Speaker 1: I made a grandiose announcement to my management and agents
Speaker 1: that I would be quitting acting. My acting coach yelled
Speaker 1: at me and said, don't be stupid. You're doing great.
Speaker 1: This is what an actor's life is. It's a series
Speaker 1: of minor accomplishments and tons of rejection. So this is
Speaker 1: being an actor. You're doing it. So I said, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll do one more year, and that was the year
Speaker 1: that I got the audition for Pam on the Office.
Speaker 1: This is Jenna Fisher. I played Pam Beasley. Hi, everybody,
Speaker 1: welcome back. Here we are. We're back baby the Office
Speaker 1: Deep Dive. I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today you will
Speaker 1: be hearing my conversation with Jenna Fisher. Let me tell
Speaker 1: you something. Jenna and I bonded during the run of
Speaker 1: the show. We were both nerds for television, and we
Speaker 1: would have long conversations about television and what we were
Speaker 1: doing in television. In a way, those conversations are what
Speaker 1: led me to want to do this podcast. Conversations that
Speaker 1: I had over the years with Jenna and recently since
Speaker 1: I started this podcast. And she obviously is the grand Puma.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the right phrase of podcast. Her
Speaker 1: and Angela obviously a host and produced Office Ladies. Jenna
Speaker 1: and I, over the last couple of years have been
Speaker 1: bonding once again over the office, what the office means
Speaker 1: today in the cultural zeitgeist, and she and I have
Speaker 1: had lengthy conversations about that very subject. And today you're
Speaker 1: going to get to be a fly on the wall.
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to hear it. She is
Speaker 1: one of the most insight full, incisive, smart uh women
Speaker 1: that I know, and I'm so excited to talk about
Speaker 1: the thing that we both love, the office. So here
Speaker 1: she is, Jenni Fisher, Bubble and squeak, I love it.
Speaker 1: Bubble and squeaker, Bubble and squeaker cookie. Every moon lived
Speaker 1: over from the nubb before. Oh how are you? What
Speaker 1: is this? I don't know? How are you you? Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, it's happening. You can see I got all
Speaker 1: dressed up. Please in my in my hat and puffy coat.
Speaker 1: I are we beginning? Have we begun? I mean you're ready? Looks?
Speaker 1: Officially have papers and a don't computer? In a computer?
Speaker 1: Do you use a you don't use a computer? During
Speaker 1: my podcast, I use papers and angel uses notes. Note cards. See.
Speaker 1: I can scroll here, I can scroll through things, and
Speaker 1: I can skip on interesting things. But you're staring right
Speaker 1: in my eyes while you do it, and jess or yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't have to do this. Yeah, that's so
Speaker 1: loud and messy, and I was very distracted by that.
Speaker 1: It's slightly weird to be stared out while someone's hand
Speaker 1: is like scrolling a car. You won't see it, well,
Speaker 1: I won't. I won't. I'm not going to scroll through
Speaker 1: fifteen pages. Wow, fifteen pages. Listen, there's a lot here.
Speaker 1: This is a big day. It's a really big day. Okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So two thousand and three, yep, what were you doing
Speaker 1: before the office? I had been at this point finally
Speaker 1: making a living as an actor for one year. I'd
Speaker 1: been in Los Angeles over seven years, but I was
Speaker 1: finally all of my living from just acting. I had
Speaker 1: done a pilot. You get paid a lot to do
Speaker 1: a pilot, so that was a big thing. But the
Speaker 1: pilot wasn't picked up. So I made a grandiose announcement
Speaker 1: to my management and agents that I would be quitting acting.
Speaker 1: I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't take the rejection.
Speaker 1: I just was putting my heart out there, and I
Speaker 1: just thought, I'm going to become a vet technician. I
Speaker 1: was very sure this is true, this is true. I
Speaker 1: don't remember this. I looked into it. It's a two
Speaker 1: year program. It's very full time. And my manager, Naomi Odenkirk,
Speaker 1: she said to me, Jenna, will you give us one
Speaker 1: more year? I mean, you're so close, you really are.
Speaker 1: You don't understand. This is what it is. My acting
Speaker 1: coach yelled at me and said, don't be stupid. You're
Speaker 1: doing great. This is what an actor's life is. It's
Speaker 1: a series of minor accomplishments and tons of rejection. So
Speaker 1: this is being an actor. You're doing it. So I said, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll do one more year. And that was the year
Speaker 1: that I got the audition for Pam on the Office.
Speaker 1: By the way, I was also starting down my vet
Speaker 1: tech you were going. I was working with an animal
Speaker 1: rescue group and I was taking care of cats in
Speaker 1: my own home. I was learning how to do things
Speaker 1: like fluids and all kinds of medical things. I did
Speaker 1: not know this. Yeah, I was trapped neutering and releasing
Speaker 1: cats in the wild. Oh my word. Then Alison Jones
Speaker 1: called and asked me to audition for the Office. Now,
Speaker 1: I had been auditioning for Allison Jones for five years.
Speaker 1: So the first thing I went on a general meeting
Speaker 1: with Alison and it was a great meeting. And Allison
Speaker 1: called me in to audition for a one line role
Speaker 1: on Freaks and Geeks. Right, I didn't get it. Then
Speaker 1: Allison called me to audition for Undeclared, which was a
Speaker 1: Jet Apatow show, for one line, and I got it,
Speaker 1: and that one line led to a second episode where
Speaker 1: I had two lines. So this was my first recurring role. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is okay, but this is all you know a
Speaker 1: while ago, right, I think I also threw Allison got.
Speaker 1: My very first speaking role on television was for Spin
Speaker 1: City the Charlie Sheen Years. Okay, So those were some
Speaker 1: a few of my ways that Allison had been in
Speaker 1: my life and she was great. She also called me
Speaker 1: in for like a Steven Spielberg miniseries that I bombed.
Speaker 1: It went nowhere. I was horrible. She said, maybe drama's
Speaker 1: not your thing, and then yeah, she said, you know
Speaker 1: it's You're gonna be fine. Don't worry. I'm still going
Speaker 1: to call you in for other things, but maybe drama's
Speaker 1: not your thing, so very quickly. My Alison Jones story
Speaker 1: was I moved to LA right before The Office started,
Speaker 1: and I knew the British version of the Office very well,
Speaker 1: and I knew they were doing an American version. I
Speaker 1: was like, this is the show that I must be on.
Speaker 1: And so I went to my agent at the time
Speaker 1: and I said, Okay, they're looking for people who are
Speaker 1: not known, and they said, this is a direct quote.
Speaker 1: They said, they're looking for unknown people, but not like you, unknown,
Speaker 1: not like totally. But my manager he kept calling and
Speaker 1: calling and calling, and I went and I met with Phillis,
Speaker 1: then I met with Alison, and then I ended up
Speaker 1: doing that. Well, so here's the thing that little caveat
Speaker 1: in the casting call that said unknown actors only. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was why this was my big break, right, And
Speaker 1: this was also why I had been so frustrated and
Speaker 1: wanted to give up, because I would go through these
Speaker 1: long audition processes for television shows and I would get
Speaker 1: as far as the on camera test part, and then
Speaker 1: they would give it to Alison Hannagan. Alison Hannagan got
Speaker 1: like three parts that I was four. I could not
Speaker 1: break through Alison Hannagan. But I was this unknown actor
Speaker 1: and I had absolutely nothing to offer a bill board
Speaker 1: on Sunset Boulevard. I had, you know, no name recognition, right,
Speaker 1: So I couldn't get these big lead parts until the office,
Speaker 1: when finally the thing that had been working against me
Speaker 1: was my gift, which was that I was unknown. Right.
Speaker 1: And now, what do you remember about the day of
Speaker 1: Did you see anybody else? There any other people that
Speaker 1: you knew at the time or that ended up being cast,
Speaker 1: or was there anything specific about that day? Well, I've
Speaker 1: seen those casting sheets that Allison showed us at the
Speaker 1: end of the series, and I saw all the various
Speaker 1: well known now well known people who came in to
Speaker 1: read for the different parts, and none of those people
Speaker 1: were at my casting call that I remember, but I
Speaker 1: would neither. I was just very focused on my audition, Right,
Speaker 1: can we play that clip? You have a clip? I
Speaker 1: hope they get rid of me because then I might
Speaker 1: actually get off my ass and do something, because I
Speaker 1: don't think it's many little girls dreams to grow up
Speaker 1: and be our receptionist. And I don't know what I'm
Speaker 1: going to do, but whatever it is, it's got to
Speaker 1: be a career move, not just another arbitrary job. And
Speaker 1: Jim's advice was that it's better to be at the
Speaker 1: bottom of a ladder that you want to climb than
Speaker 1: halfway up one you don't. Was that my audition? Yes,
Speaker 1: that's insane. Do you remember that? I mean, was that
Speaker 1: was that you? Or was that was that scripted? That
Speaker 1: was scripted? Okay? So I had a monologue that was
Speaker 1: scripted that that talking head, right. I also did a scene.
Speaker 1: I did the scene where Michael fires Pam and she
Speaker 1: calls him a jerk, where he fake fires her as
Speaker 1: a joke, and then I had a just improvised interview
Speaker 1: with Greg. Greg Daniels was there at my first audition.
Speaker 1: I went, I guess straight to producers as they call it.
Speaker 1: So Alison and Greg were there, and I remember Greg
Speaker 1: being very ringing his hands like in a like a
Speaker 1: fun like he couldn't believe he's going to get to
Speaker 1: start this project and he's so excited, and and I
Speaker 1: just remember the way he was looking at me. It
Speaker 1: was very curious, kind of like, huh, she's not doing
Speaker 1: much as she m interesting. That's so well, So I'm
Speaker 1: going to start talking about myself again because it's ultimately
Speaker 1: everything is about me. My thing was I knew that
Speaker 1: Kevin was the part that I should have, and Alison
Speaker 1: Jones is brilliant, but she had me reading for Stanley,
Speaker 1: and so I read Stanley as if it were Kevin. Ah,
Speaker 1: And then I left the room thinking, well, I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: and sure enough she ran after me and said, oh,
Speaker 1: we had this other part that we want you to
Speaker 1: look at, and so then that's how that happened. Oh
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Yeah, Um, the test process, how is that? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So normally when you test for a show, you just
Speaker 1: perform your scenes live in front of a conference room
Speaker 1: full of executives. But we were told that because the
Speaker 1: camera was such an essential part of our show and
Speaker 1: relating to the camera was so important, that they wanted
Speaker 1: to do an on camera series of test scenes with
Speaker 1: the final four actors for each part. So they called
Speaker 1: us into an actual office building for two days and
Speaker 1: they mixed and matched us and they taped us doing scenes.
Speaker 1: And it was great because we were able to give
Speaker 1: those looks to camera. We were able to react when
Speaker 1: we noticed the camera was there when we thought it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It really was such a huge element of the show.
Speaker 1: Greg's other argument for doing it that way was that
Speaker 1: the show was small in its acting, and the moments
Speaker 1: that played the biggest were small moments, and he didn't
Speaker 1: really feel like auditioning in a conference room was going
Speaker 1: to give the executives the right feel for what he
Speaker 1: was going for what the show was. Yeah, totally genius.
Speaker 1: And now, what are some of the things that you
Speaker 1: remember that were different in the way that the pilot
Speaker 1: was shot from say, a normal television show. I remember
Speaker 1: on the pilot, everyone in the cast had to be
Speaker 1: hair and makeup ready and at their desks starting at
Speaker 1: seven thirty am, and we would work quote unquote for
Speaker 1: thirty minutes. And Ken would walk around with just a
Speaker 1: camera operator and a boom and record us at our desks.
Speaker 1: Just be roll of us at our desks, right, And
Speaker 1: what did you think of the pilot when you saw it?
Speaker 1: What did I think of the pilot when I saw it?
Speaker 1: I must have watched that pilot a gazillion times. I
Speaker 1: have a very embarrassing story about watching them. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1: So there was a friend of a friend who was
Speaker 1: this big deal manager and he really wanted to see
Speaker 1: the pilot, and I thought, well, I have a DVD
Speaker 1: of the pilot. Maybe I'll take it to his office.
Speaker 1: But I was so afraid of it leaking that I
Speaker 1: insisted that he watched it while I sit across from him.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't leave the office without the DVD. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you can watch it, but you have to watch it
Speaker 1: right now while I wait, what was I doing? I
Speaker 1: was nobody. I don't know. Isn't that so weird? That amazing,
Speaker 1: so bizarre. But he really wanted to see it because
Speaker 1: everybody in town wanted to see the pilot. Everyone wanted
Speaker 1: to see it. They were dying to see what this
Speaker 1: American version of the British show was going to be. Now, Brian,
Speaker 1: do you remember coming to my house and watching the
Speaker 1: pilot and sitting on my floor and gathering all together? Yes?
Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. Angela was talking to me about it
Speaker 1: recently and she was like, well, I remember you couldn't
Speaker 1: get the sound to work on your sound system And
Speaker 1: I was like really, and she was like yeah. And
Speaker 1: I remember my dog got out and I had to
Speaker 1: chase my dog down the street. That's another story, but
Speaker 1: but that was sort of the beginning of us all
Speaker 1: gathering together. To watch the show every week, which is
Speaker 1: what we did. That's so I totally forgot about that.
Speaker 1: So so we're in a real office space and we
Speaker 1: are doing this fake work, b rule stuff, like all
Speaker 1: of these elements to try to create sort of the
Speaker 1: ultimate reality. Yeah, and to me that there's something interesting. Well,
Speaker 1: what would you say your training was as an actor?
Speaker 1: As an actor, yeah, I have a Bachelor of Arts
Speaker 1: in theater from a little liberal arts college in rural
Speaker 1: Missouri called Truman State. So this job was a dream
Speaker 1: job for me as a theater geek. To be able
Speaker 1: to do this acting exercise where I'm at my disk
Speaker 1: excuse me very much, but I'm acting, was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it was everything my training had prepared me for. That's yeah,
Speaker 1: see that's and so that was you and then Rain
Speaker 1: and I knew each other a little bit from theater
Speaker 1: as well. And then you've go aunt Angela and Oscar
Speaker 1: and Steve, who are like improv yes, right, and then
Speaker 1: we got bj and Craig Robinson that are stand up guys. Primarily,
Speaker 1: to me, there was something about the creation of the
Speaker 1: ensemble that there were all of these funny people, but
Speaker 1: they all sort of had a different perspective, and there
Speaker 1: was something about the reality, sort of the ultra reality
Speaker 1: of being stuck in this room and doing this work, yeah,
Speaker 1: and always being there together that that sort of helped
Speaker 1: meld us together in a weird way. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: if we had all been improv performers, it would have
Speaker 1: been a shit show, right, Or if we were all
Speaker 1: theater people, we would have been taking all of ourselves
Speaker 1: too seriously. The mix was important, like the way all
Speaker 1: of the ingredients came together. And I think you know,
Speaker 1: another thing that was really unusual was that we were
Speaker 1: all always at work, because if you weren't in a scene,
Speaker 1: you were in the background of a scene. We would
Speaker 1: joke sometimes we'd be like, do none of us go
Speaker 1: to the bathroom? We never leave for lunch, Like we're
Speaker 1: always all at our desks. By season six or seven,
Speaker 1: people were going to the bathroom a little bit more
Speaker 1: from Time to Die, yes, more often that all right, Well,
Speaker 1: Theodore Nerd, how is Pam different from Jenna? Well, it
Speaker 1: would not take me three years to tell Jim that
Speaker 1: I had feelings for him. I mean I would have
Speaker 1: dumped Roy much quicker. I would have been like, who's
Speaker 1: this guy? Because not just that. I mean, when we
Speaker 1: meet Pam and Jim, they've already been working together for
Speaker 1: a couple of years, and then it's still three more
Speaker 1: years after that before they figure some stuff out. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm much more ambitious, much more of an entrepreneurial spirit
Speaker 1: than Pam. However, the way that we are very similar
Speaker 1: is that it took me a long time like Pam
Speaker 1: to figure out how to speak up for myself. Like Pam,
Speaker 1: I spent many years sitting at a reception desk, wishing
Speaker 1: that I was doing something else. I literally sat at
Speaker 1: reception desks and daydreamed about the day that I might
Speaker 1: be an actor. And Pam sits at that desk and
Speaker 1: she daydreams about being artistically expressed. And so I could
Speaker 1: really relate to that, that feeling of I want something
Speaker 1: more than what I'm doing, but I don't know how
Speaker 1: to get it exactly. But I will say that as Jenna,
Speaker 1: I was taking much more actions in my life to
Speaker 1: get out of my situation than I think Pam did.
Speaker 1: It took Pam a lot longer, but she had a
Speaker 1: lot more forces against her than I did. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure Pam's mom was saying things to her,
Speaker 1: or her parents were saying things to her like, honey,
Speaker 1: you can do anything you want to do. If you
Speaker 1: want to be an artist, you go be an artist.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was the messaging that I was getting
Speaker 1: from my parents. You gotta go for it. Do what
Speaker 1: you love in life. Even if you aren't successful, you'll
Speaker 1: be glad you did it. I mean, I had those
Speaker 1: kind of parents. They didn't support me financially as an actor,
Speaker 1: but they supported my spirit and they were always there
Speaker 1: for that pep talk. And I mean, I don't even
Speaker 1: know if I can explain how valuable that was. And
Speaker 1: it was clear to me that Pam didn't have some
Speaker 1: of those tools in her toolbox. Do you think that
Speaker 1: Greg and the writing staff, because in a way they
Speaker 1: were masterful about this, right about finding things, finding things
Speaker 1: that were true to you the actor, and incorporating them
Speaker 1: into the story. Do you think that Pam's want and
Speaker 1: desire to be an artist and to be seen in
Speaker 1: that way? Do you think that there's anything that was
Speaker 1: taken from you? I'm not sure because if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: I feel like the character on the British Show had
Speaker 1: some minor desire to be an artist doesn't. Doesn't the
Speaker 1: Tim character give Don some drawing pencils at some point?
Speaker 1: Or am I making that up? And I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I don't know, But I do know that Greg used
Speaker 1: to ask me questions about my thoughts, that that was
Speaker 1: so unusual, the fact that several of our writers were
Speaker 1: also actors, so they were down with us, they were
Speaker 1: observing us all the time. I mean, you, Angela and
Speaker 1: Oscar single handedly created that insane dynamic between the three
Speaker 1: of you through I believe improvisation when you were bored
Speaker 1: in the background, and so then you've got Mindy, BJ
Speaker 1: and Paul watching you guys, and then taking that back
Speaker 1: up to the writer's room and flushing it out totally.
Speaker 1: It was genius that Greg did it that way. But
Speaker 1: then more than that, Greg truly believed that no one
Speaker 1: knew our characters more than we did, and he would
Speaker 1: ask us questions all the time. He cared about our opinions.
Speaker 1: He wanted to know all the time, what do you
Speaker 1: think Pam would think of this situation? He was always
Speaker 1: very curious. He also knew that I worked in offices
Speaker 1: and that I had worked as a receptionist, and he
Speaker 1: used to ask me questions, what's the craziest thing one
Speaker 1: of your boss has ever made you do? And I
Speaker 1: can't remember if I told this story to him before
Speaker 1: or after, But there's that episode where Michael is refusing
Speaker 1: to sign all of his documents until the end of
Speaker 1: the day. He just keeps putting it off and putting
Speaker 1: it off and putting it off. And I told Greg
Speaker 1: I had this boss once that every month, at the
Speaker 1: end of the month, he had to turn in this
Speaker 1: boiler plate report and he would put it off and
Speaker 1: put it off. And one time he put it off
Speaker 1: so long I had to drive to lax because that
Speaker 1: was the last FedEx pickup. And I was so pissed.
Speaker 1: And Greg was like he loved those stories. He loved
Speaker 1: whenever we told him stories like that, and they would
Speaker 1: get used. Okay, so we shoot the pilot, we eventually air.
Speaker 1: It's striking to me that you started like December ish
Speaker 1: right of like two thousand and three into January. We
Speaker 1: shot the pilot in February of two thousand and four. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's thirteen months before anything gets on the air.
Speaker 1: It's not so I mean, it's well, I've got a
Speaker 1: story about that. We shot the pilot in March of
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and my thirtieth birthday was March
Speaker 1: seventh of two thousand and four, and I did not
Speaker 1: invite any of you to my thirtieth birthday party because
Speaker 1: I assumed I would never see you again. I was
Speaker 1: so sure that making the pilot was the end of
Speaker 1: our show, that it would never get picked up, not
Speaker 1: because it wasn't good, but because it was so good
Speaker 1: and so weird and so special that no one would
Speaker 1: give us a chance. I thought, well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: All the word on the street was just have fun
Speaker 1: making your pilot, that's all it'll be, right, And then similarly,
Speaker 1: have fun making your next five episodes. They'll probably just
Speaker 1: be yours to own on a DVD enjoy, right. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So then we go back, We make these five episodes
Speaker 1: in a complete bubble, and then it was not until yeah,
Speaker 1: like that following what was it? Was it like April
Speaker 1: of two thousand and five they started March of two
Speaker 1: thousand and five, they finally start airing. Yes, and they
Speaker 1: had to tell us by May if we were picked
Speaker 1: up for the second season, then yes, crazy, yeah, crazy,
Speaker 1: And we were a disaster, like a ratings disaster. Well,
Speaker 1: if it were today, we would be a ratings hit
Speaker 1: right off the bat, because right, but yes, we were
Speaker 1: a ratings disaster. But then you know what happened, and
Speaker 1: I know exactly why we got picked up. It was
Speaker 1: that forty year old Virgin came out. Yeah, forty year
Speaker 1: old Virgin came out and one hundred percent. I can
Speaker 1: hear in my imagination a conference room filled with NBC
Speaker 1: executives all saying, we aren't going to be the assholes
Speaker 1: who let Steve Correll, the number one box office comedy,
Speaker 1: start out of his television contract. Right, we're picking up
Speaker 1: this show for six episodes of season two. Again, six
Speaker 1: episodes is all we got for season two. But then
Speaker 1: they really did tailor the show more to Steve, more
Speaker 1: to what Steve would be as Michael rather than as
Speaker 1: inspired by David Brent. Yeah, so what do you remember?
Speaker 1: What differences do you remember between one and two? Like
Speaker 1: artistic changes, artistic changes. I think the biggest thing I
Speaker 1: noticed was when we started season two, Steve had lost
Speaker 1: what twenty pounds are more? I don't know. He was
Speaker 1: so fit because he had gotten in shape for forty
Speaker 1: year old Virgin, and they started allowing the character of
Speaker 1: Michael to be more sympathetic. They would let him break
Speaker 1: our heart a little bit. Even in the Dundees, for example,
Speaker 1: you see a bunch of people heckel Michael, and then
Speaker 1: you see the people in the office stand up for Michael.
Speaker 1: And in the first season none of us ever stood
Speaker 1: up for Michael. We all just hated Michael. But they
Speaker 1: started to allow Steve to display vulnerability, which he's so
Speaker 1: good at. But then also you have an episode in
Speaker 1: season two, like the Client, where you see Michael start
Speaker 1: out as what seems like a total buffoon and turn
Speaker 1: into a masterful salesperson. Right, you see a reason that
Speaker 1: he actually has this job. Yes, And I think those
Speaker 1: were differences. In the first season, we just really leaned
Speaker 1: into his mean spirited buffoonery the ways he irritated us.
Speaker 1: But now in season two we were bringing out sprinklings
Speaker 1: of these very redeeming qualities in him. Or even the
Speaker 1: Halloween episode in season two where at the very end,
Speaker 1: after he's had this horrible day of having to fire someone,
Speaker 1: you see him hand out candy to these little kids.
Speaker 1: It makes me cry every time I watch it every time,
Speaker 1: Or the end of Office Olympics where he's crying because
Speaker 1: everyone is so genuinely applauding for his purchase of a condo.
Speaker 1: These little moments in each episode. There seemed to be
Speaker 1: one in each episode that was very different from season one. Right,
Speaker 1: season two, everything everything changed, Right, So we have six episodes,
Speaker 1: and then we do six episodes and then didn't we
Speaker 1: get I think four? Four more and then three more
Speaker 1: and then two. Yeah, and then what I remember very
Speaker 1: clearly was sometime after the New Year, they said, okay,
Speaker 1: you can finish twenty two, and then within two weeks
Speaker 1: we had an order for season three, a full order.
Speaker 1: I did not remember that. Yes I do. Do you
Speaker 1: think I'm wrong? No, I don't think you're wrong. I
Speaker 1: always wondered because to me, I did not feel like
Speaker 1: I had job security until Steve won the Golden Globe. Well,
Speaker 1: there was that, and then there was iTunes. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: started doing the video iPods. The Christmas episode went to
Speaker 1: number one like that. Yeah, and the Christmas episode on
Speaker 1: TV was our highest rated show. So it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, from December to January suddenly things changed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then after season two we won the Emmy. Yes,
Speaker 1: is there anything specific about that? Night that you remember.
Speaker 1: I remember that Emmy's because at this point now we
Speaker 1: had become a bit of a critical darling. So in
Speaker 1: the beginning, the critics hated us, right, and they only
Speaker 1: compared us to the British show. And then we had
Speaker 1: turned them around now in time for this Emmy Awards,
Speaker 1: and so being at these awards, we were the new
Speaker 1: kids on the block. We were super fresh. The critics
Speaker 1: loved us, but we were still not a front runner
Speaker 1: to win, and so it was a complete surprise when
Speaker 1: we won. Many people there had no idea who we were.
Speaker 1: They didn't recognize us. It's funny. I remember, I remember
Speaker 1: running into the cast of Scrubs and they were like
Speaker 1: the big deal guys, and we were the newbies and
Speaker 1: they were super nice to us, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's Scrubs. Cut to like eight years later,
Speaker 1: I remember and being at an awards show and running
Speaker 1: into the next batch, the new freshman class of TV right,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, oh, I'm Scrubs. Now we're Scrubs.
Speaker 1: We're We're like the kids who've been around the block
Speaker 1: a few times. Totally. See mine wasn't mine, was Porsche
Speaker 1: d ROSSI Oh, you ran Intoe at the first Emmy's
Speaker 1: super nice, so great. Yes, and that's what I thought. Um,
Speaker 1: going back a little bit, another thing that I think
Speaker 1: made us really unique and also sort of that ultra
Speaker 1: realism was Scranton. Yeah, and making the decision for it
Speaker 1: to be Scranton. Well, and I know that they did
Speaker 1: a lot of research when it came to just the
Speaker 1: things that were around the office, local radio stations, hers
Speaker 1: potato chips from Pennsylvania, We're in our vending machine, really
Speaker 1: creating this realism, the Lackawanna County coal mine, coal mine,
Speaker 1: things like that, you know, working all that stuff into
Speaker 1: the show. I know it really always broke Greg's heart
Speaker 1: that we never shot an episode in Scranton. Every year
Speaker 1: they would toy with the idea of taking us there,
Speaker 1: and it was just always cost prohibitive. I know Greg's
Speaker 1: dream was that we would shoot the Saint Patrick's Day parade.
Speaker 1: This is so crazy that you're saying this. That was
Speaker 1: literally when asked my biggest regret, that was it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say the same. My biggest regret was that
Speaker 1: we never shot in Scranton. But the city of Scranton.
Speaker 1: I remember one year they were really looking into this
Speaker 1: parade idea, and they agreed to move their parade two
Speaker 1: months earlier, you know, because we would have to shoot
Speaker 1: before Saint Patrick's Day. So they were going to have
Speaker 1: their Saint Patrick's Day parade in January, and they just
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out, costwise how to get the entire cast
Speaker 1: and crew there. Right, to me, it's this weird like
Speaker 1: dichotomy thing where even though it was about Scranton where
Speaker 1: very few people had gone right on a national scale,
Speaker 1: like people don't know those places, but having those details
Speaker 1: sprinkled into me somehow translated to making it more universal.
Speaker 1: I absolutely agree with you. I think as a person
Speaker 1: who grew up in Saint Louis, Missouri, me and other
Speaker 1: people who grew up there, we so identify our city
Speaker 1: as part of us, and so it made it more
Speaker 1: universally real that we identified so strongly with the city
Speaker 1: we were in Scranton, and I think that's true of
Speaker 1: a lot of people where you grow up, right. No, absolutely,
Speaker 1: there's just I love that city and there's something about
Speaker 1: my connection to that city. Do you remember the I
Speaker 1: can't remember the year, but the presidential election right where
Speaker 1: everybody who was running somehow suddenly everybody was from Scranton, right,
Speaker 1: like Joe Biden at this Scranton connection, Hillary Clinton the office. No, totally,
Speaker 1: it was all like, oh yeah in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I
Speaker 1: used to go and visit Grandma and she would you know.
Speaker 1: It was this crazy like became the sort of cultural touchstone,
Speaker 1: like the heart of the nation is located in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: I love it. We talked about there was an interesting
Speaker 1: thing where, you know, the ultimate question is why the
Speaker 1: show is what it is now, which we'll examine in
Speaker 1: a minute. But it seems like we were writing this
Speaker 1: digital wave right like the show started. We're going to
Speaker 1: do a show about a dying industry. And at the
Speaker 1: same time that we're doing a show about a dying industry,
Speaker 1: the technological advances we ended up this wave. Well, early
Speaker 1: on you might remember a bunch of us were on MySpace.
Speaker 1: Yes we're going to discuss Yes, Well, Angela, b J
Speaker 1: and I and you did as well. We had these
Speaker 1: MySpace pages that were on our computers while we were
Speaker 1: in scenes, and we were interacting with people on my Space.
Speaker 1: We were blogging, but we were also I would type
Speaker 1: things to people like an instant message like Hey, when
Speaker 1: you watch the such and such episode, in this scene,
Speaker 1: you'll know I was typing this to you, and we
Speaker 1: just it was like before Twitter, before Instagram, before social media.
Speaker 1: It was really before Facebook. My Space was the place
Speaker 1: that there was this social interaction totally. And then there
Speaker 1: was iTunes that was huge for us. And then there
Speaker 1: were the webisodes, the first show that did that online
Speaker 1: content and obviously sort of culminating in Netflix. How do
Speaker 1: you think that the that those things help to us
Speaker 1: either reach an audience or well, I think it connected
Speaker 1: people deeply to the show. And to have the actors
Speaker 1: of the TV show that you really love interacting with you,
Speaker 1: answering your questions, caring as much as you do, it
Speaker 1: kind of makes you feel like you're part of it
Speaker 1: in a more real, intimate way. And also it was real.
Speaker 1: That connection was real. There would be times when the
Speaker 1: writers and Greg would read some Twitter feedback about an
Speaker 1: episode or a storyline, and it did affect things going forward.
Speaker 1: Give me my Remote I think was a website too,
Speaker 1: where give me my Remote? Yes? Yeah, all of there
Speaker 1: reading this stuff. Yes, the idea of these bloggers. We
Speaker 1: had a bunch of fan sites we had Office Tally
Speaker 1: dot com run by Jenny Tan and this gal Jenny
Speaker 1: did such a good job of running this website that
Speaker 1: she would we would invite her to visit the set
Speaker 1: and give her exclusives and things. And then there was
Speaker 1: Northern Attack that was based on that line from Diversity
Speaker 1: Day as Abraham Lincoln said, I will attack you with
Speaker 1: the North. Yes, Northern Attack. I love Northern, So give
Speaker 1: me my remote Northern Attack. All of these TV websites
Speaker 1: and bloggers people started blogging about us, and we were cool, right, like,
Speaker 1: oh no, totally yeah, And so this all happening for
Speaker 1: the part of something. Yeah, you were part of something.
Speaker 1: You were part of a movement in a way, and
Speaker 1: our show was part of that movement. I think I
Speaker 1: was literally laying in bed last night thinking about this. Like,
Speaker 1: if you think about the off Us as like a
Speaker 1: person or a body or something, Pam was the heart
Speaker 1: and your relationship with so many different people, well with everybody,
Speaker 1: but really those three, you know, Jim and Dwight and Michael. Yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously the relationship with Jim. Why do you think that
Speaker 1: that relationship resonated so much with audiences? Oh, I think
Speaker 1: it's the unrequited love. I think we've all been there.
Speaker 1: We've all been in love with someone who either didn't
Speaker 1: love us or couldn't love us, or because of circumstances
Speaker 1: or distance or whatever these things were were keeping us
Speaker 1: from being able to fully express our feelings. The longing,
Speaker 1: and then I think additionally the clear chemistry between the
Speaker 1: characters that you could see that they were meant to
Speaker 1: be together and you just rooted for them absolutely. But
Speaker 1: I think that there was also something about your performance
Speaker 1: and John's performance. You showed such heart and vulnerability that
Speaker 1: I think people were really rooting for you, whether they
Speaker 1: had found what they wanted to or not. Well. I
Speaker 1: think both Pam and Jim are very good people. They're polite.
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why it takes them so long.
Speaker 1: And I think you always want the good guy to win.
Speaker 1: So I think you did want them to find one
Speaker 1: another and be together. It's hopeful, right, Nothing throughout the
Speaker 1: entire history of the show brought production to a screeching
Speaker 1: halt like a big Jim Pam moment. It's true, And
Speaker 1: I say that with love and also with utter frustration. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we really really cared. I mean, John and I would
Speaker 1: fight hard for what we believed, and we were usually
Speaker 1: on the same page with Jim and Pam. Were had
Speaker 1: like a singular mind when it came to Jim and Pam.
Speaker 1: For the most part, there was often one Jim Pam
Speaker 1: moment per episode, and it was either where they're going
Speaker 1: to connect in some super special swoony way, or they're
Speaker 1: gonna misstep in some way, or where one of them
Speaker 1: gets their feelings hurt. And there was this very fine
Speaker 1: line that we had to walk all the time. So
Speaker 1: for example, shooting a scene over and over and over
Speaker 1: again where this time they can touch hands, but then
Speaker 1: we have to do one where they don't touch hands
Speaker 1: because it might be too much. When if their hands
Speaker 1: touch that might be going too far. Or do we
Speaker 1: end it with a hug or should he kiss her cheek?
Speaker 1: Before all of these little ways, how much were they
Speaker 1: allowed to literally touch one another, look in each other's eyes,
Speaker 1: swoon at each other. I mean we would We would
Speaker 1: spend hours debating and shooting alternates of these Jim Pam scenes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and ours is not an exaggeration. It is not an exaggeration. No.
Speaker 1: But what's amazing is this wasn't like mystical producers in
Speaker 1: another land talking about it. This was you and John
Speaker 1: who are in there indulgent. No, no, not at all. No.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it speaks to the two of
Speaker 1: you as artists, but I think that there's also the
Speaker 1: camera as a character. And what I recall is you
Speaker 1: and John, specifically with greg Or Ken or one of
Speaker 1: the other directors, you know, sort of two major questions,
Speaker 1: who is seeing this moment? Is the camera seeing this moment?
Speaker 1: And how does that change my behavior in this moment?
Speaker 1: And those were the things that I feel like well
Speaker 1: brought production to a screeching hold. This was one of
Speaker 1: the most fun elements of working on our show was
Speaker 1: this camera as a character because this idea that when
Speaker 1: you know the camera is filming you, it affects your behavior.
Speaker 1: It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When he knows the camera
Speaker 1: is on him, he performs for the camera. He does
Speaker 1: things like makes giant declarations and pledges of money to
Speaker 1: Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of the camera. But then
Speaker 1: when he doesn't know that the camera is shooting through
Speaker 1: the blinds, he tries to talk his way out of it.
Speaker 1: So that is so fun. To play, and similarly with
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam. How do Jim and Pam behave when
Speaker 1: they know they're being watched and observed? And then how
Speaker 1: do they behave with one another when they can't see
Speaker 1: the camera, when the camera is deep in the kitchen
Speaker 1: shooting through the blinds. I absolutely loved those nuances. Those
Speaker 1: were some of the most fun things to play with
Speaker 1: on our show. Yes, well, and when I directed, and
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying well when I directed to get
Speaker 1: in the fact that I directed. But there was a
Speaker 1: moment later on season eight Kathy lindsay broad Yeah, Kathy
Speaker 1: and Jim goes away to Florida, and Kathy's clearly trying
Speaker 1: to get the moves on him. It's taking place in
Speaker 1: Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot the only way
Speaker 1: to shoot the room was through the windows, because if
Speaker 1: the cameras were in the room, we would not have
Speaker 1: gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that we ultimately wanted.
Speaker 1: But then there was a phone call with Pam. You
Speaker 1: with Pam that happened there and I remember sitting you
Speaker 1: weren't Invalencia, you were probably home. Did I not come?
Speaker 1: Because I have a very vivid memory of being there
Speaker 1: when Jim was a smug bedbug? Was that your episode
Speaker 1: Smugbedbug Sug? I have a memory of watching Rain and
Speaker 1: John crack up as John was a smugbedbug. I think
Speaker 1: that you came for the phone call. But we had
Speaker 1: a huge conversation about you were involved in what the
Speaker 1: interaction was between Kathy and Jim, because John wanted you
Speaker 1: involved and you wanted to be involved, and how that interaction,
Speaker 1: what that meant for your relationship with Jim. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: I think it just speaks to everybody wanting to get
Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, we cared on this show very deeply.
Speaker 1: Everybody cared very very much. And I think that started
Speaker 1: with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show and you
Speaker 1: could tell and he delighted. He delighted in getting it right.
Speaker 1: And we would shoot something and we would all look
Speaker 1: over at the monitors at Greg and see if he
Speaker 1: was doing his little handclap with his little smile and
Speaker 1: he puts his eyes up in the air. Oh you know,
Speaker 1: because that's when we knew we nailed it. And he
Speaker 1: was such a great barometer for that. When did you
Speaker 1: start realizing or noticing that Jim and Pam's relationship was
Speaker 1: becoming so important to people outside and was it infringing
Speaker 1: on your real life? Well, realizing that my friend John
Speaker 1: and I couldn't go anywhere in public together as friends
Speaker 1: or else people would lose their minds. They didn't know
Speaker 1: how to deal with that. They didn't know how. And
Speaker 1: even today, people don't know how John and I are
Speaker 1: not a couple in real life, right. They don't understand it,
Speaker 1: And I don't know how to explain it because it's
Speaker 1: a little bit like telling kids there's no Santa. It's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to break anyone's heart, right, So it's hard,
Speaker 1: It's really hard. You should just explain that he's a
Speaker 1: real pain in the ass in a life. Why would
Speaker 1: you not just say that? But that's weird. I have to.
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to justify why John and I,
Speaker 1: which you aren't actually in love. And the bottom line
Speaker 1: is we were playing characters. But I know that if
Speaker 1: people think of us as John and Jenna, then it's
Speaker 1: destroying some of the magic of Jim and Pam. But
Speaker 1: I'm not Pam in real life, and he's not Jim
Speaker 1: in real life, and in real life we're mismatched. He
Speaker 1: is perfectly matched with Emily, and I'm perfectly matched with Lee,
Speaker 1: and you know us all both, And in fact, I
Speaker 1: feel like if anyone wants to marry anyone, they want
Speaker 1: to marry Emily or Lee, they don't want to actually
Speaker 1: marry me or John. Is that a good description of
Speaker 1: why John and I are not a matched in real
Speaker 1: life because you know us both. Yes, I think that
Speaker 1: that's a great description. I also think, yeah, you both
Speaker 1: were playing characters, and I think that you and you've
Speaker 1: expressed today how different you are from Pam and John
Speaker 1: is different from Jim. People perceive you to be that
Speaker 1: even you know, if someone has a couple of minute
Speaker 1: interaction with me, they're not going to mistake me for Kevin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think that's so true of like and as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader. She's your best friend
Speaker 1: in two minutes. She's so not the bitchy Angela Martin
Speaker 1: that she plays on the show. Oh come on, But
Speaker 1: I do see how John and I the line is
Speaker 1: a little more blurred, Like you can have an interaction
Speaker 1: with John and I and think maybe that we really
Speaker 1: are just like Pam or just like yam. Yes, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite moment or moments between the
Speaker 1: two of you that you got to play together. Yes.
Speaker 1: One of my first favorite moments is when we are
Speaker 1: up on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and
Speaker 1: you and Rain are doing the fireworks out in the lawn.
Speaker 1: And that was super special because we had this skeleton crew.
Speaker 1: Everyone had gone home for the day and up until
Speaker 1: this point we had mostly only ever been shooting in
Speaker 1: a big group in the office with lots of people,
Speaker 1: and here it was just me and John on some
Speaker 1: lawn chairs. It was a summer evening, like a warm breeze, candlelight.
Speaker 1: Greg is up on the roof, just a couple of
Speaker 1: crew members were up on the roof, and it was
Speaker 1: like so peaceful up there, the five of us, and
Speaker 1: then watching you and Rain, who I believe we had
Speaker 1: no way of communicating with none, Yeah, just setting off fireworks.
Speaker 1: It just all felt really real and lovely. So that
Speaker 1: moment is one of my favorite moments. And what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're talking about
Speaker 1: Greg and the other two crew members up there, because
Speaker 1: then you just scribing sitting there with John. That's why
Speaker 1: people think you're in love. It's a warm summer breeze.
Speaker 1: We were sitting in lawn chairs on the roof. But
Speaker 1: some of it like it's true. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: Matt Son is up on the roof and Greg is
Speaker 1: there and we're all just none of us can believe
Speaker 1: or on the roof and we had to take this.
Speaker 1: They had this old, rickety, rusted ladder that was on
Speaker 1: the side of the roof that everybody else climbed up,
Speaker 1: but since John and I were cast members, we weren't allowed.
Speaker 1: So they've like fork lifted us up there on this
Speaker 1: wearing a weird harness. It was very funny. Yes, were
Speaker 1: you worried when Pam and Jim got married that that
Speaker 1: was going to screw things up? I wasn't because we
Speaker 1: had been together now for a couple of seasons, right,
Speaker 1: So I think the question was can they get together
Speaker 1: and be a stable couple and will we still care?
Speaker 1: And and I remember having a conversation with Greg where
Speaker 1: Greg was like, well, you know what's going to lose
Speaker 1: people is if we just keep manufacturing these affairs and
Speaker 1: these you know, weird ways that we keep them apart.
Speaker 1: That's exhausting and it's not realistic. And so what we're
Speaker 1: going to need to do is bring them together and
Speaker 1: then give them obstacles to overcome as a couple. So,
Speaker 1: rather than obstacles that keep them from being a couple,
Speaker 1: give them obstacles to break through as a couple, like
Speaker 1: Pam wanting to go to art school, or Jim wanting
Speaker 1: to start his own business, or having their first kid
Speaker 1: or whatever these things were, that they were going to
Speaker 1: have to weather the storm together, that that would be
Speaker 1: more interesting and more realistic, and people loved it. I
Speaker 1: think that's so smart, so smart, because but he said,
Speaker 1: you know what's not going to be satisfying is if
Speaker 1: they get together at the end of season nine after
Speaker 1: multiple affairs and like all this, like everyone's going to
Speaker 1: be like, yay, I guess you know, congrats. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy your marriage with all your horrible baggage. Totally right,
Speaker 1: that's not a happy ending. I'd never smart. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: So I talked again about sort of that emotional core. Dwight,
Speaker 1: talk to me a little bit about the relationship between
Speaker 1: the two of you and how that changed and evolved.
Speaker 1: I mean, you were with Jim adversaries and made you
Speaker 1: crazy forever, and then ultimately by the end, he says
Speaker 1: that you're his best friend. Dwight does Dwight does you know?
Speaker 1: I think it's that first episode The Injury, when Pam
Speaker 1: has that line Dwight is kind of my friend, But
Speaker 1: I think there's other things. You know, Jim and Pam
Speaker 1: spends so much time teasing Dwight, and I think even
Speaker 1: go too far. A few times. In my rewatching of
Speaker 1: the show, I think there's a few times when we're like,
Speaker 1: actually a little cruel to him that make me cringe
Speaker 1: and I feel like, oh if that wasn't our best moment.
Speaker 1: But I appreciate because we allow our characters to I mean,
Speaker 1: we don't all every day have perfect moments, right, right,
Speaker 1: But it's so hard for me to think about Pam's
Speaker 1: relationship with Dwight without thinking about my relationship to Rain. Right.
Speaker 1: Rain is a deeply soulful person. He's also like a
Speaker 1: curmudgeonly old man. He's real cranky sometimes and on set
Speaker 1: he would be hilarious. Do you remember the time Do
Speaker 1: you remember the time that he declared, oh my god,
Speaker 1: it was so funny. We were getting ready to shoot,
Speaker 1: and he said, hold on, wait, just hold on, everybody,
Speaker 1: hold on for a second. I have an announcement. Everyone,
Speaker 1: on Mondays, you do not need to ask me how
Speaker 1: my weekend was anymore. All right, every single person asked
Speaker 1: me how my weekend was, just so it was fine.
Speaker 1: We were like, where is this comming from? Right? And
Speaker 1: I talked to him about this and he goes, Jenna,
Speaker 1: that is not true. I said that on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I said, only asked me how my weekend was on Mondays.
Speaker 1: No more of this bleeding into Tuesday Mondays. And he
Speaker 1: went crazy because you and I know what he was
Speaker 1: talking about, because it's five o'clock in the morning and
Speaker 1: every single person that you pass is like, hello, good morning,
Speaker 1: how is your weekend? Yes, And he what he was
Speaker 1: saying was like, you don't have to talk to me.
Speaker 1: We just saw each other on Friday night. We're good,
Speaker 1: We're good. Yes, It's so true. So he would be
Speaker 1: like that guy on this set. It was like so funny.
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, in moments of deep crisis,
Speaker 1: I have phoned him. I had a job offer that
Speaker 1: was going to take me out of town and would
Speaker 1: uproot my family for a period of time that I
Speaker 1: really wrestled with the decision. I called him and he
Speaker 1: counseled me. He is he has that in him, a
Speaker 1: type of counselor, and I value him so deeply in
Speaker 1: my life. But then like like he'll call me up
Speaker 1: and he'll be like, do you want to go to lunch?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, I mean, because you sound like
Speaker 1: you want to go so bad, Like is it a
Speaker 1: chore or do you want to go? He's like, no,
Speaker 1: I want to lunch with you. Like all right, let's
Speaker 1: go to lunch. And then you go to lunch, and
Speaker 1: I was just sort of like, are you liking our lunch?
Speaker 1: Are we having a good lunch? How are you tell
Speaker 1: me about you? And all yeah? So funny. But then
Speaker 1: like if I were to do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So it's like very much like the Pam Dwight where
Speaker 1: Pam will like be like, oh, I love Dwight. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go say something nice to him, and then he'll
Speaker 1: just be like, Pam something about knives, something about snakes
Speaker 1: or bears, and she's like yeah, okay, right, okay, But
Speaker 1: so I guess M. I feel deeply loved by Ray,
Speaker 1: and I think Pam Fille deeply loved by Dwight as well,
Speaker 1: like they had a real bond, They really cared for
Speaker 1: one another eventually eventually. Yeah. Well, and it's similar to
Speaker 1: your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where that
Speaker 1: relationship started and him fake firing you to him leaving
Speaker 1: and you having sort of that final moment with him.
Speaker 1: What did he say to you? Well, it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much what he said to me. Paul Fieke directed that
Speaker 1: episode Goodbye Michael, and we were at the airport and
Speaker 1: Paul Fike said, Jenna, I want you to just run
Speaker 1: up and just say goodbye to Steve, your friend Steve.
Speaker 1: This is your last scene with him, so say goodbye.
Speaker 1: We're not going to use the sound, We're just going
Speaker 1: to have a spy shot on you. So I thought, okay.
Speaker 1: So I ran up to Steve and I just told
Speaker 1: him all the ways I was going to miss him
Speaker 1: and how grateful I was for his friendship and the
Speaker 1: privilege of working with him. And I'm sobbing, and he's sobbing,
Speaker 1: and we're hugging, and and I didn't want to let
Speaker 1: him go, and I didn't want the scene to end.
Speaker 1: And then finally Paul fi you know, says cut and
Speaker 1: he was like, Jenna, that was that was brilliant. Can
Speaker 1: you do it again, but just a little faster because
Speaker 1: it had been like five minutes. He was like, we
Speaker 1: just need to tighten it up a little because they
Speaker 1: wanted him to actually walk away and they had one camera. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was only one shot that they couldn't edit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is so great. I was like, just tighten it
Speaker 1: up a little, but sweetie, great job. I guess he
Speaker 1: could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah, I've in thinking back. Honestly,
Speaker 1: when he Steve leaving to me was almost more emotional
Speaker 1: than the show ending. Well, the thing is is that
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the character of Michael that we were losing.
Speaker 1: We were losing the captain of our ship, Steve Carrell.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that I can say enough how
Speaker 1: important him as our leader was, because just the kind
Speaker 1: of man he is, his work, ethic, his kindness, his generosity,
Speaker 1: there was no ego, and to be led with that,
Speaker 1: along with Greg's heart, it was very frightening to me
Speaker 1: that we were losing him. He was our compass that
Speaker 1: pointed us north and kept us all in line, and
Speaker 1: I really worried, what's it going to be like on
Speaker 1: set without him? We just all agreed he was the
Speaker 1: most important person on set, and we always wanted the
Speaker 1: day to be easy for him. He had the most lines,
Speaker 1: he had the most work, he had to drive the show,
Speaker 1: and we all just collectively we're there to support him.
Speaker 1: And he was so generous. I mean I remember, I
Speaker 1: remember directors would come in who were new and they
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to find Steve, but he'd just be
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch. By reception, We'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's right there, because he was so He wasn't like
Speaker 1: a and I'm here kind of guy, you know, he
Speaker 1: was just And I say this because after working on
Speaker 1: the Office, I've worked on many projects where this is
Speaker 1: not the case, and I see how that infects a
Speaker 1: group of people when there is someone who is leading
Speaker 1: the ship, who is insecure and needs a constant ego boost,
Speaker 1: And it makes me even more grateful for how Steve
Speaker 1: was and how he is still. I also remember Will
Speaker 1: Farrell coming in and guesting with us, and then I've
Speaker 1: done movies with Will Ferrell and he's the same way,
Speaker 1: and I always thought, Wow, they really have a competition
Speaker 1: for greatest person to work for work with Steve and
Speaker 1: Will just like nicest man in Hollywood. But so my
Speaker 1: biggest fear was even just what is the onset vibe
Speaker 1: going to be like without Steve? Not to mention what
Speaker 1: stories are we going to tell? Who are we without
Speaker 1: this leader? And I'll say it here and this is
Speaker 1: the only time I've ever really publicly said this, but
Speaker 1: It's always disappointed me that we didn't trust in our
Speaker 1: core office group enough to continue the show without bringing
Speaker 1: in what I think we thought we needed, which were
Speaker 1: these big guest actors to fill steve shoes. And I
Speaker 1: always felt like fear drove some decisions to that. I
Speaker 1: does that make sense? It does make sense. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: always wondered just what would that season have been like
Speaker 1: like what we then got with season nine, where we said, no,
Speaker 1: we're enough, the bench is deep enough, the talent is there.
Speaker 1: We can keep the ship afloat with what we have, right.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about that season eight, No,
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
Speaker 1: fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
Speaker 1: else helming because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, that's right.
Speaker 1: Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
Speaker 1: who's always angling to be the boss, but who does
Speaker 1: not actually have the authority. Right, So if you make
Speaker 1: him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
Speaker 1: does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
Speaker 1: be and that was the question who should be the boss? Well? Right,
Speaker 1: this was the conversation who should be the boss? I
Speaker 1: mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
Speaker 1: people asking me who I thought should be the boss?
Speaker 1: And I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know. Right.
Speaker 1: They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, like
Speaker 1: does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
Speaker 1: think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
Speaker 1: think Jim was the most I mean, he was lazy,
Speaker 1: he was the most well suited to technical levels, should
Speaker 1: be promoted to that job? Correct? Right? Yes, in terms
Speaker 1: of his interaction with people, his ability to lead and
Speaker 1: sort of inspire people. But I think then that messes
Speaker 1: up storylines in a way that for sure. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I guess you know when you when when we get
Speaker 1: back to this, it is like, okay, when we need
Speaker 1: some other force of nature to come in and be
Speaker 1: the boss of these people so that they can stay
Speaker 1: being them, right, Yeah, I don't know that was That
Speaker 1: was tricky, but we made it through and we got
Speaker 1: some great episodes that season. Yes, and then we went
Speaker 1: into season nine where we sort of just didn't have
Speaker 1: a boss for a while. Remember Andy was our boss,
Speaker 1: but then he got lost on the boat and then
Speaker 1: we just sort of we were like, oh, here's an answer.
Speaker 1: It's an empty office. There's no regional manager anymore. What
Speaker 1: did you think about bringing the sound man, breaking the
Speaker 1: fourth wall and bringing Brian onto the show? Was there
Speaker 1: a conference? There was a major conference, many conferences, conferences.
Speaker 1: So for season nine, John and I were producers. We
Speaker 1: were given those titles because we were brought in to
Speaker 1: really discuss the Jim Pam arc of the final season,
Speaker 1: and so we spent a lot of time up in
Speaker 1: the writer's room talking about all the beats of that
Speaker 1: story and what it would be. I did many on
Speaker 1: camera auditions with various Brian's to be the boom operator,
Speaker 1: and then many discussions about who exactly it should be
Speaker 1: there was this one actor who was just phenomenal, who
Speaker 1: just looked so much like John Krasinski that we had
Speaker 1: a whole discussion about whether or not he should look
Speaker 1: too much like John Krasinski, if that would feel like Pam,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and like all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and so anyway, I liked that storyline. I thought it
Speaker 1: was really interesting because another part of season nine was
Speaker 1: that we were going to release the documentary that you
Speaker 1: were going to see how it affects these people's lives
Speaker 1: for them to see themselves in a documentary, And I
Speaker 1: think that's really great closure for the show as well. Perfect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it was an underrated ending of the show.
Speaker 1: I felt like Greg very clearly had a story that
Speaker 1: he wanted to tell. Yeah, And I think that when
Speaker 1: you're live that your anticipation. There's almost nothing that can
Speaker 1: meet your expectations. But I think if you go back
Speaker 1: and you watch it, you see just the brilliance of
Speaker 1: how he tied it all up. Yeah, truly. When did
Speaker 1: you find out that Steve was coming back for the finale?
Speaker 1: Did you know early on? I feel like I almost
Speaker 1: always knew because John and I had been up in
Speaker 1: the writer's room talking about the finale, and we were
Speaker 1: sworn to secrecy. So I feel like I knew for
Speaker 1: a pretty long time, and I knew that there was
Speaker 1: a lot of trickery going on that he was not
Speaker 1: written into the final script. At the final table read,
Speaker 1: there was a scene between Dwight and Steve, but it
Speaker 1: was written between Dwhite and Creed, and Creed read the
Speaker 1: lines at the final table read, and that was because
Speaker 1: they did not want anyone at the network to know
Speaker 1: that Steve was coming back. It was a huge secret.
Speaker 1: They didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah, to please it
Speaker 1: yea and to ruin the surprise of Steve being in
Speaker 1: the finale. Yeah. What's your memory from that were? Do
Speaker 1: you more laughy or cry? Like in the table reads? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think I cried a little bit every single day.
Speaker 1: I was a crier at the table read. I was crying.
Speaker 1: That was really emotional that last table read. Chris Workman,
Speaker 1: our camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last
Speaker 1: table read that Angela has blown up in her house
Speaker 1: on her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment
Speaker 1: right after we said the last line, and then I
Speaker 1: remember that Pam has the last line of the show,
Speaker 1: and they had originally scheduled it so that that would
Speaker 1: be the very last thing we shoot, and I think
Speaker 1: it was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
Speaker 1: we don't all want to be wrapped, and then Jenna
Speaker 1: has this talking head and Greg said something like, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we gotta have the last scene be with everybody. And
Speaker 1: after I finished my talking head, we shot the b
Speaker 1: roll of me taking the picture off the wall and
Speaker 1: all of us walking out the door. And we did it,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many times, five or six, but
Speaker 1: we would take the thing off the wall and all
Speaker 1: walk out, and then we would all stand off camera
Speaker 1: by the elevator, all of us, many of us crammed
Speaker 1: by this elevator, and there would be this moment where
Speaker 1: we would wait to see if they were going to
Speaker 1: say cut going again or cut that's a rap. I'm
Speaker 1: getting choked up just thinking about that, because those seconds
Speaker 1: of waiting, and every time I just wanted them to
Speaker 1: say cut going again, because I knew when they said
Speaker 1: that's a rap, that that was a rap. That was it.
Speaker 1: I'd never shoot the office again. And when they said
Speaker 1: that's a rap, I just burst into tears and started
Speaker 1: hugging the closest people that I could find, and it
Speaker 1: was really it was just really, really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: will you play that. I thought it was weird when
Speaker 1: you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
Speaker 1: I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
Speaker 1: a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point
Speaker 1: to me? That's that's what Greg thinks it was about.
Speaker 1: That there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What
Speaker 1: do you think it was about, Oh, Greg Daniels, I
Speaker 1: think that's what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also,
Speaker 1: I always thought selfishly, because it was my job to
Speaker 1: view the show through my character. It's not lost on
Speaker 1: me that when Pam was ready to break free of
Speaker 1: dunder Mill when the show ended, So I always kind
Speaker 1: of thought it was the journey of a girl becoming
Speaker 1: a woman, finding herself going out into the world. When
Speaker 1: we meet her, she's trapped behind this desk and she
Speaker 1: sort of slowly moves to sales and then finds the
Speaker 1: man she loves and starts this family, and then when
Speaker 1: she's really ready, she really fights against leaving and then
Speaker 1: when she's ready to go, it's all over because the
Speaker 1: documentary doesn't stop when Michael leaves, so it's not really
Speaker 1: a documentary about Michael Scott. You know, they decided to
Speaker 1: stop making the documentary when Pam leaves. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Do you think The Office could be made today? No,
Speaker 1: I don't think it could. Why. Well, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it could be made today. It's a good question. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, something I want to point out, or
Speaker 1: a question I want to ask you is people always
Speaker 1: ask us if we're all really friends in real life,
Speaker 1: and I don't even think saying that we're friends in
Speaker 1: real life accurately communicates how deeply I feel for you
Speaker 1: and everybody. It's like a love of family, Like I
Speaker 1: can't explain it. Do you think if we'd made this
Speaker 1: show in the age of smartphones and whatnot, that we
Speaker 1: would be as deeply connected? Like don't you think like
Speaker 1: the circumstances that's of us being trapped on that set
Speaker 1: for the first season with no working computers, no phones,
Speaker 1: no internet, nothing, just a troop of actors and artists
Speaker 1: trapped in a room for twelve hours a day playing.
Speaker 1: We ever absorbed ourselves and our phones or emails or
Speaker 1: other work or anything. And I think that that lent
Speaker 1: itself to part of the magic. And I just wonder
Speaker 1: if if you tried to put us all in a
Speaker 1: room today, I don't know, wouldn't we just have our
Speaker 1: phones and our desks? I think that maybe, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Maybe I think that we for sure. What I think
Speaker 1: is we were a collective group of people with differing
Speaker 1: backgrounds and experiences and training. It was like we were
Speaker 1: an old time theater troupe, yes stuck together. And we
Speaker 1: weren't all famous. No, we came from a place of
Speaker 1: just wanting to do good work. Well. When Lee and
Speaker 1: I got married, I had invited a girlfriend of mine
Speaker 1: that I'd gone to high school with from Saint Louis,
Speaker 1: and she was so excited to come to the wedding
Speaker 1: and she said, are they're going to be famous people there?
Speaker 1: You know? And I said, no, not really, We're not
Speaker 1: really friends with a lot of famous people, you know.
Speaker 1: And then she's like, well, are the cast members from
Speaker 1: the office going to be there. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there'll be there, and she was like, well they're famous,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. But
Speaker 1: even now today, I don't think of us that way.
Speaker 1: I still always think of us as the people in
Speaker 1: the room before anyone cared or anyone knew who we
Speaker 1: were totally and so being on that journey together as well,
Speaker 1: I think really bonded us. But I don't know if
Speaker 1: we could make the show today. It's really hard to say.
Speaker 1: It was such a moment in time. Can you make
Speaker 1: a show today with total unknowns? I don't know. Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley kind of, there's other shows. Well, let me ask,
Speaker 1: why do you think the show is more popular now
Speaker 1: than it was when WIT was on. My answer is
Speaker 1: very simple. The show is excellent. It's it is absolutely
Speaker 1: brilliantly executed, and it holds up because it's just that good. Really.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's funny. I started this podcast with Angela, Yes,
Speaker 1: where we watch an episode of the Office. We started
Speaker 1: from the beginning and Office ladies, yes, yes, we break
Speaker 1: it down. This was not my this is not a
Speaker 1: plug moment. We were about to go there in a minute,
Speaker 1: but anyway, go ahead. Now. What I was going to
Speaker 1: say is Angela and I are doing this podcast and
Speaker 1: we have to watch an episode of the Office, and
Speaker 1: then we discuss it. So I've been watching the show
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. Had you watched the show since
Speaker 1: they aired? No, you had not. I had seen a
Speaker 1: few here and there. I had seen the Dinner Party.
Speaker 1: I had I had been in a trailer on a
Speaker 1: job and I had a teeny tiny television mounted to
Speaker 1: the wall of my trailer. It was so small. She's
Speaker 1: not joking right now. She just held up her fingers
Speaker 1: and showed three inches. I don't think the tele now,
Speaker 1: it's more like five inches. It was smaller than a
Speaker 1: laptop screen. It was very tiny, Okay, and it's so
Speaker 1: I was, So that's what she said. I was so
Speaker 1: tickled by it that I took a picture and I
Speaker 1: sent it to Steve and John and Ed and Angela
Speaker 1: and all of us who had been in that scene
Speaker 1: where we were laughing so hard at Michael's tiny flat
Speaker 1: screen TV. And then that made me want to watch
Speaker 1: that episode. So then I went and watched the Dinner
Speaker 1: Party episode, and then a few examples of things like
Speaker 1: that where you're flipping through when you an episode comes
Speaker 1: on or something like that. But no, I have not
Speaker 1: seen most of these episodes since they aired, right, So
Speaker 1: it's been really cool for me. And I have to say,
Speaker 1: I really get why people are so excited about the show. Like,
Speaker 1: as I watch it again, I'm really watching it almost
Speaker 1: as a fan. Yes, And it's weird that I'm on
Speaker 1: it in some ways. When I'm watching myself, I've always
Speaker 1: thought it was oh really, Ran, I always thought it
Speaker 1: is that a fact. I don't know. But before I
Speaker 1: started doing that, I was on Greg to do a
Speaker 1: reunion special or revive the office in some way, selfishly
Speaker 1: because I just want to work with all you all again,
Speaker 1: and because I know Steve has a really good idea,
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, let's get Steve's idea going. Come on, Greg,
Speaker 1: come on, Greg, you got to do it. Well. Now
Speaker 1: that I've been rewatching the show, I wrote Greg and
Speaker 1: email recently and I said, Greg, Um, I don't think
Speaker 1: you should reopen the show. It's it is so perfect
Speaker 1: just as it is, Like, I don't think we should now.
Speaker 1: I was such a champion for doing it for so long,
Speaker 1: and now I'm realizing maybe it's exactly perfect just as
Speaker 1: it is, and you don't want to have this weird
Speaker 1: extra seven years later episode that we made. Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Well, see here you do have. Here's the
Speaker 1: beauty is I have the ability to edit out whatever
Speaker 1: I say right now. I have no interest in him
Speaker 1: in doing it in a reunion episode. Yes, but have
Speaker 1: you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea. It is
Speaker 1: a good idea. What if we did it in Scranton, Brian,
Speaker 1: what if that's the thing that we come back for,
Speaker 1: is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton. Steve's idea?
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I'm tempting you discuss it later. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, I think the show is just
Speaker 1: perfect as it is. Although we do have an unproduced
Speaker 1: episode pet Day. There's one episode of the office called
Speaker 1: pet Day. Well it wasn't shot that we never shot. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's right, I have the script. I have let you do.
Speaker 1: In fact, I signed scripts, obviously to give away to charities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a gigantic box, yeah, of scripts that because
Speaker 1: we would get multiple per week. It was not great
Speaker 1: for the environment, but we would get more. And they're
Speaker 1: in my garage in boxes. And I reached in and
Speaker 1: grabbed one and it was pet Day, pet Day, And
Speaker 1: I thought, what if I had signed that? And I mean,
Speaker 1: thank goodness. I looked at what the title was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that could have been true. I could have gotten
Speaker 1: in trouble for that. Well. I said to Greg, what
Speaker 1: if we do a special where we just do a
Speaker 1: staged reading of pet Day and we all come together
Speaker 1: and we read pet Day. But wasn't there a reason
Speaker 1: we didn't do Pet Day? Animal cruelty? I believe was
Speaker 1: the reason we didn't do pet Day Because there's like
Speaker 1: some avil bird death in it or something. I can't
Speaker 1: remembered up having a bird death and a porcupine in
Speaker 1: Dwight's desk. We did, and Angela throws a cat and
Speaker 1: a cat and one gets frozen. And no, there's Greg
Speaker 1: must not like animals. Is there anything else, anything else
Speaker 1: that you want covered that you feel like we didn't?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's so much I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I don't know you did, you were very good. I
Speaker 1: can't think of anything, really. I think something that's really
Speaker 1: interesting to talk about too, because you talk about how
Speaker 1: there were like the theater people and the comedians, and
Speaker 1: then there were the improv people, but there were also
Speaker 1: all of these ways that we were weirdly connected like that.
Speaker 1: Phyllis and I both grew up in Saint Louis, as
Speaker 1: did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois, which
Speaker 1: is basically Saint Louis. And then also our ad Rusty
Speaker 1: Mahmud grew up in Saint Louis. So there were four
Speaker 1: of us Saint Louis AND's. Then there were a bunch
Speaker 1: of those Boston guys. You've got John and Steve and
Speaker 1: BJ and Mike scher yep. Then the fact like b
Speaker 1: J and John went to the same high school, Angela,
Speaker 1: Ed and I went to the same high school. You
Speaker 1: and Ed went to the same high school. And Angela
Speaker 1: and Oscar were in an improv group together, and she
Speaker 1: walked on set and was like, oh my god, Oscar,
Speaker 1: you got cast in this. It was a complete shock
Speaker 1: to her. She'd done improv with Kate. So there were
Speaker 1: these ways where we'd all been kind of circling each
Speaker 1: other in this weird way, and then all finally came together.
Speaker 1: There were so many coincidences in how we were connected totally. Yes,
Speaker 1: I remember shooting a scene for webisodes and was in
Speaker 1: the annex camera on me. I was shooting a talking
Speaker 1: head and suddenly I saw Ed Helms walking behind the
Speaker 1: I was like ed, what what are you? And he
Speaker 1: was there to meet with Greg and about joining the show.
Speaker 1: This was between season two and three. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Yeah, I love you, Oh, Brian,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming. I hope this has been some fun.
Speaker 1: I could talk for hours about our show. I love
Speaker 1: that you're doing this because I want to hear what
Speaker 1: everybody says. Yeah, well there you go. I love you,
Speaker 1: I love you. Thank you. That is a rap on
Speaker 1: Jenna Fisher here at the office deep dive, Jenna, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing your time with us. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say this to your face, but
Speaker 1: I think that we all know Kevin was the real
Speaker 1: emotional core of the office. I mean, you can keep
Speaker 1: thinking Pam, but I say it's keV Dog. But you
Speaker 1: were so great here. I'm gonna let you have it.
Speaker 1: I'll even forgive the fact that you're a Cardinals Go
Speaker 1: Dodgers listeners. Thank you so much for joining us, even
Speaker 1: all your Cardinals fans. And get ready because next week.
Speaker 1: Oh it's the big one, folks. It's the big Khona,
Speaker 1: the big Cheese, the big guy upstairs, Steve Correll. Have
Speaker 1: a great week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer,
Speaker 1: Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate
Speaker 1: producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia.
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth o'lansky