1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: the Thing from My Heart Radio. In filmmaking, there are 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: public roles like the actors and directors, and there are 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: critical behind the scenes roles filled by people who rarely 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: become household names. Among them screenwriters who provide dynamic material 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: to work with and editors who in the end shape 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: the film. You see. My guests today are two of 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: the most successful people in the film industry. Screenwriter David 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: Kepp and film editor Walter Merch have worked with legendary 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: directors such as Francis Ford Coppola, Steven Spielberg, and Brian 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: de Palma, just to name a few. Walter Merch started 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: his career as a sound editor. He received his first 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: Oscar nomination for his work on the nineteen seventy four 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: classic The Conversation. He worked on Apocalypse Now, for which 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: he won his first Oscar, and he later picked up 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: two more Academy Awards for the English Patients, becoming the 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: first person to win for both sound mixing and editing 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: on the same film. But first, I'm talking to writer 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: and director David Kepp. He's written some of the biggest 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: blockbusters in movie history films like Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones, 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Spider Man, and Mission Impossible. He's also directed several of 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: the films he's written, including last year's You Should Have 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: Left with Kevin Bacon and Amanda Seyfried. David kept says 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: he started writing because, as a boy, he found a 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: typewriter in his family's basement in Pewaukee, Wisconsin. He quickly 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: tapped into the human condition. I thought it would be 27 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: great in my room to have this typewriter on a 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: typewriter stand. And then I think I was probably ten 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: or eleven, and I thought I should write a story 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: because I had him. Now I had an office product. 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: So the next step was writing a story. So I 32 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: would write stories about some kid who didn't want to 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: go to camp, but his horrible parents made him go 34 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: to camp, and then something terrible happened to camp, and uh. 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: Then in high school I'd write stories about some teenager 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: who was misunderstood by young women and one of the 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: things that were a little close to the bone. I 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: just enjoyed it. I mean I had a lot of fun. 39 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: I remember in English class in high school, I had 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: a friend who hated writing, so I said, well, I'll 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: write your story. So I wrote him a story which 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: was sort of blagiarized from John and Mary, the Dustin 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: Hoffman movie, which I'd seen on TV a few nights before. 44 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: But his story won a prize, which really made me crazy. 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: So that was I started. I just I liked that 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: I didn't need anybody's permission. I could just go upstairs 47 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: and start typing. So I'm assuming you were a movie 48 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: buff as well while you're starting your writing career. Yeah, absolutely, 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: I love movies. Were you watching phonos when you were 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: a kid. Yeah, you watched what was on TV? It 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: was Channel four, six, twelve and the uh F Channel 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: eight teens, and so the ones I really remember vividly 53 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: were the uh F Channel eight teen ones because they 54 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: were the cheapest ones they could get. It was a 55 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: lot of Godzilla movies. I remember for years they ran 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: the Basil Rathbone Nigel Bruce Slock Holmes, and I was 57 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: watching one the other day, Terror by Night. There was 58 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: one during World War Two which bends with them in 59 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: a car in front of a rear projection of the 60 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: like the Washington Monument and stuff and talking about how 61 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: America is going to come into the war and save 62 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: democratic values. It still makes me kind of misty. But 63 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: I remember my mother telling me when I was about 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: ten that I needed to stay up late tonight because 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: there was a very special movie on TV and I 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: had to watch it with her, and it was Notorious 67 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: Hitchcock movie. And I it's a great movie, and even 68 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: at ten, I could appreciate it was a great movie. 69 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: But the concept of staying up till midnight on a 70 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: school night for a movie, I think kind of fused 71 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: this idea that movies were fun and you could get 72 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: away with stuff and have a good time. What do 73 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: you think it was that your mother wanted you to 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: stay up the midnight watching movies. She wanted a movie companion. 75 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: I think she and my dad were not getting along 76 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: very well. I was in the identical situation and my 77 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: dad was the movie goer. The very first movie that 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: I began that to do with my dad was Sorry, 79 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: Wrong Number, which to this day I have an annual 80 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: appointment with Burt mine Caster and Barbara Stammick and Ed 81 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: Bigley Senior. Sorry Wrong Number is one of my favorite 82 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: because I love a confined space thriller, and it also 83 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: contains the classic barbera stand mclin operator. Operator, I'm a 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: hopeless invalid, and I just likes the idea of describing 85 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: herself as hopeless. I love that actor. What was that 86 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: actor who plays the old man? And he says, I 87 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: can be reached the Bowery to one thousand, and then 88 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: she calls back said, no, we can't take no messages. Yeah, man, 89 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: what number am I calling? He says, the city Morgue. Man, 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: that's not a music queue. Don't know what now? Where 91 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: Where did you go to college? I went to several 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: I started at the University of Minnesota. I was born 93 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, but I didn't get into my first choice 94 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: college and they had the latest application deadline. It wasn't 95 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: a great plan. And then I transferred to went to 96 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin at Madison for a few years, 97 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: which was great. I wanted to be an actor in 98 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: those days, and I did tons of theater. But over 99 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: the course of those couple of years, I realized writing 100 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: was the thing I wanted to do. Had you been 101 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: writing while you were in college or you and I 102 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: had a playwriting teacher who was directing me in Arsenic 103 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: and hold Lace at the time, and I asked him 104 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: how I was doing, and he started complimenting my my 105 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: play that I was writing, and I said, no, no, no, 106 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: I mean in the show. I I know what you mean, 107 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: Mr kapp I, and he encouraged me to get out. 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: He said, if you want to make movies, which I 109 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: did by then go west or go east. But we 110 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: don't really do them here. So I applied to u 111 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: c l A's Film School and got in there for 112 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: graduate school. No still undergrad. I stretched it out to 113 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a healthy eleven years. Junior year was three of the 114 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: best years of my turn thirty in my film class 115 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: and was the focus when you were at UC on screenwriting. Yeah, 116 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: but then I knew that's I want to write scripts. 117 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: And whether it distinguished moms or whether they distinguished mentors 118 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: that come in guest teach or none of them. They 119 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: didn't then, I mean you'd get the occasional person coming 120 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: and showing you their movie and doing a Q and A. 121 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: But in terms of faculty, the guy like best was 122 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: a professor named Richard Walter who was there for probably 123 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: forty years, and he was very good and very imitatable 124 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 1: and very quotable, but he was also very brass tacks, 125 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: which was great because he would interrupt someone midstream when 126 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: talking about when they're trying to tell their idea, and 127 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: he'd say, do you know what kind of movies I like? 128 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: I like films that are not boring films and force 129 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: you into move it, move it. Things must happen early 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: and often, and that's how character revealed. And I like 131 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: that when you're there and you're in a prestigious program, 132 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: a teacher in a classic that what does he or 133 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: she have to offer you? There are two things. First, 134 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: you start taking yourself seriously, which if you're from a 135 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: small town in Wisconsin, is an important step because everyone 136 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: thinks you're, you know, an asshole for wanting to do 137 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: what you do or in Midwestern terms, making kind of 138 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: a production out of yourself. So to want to go 139 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: off and work in Hollywood is absurd. And when you 140 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: get to a place where people start to accept that 141 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: as the norm and most other people want to do 142 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: that too, it's a really important step. But the most 143 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: important thing I think I got out of u c 144 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: l A. Was relationships with other students, because everyone there 145 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: it's a kind of writing where you really need community 146 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: because especially because it's going to be so relentlessly collaborative 147 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: as your career goes on, if all goes well, And 148 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: to be surrounded by other people who want to write, 149 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: who want to do what you want to do, and 150 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: who are nowhere in their career so you don't have 151 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: to worry about jealousy is huge. And you learn from them, 152 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: and you see some who are better than you, and 153 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: you see ideally some who are worse than you, and 154 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: those were really important relationships. Remember Alexander Payne was he 155 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: was getting his masters when I was getting my undergrad 156 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: But we you know, y'all work on each other's films, 157 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: and you just kind of you can spot the winners 158 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: out of the gate. You can tell who's good. And 159 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Alexander was always supremely confident and his stuff was really good. 160 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: There's a guy named Don Payne who since passed away, 161 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: who went on to write a lot of the Simpsons 162 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: in a number of films. Don and I were great friends. 163 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: But you find those people who will read your work 164 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: and be critical without devastating you, and those are essential relationships. 165 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: When you finished U c l A. What happens next? 166 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: I had an internship working for a guy who was 167 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: a distributor's rap in the US, and so if there's 168 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: a video distributor in Australia and they wanted horror to idols, 169 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: we would buy horror titles like Sorority House, Massacre three 170 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: and then get the deliverable elements to them in their 171 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: home country. A certain amount of porn, but you know, 172 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: a lot of slasher movies and a lot of stuff 173 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: like that. So I would go to film markets, which 174 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: was eye opening to see what they were like. I 175 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: actually went to can when I was twenty four years old. 176 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: He paid for it because we were picking up all 177 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: these titles for foreign distributors and it was the Can 178 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: Film Festival, but we weren't going to the festival. It 179 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: was just at the same time we were going to 180 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: the can Film Market, which is in the basement of 181 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: the Pale. It is truly a horror show. But you know, 182 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: I was making money to work in the movie business, 183 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: and again I learned an enormous amount because I I 184 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: saw a ton of movies and I read a lot 185 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: of scripts and I felt like I can do better 186 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: than this. And through that I met an Argentine director 187 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: named Martin Donovan, not the actor Martin Donovan and he 188 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: had an idea for a movie which we wrote together, 189 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: and then just sort of a point at ourselves producers 190 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: of and went out and raised money by hooker crook 191 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: and credit cards and made our first movie, which was 192 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Apartment Zero. And then from there I started working. And 193 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: how much money was the budget of the film here 194 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: we call it was a million two, of which we'd 195 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: raised about five hundred thousand when we started shooting it was. 196 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: It was terribly planned, and I was twenty four years old, 197 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: so I had no idea what I was doing. You 198 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: didn't know how stupid it was what you were doing, 199 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: so you just kept going no. And I was also 200 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: for some reason we were comfortable lying to people. We 201 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: tricked Colin Firth and Hart Bochner into being in the film, 202 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: both of whom were you working actors at the time, 203 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: and assumed that we would be able to pay our bills. 204 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: And then we using that cast and a budget which 205 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: we turns out had were in no way able to meet. 206 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: We banked it with our c A Columbia home video 207 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: with some help from this guy was working for and 208 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: UH borrowed against the contract and and then there was 209 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: an unscrupulous real estate guy from the Man who Died 210 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: and it was really as a classic indie movie story. 211 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: But we got our movie done, and then when we 212 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: got to post and had no money to finish, I 213 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: managed to sell a script which became this movie Bad 214 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: Influence that Curtis Hansen directed, and so I just took 215 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: everything from that script and put it into finishing Apartment Zero. 216 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: And what was it like working with Donovan? What did 217 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: you learn in your first experience about that relationship between 218 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: the director and the writer. Martin was somebody who took 219 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: me seriously I think mentors because he was a mentor figure. 220 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: He told me I was good and valued the stuff 221 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: I wrote. He was fourteen years older than me, which 222 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: helped because I also took him seriously, and he had 223 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 1: directed one indie movie before, very low budget like fifty 224 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: sixty I think. And he also had a reverence for 225 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: old Hollywood, so we watched everything. I mean, the look 226 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: on his face when he would ask me if I 227 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: had seen a film like a Place in the Sun 228 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: and I'd say no, was one of joy. He wasn't 229 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: looking down on me for what a terrible hole in 230 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: your film vocabulary. It was what an exciting opportunity. We're 231 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: going to rent it now and watch it tonight, and 232 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: that kind of unbridled enthusiasm. You can't find any just everywhere, 233 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: So that was that was important. He took me very seriously, 234 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: and we wrote one or two other scripts together, another 235 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: one of which was made. But then I was feeling 236 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: more comfortable writing on my own and Altarphew points were 237 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: wildly different when you worked with him when the film 238 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: was being made. What was your initial experience with someone 239 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: shooting your material? Because he was also the writer we 240 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: wrote it together. He was more collegial about it. He was, 241 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: but it was an unusual experience also because I was 242 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: also the producer with him, and even at that age, 243 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: was far more realistic about what we had and what 244 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: we didn't have. And Martin would do things like come 245 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: up with a tango scene in the street and call 246 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: all his friends on the way to the set that 247 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: day and then one of shoot at that night, and 248 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: I would have to say maybe one or two answers 249 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: in the background. Absolutely, I think no, there would be 250 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: a hundred of them, would be there will be elephants. Yeah, 251 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: I remember. I was horribly spoiled. Colin Firth, who was 252 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: probably twenty eight at the time and was just getting 253 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: some renown in England, came to me on one of 254 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: the first nights and there was a line he wanted 255 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: to change and he felt that the thing he wanted 256 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: to say, but that I had at the beginning. He 257 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: thought it would be easier at the end. And what 258 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: I mind terribly if if he moved that a line 259 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: to the end of the thing, And I said, no, 260 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: that'd be great, go ahead, And I sort of assumed 261 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: that's how it would always be in Hollywood. A request, 262 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: I have a request, I'd like to fill out a 263 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: form No. After the Martin Donovic experience, what was next? Well, 264 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: this bad influence was the script I had written on 265 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: my own. How was Hanson different from Donovan? Curtis was 266 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: far more tethered in what can really be accomplished, what 267 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: can be done? Martin is a brilliant but impractical dreamer, 268 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: and Curtis it had been in Hollywood for a very 269 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: long time. So we went and I rewrote the whole 270 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: script with him in his garage office, and it was 271 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: a tutorial specifically about screenwriting. I felt like I knew 272 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: a lot about writing, but about screenwriting for movies that 273 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: are about to go get shot. That's where I learned 274 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: a ton. For example, there was a scene in Bad 275 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: Influence where Roblow comes to be at a bad guy 276 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: and we're worried about James Spader and James Spader's brother 277 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: played by Christian Clementson, and we're going to Christian Clemenson's 278 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: apartment and to make us worried, you know, I had 279 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: a scene with Rob Blows two pages long. He was 280 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: menacing somebody on the street and then he goes into 281 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: the building and Curtis said, I'd rather lose track of him, 282 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: and also, I don't have time to shoot that. There's 283 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: a fence and it's got vertical spiky bars in it, 284 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: and as we panned down, as we tracked down the 285 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: line of vertical spiky bars, we see that one of 286 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: them is missing and he pushed is in slightly the 287 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: implication in the viewer's mind being somebody took the scary 288 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: spiky bar out. And it was just brilliant screenwriting. It 289 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: used an image to convey menace instead of a two 290 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: page dialogue scene, which is again like the old Billy 291 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: Wilder person of if you use the visual to show something, 292 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: the audience will love you forever because they draw the 293 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: conclusion in their own mind and their participants in your 294 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: movie instead of just watching screenwriter and director David Kepp. 295 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: In the annals of great film partnerships, few have been 296 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: as long lasting and celebrated as Martin Scorsese's with his 297 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: editor Thelma Schoonmaker. She's worked on every movie of his 298 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: since Raging Bull. She told me their collaboration begins when 299 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: she watches the daily footage. He wants me to look 300 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: at it cold and tell him if it works. So 301 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: that is my part of my job. So I tell 302 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: him what I think. He tells me what he thinks 303 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: them from those incredibly rich where actions of him. I 304 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: then begin to create selection. Then I do the first 305 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: cut before he comes in, when he's through shooting, and 306 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: then from that point on we do all the rest 307 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: of the twelve different edits of the movie together, very 308 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: twelve different edits of the movie. That's what we prefer 309 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,359 Speaker 1: to do. If we can hear more of my conversation 310 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: with film a Schoonmaker at Here's the Thing dot Org. 311 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: After the break, David kept talks about a time he 312 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: disagreed with Steven Spielberg over a scene in the sequel 313 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: to Jurassic Park. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's 314 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: the thing. David kept as quick to admit he got 315 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: very lucky early in his career. A turning point came 316 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: when his script for a film he thought would be 317 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: a small one caught a big name director as I 318 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Death Becomes Her a script I'd written with Martin that 319 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: we had imagined would be another indie movie, maybe a 320 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: five million dollar budget this time. But I was starting 321 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: to get some notice at the time for bad influence, 322 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: and so I managed to sell it to Universal. And 323 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: I remember Casey Silver, who was the head of Universal. 324 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: Universal thought it was sort of a lark and it 325 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: was this strange black comedy that maybe they'd make or 326 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: maybe they wouldn't, but it barely cost anything. And I 327 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: remember Casey Silver, who was a great supporter of mine, 328 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: who was the head of production at the time, called 329 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: me one day and said, so I sent your script 330 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: to a few directors and I said, oh good, and 331 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: he had to go and he said, Bob's a mechis 332 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: wants to direct it. And he sounded he sounded disappointed 333 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: because Bob at the time for Universal had just finished 334 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: the Back to the Future trilogy. No doubt they wanted 335 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: something a little more surefire commercial out of him, but 336 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: he took an interest in this bizarre black comedy which 337 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: then he cast with In an Inch of Its Life 338 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: with Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn and Bruce Willis and 339 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: made the delightfully bizarre movie he made, and then I 340 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: was sort of off and running. Then that got Spielberg's attention, 341 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: who wanted to meet and read some of the other 342 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: things I've done for Universal, because I was writing for 343 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: them at the time and was looking for somebody to 344 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: help him with the Jurassic Park. It's a loathsome story 345 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: mine from twenty four to nine years old. Really, it's 346 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: a miracle I have any friends at all. Sad It's 347 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: it's tough to tell because it went so riotously well 348 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: for me, and it's just not emblematic of what you 349 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: need to do really in the movie business. You gotta 350 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: hang around and keep writing and keep writing and keep writing. 351 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: I like to think those days came from me later, 352 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: because you can't all go like that all the time, 353 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: and it didn't. When you're working with the director who's 354 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: a big director, and they say to you, I'm gonna 355 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: cut the first two pages whatever their edict is, and 356 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: then I'm talking about you earlier in your career. You 357 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: just differ. What do you use it? And do you 358 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of push back? I would push back and I 359 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: would invariably lose. I remember one of the first things 360 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: I asked Bob was what do we do when we disagree? 361 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: And he said, one of we talk about it endlessly, 362 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: and one of us will persuade the other through logic, 363 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: which sounds good, and I'm absolutely sure that he intended 364 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: that to be the case, but that's not the case. 365 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: A director will and must do what they see. And 366 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: so I think that if you can get in their 367 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: head enough to create doubt about something that you think 368 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: is a mistake, did you do that? Did you did 369 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: you succeed it that? From time to time I would try, 370 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: and I would occasionally succeed, but not often. Now it went, 371 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: it went very well. I liked our collaboration on death 372 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: becomes or our sensibilities were a little different his, perhaps 373 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: broader and more visual mind, a bit drier. There's a 374 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: scene in which in an emergency room, when Sydney Pollock 375 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: comes in and has to tell her she's dead, and 376 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: I think that that's the tone I would have liked 377 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: for the whole movie. It's a sort of masterpiece of dry, 378 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: understated comedy. But Bob had different ideas and was thinking 379 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: more in terms of the emerging CG and how to 380 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: use it, and that's fine. The only one that really 381 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: kind of bothered me and I could never get over. 382 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: I felt there was a note that caused our structure 383 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: to partially collapse in a later draft to meet Movies 384 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: are structure, and that structural idea, to me, was sort 385 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,239 Speaker 1: of central to making the whole thing work. But in 386 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: general it was great, and I was working with big, 387 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: accomplished to Hollywood movie stars at the peak of their 388 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 1: crafts as the writer, at what point did you discover 389 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that you had to process the notes of the star 390 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: as well? What movie bad influence? Because Rob Lowe, who 391 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: was very hot at the time, was attached to play 392 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: the lead, and I thought that was a mistake because 393 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: he's a sympathetical lead who we have to imagine it 394 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: doesn't do very well with women, and I didn't see 395 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: anybody believing that. But there was a sort of seductive 396 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: bad guy character, and I felt he'd be much better 397 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: off playing Nobody really agreed with me, so I got 398 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: robbed to have lunch with me. I remember talking about 399 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: Donna Reid and from Here to Eternity and saying, you've 400 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: never done this, they won't see it coming. Of course 401 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: you should be the bad guy, and he agreed, and 402 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: so I managed to turn things around a little bit. 403 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: So I saw, also, though, the importance of getting the 404 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: star on your side, because they're the ones who have 405 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: to do it, and I really have. I really felt 406 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: like my high school and college acting was has been 407 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: beneficial to me my whole career, because you're the one 408 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: who has to do it. You're the one who's doesn't 409 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: want to look stupid. You're the one who doesn't want 410 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: to look fat in these clothes, and I can't run 411 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: in these shoes, and those are really valid points. I've 412 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: been frustrated by actor's notes sometimes because because their difficult 413 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: or I don't agree with it or whatever. But a 414 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: really good actor always comes like their character's lawyer. They're 415 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: sort of just passionately different. Well, my client, my client 416 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: simply wouldn't do that, and I get it. You're their 417 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: advocate for that character, and they must see it from 418 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: that character's point of view. You have to juggle everybody's. 419 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: But when you come two, the Spielberg experience, and of 420 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: course Jurassic Park was a novel. Yeah, it was a 421 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: Creton novel. They tried a couple of different versions of 422 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 1: the script. They tried one with Crichton, one with one 423 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: or two other writers, and it wasn't working out. But 424 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: Stephen had some very clear ideas about how to make 425 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: these things real. So he wanted someone to commit and 426 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: start over, and you shared credit with Yes. The problem 427 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: with Stephen is, you know, when I was thirteen years old, 428 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: Jaws came out and I had to ride my bike 429 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: to the Lake Theater and Milwaukee to watch it because 430 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: my parents wouldn't let me go. So from the years 431 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: when I was thirteen till I would say twenty was 432 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: Jaws Close and Owners, Raiders of the Lost rk et. 433 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: These are your formative, sponge like years. So for a 434 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: writer of my generation, it's Spielberg's it. So now to 435 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: write for him and to disagree with him and to 436 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: offer critical assessments of his ideas was really tough, and 437 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: I'm he was used to it, so I remember in 438 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: our first couple of meetings he went out of his 439 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: way to say things like, you know, well, when I'm 440 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: working with a peer like yourself, what I It was 441 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: obvious he was trying to tell me to relax. All 442 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: I had going for me was my opinions and if 443 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: I was going to come in and just pair it 444 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: his a certain amount of that. Sure, sure everybody likes it, 445 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: but you don't want a newtered collaborator. You want somebody 446 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: to come in who's going to have some ideas to 447 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: contribute and possibly resist some of yours that might not 448 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: be good. How did it go? It went fine. I 449 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: think it took me a few movies I've written for 450 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: his that he directed, and I think it took me 451 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: a few movies to get more into my stride on that. 452 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: There was one kind of clarifying moment was in the 453 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: second movie, A Lost World. There was a bit where 454 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: Jeff Goldman's adopted daughter as a gymnast, and Stephen wanted 455 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: a sequence later in the movie where she spins around 456 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: some bars and kicks a velociraptor and makes it fall over. 457 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: And I never liked it. I just I thought the 458 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: idea of the little girl kicking the velociraptor was bad 459 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: for her character and bad certainly bad for the velociraptor's character. 460 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: So I would just not write it and not write 461 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: it and not write it, hoping it would just go away. 462 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: You know. One day, the double golden rod pages had 463 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: gone in or something. We were shooting, and he said, hey, 464 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: I know you forgot again to do the velociraptor thing 465 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: on the bars. You gotta write that up because we're 466 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: when we shoot that, we're gonna blah blah blah blah blah. 467 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: And I said, well, Steven, I don't want to write that. 468 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna work. I'm afraid people will 469 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: laugh at it. It was as straightforward and negative about 470 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: it as I could possibly be. And he paused and 471 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: he said, oh, no, you other. No you shouldn't, no, no, no, no, 472 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: don't write absolutely, if you feel that strong, you should 473 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: not write it when I shoot it. What I'm gonna 474 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: do is I'm going to bring her right. And I 475 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: realized what you have to get about directors is they 476 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: must do what they see. You can't bend them to 477 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: your will. But what you've worked with so many great 478 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: really legendary directors, And I'm wondering, like, when you work 479 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: with Spielberg, Among his many gifts, what's the gift that 480 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: impressed you the most about him as a director? There's 481 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: as a director and as a storyteller. As a director, 482 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: his ability to compose on the fly. I've never ever 483 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: seen anything like it. As a storyteller. What I most 484 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: appreciate about Stephen is there's a real joyfulness and he 485 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: has no contempt for the audience. He is the person 486 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: in the audience with popcorn. So in your filmography, from 487 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: one legendary director to the next, you go from Crichton's 488 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: World of Dinosaurs to Machina was a Puerto Weecan crime 489 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: boss in New York. And I'll never forget the getting 490 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: a shot of that film, a great opening shot. He's 491 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: on the Guerney, the overhead shot that film with Brian Dipoma. 492 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: What was the Dipoma experience. Curlyto's Way was the first 493 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: of three movies Brian and I would do. And again, yes, 494 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 1: very very hands on, but Brian wants you to do 495 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: the writing. He's not there to do it himself, or 496 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: he do it himself. He's probably written about half the 497 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: movies he's directed, or more so, he is certainly there 498 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: for your viewpoint and wants to listen to you and 499 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: would like you to be right. What I found Brian 500 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: and Stephen both had in common. If there was a 501 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: shot they wanted to do or a sequence they wanted 502 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: to get to, and they saw it very clearly, and 503 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: they told it to me. They were really happy to 504 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: let me figure out how on earth is the story're 505 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: gonna accommodate this? How is that going to end up 506 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: in this movie? And I was happy with that because 507 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: then I got to go away and do the work. 508 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: You usually don't want someone to try to figure out 509 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: your problems for you. Tell me what the problem is, 510 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: tell me what the challenges Brian was There's just a 511 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: great sense of comradeship. You know you're really in it. 512 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: Brian's a lot of laughs. He's a very funny guy, clever. 513 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: He's very clever, and he I think probably of all 514 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 1: the directors I've ever worked with, Brian is the one 515 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: who listens the most. That doesn't mean he's going to 516 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: go along with whatever you have to say, but he's 517 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: genuinely listening when you're talking and processing and enjoys the debate, 518 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: and we'll tell you if you're wrong or why he 519 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: thinks you're wrong. What was the hardest one for you 520 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: to write? I did an Indiana Jones movie, and it 521 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: was just the weight of expectation of twenty years history, 522 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: thirty years of cultural expectation. And you know, everybody who's 523 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: seen those movies and loves those movies has a feeling 524 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: about what it ought to be. Steven's feelings about what 525 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: it ought to be, George lucas Is feelings which are 526 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: not always the same Harrison's. It was just it was 527 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: a crushing load of things to try to satisfy. It 528 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: would have been far easier to write the heartbreaking story 529 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: my parents divorce. Let's talk about directing. Whim May you 530 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: decide to take the ultimate leap? I think I should 531 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: direct the script. Actually I knew that writing is what 532 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: I love to do the most, is what gives me 533 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: the most satisfaction. Directing is what you do when you 534 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: have something that you would like to see the way 535 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: it is in your head, and for better or worse, 536 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: you have a far better chance of seeing it the 537 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: way it is in your head than you do. Working 538 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: with even a talented director. That doesn't mean it will 539 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: be better, but it means it will be yours, and 540 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: the mistakes that are made are yours. And I really 541 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: most wanted the chance to edit and to work directly 542 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: with actors. As a screenwriter, you're censoring yourself with actors 543 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: because you don't want to undercut the director. It's a 544 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: sort of sacred relationship they have and you don't want 545 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: to get in the middle of that. So you offer 546 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: your insights, but you can't say everything you'd like to say. 547 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: And when you started directing, that later on. But when 548 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: you began, what was your shortcoming? What was the thing 549 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: you needed the most work on. I remember a director 550 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: friend of mine, who is far too blunt but I 551 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: love him for it, occasionally said, when he saw my 552 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: first cut of it, he said, you shot your script. 553 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: I said, yeah, did you laprt? I love that you 554 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: didn't interpret your script. My god, you shot the script. 555 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: It's so you He said, no, he said, you didn't 556 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: interpret it. You shot it. Literally, everything everywhere of your 557 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: script is there. And that's great if that's what was 558 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: your intention, but it doesn't have you didn't take the 559 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: step away from writing and into directing. It because they're different, 560 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 1: and I didn't know for a couple of movies. Are 561 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: you going to direct another movie you're directing against soon? 562 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: I hope so I got you know, I got a 563 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: lot of writing to do at the moment. I just 564 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: finished another book and I have a few things, so 565 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: I would like to yet. I am your biggest fan. 566 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: I mean the breadth of your work, that the distinctive 567 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: styles of films, Carlado mission, all of them. Thanks for 568 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: doing this pleasure, David Kepp. His most recent work is 569 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: a film he wrote in erected You Should Have Left, 570 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: starring Kevin Bacon and Amanda Seyfried. It came out last year. 571 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: Walter Merch is a legendary film and sound editor. He 572 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: was part of the early days of American Zootrope, the 573 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: film production company founded by Francis Ford Coppola and George Lucas. 574 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: He is well known for his long partnership with Coppola 575 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: and later with the late Anthony Mingela. Walter Merch's most 576 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: recent project is a documentary he wrote and edited called 577 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: Kup fifty three, about a US and British led effort 578 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: to overthrow the Iranian government in nine. I met the 579 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: director Tuggy on Morani when I was editing another documentary, 580 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: Particle Fever, about the search for the Higgs boson at 581 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva. We hit it off 582 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: because Tuggy graduated in physics from Nottingham University and this 583 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: was particle physics. We just kept up a relationship and 584 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: I never thought i'd work on it. But I was 585 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: editing for Brad Bird on his film Tomorrow End, and 586 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: that came to an end, and I was at loose ends, 587 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: and my wife and Toggy put their heads together and said, 588 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: what Walter needs is to work on a little documentary 589 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: for six months. And it sounded good. It still is good, 590 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: but the six months has turned into six years. I 591 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: watched the film and it seems that almost the beginning 592 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: is like a preface. You linger with that guy, that's Taggy, 593 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: that's the director, Taggy Armarni, and you kind of stay 594 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: with him for quite a bit of time. It's about 595 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: half an hour, I mean half an hour in a 596 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: film comedy turny, but but but you with him, it's 597 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: almost like the film becomes a completely different film and 598 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: it takes off into the case if you will, well, 599 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: we were just following the structure of Psycho, which does 600 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: a similar trick. You know, you're with Marion Crane for 601 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: thirty five minutes and then she's gotten rid of dead 602 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: and you follow the rest of the story. I'm going 603 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: to quote you on that Psycho was the template for 604 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: fifty three. If Hitchcock could do it, so could we. 605 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: But it evolved organically. The film took off really from 606 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: the discovery of this transcript of the m I six agent, 607 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: and if we have the transcript, there must be tapes 608 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: or there must be a film that goes with it. 609 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: And it was the search for those missing ingredients that 610 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: we never found, but we found contradictory evidence. Some people 611 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: said they don't exist, some people say they do exist. 612 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: So the question that was a trail that we followed 613 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: for about fifteen minutes actually of searching for them, and 614 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: then at that point we said, we've reached the end 615 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: of the trail and we're going to ask Rathe Fines 616 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: to walk over them. I love that For those who 617 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: don't see it, Raith Fine creates this character, this real 618 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: this real person, and he inhabits that character. And what 619 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: a coup no pun intended for you to have Rafe 620 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: Finds part in your film. He's such a wonderful actor. 621 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: I met Rafe when we were doing English Patient back 622 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: in the middle nineties, and we kept up over the years, 623 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: and we came to this fork in the road, which is, 624 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: we have the transcript, but how are we going to 625 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,719 Speaker 1: turn it into cinema, And well, let's get an actor 626 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: to read the lines. Why don't we got Ray Finds 627 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: to be the actor, and then why don't we stage 628 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: it in the very same room at the Savoy Hotel, 629 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: And which all of these other interviews were done in 630 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: the mid eighties, which revealed the essence of what had 631 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: happened in this coup, which was a British American co production, 632 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: so to speak, and which successfully unfortunately deposed this name 633 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: democracy in Iran and spoiled for it. Ever since, history 634 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: is the wiser for what happened back then. Now to 635 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: wind it back in the origin story, you grew up 636 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: in New York and when you went to Hopkins, you 637 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: were going to go into into a scientific field, correctly, 638 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: oceanography and geology. Yeah, my interest in film didn't really 639 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: evolve until a couple of years later, and that dovetailed 640 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: with a teenage obsession which I've had with tape recording 641 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 1: and the manipulation of that tape, cutting it up into 642 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: little pieces is basically a simple kind of filming. So 643 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: that was where I kind of returned to my roots 644 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: in a sense that the passions that you have when 645 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: you're ten or eleven years old or somehow more fundamentally 646 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: who you are than before or after, because you know, 647 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: you know thing about the world, but you're not yet 648 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: infected with peer pressure in quite the same filtering. Yes, 649 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: you're less filtered. Yeah, Now when you're there at Hopkins, 650 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: you meet Deschanel when you're there, correct, and you guys 651 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: decided to head off together. He's a year younger than me, 652 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: so yeah. Matthew Robbins and I who I met at Hopkins. 653 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: We went off to USC Cinema as a graduate students, 654 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: and Caleb phoned us up a couple of months later 655 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: and said, how is it out there? And we said 656 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: it's great, come on out, and he did. He followed 657 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: us and immediately became known as a great cameraman. There 658 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: was something about his his knees that allowed him to 659 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: move with a camera with a kind of steadicam camera 660 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: before Steadicam was with the Human Steadicam. So you're out 661 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: there and you're at USC for two years, you're in 662 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: the graduate program, and what's the first thing you want 663 00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: to do when you're out there, Like you're at USC 664 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: in school for what you know? That's the lecture that 665 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: they give on the first day of school is we 666 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: know you all want to become directors, but we're going 667 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: to smash that dream immediately. You're going to have to 668 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: do everything and it's only at the end that you 669 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: will discover where your real talents lie. And even if 670 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: you've become a director, having experienced all these other crafts, 671 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: you'll know what it takes to be a good sound recorders. 672 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: When you finish at USC, what are you saying to yourself? 673 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: So I want to go do what I'm married about 674 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: to have a kid, and you just try to support job. Yeah, 675 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: So when you leave there and you've got to get 676 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: a job, what's your first job sweeping floors at Encyclopedia 677 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: Britannica Films. And I graduated there from sweeping floors to 678 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: editing one of their dotmentary films, and then I was 679 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: out of work and you trying to pick up gigs. 680 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: It's sort of the gig economy. Can you think a 681 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: d R lines? Yeah, I can do that, and then 682 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: I got all of it. You'd studied that you at 683 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: at USC. Yeah, you had that that background from us. 684 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: You know, you had to do everything so exactly whatever 685 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: they asked you to do, you would say yes, even 686 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: if even if you didn't know how to do it. 687 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: You said yes, I can do that, and then you 688 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: learn how to do it, and you meet Lucas before Coppola. Correct, well, 689 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 1: I met George. You knew Lucas in school. From school, Yeah, 690 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: Francis was a legend. He was four years older than 691 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: us at U C. L A. And he'd done this 692 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: hat trick, which is he not only got a job 693 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: directing a real film, but he handed it in for 694 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: his master's thesis. So the fact that somebody from film 695 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: school actually directed a film. Who who? Somebody who had 696 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: no connection with the film industry. Francis came out of 697 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: the blue, and he was an inspiration to us and 698 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,959 Speaker 1: George and I at school had been up for a 699 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: scholarship at Warner Brothers. George one naturally, because even back 700 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: then he was George Lucas and he wanted to be 701 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: an animation you know, he founded what later on became Pixar, 702 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: which his connection. But he arrived the day they shut 703 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: down the animation studio at Warner Brothers. So he just 704 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: wandered around and he saw somebody directing a film on 705 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: the lot. One person. The guy had a beard, George 706 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: had a beard. So beards connect with each other. And 707 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: it was Francis understand each other, Yeah, they understand each other, 708 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: and it was Francis and Francis said, Okay, George, come 709 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: up with a one good idea every day and I'll 710 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 1: shoot it. And George did. This was on the film 711 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: Finean's Rainbow, Fineans Ring. So George and Francis bonded and 712 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: one thing led to another, and I got a call 713 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,879 Speaker 1: from George in early nineteen sixty nine saying could I 714 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: cut the sound for the film that Francis had just directed, 715 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: The rain People. And that started my relationship with Francis, 716 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: which continues to this day. Then, assuming that once you 717 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: go to northern California and we'll get into the American 718 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 1: Zoo trope and Francis or a bit there, what was 719 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: the impetus state for you to move there? For you 720 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: to relocate there. Why did you do that again? George 721 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: and Francis they had were both they were both living 722 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: up there. Yeah, well they had been. They had shot 723 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: the rain People and ended up shooting the last four 724 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: weeks in Ogelona, Nebraska, operating out of an old Tom 725 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: McCann's shoe store that had gone out of business. And 726 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: at the end of it, they thought, wait a minute, 727 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: we've been making a motion picture out of an old 728 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: shoe store in the Aska. We don't have to be 729 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. We can be anywhere, you know, youthful idealism, 730 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: and that's when Francis decided to set up a studio 731 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: in San Francisco, which became trup Trump. What was it 732 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: about Coppola? You won an oscar for cutting his film? 733 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: What was it about him? You think was his gift? 734 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: The quote I love from him is when he was 735 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: shooting Cotton Club and the reporter asked him. They were 736 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: on location and things weren't going well, and the reporter said, well, 737 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: you're the director, why don't you just make it happen? 738 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: And he said, you misunderstand what a director of a 739 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: film is. The director of a film is the ringmaster. 740 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,439 Speaker 1: Of a circus that is inventing itself. So there's this 741 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: collaborative aspect to it that Francis holds everything together at 742 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: the same time, and it's always veering into chaos, but 743 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: chaos can be very productive if you can control it. 744 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: I mean. An example of his directorial essence, I think 745 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: is something that happened almost on the first day of 746 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: shooting The Godfather. And he had made a pact with 747 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: himself and with all of the actors that there was 748 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: to be very little motion of the hands with the Italians, 749 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: that he wanted things to be very sober and business like. 750 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: And he was shooting the baker coming to ask for 751 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: permission for his daughter to marry the prisoner of war 752 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: that was working in the bakery, shooting over Marlon Brando's shoulder, 753 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: and okay, take one, and the baker starts giving his 754 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: speech and the hands come up and the hands are 755 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: doing this incredible dance, and Francis later said his heart 756 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: sank because this is exactly what he didn't want. This 757 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: is like an alman for the whole film was going 758 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: to be things he didn't want. So what do you 759 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: do in that case? At the end of the take 760 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: he said, cut very good. In fact, the performance was 761 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 1: fine except for the hands. So he said Tom, meaning 762 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: Tom Hagen, Robert Duval, Tom, you would have already given 763 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: we need to do it again because I made a mistake. 764 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: Francis said, we're coming in in the middle of this scene, 765 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: and Tom Hagen would have already given you a glass 766 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: of brandy because he knows you would be nervous. So 767 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: Robert Duval came over and filled up a little glass 768 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: of brandy right to the brim, put it in the 769 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: actor's hands, and then said, that's okay action. So you know, 770 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna remember that the hands are moving, but you 771 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: can't spill the brandy. But they're they're not the over 772 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: gestural problem that happened with take one, So Francis said, 773 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: it's my fault, and so the actor. The performance on 774 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: the second take was even better because now the actor 775 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: was going to save Francis from francis mistake. So that's 776 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: the take that's in the movie. Oh my God. Oscar 777 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 1: winning sound and film editor Walter Merch. If you're enjoying 778 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow. 779 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: Here's the thing on the I Heart radio app Apple 780 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 781 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: Walter Merch talks about Francis Ford Coppola's controlled chaos style 782 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: of filmmaking. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. 783 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: In the early years of American zoo Trope, Walter Merch 784 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: was often juggling various projects between founders George Lucas and 785 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: Francis Ford Coppola. We were making Tight while Francis was 786 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: shooting The Godfather, and when we finished d h X, 787 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 1: we took it to con It played on the kind 788 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: of the anti festival there, and then I came back 789 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 1: to work on the sound of the post production sound 790 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: of The Godfather, the mix the sound effects in the mix. 791 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: Did you kind of have a sense when you were 792 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: doing that, because when you're doing the sound, you're given 793 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: a final cut of the film to mix the sound 794 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: and the film is locked correctly. No, it was. It 795 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: was evolving as we were working on it. That's part 796 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: of the Zootrope aesthetic is that the sound influences the editing, 797 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: and the editing influences the sound. Is that common? Is 798 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 1: that ordinary? No? Certainly not back then, but it's part 799 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: of this controlled chaos idea that it's risky, but we 800 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 1: felt it was worth the risk. Well, I want to 801 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: get to the controlled chaos, and we talked about apocalypse. 802 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: But what I want to also ask you is you're 803 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: the first person to win an Oscar for a film 804 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: cut on an Avid correct. Yes, and you are one 805 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: of the only people to be nominated and or win 806 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: Oscars on multiple platforms. I think you've been nominated and 807 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: you've won Academy Awards on like four different iterations of 808 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: editing equipment. Correct right, Yes, true. Films are edited now 809 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: so much quicker than they were forty years ago. Do 810 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 1: you feel that something's lost as a result of that. 811 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: I think the amount of time has remained essentially the same. 812 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: What's changed is that as you edit it, you can 813 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: investigate lots of different ways. But the distance from the 814 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: end of shooting too, when the films are in the theaters, 815 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: that's pretty constant. That it's about a year from the 816 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: beginning of shooting to the film in the theater, whether 817 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: you're editing on a digital platform or not. If you 818 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: really want to edit fast, if that's the only goal, yes, 819 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: you can do it faster now using digital tool, But 820 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: that's not the only requirement. We want to make a 821 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: good film, and to make a good film, you have 822 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: to take the time, and that's the creative time is 823 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: the determinament on this Now. I just want to have 824 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: a quick glance at Apocalypse when he first contacted you, like, 825 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 1: how did you get involved in that film? How would 826 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: you describe because Apocalypse is always presented even from his 827 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: wife's documentary, eleanor that it was this chaotic experience. What 828 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: is your recollection of the making of Apocalypse? It was it? 829 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: Like for you? It was crazy. I was editing the 830 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: film Julia in London and I got a call from 831 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: Francis can you fly to the Philippines to discuss the 832 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: final mix? Sure, so a trip was arranged over the 833 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: weekend to fly from London to Manila and then to 834 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: the location. And people were coming from all over the world. Tomita, 835 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: who was going to do the music for the film, 836 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 1: was coming from Japan, and Richard Begs Richie Marks were 837 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: coming from San Francisco. So it was a big meeting 838 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: that was planned. But that was right after Marty Sheen 839 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: had his heart attack. So we all arrived and everything 840 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 1: was in this wonderful chaos, you know, but we had 841 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: the meeting. I mean, this is another example of Francis's determination. 842 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: His main actor has had a heart attack and he 843 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: is now hosting a meeting to discuss the technicalities of 844 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,320 Speaker 1: a mix that won't happen for an ultimately for another 845 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: two years. That was where the idea of inventing a 846 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: totally new format for this film was born. How long 847 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: have they been shooting when you showed up almost a year? 848 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,919 Speaker 1: Are they done shooting or they're getting close to being done? 849 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,720 Speaker 1: There are three months away from the end of shooting, 850 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: which is the normal schedule for film. His three months 851 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 1: there in the final thing that that says it all. 852 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: We're in the final three months of shooting, two and 853 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: fifty six days of shooting. Had you been looking at 854 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: footage prior to that? There was a typhoon, speaking of 855 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: chaos in the summer of seventies six. Francis had been 856 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,440 Speaker 1: shooting for perhaps four months, and the typhoon destroyed all 857 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: the sets, so production was shut down. Francis came back 858 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: to San Francisco and we had a meeting. He showed 859 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 1: me what he had shot up until then, and he said, 860 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: is there anything missing, And I thought, well, there's a 861 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: scene missing I think, which is it would be good 862 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 1: to have a scene where the boat does what it's 863 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: supposed to do as it goes up river. This is 864 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: a patrol boat that is supposed to stop contraband material 865 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,919 Speaker 1: from getting down river. So let's write a scene where 866 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: the boat does a police action and something goes bad 867 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: and people get killed, and they kill the family in 868 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,320 Speaker 1: the boat. Right, And he said, okay, right, that scene 869 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 1: and we'll do it. So I sat down and wrote 870 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: the Sampan massacre scene, and the Francis took it back 871 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,360 Speaker 1: to the Philippines and you know, obviously changed it and 872 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: actors do what actors do. But essentially, the idea of 873 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: that scene was something that occurred to me from reading 874 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: and looking at the material of things that have been 875 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: shot up to that point. Now you cut the film, 876 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: you edited the film. Well, I mean, that's another story. 877 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: I was hired just to do the sound because when 878 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: I joined the film it was August seventy seven, and 879 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,880 Speaker 1: the idea was somehow improbably that the film would be 880 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: in the theaters by Christmas, And you know what, did 881 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: I know, maybe maybe it's possible, but it was pretty 882 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 1: clear to me at that point that this was not 883 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: going to happen. And that's when I joined the editorial team. 884 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,840 Speaker 1: There were two editors working on the film at that time. 885 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,919 Speaker 1: I became the third editor on the film. Now, when 886 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,120 Speaker 1: have there been moments where you fought for a cut 887 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: and you were right either to lift out or preserve something, 888 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: and you fought for a cut and the director you 889 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:14,280 Speaker 1: were wrong and they were right. Before I answered that question, 890 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: we were doing eight final a d R with Marlon 891 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: Brando on The Godfather and we got about halfway through 892 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,879 Speaker 1: the film and Francis said, well, I gotta go now, 893 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: so you guys continue. So I was whatever, I was, 894 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: twenty six years old, and here I am in the 895 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,600 Speaker 1: dark alone with Marlon Brando supposedly directing him in a 896 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: d R. And they're changing reels and in the dark, 897 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: I hear this voice that says, people say I mumble. 898 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: I thought, what am I going to say to Marlon 899 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,840 Speaker 1: Brando about that? I said, yes, that's true. People do 900 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: say that you mumble. And he said, well they're right. 901 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,439 Speaker 1: I do mumble, and I'll tell you why. Because when 902 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,959 Speaker 1: we shoot the films, I don't know what these scenes 903 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: are going to be in the film or out of 904 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,600 Speaker 1: the film. I don't know what order the scenes are 905 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,959 Speaker 1: going to be in. So when I'm doing the scenes, 906 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: I don't move my lips very much so that if 907 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,799 Speaker 1: it comes to it, we can change the dialogue, I 908 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:19,359 Speaker 1: can change my performance and nobody I never thought of that. 909 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,479 Speaker 1: Oh my god, in my mind, you couldn't think about 910 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: it in terms of what drove the story. It was 911 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: all about behavior and and and performance. Correct, Yeah, yeah, 912 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,919 Speaker 1: I have to say at that point in the film 913 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,040 Speaker 1: there were two editors, and I was editing the first 914 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: half of the film up to and including the Sampan massacre, 915 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: and Richie Marks was handling everything after that, so I 916 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,720 Speaker 1: was an observer to what they were doing, but I 917 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,879 Speaker 1: didn't know all of the ins and outs of that. 918 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the famous should we cut this scene in 919 00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,080 Speaker 1: that film is the French plantation scene, which was a 920 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,960 Speaker 1: huge restored for the Redux, A hugely huge operation, the 921 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:09,839 Speaker 1: very expensive, very detailed set, lots of characters, and as 922 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: we were editing the film, the scene shrink and its 923 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,640 Speaker 1: strength and its strength until I think in the end, 924 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: just before it completely disappeared. There were maybe two or 925 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: three shots from it. It was like a kind of 926 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 1: a mist of a scene. It was just some images 927 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:29,920 Speaker 1: and you didn't know what to make of them, and 928 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,319 Speaker 1: then finally it disappeared completely. We put it back in 929 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: Apocalypse Redus. In fact, putting that scene back was the 930 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: whole reason for doing the reducts the French Canal Plus 931 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:48,320 Speaker 1: people wanted a DVD extra because Christian Marcon, the actor 932 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,920 Speaker 1: in that scene, had just died and they wanted to 933 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: see him. And then as these things happened, one thing 934 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,520 Speaker 1: led to another, and it became this huge operation of 935 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: rehabilitating an umber of scenes that had been cut out. 936 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,760 Speaker 1: But the scene essentially comes too late in the film 937 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: for you to know how to take it digest it. 938 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,880 Speaker 1: So you directed one film, returned to OZ and it 939 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,200 Speaker 1: was a disappointing experience for you from what I read. 940 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: What was your feeling about directing again after that experience? No, 941 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 1: I mean after it was finished. You know, there's inevitably 942 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,759 Speaker 1: a period of recovery on any film, and then I 943 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,760 Speaker 1: tried to get a couple of other projects off the ground. 944 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: So you wanted to direct again after? Yeah? But no, 945 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,359 Speaker 1: I have four kids, and there's the old joke, you know, 946 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: how do you spell directing? W A I T I 947 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: n G that when you're directing trying to get something 948 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,799 Speaker 1: off the ground, there's a lot of downtime unless you're 949 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: completely established. Director Returned to Oz was a financial failure 950 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 1: and critically extremely mixed results. It's a wonderful film, by 951 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: the way, it just didn't happen. I directed one film, 952 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: and I had the resources to make a wonderful film. 953 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 1: I had a great script, had a great cast. What 954 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: I learned about directing was that patients you need to 955 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,799 Speaker 1: help see everything. You're You're being asked about everything, and 956 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: for me, the patients to stand there all day long, 957 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: because when you're an actor, you go back to your 958 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 1: trailer and you go read a magazine. And with the director, 959 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: you can't hide in your trailer. You've got to be 960 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,680 Speaker 1: there and you've got to answer the questions and you're 961 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: in charge, so to speak. And I found I didn't 962 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 1: have the patients to direct other actors to tell the 963 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 1: cinematographer no, no, put the camera here. I wanted here. 964 00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: And I just didn't have the patients to negotiate with 965 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 1: all those people, you know what I mean. Wonderful quote 966 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,600 Speaker 1: from Warren Beauty who also is an actor director, and 967 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,239 Speaker 1: he said, the key to acting is to be in 968 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: control of being out of control. The key to directing 969 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: is to be out of control of being in control. 970 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: And that's the thing that drives you crazy when you 971 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,480 Speaker 1: go in front of the camera and then go behind 972 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,359 Speaker 1: the camera. Is the alternating between you know, searing heat 973 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: on the one side and ice on the other. So 974 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,799 Speaker 1: you also have to be in the moment, which is 975 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,239 Speaker 1: what's you're shooting right now, but you also have to 976 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: live in the past, meaning taking to generation everything that 977 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: you've shot up to now, and you have to live 978 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: in the future, which is, what are we going to 979 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,520 Speaker 1: do tomorrow? What are we gonna do next week? So 980 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: it's a highly uncomfortable state of being unless you're completely 981 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,120 Speaker 1: adapted to it, I think, And that's why you become 982 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,359 Speaker 1: a director. When you're a combat age, which is to say, 983 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, twenty years old, then it kind of becomes 984 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,040 Speaker 1: part of who you are. That wasn't the case where 985 00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,799 Speaker 1: I was. I was forty when I directed returned to 986 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 1: OZ and in a sense I knew too much. I 987 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,879 Speaker 1: was already to set in my ways a certain thing, 988 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,080 Speaker 1: and I was I had to learn how to undo 989 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: some of those assumptions. I'm assuming you have some thoughts 990 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,840 Speaker 1: about how the COVID has affected the way we shoot 991 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,759 Speaker 1: and exhibit films as well. Does that trouble you? Well 992 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 1: that that's actually it helped us in a weird way 993 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,520 Speaker 1: with KU fifty three because we had a great premiere 994 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,080 Speaker 1: of the film at Tell You Rode and London, but 995 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: no distributor would pick it up. It's there's some kind 996 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 1: of third rail aspect of the film that makes distributors 997 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: I don't want it's still unseld today. You haven't seld 998 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: it yet. No, no, So we're distributing it ourselves, and 999 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,919 Speaker 1: we're doing it through v o D and we're doing 1000 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 1: it in a cooperation with Arthouse Theater. So so so 1001 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:39,479 Speaker 1: where would people go to see the film? How would 1002 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,919 Speaker 1: they see the film? You go to KU fifty three 1003 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: dot com and say what country are you in? You know, 1004 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: United States, UK, Ireland or Canada at the present moment, 1005 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,360 Speaker 1: and then select a theater and you click on that theater. 1006 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: It's twelve bucks is the ticket? We split fifty fifty 1007 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 1: And it's how that's how it works. But without COVID, 1008 00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have gotten the momentum that it got because 1009 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,759 Speaker 1: of all the closing of the theaters and thank god, 1010 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, thank god you benefited from that. Yeah, in 1011 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: a weird way, we benefited from it. How would you 1012 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,840 Speaker 1: say the methodology by which you choose which films you're 1013 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: going to do? How has that changed over the years. 1014 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,080 Speaker 1: It's three things, and it's always remained the same. It's 1015 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 1: the script. I like a script that I can connect with, 1016 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: but that moves me out of my comfort zone because 1017 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to just keep doing the same thing 1018 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,640 Speaker 1: over and over again. Are there the resources to pull 1019 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,960 Speaker 1: this off? And who am I going to be working with? 1020 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: You know, as an editor, you are in a room 1021 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: with the director for the better part of a year ultimately, 1022 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,400 Speaker 1: so it's an intense thing and you have to get along. 1023 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 1: So those are the three categories. If all three of 1024 00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,280 Speaker 1: those are in place, then oh it's rare that you 1025 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,680 Speaker 1: get all three cleanly. You You usually have to make 1026 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,160 Speaker 1: an educated guess. I've got two out of three. Okay, 1027 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: I'll make a bet. The film Tomorrow Land I was 1028 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 1: working with Brad Bird, and they obviously had the resources 1029 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: because it was a hundred and eighty million dollar film. 1030 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: Or something with Disney, But I never got to read 1031 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,160 Speaker 1: the script before we started shooting. He was working on 1032 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,280 Speaker 1: the script and finally I was on location in Vancouver 1033 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,080 Speaker 1: two weeks before shooting, and finally the script arrived. So 1034 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,640 Speaker 1: you can never tell exactly how things are going to 1035 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,080 Speaker 1: work out. Is it safe to say that to the 1036 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,439 Speaker 1: extent that any one of the characters you've mixed that 1037 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,720 Speaker 1: you are? That character is the little boy who's cutting 1038 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,560 Speaker 1: the tape together? Is Hackman in the conversation? Is that you? Yeah? 1039 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,919 Speaker 1: I think that probably would you know. That's ultimately why 1040 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 1: Francis asked me to edit the film. He said, it's 1041 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: a film about a sound man, and you're a sound 1042 00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: man and you've edited films. So no, that was my 1043 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,800 Speaker 1: first editing job on a feature film because of that 1044 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,720 Speaker 1: feeling of identity. Listen, I'm a great admirer of yours. 1045 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: You you've made a lot of great movies. You've made 1046 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,919 Speaker 1: a lot of great movies, and you've been a part 1047 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: of movie history. You know, it's really exciting, and thank 1048 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,520 Speaker 1: you so much for doing this with us, and good 1049 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 1: luck with the film. My pleasure. Thank you. Oscar winning 1050 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,280 Speaker 1: sound and film editor Walter Merch my thanks to him 1051 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 1: and to screenwriter director David Kepp. I'm Alec Baldwin and 1052 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,000 Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 1053 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,920 Speaker 1: Carrie donohue and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 1054 00:59:42,360 --> 01:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. That's if trying to come