But if you take the overall picture, you know, 400 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: Africa contributed the least to the climate problem. What did 401 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: you have to think about as you were writing this 402 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: novel that you brought that issue to the fore and 403 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: landed it for the reader. 404 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: I think I was driving a little a lot actually 405 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: by rage by the fact that, like you said that, 406 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: especially rural communities like I go to Legos all the time. 407 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: When I was in Legos, I think it was May 408 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: last year, I wanted to take a walk, a ten 409 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: minute walk around I think it was around ten o'clock 410 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: in the morning to the hair salon to get my 411 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: head on. And I looked at Google Maps and I said, 412 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: it's just a ten minute walk. I could not walk 413 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: for more than a minute. The sun was intense. That 414 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 2: was the first time for me, like beyond scene on 415 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 2: TV and feeling a bit of oh my gosh, and 416 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: then switching it off to watch something else. That was 417 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: the first time I you know, when you feel like 418 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: sun is biting you, right, That's the way I felt. 419 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: And that was the first time I understood just a 420 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: little bit a fraction of what some of these people 421 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 2: go through. And so for me, it was a very 422 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: conscious decision, driven by rage to tell the story as 423 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: much as I could, and for me as a writer, 424 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 2: it involved using a lot of sensory stuff. But also 425 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: if you said that the novel was over twenty four hours, 426 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 2: but that was very intentional. It was the feeling of 427 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: urgency to say, we need to do something now. I 428 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: also sort of use a technique there which I may 429 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 2: have to explain to people if you even have noticed. 430 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: But as a character in the story who suffers the most, 431 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 2: if I can and say that, but she's not part 432 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: of them. So she comes from the West, so to speak. 433 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: She's Western educated and all of that. And I'm not 434 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: against that because I am that. But again, that feeling 435 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: of it's ososen's them, I think we need to clear 436 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 2: that away and begins to realize that we're won right. 437 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 2: We have one earth, one planet that we all need 438 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: to fight for, and so using different characters in different techniques, 439 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: So it was one of my ways of trying to 440 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: do that. 441 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: You put superstition as another plot device in there, and 442 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: climate change in superstition Mishmash in the real world disinformation 443 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: and misinformation with climate change Mishmash. I thought the way 444 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: it played out was very interesting as a storytelling plot. 445 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: But what you were thinking of it. Was it driven 446 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: by the choices of how rural people make decisions or 447 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: did you have a larger thoughted mind. 448 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: So I think it's a bit of both. I did 449 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: have this thought. I know that generally women are suffer 450 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: a lot more for generally across the world, for so 451 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: many different issues, but especially within rural communities where women 452 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: as seen as lesser, as not having a voice, and 453 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, suffering for a lot of the 454 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: of the things that are happening there. And so I 455 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: thought it would be interesting to look at that point 456 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: of view. But I could not believe my ears when 457 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: I had a conversation with this very educated farmer who 458 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: calls himself a feminist, which I found quite quite fascinating, 459 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: and has this engio called the Just Screen Center. He 460 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: does amazing things around climate education. And he said, Abbi, 461 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: I find it quite sad that since the issues around 462 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: drought and flooding, so there's two extremes, go from one 463 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 2: extreme to the other, has been happening in his area. 464 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: He says, a lot of the blame is on the women, 465 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: A lot of suffering is on the women. And I said, 466 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, I thought that last night. So this 467 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: was the day before. I said, I was. I was 468 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: scared of exploring the superstition angle. And he said, well, 469 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: and this is a conclusion. We came two together. We 470 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: have this view that nature is feminine mother nature, and 471 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 2: so when there's a problem, the mother should fix it, 472 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 2: the woman should fix it. The woman therefore sufferers for it. 473 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: And so that's why I try to bring into the 474 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: story where the women are seen as they are the 475 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: ones that have caused these issues, and so they need 476 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 2: to atone for it, they need to fix it. But 477 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: it's also, if you flip it on the other side, 478 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 2: it's also the fact that women do get do sacrifice 479 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: a lot for these things. So I remember during COVID nineteen, 480 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: I had one of our privileges sitting in a forum 481 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 2: with International Rescue Committee and some MP's in the UK, 482 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 2: and we had this wonderful woman from Africa and I 483 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: can't remember what country she was in. She's talking about 484 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: the impact of COVID nineteen on women and girls, and 485 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: I could not believe just how many girls have never 486 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: gone back to school since COVID nineteen happened. How many 487 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 2: girls because their local school has been affected by flooding 488 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: are now sold off into marriage. How many girls because 489 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: their father's farm no longer use the crops issued so 490 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: they can provide, are then sold into marriage. So the 491 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 2: girls then become the commodity, They become the crop. Essentially, 492 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: it was important for me to bring that into the 493 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 2: story so that we can see that climate change is 494 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: beyond just policies and facts and figures, their real lives, 495 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 2: girls especially that are suffering tremendously as a result in 496 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: discriminating as a result of these things. 497 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: As a journalist, I'm writing these stories that are based 498 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: in the real world about facts, and there is no 499 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: way to talk about climate impacts without the suffering that 500 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: comes from it too. But a novel has to do 501 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: something that is entertaining, that keeps a reader hooked. You know, 502 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: when you're addressing these challenges of climate change, of violence, 503 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: of patriarchy, how do you ensure that you can also 504 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: keep the reader interested in knowing more and not feeling 505 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: like this is a polemic, this is a lecture. I 506 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: don't want to listen to. 507 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: Ah, that is such a great question. I think that's 508 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: something I teach writers. So the first thing is, of course, 509 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 2: I say that your job as a writer is to 510 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 2: have the reader. You take the reader by hand, and 511 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: you kindly imagine kindly that they cannot see, cannot smell, 512 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 2: cannot hear, cannot taste, cannot feel, but they're highly serroble 513 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 2: and very intelligent, and your job is to hold them 514 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: by the hand and introduce them into this world that 515 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: you've created, so you have to bring everything to life 516 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: for them, and then use humor. Humor is a very 517 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: powerful way without trivializing the issue. You can use humor 518 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: in you know, people say answer is funny in different ways, 519 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: So trying to find ways to make people smile but 520 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: also hit the heart, humanizing it so the emotions that 521 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: we feel are real. You did say you were quite tary. 522 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: I've heard that as well a lot. So find a 523 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: way to humanize your story in a way that it 524 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: breaks the heart of the people just a little, the 525 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: hardest of hearts just a little, so that they can 526 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: feel something for your story. And I think if you 527 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: can bring those three in, you can. And then pacing also, 528 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: I mean if you find a way to Not a 529 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 2: lot of us write fast pace, but I did that 530 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: with I mean, I was obsessed with watching twenty forty 531 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: show many years ago, and I thought one day and 532 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: I was watching that, I think I was a bit 533 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: deluded and high I'm pregnancy or once because I was 534 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: pregnant at the time, my first daughter. But I was 535 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: watching twenty one I said to myself, I'm gonna tell 536 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: a story set in Africa based on that twenty four 537 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: format and fifteen or so years later, here's the ansiro. 538 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: But then figure out how to keep people turning the pages. 539 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: It might be the variation of your sentences, So have 540 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: a cad to it. If you have sentences that are 541 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: constantly short, people the brain registers that and it sort 542 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: of tippers off. So have like a dance and a 543 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: music to how your sentences flow on the pages, and 544 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: you will hold the reader's hand a little longer that 545 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: you thought you could. 546 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: Are there climate fiction books that you've read, read sins 547 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: or writers that you have followed since that you're particularly 548 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: excited about. 549 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: I would say that because there's a Climate Fiction Prize, 550 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: and actually the long list just came out yesterday, sponsored 551 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: generously by Climate Spring, which is an amazing organization. They 552 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: have such an amazing sort of list of books. And 553 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: one of the interesting ones that I read was What's 554 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: a Baby, which is setting Nigia, which was on the 555 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: long list Orbital that won the Booker Prize thankfully. For 556 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: the Climate Fiction Prize, there's like you know exactly where 557 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: to go now and to get stories around that. 558 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: So I mean, maybe this is touching on something you've 559 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: said already, but maybe there's more to be said on this, 560 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: which is what would be your advice to budding creative 561 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: writers who want to include climate change in their stories. 562 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: You can't go in one intellecture. It always has to 563 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: be about story, especially now, because there is a general 564 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: Like I said, there's dissociation, there's apathy, there's denial, and 565 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: if you go and bashing them on the head with that, 566 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: you will lose readers very quickly and you will tire 567 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: yourself out. So I think, figure out who are the characters. 568 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 2: Almost see climate change all the climate crisis that you 569 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: want to write about as a character. So give it feeling, 570 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: an emotion, and a voice as much as you can 571 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 2: see how you can weave it into the back drop 572 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: of your story. But at the same time you put 573 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: another forefront. And it's really hard to do that, and 574 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: it takes reading other works if you can. But things 575 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: around characterization. Know who your character is, what they want, 576 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: why they want it, what is stopping them from getting 577 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: in three questions. You absolutely have to ask your character 578 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: all the time and weave that into the story, and 579 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: you sort of use climate change as sort of what 580 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: carries them through that journey. I think if you're able 581 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: to do that first of all, create a character that 582 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: people can feel for and root for and want something 583 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 2: to happen for. You're sort of halfway there. And then 584 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: the other thing is actually just get through it. Get 585 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: through the first draft. Right. There's a saying that I 586 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: say all the time. I say that I've never ever 587 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: seen a half finished novel in a book shop or 588 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: winning any prize. So you do need to finish your book. Now. 589 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 2: When you finish your book, then go back editing is 590 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: really where writing starts. To be honest, the first draft 591 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: is really your inspiration taking over. The second draft, where 592 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: you go back and start rewriting, that's when the writing 593 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: really comes to life. And so that's where you then 594 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: begin to check and question all the things I said 595 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: about the senses? Am I doing it not to engage? That? 596 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: Is the climate itself a character? And what does the 597 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: climate want out of this story? Why does it want it? 598 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 2: And what is stopping it from getting it? 599 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: And apply that You've also talked about this struggles to 600 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: get published in the first place. Now you have to 601 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, best selling novels out there. But the book industry, 602 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: like the journalism industry, is going through a pretty struggling phase. 603 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: You know, fewer and fewer people are reading books. Now, 604 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: how did you navigate the challenge of getting published. 605 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: I think I had to get to a point where 606 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: I just stop wanting to get published, and I know 607 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: that's a bit insane. So I went from I will 608 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: get published, I've got to get published to you know what, 609 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: I'm just going to write a novel for the sake 610 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: of it, and even if it's just me that reads it, 611 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: that's fine. And that let me pour my heart into 612 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: writing my first novel, The Gol with a Louding Voice, 613 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: and I did, and I did not go through the 614 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: conventional roots. So to get published in fiction, you have 615 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: to get an Asian, write a query letter, and get 616 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: an asient. I did get an agent, but I didn't 617 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 2: the query letters I wrote were rejected quite heavily, which 618 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: is standard and normal, but it's hard and painful. But 619 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: I did win a writing competition, so I went into 620 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: for the Batht Novel Award. So I'll say to young 621 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: writers out there that you know, getting agents, so many 622 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: people are writing, write, especially with AI coming up, and 623 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: everybody has a story to tell, and so agents could 624 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: be non dated by that. To look at writing competitions 625 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: as well, because they go straight to the story, and 626 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: so I want the Bath Novel Award at the time, 627 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 2: and that sort of just kicks out with my whole journey. 628 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: Is it harder to get a climate novel published? 629 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: That is interesting? Because I don't know, and I think 630 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: it is. It was a blessing not to have gone 631 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: into this novel thinking this is a climate novel. I 632 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: went and thinking I want I have something to say. 633 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: So I would say that if you have something to 634 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: say about the climate, say it, say with all your 635 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: heart and your soul and everything you have, and it 636 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: will get published if you've said it well. And I 637 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: think that's what that's what should matter, right. I always 638 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: say that, Yes, there are genres, and it helps you 639 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: to peak what's on the bookshelves. But please, as a writer, 640 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: do not put yourself into the genre box. Write the 641 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: heart out of what you want to write, and that 642 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: heart would bleed into somebody else's soul when they're reading it, 643 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: and that's what they'll connect with. 644 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Abby, thank you, it's wonderful, and thank you 645 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: for listening to zero. Now for the sound of the week, 646 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: that's the sound of the Oja flute, a traditional instrument 647 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: of the Igbo people who have inhabited the Niger Delta 648 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: for more than five thousand years. Majority of the people 649 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: belonging to the Igbo ethnic group now live in Nigeria. 650 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to 651 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify. 652 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar boyd Our. Theme music 653 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: is composed by Wondering Special thanks to Samersadi, Laura Milan 654 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: and Sharon chen i'm Akshatrati Back soon.