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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and today I'm

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Speaker 1: discussing Dying with Zero with Bill Perkins. So the title

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Speaker 1: of today's episode, it kind of flies in the face

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Speaker 1: of typical money advice. Around here. We talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about saving and investing, about using money as a tool

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Speaker 1: to buy yourself more freedom in the future, and at

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Speaker 1: its core, How to Money is about helping everyday folks

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Speaker 1: build wealth and develop a healthier relationship with their money.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. A healthy money relationship, it's not

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Speaker 1: just about accumulation, it's also about intentional spending. And my

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Speaker 1: guest today, he's been one of the loudest and most

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Speaker 1: thought provoking voices pushing back against the idea that life

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Speaker 1: should be delayed until your seventies, right after you've squeezed

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Speaker 1: every last dollar into your net worth. So Bill Perkins,

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Speaker 1: he argues, at the time, the time is the most

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Speaker 1: precious asset that we have, and that waiting too long

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Speaker 1: to enjoy it can be a costly mistake. His book,

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Speaker 1: It's called Die with Zero, came out more than five

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Speaker 1: years ago, but it's still challenging the way people think

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Speaker 1: about money, time, and experiences. I'm genuinely pumped for this conversation,

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Speaker 1: So Bill, thank you for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: First question, what do you like to sploor? John? As

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Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be smart, save and invest

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Speaker 1: for our future so that we have a lot of options.

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Speaker 1: But you got to spend on cool stuff in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: What's that for you right now?

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Speaker 2: Usually it's an experience with my loved ones or friends,

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Speaker 2: right friends are loved ones, so you know, where we

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Speaker 2: challenge our worldview and we have a very enriching experience.

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Speaker 2: It's generally travel. I think it's one of the few

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Speaker 2: things that you could spend money on that actually makes

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Speaker 2: you a richer person. And it's usually including many people

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Speaker 2: that wouldn't able to be able to afford the trip

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Speaker 2: or go with me, or you know, just just you know,

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Speaker 2: paying their way so that I can enjoy it with them.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm one of the people that likes to

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Speaker 2: go to the movies with somebody else, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think people that go to the movies alone or either

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Speaker 2: critics or psychos. So that is kind of where I

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Speaker 2: where I go on those type of things.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love that being able to provide

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Speaker 1: that experience for someone else, but it also enriches your experience.

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Speaker 1: And I do think an answer we get to this

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Speaker 1: question a lot is travel. But you've also, I feel

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Speaker 1: like found you've been really thoughtful about the ways you

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Speaker 1: spend money on travel to accentuate through the experience, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the main thing is is like it

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Speaker 2: doesn't have to be that big of a splurge. It

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Speaker 2: works at all kind of kinds of to wealth levels.

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Speaker 2: You can take somebody, you can travel to a comedy

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Speaker 2: store and buy your friend's ticket and you go with

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Speaker 2: a group right a games night, you know, in an

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Speaker 2: interesting location, paying somebody who does like those murder mysteries

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Speaker 2: to come over to your house, right and do a

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Speaker 2: murder mystery dinner at your house where everybody's trying to

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Speaker 2: figure it out. You know, those are great experiences. Travel

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Speaker 2: is just one where it's like everybody's in a new setting.

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Speaker 2: You get to interact and enjoy each other and the

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Speaker 2: environment almost like a real world movie, you know, real

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Speaker 2: life movie. And so I'm very intentional about how, you know,

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Speaker 2: first make sure I have the experience, and then after

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Speaker 2: that trying to like how can I get the most

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Speaker 2: out of this experience. I think people are probably better

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Speaker 2: than me at like getting the most value out of it.

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Speaker 2: Like if I go to Japan, they go to Japan.

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Speaker 2: I'm spending twice as much, but they're having the same experience.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless, as long as you do that, you're getting

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Speaker 2: the value. They're probably getting the value at a better

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Speaker 2: rate than me.

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Speaker 1: Does that bother you?

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Speaker 2: It used to? But like I'm on the backside of

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Speaker 2: life right Like most of the people I'm talking to,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're billionaires their time billionaires. They have more

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Speaker 2: than a billion minutes to live. I'm a mere millionaire. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and I have a lot of capital, and so I

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Speaker 2: can't afford to be efficient. I can't afford to miss

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Speaker 2: out right, Like there's waste is going to be part

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Speaker 2: of that, like waste by design, not necessarily I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to waste money, but like I need to be very

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Speaker 2: wise with my time, and I can be a little

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Speaker 2: bit foolish with my money. That's the state of life

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of a lot of people

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Speaker 1: you're speaking to on this podcast, and just maybe a

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Speaker 1: lot of people and a lot of folks in general,

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Speaker 1: they might feel the other way around, like I have

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly called and that you even talk about

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Speaker 1: that in the beginning of your book. How this book

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Speaker 1: like the advice and it's not for the person who's

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Speaker 1: living paycheck to paycheck necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And and people are different phases of their life,

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Speaker 2: your respect of their age. You know. I was at

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Speaker 2: a time where it was like, hey, you know, I

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Speaker 2: had a friend that was refreezing popcorn to save save

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Speaker 2: on popcorn, which I wrote about the book, right like

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Speaker 2: you know, like we bought the you know, we bought

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Speaker 2: bus tickets in advance and and and enrolled our employers

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Speaker 2: and making do the trans rotation match like we were

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Speaker 2: master savers at that time. And when you are hungry

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Speaker 2: and starving, the only thing you can think about is food, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you're not thinking about a lavish banquet. You're just

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Speaker 2: trying to get by and acquiring food. And when you

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Speaker 2: don't have that much capital, your focus tends to be

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Speaker 2: on exchanging everything you have in order to acquire capital.

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Speaker 2: And that's understandable, but we also need to think about

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Speaker 2: like our life is also running out, that time period

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Speaker 2: of our life is running out, and then like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I don't have that much capital, But how am I

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Speaker 2: going to get the enjoyment out of this out of

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Speaker 2: this time period?

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Speaker 1: So what problem would you say? Die with zero is

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Speaker 1: trying to speak to and in particular for our younger

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Speaker 1: listeners in their twenties, late twenties, early thirties, who are like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I find myself in that place where I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: accumulate capital so that those compounding returns can work for

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Speaker 1: me and generate independence for me in the future. How

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Speaker 1: do I think about that dichotomy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's trying to speak to people on

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Speaker 2: an autopilot one way or another, the spend thrift and

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Speaker 2: the miserly savor. Right, Like, what happens is that, you know,

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Speaker 2: humans tend to like develop a habit and then stick

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Speaker 2: with it and they're just not really thinking about it.

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Speaker 2: They're just doing it. Right, So people get good at

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Speaker 2: their job. It's just automatic.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: They know how to make the sales call, they know

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Speaker 2: how to program the computer, they know how to do

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Speaker 2: whatever is that they're doing. You know how to drive home, Like,

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Speaker 2: you don't even think about driving home from work, right,

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Speaker 2: you just magically appear somehow, right because you're in default

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Speaker 2: mode network and that happens with saving money and spending money. Right,

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Speaker 2: You don't think about your life fulfillment at each period

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Speaker 2: in your life, and so everybody's going to have different circumstances,

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Speaker 2: different amounts of capital, be at a different age. What

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Speaker 2: I really want them to think about is the purpose

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Speaker 2: of my life is fulfillment, and everything is a tool

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Speaker 2: for that fulfillment, whatever that means to me, right, whether

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Speaker 2: it's hedonistic or altruistic or some combination in between. And

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Speaker 2: money is one of those tools, and your health is

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Speaker 2: one of those tools. In your life is one of

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Speaker 2: those tools. And so what I want people to do

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Speaker 2: is get off autopilot and think about, Hey, during this

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Speaker 2: time period of my life, what is going to fulfill me?

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Speaker 2: And what resources do I have to bring to bear?

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Speaker 2: And how much of each resource should I be sprinkling

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Speaker 2: in it? Is it all my time? Is it all

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Speaker 2: my money? Is it a little bit of my time,

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Speaker 2: a little bit of my money? And how am I

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Speaker 2: going to split these things up? And so instead of

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Speaker 2: going into like a specific formula or a very specific

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Speaker 2: cookbook recipe, what I'm giving people the mental models on

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Speaker 2: how to think of each period in their life and

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Speaker 2: how to answer these questions that are going to come up.

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Speaker 1: Because it's going to differ from individual to individual based

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Speaker 1: on their age, their health, their life circumstances, yes.

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Speaker 2: And also what they like, you know, Like if the

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Speaker 2: most fulfilling thing for you is to play chess, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you have a different you know, spend and save category

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Speaker 2: than somebody who's the most fulfilling thing is to go

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Speaker 2: traveling around Africa or bicycling or hiking mountains around the globe. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, a lot of times when I

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Speaker 2: talk to people about the book, they're like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: get the book, but how do you figure out what

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Speaker 2: you like? You know, Like, that's up to you, right,

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Speaker 2: you have to decide what what does your adventure here

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Speaker 2: on planet Earth look like?

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Speaker 1: Is your advice ever for people to want less or

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Speaker 1: to lower their expectations, because I think sometimes like I

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Speaker 1: think about my kids, even there's some entitlement there, right

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Speaker 1: that we're trying to work on, and what does it

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Speaker 1: look like then to maybe set expectations that are a

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Speaker 1: little bit lower from ourselves, because I think is that

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Speaker 1: the problem sometimes when people spend too much, even on

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Speaker 1: things that don't matter to them, it's because they have

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Speaker 1: expectations that are through the roof.

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Speaker 2: I think that can be true, but don't I don't

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Speaker 2: tell that to people. What I try to get them

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Speaker 2: to do is be aware of the cost. I have

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Speaker 2: friends that are still grinding, still working hard, right giving

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Speaker 2: up their life, and I'm like, I want to point

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Speaker 2: out the cost, like you're never going to get these

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Speaker 2: forties back or fifty to fifty. You're never getting this back.

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Speaker 2: You're never getting the time back with your family, You're

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Speaker 2: never getting the time back with your kids. I want

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Speaker 2: you to consider it a cost and reweigh that out,

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Speaker 2: like you you really want to be doing this. So

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Speaker 2: I think people have like kind of like these wants

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Speaker 2: and think, oh, if I want it, obviously i'm behaving.

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Speaker 2: I'm not wishing for it. If I'm wanting, I'm working

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Speaker 2: towards it. So you're working for this thing at a cost.

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Speaker 2: And everything has a cost, And so I want people

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Speaker 2: to think about those costs and then decide do I

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Speaker 2: really want it? And if they really want it, then

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Speaker 2: they really want it, then it's worth the cost. But

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Speaker 2: if you think about these things and you don't act

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Speaker 2: on autopilot, then you're going to have a more fulfilling life.

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Speaker 1: It's been said that, and you know that's better than

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Speaker 1: almonst say, anybody else. But like the eighth wonder of

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Speaker 1: the world is compounding returns. Right, And when you think

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Speaker 1: about just for example, Warren Buffett, he's done an amazing

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Speaker 1: job of like building a ridiculous net worth and when

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Speaker 1: you look at it, the vast majority of his net

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Speaker 1: worth has been built since essentially traditional retirement age. Would

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Speaker 1: you say, and I know this is again kind of

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Speaker 1: pointing back to what you said individualized, but is he

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Speaker 1: doing it wrong?

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Speaker 2: I mean, his I don't know his private life, right, so,

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Speaker 2: but his public persona it's just quite absurd to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just quite absurd. I just I can't,

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Speaker 2: for the life of me see me see that as

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Speaker 2: the most fulfilling life I could have possible and for

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Speaker 2: any other human being. Right. But perhaps he's the type

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Speaker 2: of guy like his fulfillment is just sitting at a

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Speaker 2: desk and doing work and working for future charity is

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Speaker 2: basically what his life has been. He's worked all his life.

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Speaker 2: He spent a lot of hours going over charts and

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Speaker 2: graphs and investing and picking et cetera. And that money

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Speaker 2: the line share that money is for future charity, which

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm not against giving charity, but he couldn't

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Speaker 2: give charity. He could have gave the money earlier and

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Speaker 2: had a bigger impact. And so to me it's absurd.

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Speaker 2: But who knows. You know, Warren Buffett might have a

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Speaker 2: private life where he's just like living it up hidden

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Speaker 2: from everybody, you know, just having a rock and time,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe like he is just one of those people

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Speaker 1: who is extremely gratified by the McDonald's on the way

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Speaker 1: to work, at working most of the day watching the

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Speaker 1: numbers go up. Maybe that's what brings him joy.

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Speaker 2: It's possible. I mean, you know, I have had this

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Speaker 2: conversation with friends, like my friends that I get into debates,

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Speaker 2: and it says, listen, if you're going to be a

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Speaker 2: heroin addict, I cannot convince you that heroin is good.

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Speaker 2: Like you're like, I have a problem with your heroin addict, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you're addicted to something and it feels good, and

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to show you that the world is bigger

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Speaker 2: than what you're doing and that you would be a

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Speaker 2: happier off heroin. But you know, if Warren Buffett is

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Speaker 2: addicted to the doing air quotes. People can't see this

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Speaker 2: heroin addiction of work and charts and growth. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: very hard to break that. And you've heard that like

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Speaker 2: you have a problem with my drinking. I don't have

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Speaker 2: a problem drinking. You know that type of thing, right,

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Speaker 2: Like it's like, oh, you have a problem with you working?

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Speaker 2: This makes me happy, you know, And you're and as

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Speaker 2: a friend, I'm sitting there going, let's really think about

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Speaker 2: all the things that you can be doing in the

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Speaker 2: world and all the things you can be doing with

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Speaker 2: your time, right aside from watching balance sheet go up.

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Speaker 2: And you know, once we have like a read, deep,

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Speaker 2: vulnerable conversation, generally I sway them. It becomes well, I

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Speaker 2: really don't know what to do. What was that that

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Speaker 2: that's the answer?

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Speaker 1: What was that interpersonal conversation like for you? Because at

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Speaker 1: some point there must have been like an epiphany of

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Speaker 1: sorts to say, what am I doing with my life?

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Speaker 1: And a certain amount you get a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: money and you're life you have to start to ask

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Speaker 1: those bigger, more existential questions.

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Speaker 2: You know, they start to when you come truly online

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Speaker 2: and kind of like late teens, early twenties, you start

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Speaker 2: to ask these questions. And I was fortunate enough to

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Speaker 2: read this book called Your Money or Your Life. I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of the people who are savers. The

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Speaker 2: whole fire moment was launched from this book, and that

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Speaker 2: kind of accelerated those questions. And you know, I was

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Speaker 2: asking from a very macro standpoint, like why am I

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Speaker 2: chasing this amount of money? Like what is it for?

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Speaker 2: And at that age I had very immature version of

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Speaker 2: that It's for the girls and the parties, and you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. The the brick size cell phone,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Whatever it was, right like it was, it was basically

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Speaker 2: a version of a rap video, right. But you know

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Speaker 2: it got me thinking about like what is the purpose

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Speaker 2: of my life for? Like why do I need this money?

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Speaker 1: Like what?

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Speaker 2: I obviously just don't want it to have. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to have a life and what does that life look like? Uh?

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Speaker 2: And then I'm giving up hours of my time for

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Speaker 2: this money? You know, all those kinds of questions started

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Speaker 2: to like really swirl in my head and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to figure out like what was the optimal earnings and

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Speaker 2: what was the optimal spending pattern? And what what what

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Speaker 2: variables go into creating that, And so that's kind of

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Speaker 2: like the epiphany I had. It was kind of like macro, whoa,

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Speaker 2: what is this for? Like? What am I going to

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Speaker 2: do if I had ten million dollars? Why do I

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Speaker 2: need to make ten million dollars? Like? Why am I

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Speaker 2: spending hours of my life to make ten million dollars

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Speaker 2: if I don't have if I don't have something to

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Speaker 2: spend it on, this is idiotic?

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, you brought it. You brought up fire, and

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Speaker 1: that seems to be another way to try to explain

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Speaker 1: some of these concepts, but to you, it feels unfulfilling.

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Speaker 2: The one thing I love about the fire is that

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Speaker 2: it forces people to get in touch with what they

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Speaker 2: really appreciate and what they really want. Right, Like, you've

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Speaker 2: shed a lot of the ego stuff, you shed things

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Speaker 2: that are unnecessary, and you kind of, you know, work

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Speaker 2: your way and save your way into this financial freedom,

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Speaker 2: this lack of lack of worry, right and this freedom

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Speaker 2: that you're going to have by retiring. And my problem

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Speaker 2: is is that a lot of delayed gratification and pushes

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Speaker 2: a lot of experiences to time buckets in your life

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Speaker 2: where they don't belong. There are certain experiences that belong

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Speaker 2: in your twenties, there's certain experience that belong in your thirties, forties, fifties, right,

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Speaker 2: or they're more optimal for that time period, right. And

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Speaker 2: what fire is is like a mini version of going

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Speaker 2: to jail and then coming out rich. Yeah, And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't think I would give up my twenties, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean for a nice payday at upcoming.

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Speaker 2: And some people, you know, big up their twenties and

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Speaker 2: their thirties for a nice payday in their forties. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's not an optimal way. Right. It is

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Speaker 2: a way, but it is not an optimal way. I

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Speaker 2: think the optimal way is to realize that, hey, let

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Speaker 2: me look at my life. Let me look at each

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Speaker 2: period of my life. Let me look at what experiences

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Speaker 2: would be fulfilling to me, and let me allocate those

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Speaker 2: resources accordingly. Right. And so if it's hustling and building

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Speaker 2: a business at this time period, then hustle and build

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Speaker 2: a business and put your time in there and a

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Speaker 2: little bit of time into other things outside of that.

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Speaker 2: If it's things that are not to do with work

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Speaker 2: and they're outside that, then take some of the capital

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Speaker 2: to acquire those things. In that time period, A lot

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Speaker 2: of people and I witness them because I lived in

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Speaker 2: Saint Thomas for six seven years. You know, think their

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Speaker 2: life is going to be like a carnival commercial. And

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Speaker 2: then when they get on the carnival cruise, the carnival cruise,

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Speaker 2: it's nice, but it's not like a carnival commercial. And

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Speaker 2: your body doesn't work like those bodies on the carnival commercials.

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Speaker 2: And so most people get on those crew uses, they

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Speaker 2: get off the island and I'm sorry. They get off

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Speaker 2: the boat and get onto the island, and the main

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Speaker 2: thing they do is go into the shops in town

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Speaker 2: and buy something for like a grandkid or a relative, etc.

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Speaker 2: They're not really savoring life like a you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, this actually impacked fun cruise. And that's because

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Speaker 2: life has passed them buying.

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Speaker 1: You're kind of talking about like the utility of money curve, right,

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Speaker 1: and how having more money in your thirties, like taking

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Speaker 1: that same trip when you're thirty two with some of

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Speaker 1: your best friends or spouse or whatever like could provide

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Speaker 1: a lot more value than taking it at the age

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Speaker 1: of seventy eight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I give a pretty vivid example of my friend Greg,

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Speaker 2: who loves skiing, skied with his dad, loves skiing, and

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Speaker 2: you know, when we were talking about this, he's in

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Speaker 2: his fifties. He's like, I can only do I used

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Speaker 2: to do seven ski runs or eight ski runs on

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Speaker 2: a ski trip, now two or three, and my knees hurt. Right.

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Speaker 2: I could probably do more, but it's not enjoyable, it's

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Speaker 2: not as fulfilling, right, And so the ski trip is

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Speaker 2: worthless to them now at this age. And so if

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Speaker 2: we're talking about if we're looking at our life like

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Speaker 2: from like a planning's perspective, from like like say eighteen,

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Speaker 2: and we're like, hey, we're going to do x ski

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Speaker 2: trips in our life, right, when is the best time

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Speaker 2: to do those ski trips?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: How would we distribute those throughout our life? Right? And

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Speaker 2: I'm asking people to do that wholesale for every single

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Speaker 2: activity in your life. Now. The problem is is life

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Speaker 2: is about discovery. You don't know what you like. You

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Speaker 2: discover what you like right like you touch it, you

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Speaker 2: taste it, you travel to it, you talk with it,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, I don't like this, I do like

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Speaker 2: this or this, I've discovered what do I to do

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Speaker 2: for the rest of my life? And so you kind

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Speaker 2: of have to like use money and you know, an

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Speaker 2: idea proxy and then go through life and keep revising

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Speaker 2: this list. But if you start life saying, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're right, it's better for me to take two ski

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Speaker 2: trips at thirty than five ski trips at sixty, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe maybe I need to do, you know, forego the

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Speaker 2: savings for these ski trips at sixty and cut that

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Speaker 2: number down and do the ski trips now.

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Speaker 1: That makes it. There's the concept of consumption smoothing as well,

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Speaker 1: which there was a Yale paper written about that. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you read it, and it's so controversial in the

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Speaker 1: personal finance space, right, And part of the reason is

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Speaker 1: controversial is because it involves assumptions about future income and

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Speaker 1: actually pushes people, as younger individuals to take on more

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Speaker 1: debt because it's like, hey, the income will grow. And

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm particularly frustrated by the consumption smoothing as like

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Speaker 1: good advice because of what my parents went through when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid and how people told my dad that, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get the raise and you'll be able

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Speaker 1: to afford the expensive house you got and then you

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Speaker 1: know it didn't work out like that. So you are

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Speaker 1: a fan of consumption smoothing, I think, right.

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Speaker 2: I would say I'm a fan of taking risk and

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Speaker 2: it has to be worth it, right, Like, at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, you're risking your time, you're risking

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Speaker 2: your money, you're risking your health for fulfillment. And if

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Speaker 2: you're in touch with like the reward, the word really

401
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: means something to you, then it's worth the risk, right.

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Speaker 2: And there's something that's not in the that consumption smoothing paper.

403
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Speaker 2: Is that a concept I call the memory dividends. Okay,

404
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 2: So when you plan an experience, you're you're you're getting

405
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Speaker 2: some fulfillment. When you do the experience, you get a

406
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Speaker 2: spike in fulfillment, But when you recall the experience and

407
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Speaker 2: talk about it later in life, you access that experience

408
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,919
Speaker 2: and you have some fulfillment as well. And often the

409
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Speaker 2: recall and discussed future discussions of an experience will give

410
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 2: you greater fulfillment than the original experience in itself. Like

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Speaker 2: ask anybody who's at a game winning home run, a

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Speaker 2: first kiss, you know, a job promotion, or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: They're telling those stories forty years later, right, and you're

414
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 2: actually a more interesting person because when you're talking to people,

415
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Speaker 2: you have something to talk about because you've done these experiences,

416
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Speaker 2: and that experience is even more fulfilling. And so those

417
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Speaker 2: things are inflation protected fulfillment yep, every dividends and so

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Speaker 2: the way they say, hey, you know, investor early invest early,

419
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Speaker 2: Investor early, because you're going to get the dividends and

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Speaker 2: the compound compound interest. I say the same thing about experience.

421
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Speaker 2: Investor early investor early invest early, because you're going to

422
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Speaker 2: get the dividends in fulfillment and compound fulfillment. Right, And

423
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 2: so that's something you should weigh. If you really enjoy

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Speaker 2: something and you really have a great experience, let's say

425
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Speaker 2: the ski trip or friends, but then you are unable

426
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Speaker 2: to afford skey trips in the future, it's not a

427
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: complete loss because you have to factor in, Hey, I

428
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: made great friends, I had a great trip. We still

429
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,120
Speaker 2: talk about that time when I fell down the mountain,

430
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Speaker 2: et cetera. Blah blah blah blah. Right, Like, this is

431
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Speaker 2: the construct of your life, This is your self identity,

432
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Speaker 2: this is your fulfillment, this is what you're going to

433
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 2: retire on You're going to retire on the memories and

434
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: the actions you have taken throughout your life. The money

435
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: is there to just you know, when you were unable

436
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 2: to use that money. The money you have left is

437
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 2: just body maintenance of a body that doesn't move that much.

438
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: On that note, Bill, you came to the conclusion right

439
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: that your APEX net worth shouldn't come at age sixty five.

440
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean that's typically I think that the number that

441
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: people are saving for something somewhere in that rough frame, right,

442
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 1: fifty nine and a half sixty sixty five, that's where

443
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: I want my like peak nest egg to be. So

444
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: you think that for most people that that peak network

445
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: should come a lot earlier in life. Tell me about that,

446
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: and how do you how do you think how do

447
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: people know when they should be turning from saber to spender?

448
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 2: I think you know, a lot of people don't like

449
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: to talk about this, but it's getting in touch with

450
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 2: like you your mortality and when you're gonna die. Like

451
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 2: if I was going to leave two hundred and being health,

452
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: I'd be like, oh, okay, maybe maybe I'm spending too much, right,

453
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: But I can't imagine, you know, seventy five expected life.

454
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: You know, if somebody dies at seventy five, you're not like,

455
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: oh my god, they died young. You'd be like, oh,

456
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: it's about right, seventy five, seventy six. So I can't

457
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 2: imagine saving all this money up, getting to a peak

458
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: networth at sixty five to try and get my sixty

459
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: five year old body to enjoy it all right, Like,

460
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: it just doesn't make any sense. I think. I think

461
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 2: everybody listening to those calls probably like, yeah, that doesn't

462
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense. The other thing is is that

463
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: when you look at the data, people made target sixty

464
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: or sixty five, but of those who save, their network

465
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: keeps going up in their seventies and and people go why,

466
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: And I'm like, because they can't spend it. They don't

467
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: have the aptitude or the attitude to do it.

468
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 1: And part of it's because it's the muscle they haven't exercised.

469
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 2: It's lung capacity, bone density, it's muscle mass. It's also

470
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: just how they feel, like, I mean, for me to

471
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 2: go to the club with glow sticks is not as

472
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: exciting as it was when my twenties are thirties, Like

473
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: if we were just in a world of glow sticks

474
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 2: and clubs. I'd be like, I'm not gonna go. I'm

475
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: gonna stay home and watch Mattlock or something. At sixties,

476
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: like you know, like you just like different activities as

477
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: you ate, and that's you know somebody, but well not me,

478
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: you know, I get that. But what I'm saying is

479
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: is that you're never going to be as in shape

480
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: as the best in shape you could be at thirty three.

481
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah right, You're not going to have the mental facilities

482
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: or calculation engine that you had when you were twenty eight. Ever, okay,

483
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: and you're just kind of like general wanting to go

484
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 2: and do things. It just declines. And so like it's

485
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: I have a in law who's like, yeah, I'm not

486
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: going to get on a plane. Sitting on the plane

487
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: for three hours is you know, it's not worth it

488
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: going through the airport. It's not like for me at

489
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 2: this age, I'm like, I will, I'll go to Timbuctoo

490
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: for a day, right, and then fly twelve hours. Right.

491
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: But as you get older, these things kind of drift off,

492
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: and so do all the activities associated with them. So

493
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: do all the cities. So it was all the movement, right,

494
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: and some of all the activities and the activities you

495
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 2: like to do tend to spend very little money, and

496
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 2: so you've then oversaved for your future self.

497
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: So part of what you're getting at is the importance

498
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 1: of maintaining your health right and that people don't focus

499
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: on that nearly enough, and that that will actually extend

500
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: your ability to enjoy the wealth you've accumulated further out

501
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: into the future. And then the other thing is that

502
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't care about having the biggest net worth

503
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: at age sixty five. How do you help people or yeah,

504
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: what filter should people run through their likely apex net

505
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: worth age and what that looks like to start spending

506
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 1: it down maybe earlier than they previously thought.

507
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's kind of knowing what you like,

508
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: you kind of understand your future. You kind of look

509
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: at your parents like what do they do? Right? Like

510
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: if they had the money, like you give them money,

511
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: what do they do? But it's really like, at age

512
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: sixty five or or age fifty, how many years do

513
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 2: you have to live and how many healthy years do

514
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: you have to live? And that's going to be you know,

515
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: there's people obese, there's people in shape, there's people who

516
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: couldn't run up a flight of stairs. There's people who

517
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: can run a marathon, right, And so that area under

518
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: the curve, like the utility of money to you, is

519
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: a function of your health and your future health. You know.

520
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: I was watching Peter a Tea podcast and he was

521
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: talking about seven mets is kind of what you need

522
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: to be able to have sex, right, and it's he

523
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: gave an equivalent. He said most people would think that,

524
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: like most people can have seven mets of energy equivalent

525
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: to whatever it was walking at this But as you age,

526
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: your lung capacity declines, and so if you want to

527
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: be able to have sex later, which requires seven mets,

528
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: you need to be at this health now, right. So

529
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: even the basic functions of being a human of physical

530
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: love decline with age unless you stay in shape. So

531
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: if you think like, hey, I got allless money, I'm

532
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: going to be spending it doing xyz and you can't

533
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 2: even have sex because you're huffing and puffing like you

534
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 2: ran a marathon, right, it's not as enjoyable. You got

535
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: to reevaluate that. And I think that's a very personal thing,

536
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: you know, But the mental model is what shape am

537
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 2: I in? And when is my expected death date, which

538
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: you can get from your actual tables. There's lots of

539
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: things now that will like take in all your diagnostics

540
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: data and adjust it. You know, even the LLLM models

541
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: are getting pretty good at that. And then you can go, oh, okay,

542
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: should eighty percent of my production be consumed in the

543
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 2: last ten percent of my life or fifteen percent of

544
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: my life? And that's going to be, you know, to

545
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: each person his own right, Like, I'm not going to

546
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: tell them that. What I'm going to tell them to

547
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: do is go through that exercise, start thinking about it,

548
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: and then you're going to come out with a better

549
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: answer than just autopilot.

550
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: All right. I want to dig into that a little

551
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: bit more, Bill, and I also want to talk about

552
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: the shortcomings of die with zero and what kind of

553
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: criticism you get. We'll dig in on a bunch of

554
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: that stuff right after this. So you're talking to a

555
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: group of folks who are have have gotten or are

556
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: getting better at saving and investing. What do you want

557
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: them to hear? If that's the place where they're at

558
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: and they've prioritized that, they're like, man, I'm finally I

559
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: know what the roth ira is I'm maxing it out.

560
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: I'm getting the match of my four O one. Kay,

561
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm putting more money aside for my future? What is that? Holistic? Yeah,

562
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about my future self and independence, full financial independence,

563
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: but I'm also prioritizing the here now.

564
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: So the number one rule in trading is know your position, Like,

565
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 2: know what position? Are you long? Are you short? Like?

566
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: Know your position? And so if I was going to

567
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: translate that to like life advice for these savers, I'd

568
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: be like, know what you're saving for? Right, know what

569
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 2: you're saving for? This is not space invaders, this is

570
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: not a game. That money is for future you to

571
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: do something. Know those somethings. Right. So if I could

572
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: talk to a person, and this would be impossible, but

573
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: and I could say, what exactly are the activities you

574
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: want to do from now to the grave. We can

575
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: know exactly to the penny how much they need to save,

576
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: so they do not oversave. They don't need to work anymore.

577
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: Like we can tell them we can go, hey, quit

578
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: right here. Right, But just to go through that exercise, right,

579
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: you can get closer to getting the most fulfilling life

580
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: because you're not undersaving, right, which is the worst case

581
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: and you're not oversaving right, and so knowing what you

582
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: are saving for and knowing when you are saving for

583
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: are the two key variables right to have the most

584
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: fulfilling life. To really loop this whole thing together of

585
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: getting my money right, it's like, Okay, you're getting your

586
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: money right. What are you get what are you getting

587
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: it right for? Right? It's for something right And a

588
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: lot of people go with the easy stuff like survival

589
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: and rent, etc. But after you've covered the survival stuff,

590
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: what's it for? Being in touch with the when and

591
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: why is crucial to have the most fulfilling life.

592
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: Do you think most folks are working too much and

593
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: that their lives would be better, that they would enjoy

594
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: their lives more if they had lesser wants, lower spending habits,

595
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: and more free time, Like I'm thinking for me personally,

596
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: over the last three years, it's been a journey of

597
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: working less and most of that time has been spent

598
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: doing physical stuff, and I find myself much happier with

599
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: more freedom because of it. Do you think working less

600
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: is a big part of the equation for a lot

601
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: of people?

602
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: I think so. I think it's general. Like I have

603
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 2: friends that like they're remote working. I'm like, will come

604
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: at me on the strip and like, no, I got it.

605
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, why bring the thing with you? You know, like

606
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: work in a better office, you know what I mean? Like,

607
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: come with me. And it really depends on what you want.

608
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: And so the reason why I say that people would

609
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: be better off working less, at least those who work

610
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: in those who save, is that the data shows that

611
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: they don't consume it later.

612
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: Right.

613
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: Of those who save, they save too much the money

614
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: the network keeps going up in their seventies and then

615
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: they die. Right. So clearly with that group of people,

616
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: I can say, Okay, these guys have worked too much. Right,

617
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: they're thinking of things for their future self that they

618
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: want that they're lying to themselves. They're lying to themselves

619
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: about their health, they're lying to themselves about their activity,

620
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: or they're really not thinking about an autopilot. And so

621
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: that's the only reason why I would say that I

622
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: tend to get the most fulfillment from my interpersonal relationships,

623
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: not from activities alone. As a matter of fact, I

624
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: say that almost every activity in life is an excuse

625
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: to connect with other humans. Football game, baseball game, bar, movie, dinner, party,

626
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: bar Mitzer, funeral, wedding. Every single thing you do seems

627
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: to be an excuse to connect with other humans. Now

628
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: we remove that connect with other humans part out of it.

629
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: We just say, hey, I'm going to the baseball game,

630
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: or hey I'm going to a football game, or hey whatever.

631
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: What we forget there's all these other humans and humans

632
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: that we go with, and we like going into restaurants

633
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: where there's other people. We don't even talk with them,

634
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: but we kind of have this common experience. Yeah, and

635
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: so that doesn't necessarily take that much money. You know,

636
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: Like a hike is a great activity to do with

637
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: your friends. Like not only are you giving a gift

638
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: to your future self in terms of health, but you're

639
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: enjoying the experience and you're talking with a friend and

640
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: you're having a great time. So you're having a present

641
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: and a future experience at like no money. Yeah, right.

642
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: And so or board games where you play games with

643
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: your friends, like you're sharpening your brain and reducing your

644
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: risk of Alzheimer's and you're having a moment with your

645
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: friend and you're creating memory divens for the future. And

646
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: so you know, my life, you know, I think about

647
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: all the things I splashed on and splurged on. It's like, oh,

648
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: it's a excuse to create an event for future friends

649
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: to go hang out my boat, you know, my my houses, everything,

650
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: you know. So that's kind of when you like kind

651
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: of strip it down right, strip all the to like

652
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: basically like what is happening here during this life? It's

653
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: like I'm finding new and interesting ways to connect with

654
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 2: other humans, and these are all excuses, graduation, whatever, it

655
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.

656
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: What are the biggest criticisms you hear about Die with Zero?

657
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: I could? I think I could list a few, just

658
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: the people who have read the book and they're like,

659
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, I still have some concerns about people

660
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: running out of money or market swings. Like what are

661
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: the concerns you typically hear? Which ones do you think

662
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: are valid?

663
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: Okay? Do we want to do with people who've read

664
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: the book? Who haven't read the book? A lot of

665
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: people criticize the kind of philosophy the people that I

666
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: haven't read the book. It's like, what about the kids?

667
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: And I wrote a whole chapter chapter you know, I

668
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: think it's chapter six called what about the Kids? About

669
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: when you should give money to your kids? If you're

670
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: going to leave money your kids, when you should give

671
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: to charity, etc. And so I won't go into that,

672
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: but like of the people who have read the book,

673
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: I would think the biggest criticism is I don't know

674
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: when I'm going to die, right, like the kind of

675
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: what if I outlive my money? And you know, my

676
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: retort to that is that if you look at the data,

677
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: the overwhelm on data is when you die is not

678
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: a big determinant here on your net worth. People are

679
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: not like, oh I lived two years earlier and two

680
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: years later I ran out of money. They just the

681
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: the the amount of money you spend in later life

682
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: goes down so drastically versus people savings that it's not

683
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: a factor, right, It's just not a factor. So the

684
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: knowing we're going to die, or I don't like to

685
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: think about death, you know what I mean, I don't

686
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: like to calculate these things, et cetera. I think that's

687
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: probably one of the biggest criticisms I get, is that

688
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: kind of uncertainty. The second one is inflation. People are

689
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: very concerned about inflation, and I point to them that

690
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: the best inflation protective thing we have going our memory dividends,

691
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: they actually grow, they inflate, they grow inflation adjusted. They're

692
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: like tips, they're the best tips, treasury inflation protected securities.

693
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm saying tips. Maybe some people don't know what that means,

694
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: but they're the best tips you can buy. Are those

695
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: experiences that pay memorative evidends, right, Like, nothing is going

696
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: to diminish the value, and it actually sometimes increases the

697
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: trip you went on with your daughter or your kids,

698
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: or the experience you had with your friends. And so

699
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: that's one. The second one is inflation and just dealing

700
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: with uncertainty, right people, really, you know what if I

701
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: get sick, you know what about inflation and all these things.

702
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: I say is like, look, and I've said this in

703
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: the book, you're not the best insurance agent. Basically, you're

704
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: saying my savings is for me to be the insurance

705
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: agent of a customer of one, right, And I'm like, look,

706
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: you're not that great. You're not that great of an actuary.

707
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: You really don't understand the odds of this risk, and

708
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: you don't have the law large numbers to give you

709
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: like the lower edge on this. And so what I

710
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: say is that there are better tools out there to

711
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: mitigate these risks than you over saving and wasting your life.

712
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: That's powerful. Yeah, but someone to ask then too about

713
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: those tools the financial instruments right that allow people to

714
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: de risk like it die with zero strategy and some

715
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: of the some of the financial tools that exist can

716
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: be kind of expensive, come with fees. One of the

717
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: things that people tend to do is like delay social

718
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: Security right as long if I take social Security later,

719
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: I have a bigger monthly check coming every single month.

720
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: Maybe that's one way for me to ensure that those

721
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: later years I can spend more now and take Social

722
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: Security later. I don't know, do you do you have

723
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: any thoughts on specific ways to dial it in from

724
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: a financial tools perspective.

725
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think some of those things like

726
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: there's you know, the market is hyper competitive and financial

727
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: services it takes a little bit of a work. But

728
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: if you get off autopilot, whether it's like I want

729
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: to insure against living too long, like they all love

730
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: to write you that annuity, right, or if you want

731
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: to long term healthcare insurance, if you get it early enough,

732
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 2: it's actually cheap. You know, you're gonna have to spend

733
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: an attorney to look through this so you don't get

734
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: caught in some edge case that you don't want. But

735
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: like long term healthcare insurance you're worried about like I'm

736
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: going to need a nurse or I'm going to need X,

737
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: Y and Z, which I think that's if you're out

738
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: of shape and you don't take your body, that need

739
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: goes up. And so one of the biggest insurance things

740
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: you could do is stay healthy, exercise, get your VO

741
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: two max up. I don't want to steal Peter and

742
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: tea stick, but it's like build muscle mass and have

743
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: your VO two max up. Your all cause mortality goes down,

744
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: but your health goes up and the expense associated with

745
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: the cascading conditions that happen with being out of shape

746
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: go away. Then you're really saving too much money.

747
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: Well, it's the expense that goes down, but it's also

748
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: like the joy that you can get from it.

749
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: It works on both sides of it's it's probably the

750
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: most powerful thing you can do. As a matter of fact,

751
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: I purposely don't talk too much about health because it's

752
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: so powerful. It just wrecks every single model. A little

753
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: tweak in your health changes everything. You're fulfillment so much.

754
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: So Usually you know, the book is really geared towards wealth, wealth,

755
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: and time, but health is very, very powerful. I had

756
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: to rewrite chapters to add more into the health about it.

757
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: My friend was like, you don't talk about health enough.

758
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, I don't want it to be a

759
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: health book. Yeah, great, Like I wanted to be like, hey,

760
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: this is one of the variables and you need to

761
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: do your best here. But those tools, if you dig

762
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: into them, you will find even if they cost, like oh,

763
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: I'm paying six percent edge or whatever, it's way better

764
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 2: than you doing it yourself. You know, you ever heard

765
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: the You ever heard the saying if you think hiring

766
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 2: a professional is expensive, wait till you hire an amateur.

767
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: That's what I tell people when they're like trying to

768
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: do insurance for themselves by saving too much or trying

769
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: to do whatever. I'm like, guys, you are wrecking your

770
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: life right by not just paying away the six percent

771
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,959
Speaker 2: to these guys to give you this product. Yeah, because

772
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: there's no way you're going to be as efficient as

773
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: they are.

774
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: You can't create the product on your own or what

775
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: you're giving what you're missing out on if you refuse

776
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: to avoid if you avoid the expensive product is significant.

777
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: Right, So people people are afraid of death, and they

778
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: don't like talking about these things, so they don't even

779
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: look at these products. They just go, ah, well what

780
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: if I die? They just throw this reason up. And

781
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: I'm not saying the reason is silly. I'm just saying

782
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: is they throw the reason up as an excuse and

783
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: then don't try and mitigate it in the most efficient

784
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: way possible.

785
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: And you say to at least try because it perfections

786
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: the enemy are good in this case. Right where you

787
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: can you can look for the perfect thing that's incredibly

788
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: inexpensive and ensures you against all potential downsides. But then

789
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: you're looking for the non existent product and you're missing out.

790
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: You're missing something else in the process.

791
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: Right, And how about this just going through the exercise,

792
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: just like going okay, I'm afraid of as whatever it

793
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: is living too long, and you go down the exercise

794
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: of like, okay, this is what it costs, et cetera.

795
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: Then you get to quantify like, oh wow, I'm oversaving

796
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: by x in order for this eventuality, and then you

797
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: decide if it's worth it. Yeah, is that really worth it?

798
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,959
Speaker 2: I mean, life is risk, like you're not gonna life

799
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: living the day you were born. Life is risk every

800
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: single day anybody started a business, go to work, say

801
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: I love you first. There's all types of risk right

802
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 2: every day, emotional, physical, financial, And you have to decide

803
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: is it worth risking a decade of your life and

804
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: throwing away your life and not having the most fulfilling

805
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: life to worry about you know future you you know,

806
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: having to scrimp and save a little bit. Yeah, you

807
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: know that's everybody's got to make that decision and look

808
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: at the numbers and see what they want to do

809
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 2: about it. And different people might come to different conclusions.

810
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: But I think being deeply aware and visciently aware of

811
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: the numbers, the risk and thinking about it will lead

812
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: you to a more fulfilling life than you just throwing

813
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: reasons out and not looking into them and be living

814
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: on autopilot.

815
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I want to talk about too, just

816
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: the how you think about life in seasons and how

817
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: that should impact what die with zero looks like that

818
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: mantra in Our Lives. We'll talk about that in just

819
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: a secon bill. You you talk about the importance of

820
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: living your life in distinct seasons, and you just have

821
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: I had another kid in your mid fifties. It's been

822
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: six years since you published the book. Are you in

823
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: a new season and do you do you have a

824
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: different perspective on what you wrote and on the die

825
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: zero mentality than when this book first came out.

826
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: I definitely have a more visceral feeling of like appreciation

827
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: of the time. Like I wrote about, like you know

828
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: in the book, about reading watching Winnie the Pooh with

829
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: my kids and then one day they're like that was

830
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: for babies, and how wow, had I really thought about

831
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: that day coming, I might have spent more time with

832
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: my kids watching that and reading books with them. And

833
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: now I have kind of that wisdom of like, you know,

834
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: past bill messing that up a little bit and really

835
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: savoring this moment. And so the mental models I think

836
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: are the same, but the you know, I'm erasing you

837
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: know what I mean, my time buckets, right, Like I'm like, Okay,

838
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: this is what I'm gonna do, you know, at this age,

839
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: and this is what I'm going to be doing, and

840
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: these are the experiences I want to have at whatever.

841
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm having a baby, let's erase that

842
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 2: and start over, right, So the the process is the same,

843
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: the inputs are different, right, Like you know, now I

844
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: have a Kay Perkins, my son, and and the activities

845
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: have radically changed for me. But like the way I'm

846
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: thinking about those activities and how to get the most

847
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: fulfillment for me, for him, for my loved ones is

848
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: still the same same methodology.

849
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, how how often does your mindset migrate away from

850
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: your own principles? Like what do you have to do?

851
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: Because it were humans? Man, We just like we forget

852
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: stuff all the time, even stuff that we feel like

853
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: is deeply ingrained.

854
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

855
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you get back in touch with that

856
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: philosophy when it starts to slip?

857
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: My wife saw me, and my friends they held me accountable.

858
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: Like I said, I wrote the book to save my

859
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: own life, and then I hope other people would get

860
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: value out of it, you know. And I think you've

861
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 2: heard me say this, Like what are you talking about

862
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: save your life? I'm like, well, the example I use

863
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: is if somebody was drowning and you you yanked him

864
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: out of the river and give them out them out.

865
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: Often they go, oh my gosh, you saved my life.

866
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: Guess what's going to happen? They for sure are going

867
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: to die one hundred percent. They're going to die. They're

868
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: just going to not die that day. So what did

869
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: you actually give them? You gave them more time, more activities,

870
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 2: more fulfillment, more I love you, use more spending time

871
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: with Grandma, out their kids, et cetera. And so if

872
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: I write a book about optimizing your life such that

873
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: you have more I love you, more time, more fulfillment, etc.

874
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: I'm basically doing the same thing in my mind. And

875
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: so I wrote it so I didn't waste my life.

876
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: But I'm not the guru. I'm not the like the

877
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not the boodh. I wrote it to like, hey,

878
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: don't waste your life. And I'm human. So I have

879
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: my wife who's like, hey, who are you doing? Get

880
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: off your phone? Hey, you know, like you know you

881
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: want to go. You fell in love with writing on trains.

882
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing. I thought I'd hate it, and

883
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: then I wound up loving it. Long story. And then

884
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 2: I'm like, we're gonna ride train all the time. She's like, hey,

885
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: you could write trains in your seventies and eighties. Let's

886
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: do other activities like walking cities, et cetera.

887
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: You know that's a really good point too that she's

888
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: pushing in, saying, listen, you those are the activities you

889
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: totally can do way down the road, right And you

890
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: could bride trains to your heart's content right now, but

891
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: you'd be missing out on other stuff that you won't

892
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: be able to do at that age.

893
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's on me like, hey, you're really working

894
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: hard on this deal and this startup and thing whatever?

895
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: Do you really do you really need to work on

896
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: that heart? Does that? Is that really? Like when is

897
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 2: this going to end? You know, like this is a

898
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: very intense period for you, Like when is this going

899
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: to end? And you know, I'm the type of person

900
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: if I like get into something, I could just keep coming,

901
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like you know, people like

902
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: I'm eat a whole bagg of chip. She just you know,

903
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: humans beings are that way. It's like put put a

904
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: bowl of pretzelism in front of them. They never even

905
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: asked for the pretzels. They'll eat the whole bowl, right,

906
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: Like put a put an interesting work project in front

907
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: of me, an I got to solve the puzzle, right,

908
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: Like we love solving puzzles, right, We can get addicted

909
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: to puzzles. I'd get addicted to puzzles, right. Their work

910
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: is a puzzle, they get addicted to that puzzle. Right.

911
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: That's why we love games. We love the interesting games.

912
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: We love these puzzles. And so she's like, hey, pay

913
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: life is going by. It's okay that you're doing this puzzle,

914
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: but let's think about this. And so that really helps me.

915
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: Important to have somebody in your corner who reminds you

916
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: about that stuff and helps you try to live up

917
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: to your own ideals. Yes, well, Bill, thank you so

918
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: much for taking the time work. Can how the money

919
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about you and more about your book,

920
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: which is kind of legendary at this point.

921
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 2: Wow. Well, the book is sold everywhere. I think it's

922
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: in like ten different languages, so that shouldn't be a

923
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: fun problem for anybody who prefers to reading in a

924
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 2: different language. It's in Barns and Nobles, it's in Amazon,

925
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: it's in small booksellers. We try and make it available everywhere.

926
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: I'm kind of a crazy guy. You can find me

927
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Bill Perkins and on Twitter. I'm at

928
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 2: BP twenty two. But please that stream of consciousness I

929
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: don't recommend it. I don't recommend it for everyone. You know.

930
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 2: I wrote this book really, like I'm really honest about

931
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 2: that is like to get these thoughts out of my head,

932
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: almost like a diary, and then hopefully it would have

933
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: an impact on everybody else in the world and having

934
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: a more fulfilling life. So I didn't write it to

935
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: become the guy, you know what I mean. I don't

936
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: want to be the guy. I just want to live

937
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: life and have you know, I'm winging life just like

938
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: everybody else, and I wanted a guidebook to help me

939
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: have the most fulfilling life. And so you're you're welcome

940
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 2: to come follow me at BP twenty two on Twitter

941
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: and look me up on Instagram. But I don't recommend it.

942
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: I love it. I think that's like, actually the perfect

943
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: recipe they probably get more followers is to say, don't follow.

944
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: Up that you're like, this guy's an idiot, Like it's crazy.

945
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: You know, Thanks Bill, I really appreciate your time.

946
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been fun.

947
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: All right. Man, If you were hoping for a lighter episode,

948
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: that wasn't going to give you much to think about.

949
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: This wasn't the right one to tune into. And Bill Perkins,

950
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: He's definitely he's nothing if not opinionated. But I just

951
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: really appreciate his passion, his enthusiasm, and how this whole

952
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: concept of die with zero came not from his desire

953
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: to be a guru, but from his his want, his

954
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: need to kind of create a framework for himself. And

955
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: I think that framework is helpful for it can be

956
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: helpful for a lot of us, and I think it

957
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: can be particularly helpful if we find ourselves in the

958
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: hyper frugal category. And I think especially as people who

959
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: listen to a personal finance podcast, someone who creates a

960
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: personal finance podcast, it can be really easy to think

961
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: about the x's and o's, to think about seeing the

962
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: net worth go up on repeat, year after year, and

963
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: I do think there is there can be some satisfaction

964
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: gain from that. Right. Like we talked about Warren Buffet

965
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: for a second, I do think Warren in some ways

966
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: gives a lot of joy from the way he lives

967
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 1: his life, and what he wants out of his life

968
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: is different than what Bill wants, and it is different

969
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: than what I want. But I think what Bill is

970
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: also prompting us to do is to say, take the

971
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: food for thought, be viscerally aware of the trade offs

972
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: you're making, because is there's a chance that that might

973
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: not be what you want, Maybe you do need to

974
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: do some experimenting, and maybe you do. Maybe you are

975
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: in the place where you need to try to spend

976
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: some more money to see what's going to offer some payoff,

977
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: or at least what he would say is to know

978
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: what you're saving for. And if you're just saving and

979
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: investing to see the number grow up, but you don't

980
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: have ideas and thoughts of what that money is going

981
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: to be used for, how it's going to facilitate a

982
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: better life for you down the road, then maybe there's

983
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: a connection that needs to be made. I also love

984
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: to what he said about how so often events or

985
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: spending money is He said it was an excuse to

986
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: connect with other humans, and I think that is so true.

987
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: Like I have a concert that I'm super stoked to

988
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: go to have an extra ticket and inviting a friend

989
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: to that is like so exciting, and part of it's

990
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: because the music's going to be great, very excited about that,

991
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,479
Speaker 1: but it's also the whole kitten kaboodle of getting to say, hey,

992
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: you come do this experience with me. I want to

993
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: take you along for the ride, and it doesn't have

994
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: to be terribly expensive, as are one of the other things.

995
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: I think sometimes Bill is criticized for his He lives

996
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: a different lifestyle than I do, and people think, oh, man,

997
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: it's like this die with zero. It's only for the

998
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: uber rich. And I think, if you want to do

999
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: it the way he's done it, you got to have

1000
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: more money, right. But I think what he's getting at

1001
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: too is a philosophy and an approach to money that

1002
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: doesn't mean having to be a multi millionaire. And we

1003
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: can implement some of that wisdom in the here and now.

1004
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: So it's a great book. It's a compelling book, and

1005
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: I think it'll change the way you view your own

1006
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: finances and maybe even reorient some things in your life.

1007
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: All Right, thanks as always for joining, and we'll put

1008
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: links to some of bill stuff, including his Instagram that

1009
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't want you to follow, in the show notes

1010
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: up on the website at Howtomoney dot com. Until next time,

1011
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: Best Friend Out.