WEBVTT - Die with Zero w/ Bill Perkins #1106 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.960 Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and today I'm 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:25.480 discussing Dying with Zero with Bill Perkins. So the title 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.440 of today's episode, it kind of flies in the face 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.200 of typical money advice. Around here. We talk a lot 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.320 about saving and investing, about using money as a tool 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.800 to buy yourself more freedom in the future, and at 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.880 its core, How to Money is about helping everyday folks 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.960 build wealth and develop a healthier relationship with their money. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.320 But here's the thing. A healthy money relationship, it's not 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.199 just about accumulation, it's also about intentional spending. And my 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.160 guest today, he's been one of the loudest and most 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:57.240 thought provoking voices pushing back against the idea that life 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.880 should be delayed until your seventies, right after you've squeezed 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.080 every last dollar into your net worth. So Bill Perkins, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.480 he argues, at the time, the time is the most 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:07.959 precious asset that we have, and that waiting too long 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.679 to enjoy it can be a costly mistake. His book, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.600 It's called Die with Zero, came out more than five 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.800 years ago, but it's still challenging the way people think 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.839 about money, time, and experiences. I'm genuinely pumped for this conversation, 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:21.479 So Bill, thank you for joining me today. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:23.959 Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.440 First question, what do you like to sploor? John? As 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.479 you know, we're trying to be smart, save and invest 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.520 for our future so that we have a lot of options. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.000 But you got to spend on cool stuff in the meantime. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:33.960 What's that for you right now? 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.360 Usually it's an experience with my loved ones or friends, 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.760 right friends are loved ones, so you know, where we 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.640 challenge our worldview and we have a very enriching experience. 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.080 It's generally travel. I think it's one of the few 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.080 things that you could spend money on that actually makes 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:54.200 you a richer person. And it's usually including many people 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.680 that wouldn't able to be able to afford the trip 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.960 or go with me, or you know, just just you know, 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.520 paying their way so that I can enjoy it with them. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.240 You know, I'm one of the people that likes to 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.560 go to the movies with somebody else, you know, I 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.240 think people that go to the movies alone or either 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:17.320 critics or psychos. So that is kind of where I 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.040 where I go on those type of things. 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.000 I love that. I love that being able to provide 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.320 that experience for someone else, but it also enriches your experience. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.040 And I do think an answer we get to this 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.720 question a lot is travel. But you've also, I feel 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.640 like found you've been really thoughtful about the ways you 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.239 spend money on travel to accentuate through the experience, right. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:39.920 Yeah, I mean the main thing is is like it 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.280 doesn't have to be that big of a splurge. It 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:47.320 works at all kind of kinds of to wealth levels. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.080 You can take somebody, you can travel to a comedy 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.040 store and buy your friend's ticket and you go with 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.680 a group right a games night, you know, in an 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:59.480 interesting location, paying somebody who does like those murder mysteries 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.359 to come over to your house, right and do a 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.280 murder mystery dinner at your house where everybody's trying to 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.600 figure it out. You know, those are great experiences. Travel 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.040 is just one where it's like everybody's in a new setting. 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:14.400 You get to interact and enjoy each other and the 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.720 environment almost like a real world movie, you know, real 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:24.120 life movie. And so I'm very intentional about how, you know, 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:28.280 first make sure I have the experience, and then after 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.080 that trying to like how can I get the most 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.480 out of this experience. I think people are probably better 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.160 than me at like getting the most value out of it. 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:37.880 Like if I go to Japan, they go to Japan. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.880 I'm spending twice as much, but they're having the same experience. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.880 But nevertheless, as long as you do that, you're getting 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:46.640 the value. They're probably getting the value at a better 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:47.080 rate than me. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:48.560 Does that bother you? 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.640 It used to? But like I'm on the backside of 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.480 life right Like most of the people I'm talking to, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.200 you know, they're billionaires their time billionaires. They have more 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.880 than a billion minutes to live. I'm a mere millionaire. Uh, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.000 and I have a lot of capital, and so I 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.720 can't afford to be efficient. I can't afford to miss 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.600 out right, Like there's waste is going to be part 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.680 of that, like waste by design, not necessarily I'm trying 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.279 to waste money, but like I need to be very 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.040 wise with my time, and I can be a little 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.359 bit foolish with my money. That's the state of life 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:22.560 on it. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:24.239 I feel like a lot of a lot of people 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.599 you're speaking to on this podcast, and just maybe a 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:29.320 lot of people and a lot of folks in general, 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.560 they might feel the other way around, like I have 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.280 to be incredibly called and that you even talk about 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.000 that in the beginning of your book. How this book 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:38.880 like the advice and it's not for the person who's 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.560 living paycheck to paycheck necessarily. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.640 Yeah, And and people are different phases of their life, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:44.720 your respect of their age. You know. I was at 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.440 a time where it was like, hey, you know, I 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.240 had a friend that was refreezing popcorn to save save 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.240 on popcorn, which I wrote about the book, right like 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.799 you know, like we bought the you know, we bought 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:58.560 bus tickets in advance and and and enrolled our employers 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.600 and making do the trans rotation match like we were 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:07.440 master savers at that time. And when you are hungry 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.240 and starving, the only thing you can think about is food, right, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.440 Like you're not thinking about a lavish banquet. You're just 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.080 trying to get by and acquiring food. And when you 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.359 don't have that much capital, your focus tends to be 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.120 on exchanging everything you have in order to acquire capital. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.080 And that's understandable, but we also need to think about 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.200 like our life is also running out, that time period 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.200 of our life is running out, and then like, okay, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.839 I don't have that much capital, But how am I 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:36.960 going to get the enjoyment out of this out of 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:37.760 this time period? 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.880 So what problem would you say? Die with zero is 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.200 trying to speak to and in particular for our younger 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.720 listeners in their twenties, late twenties, early thirties, who are like, Yeah, 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.560 I find myself in that place where I'm trying to 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.800 accumulate capital so that those compounding returns can work for 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.000 me and generate independence for me in the future. How 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:58.680 do I think about that dichotomy? 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.960 Yeah, I think it's trying to speak to people on 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.040 an autopilot one way or another, the spend thrift and 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.800 the miserly savor. Right, Like, what happens is that, you know, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.640 humans tend to like develop a habit and then stick 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.479 with it and they're just not really thinking about it. 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:17.440 They're just doing it. Right, So people get good at 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:18.760 their job. It's just automatic. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:19.360 Right. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:20.880 They know how to make the sales call, they know 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.160 how to program the computer, they know how to do 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.919 whatever is that they're doing. You know how to drive home, Like, 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.800 you don't even think about driving home from work, right, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.840 you just magically appear somehow, right because you're in default 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.800 mode network and that happens with saving money and spending money. Right, 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.359 You don't think about your life fulfillment at each period 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.520 in your life, and so everybody's going to have different circumstances, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.200 different amounts of capital, be at a different age. What 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.800 I really want them to think about is the purpose 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.840 of my life is fulfillment, and everything is a tool 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.799 for that fulfillment, whatever that means to me, right, whether 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.279 it's hedonistic or altruistic or some combination in between. And 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.040 money is one of those tools, and your health is 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:00.480 one of those tools. In your life is one of 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.640 those tools. And so what I want people to do 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.920 is get off autopilot and think about, Hey, during this 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.880 time period of my life, what is going to fulfill me? 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:10.640 And what resources do I have to bring to bear? 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.280 And how much of each resource should I be sprinkling 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.320 in it? Is it all my time? Is it all 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:17.720 my money? Is it a little bit of my time, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.120 a little bit of my money? And how am I 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.760 going to split these things up? And so instead of 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:26.040 going into like a specific formula or a very specific 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.600 cookbook recipe, what I'm giving people the mental models on 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.520 how to think of each period in their life and 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.800 how to answer these questions that are going to come up. 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.880 Because it's going to differ from individual to individual based 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.679 on their age, their health, their life circumstances, yes. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.880 And also what they like, you know, Like if the 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.120 most fulfilling thing for you is to play chess, I'm like, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.120 you have a different you know, spend and save category 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.560 than somebody who's the most fulfilling thing is to go 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:55.080 traveling around Africa or bicycling or hiking mountains around the globe. Right. 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.760 And so you know, a lot of times when I 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.280 talk to people about the book, they're like, oh, I 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.800 get the book, but how do you figure out what 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.360 you like? You know, Like, that's up to you, right, 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.480 you have to decide what what does your adventure here 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:08.680 on planet Earth look like? 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.840 Is your advice ever for people to want less or 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.120 to lower their expectations, because I think sometimes like I 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.720 think about my kids, even there's some entitlement there, right 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.280 that we're trying to work on, and what does it 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.160 look like then to maybe set expectations that are a 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.720 little bit lower from ourselves, because I think is that 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.240 the problem sometimes when people spend too much, even on 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:30.800 things that don't matter to them, it's because they have 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:32.040 expectations that are through the roof. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.560 I think that can be true, but don't I don't 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.319 tell that to people. What I try to get them 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.960 to do is be aware of the cost. I have 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.200 friends that are still grinding, still working hard, right giving 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.400 up their life, and I'm like, I want to point 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.120 out the cost, like you're never going to get these 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.480 forties back or fifty to fifty. You're never getting this back. 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.000 You're never getting the time back with your family, You're 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.240 never getting the time back with your kids. I want 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.120 you to consider it a cost and reweigh that out, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.480 like you you really want to be doing this. So 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.080 I think people have like kind of like these wants 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.599 and think, oh, if I want it, obviously i'm behaving. 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.079 I'm not wishing for it. If I'm wanting, I'm working 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.000 towards it. So you're working for this thing at a cost. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:16.920 And everything has a cost, And so I want people 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.760 to think about those costs and then decide do I 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.400 really want it? And if they really want it, then 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.160 they really want it, then it's worth the cost. But 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.840 if you think about these things and you don't act 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.720 on autopilot, then you're going to have a more fulfilling life. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.840 It's been said that, and you know that's better than 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.959 almonst say, anybody else. But like the eighth wonder of 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.199 the world is compounding returns. Right, And when you think 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.400 about just for example, Warren Buffett, he's done an amazing 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.600 job of like building a ridiculous net worth and when 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.839 you look at it, the vast majority of his net 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:51.280 worth has been built since essentially traditional retirement age. Would 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.880 you say, and I know this is again kind of 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.440 pointing back to what you said individualized, but is he 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:57.080 doing it wrong? 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.440 I mean, his I don't know his private life, right, so, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.840 but his public persona it's just quite absurd to me, 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.600 you know, it's just quite absurd. I just I can't, 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.439 for the life of me see me see that as 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.240 the most fulfilling life I could have possible and for 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.160 any other human being. Right. But perhaps he's the type 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.440 of guy like his fulfillment is just sitting at a 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.720 desk and doing work and working for future charity is 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.160 basically what his life has been. He's worked all his life. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.000 He spent a lot of hours going over charts and 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.680 graphs and investing and picking et cetera. And that money 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.720 the line share that money is for future charity, which 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.240 you know, I'm not against giving charity, but he couldn't 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.080 give charity. He could have gave the money earlier and 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.280 had a bigger impact. And so to me it's absurd. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.680 But who knows. You know, Warren Buffett might have a 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.440 private life where he's just like living it up hidden 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:52.839 from everybody, you know, just having a rock and time, 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:53.280 you know. 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.720 Or maybe like he is just one of those people 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.439 who is extremely gratified by the McDonald's on the way 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.920 to work, at working most of the day watching the 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.600 numbers go up. Maybe that's what brings him joy. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.320 It's possible. I mean, you know, I have had this 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.679 conversation with friends, like my friends that I get into debates, 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:13.000 and it says, listen, if you're going to be a 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.120 heroin addict, I cannot convince you that heroin is good. 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.640 Like you're like, I have a problem with your heroin addict, right, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.880 Like you're addicted to something and it feels good, and 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.679 I'm trying to show you that the world is bigger 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.560 than what you're doing and that you would be a 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.160 happier off heroin. But you know, if Warren Buffett is 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.480 addicted to the doing air quotes. People can't see this 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.000 heroin addiction of work and charts and growth. Yeah, it's 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.400 very hard to break that. And you've heard that like 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:40.920 you have a problem with my drinking. I don't have 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.079 a problem drinking. You know that type of thing, right, 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.840 Like it's like, oh, you have a problem with you working? 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.080 This makes me happy, you know, And you're and as 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.199 a friend, I'm sitting there going, let's really think about 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:51.960 all the things that you can be doing in the 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:53.640 world and all the things you can be doing with 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.280 your time, right aside from watching balance sheet go up. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.640 And you know, once we have like a read, deep, 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:06.240 vulnerable conversation, generally I sway them. It becomes well, I 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.120 really don't know what to do. What was that that 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:09.240 that's the answer? 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.640 What was that interpersonal conversation like for you? Because at 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.760 some point there must have been like an epiphany of 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.600 sorts to say, what am I doing with my life? 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.719 And a certain amount you get a certain amount of 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.719 money and you're life you have to start to ask 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.280 those bigger, more existential questions. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.320 You know, they start to when you come truly online 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.000 and kind of like late teens, early twenties, you start 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.120 to ask these questions. And I was fortunate enough to 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.320 read this book called Your Money or Your Life. I 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.120 think a lot of the people who are savers. The 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.360 whole fire moment was launched from this book, and that 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.520 kind of accelerated those questions. And you know, I was 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.960 asking from a very macro standpoint, like why am I 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.079 chasing this amount of money? Like what is it for? 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.360 And at that age I had very immature version of 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.240 that It's for the girls and the parties, and you 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.720 know what I mean. The the brick size cell phone, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:02.520 you know what I mean? 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:04.200 Right? 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.360 Whatever it was, right like it was, it was basically 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.840 a version of a rap video, right. But you know 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.160 it got me thinking about like what is the purpose 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:13.959 of my life for? Like why do I need this money? 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:14.160 Like what? 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.040 I obviously just don't want it to have. I wanted 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.840 to have a life and what does that life look like? Uh? 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.200 And then I'm giving up hours of my time for 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.360 this money? You know, all those kinds of questions started 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:29.400 to like really swirl in my head and I wanted 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.400 to figure out like what was the optimal earnings and 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.520 what was the optimal spending pattern? And what what what 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.520 variables go into creating that, And so that's kind of 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.959 like the epiphany I had. It was kind of like macro, whoa, 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.120 what is this for? Like? What am I going to 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:46.680 do if I had ten million dollars? Why do I 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.040 need to make ten million dollars? Like? Why am I 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:49.880 spending hours of my life to make ten million dollars 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:51.719 if I don't have if I don't have something to 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.520 spend it on, this is idiotic? 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.840 Right, Well, you brought it. You brought up fire, and 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.200 that seems to be another way to try to explain 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.439 some of these concepts, but to you, it feels unfulfilling. 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.000 The one thing I love about the fire is that 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.640 it forces people to get in touch with what they 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.600 really appreciate and what they really want. Right, Like, you've 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.520 shed a lot of the ego stuff, you shed things 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.040 that are unnecessary, and you kind of, you know, work 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.600 your way and save your way into this financial freedom, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:26.080 this lack of lack of worry, right and this freedom 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.240 that you're going to have by retiring. And my problem 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.680 is is that a lot of delayed gratification and pushes 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.240 a lot of experiences to time buckets in your life 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.440 where they don't belong. There are certain experiences that belong 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.520 in your twenties, there's certain experience that belong in your thirties, forties, fifties, right, 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.280 or they're more optimal for that time period, right. And 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.760 what fire is is like a mini version of going 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.680 to jail and then coming out rich. Yeah, And I'm like, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.840 I don't think I would give up my twenties, you 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.800 know what I mean for a nice payday at upcoming. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.920 And some people, you know, big up their twenties and 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.840 their thirties for a nice payday in their forties. And 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.000 I think that's not an optimal way. Right. It is 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.440 a way, but it is not an optimal way. I 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.360 think the optimal way is to realize that, hey, let 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.400 me look at my life. Let me look at each 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.080 period of my life. Let me look at what experiences 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.120 would be fulfilling to me, and let me allocate those 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:27.440 resources accordingly. Right. And so if it's hustling and building 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.480 a business at this time period, then hustle and build 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.160 a business and put your time in there and a 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.640 little bit of time into other things outside of that. 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.840 If it's things that are not to do with work 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.040 and they're outside that, then take some of the capital 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.640 to acquire those things. In that time period, A lot 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.160 of people and I witness them because I lived in 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.680 Saint Thomas for six seven years. You know, think their 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.600 life is going to be like a carnival commercial. And 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.120 then when they get on the carnival cruise, the carnival cruise, 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.200 it's nice, but it's not like a carnival commercial. And 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.880 your body doesn't work like those bodies on the carnival commercials. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.960 And so most people get on those crew uses, they 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.320 get off the island and I'm sorry. They get off 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.720 the boat and get onto the island, and the main 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.400 thing they do is go into the shops in town 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.560 and buy something for like a grandkid or a relative, etc. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.840 They're not really savoring life like a you know what 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.000 I mean, this actually impacked fun cruise. And that's because 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:18.920 life has passed them buying. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.800 You're kind of talking about like the utility of money curve, right, 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.800 and how having more money in your thirties, like taking 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.760 that same trip when you're thirty two with some of 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.800 your best friends or spouse or whatever like could provide 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.320 a lot more value than taking it at the age 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:36.200 of seventy eight. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.280 Yeah, I give a pretty vivid example of my friend Greg, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.160 who loves skiing, skied with his dad, loves skiing, and 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.040 you know, when we were talking about this, he's in 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.880 his fifties. He's like, I can only do I used 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.760 to do seven ski runs or eight ski runs on 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.400 a ski trip, now two or three, and my knees hurt. Right. 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.680 I could probably do more, but it's not enjoyable, it's 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.840 not as fulfilling, right, And so the ski trip is 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.400 worthless to them now at this age. And so if 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.320 we're talking about if we're looking at our life like 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.800 from like a planning's perspective, from like like say eighteen, 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.080 and we're like, hey, we're going to do x ski 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:17.160 trips in our life, right, when is the best time 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:18.080 to do those ski trips? 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:18.280 Like? 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.159 How would we distribute those throughout our life? Right? And 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.680 I'm asking people to do that wholesale for every single 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.000 activity in your life. Now. The problem is is life 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.119 is about discovery. You don't know what you like. You 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.560 discover what you like right like you touch it, you 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:33.680 taste it, you travel to it, you talk with it, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.119 and you're like, I don't like this, I do like 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.440 this or this, I've discovered what do I to do 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.360 for the rest of my life? And so you kind 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.439 of have to like use money and you know, an 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.040 idea proxy and then go through life and keep revising 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.240 this list. But if you start life saying, hey, yeah, 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.480 you're right, it's better for me to take two ski 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.879 trips at thirty than five ski trips at sixty, you know, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.840 maybe maybe I need to do, you know, forego the 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.480 savings for these ski trips at sixty and cut that 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.080 number down and do the ski trips now. 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.080 That makes it. There's the concept of consumption smoothing as well, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.600 which there was a Yale paper written about that. I'm 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.639 sure you read it, and it's so controversial in the 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.560 personal finance space, right, And part of the reason is 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.320 controversial is because it involves assumptions about future income and 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:24.080 actually pushes people, as younger individuals to take on more 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.440 debt because it's like, hey, the income will grow. And 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.280 maybe I'm particularly frustrated by the consumption smoothing as like 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.840 good advice because of what my parents went through when 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:35.880 I was a kid and how people told my dad that, hey, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.720 you're going to get the raise and you'll be able 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.399 to afford the expensive house you got and then you 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.520 know it didn't work out like that. So you are 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.800 a fan of consumption smoothing, I think, right. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.280 I would say I'm a fan of taking risk and 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.240 it has to be worth it, right, Like, at the 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.720 end of the day, you're risking your time, you're risking 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.239 your money, you're risking your health for fulfillment. And if 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.720 you're in touch with like the reward, the word really 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.040