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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week Carbon costs Canada.

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Speaker 1: Last month, nearly fifty heads of state met in Paris

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Speaker 1: to talk about how to bring global finance in line

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Speaker 1: with climate goals. It's a huge undertaking and the to

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Speaker 1: do list is long. A lot of what needs to

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Speaker 1: be done on that list could be made easier if

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Speaker 1: governments had more money, and right now, after the pandemic

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Speaker 1: and the economic consequences that have followed, there is not

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Speaker 1: a lot of it. One way to fill government coffers

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Speaker 1: is through taxes. Taxes are not popular, but they are

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Speaker 1: crucial and perhaps the most interesting thing at the meeting

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Speaker 1: was that instead of dividing rich and poor countries, there

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Speaker 1: was somewhat of a unity on taxes. French President Emmanuel Macron,

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Speaker 1: the host of the meeting, brought up international taxes on

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Speaker 1: shipping and even financial transactions multiple times throughout the two

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Speaker 1: day event, and at the final press conference, Kennyan President

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Speaker 1: William Ruto said.

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Speaker 2: The discussion about carbon tax is a discussion that is

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Speaker 2: a must have and on this one, we do not

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Speaker 2: want the North to pay for the South. We want

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Speaker 2: all of us to pay.

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Speaker 1: From an economic standpoint, taxes on emissions are an optimal

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Speaker 1: way of speeding up the transition to clean energy, but

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Speaker 1: the politics of those taxes aren't a winning cars in

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Speaker 1: any country, let alone Globally. Among G seven members, only

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Speaker 1: three have some form of tax on carbon the UK,

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Speaker 1: the EU and Canada. And Canada is the case study

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Speaker 1: that I'm going to explore today. It's worth learning a

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Speaker 1: country's experience to understand whether carbon taxes could ever work international.

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Speaker 1: Last year I interviewed Canada's Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and

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Speaker 1: he's very proud of introducing the tax.

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Speaker 3: No matter how many times I go around saying, look,

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Speaker 3: you can do it. I want two reelections on putting

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Speaker 3: a broad based price on pollution. People still think that

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Speaker 3: it's a real challenge.

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Speaker 1: You might notice he does not call it a carbon tax,

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Speaker 1: but a price on pollution. This is no accident.

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Speaker 4: If you start off looking at the police, terrible, If

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Speaker 4: you like, say, do you want a carbon tax? Darable? Terrible? Terrible?

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Speaker 4: What about carbon pricing a little bit better? What about

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Speaker 4: putting a price on pollution better? No longer free to pollute? Best?

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Speaker 1: This is my guest today, Catherine McKenna, former Minister of

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Speaker 1: Environment and climate change in Trudeau's cabinet. She was tossed

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Speaker 1: by Trudeau with selling the idea and whether you call

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Speaker 1: it a carbon tax, a carbon price, an emissions trading system,

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Speaker 1: or a price on pollution, all of it is meant

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Speaker 1: to economically disincentivize emitting greenhouse gases. Countries that introduce these

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Speaker 1: policies inevitably see their emissions decline. But the politics are delicate.

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Speaker 1: Conservative politicians are still fighting Trudeau's price and pollution.

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Speaker 3: Tends to be conservative politicians that are most resistant to

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Speaker 3: this straightforward mechanism, looking instead at bringing in heavy regulations

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Speaker 3: or trying to do other ways around it, when a

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Speaker 3: price on pollution is the cleanest way to do it.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to learn from Kat about how Trudeau has

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Speaker 1: managed to counter opposition to climate action and how she

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Speaker 1: figured out getting people on board for a price on pollution.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Kath is now the chair of a

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Speaker 1: UN group that is setting standards about what exactly the

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Speaker 1: term that zero means for corporations. She's the best expert

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Speaker 1: I know about how to use language in selling complex policies.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, you became a member of Prime Minister

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Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau's cabinet and you were the first minister to

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Speaker 1: have climate in their portfolio. Could you briefly tell the

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Speaker 1: story of how you got to that point.

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Speaker 4: So I should serve from the beginning. I got elected,

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Speaker 4: so I was I'd worked really hard over a couple

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Speaker 4: of years to get elected, so I hadn't really thought

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Speaker 4: about you're asked by the Prime minister. You have to

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Speaker 4: be elected as part of the team, and then you're

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Speaker 4: asked to serve in cabinet. I almost fell off my

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Speaker 4: seat when I was asked to be Minister of Environment

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Speaker 4: in climate change, because I knew folks that worked on

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Speaker 4: climate change, and those were like the climate folks. I'd

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Speaker 4: done human rights, I'd also done corporate law, so I thought, oh,

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Speaker 4: my gosh, you know, I really don't know anything on climate.

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Speaker 4: And I think I realized that really quick because a

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Speaker 4: few days later, I was off to Paris for the

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Speaker 4: negotiations around the Paris Agreement at COP twenty one, and

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Speaker 4: I'm reading my briefing books and I'm like, what in

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Speaker 4: God's name is anyone talking about? First of all, so

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Speaker 4: many acronyms like COP. I was like I had to ask.

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Speaker 4: I said, Okay, let's just start at the beginning. There

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Speaker 4: are no dumb questions. What's a cop They were like

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Speaker 4: confidence of the parties, and I was like, okay, could

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Speaker 4: we stop with all the acronyms. But I mean, my

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Speaker 4: job was pretty clear from the Prime Minister that one

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Speaker 4: we had to go to Paris and fight for an

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Speaker 4: ambitious global agreement, which was great. The question was would

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Speaker 4: it be ambitious enough. So in fact getting for the

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Speaker 4: first time ever, world's coming together degree that everyone needed

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Speaker 4: to do their part on climate change, and that there

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Speaker 4: was a clear target staying well below two degrees driving

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Speaker 4: for one point five That was all really important. But

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Speaker 4: then I had to come home and we had to

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Speaker 4: get a climate plan for Canada. And that's hard because

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Speaker 4: I think everyone knows we produce a lot of oil

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Speaker 4: and gas in Canada. What they may not know is

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Speaker 4: Canada's eighty percent clean electricity. So that's a very good story.

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Speaker 4: We have a lot of hydro, and we have significant

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Speaker 4: nuclear in Ontario, and then we have some wind and solar.

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Speaker 4: But the real thing in the climate plan was going

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Speaker 4: to be to get a price on pollution.

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Speaker 1: And that brings us to one of the things you

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Speaker 1: were most famous for which is starting Canada's carbon pricing

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Speaker 1: scheme officially known as the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the simplest possible terms, how does Canada's carbon pricing

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Speaker 1: system work?

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Speaker 4: Oh, in the simplest possible terms, Well, first of all,

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Speaker 4: I learned one you don't call something a carbon tax.

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Speaker 4: That's extremely unpopular. But by the way, the Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: found it wasn't a tax because we give all the

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Speaker 4: money back to people. So essentially, what our system is

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Speaker 4: that there's a price on pollution across the country. Now,

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Speaker 4: certain province has already had a price on pollution, some

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Speaker 4: had it and then got rid of it. But we

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Speaker 4: needed to have from a competitiveness perspective and a uniformity perspective,

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Speaker 4: but also a performance perspective, we needed to have a

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Speaker 4: price across the country. So essentially, we just said there's

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Speaker 4: going to be a price. It's going to be starting

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Speaker 4: at ten dollars. It's going to go up at that

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Speaker 4: time to fifty dollars. It's now it will go up

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Speaker 4: to hundred and seventy dollars by twenty thirty, and that's

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Speaker 4: across the board. Now, there are always nuances. So you

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Speaker 4: said you wanted. It's simple, but I think it is

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Speaker 4: important beyond the fact that all the money goes back

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Speaker 4: to people. We also have what's called an output based

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Speaker 4: pricing system, so that's a very un sexy name, but

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Speaker 4: competitiveness is an issue. So for heavy emitters, we figured

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Speaker 4: out a system to look at competitiveness, but to of

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Speaker 4: course put a price on pollution. So I mean, essentially,

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Speaker 4: at its basics, there's a price on pollution. It started

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Speaker 4: a ten bucks a it's across the board, and the

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Speaker 4: money goes back to people in a transparent way through

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Speaker 4: the tax system.

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Speaker 1: And the history of when you came to this point

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Speaker 1: was that there were a few provinces within Canada that

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Speaker 1: already had some form of a system, and so you

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Speaker 1: had to design something that would work at a federal level,

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Speaker 1: but also take into consideration all these different systems that

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Speaker 1: existed in different provinces. So what was the solution that

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Speaker 1: you came up with to make it all work?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, so we could have just done something easy.

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Speaker 4: We could have just said we're just doing a direct price,

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Speaker 4: but we said we're actually just focused on outcomes, which

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Speaker 4: I think in climate policy you should always just do

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Speaker 4: that focus on outcomes. We needed to reduce a mission

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Speaker 4: with a price, but we allowed provinces to decide how

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Speaker 4: they were going to do the price. But if they

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Speaker 4: didn't want to do the price, then the federal government

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Speaker 4: was coming in and that's where the problem started.

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Speaker 1: So how hard was it to get this act introduced

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Speaker 1: and then passed in Canada?

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Speaker 4: It was super hard. Hard things are hard. I mean, look,

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Speaker 4: we started with a discussion and we were coming up,

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Speaker 4: by the way, with a comprehensive climate plan, so I

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Speaker 4: knew this was going to be the hardest element, and

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Speaker 4: it was clear that there were some provinces that were

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Speaker 4: never going to agree. So in quite a dramatic moment,

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Speaker 4: I said to the Prime Minister, so I can't land this.

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Speaker 4: I need you to just go out and say we're

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Speaker 4: doing it. So we time did. There was a what

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Speaker 4: we call these federal provincial meetings, which generally are the

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Speaker 4: provinces ganging up on the federal government. So we're at

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Speaker 4: this meeting. I think we're in Halifax. We're having this

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Speaker 4: discussion once again about pricing, and then of course there

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Speaker 4: were people saying, well, we can't do it all these reasons.

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Speaker 4: I said, okay, you may want to just have your

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Speaker 4: officials follow what's going on in the House of Comments,

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Speaker 4: because I said, the Prime ministers announcing that he's putting

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Speaker 4: a price pollution across the country.

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Speaker 3: Provinces and territories will have a choice in how they

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Speaker 3: implement this pricing. They can put a direct price on

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Speaker 3: carbon pollution or they can adopt a cap and trade system.

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Speaker 4: So that was very dramatic. Bunch of ministers just pushed

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Speaker 4: their chairs out of the table and then immediately ran

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Speaker 4: to the microphones to say how terrible we were. But

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Speaker 4: we had set it up because the major provinces Ontario, BC,

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Speaker 4: Alberta and Quebec, which represent a huge amount of the population,

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Speaker 4: had already agreed. A number of provinces did not support it.

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Speaker 4: They were led by conservative politicians. In fact, they created

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Speaker 4: the resistance. One of our national magazines had a picture

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Speaker 4: of the resistance. It was six guys, the leader of

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Speaker 4: the opposition, a conservative, and then five provincial politicians. As

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Speaker 4: like the resistance to climate change. But I'm not bananas, right,

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Speaker 4: So we had thought about this and determined, like, first

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Speaker 4: of all, we're federations, so I actually believe that provinces

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Speaker 4: should design the system that makes sense for them. Every

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Speaker 4: economy is different. We're a very big country, and you

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Speaker 4: know we have provinces that have a lot of oil

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Speaker 4: and gas. We have provinces that have none. But I

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Speaker 4: did learn, and I think this is a good lesson

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Speaker 4: for folks that are trying to figure out climate policy.

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Speaker 4: And it's hard, but policy matters. You have to think

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Speaker 4: about people. In fact, like I had to fight quite

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Speaker 4: hard internally to get it so all the money went

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Speaker 4: back in a transparent way, I said to the Prime

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Speaker 4: Minister eventually, because there was just a lot of discussion,

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Speaker 4: and you can imagine finance, everyone has ideas. They had ideas,

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Speaker 4: and I said, no, I have to have a clear message.

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Speaker 4: I have to say how much everyone's getting back. And

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Speaker 4: then there was even a discussion on well should lower

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Speaker 4: income people get more back? And I said, it's progressive

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Speaker 4: by definition because they emit less, so they're going to

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Speaker 4: pay less. And that's what the economists showed. So these

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Speaker 4: are all very norty things, but policy matters, both in

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Speaker 4: terms of the very nuts and bolts of the policy,

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Speaker 4: but also how you can sell it.

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Speaker 1: Let me capture that moment that you brought up. Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Trudeau could pull off that dramatic moment because he

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Speaker 1: had a majority in the House of Commons and he

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Speaker 1: could get the Aact through just because of that majority.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that right?

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Speaker 4: I mean yes in a sense, although the majority of

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Speaker 4: Canadians supported parties, so not just us that had a

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Speaker 4: price on pollution, But yes, I mean I think that

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Speaker 4: you know, if you're going to have a majority, like

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Speaker 4: do things with it. I mean, I think it was

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Speaker 4: seen as so important because we could not meet our

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Speaker 4: target without it, so it was a critical element of

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Speaker 4: our climate plan. I like to think that everything isn't

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Speaker 4: in life just about politics and saying well do we

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Speaker 4: think we can land things like? Because I needed to

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Speaker 4: sell this right and to regular people, and so I

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Speaker 4: went and I was like, Okay, who can I talk

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Speaker 4: to you? So first of all I talked to George Schultz,

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Speaker 4: so unfortunately he's.

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Speaker 1: Passed away, and he's the Republican advisor.

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Speaker 4: To Rey Agan and also Bush Senior, and he had

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Speaker 4: been a real proponent of putting a price on pollution.

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Speaker 4: But he said to me, I remember looking at me,

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Speaker 4: I like, give the money back, give it back. Because

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Speaker 4: he's a Republican, right, he just believes in that so

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Speaker 4: that was one person that was helpful. But the other

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Speaker 4: person was really helpful was Arnold Schwarzenegger.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy that Canada is putting a price on pollution.

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Speaker 4: I was trying to get anyone who I thought could

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Speaker 4: get some attention that didn't look like an environmentalist, because

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Speaker 4: my problem wasn't with people who believed in environmentalists, as

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Speaker 4: my problem was people didn't believe in environmentalist didn't want

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Speaker 4: them telling them what they needed to do. So I

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Speaker 4: got Ernie Arnold Schwartzenegger, who put a price on pollution

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Speaker 4: in California, brought in the cap and trade system and

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Speaker 4: it was bipartisan and we have done this year in

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Speaker 4: California in a bipartisan way of it. As a Republican

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Speaker 4: governor and with the Democratic legislators, we brooked together and

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Speaker 4: got it done. But it was very serious. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: a jokey video. But I was trying to reach folks

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Speaker 4: who liked the terminator and I think I use it

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Speaker 4: as quite cheesy, but I was like, we need to

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Speaker 4: terminate climate change.

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Speaker 1: So you make this point, which is giving the money

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Speaker 1: back was crucial. How did you make it work because

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Speaker 1: all these provinces are doing different things and putting prices

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Speaker 1: in a different way. Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean the money back's crucial because it's your message. Right.

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Speaker 4: You can say we're making it no longer free to pollute,

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Speaker 4: but most families are getting more money back. It's a

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Speaker 4: very simple message right now. We also made sure that

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Speaker 4: people knew how much they were getting back because we

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Speaker 4: were in a fight. So the conservative politicians and the

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Speaker 4: provinces that didn't have a price on pollution would put

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Speaker 4: up the price that people were going to pay and

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Speaker 4: forget how much they were getting back because there was

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Speaker 4: a delta, and you would make it, you would get

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Speaker 4: more money back. So it was very important to do that,

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Speaker 4: but it was extremely ideological. I think that there was

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Speaker 4: a view that they could win an election. The conservative

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Speaker 4: politicians could win an election, and while we have multi

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Speaker 4: parties in Canada, it's basically a liberal conservative fight. So

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Speaker 4: the Conservatives were really all in, really focusing on this message.

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Speaker 4: And it's hard because you know you are fighting an

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Speaker 4: uphill battle on messaging. I really became obsessed with comms.

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Speaker 4: And it's funny because I'm a lawyer, so I was

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Speaker 4: terrible on comms. But I realized that environmentalists were worse.

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Speaker 4: So that was my advantage because I say, I don't

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Speaker 4: know what anyone's talking about here, and neither do people

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Speaker 4: in Hamilton. I'm from a steel town, kind of like Detroit,

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Speaker 4: and being able to say something very simple, and I realized,

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Speaker 4: like I could go into a class of grade four

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Speaker 4: students and say do you think it should be free

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Speaker 4: to pollute? And they'll all tell it back no. And

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Speaker 4: so that was the message and Canadians they understood that.

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Speaker 1: But then you still had to counter the opposition from

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Speaker 1: conservative leaders to the act. And that's where the revenue

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Speaker 1: neutral pop came in, right focus through the numbers, you

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Speaker 1: know what exactly happens when this revenue is collected, and

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Speaker 1: you know how did that help you fight these politicians.

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Speaker 4: The thing that was a little bit tricky is it

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Speaker 4: depended what province you were in, because you're putting a

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Speaker 4: price on pollution that includes heavy emitters and businesses, so

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Speaker 4: it'll be a different emissions profile depending on the province.

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Speaker 4: So in a way, in Alberta and Saskatchewan, two provinces

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Speaker 4: where the premiers refuse put a price on pollution, the

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Speaker 4: amount that you would pay was going to be significantly

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Speaker 4: higher than you might pay in another province, but the

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Speaker 4: amount you would get back would also be significantly higher.

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Speaker 4: So if you take it to what I did, you know,

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Speaker 4: I would have a card and we actually I think

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Speaker 4: we mailed it out to them, and I said, like,

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Speaker 4: this isn't advertising, this is just letting people know what

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Speaker 4: the policy is. So it would say, you know, we're

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Speaker 4: putting a price on pollution, and the average family will

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Speaker 4: get three hundred and forty three dollars back. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: For some reason that sticks in my head for Ontario

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Speaker 4: and buy average family. It just depended on your family,

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Speaker 4: if you have three kids or two kids, how old

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Speaker 4: they were. By average family, we got three hundred and

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Speaker 4: forty three dollars back, which is more than they will pay.

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Speaker 4: But the most help we got was from an unusual source.

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Speaker 4: So I suddenly noticed these signs from H and R Block.

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Speaker 4: H and R Block is like they're just you know,

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Speaker 4: one of these accounting groups that'll do your taxes. So

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Speaker 4: a lot of people they just got to HNR Block

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Speaker 4: and you know, drop all their tax documents. So they're

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Speaker 4: big signs. They were like get your taxes done, to

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Speaker 4: get your climate action incentive, and so I was like,

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Speaker 4: this is amazing because it's actually a third party that's

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Speaker 4: just being practical.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're wondering how exactly you would get money back

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Speaker 1: from the government if you lived in Canada. The exact

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Speaker 1: calculation will depend on where you live, because, as Kat explained,

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Speaker 1: there isn't one corbon pricing system across the country. However,

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Speaker 1: in most provinces, the federal government applies some form of

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Speaker 1: carbon pricing, which means goods or fuel that are carbon

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Speaker 1: intensive are a little bit more expensive based on the

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Speaker 1: emissions that are attached to them. The government calculates roughly

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Speaker 1: how much extra you, the consumer, are paying for those

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Speaker 1: and then sends that money back to you. We check

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Speaker 1: the numbers for twenty twenty two, and an individual in

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Speaker 1: Ontario would get four hundred and eighty eight dollars. In

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Speaker 1: the jargon of policymakers, this is revenue neutral. The government

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Speaker 1: sends back almost all of the money it collects. It

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Speaker 1: does keep a small amount for very clear purposes.

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Speaker 4: Ninety percent of the money went back to people in

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Speaker 4: the provinces. It did not go to the provinces. That

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Speaker 4: was a very important distinction. This other ten percent was

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Speaker 4: for small, medium sized businesses, indigenous people's public institutions. So

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Speaker 4: it wasn't all the money going back to people. It was,

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Speaker 4: but it was done in a thoughtful way, thinking about

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Speaker 4: who's going to be impacted. And then you get into nuances, right,

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Speaker 4: you bring in policy and you have to iterate. So

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Speaker 4: I mean at the beginning it was already complicated enough.

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Speaker 4: I said, we're probably going to screw up in some areas,

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter, just do it. We will adjust and I

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Speaker 4: have to hand it to the public servants because it

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Speaker 4: was extremely complicated from an administrative perspective. Now, I was

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Speaker 4: kind of hoping like someone showed up your door with

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Speaker 4: a really big check, but obviously that doesn't happen. It's

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Speaker 4: automatic deposit for most people, so that's harder because you

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Speaker 4: want people to see it.

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Speaker 1: And you are not a minister now, but you tweeted

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Speaker 1: your most recent climate action incentive payment.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: I was excited. I just I got home. I was

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Speaker 4: traveling in Europe and I was like, wait, what's this

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Speaker 4: from the government and it's like, hey, guess what, you

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Speaker 4: got a deposit? And I was like, oh, my climate

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Speaker 4: action incentive good policy. So I was really excited to

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Speaker 4: open up the envelope. It said that my annual entitlement

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Speaker 4: was seven hundred and forty five dollars and we're getting

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Speaker 4: this in two installments, so I got three hundred and

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Speaker 4: seventy two dollars and fifty cents.

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Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Kat about the pushback and

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Speaker 1: got her advice for anyone wanting to implement a corbon tax.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you want to hear my interview

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Speaker 1: with Justin Trudeau from October, and you should because it's

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Speaker 1: one of the most popular episodes, you can find a

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Speaker 1: link in the show notes. And if you're enjoying this conversation,

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Speaker 1: consider leaving a review. It really makes a difference. A

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Speaker 1: recent one from Artichoke eighty two said, every time I

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Speaker 1: started to give the guests the side I the host

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Speaker 1: would ask the right question, give the right context, and

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Speaker 1: leave it up to the listener to pay attention. Thanks

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Speaker 1: Artichoke eighty two. If you do leave a review, we

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Speaker 1: might read it on a future episode of the show. Now,

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Speaker 1: what are the main reasons that people continue to oppose

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Speaker 1: it even today?

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Speaker 4: Their ideologues? I mean, okay, I will that's a flip

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Speaker 4: at answer. It deserves a more serious answer. There are

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Speaker 4: conservative politicians who think this is a winning issue. I

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Speaker 4: don't know why in Canada they still think it's a

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Speaker 4: winning issue because we've now fought two elections on it.

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Speaker 4: And it goes back to every policy that any policy

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Speaker 4: you design in climate you need to think about regular people.

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Speaker 4: And as I say, I think it's very helpful that

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Speaker 4: I came from Hamilton, a steel town, and people care

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Speaker 4: about like they generally, I think they care about climate

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Speaker 4: change and they believe in climate change. But I think

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Speaker 4: that some people may not understand how the system works.

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Speaker 4: So when you have politicians who actually mislead or lie,

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Speaker 4: we sometimes call it like disinformation. I'm like, yeah, sometimes

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Speaker 4: it's actually just lies. You know, it can be very

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Speaker 4: confusing for your average person. And so you will see

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Speaker 4: a difference in the perspective on pricing by provinces in particular,

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Speaker 4: like in Alberta, Saskatchewan, where you've had humongous opposition from

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Speaker 4: the highest levels and so you know, just saying things

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Speaker 4: that are patently untrue. Now I had to be very

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Speaker 4: loud on this, like I had every question in the

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Speaker 4: question period in our House of Commons from the opposition

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Speaker 4: some days on pricing and so it was a real

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Speaker 4: fight and it really wasn't that pretty. But the good

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Speaker 4: news is you have a lot of allies on pricing pollution.

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Speaker 4: So to anyone who's thinking about this beyond, I think,

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Speaker 4: give the money back so you have a good message.

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Speaker 4: I think, like, go get people outside the box. I

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Speaker 4: had religious leaders and religious groups supporting it. We had

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Speaker 4: health professionals, we had young people who were very vocal

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Speaker 4: about their future. We had economists, we had environmentalists, we

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Speaker 4: had indigenous leaders. So I think you also need to

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Speaker 4: get as many people as you can, like I found

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Speaker 4: a bunch of reasonable conservatives who also supported it.

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Speaker 1: And so talking about this at a personal level, this

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Speaker 1: is your first job as a minister. You're taking through

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Speaker 1: what is probably one of the hardest policies that had

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Speaker 1: to go through the government at that time. Give us

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Speaker 1: a few examples of how bad it got and how

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Speaker 1: you found a way to deal with it.

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Speaker 4: It started off really early. I was given the Moniker

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Speaker 4: climate barbie. That was like, uh, probably week one or two.

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Speaker 4: I did nothing with it. I ignored it, and in fact,

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Speaker 4: my advisors like, you know, I have my team and

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Speaker 4: they're like, don't do anything. It was irritating because obviously

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Speaker 4: it was trying to belittle me because of the color

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Speaker 4: of my hair or something, and also just personally, I

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Speaker 4: never played with barbies, so I was like, this is

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Speaker 4: really weird. But it got a lot worse. There was

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Speaker 4: a lot of I got threads, death threats, like a

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Speaker 4: lot of things sent to my office, like all of

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Speaker 4: those things. I ended up having security, And you know what,

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Speaker 4: I'm just gonna say it, like there are some right

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Speaker 4: wing politicians that are completely responsible for adding fuel to

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Speaker 4: the fire because they would just say things that were

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Speaker 4: patently untrue and that people would get riled up because

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Speaker 4: they were worried about being able to pay their bills

435
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 4: or their jobs. And so I suddenly became like I

436
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 4: was like trying to be the most like the smartest

437
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 4: policy more people get money back, like trying to talk

438
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 4: to conservative like and it was. It was bad, And

439
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 4: I was also worried We're gonna lose an election on it.

440
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 4: So I felt a ton of personal pressure. So I'd

441
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 4: wake up in the middle of the night and I'd

442
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 4: be like, Okay, who else can support it? Like what

443
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 4: can I do? What massage can I have? And then

444
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 4: I always had to fight now I'm Irish. My dad

445
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 4: is from Dublin, as ours five brothers. I'm from Hamilton.

446
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 4: It's a hard scrabble steel town and I'm a competitive swimmer,

447
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 4: so you put your head down, your drive for the walls.

448
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 4: So I'm tough, but it was a lot like I

449
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 4: did feel a heavy weight because I thought, gosh, if

450
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 4: we don't land this, we're not going to be able

451
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 4: to have a credible climate plan. But worse, we're going

452
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 4: to lose the belief in people who want serious, credible

453
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 4: action and climate change. In particular, the ones that impacted

454
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: me most were young people, and by the way, my

455
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 4: three kids were on me every day.

456
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: One of the things that is part of the Pricing Act,

457
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: which is that it's going to increase the amount to

458
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: pay for pollution. So now it's at fifty dollars a ton,

459
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: it's going to go all the way up to one

460
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy dollars a ton. Is it sustainable?

461
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 4: Well, once again, I mean nothing changes in the sense

462
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 4: that you're going to pay more, but you get more

463
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 4: money back, and in fact, hopefully you continue to proportionally

464
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: pay less because you have options that will enable you

465
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 4: to reduce your emissions. But it's hard, right, Like obviously

466
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 4: you know, people like it's going up, and then people

467
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 4: there's always you know, people who want to fight it

468
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 4: are opportunists, so they'll say, well, the gas prices are

469
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 4: so high, it's all the price and pollution, which is

470
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: obviously not at all true. Like the we've seen humongous

471
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 4: fluctuations in gas prices as a results of the rest

472
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 4: is the legal war in Ukraine, and because people are

473
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: very price sensitive to gas. It is hard. And when

474
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 4: politicians kind of say, well we've landed that, I say,

475
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 4: you've never landed it. You always have to fight it.

476
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 4: You always have to be like good in your comps,

477
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: making sure you're explaining to people they're getting more money back, right,

478
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 4: And also what's going on. Our emissions are going down,

479
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 4: like we're tackling we're doing our part to help tackle

480
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 4: climate change.

481
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: What has been the effect of the legislation so far

482
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: on emissions?

483
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 4: Well, I mean initially with a price of ten dollars

484
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 4: or twenty or thirty forty, it's having you know, not

485
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 4: the it has to continuously go up to have the

486
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 4: bigger impact. But when you look at our twenty thirty target,

487
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 4: it's a significant part of the plan, and it also

488
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 4: has other impacts on innovation that is in price competitive

489
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 4: right now, it suddenly becomes a very realistic option. Yeah,

490
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 4: and that's everything from carbon capture storage to electric vehicles.

491
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: So you're seeing it having a behavioral change on folks

492
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 4: and that's of course the intent.

493
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: The way you've designed the Pricing Act, it's supposed to

494
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: try and make sure that the large emitters pay more,

495
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: but also that they are competitive with industries globally. How

496
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: do you stop those companies from moving abroad where there's

497
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: no carbon tax.

498
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 4: Well, that's why we brought an output based pricing system.

499
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 4: So you said, don't make it complicated. That is the

500
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 4: compleated part. I mean, competitiveness is an issue, right The

501
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 4: last thing we want to do or send Canadian jobs

502
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: to a country that's polluting. That's not the intent at all.

503
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 4: We want companies to have the incentive to reduce their emissions,

504
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: to invest in technologies that'll mean that they are polluting less.

505
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 4: That's the whole point of an output based pricing system.

506
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: A complex system that is too involved to describe right now,

507
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: but it works for Canadian industries. There is something else

508
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: that could work globally a carbon border tariff or carbon

509
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: border adjustment.

510
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: So for border carbon adjustments, an example often talked about

511
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 4: is like steel. So you're importing steel, you're using it

512
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 4: in Canada, but you've decided you're going to go and

513
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 4: get steal from a heavy polluting country because the steel's cheaper,

514
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 4: but the carbon footprint is cheaper. So the government just says, Okay,

515
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 4: at the border, we're going to adjust for the fact

516
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 4: that your emissions or your profile are much higher, so

517
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 4: we're going to put a tariff on that. And that

518
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 4: will mean that there isn't this competitiveness issue, that there

519
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 4: isn't a drive to like the bottom where we're going

520
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 4: to go buy aluminum for steel from wherever where it's

521
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 4: got a huge carbon footprint and it's really cheap because

522
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 4: they haven't put a price on pollution. My background is

523
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 4: in trade lass, so I certainly believe that we need

524
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 4: to bring climate in trade together. I think that's very important.

525
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: Climate is not just an environmental issue, it's an economic

526
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 4: issue quite frankly, because I mean we're talking about transforming

527
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: the economy now.

528
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: Canada has the third largest stone supply of oil and

529
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: that's a vast fortune to be made. Do you think

530
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: the Cambon pricing plan will be enough to stop Canada

531
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: from exploiting all that resource or not?

532
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 4: That's kind of a weird question. We can't all continue

533
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 4: exploiting all of the fossil fuels anywhere. That's actually just

534
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 4: a science thing. Do I think that putting a price

535
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 4: on pollution will help create the right incentives for Canada's

536
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 4: oil and gas to be cleaner? I certainly hope so.

537
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 4: I think the proofs in the pudding. But the reality

538
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 4: is we've known about climate change, and oil and gas

539
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 4: companies have known about climate change, and you know, they

540
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 4: need to diversify their portfolios and they need to drastically

541
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 4: reduce their emissions. We need to see outcomes, and that

542
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 4: includes in Canada. Because often we hear from the oil

543
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: and gas sector we're the cleanest in the world. That

544
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 4: is not true. The oil stands are far from the

545
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 4: cleanest in the world. Sure, maybe you've reduced your emissions intensity.

546
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 4: One emissions intensity is in emission reductions. The planet doesn't

547
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 4: really care. But emission's intensity. It's not irrelevant to you know,

548
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 4: a climate plan. But you need to see emission reductions,

549
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 4: and we're just we're not really seeing that. So anyway,

550
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 4: it's a complicated space, like this is the biggest challenge

551
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: for Canada. But the reality is largest source of emissions.

552
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 4: Twenty five percent of Canada's emissions are from the oil

553
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: and gas sector. It's been increasing in Alberta and Saskatchewan

554
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 4: are the two provinces that have increased. So everyone else

555
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 4: is doing hard work, but there's no point. You could

556
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: plant every tree, you could retrofit every building, You're not

557
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 4: going to be able to get Canada's emissions to go down.

558
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: I was just watching Borgan. I bet you've got Borgan watchers.

559
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: Do you watch Borgan?

560
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: Acshat haven't?

561
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 4: It's a Danish political show. You have to watch it anyway. Borgan,

562
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: who's awesome. She was like my inspiration for being able

563
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 4: to take questions. But it's actually good because in this

564
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: season of Borgan, it's like whether they should go exploit

565
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: more fossil fuels in Greenland. And it's a big question, right,

566
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: like is it ethical if it comes from Canada? Is

567
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 4: it ethical? Look? Does Canda have good better regulations?

568
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: Yes?

569
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: Is it like we care about humor rates?

570
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: Yes?

571
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: But the problem is like in a way, actually like

572
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: working on climate because it's just up and down. Missions

573
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: either go up or they go down. The realities the

574
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 4: missions have to go down. They have to go down

575
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: in Canada, they have to go down everywhere. So now

576
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 4: is it complicated. We're not off fossil fuels now, so

577
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 4: do we need to figure that out? Yes, but we

578
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: need to figure it out fast and everyone needs to

579
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 4: do their part.

580
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm going to ask thank you some questions

581
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: that we've kind of touched on in our conversation so firm,

582
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask you to keep the answers

583
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: to maybe a sentence, if it's possible.

584
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: Do you think I can do one sentence acshot?

585
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: I don't know.

586
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: What do you think other countries can learn from Canada's

587
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: carbon pricing system?

588
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: Make it no longer free to plute? Give all the

589
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 4: money back?

590
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: What advice do you have for people who are charged

591
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: with getting a buy in on this kind of carbon

592
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: pricing system?

593
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: Care about real people?

594
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: How do you think the current system can be improved?

595
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 4: It's got to ratchet up.

596
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: Price has to go up, but there's already ratcheting up

597
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: included in it.

598
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: Right, you have to stick to it, right, We can't

599
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 4: have a different political party that comes in and dismantles it.

600
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: Do you think the carbon pricing system is going to

601
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: be up for grabs in the next elections?

602
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: Oh?

603
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 4: I think hope. Spring's eternal for conservative politicians. I think

604
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 4: regular people understand it can't be free to pollute.

605
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Okay. One of the big ideas being discussed by Justin

606
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: Trudeau is creating a minimum price on carbon. Is that

607
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: how he's hoping that he can export what Canada has

608
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: learned from the pricing scheme across the globe. Oh?

609
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 4: Right, So he said that there should be a minimum

610
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 4: price on carbon globally. Yeah. I mean, I think it's

611
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 4: just good policy. But it's not just Justin Trudeau. It's

612
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: like economists, it's there's a wide range of people who

613
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 4: believe in the evidence shows that it works. So I

614
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: think it's really important. I think that. I mean, if

615
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: we had a price on pollution, it can continue to

616
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: go up. You would see a lot of innovation that

617
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 4: we need and a lot of innovation that's now there

618
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: that we need to scale but it's too expensive. You'd

619
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: see actions by companies that pollute a lot that they

620
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: would make serious investments to stopping to pollute. So but

621
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 4: having said that, you know you have to be able

622
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: to land it politically and you do need to think

623
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 4: about the impacts on real people.

624
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thanks for taking

625
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: all those questions.

626
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 4: Thank you, it was great. If anyone needs any help

627
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 4: wants to put a price in pollution, I have a

628
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 4: lot to say on this.

629
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: Carbon pricing is complicated, both in how it is implemented

630
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: and how it's politically perceived. But that's no reason not

631
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: to try, because done right, it does work to reduce emissions.

632
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Zero. If you like the show,

633
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Shared

634
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: with a friend or someone who likes Danish political thrillers.

635
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine

636
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: driskell Ar. Theme music is composed by Wondering. Special thanks

637
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: this week to Kira Bindram, Dave Sawyer, Colonel Wagner, Niallie

638
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: Haramo Plata and Abreyer Ruffin. I am Akshatrati Back next week.