1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minke. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Dr Drew Gray is a historian of the eighteenth and 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: nineteen centuries who teaches at the University of Northampton, where 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: he's the subject lead for History. He's our guest for 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: this episode. You won't be surprised to hear that he 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: also specializes in the history of crime and punishment. His 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: books on Jack the Ripper include London's Shadows, The Dark 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Side of the Victorian City and Jack in the Thames 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Torso Murders a New Ripper Those hit the shelves, alongside 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: big projects like his book Crime, Policing and Punishment in 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: England from sixteen sixty to nineteen fourteen. You can also 12 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: find his writing on his blog The Police Magistrate, which 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: tells dramatic stories from England's history of summary justice. Dr 14 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: Gray is a Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: He has been a member of the editorial Board of 16 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: The London Journal since two thousand eleven and is a 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Recently, Dr Drew has 18 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: been publishing articles on the myths and legends around Jack 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: the b and how historians would benefit from paying more 20 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: attention to the murderers in Victorian Whitechapel. You could say 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: that he's been doing a little un obscuring of his own, 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: and we're delighted to have him on the show. We 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: begin with his thoughts on Jack the Ripper as a myth, 24 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: as someone who never ever existed, and then move on 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: from there. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season three. 26 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: I'm erin Minky. Well, if I could start by saying 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: something probably signly controversial, which is to say, there's there's 28 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: no such person as Jack the Ripper. He never existed. 29 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: Of course, there was a serial killer or possibly serial killers, 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: and that person was responsible for the murder of several 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: very poor and vulnerable women. But the monster that's come 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 1: down to us as Jack the Ripper is in many 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: ways an invention of popular print culture and then subsequently 34 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: a century or more of how it's a sluicing and 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: reculation about the killer. So Jack is a sort of 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: dark fantasy figure that was created in and has developed 37 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: ever since, and in doing so has taken on the 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: aspects of each succeeding generation that's looked at him. I'm 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: not unlike in some respects the way in which Sherlock 40 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: Holmes has been reimagined to suit the age in which 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: he inhabits. So since we don't know who Jack was, 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: we can continue to continue to offer up suspects that 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: reflects our own fears and our own prejudices, the things 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: that bother us in our own in our own ages. 45 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: And this process starts right at the beginning of the case, 46 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: in the autumn of when the murderers first thought of 47 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: to be possibly a sort of top hatted top a 48 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: slumming Burlington bertie, or a psychotic doctor carrying a gladstone 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: bag full of sharp knives, or perhaps even a crazy 50 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: immigrant do an anarchist revolutionary bent on destroying English society. 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: And then when you throw in dark alleyways covered in 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,839 Speaker 1: fog from which a murderer can sort of emerge raith 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: like clutching a knife and then vanished just as easily, 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: leaving the police behind looking baffled, you've got the kind 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: of perfect recipe for a Gothic horror story. And the 56 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: fact that this bears very little resemblance to the truth 57 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: is kind of immaterial. The industry that's grown from the 58 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: murder of these women is the reality that most people 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: today understand. Another observation that you make in that same book, 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: London's Shadows, is that most of what we know about 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: the reality of life in London in the eighties is 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: filtered through the middle class sensibilities of the time. How 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: would you describe those sensibilities and the way that they 64 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: shaped then and shaped now what we can know about 65 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: that moment in the city's history. Maybe you know, in 66 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: Britain's history, what kinds of documents do we have that 67 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: guide us through the details of what was happening in 68 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: the East End, or or the murders themselves. How do 69 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: we get at that? Well, of course, it's extremely difficult 70 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: before our century, or the twentieth century perhaps to know 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: at all what people thought about the world around them. 72 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: Especially it's especially true for what you might call ordinary 73 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: working class people. Even if people could read and write, 74 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: which is very far from universal in the eighties, not 75 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: many of them would have at the time to do so, 76 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: all the money to spare on ink and paper to 77 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: write them, So working class memories of life in the 78 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: Victorian period are extremely rare. Instead, we have examples of 79 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: popular culture, so musical song things like my old man, 80 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: My old Man's a dustman, for example, which provide the 81 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: plimpses of now folk understood their society at the time, 82 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: kind of coming down to through song and music, hall 83 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: and jokes and that kind of thing. Um. But that's 84 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: very little from working class people. Instead, historians have had 85 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: to make do with the diaries and writings of the 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: middle class um and the elite um. So I'm kind 87 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: of thinking of men like William instead that the newspaper 88 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: editor or authors like George Sims or Andrew Mens, or 89 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: social investigators and reformers like Charles Booth or Beatrice Webb. 90 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: And of course these people mostly from the middle classes 91 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: right as as to some extent, we all do from 92 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: their own perspective, and so this history is kind of 93 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: naturally imbued with their own prejudices and their own moral compass, 94 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: which was quite different, of course from the way in 95 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: which working class people understood their lives. And in terms 96 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: of documentation about White Chapel and the White Chapel murders, 97 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: we've got very little, you know. I always think that 98 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: it's a it's a truism that people in the past 99 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: don't really think about the needs of researchers in the 100 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: future when they're keeping or not keeping documentation. Most of 101 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: what we do have is kept well. Most of what 102 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: we do have in the public realm is kept at 103 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: the National Archives, a que in in the south of 104 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: the River in London, in a couple of police files, 105 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: and this is actually rather disappointing when you actually get 106 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: to look at it. There are some case papers, but 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: these are pretty thin. There are some photos of the 108 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: victims which are widely known now and they're all over 109 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: the Internet. And a lot of letters sent to the 110 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: police impressed during and after the summer and autumn um 111 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: In addition, we have the reports of coroner's inquests and 112 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: our commentary on the police investigation through the pages of 113 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: the newspapers, and over the decades have passed, various pieces 114 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: of evidence have emerged um like, for example, the Maybrick Diary, 115 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: which have been hotly disputed, or the Little Child letter 116 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: which these bits and pieces have provided more angles for 117 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: researchers to hang their speculations on what not necessarily much 118 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: illumination into the case itself. And I think most researchers 119 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: will agree that we've probably lost as much evidence over 120 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: the years as we've found, and there's so that we're 121 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: left with very little that a modern detective force could 122 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: use to identify the killer in terms of the history 123 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: of White Chapel in the East End, in terms of 124 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: that sort of documentation, we have census records which are interesting. 125 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: We have street directories which tell us quite quite a bit, 126 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: and we have Charles Boo's fantastic maps of London in 127 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century which indicate the areas of poverty 128 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: and relative wealth, but of course not really very much 129 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: survived because again, what why would you keep that kind 130 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: of stuff? That stuff we want to find out about 131 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: ordinary people's lives. They just don't generate those records unless 132 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: they're appearing something, for example, like a court case. Mhmm. Yeah. 133 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: And and speaking of of court cases and and settings 134 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: where where documents are generated. Um, you mentioned that your 135 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: your focused as a historian is on crime, and you've 136 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: done a lot of work on Victorian police courts and 137 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: published regularly on the Police Magistrate blog, which is full 138 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: of fascinating stories. Um. Can you describe Victorian police courts 139 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: and the role that they played in the US, The 140 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: system of the weight eight Yeah, the the the Victorian 141 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: police court and the Victorian police court magistrates that presided 142 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: in these courts is part of a long tradition of 143 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: summary justice in England which has a very long history, 144 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: and that's kind of been the focus of most of 145 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: my career um since I started in academia. And so 146 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: of course, whe do you think it's quite it' quite 147 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: difficul to say a little when you can settle for 148 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: um the police court. A police court magistrate presided over 149 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: a whole range of different sorts of um cases throughout 150 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. They were they were appointed as men 151 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: with who had at least seven years of experience of 152 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: practicing law and they sat in rotation in a series 153 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: of courts. So there were there were police magistrates courts 154 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: from the late eighteenth century from on was a little 155 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: bit earlier for places like both streets and they covered 156 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: most of the metropolis. So there were places at Westminster 157 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: and Great Marble Street and Queens Square, there was a 158 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: couple in the East Standard Worship Street and Thames Um. 159 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: There was police courts in in Southbok and Lambeth, and 160 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: then later in the century they moved out to the suburbs, 161 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: like places like Highgate for example, so so you could 162 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: see a magistrate right across the city and there were 163 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: In addition, of course, there were two magistrates courts in 164 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: the city of London itself, which is a separate authority, 165 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: as a separate urban authority, it is not it's not 166 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: under the same government as the rest of the metropolis. 167 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: And these police court magistrates sat alone, which which made 168 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: them unique in England, where most magistrates would sit in 169 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: pairs or threes, but in London they had extra powers. 170 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: They were advised by a clerk, but otherwise they make 171 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: decisions on whether to send someone to prison to find 172 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: them or or to send them on for a trial 173 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: for a jury entirely on their own, so there's no 174 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: jury in these trials. They sit at the bottom, if 175 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: you like, of the criminal justice system, below the the 176 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: quarter sessions and then the assize or the old baby 177 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: court and police court magistrates would have dealt with all 178 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: sorts of crime, but also a lot of social problems. 179 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: So they would deal with a tremendous amount of drunken 180 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: disorderly behavior, but also petty theft, some quite serious theft 181 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: like burglary and fraud, right through two cases of domestic 182 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: violence assorts on the police and murder. They if it 183 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: came to an arder, they wouldn't be convicting somebody of murder, 184 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: but they will be pushing them up through the criminal 185 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: justice system. So this this is a place of first 186 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: first hearing, so it's where some of the facts of 187 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: cases are established before they then sent on up through 188 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system. But these courts are also the 189 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: first port of call for those complaining about all sorts 190 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: of things that bothered them in Victorian London. So people 191 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: being overcharged by cab drivers, policemen bringing cost costomongers bringing 192 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: in market traders for obstructing the streets, or for the 193 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: very poor in London who are requesting help. Um this 194 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: is where you'll find people accused of committing suicide or 195 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: attempted suicide, escaped lunatics, dangerous dogs. All these sorts of 196 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: things will come before the police courts. So there are 197 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: fantastic wind into the Victorian um capital. Unfortunately, going back 198 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: to the problem of documentation in the past, these courts 199 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: leave us very little in the way of archival material. 200 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: Most of the records are lost if they were ever 201 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: kept for very long. There are a small smattering of 202 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: cases of case books from the Thames Court, but but 203 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: not much else outside of Bow Streets. But we do 204 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: have newspaper reports because the newspapers daily reported on the 205 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: cases that came for the police courts, because I think 206 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: their readers were ready interested in looking at life through 207 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: this this particular lens. M Turning now a little toward 208 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: the East End. You've also written that it's a place 209 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: that had a diverse culture. You say, many places of worship, entertainment, trade, 210 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: a long history. Um. But that after a eight everyone 211 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: in the world new where White Chapel was. But at 212 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: the same time the Ripper murders obscured the reality of 213 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: that part of London. So if the murders didn't actually 214 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: define White Chapel and you know, hide what life was 215 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: actually like thereby be by growing beyond the you know, 216 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: the do of those events, how could the East End 217 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: at the time be more justly described, you know, with 218 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: with your historians eyes looking back beyond those obscuring events, 219 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: How do we describe the East End of London at 220 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: this time? I think it of course, with everything becomes 221 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: sort of mired in in representations from the period. I 222 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: always trying to imagine that I'm going back in time 223 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: and I'm stepping out onto the rather dirty streets of 224 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: London in the nineteenth century. But I would describe the 225 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: East End is a multicultural melting pot, a kind of 226 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: vibrant community of people struggling to vibe in a in 227 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: a society, of course, which generally failed to support those 228 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: that fell on on hard times. So I see a 229 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: series of communities, not not one community, but several communities 230 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: known and not always seeing eye to eye, where kind 231 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: of new immigrants mingled with established ones and native east 232 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: Enders for want of a better word, rubbed shoulders with 233 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: new arrivals, and with slumming tourists, you know, wealthier people 234 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: coming into the area to kind of gorput what they 235 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: could see. I see White Chapel is somewhere where poverty 236 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: was endemic, but at the same time there's an entrepreneurial 237 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:49,119 Speaker 1: spirit kind of everywhere. So words I'd used to describe 238 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: White Chapel in the would be bold, with brassy, sometimes shocking, 239 00:15:54,920 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: often funny, amusing, always lively and exciting and and ever changing. 240 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: And I'd probably go further and say that that's actually 241 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: how I see the East End, That East End and 242 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: short ditch and white chaplains, Pittel Fields in twenty one 243 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: century Britain. It's very much that kind of exciting, exciting 244 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: place to be. The first place my mind went when 245 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: I read that passage that you'd written was those those maps. 246 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: There's Charles Booth maps that you mentioned where there there 247 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: you said, you know, there's the color coding and for 248 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: showing different levels of of wealth, of class, of success. 249 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: You know, so there's a the markings for very deep 250 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: poverty and they're marked in black. And with that stereotype 251 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: about the East End, I go to look at the map, 252 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: but it's really a mix it's not there are these 253 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: pockets where he's marked in black, you know, desperate poverty. 254 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,359 Speaker 1: But you mentioned the entrepreneurial spirit and these different communities 255 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: kind of shoulder to shoulder, kind of jostled up together, 256 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: and I see even in terms of class, there are 257 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: some very very wealthy neighborhoods in the East End as 258 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: well as some of the very poor. So even in 259 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: the documents that we do have from the time Mike 260 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: Charles Booth's maps, you can see that kind of the 261 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: mixing and people shoulder to shoulder who are living quite 262 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: different lives from each other, even in the same neighborhood. Um, 263 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: when what were the contrasts between East and West London 264 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: as victorians imagined them in the eighteen eighties. How for 265 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: how fair were the kinds of generalizations maybe that they 266 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: had about each other. Mhmm, yeah, I think yeah. I 267 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: mean the all all of what you've just said about 268 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: the about Boothes is stuff I would certainly point to. 269 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean the West End, or in popular parliance, the 270 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: best in was to the wealthy. It was a playground 271 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: for those who had money, and of course it was 272 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: a magnet for people who wanted to work. So plenty 273 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: of East London has worked in the West End, worked 274 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: in the shops and the pubs and the clubs, and 275 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: the and came over, you know, the women came over 276 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: sometimes to act as prostitutes and escorts in that part 277 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: of town. And this is where the shops and the 278 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: clubs and the theaters of Victoria and London were. Um, 279 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, this is where you'd find the elegant streets 280 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: and the squares around Bloomsbury, And this is this is 281 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: what looked like the capital of the greatest Empire of 282 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: the world had ever seen, all of it, beautifully lit 283 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: and well served by transport networks. If you contrast that 284 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: with the East End of London, um, this is poor, dark, 285 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: overcrowded and largely degraded. Um. So, as I've I've said before, 286 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: the while the West End was affluent, the East End 287 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: was affluent, kind of strich stinking in the noses of 288 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: those that visited it. And that's the image we have 289 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: of the contrast between the East and West ends of 290 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: London in nineteenth century, and it's probably the image that 291 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: most Londoners would have had, certainly most West Londoners and 292 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: people from outside the capital. How fair was this? Well, 293 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: the East End was poor, it was overcrowded, and it 294 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: was home to those dirty trades that were necessary, such 295 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: as slaughtering and tanning. Those industries has always been placed 296 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: in the east of the capital, and that that goes 297 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: right back in history. But Charles Boo's Great Survey of Poverty, 298 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: his mapping of London, reveals that there were certainly more 299 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: areas of wealth and prosperity in the West End than 300 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: in the East End. But the East End wasn't entirely 301 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: riddled with poverty so rare. It's for commercial and well 302 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: to do streets mingle with black and dark blue areas 303 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: which denote poverty and criminality. Um, and you will find 304 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: pockets of deprivation across the capital right in what in 305 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: West London as well. So the contrast is a useful 306 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: starting point. But London was a very mixed city in 307 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds and poverty and wealth often lived cheap 308 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: by jiles side by side. That remains the case about 309 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: London in a way that it's not true of some 310 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: of some other European cities like Paris in the nineteenth 311 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: century or or today, which which kept the wealthy and 312 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: poorer areas much better, um, separated mhm. Can you describe 313 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: the role of journalism, like like the Median Tribute of 314 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: Modern babylone series that was published I believe in eight five, Um, 315 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: how the journalism that was being published in the eighties 316 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: helped to kind of create that imaginative geography, you know, 317 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: the stereotypes of the East End. Mm hmm, Well, I 318 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: think I mean. One thing we have to remember, of course, 319 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: is that most people were certainly most middle class people, 320 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: even middle class people in London, and these were the 321 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: people that read most of the newspapers rarely ventured into 322 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: the East End or any of London's other poorer areas. 323 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: It's like St. Giles or the Borough in southern and 324 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: they just didn't go there. Instead, they learned about those 325 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: areas through the newspapers they read, and papers gave them 326 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: a partial and a biased view of those areas. Not 327 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: unlike the way in which Darkest Africa was described by 328 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: the missionaries who went there to you know, loosely use 329 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: the term civilized it in the nineteenth century, so colorful 330 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: descriptions of the East End, you know, featuring the strange 331 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: people that lived there, There weird customs, there smeeady foods, 332 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: and the clothes that they wore. We're all printed in 333 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: ways that was similar to the descriptions offered of far 334 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: away in exotic lands in India and China and in Africa, 335 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: all the parts of the all the parts touched by 336 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: the British Empire MHM, and people like William Stead, who 337 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: pioneered what what we could probably call who pioneered what's 338 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: been termed new journalism, recognized the power that the media 339 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: had to affect change as well as turning a profit. 340 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: By saying newspapers. Steadies a very modern journalist and newspaper editor, 341 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: and he'd fit right in to our modern media circus. 342 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: So sensational articles like his made in Tribute of Modern 343 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: Babylon or or Andrew mens Is a bitter Cry of 344 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: outclass London, which stead also published, were intended to both 345 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: shock and titillate the readers. Since most most people have 346 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: no first hand experience of the way that the poor lived, 347 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: the articles that they read in the pages of Organs 348 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: like the Powerma Gazette would have shocked and concerned them 349 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: and helped to sort of create this vision of um 350 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: the East End and other parts of London which whilst 351 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: having germs of truth in them, it's not to say 352 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: that these things weren't true, but they come to dominate 353 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: all the narratives. But it's it's rather like I would say, 354 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: until people started to travel in the sort of seventies 355 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: onwards to other parts of the world, including the United States, 356 00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: people got their ideas about other countries through television, so 357 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, we all have and you know, I grew 358 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: up having an idea of nineteen seventies and nine eighties 359 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: Americas and I've never been there, and would you like, 360 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, your prime time television to be the accurate 361 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: portrayal of you know, American life. And you know it's 362 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: I guess it's a similar to the Americans watching Downton 363 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: Appe and thinking that's how English people live. Popular culture 364 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: presents us with an image which isn't necessarily true. Yeah. Yeah, 365 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: last night I watched since in Sensibility film with my wife, 366 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, And I watched Perry Mason. There 367 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: we Go, the New One or or or City of Angels. 368 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: I think that's the only thing I'm watching at a moment. 369 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: So you know, I know all about America in the 370 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties thirties because I watched for Walk Empire and 371 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: all these kind of HBO, big budget things, so I 372 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: know exactly what it's like over there. Ye. Well, and 373 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: there's another Booth, William Booth, who's working in White Chapel 374 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties. So at the same time that 375 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: that Charles Booth is producing his maps and that these 376 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: journalists are writing stories, there are people who are motivated 377 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: to take action. And William Booth and his wife Katherine, uh, 378 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: they've formed the Salvation Army, and that's in the East 379 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: End right, absolutely so he founded the East London Christian 380 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: Mission in eighteen sixty five. Um, I think on the 381 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: White Chapel Road. Um, it's I think his first part 382 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: of his first preaching sessions was in a building which 383 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 1: is now a pub called the Blind Beggar, which has 384 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: more famous modernity connections to the Cray Twins in the nineties. Yeah, 385 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: the he adopted. They adopted the Salvation Army tag in 386 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: in eight They were former Methodists and they wanted to 387 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: bring religion and abstinence from alcohol to the people of 388 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: East End. They operated by holding large public meetings and 389 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: organizing marches through through communities. Of these marches are accompanied 390 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: by brass bands made up of their members. Um, there's 391 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: a military system of organizations. So General Booth is at 392 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: the head and they have soldiers, and of course they 393 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: distribute their weekly newspaper, the War Cry, on the streets 394 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: and by going into public houses and Booth Like many 395 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: social reformers at the time, saw alcoholism as an integral 396 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: cause of poverty, immorality and then of domestic violence, and 397 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 1: his Army challenged men and women to change their lives, 398 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: looking to recruit from within those working class communities, and 399 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: they brought their their kind of brand of religious further 400 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: into into communities like White Chapel, which often drew down 401 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: quite a lot of abuse and ridicule from the locals. 402 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: And it might he might not have listened to the 403 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: rhetoric that they were putting out their their Christian vision, 404 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: because in the early days of the Army of the 405 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: marching bands delivered a sort of a rather terrible din 406 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: rather than a badley of beautiful music, because they weren't 407 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: particularly good at playing their instruments. And you quite often 408 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: find Salvationists being brought before magistrates by the police for 409 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: causing a nistance not or causing an obstruction. But they're 410 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: clearly people who were driven by their very strong religious 411 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: beliefs to affect change in the communities they see that 412 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: are so blighted by alcohol and poverty, crime and homelessness. 413 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: And when you talk about journalists publishing stories about the 414 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: East End in a way that connects them to the 415 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: margins are the reaches of the British Empire. I thought 416 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: it was so interesting that William Booth he picks up 417 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: on the in Dark Africa kind of stereotype and he 418 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: publishes a book called in Darkest England, right, yeah, and 419 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: I think in eighteen nine one, um, yes, he he 420 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: publishes a book because it's taking that kind of idea 421 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: of the missionary. So if we're sending missionaries out to Africa, 422 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, we're sending the likes of Stanley and Livingstone, 423 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: there's kind of explorers come missionaries to bring the word 424 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: of It's not just the word of God, is it. 425 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: Of course, it's it's the it's the world word of 426 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: white civilization. Two so called uncivilized African tribes in that 427 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 1: in that terribly imperialistic way that was such a feature 428 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century. And but if you're going to 429 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: do that in Africa and you've got desperate poverty and 430 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: people who are living in immoral conditions, people not getting 431 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: married and having children out of word and in Andrew 432 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Menss term, you know, incest is common in in the 433 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: in the hovels of Leash, London. Even if he was exaggerating, 434 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: then surely you need missionaries to go out to White 435 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: Chapel and Spittlefields and then down below the river south 436 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: of the River into the Borough and Southolk and Burman's 437 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: in place of that where you've got Similarly, it looks 438 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: like the world has been neglected. It looks like Christ 439 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: is not permeating into those parts of the Empire, so 440 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: darkest England is it's kind of perfect vehicle for him 441 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: to to make that point. Mm hmmm. And it strikes 442 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: me that if we're talking about a place that is, 443 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: you said at the beginning, a multicultural melting part um, 444 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: then some of what we've been discussing when it comes 445 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: to middle class sensibilities is also it's mixing and being 446 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: motivated by some of those ideas about white civilization too, 447 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: when you're talking about bringing it to the margins of 448 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: the Empire or into this multicultural region of your own city. Yeah, 449 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: I mean, let's I mean, we need to be really clear. 450 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: It's a different it's a different world, it's a different 451 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: it's a different society. But but nine century Britain is 452 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: a is a quite it's quite a racialist society. You know, 453 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: were the British see themselves as superior, and superior is white, 454 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: but superior is British English and then pretty much the 455 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: rest of the world, and we look down on pretty 456 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: much everybody. In the nineteenth century, and waves of immigrants 457 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: from from Eastern Europe that are coming into London will 458 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: be disparaged. We are pretty pretty down on the Irish, 459 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: We are pretty down on the Chinese, who have the 460 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: small pockets of communities around Lime House. And even the 461 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: Europeans are fellow Europeans like the French and the Germans, 462 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: well we have a beef with them as well throughout 463 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: the century. So everybody is everybody compares very badly to 464 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: white British civilization. HM. And when you're talking about social 465 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: reform and there's kind of missions into the East, and 466 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned some of the attitudes towards alcohol, especially for 467 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: William Booth, but I know those are more general as well. 468 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: What were some of the attitudes towards you mentioned earlier prostitution? 469 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: How do the social reformers talk about prostitution as a 470 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: part of kind of anti vice campaigning and that kind 471 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: of thing in the East End. So prostitute, I mean, 472 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: attitudes towards prostitution, they kind of they yo yo through 473 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: the century, the eighteenth and nineteen centuries, so there are 474 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: varying views of prostitution. They kind of come in and 475 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: out of fashion. So prostitutes are quite often seen as 476 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: a necessary evil sort of protecting the pure and innocent 477 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: young women from from lust from male lust, which which 478 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: are seen as kind of natural or at least uncontrollable. Um, 479 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: they're also seen as victims, so the kind of trope 480 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: of the poor servant girl who's forced into prostitution after 481 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: being ruined by a predatory master or or a dishonest 482 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: lover who's promised to marry her and then run off UM. 483 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: But in the aftermath of the Crimean War in the 484 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: eight fifties, the problem of prostitution became mostly focused around 485 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: sexually transmitted diseases, particularly the diseases of syphilis and ganaria, 486 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: because these are he's a kind of undermined being the 487 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: British war effort against Russia and the Crimea UM. Many 488 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: more people were lost to disease than were lost to 489 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: bullets and cavalry savers of the Russians, So this kind 490 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: of dominates the discourse surrounding prostitution and its effects on 491 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: society in the sixties. And in the sixties there are 492 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: attempts to control prostitution and the spread of what we 493 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: today would call s T I s U, particularly the 494 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: spread of sexually transmitted infections in the armed forces, the 495 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: army and the Navy, and a series of acts had passed, 496 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: the Contagious Diseases Acts, which helped to cement the idea 497 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: that prostitutes were a pollutant within society. They are spreading disease. 498 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: And this is coupled with the concepts that are criminal 499 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: class existed in Victorian London, not a particularly new concept, 500 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: but one that sees a revival in the sixties once 501 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: we stopped transporting people to Australia. So instead of getting 502 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: rid of our criminals, they're kind of with us still. 503 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: They're in our prisons and they're back on our streets, 504 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: and that kind of reinvigorates this idea of a criminal class, 505 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: a subspecies of humanity that had the power to corrupt 506 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: the honest, respectable working man and his family. And prostitutes 507 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: were seen as the kind of female bit of this 508 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: criminal fraternity, even though technically prostitutions not not actually a crime, 509 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: and so prostitutes were associated with immorality, with drunkenness, with 510 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: theaters and musicals, and of course with poverty. So there's 511 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: a whole range of things that come with the Victorian 512 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 1: associations with prostitution. In the Victorian period. Mhm, Let's let's 513 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: take a step into the East End. We've been talking 514 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: about the attitudes, the stereotypes, but how did people in 515 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: the East End actually live? Um? You know, I'm interested 516 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: for thing king about the White Chapel murders. Um, what 517 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: are the model dwellings that you write about, the pabod 518 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: buildings or or other structures like them. Um, what were 519 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: these model dwellings? And relatedly, kind of who owned the 520 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: property in the East End where where all these people lived? 521 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: So Peabody homes or model dwellings are an attempt from 522 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: the pretty from the eighteen sixties onwards to rehouse, to 523 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: re home the poor in better well ventilated and her 524 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: Genie Holmes, there's a recognition that London is full of 525 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: unpleasant slums um really badly built and and crumbling housing 526 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: from the eighteenth and early and nineteenth century. There are 527 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: parts of London where which almost no go areas so 528 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: around St Giles, parts of White Chapel where the term 529 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: rookery is used, you know, kind of thinking of crows 530 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: living living together in in nests at the top of 531 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: the top of trees. These rookeries are um full of 532 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: crime and vice and systematically, the the authorities try to 533 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: knock them down and build better places, or sometimes they 534 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: knocked down for example around Liverpool Street to build the 535 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: new railway station in the nineteenth century. But the idea 536 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: of model dwellings really comes from movements in the eight 537 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: comes to fruition in the sixties, and so you have 538 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: particularly gathering momentum through the philanthropy of George Peabody, who 539 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: is a wealthy American banker, and he kind of gets 540 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: together with the architect Henry Derbyshire to establish a trust, 541 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: the Peabody Trust, which is to which is designed to 542 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: build affordable block housing tenement housing across London. Of one 543 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: of the first of these is in the East End. 544 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: So these are large tenement blocks um sort of built 545 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: around built in a sort of square and oblong around 546 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: the central courtyard, which is creating a safe space for 547 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: communities which are shut off from the streets outside. And 548 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: Peabody is not the only organization doing this, there are 549 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: other companies who are doing this is part philanthropy, but 550 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: obviously you're making profit, hopefully but a small profit out 551 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: of this. So there's the Rothschild Buildings in Flarendine Street, 552 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: which built. But many of these places, whilst the emphasis 553 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: is on rehousing the poor, they only really accommodate the 554 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: working class who could guarantee to pay the rent, so 555 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: they acted as a sort of some of these these 556 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: people are acting as a sort of moral land owner. 557 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 1: The model's Weddings movement a kind of moral and owners. Yeah, 558 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: this is where you'll find people like Octavia Hill from 559 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: the charity organization Society charity visitors who come around and 560 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: check on the people that were living here. So they're 561 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: checking that the men are in work, they're checking that 562 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: the children at school, that the rooms are clean and tidy. 563 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: And if you fail in any of these areas, or 564 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: you can't pay your rent, then you're going to be evicted. 565 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: So and that's very difficult to guarantee for people at 566 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: the very bottom end of society, people who are the 567 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: casual poor, who don't have regular jobs, who are alive, 568 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: for example, on work at the docks, on picking up 569 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: work on a daily or a weekly basis. Now you 570 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: can't guarantee that you can pay your rent, so you're 571 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 1: not going to get into a model's wedding. And they're 572 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: actually the people that really need this decent housing. So 573 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: the models only movement is definitely a good thing. And 574 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: you can see many of the model dwellings people buildings 575 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: are still existent in London today. They built them very well, 576 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: the beautiful examples of Victorian engineering and building, but they 577 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: weren't in placea so many other people in the East 578 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 1: End will have been forced into you know, poor crowded housing, 579 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: and we see terrible examples of people living all the 580 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: way down to two sellers where they're living in sort 581 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: of stigen conditions in dark, unlit um damp basements all 582 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: the way up to living in attic spaces, whole families 583 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: in one room. Um I no sanitation. You know, you 584 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: might have um shared pridulate facilities in the yard at 585 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: the back. So very poor, very cold in winter, very 586 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: hot in summer. Um. So you see lots of images 587 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: of white chapel of people outside, people being outside because 588 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to be inside. Because also your inside 589 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: space is also probably your workshop space. So people who 590 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: are working, um piece workers, copying or building matchboxes were 591 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: going to do that at home. So you've kind of 592 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: got to get the kids out from under your feet 593 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: in order to turn them your space into a into 594 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: a workspace during the day, families sharing beds. These these 595 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: conditions were what shocked the middle classes when they came 596 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: to investigate. And below that, if you, if you, if 597 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: you couldn't afford even that sort of to rent a room, 598 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: then you'd be on casual lodging houses where you are 599 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: paying a few pennies a night for a room or 600 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: not even a royom, but you're paying for your bed 601 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: or even a rope to sleep on in the worst 602 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: possible conditions. And these are some of the situations that 603 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: the women who found themselves as victims of Chapter Ripper, 604 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: and we're living in the nights before they died. And 605 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: there's even below that, below the casual lodgings are is 606 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: the workhouse. The workhouse casual ward where you went in 607 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: in the evening, you've got a little bit of bread 608 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: to eat, and you've probably got south down as some 609 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of wash um, your clothes, taking your belongings taking 610 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: away and workhouse close to where and in the morning 611 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: you get breakfast. Such a thing it was, but in 612 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: return for doing some work, breaking rocks or picking oakum 613 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: or something like that. So there's a whole degree of 614 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: poor housing in the East end um, none of it 615 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: is very good. And who owns it well, it's owned 616 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: by by slim landlords, mostly people like McCarthy who owns 617 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: most of whites Row and Dorset Street where Mary Kelly 618 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: is murdered. These are these are landlords who are not 619 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: wealthy themselves, but a certainly exploiting the fact that people 620 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: need somewhere to live in a desperate for anything they 621 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: can care mhm h. In all of these conditions, as 622 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: you say, existed side by side in Whitechapel. Yeah, they 623 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: they're they're all running and people will probably fall through 624 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: different gaps, you know. They they Your life was determined 625 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: by what money you had. So in a society without 626 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: a benefit system, if you had work then you would 627 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: probably great. So if you were reasonably if you you 628 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,959 Speaker 1: and your wife were in work, or you're in work 629 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: and your wife could look after the kids, and yeah, 630 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: you could live in a model's warning and probably have 631 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: a decent, clean environment to live in. Nobody in the 632 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: working class has been played very much. But if you 633 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: lost work, you've got ill um, your wife died, your 634 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: husband died, um, then you were very quickly going to 635 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: fall into poverty and then fall through those gaps in society, 636 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: So you would fall from a model's welling into a 637 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 1: cheap lodging, UM in a room and a cheap lodging, 638 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: how too, maybe a bunk in a in a kit 639 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: house to a workhouse, UM to the streets, because because 640 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: once you once you can't even afford the two or 641 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: three pence a night for um for part of a 642 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: bed in a shared lodging, then you're going to be 643 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: sleeping on a park bench. M Thinking about the kinds 644 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: of people that were living in these neighborhoods. You mentioned 645 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: a large Irish community, a large Jewish community. Um, what 646 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: was it like to be Irish in London's East End? 647 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: What was that exp was the experience of being Irish 648 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: in the East End typical of what they would be 649 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: like in other places in London? What kinds of trades, 650 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: what kind of residence as homes were open to London's 651 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: Irish population. I think being Irish and being working class 652 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: Irish and in the East End was probably much to 653 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: being working class Irish anywhere else in London or anywhere 654 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: else in England. You know, places like Liverpool had large 655 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:12,280 Speaker 1: Irish communities as well, so poor and the Irish population 656 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: was generally poor, but it was pretty well established. I 657 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: mean Irish people have been coming to England forever, but 658 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: particularly in the nineteenth century after the Potato family. They 659 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: were generally lower skilled than most other Londoners, that which 660 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: made them more at risk to unemployment, to lower wages 661 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: and therefore impoverishment in London. In the East End, they 662 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 1: could find work at the docks, because irishman were noted 663 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: as strong and capable and good workers. They made they 664 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: made good doctors and importantly they made good Stevie doors, 665 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: which are the higher end of the of the dock industry. 666 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,839 Speaker 1: Irish women would find work in workshops, so they might 667 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: they might work as seamstresses or match girls, and many 668 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: of course would have been as they would have been 669 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: anywhere else in than they would have been employed as 670 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: domestics and domestic servants. So I mean the Irish being 671 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: what it was like to be Irish in London. I 672 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 1: mean there's prejudiced against the Irish, but it's it's not 673 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: in the same way that it might have been prejudiced 674 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,439 Speaker 1: towards people on on the basis of their hum their race. 675 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 1: As such, the Irish um were associated very much with 676 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: a with a hard drinking and a hard fighting culture 677 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: and um and their their predominant religion, which is Catholicism 678 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: for many of the ones that came over, set them 679 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: apart from largely Protestant England. And I think what you 680 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: find from the seventies onwards into the eight is the 681 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: kind of growth of it's the growth of Irish nationalism. 682 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: So Irish home rule becomes very much on the comes 683 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: to dominate politics, domestic politics from the seventies onwards, and 684 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: then in the eighties we start to see, although it 685 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: has happened earlier in the eighteen sixes, we start to 686 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: see episodes of Fenian Irish Republican terrorism. So there's a 687 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,799 Speaker 1: series of bombings in the eighties, which probably means that 688 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: the Irish are um that they're suspected. They become a 689 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: suspected part of society, and that probably increases prejudices their Catholics, 690 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: their bombers, their drunkards, they're violence and they're probably all thieves. 691 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: That's probably a prevalent view of the Irish, but they 692 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: don't have it as bad as some other people. I think, Hm, 693 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: can you describe the Jewish community in the East End 694 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:56,399 Speaker 1: at the time. Um again kind of homes, trades, attitudes. 695 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: How long had there been a Jewish community in the 696 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: East end of London. Well, there's been a Jewish community 697 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: in the East end of London for a tremendously long 698 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: period of time, because it's Oliver Cromwell in the period 699 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: of the English Republic who allows the Jews who have 700 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: been expelled from England in the medieval period back in. 701 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: So they aren't to establish communities, but they're not allowed 702 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: to live in trade in the city of London, so 703 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: they set up around the edges. So that's kind of 704 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: why we get a Jewish community around Spittle Fields on 705 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: the on the edge of the city, in the edge 706 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: of Mita Square. Um. This community, which is well established 707 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: by the eighteenth century but quite small, is mainly made 708 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: up of Sephadic of Portuguese Jews, and this changes in 709 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century with large numbers of Eastern European Central 710 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: European Jews coming and fleeing from persecution and economic distress 711 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: in the Russian Empire, so that the so called pale 712 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,840 Speaker 1: of settlement where they're forced to live and forced to 713 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: serve in the Czar's armies. So Jewish people are are 714 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: leaving Russia, UM and places like Poland and Lithuania what 715 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: we would call today, and they're and they're coming across 716 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: Europe to settle in England or to travel on to 717 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: whether I think they really want to go, which is America. 718 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: And when they settle in places like Spittlefields where there's 719 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: already an established community, this works for them because there 720 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: they can find work as shoemakers and as tailors and shopkeepers. 721 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: They can they can understand the language, which generally becomes 722 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: a kind of speaking of Yiddish. And they are concentrated 723 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: in areas around brook Lane, Went Street, Flower in Dean 724 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 1: Street and Galston Street where where their their synagogues are 725 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: whether people that understand them, where they can buy the 726 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: food they're used to and actually from descriptions at the time, 727 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is looking like another country. Actually, of course, 728 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 1: if you travel to White Chapel today, you'll see a 729 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: similar thing, but with a different community. You've got a 730 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: Bengali community there lots of people from from Um, a 731 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,799 Speaker 1: different part of the world. But but but similarly to 732 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 1: the Jewish community in the nineteenth century, you would have found, 733 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, black things posted in Hebrew signs on walls 734 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: in Hebrew. So they brought their own customs, their religion, 735 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,240 Speaker 1: their language, their clothes, their food. And they also, of course, 736 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: and I think it's also helped with their prejudice against them, 737 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: they bought some of their radical political ideas like socialism 738 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:53,919 Speaker 1: and anarchism. Mhm hm um. Jumping forward just a little 739 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: bit to touch on White Chapel before we continue some 740 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: of these general comments. Um, just before any Chapman's murder, 741 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: the Star begins to publish the story that that Polly 742 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: Nichols killer was a Jew named leather apron Can you 743 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 1: describe what kinds of prejudices, as you said, against Jewish 744 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: life that kind of reporting would have conjured up for 745 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: the Stars readership. Yes, I mean there's a there's a 746 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,959 Speaker 1: the suggestion that the Whitechapel murderer was a guy called 747 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:34,280 Speaker 1: leather apron Um sometimes identified as John Piser, and that 748 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: this is this is very much in keeping with contemporary 749 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: views of Jews, but also the way in which the 750 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 1: Whitechapel murderer was the idea of the Whitechapel murderer was 751 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,759 Speaker 1: constructed at the time and has come down to us 752 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 1: ever since. So the descriptions of leather Apron in the 753 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: newspapers highlighted things like his small black eyes and his 754 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: Hebrew features, which is probably suggesting he had a large nose, 755 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: that kind of Semitic appearance, and the color of his skin. 756 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: He was described as sinister um. He was in the 757 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: trades that we would associated, not exclusively with Jewish immigrants 758 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, but certainly with many of them. 759 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,760 Speaker 1: He was a shoemaker or a bootmaker or a slipper maker, 760 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: and he was he was said to be someone who 761 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: terrorized local women with a long sharp knife. Now I 762 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: think that's important because English people weren't necessary associated with knives. 763 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 1: You associated foreigners with knives, Portuguese sailors, um, Jewish barbers 764 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:42,840 Speaker 1: and shoemakers, Native Americans escaping from buffalo bills while west 765 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:47,760 Speaker 1: traveling show. So it was easier for people in London 766 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century to believe that Jack the Repper 767 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: was a foreigner. He was a crazy immigrant, someone identified 768 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:59,120 Speaker 1: as other, rather than an indigenous resident of White Chapel. 769 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 1: So those are all things which it's the presence of 770 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: large numbers of Jews in that area, and the prejudice 771 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: and the anti Semitism, which is definitely rife in Victorian London, 772 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: which helps to allow someone like the start to point 773 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,719 Speaker 1: the finger at a leather ape. And for what it's worth, 774 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: of course John Piser wasn't chatter rippey. He had an 775 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: alibi for that. That that's um night and the sergeant 776 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: Sergeant Thick that arrested him ended up having to protect 777 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 1: him from the mob outside. Mhm, mhm. In the opening 778 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: of London Shadows, you mentioned, um that there are some 779 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:45,439 Speaker 1: distinctly theological aspects of the East Ends reputation. Uh. And 780 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about the Salvation Army and you know, mentioned 781 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 1: kind of missionary efforts and that kind of way of 782 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,799 Speaker 1: thinking about what was going on. Um. And in your 783 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 1: book you say it wasn't the worst, the most criminal 784 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: place to live in London in the eighteen eighties, but 785 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: it was representative from many Victorians of the depths to 786 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 1: which humanity could sink when separated from a close relationship 787 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,879 Speaker 1: with God and Christianity. Can you say a bit more 788 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,400 Speaker 1: about how theology is shaped the ideas we've been talking 789 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: about about crime and poverty and vice. Yeah, for sure, 790 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: I'll never get used to hearing my words come back 791 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:31,880 Speaker 1: at me. Um, yeah, I think I mean Victorian British 792 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 1: society was a lot more religious than modern Britoness society is, 793 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: even if going to church wasn't as ubiquitous as as 794 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,479 Speaker 1: some people probably thought it ought to be. But most 795 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,800 Speaker 1: social reformers were motivated by their Christian beliefs. And this 796 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 1: this kind of manifested itself in a in a highly 797 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: moral discourse about society and charity was closely linked to Christianity, or, 798 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,480 Speaker 1: in the case of the Jewish community, to traditions within Judaism. 799 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 1: It was it was a moral obligation to help the poorest, 800 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,320 Speaker 1: but that obligation sat side by side with a belief 801 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: that some sections of Victorian society had lost sight of 802 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: the message of Christ. They had to be enlightened. The 803 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 1: Word of God needed to be brought to the people 804 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: of our chapel, just as missionaries will bringing it to 805 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:29,439 Speaker 1: the supposedly uncivilized peoples of Africa. Um. So, I think 806 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: you've got that kind of sense that the all the 807 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 1: people that are writing about the East, and Andrew Mens, 808 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: William Stead, Samuel Barnett, you know, the women like Helen 809 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: den Dendy, Helen Bows and Cake, Beatrice Web. Very many 810 00:54:52,280 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: of those social reformers, Charles Booth, they are motor of eight. 811 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,920 Speaker 1: They can't separate out there their religion. It's such a 812 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,879 Speaker 1: part of them, and I think that's quite different. It's 813 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: quite difficult, I think, to get that across to people 814 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 1: in our world because religion doesn't play that kind of 815 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: role in our society. It's very much an add on 816 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,839 Speaker 1: for many people in Britain today. You know, you go 817 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,880 Speaker 1: to church at certain times for for weddings and funerals 818 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,520 Speaker 1: and baptisms perhaps, but it's not part of your daily 819 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: life in the way that it would have informed the 820 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 1: lives of people at that time. So everything kind of 821 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:41,880 Speaker 1: gets seen through that particular lens. Mhm, mhm. Thinking about 822 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:49,680 Speaker 1: life and death in the East End, Um, what we 823 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:56,120 Speaker 1: consider today the Ripper murders weren't the only killings in 824 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 1: the White Chapel area or across the East End. And 825 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: there's violent crime on record in the neighborhood throughout the 826 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 1: eighteen EIGHTI its not just you know, in a few months, um, 827 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,600 Speaker 1: but how violent And again we're kind of talking about 828 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:18,080 Speaker 1: stereotypes of versus reality. How violent was Whitechapel really and 829 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: and then what was the general understanding of that violence 830 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,920 Speaker 1: that did occur. Yeah, and it's obviously very difficult to 831 00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,240 Speaker 1: measure violence in the past. It's quite difficult to measure 832 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 1: violence in our own society. Is very diffult to measure 833 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,399 Speaker 1: of violence in the past because because you're you can 834 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: only measure statistics of violence. So you can you can 835 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: measure reported crime, you can measure prosecuted crime, you can 836 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:50,320 Speaker 1: measure convictions, so the number of assaults and number of murders, etcetera, etcetera, 837 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,880 Speaker 1: and we don't really have those sorts of stats for 838 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: nine century. There's a sense that violence is how the 839 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,880 Speaker 1: generally speaking crime has been in the decline from the 840 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,239 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties onwards and is beginning to rise again in 841 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,320 Speaker 1: the eighties. And that's probably also to do with cycles 842 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: of of economic cycles. It's also to do with economic cycles, 843 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,720 Speaker 1: because poverty and crime are are interlinked. And when we 844 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,960 Speaker 1: talk about violent crime in the past, we're often talking 845 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: about violent property crime like robbery, rather than violence per se. 846 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,560 Speaker 1: I think violence was endemic in the East ending White Chapel, 847 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: but murder was relatively uncommon, or perhaps we could say 848 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: that it was no more common than anywhere else in London, 849 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,000 Speaker 1: and the White Chapel murders of course are notable because 850 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: of their particular brutality and the and the sequence that 851 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: was unusual. Casual violence, assaults, fights between men in pubs, 852 00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 1: domestic abuse were daily occurrences and we can see this 853 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: in the prosecutions at the police magistrate courts. At places 854 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,920 Speaker 1: like Thames and Worship Street, m violence was mostly carried 855 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: out by men, either against other men, against the police, 856 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: or against their female partners and wives, or violence was 857 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: directed at children. And the East End Whitechapple Spittlesfields was 858 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: a rough area, but I don't think it's helpful to 859 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,800 Speaker 1: see it as more violent than any other poor district 860 00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,080 Speaker 1: in the UK at that particular time. Well, I can 861 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:36,000 Speaker 1: say a bit about other murders if that's useful, Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, 862 00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,640 Speaker 1: I mean there were there were other murders, and not 863 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: not least the Thames torso mystery, which which could possibly 864 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,720 Speaker 1: be linked to the rip of Killings um so. In 865 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 1: that case, there was a discovery of a female torso 866 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,400 Speaker 1: in the Thames at Raynham in May seven, with more 867 00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,960 Speaker 1: body parts surfacing that that same year and then in 868 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: September right while the White Chappel cases is kind of 869 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: reaching its enif another torso was being found amongst the 870 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:15,680 Speaker 1: building worked for police headquarters at Whitehood and in June, 871 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: third dismembered female body was dragged from the Thames at 872 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: Horsby down before in September of that year, the police 873 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 1: discovered the rotting torso underneath arches in Pension Street, which 874 00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 1: isn't far from where There's Stride had been murdered just 875 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,120 Speaker 1: a year earlier. There were several other high profile murders 876 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 1: in London. Only four men were sent to the gallows 877 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:41,640 Speaker 1: of the result of that, so I think we have 878 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: to put it into context that we think of it 879 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,840 Speaker 1: as being a murderous age, but actually they weren't sending 880 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: that many people. We weren't executing that many people for murder. 881 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,160 Speaker 1: The most compelling murder of eighteen eighty I think was 882 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: probably that of Joseph Rumbold, who was killed in May. 883 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: He was a was in the wrong place at the 884 01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,480 Speaker 1: wrong time. He was killed as he strolled in Regent's 885 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Park with his girlfriend um and this is part of 886 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,240 Speaker 1: a gang feud out of hand and his killer was 887 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,920 Speaker 1: an eighteen year old there was sentenced to death, but 888 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: reprieved on account of his age. So he kind of 889 01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,160 Speaker 1: tells us that that there were there were domestic murders, 890 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,840 Speaker 1: there were murders through robberies, there were gang murders. The 891 01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 1: Ripper murders because they were serial, because they were particularly brutal, 892 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,800 Speaker 1: are different. But but but there wasn't a particularly more 893 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,640 Speaker 1: murderous here than any other. Mm hmmmm. Well, And in 894 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 1: your book Jack and the Temps Torso Murders, Um, you 895 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:48,440 Speaker 1: describe those cases that you just mentioned at Raynom and 896 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:53,200 Speaker 1: Whitehall and Pension Street, UM, in a way that I 897 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:59,080 Speaker 1: think is very that I found very helpful and compelling, 898 01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:05,000 Speaker 1: because we do talk as if even and this is 899 01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,880 Speaker 1: part of the myth of Jack the Ripper, that what 900 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we call the White Chapel murders were particularly horrifying and brutal, 901 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:18,960 Speaker 1: and they were. But reading about the Torso murders I 902 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:25,080 Speaker 1: found equally horrifying. UM. And so I appreciated what you 903 01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,360 Speaker 1: did with that book, and so I'm glad you. I'm 904 01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,480 Speaker 1: glad you went on to mention them in this conversation 905 01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,840 Speaker 1: now despite me not dropping that into the outline, because 906 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,600 Speaker 1: and Paul Beg does this too in his book Forgotten Victims, 907 01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,800 Speaker 1: where he talks about the way that you think about 908 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: the White Chapel murders, and often it's a favored suspect 909 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:52,560 Speaker 1: or something that based on you know who, uh, someone 910 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,360 Speaker 1: you know who's identified as a suspect brings in or 911 01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:02,200 Speaker 1: omits certain crimes are killings that happened in the East 912 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,720 Speaker 1: End in that year. So I thought that was very 913 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,840 Speaker 1: helpful in your own work when we're talking about building 914 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,160 Speaker 1: a case and how connected to see these things or 915 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:17,160 Speaker 1: not um that there's so much of of life of death, 916 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,880 Speaker 1: even of the crimes that were committed. That's that gets 917 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 1: omitted from the stories that we tell for sure. Yeah, absolutely. 918 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean we focus on what we want to focus 919 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,480 Speaker 1: on in the replicase and that that's how that's how 920 01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,080 Speaker 1: it's been driven. And that's kind of the falsification of 921 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,960 Speaker 1: history in a way, because you leave out the bits 922 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,160 Speaker 1: that don't fit the argument you want to make. And 923 01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,200 Speaker 1: I think even even the best historians are are guilty 924 01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:49,880 Speaker 1: of of that um at some point, because it's in 925 01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,360 Speaker 1: as long as you don't admit things which as long 926 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,840 Speaker 1: as you don't admit omit things which completely dismantle your argument. 927 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,280 Speaker 1: I think he's trying to probably get away with with 928 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:07,919 Speaker 1: with emphasizing the facts or the situations which they think 929 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,200 Speaker 1: are most compelling to drive the narrative that they want 930 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:20,240 Speaker 1: to present. Thinking about the agencies responsible for investigating or 931 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,840 Speaker 1: preventing all of these crimes. Um, you mentioned earlier that 932 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,160 Speaker 1: the City of London Police is different from the Metropolitan Police. 933 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,800 Speaker 1: You mentioned the Thames River Police. There's also the c 934 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,240 Speaker 1: i D at Scotland, the Criminal Investigative. I'm sorry, what's 935 01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:40,560 Speaker 1: the department? Yes? Can you briefly describe those various agencies 936 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,000 Speaker 1: how they related to each other? Uh, you know, give 937 01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,240 Speaker 1: our listeners a sense of what was going on with 938 01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:51,800 Speaker 1: this complex, sometimes seemingly byzantine, policing organization in a complicated 939 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: city like London. Yeah. Well, the first thing we have 940 01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,280 Speaker 1: to establish, a course, is that London. London didn't have 941 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:03,720 Speaker 1: a police force until so the police in still relatively new. 942 01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:06,840 Speaker 1: That might seem a strange thing to say, but but 943 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's only fifty or sixty years of policing 944 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,440 Speaker 1: by the time you get to eight. Since Peel passed 945 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,720 Speaker 1: the Metro and Police Act in eighteen twenty nine. The 946 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:25,880 Speaker 1: that created a professional police force which covered all of London, 947 01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,080 Speaker 1: apart from the City of London, which kept its own 948 01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 1: discreete police force. The City of London is governed differently 949 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,200 Speaker 1: to the rest of London. It still is governed differently 950 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: to the rest of London. It has its own corporation. 951 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,280 Speaker 1: So by eight for the Rippmoders, when the Rippermoders take place, 952 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:51,280 Speaker 1: London has divided into twenty six police districts, effectively plast 953 01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:56,680 Speaker 1: the city of London. Um, so you've got they're all 954 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,400 Speaker 1: they're all given a letter, so aid through to to 955 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:05,240 Speaker 1: why Um, I don't think this is it? Actually there 956 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 1: might be, so scrap that bit. But anyway, there's there's 957 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: they've all they're all given a letter, and so H 958 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:16,320 Speaker 1: Division looks after most of White Chaplain's bittlefield. But there 959 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: is there is the ability to draft in officers from 960 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:25,520 Speaker 1: different divisions. But they've all got their own particular divisional 961 01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 1: commanders and therefore their own petty jealous and rivalries. So 962 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: we shouldn't think that A division and H Division are 963 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,520 Speaker 1: necessarily getting on with each other. And there's certainly a 964 01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:45,720 Speaker 1: divide between uniform and playing clothes. The detectives and detection 965 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:50,120 Speaker 1: has a bad press in England. It took a long time, 966 01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:55,280 Speaker 1: so there wasn't a detective agency in England in nine 967 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:57,880 Speaker 1: when the police was first formed. It took until eighteen 968 01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:02,040 Speaker 1: forty two, and it took at Chilly a couple of 969 01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:08,720 Speaker 1: catastrophic failures of the police to catch murderers, high profile criminals, 970 01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,600 Speaker 1: criminals for them to create the detected apartment in eighteen 971 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:18,440 Speaker 1: forty two, and that that was a very small number 972 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:24,200 Speaker 1: of officers, and you could ask ordinary uniform officers to 973 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,880 Speaker 1: go into playing clothes. But the British kind of didn't 974 01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 1: like the idea of playing clothes policing at the time. 975 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:37,880 Speaker 1: It kind of smacked of Napoleonic spies. They had quite 976 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:43,680 Speaker 1: strong memories of of Napoleon's secret police, and we didn't 977 01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:46,520 Speaker 1: really want to have a detective in that way. It 978 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,240 Speaker 1: only that only really changes in the nineteenth centuries as 979 01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,560 Speaker 1: detectives get a place in popular culture. So Dickens the 980 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:59,720 Speaker 1: American Wilkie Collins, and then of course um Sherlock Holmes, 981 01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:04,800 Speaker 1: that they these characterizations of detection, if not police detective 982 01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,640 Speaker 1: in the case of homes, that they begin to establish 983 01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,000 Speaker 1: in the in the popular mind, the idea that detection 984 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,280 Speaker 1: can be a good thing because Jenery speech and we 985 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:19,919 Speaker 1: don't think it's a good thing. Um. Alongside the Met 986 01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,200 Speaker 1: and the City of London Police Force, you have the 987 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,920 Speaker 1: Criminal Investigation Department which is created in it's basically the 988 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:36,840 Speaker 1: Detective Division, the Detective Department renamed so in there's a 989 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:44,520 Speaker 1: massive scandal um called the turf fraud scandal, when several 990 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:52,280 Speaker 1: members of the detective departments are um fingered as as 991 01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:59,760 Speaker 1: being part of a criminal fraud racket surrounding betting, and 992 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,080 Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a um. Some of these 993 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,840 Speaker 1: these detectives kind of flee and the trackdown and eventually 994 01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,600 Speaker 1: there's a big trial at the Old Bailey in in 995 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:17,080 Speaker 1: in October November eight and a couple of officers are 996 01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,679 Speaker 1: I think three officers are eventually sent to prison for 997 01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,960 Speaker 1: for the fraud. And there's a Home Office inquiry after 998 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:28,120 Speaker 1: that which looks at the defects in the Detective Department 999 01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:33,480 Speaker 1: not just in London but elsewhere. And there's a reorganization 1000 01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:37,040 Speaker 1: led by a guy called Howard Vincent who becomes the 1001 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:41,200 Speaker 1: first director of the Criminal Investigation Department and he appoints 1002 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: a guy called Frederick Adolphus Williamson as the first Superintendency. 1003 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,519 Speaker 1: I d he'd been in the detective department and he 1004 01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,800 Speaker 1: kind of survived the scandal. He'd come out of that 1005 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:59,080 Speaker 1: smelling of roses and he investigated the guys that have 1006 01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:03,120 Speaker 1: been been called up in it, and so they redeemed 1007 01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:08,320 Speaker 1: it the Criminal Investigation Department so that it didn't have 1008 01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:17,280 Speaker 1: the word detective in its Yeah. Um, and then once 1009 01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:22,280 Speaker 1: we're into the eighteen eighties and we're headed for the 1010 01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:26,800 Speaker 1: year of the White Chapel murders. Before we get there, Ah, 1011 01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:32,439 Speaker 1: Charles Warren comes in as Commissioner of Police. Um. Can 1012 01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:38,680 Speaker 1: you describe his personality and maybe some achievements from his 1013 01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:43,200 Speaker 1: career leading up to his appointment as commissioner and what 1014 01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:47,840 Speaker 1: were his relationships to these various players in the in 1015 01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:52,559 Speaker 1: the Metropolitan Police, the Home Office, the Detectives. Mm hmm. 1016 01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:58,040 Speaker 1: As Charles Warren is is an interesting character. UM. He's 1017 01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,840 Speaker 1: a military man. He's background is in the military. In fact, 1018 01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:08,800 Speaker 1: his his background was particularly in the Royal Engineers. So 1019 01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:14,280 Speaker 1: he's a kind of military man who builds bridges, literally 1020 01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:18,960 Speaker 1: builds bridges, UM, does earthworks and as part of the Empire, 1021 01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:23,320 Speaker 1: that's extremely important. So he's a very successful military man. 1022 01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,680 Speaker 1: For most of his career. He blots that a bit 1023 01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,519 Speaker 1: later on, but will come to that. UM and he 1024 01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:36,720 Speaker 1: I mean he's prior to the his appointment in six 1025 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,240 Speaker 1: as head of the Metropolitan Police, he for example, investigated 1026 01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:46,240 Speaker 1: the disappearance of an eminent Orientent. Orient and eminent Orientent, 1027 01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:53,799 Speaker 1: I can't say that a guy called Professor Edward Henry Palmer. 1028 01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,719 Speaker 1: He disappeared in Syria. UM and he looked into into 1029 01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,640 Speaker 1: what had happened to him on bath of the government. UM. 1030 01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:06,040 Speaker 1: He earned a knighthood for his service in South Africa 1031 01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,320 Speaker 1: in Becuana Land, so he was he was kind of considered. 1032 01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:12,200 Speaker 1: He must have been considered as a safe pair of 1033 01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:17,760 Speaker 1: hands and Henderson had to well. Henderson resigned from the 1034 01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,200 Speaker 1: MET has been been in charge for many, many years 1035 01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:24,360 Speaker 1: and he resigned for the MET following the West End 1036 01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:31,240 Speaker 1: riots of when the police mishandled the demonstration in Table 1037 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:35,920 Speaker 1: Square which ended up with rioters smashing windows in power 1038 01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:43,559 Speaker 1: Mau and I think what what the authorities wanted was 1039 01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:47,519 Speaker 1: someone who could who could impose some discipline on the police, 1040 01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,040 Speaker 1: because there were also concerns that the police we weren't 1041 01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,800 Speaker 1: disciplined enough and weren't able to deal with these sorts 1042 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,840 Speaker 1: of difficult situations, and I think his military background in 1043 01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:00,519 Speaker 1: many respects defines his time as commissioner of them. He 1044 01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:04,439 Speaker 1: didn't really get detection, he didn't get planes closed, so 1045 01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,920 Speaker 1: he clashed with C I, with I D. And he 1046 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:16,080 Speaker 1: didn't get on with his boss, who was the Home Secretary, Matthews, 1047 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,479 Speaker 1: so he wasn't well served by his relationship. Probably I 1048 01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,920 Speaker 1: imagine it was quite a prickly upstanding military guy. You 1049 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,519 Speaker 1: probably see him in those sort of images of him 1050 01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:30,519 Speaker 1: in those things like the Charge of the like Brigade, 1051 01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,360 Speaker 1: and there's sort of great films from the sixties and 1052 01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:40,280 Speaker 1: seventies of British Imperial military figures, so I kind of 1053 01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:45,960 Speaker 1: see him like that. Um, but actually a very successful 1054 01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:52,040 Speaker 1: military man until he resigned in their memor, not as 1055 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,240 Speaker 1: people say, because of the failure of the police to 1056 01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:59,080 Speaker 1: catch the ripper, but actually because he he published a 1057 01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:03,600 Speaker 1: sort of defensive himself in a and a popular magazine, 1058 01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:06,680 Speaker 1: and he forgot to ask his boss for permission to 1059 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:08,680 Speaker 1: do so, so he kind of had to fall on 1060 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:13,479 Speaker 1: his um, on his sword and leave the police. I 1061 01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:15,559 Speaker 1: suspect he was probably quite bad of that, and he 1062 01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:22,200 Speaker 1: went back to the army and and and in this 1063 01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,880 Speaker 1: case he ends he ends up in in eighteen nine, 1064 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,080 Speaker 1: so eleven years after the Ripper case, serving um in 1065 01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,120 Speaker 1: the South African War that what sometimes owned as the 1066 01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:37,000 Speaker 1: Boar War. And he's he has to lead the assault 1067 01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:41,479 Speaker 1: on Spine Cop which is an unmitigated military disaster. He 1068 01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:46,080 Speaker 1: got through that and actually he recovered his reputation in 1069 01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:49,840 Speaker 1: the relief of the the town of Ladysmith. And I 1070 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:52,000 Speaker 1: think it's interesting that Paul Big describes him as a 1071 01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:56,599 Speaker 1: man to whom fate certainly dealt to cruel hands. Leadership 1072 01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,679 Speaker 1: of the police during the Ripper case, which is probably 1073 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,680 Speaker 1: in sible for them to solve, and leadership of a 1074 01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,439 Speaker 1: of the of soldiers at the battles Fine Cop where 1075 01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:12,360 Speaker 1: they were rudely defeated by the boors. So yeah, interesting guy. 1076 01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,840 Speaker 1: One other piece of the legal process that becomes very 1077 01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:25,519 Speaker 1: important in the White Chapel case is coroners. There there 1078 01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:29,800 Speaker 1: are plenty of surgeons and coroners who have a hand 1079 01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:37,320 Speaker 1: in the investigation, uh the inquests, the examinations in general. 1080 01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,920 Speaker 1: How significant were coroners in the legal process of the 1081 01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:46,960 Speaker 1: eighties when it came to murder or violent crime. Well, 1082 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,320 Speaker 1: I kind of think of the coroner is very important 1083 01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:55,320 Speaker 1: because they kind of declare that someone's their role is 1084 01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:59,600 Speaker 1: to decide that someone has been unlawthy killed, So that 1085 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,080 Speaker 1: do tears to investigate sudden or unexplained death so long 1086 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,200 Speaker 1: as that's been notified as a death by a member 1087 01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,639 Speaker 1: of the public um. But we shouldn't assume that they 1088 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:15,360 Speaker 1: investigated every suspicious death, or that that every homicide was 1089 01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,960 Speaker 1: identified as such. I think in the case of the 1090 01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:22,800 Speaker 1: Ripper motors is pretty clear that you didn't need a 1091 01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,599 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of medical knowledge to know that somebody had 1092 01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:30,120 Speaker 1: been murdered in those situations. But in recent years, I 1093 01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,840 Speaker 1: think historians have concluded that as the costs of coroner's 1094 01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:37,880 Speaker 1: inquest and the cost of investigation investigating crime increased in 1095 01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:41,839 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, some of the homicides that were deemed 1096 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:46,599 Speaker 1: more difficult to solve might might more commediently been labeled 1097 01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:52,840 Speaker 1: as accidental death by by coroner's um so and going 1098 01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,559 Speaker 1: on from the eight fifties, the police took on quite 1099 01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:57,800 Speaker 1: a few of the duties of the coroners. So you 1100 01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,519 Speaker 1: have policemen appointed as coroner's office is, and that they're 1101 01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,599 Speaker 1: the intermediates between the police and the coroner, so by 1102 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,840 Speaker 1: corner is important. But the police also have their own 1103 01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:12,720 Speaker 1: attached officers and of course the police surgeons to help 1104 01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:16,080 Speaker 1: them determine whether a death was suspicious, and then if 1105 01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:20,439 Speaker 1: it was, what clues whatevidence could be gleaned about the 1106 01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:26,720 Speaker 1: cause of death and any potential perpetrated mhm, mhm. And 1107 01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:33,599 Speaker 1: so we come to and let's begin with Emma Smith 1108 01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:40,320 Speaker 1: and Martha Tabram. What were the circumstances of their murders 1109 01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and how were they interpreted when they first occurred and 1110 01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:50,479 Speaker 1: were examined and discussed. They're quite different. I think the 1111 01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,599 Speaker 1: two murders, the murders of m Smith and the murder 1112 01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:57,200 Speaker 1: of Martha Tabron, should probably be separated out. I think 1113 01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:59,880 Speaker 1: you'll find as a as a consensus growing now that 1114 01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,920 Speaker 1: Martha Tabran was a ripper victim was killed by the 1115 01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:09,800 Speaker 1: same man who killed the five canonical victims. Not not 1116 01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:12,320 Speaker 1: everybody would agree that with that, But then not everybody 1117 01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:15,599 Speaker 1: would agree that the five canonical victims were killed by 1118 01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,639 Speaker 1: the same person anyway, But then a Smith is quite different. 1119 01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:25,679 Speaker 1: She was most probably a prostitute living in spittlefields, living 1120 01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,639 Speaker 1: in George Street who in April was set upon by 1121 01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,479 Speaker 1: a gang of men on Osborne Street, which is at 1122 01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:38,040 Speaker 1: the foot of Brick Lane. It looked like a particularly 1123 01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,679 Speaker 1: nasty street robbery and Emma was left was left for dead. 1124 01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,439 Speaker 1: She she managed to crawl back to her digs, but 1125 01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,200 Speaker 1: she died later she was she was taken on on 1126 01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:54,400 Speaker 1: the stretcher to a London hospital where she died of 1127 01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:59,720 Speaker 1: peritonitis on the fourth of April. So I think she 1128 01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:02,320 Speaker 1: was killed by a group of men, which doesn't really 1129 01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:07,439 Speaker 1: fit in with them the rest of the murders, and 1130 01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:09,360 Speaker 1: at the time I think it was just put down 1131 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,160 Speaker 1: to a group of bullies, bullies being like a group 1132 01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:20,200 Speaker 1: of pimps, prostitutes, pimps or bullies. Martha Tabram is a 1133 01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:25,160 Speaker 1: bit different. I mean, she's thirty seven year old woman, 1134 01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:30,120 Speaker 1: possibly a prostitute um but like many of the victims, 1135 01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, she may not have been a prostitute. She 1136 01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,360 Speaker 1: may she may have temporarily been a prostitute. She had 1137 01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:42,600 Speaker 1: a family background, but she was an alcoholic and she 1138 01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:45,760 Speaker 1: had a reputation for being seen out with men that 1139 01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,400 Speaker 1: she wasn't going out with, which might have tainted her reputation. 1140 01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,719 Speaker 1: And she was found dead on the landing of George 1141 01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:57,719 Speaker 1: Yard Buildings on the seventh of August. She'd been stabbed 1142 01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:02,639 Speaker 1: thirty nine times. Most of the wounds have targeted her abdomen, 1143 01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,880 Speaker 1: so she hadn't had her throat slashed, and she hadn't 1144 01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,879 Speaker 1: had organs removed, which would be like the later killings 1145 01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,360 Speaker 1: or some of the later killings. But I think there's 1146 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:16,479 Speaker 1: enough in in Martha's murder which is suggestive of somebody 1147 01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 1: early on in the process developing the the modes operandi, 1148 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:26,640 Speaker 1: which was which we would see in later killings. I 1149 01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:30,040 Speaker 1: think at the time it was considered to be a 1150 01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,040 Speaker 1: very brutal murder, and there was a suggestion it might 1151 01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,080 Speaker 1: have been carried up by soldiers off duty soldiers, a 1152 01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:38,400 Speaker 1: though there was never any proof of that. Um it 1153 01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:42,200 Speaker 1: made a link to prostitution because again she one of 1154 01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:44,320 Speaker 1: the women that came forward in the aftermath of her 1155 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:47,760 Speaker 1: murder was a woman called Mary Anne Connolly or pearly Pole, 1156 01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:49,880 Speaker 1: who was a local prostitute, who said that she and 1157 01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,120 Speaker 1: Martha had been out and picked up men on the 1158 01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:56,519 Speaker 1: White Chapel Road. UM So it made the identification between 1159 01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:59,360 Speaker 1: prostitution and a killer on the streets and that there's 1160 01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:04,479 Speaker 1: kind of those kind of links, But it wasn't until 1161 01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,400 Speaker 1: Polly Nichols was murdered at the end of all, because 1162 01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,760 Speaker 1: the people began to put those two things together in 1163 01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:14,240 Speaker 1: the newspapers. Yeah, and when you talk about the newspapers 1164 01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,720 Speaker 1: starting to put things together with the murder of poly Nichols, 1165 01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:22,639 Speaker 1: can you describe the way that the press covered murders 1166 01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:26,920 Speaker 1: like this and maybe, um, what relationship did that put 1167 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:33,680 Speaker 1: journalism in with the police. Yeah, I think probably the 1168 01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,040 Speaker 1: reality is that the relationship between the press and the 1169 01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:41,000 Speaker 1: police in the throughout the Rippl case was was pretty 1170 01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:46,080 Speaker 1: mixed and and that depended on as well on what 1171 01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:51,800 Speaker 1: newspaper you were reading. So the police, Charles Warren in fact, 1172 01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:54,800 Speaker 1: had drawn both praise and criticism for the way that 1173 01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,240 Speaker 1: they dealt with things like Bloody Sunday, which is the 1174 01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:01,160 Speaker 1: suppression of writing in Faco Square in the November seven 1175 01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: the previous year. Um So the Times, which is an 1176 01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:10,320 Speaker 1: establishment newspaper, kind of admired the strong armed tactics used 1177 01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:14,760 Speaker 1: against a mob of near due worlds and vagrants. But 1178 01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,800 Speaker 1: the more liberal press, so the Star radical press like 1179 01:21:18,840 --> 01:21:22,519 Speaker 1: the Star or William Staid to powermal gazette tended to 1180 01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:26,320 Speaker 1: condemn police brutality and heavy handedness, and that follows through 1181 01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:30,160 Speaker 1: into the Ripper murders as they as the Watchhopple murders 1182 01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:34,200 Speaker 1: unfolded and they become a national and then an international story. 1183 01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:38,200 Speaker 1: The inability of the police to catch the killer, to 1184 01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:43,120 Speaker 1: catch Jack, drew down greater criticism on them and and 1185 01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:46,840 Speaker 1: onto Warren. And then once you start to see the 1186 01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:51,400 Speaker 1: publication of taunting letters from supposedly coming from the murderer 1187 01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:55,920 Speaker 1: himself or officers advice from the public, the police investigation 1188 01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,320 Speaker 1: actually becomes part of the story and that becomes a 1189 01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,600 Speaker 1: negative or that it's very easy for the press to 1190 01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:07,760 Speaker 1: snipe at the police. And you have that business as well, 1191 01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:12,519 Speaker 1: if you wouldn't have today of the police investigation being 1192 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,360 Speaker 1: tainted by the fact that journalists are all over it. 1193 01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,760 Speaker 1: So as soon as the murder occurs, there's not that 1194 01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,360 Speaker 1: business of a sort of clean police space for them 1195 01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:25,439 Speaker 1: to investigate. It's full of journalists with pens and paper 1196 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,880 Speaker 1: and ask interviewing witnesses. And you have examples of the 1197 01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:34,479 Speaker 1: police interviewing somebody and then half an hour later they're 1198 01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:38,360 Speaker 1: being interviewed by by a journalist and that there were 1199 01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:41,479 Speaker 1: to have been printed in the newspapers. That's very difficult 1200 01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,360 Speaker 1: for the police to control the investigation in that way. 1201 01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:50,880 Speaker 1: Mhm hm. Why so you mentioned those letters. Why did 1202 01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:55,240 Speaker 1: the press publish the what's called the Dear Boss letter. 1203 01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,280 Speaker 1: How would you describe the significance of that letter and 1204 01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:04,600 Speaker 1: it's public pitian for the case and for an understanding 1205 01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,000 Speaker 1: of these murders. Well, I think actually the reality is 1206 01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,400 Speaker 1: that the letter was of course, the letter is not 1207 01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:12,760 Speaker 1: written by Jack the Ripper. It's given the name Jack 1208 01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:14,879 Speaker 1: the Ripper. It's not coming from the killer. It's probably 1209 01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:18,120 Speaker 1: coming from an enterprising journalist or a newspaper editor. And 1210 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I think we probably know now that that is Tom 1211 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,000 Speaker 1: Bullying and Charles Moore of the Central News Agency. They 1212 01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:27,559 Speaker 1: could see a good story when they saw one, and 1213 01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:31,599 Speaker 1: they and they exploited it by penning that letter and 1214 01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,680 Speaker 1: getting it onto the pages of the London Press. And 1215 01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,120 Speaker 1: I think probably with the compliance it will be reluctantly 1216 01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:42,040 Speaker 1: at first of the police. The police are desperate from lead, 1217 01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,439 Speaker 1: so they this might work. This might get people to 1218 01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,599 Speaker 1: recognize the handwriting, who knows, might trigger a memory. That's 1219 01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:52,160 Speaker 1: why they That's why they do it. But in publishing it, 1220 01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:55,040 Speaker 1: they kind of created the monster that we know as 1221 01:23:55,120 --> 01:24:00,360 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. Before the Deer Boss letter was published, UM, 1222 01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:02,840 Speaker 1: and it was published in the newspapers and on bill 1223 01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:06,280 Speaker 1: bill posters, at least two women have been brutally murdered 1224 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:11,000 Speaker 1: by a person or persons unknown. After the release of 1225 01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:15,280 Speaker 1: the Better and the subsequent double event, that the killing 1226 01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:19,160 Speaker 1: of two women on one night, a mythical lone assassin 1227 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:21,639 Speaker 1: has been established in the minds of the Victorian public. 1228 01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:26,360 Speaker 1: And significantly, I think we've we've never shifted from that 1229 01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:28,280 Speaker 1: view of the killer in the hundred and thirty or 1230 01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:32,600 Speaker 1: more years that have passed since the murders ended. And 1231 01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:35,960 Speaker 1: that's the power of the Victorian press. It created the 1232 01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:43,679 Speaker 1: idea of a lone assassin. What in the history of 1233 01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:47,760 Speaker 1: of the British press, what kinds of precedents were therefore 1234 01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:54,600 Speaker 1: discussing a case like this? UM. Was the sensational journalism 1235 01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:57,880 Speaker 1: part of a tradition or you mentioned that it's called 1236 01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,960 Speaker 1: sometimes the new journalism? Is it something really new? Yeah? 1237 01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:06,439 Speaker 1: So what was new about new journalism was its focused 1238 01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:11,320 Speaker 1: I think on an investigation on highlighting and interrogating social 1239 01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:16,639 Speaker 1: ills scandals in some depth. But This is actually prompted, 1240 01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,480 Speaker 1: of course, in part by the greater freedoms of publishing. 1241 01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:23,880 Speaker 1: So in previous part of the century there's been restrictions 1242 01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,439 Speaker 1: on the presidents, some degree of censorship which could form 1243 01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:29,200 Speaker 1: the way largely by the nineteenth century, and taxation. So 1244 01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:32,800 Speaker 1: newspapers are expensive. And if you couple this with the 1245 01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:36,320 Speaker 1: fact that what we see coming across from from the 1246 01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:42,000 Speaker 1: USA is the technological development in printing that makes us 1247 01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:47,599 Speaker 1: able to produce newspapers um more rapidly and cheaper. And 1248 01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:50,559 Speaker 1: then of course things like railways allow us to distribute 1249 01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:54,760 Speaker 1: distribute them more quickly, so news could travel further and 1250 01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:59,479 Speaker 1: travel faster. Many more people could read, or know somebody 1251 01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:01,840 Speaker 1: who could read, so they could read to them, sit 1252 01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:04,360 Speaker 1: around in the pub and read it. More people could 1253 01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:07,120 Speaker 1: afford to buy a newspaper because they're cheaper, and so 1254 01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:10,719 Speaker 1: the newspaper industry is growing. So it's a massive takeoff, 1255 01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:16,640 Speaker 1: particularly from the sixties and seventies, in newspaper readership and 1256 01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:22,200 Speaker 1: newspaper production. Um So the kind of modern newspaper industry, 1257 01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:26,240 Speaker 1: certain newspaper industry we're familiar with by the middle of 1258 01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:32,520 Speaker 1: the twentieth century is kind of established in the late century, 1259 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:37,000 Speaker 1: and as a result, newspaper editors are looking for more 1260 01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:40,240 Speaker 1: and more sensational copy, especially stories that are going to 1261 01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:43,600 Speaker 1: plug readers in and keep them coming back for next installments. 1262 01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:46,640 Speaker 1: If you're a daily newspaper, what are you going to 1263 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,280 Speaker 1: how are you going to attract your reader to come 1264 01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:54,439 Speaker 1: back Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Um. If you're a 1265 01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:57,240 Speaker 1: weekend newspaper and you've got that's more time to think 1266 01:26:57,280 --> 01:26:59,919 Speaker 1: about the story you're putting out. What kind of sensation 1267 01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,160 Speaker 1: your story do you want to represent to your readers 1268 01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:06,320 Speaker 1: to get them to buy your newspaper on Sunday rather 1269 01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:10,080 Speaker 1: than your rivals. And you've got paper boys crying the 1270 01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:14,320 Speaker 1: news in the streets and literally shouting the headlines and 1271 01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:17,760 Speaker 1: persuading people to part with their pennies and shillings. So 1272 01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:22,560 Speaker 1: that's really important to have an installment story, and the 1273 01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:27,680 Speaker 1: Ripper case is perfect for that in terms of sensational 1274 01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:33,719 Speaker 1: crime news, though there's nothing particularly new about in news terms. 1275 01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:37,720 Speaker 1: Prime news had filled columns in the papers going right 1276 01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:39,639 Speaker 1: back to the eighteenth century, right back to the early 1277 01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:43,200 Speaker 1: days of the newspapers, and which which emerged really after 1278 01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:47,080 Speaker 1: the English Civil Wars of the seventeenth century, and in 1279 01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:52,639 Speaker 1: addition to newspapers, there's a tremendous English print culture, British 1280 01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:57,240 Speaker 1: print culture, which had provided a regular diet of murder 1281 01:27:57,360 --> 01:28:00,000 Speaker 1: news and moral panics for readers all the way through 1282 01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:03,200 Speaker 1: through that period. So every execution there would be people 1283 01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:07,040 Speaker 1: selling pamphlets about the person being executed, so you could 1284 01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:09,919 Speaker 1: kind of read about the person you're seeing slowly strangled 1285 01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:14,360 Speaker 1: to death. And the Victorians, as I think writers like 1286 01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:19,840 Speaker 1: Judith Flanders and Rosalind Crone have both eloquently described, the 1287 01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,000 Speaker 1: Victorians are fascinated by murder, and they followed all the 1288 01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:26,639 Speaker 1: gruesome details of homicides, from the discovery of dead bodies 1289 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,839 Speaker 1: through to the capture of the killers, to their trial 1290 01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:35,000 Speaker 1: and then and then at least until eight their public execution. 1291 01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,439 Speaker 1: And actually, I think Flanders has argued that once you 1292 01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:44,840 Speaker 1: remove hanging from the public gaze, whence it's no longer 1293 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:48,519 Speaker 1: taking place on in front of a prisoner, on the 1294 01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:52,400 Speaker 1: roofs of a prison, and you put it behind brick walls. 1295 01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:58,400 Speaker 1: Actually that makes people's fascination with murder grow even more. 1296 01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,519 Speaker 1: And of course, by the sixties we were only hanging 1297 01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:03,559 Speaker 1: people for murder. We weren't hanging people as we did 1298 01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:08,519 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century for all forms of crime MHM. 1299 01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:14,280 Speaker 1: One case from the eighteenth century that looks like an 1300 01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:18,879 Speaker 1: interesting point of comparison or a precedent is the London 1301 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:23,320 Speaker 1: monster case. Can you describe that in brief terms and 1302 01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:28,960 Speaker 1: maybe how it was published about in the press? Yes, briefly. 1303 01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,960 Speaker 1: In there were a series of attacks in London on 1304 01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:35,040 Speaker 1: women which kind of provoked a sort of moral panic. 1305 01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:38,160 Speaker 1: They kind of happened like this, So a strange man 1306 01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:42,120 Speaker 1: would approach respectable women, offered to let them smell his 1307 01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:46,840 Speaker 1: his bunch of artificial flowers, his nosegay, and then stabbed them, 1308 01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:50,120 Speaker 1: usually whilst making suggestive comments. And he generally stabbed them 1309 01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:54,120 Speaker 1: in in, in the behind, in the buttons, and sometimes 1310 01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:56,639 Speaker 1: they wouldn't even realize they've been stabbed until they got home. 1311 01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,800 Speaker 1: And because they wore so many players of clothing. Yeah, 1312 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,400 Speaker 1: And the story occupied the columns of newspapers, which created 1313 01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:08,800 Speaker 1: a sensation. And the man named John Julius Augustine, he 1314 01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:13,080 Speaker 1: was a wealthy insurance broker, off with a fifty pound reward, 1315 01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:17,680 Speaker 1: which fifty pounds is a considerable sum of money. And 1316 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,960 Speaker 1: eventually someone was caught and put on trial in July 1317 01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,840 Speaker 1: seventeen ninety a man named Rennick Williams. He was an 1318 01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:29,320 Speaker 1: artificial flower sell um. He had two trials because the 1319 01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:30,760 Speaker 1: first trial is a bit of a fast but it 1320 01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,640 Speaker 1: was he was convicted and sent to prison. And I 1321 01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:36,599 Speaker 1: think we can see some links between the man because 1322 01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:40,560 Speaker 1: he was dubbed the London Monster or the monster two 1323 01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:46,479 Speaker 1: event in and and of course to the context of 1324 01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,320 Speaker 1: the time. I think it's important to always to see 1325 01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:52,200 Speaker 1: history in context. And it's seventeen eighty nine. We know 1326 01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:54,720 Speaker 1: about seventeen eighty nine is there was a revolution going 1327 01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:59,160 Speaker 1: on across the channel in France. But the revolution in France, 1328 01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:02,360 Speaker 1: following on from the the revolution in America in the 1329 01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:06,240 Speaker 1: seventeen seventies, had raised all these ideas about rights and freedoms, 1330 01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:08,400 Speaker 1: and one of the rights and freedoms that people talk 1331 01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:13,320 Speaker 1: about was women's rights and freedoms. And I think when 1332 01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:16,320 Speaker 1: we look at the London Monster, while it didn't directly 1333 01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:21,040 Speaker 1: influence press reporting of the White Chapels, there's a connection 1334 01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:23,400 Speaker 1: in between the way in which the demonizing of the 1335 01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:27,960 Speaker 1: represvctives as loose women operating outside of male protection, and 1336 01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:30,280 Speaker 1: the late eighteenth century advice for women to stay off 1337 01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:32,880 Speaker 1: the streets for fear of the London Monster. There's a 1338 01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:37,040 Speaker 1: connection there in this idea that women should stay off 1339 01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:39,840 Speaker 1: the streets. So the White Chapel murder and the London 1340 01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:44,240 Speaker 1: Monster of both examples along with spring Hill Jack in 1341 01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:49,559 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, of characters who target women, and male 1342 01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,280 Speaker 1: characters and target women and are kind of saying get 1343 01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:57,240 Speaker 1: back inside the house. Stopped straying into what is male 1344 01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:04,599 Speaker 1: masculine territory. So regarding uh, the letters that came that 1345 01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:10,599 Speaker 1: followed after, Um, the Dear Boss letter that, as you say, 1346 01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:14,400 Speaker 1: gives the kind of mythological character of Jack the Ripper, 1347 01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:21,960 Speaker 1: his his name and you know, a kind of saucy identity. Um, 1348 01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,840 Speaker 1: you've written that it's highly likely that all of the 1349 01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:28,360 Speaker 1: letters are fakes or hoaxes and do not come from 1350 01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,880 Speaker 1: the killer at all. You mentioned the only one that 1351 01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:34,240 Speaker 1: that maybe is different from that is the what's called 1352 01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:38,559 Speaker 1: the Fromhell letter. Um. You explore those ideas at length 1353 01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:42,880 Speaker 1: in the Torso Murders book. Can you say a bit 1354 01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:48,200 Speaker 1: more about that point about the letters likely all being hoaxes. 1355 01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:52,160 Speaker 1: How difficult was it for police to trust any kind 1356 01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:58,000 Speaker 1: of tips or notes or witness statements that they got. Yeah, 1357 01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:00,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I think most researchers today would agree that 1358 01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:03,840 Speaker 1: the vast majority of the letters, certainly the letters that 1359 01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:07,840 Speaker 1: are purport to be from the killer are either fakes 1360 01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:11,559 Speaker 1: or hoaxes. I mean, lots of people writing letters, were 1361 01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:13,920 Speaker 1: writing letters which were offering advice, and we probably have 1362 01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:18,120 Speaker 1: to deal with them slightly differently. Um, but it's not 1363 01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,519 Speaker 1: it's not beyond the bounds of credibility that the killer 1364 01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:23,880 Speaker 1: would try and communicate with the police of the public. 1365 01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean in the States, and you have the Zodiac killer, 1366 01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:31,559 Speaker 1: who certainly did. It's just that these particular letters generally 1367 01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:35,479 Speaker 1: seem incredulous. And I think the exception being made from 1368 01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:40,879 Speaker 1: hell letters because it wasn't signed chat the Ripper. Um. 1369 01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:45,439 Speaker 1: Also that handwright some handwriting experts, and I would qualify 1370 01:33:45,479 --> 01:33:47,960 Speaker 1: that because they don't all agree. Do hold out the 1371 01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:51,920 Speaker 1: possibility that this was the work of some poorly educated 1372 01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:55,760 Speaker 1: individual who was unused to writing, perhaps someone learning their 1373 01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,040 Speaker 1: letters as an It's one of the points that we 1374 01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:01,920 Speaker 1: make in attempts to also case a book about the 1375 01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:07,400 Speaker 1: tempts also cases that we imagine that our guy was 1376 01:34:07,439 --> 01:34:13,400 Speaker 1: potentially kind of trying to trying to improve himself. So, 1377 01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:17,559 Speaker 1: but regardless of whether the letters are real or fake, 1378 01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:24,960 Speaker 1: hoaxes or whatever. Um, it follows that in such a difficult, 1379 01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:28,800 Speaker 1: fevered situation as the police found themselves, they'd have to 1380 01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,760 Speaker 1: check every single lead they got, regardless of whether it 1381 01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:35,519 Speaker 1: was credible or not. Um. So hours and hours and 1382 01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:38,639 Speaker 1: hours of police time would have be wasted following up 1383 01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 1: those kind of false leads sent in by attention seekers. 1384 01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:45,560 Speaker 1: If that's how we want to see them. Um, just 1385 01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:49,200 Speaker 1: because the stuff is looks obviously fake of him, what 1386 01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:51,360 Speaker 1: if it had been true? And I think that's probably 1387 01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:53,880 Speaker 1: explains also why they published the deer Bost letter, because 1388 01:34:53,880 --> 01:35:00,360 Speaker 1: it's what if when it when it came to investigating crimes, um, 1389 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:05,160 Speaker 1: to what extent did police depend on good informants and 1390 01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:10,400 Speaker 1: good tips in order to solve a tricky case? Were 1391 01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,439 Speaker 1: there any significant or high profile crimes that were solved 1392 01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:18,400 Speaker 1: with the assistance of like an anonymous letter leading up 1393 01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:22,120 Speaker 1: to this point, I, yeah, it's one of your curveballs. 1394 01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:24,320 Speaker 1: I don't really know of any. I mean, what I 1395 01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:28,800 Speaker 1: can say is that the police use informants, and you know, 1396 01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:32,799 Speaker 1: the use of informants by detectives by polices is often reported. 1397 01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:34,640 Speaker 1: So there are very many cases that have become for 1398 01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:39,120 Speaker 1: the police, magistrates, or before the old baby in the 1399 01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:42,320 Speaker 1: nineteenth century where you will hear a policeman saying acting 1400 01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:45,759 Speaker 1: on information, acting on information, and some of that information 1401 01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:48,840 Speaker 1: will be information by what we would call a steak out, 1402 01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, watching a watching a building, watching watching particular 1403 01:35:53,280 --> 01:36:00,760 Speaker 1: suspected criminals. But often it's information from the criminal um fraternity, 1404 01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:07,680 Speaker 1: from neighbors overhearing conversations. In much the same way that 1405 01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,120 Speaker 1: the police have probably always and will always gain information. 1406 01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:13,639 Speaker 1: The public will tell them some, they'll get some from 1407 01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:20,280 Speaker 1: criminals who want two um get a lighter sentence, or 1408 01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:23,960 Speaker 1: they'll they'll pay money to people on the margins of 1409 01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:26,880 Speaker 1: criminality in order to get information. All of that kind 1410 01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:28,599 Speaker 1: of stuff is really important. I don't think the police 1411 01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:31,479 Speaker 1: could operate without and I don't think the police in 1412 01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:36,200 Speaker 1: the ninete century could operate without informants, without information. Um. 1413 01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:38,080 Speaker 1: We have to bear in mind because of the nineteent 1414 01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:41,800 Speaker 1: century police don't have many of the tools that the 1415 01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:45,280 Speaker 1: modern police have, you know, like DNA testing, fingerprint testing, 1416 01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:49,240 Speaker 1: close circuit television, and they have none of that stuff. 1417 01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:57,280 Speaker 1: M mhm. Thinking um, back to the people who were 1418 01:36:58,080 --> 01:37:01,960 Speaker 1: the women who were targeted. You challenge the idea that 1419 01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:04,120 Speaker 1: all of the women killed in the White Chapel murders 1420 01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:07,479 Speaker 1: were prostitutes, and you mentioned this earlier in this conversation too. 1421 01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:11,040 Speaker 1: Um you wrote, one of the first things that anyone 1422 01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:13,320 Speaker 1: reads about the Ripper murders is that all of the 1423 01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:16,760 Speaker 1: victims were prostitutes. However, it is probably more accurate to 1424 01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:18,479 Speaker 1: say that all of the women killed by the White 1425 01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:21,200 Speaker 1: Chapel murderer had been selling themselves for sex in the 1426 01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:25,680 Speaker 1: streets shortly before they met their death. So can you 1427 01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:29,880 Speaker 1: describe the significance of the distinction that you're making there, 1428 01:37:30,479 --> 01:37:33,280 Speaker 1: because I do think it's important, But I'd like to 1429 01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:35,920 Speaker 1: hear hear you talk a little bit more about how 1430 01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,479 Speaker 1: from your understanding of what was going on in the 1431 01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:40,080 Speaker 1: East End of One at the time, what life was 1432 01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:45,960 Speaker 1: like there, how important this distinction is. Mhmm. Yeah, well, 1433 01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:48,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's become it's now become wholly contested whether 1434 01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:54,680 Speaker 1: the victims um of Jack the Ripper, specifically the canonical 1435 01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:58,400 Speaker 1: fire victims were prostitutes. I think I'd make a distinction 1436 01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:01,840 Speaker 1: on the grounds ocasionally selling sex in order to get 1437 01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:03,840 Speaker 1: enough money to eat, drink, or pay for the roof 1438 01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:06,120 Speaker 1: of your head is not the same thing as being 1439 01:38:06,160 --> 01:38:09,880 Speaker 1: a full time sex worker. It may well be that 1440 01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:14,479 Speaker 1: all of Jack's victims were impoverished prostitutes, as they've been 1441 01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:17,360 Speaker 1: described for over a century, But I think we should 1442 01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:20,920 Speaker 1: hold out the possibility that at the time that they 1443 01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:26,120 Speaker 1: met their deaths, they were so down and out the 1444 01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:31,679 Speaker 1: prostitution was their only option. It's, of course very easy 1445 01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:33,840 Speaker 1: for the police. It was very of course, very easy 1446 01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:36,640 Speaker 1: for the police and oppressed to dismiss these women as 1447 01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:40,240 Speaker 1: unfortunate who brought their own deaths upon themselves. They were 1448 01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:44,559 Speaker 1: all thought to be prostitutes. But whether that's because they 1449 01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:47,840 Speaker 1: were single women, or they were women who were out 1450 01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:49,920 Speaker 1: drinking and they're women out on their own, I mean, 1451 01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:54,760 Speaker 1: those all fit with ideas of what prostitutes were. So 1452 01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:58,280 Speaker 1: kind of that boundary between being what we might describe 1453 01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:03,439 Speaker 1: as a woman of loose morals and a prostitute. A 1454 01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:07,200 Speaker 1: prostitute somebody who sells sex for money. Women to lose 1455 01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:11,599 Speaker 1: morals doesn't necessarily sell sex at all, and she might 1456 01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:16,160 Speaker 1: have sex with people who she's not married to m 1457 01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:19,200 Speaker 1: and have multiple partners and that might even in our 1458 01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:23,519 Speaker 1: own society be frowned upon, rightly or wrongly, but in 1459 01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:26,160 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century most certainly would have been So I 1460 01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:32,680 Speaker 1: think for me, all these women were killed because the 1461 01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:35,880 Speaker 1: the killer for they were prostitutes. There is also a 1462 01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:38,360 Speaker 1: distinction there. I think the killer believed that they were 1463 01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:42,519 Speaker 1: prostitutes and that was his motivation for killing them. But 1464 01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:47,559 Speaker 1: the same token prostitutes would present themselves in parts of 1465 01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,680 Speaker 1: London where it was they made themselves vulnerable to a 1466 01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:56,000 Speaker 1: killer who targeted strangers in the way that we think. Yeah. Yeah, 1467 01:39:56,080 --> 01:40:00,400 Speaker 1: And and in some of your writing you followed Walker 1468 01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:05,320 Speaker 1: with in describing Eastern sex workers as members of the 1469 01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:10,840 Speaker 1: working class. Can you describe how how that point helps 1470 01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:16,320 Speaker 1: us to understand their lives, how they would have thought 1471 01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:20,360 Speaker 1: about themselves, their control over their own trade. How is 1472 01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,439 Speaker 1: it helpful to think of sex workers as members of 1473 01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:26,360 Speaker 1: the working class. Yeah, absolutely, I think it's really important. 1474 01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:29,360 Speaker 1: I mean, um, these are poor women. None of them 1475 01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:31,519 Speaker 1: came from wealth, and we know a bit more about 1476 01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:34,840 Speaker 1: thanks to the work of various members of the White 1477 01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:39,800 Speaker 1: Chappele Society and authors like Neil Sheldon. We know that 1478 01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,719 Speaker 1: many of these represctives had kind of normal, respectable lives 1479 01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,080 Speaker 1: before they arrived in the East Den. But but almost 1480 01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:49,479 Speaker 1: invariably their lives are characterized by kind of decline into 1481 01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:56,559 Speaker 1: poverty exacerbated by by alcoholism, um, personal tragedies, broken marriages, 1482 01:40:57,080 --> 01:41:00,519 Speaker 1: you know, bereavements, financial insecurities. This is of what led 1483 01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:04,599 Speaker 1: them to the East End. But they're all working class women. 1484 01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:08,439 Speaker 1: None of them came from a higher ranking society. And 1485 01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:13,240 Speaker 1: I think Walker which is interesting in saying that when 1486 01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,799 Speaker 1: we look at Victorian prostitutes, who who are invariably described 1487 01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:21,040 Speaker 1: as fallen and unfortunate by people at the time, these 1488 01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:23,479 Speaker 1: these are women who have fallen from grace, who are 1489 01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:26,679 Speaker 1: unfortunately in the situation. They find themselves a Walker which 1490 01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:29,040 Speaker 1: wants to turn that around. And I think this is 1491 01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:32,920 Speaker 1: interesting to see these women as being empowered and independent 1492 01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:36,120 Speaker 1: being you know, these are women who have refused to 1493 01:41:36,360 --> 01:41:40,080 Speaker 1: follow the kind of path in life that's been mapped 1494 01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:44,040 Speaker 1: out for them by men generally, and instead of gone 1495 01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:51,240 Speaker 1: for the relative quick prosperity and freedom that that that 1496 01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:53,920 Speaker 1: prostitution might bring them, at least in the short term. 1497 01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:58,080 Speaker 1: So I mean we again, context is everything. We have 1498 01:41:58,120 --> 01:42:03,040 Speaker 1: to remember that late nineteenth century British society was heavily patriarchal, 1499 01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:06,600 Speaker 1: with women's rights, feminism. These are things that are emerging, 1500 01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:12,200 Speaker 1: but but it's very very slow. For the vast majority 1501 01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:15,840 Speaker 1: of working class women, life offered not very much. You 1502 01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,160 Speaker 1: had a life of judging, drudgery. You had a life 1503 01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:23,120 Speaker 1: which is it's a life characterized by almost constant pregnancy 1504 01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:27,000 Speaker 1: or childcare, and a marriage to a man who, frankly 1505 01:42:27,080 --> 01:42:29,320 Speaker 1: was probably considered decent if he didn't beat you up. 1506 01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:33,880 Speaker 1: So perhaps it's not unreasonable for some young women to 1507 01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:37,559 Speaker 1: choose to prostitute themselves for a relatively brief period of 1508 01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:42,040 Speaker 1: time if it brought them much more money than they 1509 01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:48,920 Speaker 1: would earn by sewing or charing or something else. Um Like, 1510 01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:51,200 Speaker 1: like young women of all ages, they want to be 1511 01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:54,559 Speaker 1: able to spend money on nice things, on the hats 1512 01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:59,320 Speaker 1: and clothes and jewelry. And I think we should recognize 1513 01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,520 Speaker 1: that that that this sort of female independence was frequently 1514 01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:06,760 Speaker 1: being repressed by by male and female actors in society 1515 01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,600 Speaker 1: at all classes. Victorian society is obsessed with notions of 1516 01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:14,920 Speaker 1: respectability and the proper social order of things. So prostitutes 1517 01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:18,800 Speaker 1: are independent women who clearly didn't know their proper place, 1518 01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:22,840 Speaker 1: and who flaunted their sexuality, and for some that set 1519 01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:26,120 Speaker 1: them apart as social priors, and in many ways, of course, 1520 01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:31,599 Speaker 1: justified the actions of a serial killer in murdering them. Um. 1521 01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:36,240 Speaker 1: It's something that um Donald Romblo for his sites is 1522 01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:39,919 Speaker 1: it's for some victorians that the Ripple was just engaged 1523 01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:45,720 Speaker 1: in street cleaning. Um. You mentioned Neil Sheldon, and you 1524 01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:49,920 Speaker 1: know in reading I mentioned already Paul Begs Forgotten Victims book. 1525 01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:52,840 Speaker 1: But in those studies that have looked at the lives 1526 01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:56,080 Speaker 1: of these women, you know, we find as you mentioned, 1527 01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:59,720 Speaker 1: that any Chapman was married to a coachman for a 1528 01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:03,200 Speaker 1: time and lived with him in Berkshire where she where 1529 01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:06,439 Speaker 1: he attended to sear test marry um before she ended 1530 01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:10,360 Speaker 1: up in Whitechapel, And that Liz Stride she opened a 1531 01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:13,639 Speaker 1: coffee hall with one of her husbands. Um. What sort 1532 01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:17,479 Speaker 1: of of class positions were these? Were these still working 1533 01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:24,320 Speaker 1: class people? Um kind of what from what heights did 1534 01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:28,880 Speaker 1: any Chapman and list Ride in particular fall if we're 1535 01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:32,880 Speaker 1: talking in that kind of parlance of the time. But 1536 01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:36,040 Speaker 1: as I understand it, Liz Stride, you know, should come 1537 01:44:36,040 --> 01:44:41,400 Speaker 1: over from Sweden, so she's an immigrant and a very 1538 01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:43,760 Speaker 1: interesting life, and it's reasiful to know about her life 1539 01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:46,519 Speaker 1: because I think much of it was invented by her 1540 01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:50,120 Speaker 1: and tellings of it. And that's one of the problems 1541 01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,879 Speaker 1: that we have. We know very little about the repect 1542 01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:56,559 Speaker 1: and dreading. We're very very little about Mary Kelly, for example, 1543 01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,879 Speaker 1: so that allows people to him fill with invention stories 1544 01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:05,120 Speaker 1: out um. But I think in terms of the fall yeah, 1545 01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:08,680 Speaker 1: I think there's a danger here to say that these 1546 01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:14,000 Speaker 1: women have these women are unusual in um in in 1547 01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:20,320 Speaker 1: falling through the social thrawning down the social staircase. But 1548 01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:23,720 Speaker 1: I suspect that's true of very many women in in 1549 01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:32,559 Speaker 1: Victorian society. I think you would probably characterize this drivers 1550 01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:34,760 Speaker 1: coming from the working class with a bit of entrepreneurial 1551 01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:37,320 Speaker 1: spirit in setting up a coffee shop. And we're not 1552 01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:39,120 Speaker 1: talking about somebody who's going to have a string of 1553 01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:43,600 Speaker 1: Starbucks up and down the country. Is not It's not 1554 01:45:43,720 --> 01:45:46,000 Speaker 1: that this is not a rich entrepreneur. This is somebody 1555 01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:52,920 Speaker 1: getting by running a coffee shop. And um, so the 1556 01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:57,160 Speaker 1: coachman is still a servant. So any chapman is married 1557 01:45:57,200 --> 01:45:59,519 Speaker 1: to a coachman, but a coachman is a respectable servant, 1558 01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:03,200 Speaker 1: but it's still a domestic servant, so you're still tied 1559 01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:06,920 Speaker 1: to a family house and depends upon um, your master, 1560 01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:11,320 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a subservient position in society. Is 1561 01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:13,880 Speaker 1: a member of the working class. But there are degrees 1562 01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:17,720 Speaker 1: of working class life. And I think, what's happening to 1563 01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:19,760 Speaker 1: these women and we see it and it's very it's 1564 01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,200 Speaker 1: very well illustrated in in Reuben Holtz book. Is is 1565 01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:28,439 Speaker 1: the way that a series of events, tragic events, undermined them. 1566 01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:32,040 Speaker 1: And when you add things like drinking to that or something, 1567 01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:35,320 Speaker 1: it's a drink which is the catalyst for this. That's 1568 01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:39,680 Speaker 1: when they start to slip. And a woman without a 1569 01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:45,280 Speaker 1: husband is is really in a very very dangerous situation, 1570 01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:48,479 Speaker 1: which is why so many women in working class women 1571 01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:52,320 Speaker 1: in Victorian London would have quickly found another partner adopted 1572 01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:55,040 Speaker 1: his name. So you know, with several of the Ripper victims, 1573 01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:58,559 Speaker 1: their names are kind of movable. It's whoever they are 1574 01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:01,880 Speaker 1: with it becomes their common law husband. And marriage is 1575 01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:05,400 Speaker 1: not necessarily something you need to have. UM in that 1576 01:47:05,479 --> 01:47:09,360 Speaker 1: respect of quite modern, I suppose, but there is a 1577 01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:13,640 Speaker 1: fall from grace. But we know about these five or 1578 01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:17,680 Speaker 1: six women because they were murdered by someone who's come 1579 01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:19,839 Speaker 1: down to history as Jack the Ripper. And it's interesting 1580 01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:23,400 Speaker 1: because one of the criticisms of ripper ology has been 1581 01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,719 Speaker 1: that it focuses on the ripper and not on the victims. 1582 01:47:27,240 --> 01:47:29,439 Speaker 1: But of course we would only know that. We only 1583 01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:31,719 Speaker 1: know the victims because they were killed by the Ripper. 1584 01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:36,800 Speaker 1: You know, millions of working class women died. Plenty of 1585 01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:41,240 Speaker 1: them were murdered or or beaten and then died of 1586 01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:45,000 Speaker 1: injuries or died of relative starvation or illness in the 1587 01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:47,479 Speaker 1: nine century, or died in childbooth. We don't know any 1588 01:47:47,520 --> 01:47:53,920 Speaker 1: of their names. They weren't killed by a syrial. I'm 1589 01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:56,680 Speaker 1: not I'm not making a case for a statue to 1590 01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:59,439 Speaker 1: the Ripper. It's just it is another way to look 1591 01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:04,400 Speaker 1: at him. Well. And I yeah, when you were talking 1592 01:48:04,439 --> 01:48:09,719 Speaker 1: about Liz Stride coffee shop, when I read that detail 1593 01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:13,160 Speaker 1: of her life, that was actually what I just felt, 1594 01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:17,320 Speaker 1: such a close connection to someone like that. No, I haven't, 1595 01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:18,720 Speaker 1: I haven't, but I do have friends. I do have 1596 01:48:18,800 --> 01:48:21,840 Speaker 1: friends who you know, opened a small shop. So when 1597 01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:23,840 Speaker 1: I was thinking about yeah, of course, but that's that's 1598 01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:25,439 Speaker 1: the thing, isn't it. It's like walking the streets to 1599 01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:27,639 Speaker 1: Whitechapel and it's like being in a place where someone 1600 01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:31,160 Speaker 1: was Those are the things that connected to it. You know. 1601 01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:34,880 Speaker 1: The class is is you know famously in another country, 1602 01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:37,679 Speaker 1: but actually it's a most of things that we recognize 1603 01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:44,000 Speaker 1: in it. M hm. So you mentioned earlier, UM that 1604 01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:51,360 Speaker 1: in November the murder of the murder investigation is under way, UM, 1605 01:48:53,080 --> 01:48:56,559 Speaker 1: and the police are not catching the killer. There's been 1606 01:48:56,760 --> 01:49:01,599 Speaker 1: a huge mobilization of the forces in October that has 1607 01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:08,639 Speaker 1: been unsuccessful in charging anyone with these crimes. And as 1608 01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:11,240 Speaker 1: you mentioned, that's often pointed to as the reason for 1609 01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:15,120 Speaker 1: Charles Warren's resignation. UM. But he publishes his article the 1610 01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:19,640 Speaker 1: Police of the Metropolis in Murray's magazine. UM. And you 1611 01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:21,920 Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the consequences of that already 1612 01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:24,640 Speaker 1: with with Matthews in the Home Office. But what was 1613 01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:28,200 Speaker 1: the substance of the article, UM? You know, what's this 1614 01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:31,719 Speaker 1: this military man who is now in charge of the police. 1615 01:49:32,400 --> 01:49:36,160 Speaker 1: What's he arguing about the way that policing should be done. 1616 01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:39,559 Speaker 1: What's he saying? Well, I think what what is mostly 1617 01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:43,200 Speaker 1: saying in that article is that he hasn't been able 1618 01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:45,000 Speaker 1: to run the police in the way that he wants 1619 01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:48,440 Speaker 1: to run it. He's being he's having interference, is frustrated 1620 01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:51,920 Speaker 1: by interference from from c I D you know, from 1621 01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:56,920 Speaker 1: the detectives. Um, he's suffering a tremendous amount of criticism, 1622 01:49:57,000 --> 01:49:59,200 Speaker 1: and it suggested he's trying to resign several times and 1623 01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:02,519 Speaker 1: not been allowed to resign. UM. So I guess what 1624 01:50:02,600 --> 01:50:04,880 Speaker 1: he's really saying in that is the police are a 1625 01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:09,759 Speaker 1: fine body of men. My police are working extremely hard, 1626 01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:16,280 Speaker 1: and UM, while I'm working with one hand type behind 1627 01:50:16,320 --> 01:50:18,960 Speaker 1: my back, I'm not able to properly run this case 1628 01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,160 Speaker 1: as I want I want to. And I think that's 1629 01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:23,640 Speaker 1: that's a kind of inevitability you get in that In 1630 01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:31,240 Speaker 1: that that conflict which which exists in British policing, I 1631 01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:34,400 Speaker 1: think even to some extent people would probably arguing it 1632 01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:37,800 Speaker 1: still exists. It certainly existed in British society right through 1633 01:50:37,880 --> 01:50:42,519 Speaker 1: until the relatively recent decades of that tension between the 1634 01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:48,680 Speaker 1: uniform and playing clothes, uniform and detection. The detectives are 1635 01:50:48,760 --> 01:50:51,200 Speaker 1: kind of seen as a they see themselves as an 1636 01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:55,000 Speaker 1: elite part of the police, and they're kind of seen 1637 01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:57,120 Speaker 1: as people who don't have to follow the rules by 1638 01:50:57,560 --> 01:51:00,879 Speaker 1: by others and therefore resented to get better pay conditions 1639 01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:04,120 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. It may be the 1640 01:51:04,240 --> 01:51:11,559 Speaker 1: same in the US, but it's certainly um frustrates Sir 1641 01:51:11,680 --> 01:51:15,400 Speaker 1: Charles Warren. And I'd rather suspect you couldn't get out 1642 01:51:15,439 --> 01:51:18,400 Speaker 1: of the police quick enough so that the article for 1643 01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,280 Speaker 1: Laurie's magazine was his chance to have a goal for 1644 01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:27,439 Speaker 1: those who criticize and called for his resignation. I mean, 1645 01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:29,559 Speaker 1: and you just look at the reaction of the press 1646 01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:33,800 Speaker 1: to it. I mean, you know, the start as a 1647 01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:36,759 Speaker 1: real go in from it. You know, it's it says 1648 01:51:37,320 --> 01:51:41,120 Speaker 1: I wrote this down. A more extraordinary document never found 1649 01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,479 Speaker 1: its way into print. It would be charitable to suppose 1650 01:51:44,560 --> 01:51:47,280 Speaker 1: that when he penned this remarkable addition to the literature 1651 01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:50,200 Speaker 1: of Connie Hatch, Sir Charles Warren was laboring under some 1652 01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:56,160 Speaker 1: unusual excitement for contents. Coney Hatch is London's largest lunatic asylum. 1653 01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,760 Speaker 1: It was it's kind of like saying that he'd gone 1654 01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:03,960 Speaker 1: that basically, No, and I didn't. I didn't mention this 1655 01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:05,720 Speaker 1: in any of the outlines. But I've been thinking a 1656 01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:10,320 Speaker 1: lot about Charles Warren bringing that kind of imperial military 1657 01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:13,840 Speaker 1: discipline to the London police. And you know, a lot 1658 01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:16,640 Speaker 1: of the discussions that I'm a part of here in 1659 01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,960 Speaker 1: the in the United States today are about the militarization 1660 01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:21,759 Speaker 1: of the police. You know, it's kind of the phrase 1661 01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:24,519 Speaker 1: that we used to get at that issue here and now, 1662 01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:28,280 Speaker 1: and and I've read a little bit about some of 1663 01:52:28,320 --> 01:52:33,280 Speaker 1: the radical press criticizing Charles Warren along similar grounds, saying 1664 01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:37,439 Speaker 1: that he was turning the London Police the met into 1665 01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:43,400 Speaker 1: a military and occupying military force. Um, this wasn't the question. 1666 01:52:43,479 --> 01:52:45,479 Speaker 1: So maybe you don't have something prepared, but would you 1667 01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:47,760 Speaker 1: be able to say a few more words about you know, 1668 01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:51,360 Speaker 1: was it fair to criticize Charles Warren for militarizing the 1669 01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:55,160 Speaker 1: police in London. I think it's. Um, it's certainly something 1670 01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:56,760 Speaker 1: that's thrown at him, and it's thrown at him in 1671 01:52:56,800 --> 01:53:00,840 Speaker 1: the wake of Bloody Sunday in November Heaven, when when 1672 01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:05,679 Speaker 1: he kind of he doesn't want to suffer what happened 1673 01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:09,960 Speaker 1: to his predecessor Henderson in in the pal mall all 1674 01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:14,280 Speaker 1: the West End Rights of six. So he tries to 1675 01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:17,800 Speaker 1: close down demonstrations in Trafalgar Square, which is kind of 1676 01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:23,600 Speaker 1: London's traditional place for demonstrations and political gatherings and that 1677 01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:27,559 Speaker 1: kind of He's met with cries of outrage, cries about 1678 01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:31,559 Speaker 1: free speech, as you might imagine, and protests go ahead, 1679 01:53:31,640 --> 01:53:34,760 Speaker 1: and he sends in the soul. He ends in his 1680 01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:40,000 Speaker 1: he's disciplined policeman with in a in a battle, charged 1681 01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:42,799 Speaker 1: to crack heads and clear the square, and that creates 1682 01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:48,000 Speaker 1: a riot. And some fantastic cartoons from the time depicting 1683 01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:52,240 Speaker 1: Warren as on top of Nelson's column and policeman beating 1684 01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:56,880 Speaker 1: up protesters on all the plints around the square, um 1685 01:53:57,360 --> 01:54:00,640 Speaker 1: the Lions getting involved in everything else, and there's a 1686 01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,080 Speaker 1: there's that kind of sense of the he's an own 1687 01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:06,320 Speaker 1: goal really for Warren because the press can can rage 1688 01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:10,920 Speaker 1: against his militarization into Faga Square. Although some of them 1689 01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,200 Speaker 1: are very pleased with what he does, the Times are 1690 01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:17,600 Speaker 1: very pleased with what he does. And and when it 1691 01:54:17,680 --> 01:54:21,160 Speaker 1: comes to the riplicate, of course he doesn't catch the killer. 1692 01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:27,920 Speaker 1: So there's a you know, the criticism is aimful square 1693 01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:29,840 Speaker 1: at the metroids and police because here is a murderer 1694 01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:35,280 Speaker 1: who's killing poor women in East London, and here is 1695 01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:39,040 Speaker 1: a commissioner of the met who sent his men into 1696 01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:43,000 Speaker 1: beat up poor men in the West end of London, 1697 01:54:43,240 --> 01:54:46,680 Speaker 1: So there's kind of a it's a it's a very 1698 01:54:47,480 --> 01:54:52,520 Speaker 1: obvious target for radical press, for the liberal press to 1699 01:54:52,600 --> 01:54:54,320 Speaker 1: have a go up, to have a go out warrant 1700 01:54:54,320 --> 01:54:59,680 Speaker 1: about it, whether it's fair. He did concentrate on military discipline, 1701 01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:04,280 Speaker 1: but he probably thought that was very important. And let's 1702 01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:09,920 Speaker 1: face it, he only becomes a commissioner in late he 1703 01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:11,840 Speaker 1: has not had that much time to do very much 1704 01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:15,440 Speaker 1: with metropologies, and already they've got one of the most 1705 01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:19,520 Speaker 1: high profile murder cases, were the most high private profile 1706 01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:23,880 Speaker 1: murder case for decades, So it's a bit tricky for him. Really. 1707 01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:27,960 Speaker 1: I always started off disliking to Charles Warren and I 1708 01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:31,400 Speaker 1: kind of have a lot of sympathy for him now. Hm. 1709 01:55:33,200 --> 01:55:36,560 Speaker 1: When it comes to the press covering the murders and 1710 01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:44,440 Speaker 1: the investigation, um stories start to dwindle after the inquest 1711 01:55:45,040 --> 01:55:50,120 Speaker 1: of Mary Kelly. Why is that? Why Why does the 1712 01:55:50,320 --> 01:55:54,640 Speaker 1: press kind of decide that the story is over at 1713 01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:58,680 Speaker 1: that point? Well, I guess someone like Stanley Cohen and 1714 01:55:58,720 --> 01:56:01,240 Speaker 1: sociologists would argue that a moral panic with us out 1715 01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:03,400 Speaker 1: and the press eventually get bored of it and they 1716 01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:05,280 Speaker 1: move on to something else. But I think the answer 1717 01:56:05,360 --> 01:56:10,360 Speaker 1: is quite simple really, in the police refuse refused to 1718 01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:14,000 Speaker 1: cooperate with the press in the wake of Mary Kelly's murder. 1719 01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:18,040 Speaker 1: They stopped providing any information or access. You kind of 1720 01:56:18,080 --> 01:56:23,520 Speaker 1: imagine them closing down. You imagine, I imagine reporters standing 1721 01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:25,920 Speaker 1: outside Lehman Street and being told to go away by 1722 01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:31,280 Speaker 1: by uniformed officers. And when they've got the the inquest 1723 01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,040 Speaker 1: is closed down. And that's another trific place for the 1724 01:56:34,360 --> 01:56:38,280 Speaker 1: press to get information. So there's no inquest, there's no 1725 01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:43,160 Speaker 1: information coming out of the police headquarters. Coppers on the 1726 01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:47,000 Speaker 1: beat aren't talking to the press. There's nothing to print. 1727 01:56:47,840 --> 01:56:51,240 Speaker 1: So if there's nothing to print, then you go on 1728 01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:56,320 Speaker 1: and start talking about something else. H M. Of course, 1729 01:56:56,400 --> 01:57:00,200 Speaker 1: those of us who are looking back at the year, 1730 01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:07,000 Speaker 1: at the case, at the killings with um historical interest, 1731 01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:14,800 Speaker 1: there are things that follow events, documents that do continue 1732 01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:19,240 Speaker 1: to draw interest, and one of those is McNaughton's memorandum. 1733 01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:25,800 Speaker 1: H can you talk about Melvin McNaughton and who he was? 1734 01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:29,560 Speaker 1: What is this this memorandum that he wrote, and to 1735 01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,440 Speaker 1: what extent it is or is not significant, especially in 1736 01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,360 Speaker 1: light of one of the comments you've written that that 1737 01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,520 Speaker 1: he in particular may have been invested with too much 1738 01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:43,880 Speaker 1: significance by others who have looked at the investigation. Yeah. 1739 01:57:44,160 --> 01:57:46,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing you probably have to 1740 01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:49,120 Speaker 1: say is if you you could ask, you could ask 1741 01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:53,760 Speaker 1: a dozen different so called experts about the replication about McNaughton, 1742 01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:56,960 Speaker 1: and you'd probably get a dozen slightly different answers. But this, 1743 01:57:57,240 --> 01:58:00,480 Speaker 1: this would be mine, I think. So we know Melville 1744 01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:05,520 Speaker 1: mcdorton was Chief Comsortable c I D In June, so 1745 01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:08,440 Speaker 1: he has an indirect connection to the Whitechapel murdericers. He 1746 01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:10,880 Speaker 1: would have known people who were involved in the case, 1747 01:58:11,160 --> 01:58:15,760 Speaker 1: even though he wasn't directing the case himself. In February 1748 01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:20,520 Speaker 1: he wrote a report on the case, and that was 1749 01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:24,000 Speaker 1: prompted by speculation in the Sun newspaper of the day 1750 01:58:24,440 --> 01:58:28,960 Speaker 1: that the murderer as a man named Thomas cut Blush, 1751 01:58:29,080 --> 01:58:32,560 Speaker 1: and he was kind of refuting that. I think the 1752 01:58:32,640 --> 01:58:36,800 Speaker 1: report really comes to light though, in in nineteen fifty nine, 1753 01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:43,200 Speaker 1: when mcnorton's daughter allowed a TV documentary maker access to 1754 01:58:43,320 --> 01:58:47,840 Speaker 1: her father's papers. Um, so that's kind of how we 1755 01:58:48,200 --> 01:58:51,600 Speaker 1: we get this this thing. The report itself is quite short, 1756 01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:57,720 Speaker 1: and it In it mcdaorton named three possible ripper suspects, 1757 01:58:57,720 --> 01:59:00,160 Speaker 1: So three people that were supposedly known to the police's 1758 01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:06,480 Speaker 1: part of the investigation at the time, and these were Monskey, 1759 01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:13,320 Speaker 1: John Druitt, Michael Ostrog's Michael Michael Ostrog and a guy 1760 01:59:13,480 --> 01:59:16,520 Speaker 1: just known as Kosminski, not given a first name, but 1761 01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:21,720 Speaker 1: generally has been given the name Aaron Kazmitski, but Kazminski 1762 01:59:21,760 --> 01:59:27,920 Speaker 1: a police jews how mc norton right. The mc norton memorandum, 1763 01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:31,880 Speaker 1: as it's known, has been given significance, considerable significant over 1764 01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:35,760 Speaker 1: the years since because because it names three men and 1765 01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:39,760 Speaker 1: because it suggests the police had them in mind. Um. 1766 01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:43,080 Speaker 1: And this supported the claims of Sir Robert Anderson, who 1767 01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:45,720 Speaker 1: was head of c D at the time of the murders, 1768 01:59:45,760 --> 01:59:49,000 Speaker 1: and so we can consider to be a fairly reliable 1769 01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:53,840 Speaker 1: source um. And he said this in he said the 1770 01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,360 Speaker 1: police knew who the rewards in his memoirs, which were 1771 01:59:56,400 --> 02:00:03,080 Speaker 1: published in nine Now police memoirs and notoristly difficult because 1772 02:00:03,080 --> 02:00:06,520 Speaker 1: they're often self justifications and they're written after the event. 1773 02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:10,840 Speaker 1: So we we can give them quite a lot of credibility, 1774 02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,040 Speaker 1: but we need to also be skeptical at the same time. 1775 02:00:13,960 --> 02:00:16,280 Speaker 1: And when we look at mc norton's trier of suspects, 1776 02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:21,320 Speaker 1: my problem is that they broadly fit the typology of 1777 02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:24,320 Speaker 1: who the Victorians thought ought to have ought to have 1778 02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,800 Speaker 1: been the killer I someone who was considered to be 1779 02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,080 Speaker 1: a social other. So we have an upper class gentleman, 1780 02:00:31,680 --> 02:00:34,240 Speaker 1: we have a psychotic doctor, and we have a deranged 1781 02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:40,560 Speaker 1: immigrant dr um, deranged Jewish immigrants. That they're all the 1782 02:00:40,680 --> 02:00:43,640 Speaker 1: people who are drew it or strong on Kosminski, and 1783 02:00:43,800 --> 02:00:48,840 Speaker 1: I think it's rather convenient that mc norton identifies those 1784 02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:51,160 Speaker 1: three as the people that the piece we're looking for, 1785 02:00:51,240 --> 02:00:53,720 Speaker 1: because those are the sort of people the press we're 1786 02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:58,680 Speaker 1: telling the police they ought to be looking for. So yeah, 1787 02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:02,920 Speaker 1: m the annoying thing about McNaughton is spending his name right. 1788 02:01:05,160 --> 02:01:07,360 Speaker 1: That's his name spelled differently all the times, and I 1789 02:01:08,200 --> 02:01:10,840 Speaker 1: spelt it wrong, having corrected it in my book, my 1790 02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:13,200 Speaker 1: last book, And that was one of the reasons that 1791 02:01:13,280 --> 02:01:18,320 Speaker 1: Ripper ologies had such a nothing like, nothing like a 1792 02:01:18,400 --> 02:01:21,120 Speaker 1: typo to get them upset. I spelled a few of 1793 02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:23,800 Speaker 1: my own I spelled it a few of my own 1794 02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:28,520 Speaker 1: ways to um you mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, 1795 02:01:29,520 --> 02:01:32,520 Speaker 1: when you were talking about Jack the Ripper has a 1796 02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:39,080 Speaker 1: modern myth um that kind of without the mystery, the 1797 02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:43,280 Speaker 1: White Chapel murders are just another tale of statistic killing, 1798 02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:45,920 Speaker 1: and that part of what makes it compelling is the 1799 02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:50,720 Speaker 1: ability to project our own ideas into the gap where 1800 02:01:51,400 --> 02:01:54,160 Speaker 1: we don't have a person there. Can you speak a 1801 02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:57,520 Speaker 1: little bit more to the idea that it's the uncertainty 1802 02:01:57,560 --> 02:01:59,920 Speaker 1: about the identity of the killer that keeps this story 1803 02:02:00,040 --> 02:02:01,680 Speaker 1: your life. Do you have more to say about that 1804 02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:05,240 Speaker 1: than you already already said? Well, I can certainly try. 1805 02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, and I think identifying Jack the Ripper, 1806 02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:13,000 Speaker 1: or arguing about the identity of the White Chappel murderers 1807 02:02:13,120 --> 02:02:15,920 Speaker 1: as has kind of fuel the ripper industry. It's an 1808 02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:19,640 Speaker 1: industry which has existed for over hundred years. I mean, 1809 02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:22,680 Speaker 1: there are ripper tours taking place whilst the murders are 1810 02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:28,040 Speaker 1: are happening. You know, ripper tours aren'to modern invention. People. 1811 02:02:28,200 --> 02:02:31,160 Speaker 1: There was a waxworkshell on Whitechappel High Street at the 1812 02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:33,720 Speaker 1: time of the Ripper murders. This is an industry which 1813 02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:37,800 Speaker 1: started in and has continued the pace ever since, and 1814 02:02:37,880 --> 02:02:42,200 Speaker 1: now we have films and movies, and we have franchises 1815 02:02:42,280 --> 02:02:47,840 Speaker 1: like Assassin's Create the video game which references the Rapper. 1816 02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:49,520 Speaker 1: You can play as Jack the Ripper if you want to. 1817 02:02:49,960 --> 02:02:54,920 Speaker 1: And there are numerous Ripper solution histories, and there are 1818 02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:58,840 Speaker 1: Ripper novels, and um, you know, I have a Ripper 1819 02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:02,120 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper game. You can get rapp Jack the 1820 02:03:02,200 --> 02:03:08,080 Speaker 1: Ripper themed T shirts, you know, all sorts of things, Um, 1821 02:03:08,520 --> 02:03:13,040 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper if you want to. Um. But the 1822 02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:15,400 Speaker 1: fact that so many facts in the case of disputed 1823 02:03:15,520 --> 02:03:17,720 Speaker 1: like like, for example, just a number of victims, how 1824 02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:19,440 Speaker 1: many were there? Were there? Five? Were? The six? Were 1825 02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:22,360 Speaker 1: the eight? Were? Nine? Were? Were there more? The writing 1826 02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:27,400 Speaker 1: on the wall in Galston Street graffiti, the Ripper letters themselves. 1827 02:03:27,440 --> 02:03:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, whether the Dear Boss or from Hell or 1828 02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:31,960 Speaker 1: any of the others are real or not, all of 1829 02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:34,240 Speaker 1: those things. I mean, we can keep on revisiting the 1830 02:03:34,320 --> 02:03:38,000 Speaker 1: case in the hope of finding new evidence, or more accurately, 1831 02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:43,440 Speaker 1: we can look for new interpretations of old evidence. But 1832 02:03:44,360 --> 02:03:46,480 Speaker 1: I kind of think it's worth saying this again. But 1833 02:03:47,120 --> 02:03:50,240 Speaker 1: more than this, successive popular representations of Jack the Ripper 1834 02:03:50,320 --> 02:03:52,960 Speaker 1: have kind of recast the killer for their own age. 1835 02:03:53,480 --> 02:03:58,000 Speaker 1: So currently Jack has become sort of Mr Ordinary, a 1836 02:03:58,200 --> 02:04:02,600 Speaker 1: mundane every day a killer hiding him side. And I 1837 02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:05,720 Speaker 1: think that's interesting because he's like the modern terrorists who 1838 02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:08,960 Speaker 1: we don't notice until he draws his knife or he 1839 02:04:09,040 --> 02:04:12,920 Speaker 1: reveals he's wearing a suicide. So I think it's the 1840 02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:15,720 Speaker 1: ability of Jack to fit in where we want him to. 1841 02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:19,600 Speaker 1: And of course we all love the past, and we 1842 02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:23,520 Speaker 1: love the Victorians because they kind of seem very close 1843 02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:25,160 Speaker 1: to us. I mean, they're only a hundred or so 1844 02:04:25,360 --> 02:04:27,960 Speaker 1: years ago. You know, there are people alive who were 1845 02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:33,640 Speaker 1: alive in almost alive in the Victorian period UM. And 1846 02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:38,400 Speaker 1: my grandmother was born um at the turn of the century. 1847 02:04:38,400 --> 02:04:41,200 Speaker 1: I mean she she's passed away now, but she's you know, 1848 02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:43,960 Speaker 1: she could tell me things from her mother which were 1849 02:04:43,960 --> 02:04:48,680 Speaker 1: about Queen Victoria's jubileean things. It seems close, but it's 1850 02:04:48,760 --> 02:04:52,200 Speaker 1: so different. And in Jack's London there are things we'd recognize, 1851 02:04:52,240 --> 02:04:55,720 Speaker 1: but they're all kind of I want to say, swathed 1852 02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:57,840 Speaker 1: in a sort of gas, like a sort of mystic 1853 02:04:57,960 --> 02:05:02,800 Speaker 1: mystic missed in a smoke that kind of swirls around 1854 02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:05,280 Speaker 1: and giving that kind of touch of Gothic horror. That's 1855 02:05:05,320 --> 02:05:10,440 Speaker 1: so much part of our way of viewing that period. Um. 1856 02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:13,960 Speaker 1: So I don't think we'll ever be able to conclusively 1857 02:05:14,160 --> 02:05:19,320 Speaker 1: prove who Jack the Ripper was, um, at least not 1858 02:05:19,400 --> 02:05:21,480 Speaker 1: be able to prove to a standard that you could 1859 02:05:21,560 --> 02:05:26,680 Speaker 1: prosecute somebody in a port in England today. But that 1860 02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:30,400 Speaker 1: kind of sense of mystery of wanting to work out 1861 02:05:30,440 --> 02:05:33,720 Speaker 1: who it was, and then spinoffs from that that keep 1862 02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:37,680 Speaker 1: the story going. So organizations like the White Chapel Society 1863 02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:41,560 Speaker 1: are people who have moved on from just identifying the 1864 02:05:41,640 --> 02:05:44,560 Speaker 1: Ripper trying to They're now interested in the victims. They're 1865 02:05:44,600 --> 02:05:48,280 Speaker 1: interested in the streets, the buildings, the social history, the 1866 02:05:48,360 --> 02:05:54,040 Speaker 1: popular culture of the time, that that the riplication is 1867 02:05:54,120 --> 02:05:56,840 Speaker 1: so much more than it was even twenty years ago. 1868 02:05:56,880 --> 02:06:00,680 Speaker 1: I think. I mean, I'm planning a conference in two 1869 02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:05,320 Speaker 1: thousand and twenty two if we ever get through lockdown. Um, 1870 02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, I want to have an international conference at 1871 02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:12,120 Speaker 1: Northampton that brings people who are amateurs rheologists as we 1872 02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:15,400 Speaker 1: might call them, Whitechappel Society and their their their groups 1873 02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:19,080 Speaker 1: together with serious academics like you know some I like 1874 02:06:19,200 --> 02:06:22,560 Speaker 1: you the walk of It or you know, um, some 1875 02:06:22,680 --> 02:06:25,720 Speaker 1: of the people that have researched, who have researched things 1876 02:06:25,760 --> 02:06:28,720 Speaker 1: like prostitution and crime, and bring those people together to 1877 02:06:28,840 --> 02:06:34,400 Speaker 1: have a conversation because they get pro fascinating mm hm um, 1878 02:06:34,760 --> 02:06:39,200 Speaker 1: and you just to kind of sew things up for us. Um. 1879 02:06:40,640 --> 02:06:44,120 Speaker 1: I read your Jack in the terms torso murderous book 1880 02:06:44,520 --> 02:06:48,040 Speaker 1: as one of those studies that does look at Jack 1881 02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:52,080 Speaker 1: as or the killer, because there is noough Jack as 1882 02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:57,560 Speaker 1: one of those kind of everyman figures, someone who wasn't 1883 02:06:57,640 --> 02:07:01,520 Speaker 1: one of those three stereotypes, but who instead was at 1884 02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:04,520 Speaker 1: home and fit in and would have been recognizable as 1885 02:07:04,600 --> 02:07:10,080 Speaker 1: belonging in the East end. Um. Could you talk about 1886 02:07:10,200 --> 02:07:15,640 Speaker 1: your own thinking about why it was important to put 1887 02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:19,280 Speaker 1: that book together and explore the reasons for making an 1888 02:07:19,320 --> 02:07:23,000 Speaker 1: identification of the killer the way that you did. Yes, 1889 02:07:23,120 --> 02:07:27,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know how very aware that in under 1890 02:07:27,160 --> 02:07:29,560 Speaker 1: shadows I kind of said, you can't do this, So 1891 02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:31,680 Speaker 1: it's no point is there are much more interesting things 1892 02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:35,120 Speaker 1: to talk about. And now I wrote a book saying 1893 02:07:35,120 --> 02:07:37,720 Speaker 1: who I thought the report was. Um, I mean I 1894 02:07:37,800 --> 02:07:41,880 Speaker 1: have very particular reasons for doing that. I wrote it 1895 02:07:41,960 --> 02:07:44,600 Speaker 1: with someone else, with Andy Wise, who felt he had 1896 02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:47,160 Speaker 1: a story to tell and I wanted to enable him, 1897 02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:49,920 Speaker 1: as a former student of mine, to tell his story, 1898 02:07:50,040 --> 02:07:51,720 Speaker 1: because I think he was a struggle to get that 1899 02:07:52,480 --> 02:07:54,720 Speaker 1: out into print in the way that perhaps with a 1900 02:07:54,760 --> 02:07:57,760 Speaker 1: little bit of background behind me, I was able to 1901 02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:00,880 Speaker 1: enable him to do so. There was partly a personal 1902 02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:04,400 Speaker 1: story of allowing Andy to tell the story he wanted 1903 02:08:04,440 --> 02:08:08,240 Speaker 1: to tell. And then he'd spent many, many years researching UM. 1904 02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:12,440 Speaker 1: I always felt it was problematic to identify a killer, 1905 02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:15,760 Speaker 1: and I kind of still do. But I think Harderman 1906 02:08:15,840 --> 02:08:18,040 Speaker 1: is as good as suspect, as as any and better 1907 02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:20,560 Speaker 1: than many. And I think so. I mean, one of 1908 02:08:20,600 --> 02:08:22,720 Speaker 1: the things we concluded was if we if we tried 1909 02:08:22,760 --> 02:08:26,560 Speaker 1: to apply historical research methods and the rationale of a 1910 02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:32,080 Speaker 1: police detective who's looking for means, motive and opportunity, we 1911 02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:34,120 Speaker 1: could point the finger at a local man who we 1912 02:08:34,240 --> 02:08:37,800 Speaker 1: believed was responsible, a man involved in them trade. He 1913 02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:42,360 Speaker 1: seems to fit. So we we figured that the killer 1914 02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:45,680 Speaker 1: had to know White Chapel. He had to be able 1915 02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:49,600 Speaker 1: to move around White Chapel in Spittlefield without causing suspicion. 1916 02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:54,480 Speaker 1: UM and I had to know all these dark alleys 1917 02:08:54,560 --> 02:08:59,160 Speaker 1: and cut throughs. He had to appear to avoid police patrols, 1918 02:08:59,200 --> 02:09:01,840 Speaker 1: particularly as has more and more police were put on 1919 02:09:01,880 --> 02:09:07,080 Speaker 1: the streets, particularly following the double event. So this is 1920 02:09:07,160 --> 02:09:09,080 Speaker 1: someone who needs to know his local environment, and that 1921 02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:11,480 Speaker 1: doesn't really fit with a doctor from outside, or a 1922 02:09:11,560 --> 02:09:14,560 Speaker 1: slumming top or any of these other people. It has 1923 02:09:14,600 --> 02:09:18,120 Speaker 1: to be a local man. I think you had to 1924 02:09:18,160 --> 02:09:20,360 Speaker 1: have somebody who had a clear motive for wanting to kill. 1925 02:09:20,400 --> 02:09:22,320 Speaker 1: In many of the books I've read about Jack Ripper, 1926 02:09:22,480 --> 02:09:25,400 Speaker 1: I can't really understand why he would do the things 1927 02:09:25,480 --> 02:09:27,520 Speaker 1: he would do. That's kind of a bit that the 1928 02:09:27,600 --> 02:09:30,360 Speaker 1: writers don't tell you why would you do that? Now? 1929 02:09:30,440 --> 02:09:34,160 Speaker 1: I understand, of course that without knowing who the killer ism, 1930 02:09:34,200 --> 02:09:37,600 Speaker 1: without a confession, we can never know why somebody chooses 1931 02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:41,720 Speaker 1: to murder. Um. We think of serial killers today and 1932 02:09:42,280 --> 02:09:44,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of time spent pouring over what they 1933 02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:47,600 Speaker 1: have to say, if they can say, or they choose 1934 02:09:47,640 --> 02:09:49,280 Speaker 1: to say what they want to say, and we can't 1935 02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:52,640 Speaker 1: necessarily trust it anyway. But I feel you had to 1936 02:09:52,680 --> 02:09:55,000 Speaker 1: find a try and identify a motive, and in this 1937 02:09:55,120 --> 02:09:58,800 Speaker 1: case we found somebody who had means, motive and opportunity. 1938 02:10:00,080 --> 02:10:04,600 Speaker 1: So James Hardiman had been flagged up in a previous 1939 02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:07,040 Speaker 1: short article in a couple of short articles for a 1940 02:10:07,120 --> 02:10:10,920 Speaker 1: phiologists and and he thought he was worth investigating, so 1941 02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:14,520 Speaker 1: he set off to investigate him. And James Hardiman was 1942 02:10:14,760 --> 02:10:19,040 Speaker 1: probably a pet food salesman and someone who probably worked 1943 02:10:19,080 --> 02:10:22,240 Speaker 1: as a horse slaughterer. We accept that you can't find 1944 02:10:22,280 --> 02:10:24,280 Speaker 1: records for many of these things, so it's very difficult 1945 02:10:24,280 --> 02:10:28,280 Speaker 1: to prove, but it seems quite likely um And if 1946 02:10:28,320 --> 02:10:30,800 Speaker 1: he was a horse slaughterer, if he was involved in 1947 02:10:30,840 --> 02:10:34,040 Speaker 1: the meat trade, he was probably familiar with or operate 1948 02:10:34,560 --> 02:10:37,440 Speaker 1: or he was probably familiar with or working for a 1949 02:10:37,560 --> 02:10:40,600 Speaker 1: company called Harrison Barber in the eighteen eighties because they 1950 02:10:40,840 --> 02:10:45,360 Speaker 1: entirely dominated horse saughtering and horse slaughtering. You know, it 1951 02:10:45,440 --> 02:10:50,720 Speaker 1: might seem like a niche occupation, but London is entirely 1952 02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:54,600 Speaker 1: powered by horses. In the nineteenth century. There are thousands 1953 02:10:54,680 --> 02:10:59,400 Speaker 1: of horses carrying carts, people riding horses, pulling carriages, hands 1954 02:10:59,480 --> 02:11:03,520 Speaker 1: and cabs. Everything is horse drawn. We talk about horsepowering cars, 1955 02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:08,000 Speaker 1: but this is literally horsepower. And horses get sick and 1956 02:11:08,320 --> 02:11:10,880 Speaker 1: they get old, and when they get old and sick, 1957 02:11:11,240 --> 02:11:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, they don't go and live in some nice 1958 02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:17,120 Speaker 1: little paddocks somewhere on the outskirts of London. They're slaughtered, 1959 02:11:17,800 --> 02:11:21,000 Speaker 1: and their flesh and their bones and all their bits 1960 02:11:21,040 --> 02:11:24,240 Speaker 1: and pieces are turned into other products like blue and 1961 02:11:24,560 --> 02:11:26,680 Speaker 1: pet food and all sorts of other things, and sometimes 1962 02:11:27,320 --> 02:11:33,640 Speaker 1: Dickens suggested human food. So it's kind of ubiquitous. And 1963 02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the man pushing a cart run the street selling captives 1964 02:11:37,360 --> 02:11:39,680 Speaker 1: everyone and know who was but no one really see 1965 02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:42,320 Speaker 1: him because he was just that guy, you know, that 1966 02:11:42,440 --> 02:11:45,960 Speaker 1: strange guy, probably a bit weird. So that's kind of 1967 02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:49,000 Speaker 1: why he's having in plain sight. And as for motive, 1968 02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:54,960 Speaker 1: we believe that Harderman had contracted syphilis, probably from a prostitute. 1969 02:11:55,320 --> 02:11:57,440 Speaker 1: He would have passed up to his wife, who passed 1970 02:11:57,440 --> 02:12:00,920 Speaker 1: it to their child, and their own a child who died, 1971 02:12:01,000 --> 02:12:03,040 Speaker 1: and then his wife died in the hospital. She was 1972 02:12:03,120 --> 02:12:05,320 Speaker 1: in London for a long time, so he had plenty 1973 02:12:05,320 --> 02:12:08,480 Speaker 1: of opportunity. He lived in White Chapel, he lived in 1974 02:12:08,600 --> 02:12:12,400 Speaker 1: Henning Street, His family lived in Hambury Street where any 1975 02:12:12,480 --> 02:12:15,480 Speaker 1: Chapman was killed. He lived right next door to where 1976 02:12:15,520 --> 02:12:18,040 Speaker 1: any chapman was killed by that court, so he was 1977 02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:23,520 Speaker 1: right at the heart of the killing zone. And we 1978 02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of extrapolated that to think that perhaps Hardyman was 1979 02:12:26,760 --> 02:12:29,320 Speaker 1: not just responsible for the White Chapel murders, but we 1980 02:12:29,360 --> 02:12:31,720 Speaker 1: also believe he could be connected to the four Torso 1981 02:12:31,880 --> 02:12:36,560 Speaker 1: murders that occurred in London between May seven and September 1982 02:12:36,680 --> 02:12:40,920 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty nine. And in total, we argue that that 1983 02:12:41,120 --> 02:12:45,680 Speaker 1: Harderman is probably responsible for thirteen murders and three more 1984 02:12:45,800 --> 02:12:49,440 Speaker 1: fatal attacks over a period of nearly four years. He 1985 02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:53,960 Speaker 1: died in December eight He was only thirty two. And 1986 02:12:55,240 --> 02:12:58,200 Speaker 1: Alice Mackenzie is the last victim in the series, dying 1987 02:12:58,560 --> 02:13:05,560 Speaker 1: in February UM and her death is looks like a 1988 02:13:05,680 --> 02:13:08,640 Speaker 1: tired killing. You know that that she she almost survives 1989 02:13:08,680 --> 02:13:10,760 Speaker 1: at least, and comes upon her bodies has had a 1990 02:13:10,840 --> 02:13:13,200 Speaker 1: throat cut and nothing else has been done to I 1991 02:13:13,280 --> 02:13:19,280 Speaker 1: think I concluded that James Hardyman is as good as 1992 02:13:19,320 --> 02:13:24,160 Speaker 1: suspect as many and I think you know, you can 1993 02:13:24,240 --> 02:13:29,040 Speaker 1: criticize quite a lot of our case, um wides quite 1994 02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:34,920 Speaker 1: a lot of my writing, but he certainly bears close examination. 1995 02:13:35,560 --> 02:13:38,000 Speaker 1: But we're not going to know who the ripper was. 1996 02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:40,040 Speaker 1: No one is going to be satisfied who the ripper 1997 02:13:40,280 --> 02:13:42,720 Speaker 1: was for the quite simple things. As soon as you 1998 02:13:42,800 --> 02:13:45,880 Speaker 1: decide who the ripper was. And we agree that kills 1999 02:13:45,920 --> 02:13:49,120 Speaker 1: the industry, or or it kills one branch of the industry. 2000 02:13:51,680 --> 02:13:55,640 Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around 2001 02:13:55,680 --> 02:13:58,920 Speaker 1: after this short sponsor break for a preview of what's 2002 02:13:58,960 --> 02:14:07,960 Speaker 1: in store for next week. It's a very hard life 2003 02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:13,000 Speaker 1: that the people were living at that time, particularly in 2004 02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:15,760 Speaker 1: the East End. But an event like a murder captures 2005 02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:20,160 Speaker 1: the witnesses and the investigators in that moment of time 2006 02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:24,320 Speaker 1: going about their day to day lives, and they're things mains. 2007 02:14:24,480 --> 02:14:29,040 Speaker 1: As I said, mainstream histories don't often tell you. For example, 2008 02:14:29,120 --> 02:14:32,640 Speaker 1: there were lots of horses, lots of them. What did 2009 02:14:32,720 --> 02:14:35,160 Speaker 1: you do if your horse was injured in an accident 2010 02:14:35,840 --> 02:14:39,360 Speaker 1: or if it dropped dead in the street? And how 2011 02:14:39,480 --> 02:14:43,880 Speaker 1: dirty were those streets are washed with horse urine and worse? 2012 02:14:45,120 --> 02:14:47,000 Speaker 1: And what was it really like to travel in a 2013 02:14:47,160 --> 02:14:50,640 Speaker 1: handsome cab rocking along like a ship tossed in a storm. 2014 02:14:50,920 --> 02:14:53,600 Speaker 1: So we you know, all of that is sort of 2015 02:14:53,680 --> 02:14:57,160 Speaker 1: stuff that you don't normally find out about. Even the 2016 02:14:57,240 --> 02:15:00,800 Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes story have you have homes rolling along in 2017 02:15:00,840 --> 02:15:03,520 Speaker 1: a handsome cap, but we don't actually get told when 2018 02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:22,560 Speaker 1: it was really like Unobscured was created by me Aaron 2019 02:15:22,640 --> 02:15:25,920 Speaker 1: Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh 2020 02:15:26,040 --> 02:15:29,760 Speaker 1: Thane in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing 2021 02:15:29,840 --> 02:15:31,800 Speaker 1: for this season is all the work of my right 2022 02:15:31,880 --> 02:15:35,200 Speaker 1: hand man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed 2023 02:15:35,240 --> 02:15:39,160 Speaker 1: the brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, 2024 02:15:39,320 --> 02:15:42,440 Speaker 1: source material and links to our other shows over at 2025 02:15:42,520 --> 02:15:47,880 Speaker 1: history unobscured dot com, and until next time, thanks for listening. 2026 02:15:55,360 --> 02:15:57,520 Speaker 1: Unobscured is a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron 2027 02:15:57,600 --> 02:16:00,720 Speaker 1: Monkey for More podcast for my heart Radio, because heart Radio, app, 2028 02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:03,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2029 02:16:06,000 --> 02:16:06,040 Speaker 1: H