Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and today I'm
Speaker 1: discussing Dying with Zero with Bill Perkins. So the title
Speaker 1: of today's episode, it kind of flies in the face
Speaker 1: of typical money advice. Around here. We talk a lot
Speaker 1: about saving and investing, about using money as a tool
Speaker 1: to buy yourself more freedom in the future, and at
Speaker 1: its core, How to Money is about helping everyday folks
Speaker 1: build wealth and develop a healthier relationship with their money.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. A healthy money relationship, it's not
Speaker 1: just about accumulation, it's also about intentional spending. And my
Speaker 1: guest today, he's been one of the loudest and most
Speaker 1: thought provoking voices pushing back against the idea that life
Speaker 1: should be delayed until your seventies, right after you've squeezed
Speaker 1: every last dollar into your net worth. So Bill Perkins,
Speaker 1: he argues, at the time, the time is the most
Speaker 1: precious asset that we have, and that waiting too long
Speaker 1: to enjoy it can be a costly mistake. His book,
Speaker 1: It's called Die with Zero, came out more than five
Speaker 1: years ago, but it's still challenging the way people think
Speaker 1: about money, time, and experiences. I'm genuinely pumped for this conversation,
Speaker 1: So Bill, thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1: First question, what do you like to sploor? John? As
Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be smart, save and invest
Speaker 1: for our future so that we have a lot of options.
Speaker 1: But you got to spend on cool stuff in the meantime.
Speaker 1: What's that for you right now?
Speaker 2: Usually it's an experience with my loved ones or friends,
Speaker 2: right friends are loved ones, so you know, where we
Speaker 2: challenge our worldview and we have a very enriching experience.
Speaker 2: It's generally travel. I think it's one of the few
Speaker 2: things that you could spend money on that actually makes
Speaker 2: you a richer person. And it's usually including many people
Speaker 2: that wouldn't able to be able to afford the trip
Speaker 2: or go with me, or you know, just just you know,
Speaker 2: paying their way so that I can enjoy it with them.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm one of the people that likes to
Speaker 2: go to the movies with somebody else, you know, I
Speaker 2: think people that go to the movies alone or either
Speaker 2: critics or psychos. So that is kind of where I
Speaker 2: where I go on those type of things.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that being able to provide
Speaker 1: that experience for someone else, but it also enriches your experience.
Speaker 1: And I do think an answer we get to this
Speaker 1: question a lot is travel. But you've also, I feel
Speaker 1: like found you've been really thoughtful about the ways you
Speaker 1: spend money on travel to accentuate through the experience, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the main thing is is like it
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be that big of a splurge. It
Speaker 2: works at all kind of kinds of to wealth levels.
Speaker 2: You can take somebody, you can travel to a comedy
Speaker 2: store and buy your friend's ticket and you go with
Speaker 2: a group right a games night, you know, in an
Speaker 2: interesting location, paying somebody who does like those murder mysteries
Speaker 2: to come over to your house, right and do a
Speaker 2: murder mystery dinner at your house where everybody's trying to
Speaker 2: figure it out. You know, those are great experiences. Travel
Speaker 2: is just one where it's like everybody's in a new setting.
Speaker 2: You get to interact and enjoy each other and the
Speaker 2: environment almost like a real world movie, you know, real
Speaker 2: life movie. And so I'm very intentional about how, you know,
Speaker 2: first make sure I have the experience, and then after
Speaker 2: that trying to like how can I get the most
Speaker 2: out of this experience. I think people are probably better
Speaker 2: than me at like getting the most value out of it.
Speaker 2: Like if I go to Japan, they go to Japan.
Speaker 2: I'm spending twice as much, but they're having the same experience.
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, as long as you do that, you're getting
Speaker 2: the value. They're probably getting the value at a better
Speaker 2: rate than me.
Speaker 1: Does that bother you?
Speaker 2: It used to? But like I'm on the backside of
Speaker 2: life right Like most of the people I'm talking to,
Speaker 2: you know, they're billionaires their time billionaires. They have more
Speaker 2: than a billion minutes to live. I'm a mere millionaire. Uh,
Speaker 2: and I have a lot of capital, and so I
Speaker 2: can't afford to be efficient. I can't afford to miss
Speaker 2: out right, Like there's waste is going to be part
Speaker 2: of that, like waste by design, not necessarily I'm trying
Speaker 2: to waste money, but like I need to be very
Speaker 2: wise with my time, and I can be a little
Speaker 2: bit foolish with my money. That's the state of life
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of a lot of people
Speaker 1: you're speaking to on this podcast, and just maybe a
Speaker 1: lot of people and a lot of folks in general,
Speaker 1: they might feel the other way around, like I have
Speaker 1: to be incredibly called and that you even talk about
Speaker 1: that in the beginning of your book. How this book
Speaker 1: like the advice and it's not for the person who's
Speaker 1: living paycheck to paycheck necessarily.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and people are different phases of their life,
Speaker 2: your respect of their age. You know. I was at
Speaker 2: a time where it was like, hey, you know, I
Speaker 2: had a friend that was refreezing popcorn to save save
Speaker 2: on popcorn, which I wrote about the book, right like
Speaker 2: you know, like we bought the you know, we bought
Speaker 2: bus tickets in advance and and and enrolled our employers
Speaker 2: and making do the trans rotation match like we were
Speaker 2: master savers at that time. And when you are hungry
Speaker 2: and starving, the only thing you can think about is food, right,
Speaker 2: Like you're not thinking about a lavish banquet. You're just
Speaker 2: trying to get by and acquiring food. And when you
Speaker 2: don't have that much capital, your focus tends to be
Speaker 2: on exchanging everything you have in order to acquire capital.
Speaker 2: And that's understandable, but we also need to think about
Speaker 2: like our life is also running out, that time period
Speaker 2: of our life is running out, and then like, okay,
Speaker 2: I don't have that much capital, But how am I
Speaker 2: going to get the enjoyment out of this out of
Speaker 2: this time period?
Speaker 1: So what problem would you say? Die with zero is
Speaker 1: trying to speak to and in particular for our younger
Speaker 1: listeners in their twenties, late twenties, early thirties, who are like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I find myself in that place where I'm trying to
Speaker 1: accumulate capital so that those compounding returns can work for
Speaker 1: me and generate independence for me in the future. How
Speaker 1: do I think about that dichotomy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's trying to speak to people on
Speaker 2: an autopilot one way or another, the spend thrift and
Speaker 2: the miserly savor. Right, Like, what happens is that, you know,
Speaker 2: humans tend to like develop a habit and then stick
Speaker 2: with it and they're just not really thinking about it.
Speaker 2: They're just doing it. Right, So people get good at
Speaker 2: their job. It's just automatic.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: They know how to make the sales call, they know
Speaker 2: how to program the computer, they know how to do
Speaker 2: whatever is that they're doing. You know how to drive home, Like,
Speaker 2: you don't even think about driving home from work, right,
Speaker 2: you just magically appear somehow, right because you're in default
Speaker 2: mode network and that happens with saving money and spending money. Right,
Speaker 2: You don't think about your life fulfillment at each period
Speaker 2: in your life, and so everybody's going to have different circumstances,
Speaker 2: different amounts of capital, be at a different age. What
Speaker 2: I really want them to think about is the purpose
Speaker 2: of my life is fulfillment, and everything is a tool
Speaker 2: for that fulfillment, whatever that means to me, right, whether
Speaker 2: it's hedonistic or altruistic or some combination in between. And
Speaker 2: money is one of those tools, and your health is
Speaker 2: one of those tools. In your life is one of
Speaker 2: those tools. And so what I want people to do
Speaker 2: is get off autopilot and think about, Hey, during this
Speaker 2: time period of my life, what is going to fulfill me?
Speaker 2: And what resources do I have to bring to bear?
Speaker 2: And how much of each resource should I be sprinkling
Speaker 2: in it? Is it all my time? Is it all
Speaker 2: my money? Is it a little bit of my time,
Speaker 2: a little bit of my money? And how am I
Speaker 2: going to split these things up? And so instead of
Speaker 2: going into like a specific formula or a very specific
Speaker 2: cookbook recipe, what I'm giving people the mental models on
Speaker 2: how to think of each period in their life and
Speaker 2: how to answer these questions that are going to come up.
Speaker 1: Because it's going to differ from individual to individual based
Speaker 1: on their age, their health, their life circumstances, yes.
Speaker 2: And also what they like, you know, Like if the
Speaker 2: most fulfilling thing for you is to play chess, I'm like,
Speaker 2: you have a different you know, spend and save category
Speaker 2: than somebody who's the most fulfilling thing is to go
Speaker 2: traveling around Africa or bicycling or hiking mountains around the globe. Right.
Speaker 2: And so you know, a lot of times when I
Speaker 2: talk to people about the book, they're like, oh, I
Speaker 2: get the book, but how do you figure out what
Speaker 2: you like? You know, Like, that's up to you, right,
Speaker 2: you have to decide what what does your adventure here
Speaker 2: on planet Earth look like?
Speaker 1: Is your advice ever for people to want less or
Speaker 1: to lower their expectations, because I think sometimes like I
Speaker 1: think about my kids, even there's some entitlement there, right
Speaker 1: that we're trying to work on, and what does it
Speaker 1: look like then to maybe set expectations that are a
Speaker 1: little bit lower from ourselves, because I think is that
Speaker 1: the problem sometimes when people spend too much, even on
Speaker 1: things that don't matter to them, it's because they have
Speaker 1: expectations that are through the roof.
Speaker 2: I think that can be true, but don't I don't
Speaker 2: tell that to people. What I try to get them
Speaker 2: to do is be aware of the cost. I have
Speaker 2: friends that are still grinding, still working hard, right giving
Speaker 2: up their life, and I'm like, I want to point
Speaker 2: out the cost, like you're never going to get these
Speaker 2: forties back or fifty to fifty. You're never getting this back.
Speaker 2: You're never getting the time back with your family, You're
Speaker 2: never getting the time back with your kids. I want
Speaker 2: you to consider it a cost and reweigh that out,
Speaker 2: like you you really want to be doing this. So
Speaker 2: I think people have like kind of like these wants
Speaker 2: and think, oh, if I want it, obviously i'm behaving.
Speaker 2: I'm not wishing for it. If I'm wanting, I'm working
Speaker 2: towards it. So you're working for this thing at a cost.
Speaker 2: And everything has a cost, And so I want people
Speaker 2: to think about those costs and then decide do I
Speaker 2: really want it? And if they really want it, then
Speaker 2: they really want it, then it's worth the cost. But
Speaker 2: if you think about these things and you don't act
Speaker 2: on autopilot, then you're going to have a more fulfilling life.
Speaker 1: It's been said that, and you know that's better than
Speaker 1: almonst say, anybody else. But like the eighth wonder of
Speaker 1: the world is compounding returns. Right, And when you think
Speaker 1: about just for example, Warren Buffett, he's done an amazing
Speaker 1: job of like building a ridiculous net worth and when
Speaker 1: you look at it, the vast majority of his net
Speaker 1: worth has been built since essentially traditional retirement age. Would
Speaker 1: you say, and I know this is again kind of
Speaker 1: pointing back to what you said individualized, but is he
Speaker 1: doing it wrong?
Speaker 2: I mean, his I don't know his private life, right, so,
Speaker 2: but his public persona it's just quite absurd to me,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just quite absurd. I just I can't,
Speaker 2: for the life of me see me see that as
Speaker 2: the most fulfilling life I could have possible and for
Speaker 2: any other human being. Right. But perhaps he's the type
Speaker 2: of guy like his fulfillment is just sitting at a
Speaker 2: desk and doing work and working for future charity is
Speaker 2: basically what his life has been. He's worked all his life.
Speaker 2: He spent a lot of hours going over charts and
Speaker 2: graphs and investing and picking et cetera. And that money
Speaker 2: the line share that money is for future charity, which
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not against giving charity, but he couldn't
Speaker 2: give charity. He could have gave the money earlier and
Speaker 2: had a bigger impact. And so to me it's absurd.
Speaker 2: But who knows. You know, Warren Buffett might have a
Speaker 2: private life where he's just like living it up hidden
Speaker 2: from everybody, you know, just having a rock and time,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Or maybe like he is just one of those people
Speaker 1: who is extremely gratified by the McDonald's on the way
Speaker 1: to work, at working most of the day watching the
Speaker 1: numbers go up. Maybe that's what brings him joy.
Speaker 2: It's possible. I mean, you know, I have had this
Speaker 2: conversation with friends, like my friends that I get into debates,
Speaker 2: and it says, listen, if you're going to be a
Speaker 2: heroin addict, I cannot convince you that heroin is good.
Speaker 2: Like you're like, I have a problem with your heroin addict, right,
Speaker 2: Like you're addicted to something and it feels good, and
Speaker 2: I'm trying to show you that the world is bigger
Speaker 2: than what you're doing and that you would be a
Speaker 2: happier off heroin. But you know, if Warren Buffett is
Speaker 2: addicted to the doing air quotes. People can't see this
Speaker 2: heroin addiction of work and charts and growth. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: very hard to break that. And you've heard that like
Speaker 2: you have a problem with my drinking. I don't have
Speaker 2: a problem drinking. You know that type of thing, right,
Speaker 2: Like it's like, oh, you have a problem with you working?
Speaker 2: This makes me happy, you know, And you're and as
Speaker 2: a friend, I'm sitting there going, let's really think about
Speaker 2: all the things that you can be doing in the
Speaker 2: world and all the things you can be doing with
Speaker 2: your time, right aside from watching balance sheet go up.
Speaker 2: And you know, once we have like a read, deep,
Speaker 2: vulnerable conversation, generally I sway them. It becomes well, I
Speaker 2: really don't know what to do. What was that that
Speaker 2: that's the answer?
Speaker 1: What was that interpersonal conversation like for you? Because at
Speaker 1: some point there must have been like an epiphany of
Speaker 1: sorts to say, what am I doing with my life?
Speaker 1: And a certain amount you get a certain amount of
Speaker 1: money and you're life you have to start to ask
Speaker 1: those bigger, more existential questions.
Speaker 2: You know, they start to when you come truly online
Speaker 2: and kind of like late teens, early twenties, you start
Speaker 2: to ask these questions. And I was fortunate enough to
Speaker 2: read this book called Your Money or Your Life. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of the people who are savers. The
Speaker 2: whole fire moment was launched from this book, and that
Speaker 2: kind of accelerated those questions. And you know, I was
Speaker 2: asking from a very macro standpoint, like why am I
Speaker 2: chasing this amount of money? Like what is it for?
Speaker 2: And at that age I had very immature version of
Speaker 2: that It's for the girls and the parties, and you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. The the brick size cell phone,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Whatever it was, right like it was, it was basically
Speaker 2: a version of a rap video, right. But you know
Speaker 2: it got me thinking about like what is the purpose
Speaker 2: of my life for? Like why do I need this money?
Speaker 1: Like what?
Speaker 2: I obviously just don't want it to have. I wanted
Speaker 2: to have a life and what does that life look like? Uh?
Speaker 2: And then I'm giving up hours of my time for
Speaker 2: this money? You know, all those kinds of questions started
Speaker 2: to like really swirl in my head and I wanted
Speaker 2: to figure out like what was the optimal earnings and
Speaker 2: what was the optimal spending pattern? And what what what
Speaker 2: variables go into creating that, And so that's kind of
Speaker 2: like the epiphany I had. It was kind of like macro, whoa,
Speaker 2: what is this for? Like? What am I going to
Speaker 2: do if I had ten million dollars? Why do I
Speaker 2: need to make ten million dollars? Like? Why am I
Speaker 2: spending hours of my life to make ten million dollars
Speaker 2: if I don't have if I don't have something to
Speaker 2: spend it on, this is idiotic?
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you brought it. You brought up fire, and
Speaker 1: that seems to be another way to try to explain
Speaker 1: some of these concepts, but to you, it feels unfulfilling.
Speaker 2: The one thing I love about the fire is that
Speaker 2: it forces people to get in touch with what they
Speaker 2: really appreciate and what they really want. Right, Like, you've
Speaker 2: shed a lot of the ego stuff, you shed things
Speaker 2: that are unnecessary, and you kind of, you know, work
Speaker 2: your way and save your way into this financial freedom,
Speaker 2: this lack of lack of worry, right and this freedom
Speaker 2: that you're going to have by retiring. And my problem
Speaker 2: is is that a lot of delayed gratification and pushes
Speaker 2: a lot of experiences to time buckets in your life
Speaker 2: where they don't belong. There are certain experiences that belong
Speaker 2: in your twenties, there's certain experience that belong in your thirties, forties, fifties, right,
Speaker 2: or they're more optimal for that time period, right. And
Speaker 2: what fire is is like a mini version of going
Speaker 2: to jail and then coming out rich. Yeah, And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't think I would give up my twenties, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean for a nice payday at upcoming.
Speaker 2: And some people, you know, big up their twenties and
Speaker 2: their thirties for a nice payday in their forties. And
Speaker 2: I think that's not an optimal way. Right. It is
Speaker 2: a way, but it is not an optimal way. I
Speaker 2: think the optimal way is to realize that, hey, let
Speaker 2: me look at my life. Let me look at each
Speaker 2: period of my life. Let me look at what experiences
Speaker 2: would be fulfilling to me, and let me allocate those
Speaker 2: resources accordingly. Right. And so if it's hustling and building
Speaker 2: a business at this time period, then hustle and build
Speaker 2: a business and put your time in there and a
Speaker 2: little bit of time into other things outside of that.
Speaker 2: If it's things that are not to do with work
Speaker 2: and they're outside that, then take some of the capital
Speaker 2: to acquire those things. In that time period, A lot
Speaker 2: of people and I witness them because I lived in
Speaker 2: Saint Thomas for six seven years. You know, think their
Speaker 2: life is going to be like a carnival commercial. And
Speaker 2: then when they get on the carnival cruise, the carnival cruise,
Speaker 2: it's nice, but it's not like a carnival commercial. And
Speaker 2: your body doesn't work like those bodies on the carnival commercials.
Speaker 2: And so most people get on those crew uses, they
Speaker 2: get off the island and I'm sorry. They get off
Speaker 2: the boat and get onto the island, and the main
Speaker 2: thing they do is go into the shops in town
Speaker 2: and buy something for like a grandkid or a relative, etc.
Speaker 2: They're not really savoring life like a you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, this actually impacked fun cruise. And that's because
Speaker 2: life has passed them buying.
Speaker 1: You're kind of talking about like the utility of money curve, right,
Speaker 1: and how having more money in your thirties, like taking
Speaker 1: that same trip when you're thirty two with some of
Speaker 1: your best friends or spouse or whatever like could provide
Speaker 1: a lot more value than taking it at the age
Speaker 1: of seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I give a pretty vivid example of my friend Greg,
Speaker 2: who loves skiing, skied with his dad, loves skiing, and
Speaker 2: you know, when we were talking about this, he's in
Speaker 2: his fifties. He's like, I can only do I used
Speaker 2: to do seven ski runs or eight ski runs on
Speaker 2: a ski trip, now two or three, and my knees hurt. Right.
Speaker 2: I could probably do more, but it's not enjoyable, it's
Speaker 2: not as fulfilling, right, And so the ski trip is
Speaker 2: worthless to them now at this age. And so if
Speaker 2: we're talking about if we're looking at our life like
Speaker 2: from like a planning's perspective, from like like say eighteen,
Speaker 2: and we're like, hey, we're going to do x ski
Speaker 2: trips in our life, right, when is the best time
Speaker 2: to do those ski trips?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: How would we distribute those throughout our life? Right? And
Speaker 2: I'm asking people to do that wholesale for every single
Speaker 2: activity in your life. Now. The problem is is life
Speaker 2: is about discovery. You don't know what you like. You
Speaker 2: discover what you like right like you touch it, you
Speaker 2: taste it, you travel to it, you talk with it,
Speaker 2: and you're like, I don't like this, I do like
Speaker 2: this or this, I've discovered what do I to do
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life? And so you kind
Speaker 2: of have to like use money and you know, an
Speaker 2: idea proxy and then go through life and keep revising
Speaker 2: this list. But if you start life saying, hey, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right, it's better for me to take two ski
Speaker 2: trips at thirty than five ski trips at sixty, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe I need to do, you know, forego the
Speaker 2: savings for these ski trips at sixty and cut that
Speaker 2: number down and do the ski trips now.
Speaker 1: That makes it. There's the concept of consumption smoothing as well,
Speaker 1: which there was a Yale paper written about that. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you read it, and it's so controversial in the
Speaker 1: personal finance space, right, And part of the reason is
Speaker 1: controversial is because it involves assumptions about future income and
Speaker 1: actually pushes people, as younger individuals to take on more
Speaker 1: debt because it's like, hey, the income will grow. And
Speaker 1: maybe I'm particularly frustrated by the consumption smoothing as like
Speaker 1: good advice because of what my parents went through when
Speaker 1: I was a kid and how people told my dad that, hey,
Speaker 1: you're going to get the raise and you'll be able
Speaker 1: to afford the expensive house you got and then you
Speaker 1: know it didn't work out like that. So you are
Speaker 1: a fan of consumption smoothing, I think, right.
Speaker 2: I would say I'm a fan of taking risk and
Speaker 2: it has to be worth it, right, Like, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, you're risking your time, you're risking
Speaker 2: your money, you're risking your health for fulfillment. And if
Speaker 2: you're in touch with like the reward, the word really
Speaker 2: means something to you, then it's worth the risk, right.
Speaker 2: And there's something that's not in the that consumption smoothing paper.
Speaker 2: Is that a concept I call the memory dividends. Okay,
Speaker 2: So when you plan an experience, you're you're you're getting
Speaker 2: some fulfillment. When you do the experience, you get a
Speaker 2: spike in fulfillment, But when you recall the experience and
Speaker 2: talk about it later in life, you access that experience
Speaker 2: and you have some fulfillment as well. And often the
Speaker 2: recall and discussed future discussions of an experience will give
Speaker 2: you greater fulfillment than the original experience in itself. Like
Speaker 2: ask anybody who's at a game winning home run, a
Speaker 2: first kiss, you know, a job promotion, or anything like that.
Speaker 2: They're telling those stories forty years later, right, and you're
Speaker 2: actually a more interesting person because when you're talking to people,
Speaker 2: you have something to talk about because you've done these experiences,
Speaker 2: and that experience is even more fulfilling. And so those
Speaker 2: things are inflation protected fulfillment yep, every dividends and so
Speaker 2: the way they say, hey, you know, investor early invest early,
Speaker 2: Investor early, because you're going to get the dividends and
Speaker 2: the compound compound interest. I say the same thing about experience.
Speaker 2: Investor early investor early invest early, because you're going to
Speaker 2: get the dividends in fulfillment and compound fulfillment. Right, And
Speaker 2: so that's something you should weigh. If you really enjoy
Speaker 2: something and you really have a great experience, let's say
Speaker 2: the ski trip or friends, but then you are unable
Speaker 2: to afford skey trips in the future, it's not a
Speaker 2: complete loss because you have to factor in, Hey, I
Speaker 2: made great friends, I had a great trip. We still
Speaker 2: talk about that time when I fell down the mountain,
Speaker 2: et cetera. Blah blah blah blah. Right, Like, this is
Speaker 2: the construct of your life, This is your self identity,
Speaker 2: this is your fulfillment, this is what you're going to
Speaker 2: retire on You're going to retire on the memories and
Speaker 2: the actions you have taken throughout your life. The money
Speaker 2: is there to just you know, when you were unable
Speaker 2: to use that money. The money you have left is
Speaker 2: just body maintenance of a body that doesn't move that much.
Speaker 1: On that note, Bill, you came to the conclusion right
Speaker 1: that your APEX net worth shouldn't come at age sixty five.
Speaker 1: I mean that's typically I think that the number that
Speaker 1: people are saving for something somewhere in that rough frame, right,
Speaker 1: fifty nine and a half sixty sixty five, that's where
Speaker 1: I want my like peak nest egg to be. So
Speaker 1: you think that for most people that that peak network
Speaker 1: should come a lot earlier in life. Tell me about that,
Speaker 1: and how do you how do you think how do
Speaker 1: people know when they should be turning from saber to spender?
Speaker 2: I think you know, a lot of people don't like
Speaker 2: to talk about this, but it's getting in touch with
Speaker 2: like you your mortality and when you're gonna die. Like
Speaker 2: if I was going to leave two hundred and being health,
Speaker 2: I'd be like, oh, okay, maybe maybe I'm spending too much, right,
Speaker 2: But I can't imagine, you know, seventy five expected life.
Speaker 2: You know, if somebody dies at seventy five, you're not like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, they died young. You'd be like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's about right, seventy five, seventy six. So I can't
Speaker 2: imagine saving all this money up, getting to a peak
Speaker 2: networth at sixty five to try and get my sixty
Speaker 2: five year old body to enjoy it all right, Like,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't make any sense. I think. I think
Speaker 2: everybody listening to those calls probably like, yeah, that doesn't
Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense. The other thing is is that
Speaker 2: when you look at the data, people made target sixty
Speaker 2: or sixty five, but of those who save, their network
Speaker 2: keeps going up in their seventies and and people go why,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, because they can't spend it. They don't
Speaker 2: have the aptitude or the attitude to do it.
Speaker 1: And part of it's because it's the muscle they haven't exercised.
Speaker 2: It's lung capacity, bone density, it's muscle mass. It's also
Speaker 2: just how they feel, like, I mean, for me to
Speaker 2: go to the club with glow sticks is not as
Speaker 2: exciting as it was when my twenties are thirties, Like
Speaker 2: if we were just in a world of glow sticks
Speaker 2: and clubs. I'd be like, I'm not gonna go. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna stay home and watch Mattlock or something. At sixties,
Speaker 2: like you know, like you just like different activities as
Speaker 2: you ate, and that's you know somebody, but well not me,
Speaker 2: you know, I get that. But what I'm saying is
Speaker 2: is that you're never going to be as in shape
Speaker 2: as the best in shape you could be at thirty three.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, You're not going to have the mental facilities
Speaker 2: or calculation engine that you had when you were twenty eight. Ever, okay,
Speaker 2: and you're just kind of like general wanting to go
Speaker 2: and do things. It just declines. And so like it's
Speaker 2: I have a in law who's like, yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to get on a plane. Sitting on the plane
Speaker 2: for three hours is you know, it's not worth it
Speaker 2: going through the airport. It's not like for me at
Speaker 2: this age, I'm like, I will, I'll go to Timbuctoo
Speaker 2: for a day, right, and then fly twelve hours. Right.
Speaker 2: But as you get older, these things kind of drift off,
Speaker 2: and so do all the activities associated with them. So
Speaker 2: do all the cities. So it was all the movement, right,
Speaker 2: and some of all the activities and the activities you
Speaker 2: like to do tend to spend very little money, and
Speaker 2: so you've then oversaved for your future self.
Speaker 1: So part of what you're getting at is the importance
Speaker 1: of maintaining your health right and that people don't focus
Speaker 1: on that nearly enough, and that that will actually extend
Speaker 1: your ability to enjoy the wealth you've accumulated further out
Speaker 1: into the future. And then the other thing is that
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't care about having the biggest net worth
Speaker 1: at age sixty five. How do you help people or yeah,
Speaker 1: what filter should people run through their likely apex net
Speaker 1: worth age and what that looks like to start spending
Speaker 1: it down maybe earlier than they previously thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's kind of knowing what you like,
Speaker 2: you kind of understand your future. You kind of look
Speaker 2: at your parents like what do they do? Right? Like
Speaker 2: if they had the money, like you give them money,
Speaker 2: what do they do? But it's really like, at age
Speaker 2: sixty five or or age fifty, how many years do
Speaker 2: you have to live and how many healthy years do
Speaker 2: you have to live? And that's going to be you know,
Speaker 2: there's people obese, there's people in shape, there's people who
Speaker 2: couldn't run up a flight of stairs. There's people who
Speaker 2: can run a marathon, right, And so that area under
Speaker 2: the curve, like the utility of money to you, is
Speaker 2: a function of your health and your future health. You know.
Speaker 2: I was watching Peter a Tea podcast and he was
Speaker 2: talking about seven mets is kind of what you need
Speaker 2: to be able to have sex, right, and it's he
Speaker 2: gave an equivalent. He said most people would think that,
Speaker 2: like most people can have seven mets of energy equivalent
Speaker 2: to whatever it was walking at this But as you age,
Speaker 2: your lung capacity declines, and so if you want to
Speaker 2: be able to have sex later, which requires seven mets,
Speaker 2: you need to be at this health now, right. So
Speaker 2: even the basic functions of being a human of physical
Speaker 2: love decline with age unless you stay in shape. So
Speaker 2: if you think like, hey, I got allless money, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be spending it doing xyz and you can't
Speaker 2: even have sex because you're huffing and puffing like you
Speaker 2: ran a marathon, right, it's not as enjoyable. You got
Speaker 2: to reevaluate that. And I think that's a very personal thing,
Speaker 2: you know, But the mental model is what shape am
Speaker 2: I in? And when is my expected death date, which
Speaker 2: you can get from your actual tables. There's lots of
Speaker 2: things now that will like take in all your diagnostics
Speaker 2: data and adjust it. You know, even the LLLM models
Speaker 2: are getting pretty good at that. And then you can go, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: should eighty percent of my production be consumed in the
Speaker 2: last ten percent of my life or fifteen percent of
Speaker 2: my life? And that's going to be, you know, to
Speaker 2: each person his own right, Like, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: tell them that. What I'm going to tell them to
Speaker 2: do is go through that exercise, start thinking about it,
Speaker 2: and then you're going to come out with a better
Speaker 2: answer than just autopilot.
Speaker 1: All right. I want to dig into that a little
Speaker 1: bit more, Bill, and I also want to talk about
Speaker 1: the shortcomings of die with zero and what kind of
Speaker 1: criticism you get. We'll dig in on a bunch of
Speaker 1: that stuff right after this. So you're talking to a
Speaker 1: group of folks who are have have gotten or are
Speaker 1: getting better at saving and investing. What do you want
Speaker 1: them to hear? If that's the place where they're at
Speaker 1: and they've prioritized that, they're like, man, I'm finally I
Speaker 1: know what the roth ira is I'm maxing it out.
Speaker 1: I'm getting the match of my four O one. Kay,
Speaker 1: I'm putting more money aside for my future? What is that? Holistic? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about my future self and independence, full financial independence,
Speaker 1: but I'm also prioritizing the here now.
Speaker 2: So the number one rule in trading is know your position, Like,
Speaker 2: know what position? Are you long? Are you short? Like?
Speaker 2: Know your position? And so if I was going to
Speaker 2: translate that to like life advice for these savers, I'd
Speaker 2: be like, know what you're saving for? Right, know what
Speaker 2: you're saving for? This is not space invaders, this is
Speaker 2: not a game. That money is for future you to
Speaker 2: do something. Know those somethings. Right. So if I could
Speaker 2: talk to a person, and this would be impossible, but
Speaker 2: and I could say, what exactly are the activities you
Speaker 2: want to do from now to the grave. We can
Speaker 2: know exactly to the penny how much they need to save,
Speaker 2: so they do not oversave. They don't need to work anymore.
Speaker 2: Like we can tell them we can go, hey, quit
Speaker 2: right here. Right, But just to go through that exercise, right,
Speaker 2: you can get closer to getting the most fulfilling life
Speaker 2: because you're not undersaving, right, which is the worst case
Speaker 2: and you're not oversaving right, and so knowing what you
Speaker 2: are saving for and knowing when you are saving for
Speaker 2: are the two key variables right to have the most
Speaker 2: fulfilling life. To really loop this whole thing together of
Speaker 2: getting my money right, it's like, Okay, you're getting your
Speaker 2: money right. What are you get what are you getting
Speaker 2: it right for? Right? It's for something right And a
Speaker 2: lot of people go with the easy stuff like survival
Speaker 2: and rent, etc. But after you've covered the survival stuff,
Speaker 2: what's it for? Being in touch with the when and
Speaker 2: why is crucial to have the most fulfilling life.
Speaker 1: Do you think most folks are working too much and
Speaker 1: that their lives would be better, that they would enjoy
Speaker 1: their lives more if they had lesser wants, lower spending habits,
Speaker 1: and more free time, Like I'm thinking for me personally,
Speaker 1: over the last three years, it's been a journey of
Speaker 1: working less and most of that time has been spent
Speaker 1: doing physical stuff, and I find myself much happier with
Speaker 1: more freedom because of it. Do you think working less
Speaker 1: is a big part of the equation for a lot
Speaker 1: of people?
Speaker 2: I think so. I think it's general. Like I have
Speaker 2: friends that like they're remote working. I'm like, will come
Speaker 2: at me on the strip and like, no, I got it.
Speaker 2: I'm like, why bring the thing with you? You know, like
Speaker 2: work in a better office, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 2: come with me. And it really depends on what you want.
Speaker 2: And so the reason why I say that people would
Speaker 2: be better off working less, at least those who work
Speaker 2: in those who save, is that the data shows that
Speaker 2: they don't consume it later.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Of those who save, they save too much the money
Speaker 2: the network keeps going up in their seventies and then
Speaker 2: they die. Right. So clearly with that group of people,
Speaker 2: I can say, Okay, these guys have worked too much. Right,
Speaker 2: they're thinking of things for their future self that they
Speaker 2: want that they're lying to themselves. They're lying to themselves
Speaker 2: about their health, they're lying to themselves about their activity,
Speaker 2: or they're really not thinking about an autopilot. And so
Speaker 2: that's the only reason why I would say that I
Speaker 2: tend to get the most fulfillment from my interpersonal relationships,
Speaker 2: not from activities alone. As a matter of fact, I
Speaker 2: say that almost every activity in life is an excuse
Speaker 2: to connect with other humans. Football game, baseball game, bar, movie, dinner, party,
Speaker 2: bar Mitzer, funeral, wedding. Every single thing you do seems
Speaker 2: to be an excuse to connect with other humans. Now
Speaker 2: we remove that connect with other humans part out of it.
Speaker 2: We just say, hey, I'm going to the baseball game,
Speaker 2: or hey I'm going to a football game, or hey whatever.
Speaker 2: What we forget there's all these other humans and humans
Speaker 2: that we go with, and we like going into restaurants
Speaker 2: where there's other people. We don't even talk with them,
Speaker 2: but we kind of have this common experience. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so that doesn't necessarily take that much money. You know,
Speaker 2: Like a hike is a great activity to do with
Speaker 2: your friends. Like not only are you giving a gift
Speaker 2: to your future self in terms of health, but you're
Speaker 2: enjoying the experience and you're talking with a friend and
Speaker 2: you're having a great time. So you're having a present
Speaker 2: and a future experience at like no money. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2: And so or board games where you play games with
Speaker 2: your friends, like you're sharpening your brain and reducing your
Speaker 2: risk of Alzheimer's and you're having a moment with your
Speaker 2: friend and you're creating memory divens for the future. And
Speaker 2: so you know, my life, you know, I think about
Speaker 2: all the things I splashed on and splurged on. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's a excuse to create an event for future friends
Speaker 2: to go hang out my boat, you know, my my houses, everything,
Speaker 2: you know. So that's kind of when you like kind
Speaker 2: of strip it down right, strip all the to like
Speaker 2: basically like what is happening here during this life? It's
Speaker 2: like I'm finding new and interesting ways to connect with
Speaker 2: other humans, and these are all excuses, graduation, whatever, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: What are the biggest criticisms you hear about Die with Zero?
Speaker 1: I could? I think I could list a few, just
Speaker 1: the people who have read the book and they're like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I still have some concerns about people
Speaker 1: running out of money or market swings. Like what are
Speaker 1: the concerns you typically hear? Which ones do you think
Speaker 1: are valid?
Speaker 2: Okay? Do we want to do with people who've read
Speaker 2: the book? Who haven't read the book? A lot of
Speaker 2: people criticize the kind of philosophy the people that I
Speaker 2: haven't read the book. It's like, what about the kids?
Speaker 2: And I wrote a whole chapter chapter you know, I
Speaker 2: think it's chapter six called what about the Kids? About
Speaker 2: when you should give money to your kids? If you're
Speaker 2: going to leave money your kids, when you should give
Speaker 2: to charity, etc. And so I won't go into that,
Speaker 2: but like of the people who have read the book,
Speaker 2: I would think the biggest criticism is I don't know
Speaker 2: when I'm going to die, right, like the kind of
Speaker 2: what if I outlive my money? And you know, my
Speaker 2: retort to that is that if you look at the data,
Speaker 2: the overwhelm on data is when you die is not
Speaker 2: a big determinant here on your net worth. People are
Speaker 2: not like, oh I lived two years earlier and two
Speaker 2: years later I ran out of money. They just the
Speaker 2: the the amount of money you spend in later life
Speaker 2: goes down so drastically versus people savings that it's not
Speaker 2: a factor, right, It's just not a factor. So the
Speaker 2: knowing we're going to die, or I don't like to
Speaker 2: think about death, you know what I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: like to calculate these things, et cetera. I think that's
Speaker 2: probably one of the biggest criticisms I get, is that
Speaker 2: kind of uncertainty. The second one is inflation. People are
Speaker 2: very concerned about inflation, and I point to them that
Speaker 2: the best inflation protective thing we have going our memory dividends,
Speaker 2: they actually grow, they inflate, they grow inflation adjusted. They're
Speaker 2: like tips, they're the best tips, treasury inflation protected securities.
Speaker 2: I'm saying tips. Maybe some people don't know what that means,
Speaker 2: but they're the best tips you can buy. Are those
Speaker 2: experiences that pay memorative evidends, right, Like, nothing is going
Speaker 2: to diminish the value, and it actually sometimes increases the
Speaker 2: trip you went on with your daughter or your kids,
Speaker 2: or the experience you had with your friends. And so
Speaker 2: that's one. The second one is inflation and just dealing
Speaker 2: with uncertainty, right people, really, you know what if I
Speaker 2: get sick, you know what about inflation and all these things.
Speaker 2: I say is like, look, and I've said this in
Speaker 2: the book, you're not the best insurance agent. Basically, you're
Speaker 2: saying my savings is for me to be the insurance
Speaker 2: agent of a customer of one, right, And I'm like, look,
Speaker 2: you're not that great. You're not that great of an actuary.
Speaker 2: You really don't understand the odds of this risk, and
Speaker 2: you don't have the law large numbers to give you
Speaker 2: like the lower edge on this. And so what I
Speaker 2: say is that there are better tools out there to
Speaker 2: mitigate these risks than you over saving and wasting your life.
Speaker 1: That's powerful. Yeah, but someone to ask then too about
Speaker 1: those tools the financial instruments right that allow people to
Speaker 1: de risk like it die with zero strategy and some
Speaker 1: of the some of the financial tools that exist can
Speaker 1: be kind of expensive, come with fees. One of the
Speaker 1: things that people tend to do is like delay social
Speaker 1: Security right as long if I take social Security later,
Speaker 1: I have a bigger monthly check coming every single month.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's one way for me to ensure that those
Speaker 1: later years I can spend more now and take Social
Speaker 1: Security later. I don't know, do you do you have
Speaker 1: any thoughts on specific ways to dial it in from
Speaker 1: a financial tools perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think some of those things like
Speaker 2: there's you know, the market is hyper competitive and financial
Speaker 2: services it takes a little bit of a work. But
Speaker 2: if you get off autopilot, whether it's like I want
Speaker 2: to insure against living too long, like they all love
Speaker 2: to write you that annuity, right, or if you want
Speaker 2: to long term healthcare insurance, if you get it early enough,
Speaker 2: it's actually cheap. You know, you're gonna have to spend
Speaker 2: an attorney to look through this so you don't get
Speaker 2: caught in some edge case that you don't want. But
Speaker 2: like long term healthcare insurance you're worried about like I'm
Speaker 2: going to need a nurse or I'm going to need X,
Speaker 2: Y and Z, which I think that's if you're out
Speaker 2: of shape and you don't take your body, that need
Speaker 2: goes up. And so one of the biggest insurance things
Speaker 2: you could do is stay healthy, exercise, get your VO
Speaker 2: two max up. I don't want to steal Peter and
Speaker 2: tea stick, but it's like build muscle mass and have
Speaker 2: your VO two max up. Your all cause mortality goes down,
Speaker 2: but your health goes up and the expense associated with
Speaker 2: the cascading conditions that happen with being out of shape
Speaker 2: go away. Then you're really saving too much money.
Speaker 1: Well, it's the expense that goes down, but it's also
Speaker 1: like the joy that you can get from it.
Speaker 2: It works on both sides of it's it's probably the
Speaker 2: most powerful thing you can do. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 2: I purposely don't talk too much about health because it's
Speaker 2: so powerful. It just wrecks every single model. A little
Speaker 2: tweak in your health changes everything. You're fulfillment so much.
Speaker 2: So Usually you know, the book is really geared towards wealth, wealth,
Speaker 2: and time, but health is very, very powerful. I had
Speaker 2: to rewrite chapters to add more into the health about it.
Speaker 2: My friend was like, you don't talk about health enough.
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, I don't want it to be a
Speaker 2: health book. Yeah, great, Like I wanted to be like, hey,
Speaker 2: this is one of the variables and you need to
Speaker 2: do your best here. But those tools, if you dig
Speaker 2: into them, you will find even if they cost, like oh,
Speaker 2: I'm paying six percent edge or whatever, it's way better
Speaker 2: than you doing it yourself. You know, you ever heard
Speaker 2: the You ever heard the saying if you think hiring
Speaker 2: a professional is expensive, wait till you hire an amateur.
Speaker 2: That's what I tell people when they're like trying to
Speaker 2: do insurance for themselves by saving too much or trying
Speaker 2: to do whatever. I'm like, guys, you are wrecking your
Speaker 2: life right by not just paying away the six percent
Speaker 2: to these guys to give you this product. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: there's no way you're going to be as efficient as
Speaker 2: they are.
Speaker 1: You can't create the product on your own or what
Speaker 1: you're giving what you're missing out on if you refuse
Speaker 1: to avoid if you avoid the expensive product is significant.
Speaker 2: Right, So people people are afraid of death, and they
Speaker 2: don't like talking about these things, so they don't even
Speaker 2: look at these products. They just go, ah, well what
Speaker 2: if I die? They just throw this reason up. And
Speaker 2: I'm not saying the reason is silly. I'm just saying
Speaker 2: is they throw the reason up as an excuse and
Speaker 2: then don't try and mitigate it in the most efficient
Speaker 2: way possible.
Speaker 1: And you say to at least try because it perfections
Speaker 1: the enemy are good in this case. Right where you
Speaker 1: can you can look for the perfect thing that's incredibly
Speaker 1: inexpensive and ensures you against all potential downsides. But then
Speaker 1: you're looking for the non existent product and you're missing out.
Speaker 1: You're missing something else in the process.
Speaker 2: Right, And how about this just going through the exercise,
Speaker 2: just like going okay, I'm afraid of as whatever it
Speaker 2: is living too long, and you go down the exercise
Speaker 2: of like, okay, this is what it costs, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Then you get to quantify like, oh wow, I'm oversaving
Speaker 2: by x in order for this eventuality, and then you
Speaker 2: decide if it's worth it. Yeah, is that really worth it?
Speaker 2: I mean, life is risk, like you're not gonna life
Speaker 2: living the day you were born. Life is risk every
Speaker 2: single day anybody started a business, go to work, say
Speaker 2: I love you first. There's all types of risk right
Speaker 2: every day, emotional, physical, financial, And you have to decide
Speaker 2: is it worth risking a decade of your life and
Speaker 2: throwing away your life and not having the most fulfilling
Speaker 2: life to worry about you know future you you know,
Speaker 2: having to scrimp and save a little bit. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: know that's everybody's got to make that decision and look
Speaker 2: at the numbers and see what they want to do
Speaker 2: about it. And different people might come to different conclusions.
Speaker 2: But I think being deeply aware and visciently aware of
Speaker 2: the numbers, the risk and thinking about it will lead
Speaker 2: you to a more fulfilling life than you just throwing
Speaker 2: reasons out and not looking into them and be living
Speaker 2: on autopilot.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I want to talk about too, just
Speaker 1: the how you think about life in seasons and how
Speaker 1: that should impact what die with zero looks like that
Speaker 1: mantra in Our Lives. We'll talk about that in just
Speaker 1: a secon bill. You you talk about the importance of
Speaker 1: living your life in distinct seasons, and you just have
Speaker 1: I had another kid in your mid fifties. It's been
Speaker 1: six years since you published the book. Are you in
Speaker 1: a new season and do you do you have a
Speaker 1: different perspective on what you wrote and on the die
Speaker 1: zero mentality than when this book first came out.
Speaker 2: I definitely have a more visceral feeling of like appreciation
Speaker 2: of the time. Like I wrote about, like you know
Speaker 2: in the book, about reading watching Winnie the Pooh with
Speaker 2: my kids and then one day they're like that was
Speaker 2: for babies, and how wow, had I really thought about
Speaker 2: that day coming, I might have spent more time with
Speaker 2: my kids watching that and reading books with them. And
Speaker 2: now I have kind of that wisdom of like, you know,
Speaker 2: past bill messing that up a little bit and really
Speaker 2: savoring this moment. And so the mental models I think
Speaker 2: are the same, but the you know, I'm erasing you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, my time buckets, right, Like I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what I'm gonna do, you know, at this age,
Speaker 2: and this is what I'm going to be doing, and
Speaker 2: these are the experiences I want to have at whatever.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm having a baby, let's erase that
Speaker 2: and start over, right, So the the process is the same,
Speaker 2: the inputs are different, right, Like you know, now I
Speaker 2: have a Kay Perkins, my son, and and the activities
Speaker 2: have radically changed for me. But like the way I'm
Speaker 2: thinking about those activities and how to get the most
Speaker 2: fulfillment for me, for him, for my loved ones is
Speaker 2: still the same same methodology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how how often does your mindset migrate away from
Speaker 1: your own principles? Like what do you have to do?
Speaker 1: Because it were humans? Man, We just like we forget
Speaker 1: stuff all the time, even stuff that we feel like
Speaker 1: is deeply ingrained.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you get back in touch with that
Speaker 1: philosophy when it starts to slip?
Speaker 2: My wife saw me, and my friends they held me accountable.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I wrote the book to save my
Speaker 2: own life, and then I hope other people would get
Speaker 2: value out of it, you know. And I think you've
Speaker 2: heard me say this, Like what are you talking about
Speaker 2: save your life? I'm like, well, the example I use
Speaker 2: is if somebody was drowning and you you yanked him
Speaker 2: out of the river and give them out them out.
Speaker 2: Often they go, oh my gosh, you saved my life.
Speaker 2: Guess what's going to happen? They for sure are going
Speaker 2: to die one hundred percent. They're going to die. They're
Speaker 2: just going to not die that day. So what did
Speaker 2: you actually give them? You gave them more time, more activities,
Speaker 2: more fulfillment, more I love you, use more spending time
Speaker 2: with Grandma, out their kids, et cetera. And so if
Speaker 2: I write a book about optimizing your life such that
Speaker 2: you have more I love you, more time, more fulfillment, etc.
Speaker 2: I'm basically doing the same thing in my mind. And
Speaker 2: so I wrote it so I didn't waste my life.
Speaker 2: But I'm not the guru. I'm not the like the
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not the boodh. I wrote it to like, hey,
Speaker 2: don't waste your life. And I'm human. So I have
Speaker 2: my wife who's like, hey, who are you doing? Get
Speaker 2: off your phone? Hey, you know, like you know you
Speaker 2: want to go. You fell in love with writing on trains.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing. I thought I'd hate it, and
Speaker 2: then I wound up loving it. Long story. And then
Speaker 2: I'm like, we're gonna ride train all the time. She's like, hey,
Speaker 2: you could write trains in your seventies and eighties. Let's
Speaker 2: do other activities like walking cities, et cetera.
Speaker 1: You know that's a really good point too that she's
Speaker 1: pushing in, saying, listen, you those are the activities you
Speaker 1: totally can do way down the road, right And you
Speaker 1: could bride trains to your heart's content right now, but
Speaker 1: you'd be missing out on other stuff that you won't
Speaker 1: be able to do at that age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's on me like, hey, you're really working
Speaker 2: hard on this deal and this startup and thing whatever?
Speaker 2: Do you really do you really need to work on
Speaker 2: that heart? Does that? Is that really? Like when is
Speaker 2: this going to end? You know, like this is a
Speaker 2: very intense period for you, Like when is this going
Speaker 2: to end? And you know, I'm the type of person
Speaker 2: if I like get into something, I could just keep coming,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like you know, people like
Speaker 2: I'm eat a whole bagg of chip. She just you know,
Speaker 2: humans beings are that way. It's like put put a
Speaker 2: bowl of pretzelism in front of them. They never even
Speaker 2: asked for the pretzels. They'll eat the whole bowl, right,
Speaker 2: Like put a put an interesting work project in front
Speaker 2: of me, an I got to solve the puzzle, right,
Speaker 2: Like we love solving puzzles, right, We can get addicted
Speaker 2: to puzzles. I'd get addicted to puzzles, right. Their work
Speaker 2: is a puzzle, they get addicted to that puzzle. Right.
Speaker 2: That's why we love games. We love the interesting games.
Speaker 2: We love these puzzles. And so she's like, hey, pay
Speaker 2: life is going by. It's okay that you're doing this puzzle,
Speaker 2: but let's think about this. And so that really helps me.
Speaker 1: Important to have somebody in your corner who reminds you
Speaker 1: about that stuff and helps you try to live up
Speaker 1: to your own ideals. Yes, well, Bill, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time work. Can how the money
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about you and more about your book,
Speaker 1: which is kind of legendary at this point.
Speaker 2: Wow. Well, the book is sold everywhere. I think it's
Speaker 2: in like ten different languages, so that shouldn't be a
Speaker 2: fun problem for anybody who prefers to reading in a
Speaker 2: different language. It's in Barns and Nobles, it's in Amazon,
Speaker 2: it's in small booksellers. We try and make it available everywhere.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of a crazy guy. You can find me
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Bill Perkins and on Twitter. I'm at
Speaker 2: BP twenty two. But please that stream of consciousness I
Speaker 2: don't recommend it. I don't recommend it for everyone. You know.
Speaker 2: I wrote this book really, like I'm really honest about
Speaker 2: that is like to get these thoughts out of my head,
Speaker 2: almost like a diary, and then hopefully it would have
Speaker 2: an impact on everybody else in the world and having
Speaker 2: a more fulfilling life. So I didn't write it to
Speaker 2: become the guy, you know what I mean. I don't
Speaker 2: want to be the guy. I just want to live
Speaker 2: life and have you know, I'm winging life just like
Speaker 2: everybody else, and I wanted a guidebook to help me
Speaker 2: have the most fulfilling life. And so you're you're welcome
Speaker 2: to come follow me at BP twenty two on Twitter
Speaker 2: and look me up on Instagram. But I don't recommend it.
Speaker 1: I love it. I think that's like, actually the perfect
Speaker 1: recipe they probably get more followers is to say, don't follow.
Speaker 2: Up that you're like, this guy's an idiot, Like it's crazy.
Speaker 1: You know, Thanks Bill, I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been fun.
Speaker 1: All right. Man, If you were hoping for a lighter episode,
Speaker 1: that wasn't going to give you much to think about.
Speaker 1: This wasn't the right one to tune into. And Bill Perkins,
Speaker 1: He's definitely he's nothing if not opinionated. But I just
Speaker 1: really appreciate his passion, his enthusiasm, and how this whole
Speaker 1: concept of die with zero came not from his desire
Speaker 1: to be a guru, but from his his want, his
Speaker 1: need to kind of create a framework for himself. And
Speaker 1: I think that framework is helpful for it can be
Speaker 1: helpful for a lot of us, and I think it
Speaker 1: can be particularly helpful if we find ourselves in the
Speaker 1: hyper frugal category. And I think especially as people who
Speaker 1: listen to a personal finance podcast, someone who creates a
Speaker 1: personal finance podcast, it can be really easy to think
Speaker 1: about the x's and o's, to think about seeing the
Speaker 1: net worth go up on repeat, year after year, and
Speaker 1: I do think there is there can be some satisfaction
Speaker 1: gain from that. Right. Like we talked about Warren Buffet
Speaker 1: for a second, I do think Warren in some ways
Speaker 1: gives a lot of joy from the way he lives
Speaker 1: his life, and what he wants out of his life
Speaker 1: is different than what Bill wants, and it is different
Speaker 1: than what I want. But I think what Bill is
Speaker 1: also prompting us to do is to say, take the
Speaker 1: food for thought, be viscerally aware of the trade offs
Speaker 1: you're making, because is there's a chance that that might
Speaker 1: not be what you want, Maybe you do need to
Speaker 1: do some experimenting, and maybe you do. Maybe you are
Speaker 1: in the place where you need to try to spend
Speaker 1: some more money to see what's going to offer some payoff,
Speaker 1: or at least what he would say is to know
Speaker 1: what you're saving for. And if you're just saving and
Speaker 1: investing to see the number grow up, but you don't
Speaker 1: have ideas and thoughts of what that money is going
Speaker 1: to be used for, how it's going to facilitate a
Speaker 1: better life for you down the road, then maybe there's
Speaker 1: a connection that needs to be made. I also love
Speaker 1: to what he said about how so often events or
Speaker 1: spending money is He said it was an excuse to
Speaker 1: connect with other humans, and I think that is so true.
Speaker 1: Like I have a concert that I'm super stoked to
Speaker 1: go to have an extra ticket and inviting a friend
Speaker 1: to that is like so exciting, and part of it's
Speaker 1: because the music's going to be great, very excited about that,
Speaker 1: but it's also the whole kitten kaboodle of getting to say, hey,
Speaker 1: you come do this experience with me. I want to
Speaker 1: take you along for the ride, and it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be terribly expensive, as are one of the other things.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes Bill is criticized for his He lives
Speaker 1: a different lifestyle than I do, and people think, oh, man,
Speaker 1: it's like this die with zero. It's only for the
Speaker 1: uber rich. And I think, if you want to do
Speaker 1: it the way he's done it, you got to have
Speaker 1: more money, right. But I think what he's getting at
Speaker 1: too is a philosophy and an approach to money that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean having to be a multi millionaire. And we
Speaker 1: can implement some of that wisdom in the here and now.
Speaker 1: So it's a great book. It's a compelling book, and
Speaker 1: I think it'll change the way you view your own
Speaker 1: finances and maybe even reorient some things in your life.
Speaker 1: All Right, thanks as always for joining, and we'll put
Speaker 1: links to some of bill stuff, including his Instagram that
Speaker 1: he doesn't want you to follow, in the show notes
Speaker 1: up on the website at Howtomoney dot com. Until next time,
Speaker 1: Best Friend Out.