WEBVTT - Degrowth with Andrew, Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here um

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<v Speaker 1>the show where things happen people talk about it, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>in this present location. That's correct. Last episode we spoke

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<v Speaker 1>about the concept of the growth and what it means

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<v Speaker 1>to the growth, how the growth as a movement came about,

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<v Speaker 1>what inspired the critique that the growth pushes, and what

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<v Speaker 1>the growth means for those of us who live in

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<v Speaker 1>the Global South, how we can go about imagining um

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<v Speaker 1>new and different paths to a better life within ecological limits.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode will continue in that conversation talking about what

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<v Speaker 1>is essential for the growth. As I discussed in the

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<v Speaker 1>previous episode, the growth is about striving for self determined

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<v Speaker 1>life and dignity for all. It means an economy in

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<v Speaker 1>a society that can sustain the natural basis of life.

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<v Speaker 1>It means reduction of production and consumption the globe on

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<v Speaker 1>the north and the liberation on the one sided Western

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<v Speaker 1>paradigm of development, so that the Global South can explore

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<v Speaker 1>their own, our own, self determined pace of social organization.

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<v Speaker 1>The growth means an extension of democratic decision making to

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<v Speaker 1>allow for real political participation. The growth means that social

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<v Speaker 1>changes organized and oriented towards sufficiency and self sufficiency and

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<v Speaker 1>ecological sustainability, rather than the pursuits of a line grew

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<v Speaker 1>up a pursuit of economic growth, regardless of its impact

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<v Speaker 1>on people planet. Ad growth, of course, advocates for the

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<v Speaker 1>creation of open, connected, and localized economies. There are several

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<v Speaker 1>steps that need to be taken in order to achieve

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<v Speaker 1>a D growth society. Achieve a D growth will to

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<v Speaker 1>de grow. For one, I think that, as Jason Hickel

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<v Speaker 1>advocates in his book Less is More, we absolutely need

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<v Speaker 1>to put an end to the practice of planned obsolescence,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it be in household appliances and tools and furniture

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<v Speaker 1>and computers. We need to shift away from this idea

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<v Speaker 1>of products being produced to break down in a certain

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<v Speaker 1>timeline and require replacement. Um. I reasonally have witnessed a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of older technologies that continued to last to this

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<v Speaker 1>day before because they were invented before this will practice

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<v Speaker 1>a planets lessons really keen about. Yeah, but my family

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<v Speaker 1>we have a microwave that is like a decade older

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<v Speaker 1>than I am and it still works fine. Wow. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean in my own lifetime, I've had to

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<v Speaker 1>purchase multiple microwaves, so it's it's ridiculous. Yeah, That's always

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that I always thought like there

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<v Speaker 1>was a real sort of like this is how you

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<v Speaker 1>this is how you appeal to conservative people with this

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<v Speaker 1>is just like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>bring back like nineteen sixties microwaves where everything is a

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<v Speaker 1>dial and it doesn't break every Yeah, because I think, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think what's what's missing in the conversation about team

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<v Speaker 1>growth is a lot of people like that they assume

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<v Speaker 1>because they react with now that everybody else will, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they kind of project their own reaction to others. But

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<v Speaker 1>I think political spectrum aside um or political chart or

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<v Speaker 1>how are you gonna um map out the unmappable UM.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that people generally, as I was discussing the

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<v Speaker 1>previous episode, want a good life, and that requires qualitative

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<v Speaker 1>changes far more than it requires quantitative changes. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>there are places where quantitative changes are needed to make

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<v Speaker 1>some things accessible to that population. UM. But we already

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<v Speaker 1>overproduce a lot of different things UM, and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of overproduction is completely necessary because it is based and

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<v Speaker 1>planned obs lessons in order to increase profits, and so

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<v Speaker 1>that needs to once that is discarded. I think people

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<v Speaker 1>have will will best be able to access that quality

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<v Speaker 1>of life because we look at a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>sudden expenses that people have to deal with. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you've fridge suddenly breaking down, your stove suddenly breaking down,

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<v Speaker 1>in my careave for your toolster suddenly breaking now, and

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<v Speaker 1>or you wash the machine. Um. I think in this

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<v Speaker 1>year alone, have had to fix the washing machine three

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<v Speaker 1>or four times because it's just constantly breaks down. And

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<v Speaker 1>when instead we can save that those resources, see if

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<v Speaker 1>that time, see that energy, see that money. Um, just

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<v Speaker 1>producing quality for the foodst time, you know, put an

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<v Speaker 1>end to those deliberate manufacturing decisions and developing long lasting

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<v Speaker 1>modular products that can reduce our you know, material and

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<v Speaker 1>energy use worldwide. I think in a lot of cases,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't necessarily need more innovation. You know, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think we really need like a smart fridge. I think

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<v Speaker 1>we just need a fridge that works for decades without

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<v Speaker 1>breaking down constantly. Yeah, And like so much of the

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<v Speaker 1>stuff that's sort of like nominally is informat like it

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<v Speaker 1>is supposed to be. Innovation is just how how how

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<v Speaker 1>can we make this product in such a way that

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<v Speaker 1>we can sell consumer data about you from it like

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<v Speaker 1>we don't need to do that. We can simply not,

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<v Speaker 1>we can simply not, we can simply not exactly exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>And speaking of things that we can simply not, we

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<v Speaker 1>can simply not assault our senses constantly with advertisis And

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<v Speaker 1>because advertising just continues to see this poopers of generating

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<v Speaker 1>social divisions, highlighting class divisions, and manipulating people into consuming

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<v Speaker 1>stuff they don't need. As a card carrying member of

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<v Speaker 1>Generations Z, I have not I do not typically watch

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<v Speaker 1>much TV. UM. I used to watch TV because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the older gen Z contin gent, but with the rise

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<v Speaker 1>of streaming services UM, which I do not use, yoho hoo,

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<v Speaker 1>is I have to say about that? UM, I have

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<v Speaker 1>not watched much TV. UM. But there's a certain reality

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<v Speaker 1>shoes that I enjoy, like the Amazing Race UM, and

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<v Speaker 1>so those sense to be showing on TV. I like Jeopardy.

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<v Speaker 1>I like to watch Jeopardy and the constant deeply unfunny, irritating, annoying, loud,

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<v Speaker 1>flashy barrage of commercials quite aggravating. UM. Honestly, the golden

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<v Speaker 1>age of crucials being funny. It was a long time

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<v Speaker 1>ago and now it's just suits. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that I mentioned that in UM, in the episode that

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<v Speaker 1>we had done on the Commons. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that I one of the positions I held even before

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<v Speaker 1>I was an anarchist, was my opposition to the advertising

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<v Speaker 1>industry to advertise it. I can't stand advertising. Everybody walk, everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>screw everything you watch and listen to it's also going

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<v Speaker 1>to sell you something. Um. I would love to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to go outside and not see ads all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>I would love to use a screw to the incident

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<v Speaker 1>out seeing ads all the time. UM. And so getting

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<v Speaker 1>really advertising industry, getting rid of all these ads are

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<v Speaker 1>just pushing us to consume one and more um, and

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<v Speaker 1>oftentimes just promoting a lot of really harmful societal ideas,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, um, body images, use and alcoholism and a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of our worst practices and a lot of really

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<v Speaker 1>terrible things of being promoted through ads. And so yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>tear it down and watch consumerism perish. When you think

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<v Speaker 1>about really history the advertise industry and how it came about.

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<v Speaker 1>As a mass communication student, UM, that's something that I

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<v Speaker 1>would have spend some time looking into. Advertising really came

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<v Speaker 1>about in response to you know, this need that people had,

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<v Speaker 1>really that that that that companies had to get people

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<v Speaker 1>to consume because in a lot of cases, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people would buy something and a newer model would come

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<v Speaker 1>out and they would really pay attention to it because

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<v Speaker 1>already have the thing. I don't need to get another thing. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, you can't run a profitable business that wey.

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<v Speaker 1>So they basically used advertising to push people to consume more,

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<v Speaker 1>and so we need to get rid of the advertising industry.

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<v Speaker 1>Another stuff we can take to us the growth is

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<v Speaker 1>to shift from ownership to use the fruct um. Use

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<v Speaker 1>of fruct is something that Marie booked Chin Social Ecologists

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<v Speaker 1>talks a lot about um in his book The Ecology

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<v Speaker 1>of Freedom, and it's essentially the freedom of individuals or

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<v Speaker 1>groups in a community to access and use, but not destroy,

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<v Speaker 1>common resources to supply their needs. The term use of

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<v Speaker 1>fruct comes from Roman property law, I believe, which would

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<v Speaker 1>include use us the right to use. Sorry, unfortunately I

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<v Speaker 1>did not take Latin yeah practice. It's just the right

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<v Speaker 1>to enjoy the fruit of one's property and abuse us,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the right to destroy one's property. So use

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<v Speaker 1>us fruct us and abuse us um, and so use

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<v Speaker 1>of fractice really the combination of the first two principles.

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<v Speaker 1>Right to access and use and enjoy the fruit of

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<v Speaker 1>um commonly held property without you the right to destroy

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<v Speaker 1>it UM so everyone can supply their needs. So instead

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<v Speaker 1>of and I mean two libraries already a concept that

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<v Speaker 1>they exists around the world, rather than a hundred people

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<v Speaker 1>in a community each individually order an electric drill, UM,

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<v Speaker 1>one person or rather one library can host or three

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<v Speaker 1>or four electric drills and effectively serve everyone's need for

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<v Speaker 1>a drill when they need it, because unless they're carpenter

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<v Speaker 1>or really into arts and crafts, you probably don't need

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<v Speaker 1>an electric drill all the time. Another thing that we're

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<v Speaker 1>really helping or pushed towards the RUTH will be getting

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<v Speaker 1>rid of car dependency, because the consumption of vehicles, the

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<v Speaker 1>mainstendence of vehicles, the maintenance of the infrastructure of vehicles,

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<v Speaker 1>use all of those things requires a lot of resources,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, concrete and oil and gas and metals and

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<v Speaker 1>great earth minerals. And rather than forcing everyone to produce

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<v Speaker 1>these things we could consume those things, we can instead

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<v Speaker 1>shift towards walkable model for our urban environments. UM so

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<v Speaker 1>that people who do need to use vehicles in rural settings,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, can use them, and you can use them

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<v Speaker 1>without causing unnecessarily unnecessary harm contributing to unnecessary harm superfluous

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<v Speaker 1>harm on the planet. UM. Getting rid of car dependency

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<v Speaker 1>would also mean that fewer people would need vehicles, and

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<v Speaker 1>the vehicles that the few vehicles that we do produce

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<v Speaker 1>UM can be shaped in common to serve needs that

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<v Speaker 1>cannot be filled by like bikes or you know, probably

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<v Speaker 1>transportation systems. Another element of deep growth would really be

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<v Speaker 1>the reduction of our energy material use through the transformation

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<v Speaker 1>of our agriculture systems. It is true that we currently

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<v Speaker 1>produce enough food for I believe ten billion people. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of that food is wasted. UM. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>food doesn't reach people. UM. It's really an issue of

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<v Speaker 1>allocation and not necessary production. But at the same time

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<v Speaker 1>that production is extremely harmful. UM. It relies on a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of damaging chemicals, relies on the stripping of our

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<v Speaker 1>top soils, relies on the overuse of antibiotics, relies on

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<v Speaker 1>the abuse of animals. UM. The way that we currently

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<v Speaker 1>feed the world is deeply unequal, extremely inefficient, environmentally degrading,

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<v Speaker 1>and energy wasting we cannot continue to treat our farms

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<v Speaker 1>like factories. We need to find we used to feed

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<v Speaker 1>ourselves densely and compatibly with the amount and the living world.

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<v Speaker 1>Scaling down to localized proma culture can help. CHANI based

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<v Speaker 1>agricultural systems, community supported agriculture, urban gardens, aquaponics, cultured meats, aquacultures,

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<v Speaker 1>and exploring other more traditional forms of food raising will

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<v Speaker 1>need to be the route that we take. Already, we

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<v Speaker 1>are killing our soils, We are running out to the

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<v Speaker 1>fossil fuels that UM the agricultural industry relies on. And

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<v Speaker 1>if we continue along the trajectory, we have a big

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<v Speaker 1>storm coming. We have probably the greatest famine the plant

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<v Speaker 1>has ever seen on its way. If we do not

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<v Speaker 1>aim to build food autonomy, aim to rewild our ecologies

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<v Speaker 1>aimed to reconfigure our consumption patterns or food production and

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<v Speaker 1>consumption patterns two seequester more carbon to allocate two more people,

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<v Speaker 1>to produce healthier foods um and to really to recover

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<v Speaker 1>the earth. Another important stuff we can take in the

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<v Speaker 1>growth would be to get rid of what scale down

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<v Speaker 1>to an especially destructive industries. There is, of course, agriculture.

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<v Speaker 1>There's um the fossil fuels industry, the arms industry, private

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<v Speaker 1>jet industry, the automobile industry, the airline industries. All of

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<v Speaker 1>these industries must either be slimmed down or gotten rid

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<v Speaker 1>of um because as the pandemic has showing, very few

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<v Speaker 1>of the jobs that are currently undertaken around the world

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<v Speaker 1>are truly essential to maintain in the bare bones of life.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course we do need to reconfigure the way

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<v Speaker 1>that we live. The ways of life you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to reflect ecological limits. But even with that reconfiguration, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we knew what industries needed and what on UM.

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<v Speaker 1>I always find it strange, This is, I guess a tangent.

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<v Speaker 1>I always find it strange that politicians are celebrated for

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<v Speaker 1>bracken about creating new jobs, when in reality, I believe

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<v Speaker 1>and really the vision was in the twentieth century that

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<v Speaker 1>we would reach a point where fewer and fewer people

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<v Speaker 1>needed to work, and that we need to work for

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<v Speaker 1>less time um. And so that really is part of

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<v Speaker 1>the aim of the growth. Reviving that pursuit, reviving that

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<v Speaker 1>cool because we have reached the point where we can

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<v Speaker 1>um scale on the amount of time each posson has

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<v Speaker 1>to work skill only amounts of jobs and an't necessary. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>If you've read Bullshit Jobs by David Greable, you'll see

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:31.359
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of particularly service economy jobs ah practically worthless. Um.

0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.359
<v Speaker 1>And I actually saw kind of funny video talking about

0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:40.200
<v Speaker 1>how at this point office culture is more of a religion.

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that's so good. Yeah, so that going and going

0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:48.439
<v Speaker 1>around making the surrounds on Twitter, that was really funny. Um.

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.920
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, we just move around a bunch of people

0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 1>move around and wunt numbers. If you've seen, um, the

0:17:53.840 --> 0:18:03.159
<v Speaker 1>show Succession, that Succession Severance, do you see the show's sufferance. Um,

0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.080
<v Speaker 1>it's it's pretty much like an our slash anti work

0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:13.200
<v Speaker 1>type show. UM. And so I think one more people

0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.960
<v Speaker 1>are coming too, the realization that hey, this kind of sucks,

0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:18.280
<v Speaker 1>the fact that we have to work this much, so

0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.880
<v Speaker 1>we need to reduce the amount of time we work, um,

0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:22.840
<v Speaker 1>the type of work between to change type of work

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>we do. So it's a quantitative and qualitative shift and

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.240
<v Speaker 1>something I spoke about in my view on anti work

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 1>or post work, whatever you want to call it. These changes,

0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.359
<v Speaker 1>these steps to skal on total energy use, can be

0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 1>taken by a broad range of organizations. Groups, mass movements,

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 1>popular assemblies, unions, cooperatives, not waiting for the state, but

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.600
<v Speaker 1>going beyond it. I think we've seen by now. I

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.480
<v Speaker 1>think if you have not seen right now, it needs

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.240
<v Speaker 1>open your eyes. The state is not doing enough or

0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.439
<v Speaker 1>some cases not doing anything at all, to respond to

0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.560
<v Speaker 1>these cry sees, and we need to take it into

0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 1>our own hands to do so. UM. I have a

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 1>video in store UM for December that as one of

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 1>my patron's jokes, might have the alphabet agencies after me.

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.560
<v Speaker 1>But there are a lot of different actions that we

0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:28.800
<v Speaker 1>can take UM to integrate the growth, to move towards

0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 1>a decro society, to de grow our economies, a combination

0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:49.919
<v Speaker 1>of acts of confrontation and non cooperation and prefiguration in

0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 1>some degrowth challenges. The dominant growth imperative it's in the

0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:01.879
<v Speaker 1>name it is intentionally servers of in its title because

0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 1>it requires us to think about how we can collectively

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.080
<v Speaker 1>organize the restructuring of all economy and the downscale of

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:15.160
<v Speaker 1>energy and resource use worldwide. The transition back into balance

0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 1>with the living will in a safe, just an equitable way.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.320
<v Speaker 1>The growth means striving for a selftitude, life and dignity

0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 1>and abundance for all. The growth of mean liberating ourselves

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.240
<v Speaker 1>not just from the ways that the growth imperative has

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:39.280
<v Speaker 1>shaped our technologies. Education the growth who require that we

0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 1>not just liberate ourselves from the ways that the growth

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:47.800
<v Speaker 1>imperative has shaved our technologies and institutions, but it demands

0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 1>that we also reconsider education our cultural norms and values,

0:20:53.320 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 1>or identities or mindsets or relationships. It will be a

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:08.080
<v Speaker 1>massive shift with anarchists called social revolution um, but it's

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.800
<v Speaker 1>one that is worthwhile. As some de growth advocates would see,

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 1>it's de growth by choice or the growth by force?

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>What's the use of de growth here? Has being used

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.960
<v Speaker 1>slightly differently, the growth by choice being like I described,

0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:36.280
<v Speaker 1>collectively organized, democratically managed restructure of the economy to bring

0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 1>into bounce the living will in a safe, just nequitable

0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.439
<v Speaker 1>way um, whereas de growth by force is more so

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:50.080
<v Speaker 1>a combination of austerity and apocalypse. So up to you,

0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.480
<v Speaker 1>all powers, all powers of the people. So there's there's

0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.880
<v Speaker 1>a Japanese Marxist named Khe Saito who's been writing like

0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of stuff recently, who basically like he's been

0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.720
<v Speaker 1>probably the biggest voice of the growth in Japan, and

0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.080
<v Speaker 1>his book Capital on the Antipascene is finally getting translated

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:15.639
<v Speaker 1>into English pretty soon, and so yeah, check that out

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 1>when it comes out. His stuff is really good and

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 1>he like basically has revived both Marxism and d growth

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:29.600
<v Speaker 1>in Japan after Marxism is kind of like enclosure after

0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.199
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of weird fairy Wait we we don't need

0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:33.200
<v Speaker 1>to get into the story of the claps of the

0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Japanese Left. But yeah, that that that's coming. I'll check

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 1>that out. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to that book

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.040
<v Speaker 1>when it comes out. Yeah, me too. If you want

0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.119
<v Speaker 1>to check out my videos on this topic and others,

0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 1>just go to YouTube dot com slash androidsm. You can

0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:54.240
<v Speaker 1>also follow me on Twitter um while Twitter still exists,

0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:59.199
<v Speaker 1>on discloss and Drew and she could potentially even support

0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:04.280
<v Speaker 1>on Patreon, feature dot com slash st true as it Peace.

0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.480
<v Speaker 1>It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.520
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0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 1>the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.920
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0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Happen here updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:26.920
<v Speaker 1>slash sources, Thanks for listening.