WEBVTT - The Magic Wand Experiment 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.996 Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce 0:00:21.996 --> 0:00:24.916 that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from 0:00:24.956 --> 0:00:29.316 my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to Pushkin 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:32.876 Plus for those who just can't get enough. We're giving 0:00:32.916 --> 0:00:37.476 every episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus We've 0:00:37.516 --> 0:00:42.676 created many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. 0:00:43.156 --> 0:00:48.316 And of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to 0:00:48.356 --> 0:00:52.036 Pushkin Plus on the Revisionist History Show page, in Apple 0:00:52.076 --> 0:00:58.316 Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. So as a condition 0:00:58.436 --> 0:01:02.236 of our experiment, I'm giving you the ability to access 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:05.356 every bit of data you want from everyone in the experiment. 0:01:06.716 --> 0:01:10.076 Yes, I would like that, and I know that sounds crazy, 0:01:10.116 --> 0:01:12.316 but I'm going pie in the sky like you said. 0:01:12.396 --> 0:01:15.476 Yes, no, you get that request granted. I'm the czar 0:01:15.756 --> 0:01:23.996 of the Magic wand I have granted that request. Experiments 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:28.916 come in many forms. There are natural experiments, experiments based 0:01:28.916 --> 0:01:33.076 on observations from the real world, thought experiments where we 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:36.436 gain out a problem and its potential solution in our heads, 0:01:37.036 --> 0:01:41.356 and formal experiments the ones that scientists design and perform 0:01:41.396 --> 0:01:46.196 in the laboratory. But there's another type of experiment. My 0:01:46.316 --> 0:01:54.036 favorite kind of experiment, the magic wand experiment, where I 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:57.036 call up the smartest people I know and ask them 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:01.596 to think big, to give me the experiment of their dreams. 0:02:05.236 --> 0:02:08.516 Because remember, we are changing this environment because you're giving 0:02:08.516 --> 0:02:09.076 me all this money. 0:02:09.596 --> 0:02:12.276 Yeah, I'm giving you unlimited money. I'm limited money, elon 0:02:12.356 --> 0:02:15.396 musk money. I'm letting you go nuts. I'm letting you 0:02:15.836 --> 0:02:19.796 this the magic wand. The poet Homer invented the magic 0:02:19.836 --> 0:02:22.836 wand in his Greek epics The Iliad and the Odyssey. 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:25.996 The god Hermes used the magic wand to make people sleep. 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:29.836 Athena used it to make Odysseus old and then young again. 0:02:30.316 --> 0:02:33.436 Circe used a wand to turn the crew of Odysseus 0:02:33.596 --> 0:02:37.836 into pigs. Then, for a few thousand years, not much 0:02:37.876 --> 0:02:42.316 magic wand action until now, when all of us at 0:02:42.356 --> 0:02:45.956 Revisionist History have decided to revive the magic wand for 0:02:46.036 --> 0:02:55.196 the greatest of all forbidden pleasures, nerdy experiments. My name 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:59.076 is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome back to Revisionist History, my podcast 0:02:59.076 --> 0:03:04.556 about things Overlooked and misunderstood. To kick off this season, 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:08.636 we've asked scientists what if you could design an experiment 0:03:08.796 --> 0:03:15.636 without considering any financial, logistical, ethical, practical constraints. The experiment 0:03:15.836 --> 0:03:18.356 that allows you to answer the question that could never 0:03:18.516 --> 0:03:25.916 otherwise be answered. The experiment so far fetched, so fantastical, 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:30.076 so offensive that you don't usually even admit that you 0:03:30.156 --> 0:03:35.236 want to do it, unless someone calls you up and says, oh, 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:44.276 come on, how many do you want in each in 0:03:44.316 --> 0:03:44.996 this experiment? 0:03:45.756 --> 0:03:48.676 One hundred males and one hundred females. 0:03:48.436 --> 0:03:50.436 Meaning dream big, you can go more. 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:52.956 Okay, sure, I'll give you. 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:56.116 I'll give you thous Okay. The idea for this season 0:03:56.156 --> 0:04:01.076 of Revision's history was born in frustration. I've always believed 0:04:01.196 --> 0:04:03.516 that those of us alive in the twenty first century 0:04:03.676 --> 0:04:07.076 are all modern and smarty pants. But over and again 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:10.436 I get into a serious discussion with some brilliant person, 0:04:10.836 --> 0:04:13.876 and after that person had dropped all of their expert bluster, 0:04:14.116 --> 0:04:17.276 they would say, oh, but we don't really know the 0:04:17.316 --> 0:04:21.596 answer to that, or I wish we knew, but we don't. 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:25.116 It took me back, because I suddenly remembered that's what 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:27.756 my dad used to always say whenever I pasted him 0:04:27.756 --> 0:04:31.116 with a question. Big sigh, hand to his forehead, slight 0:04:31.236 --> 0:04:34.556 shake of the head, and then no idea, no idea, 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:37.276 which I thought was just Graham Glowell, but now I 0:04:37.356 --> 0:04:41.556 realize is everyone. The great sobering discovery of my middle 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:43.876 age is that the list of things we don't know 0:04:44.476 --> 0:04:46.836 is a lot longer than the list of things we 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:50.716 do know, which suggested to me that we really need 0:04:50.756 --> 0:04:55.516 to get cracking. Hence this season of revisionist history, a 0:04:55.596 --> 0:05:01.076 season devoted entirely to experiments, starting with the special category 0:05:01.516 --> 0:05:05.556 of magic wands. I got lots of suggestions about magic 0:05:05.636 --> 0:05:09.636 wand experiments on the physical world, suggestions like that of 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:12.756 my friend David Epstein, author of the wonderful book Range 0:05:13.076 --> 0:05:16.556 Why Generalists Triumph in a specialized World. David wrote me 0:05:16.596 --> 0:05:19.796 the following email, which I asked him to read out loud. 0:05:22.396 --> 0:05:24.396 It might be really fun to talk to a string theorist. 0:05:24.476 --> 0:05:26.396 I haven't kept up with this in years, but I 0:05:26.396 --> 0:05:28.396 remember at one point hearing that if you wanted to 0:05:28.436 --> 0:05:31.516 directly test string theory, you'd need a particle collider the 0:05:31.596 --> 0:05:33.716 size of the Solar System. And then I seem to 0:05:33.716 --> 0:05:35.956 recall that there was some writing about the feasibility of 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:39.196 a collider wrapping around the entire Solar System. Come to 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:41.396 think of it, if you had a particle collider that big, 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:44.876 maybe we could basically recreate the Big Bang, maybe finally 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:47.156 figure out why gravity is such a weird weak force 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:50.276 and what dark matter is. So yeah, okay, I vote 0:05:50.276 --> 0:05:52.076 for Solar System sized particle collider. 0:05:53.236 --> 0:05:56.596 David, I love you. You know that. Don't take this personally. 0:05:56.916 --> 0:05:59.636 We need to have a few ground rules, like we're 0:05:59.636 --> 0:06:03.876 not doing physics experiments or for that matter, anything on 0:06:03.916 --> 0:06:07.596 space travel, crypto, the bond market, or the ramifications of 0:06:07.676 --> 0:06:11.716 Supreme Court decisions, etc. I am limiting this set of 0:06:11.756 --> 0:06:18.276 magic wands to the basics human things, exercise, diet, and babies. 0:06:19.036 --> 0:06:24.676 I'll let you guess why my show my wands. Second 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:27.596 ground rule, The reason to do magic wands is to 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:29.716 help us think about the things we want to know 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:34.436 but aren't allowed to find out. Magic wands are supposed 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:37.556 to make you feel a little uncomfortable. My guess is 0:06:37.556 --> 0:06:40.316 that you will feel uncomfortable at least once over the 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:44.476 next forty minutes, and that's totally fine. So here are 0:06:44.476 --> 0:06:48.716 my top five experiments that can never be done. Drum 0:06:48.796 --> 0:06:59.796 roll please. We begin with the penis test. This was 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:06.236 the idea of Harvard University child psychologist Joyce Benenson. She's 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:10.476 the author of a deeply fascinating book called Warriors and Warriors. 0:07:11.036 --> 0:07:12.596 Here's what she would do with. 0:07:12.596 --> 0:07:17.956 Her magic wand Okay, so I'll say it, and that is, 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:21.836 if we could randomly cut off a bunch of infant 0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:27.076 babies at birth boys penises and attach them to randomly 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:28.836 selected girls. 0:07:28.956 --> 0:07:33.276 And have them raised by their parents as the opposite 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:37.676 sex from what they are biologically destined to be because 0:07:37.676 --> 0:07:42.036 the parents are misinformed, and then look at their activities 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:42.556 and interest. 0:07:44.876 --> 0:07:47.916 We remove the penises of one group of boy babies, 0:07:48.276 --> 0:07:51.876 babies born with X Y chromosomes, we attach those body 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:55.356 parts to a group of newborn girls, the double X 0:07:55.396 --> 0:07:58.956 chromosome babies, so the parents of the boys assume they're 0:07:59.036 --> 0:08:02.756 raising girls and vice versa. Remember this is all with 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:06.716 the magic wand no one's suffering. Were we socializing them 0:08:06.756 --> 0:08:12.036 with our controls? If boys of penises and girls without. 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:15.556 Okay, well, just to be as clean as possible, I 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:18.676 would keep them just with one another. I would isolate 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:22.396 them so there's no other influences. That to me would 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:25.036 be just the strongest one. I think it would be 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:26.556 a beautiful experiment. 0:08:29.276 --> 0:08:32.396 What Beninson wants to test is the impact of parenting 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:36.556 on gender identity. It's really hard to untangle nature and nurture. 0:08:36.796 --> 0:08:40.316 People have been arguing about this for millennia, So Beninson says, 0:08:40.676 --> 0:08:43.596 let's just wave our magic wand put together a massive, 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:47.236 perfectly designed experiment and settle this issue once and for all. 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:50.036 If your mom and dad are confused about what gender 0:08:50.076 --> 0:08:53.156 you belong to, does that make any difference to you. 0:08:54.196 --> 0:08:57.196 Beninson has been researching the behavior of children for more 0:08:57.236 --> 0:09:00.316 than four decades, and she's pretty sure what the answer is. 0:09:00.796 --> 0:09:03.196 She thinks that if you take boys and raise them 0:09:03.236 --> 0:09:07.076 as girls, nothing's going to change. Remove the penises, dress 0:09:07.076 --> 0:09:09.596 them in pink, none of that will alter their bea. 0:09:09.716 --> 0:09:12.156 Those would be the ones engaging in rough and tumble play. 0:09:12.236 --> 0:09:15.276 Those would be the ones who would be punching each 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:18.036 other and competing to show they're the best. They would 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:21.556 be the ones who love transportation, vehicles and weapons. 0:09:21.796 --> 0:09:25.476 As for the girls, Beninson says, calling them Johnny and 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:28.436 giving them baseball caps isn't going to change anything. 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:33.356 The one with the penises, right, who are actually xx females, 0:09:33.876 --> 0:09:37.316 they would be much more concerned about their survival they're 0:09:37.516 --> 0:09:40.116 taking care of either the dolls or the actual babies. 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:44.356 They're cleaning and making sure hygiene is better. They're cooking, 0:09:44.956 --> 0:09:48.836 either real or pretend. They're doing the kinds of things 0:09:48.836 --> 0:09:51.516 that anybody who goes into a preschool seas are not 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:55.316 socialized by anyone, but naturally occurring. And you would see 0:09:55.316 --> 0:09:59.236 the division, so that in this case, the ones with 0:09:59.396 --> 0:10:04.236 the penises would be crowding around the sink and crowding 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:08.556 around the stove and the baby dolls and dressing up, 0:10:09.156 --> 0:10:13.716 and the ones without the penises would be jumping on 0:10:13.716 --> 0:10:16.956 top of each other's heads and competing to throw the 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:20.316 best arrow or paper airplane or whatever it is. 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:26.636 Parenting does not override biology. That's what Benison already believes. 0:10:26.956 --> 0:10:28.916 So why do the magic wand if she already knows 0:10:28.956 --> 0:10:33.236 the answer, Because we don't just do experiments to learn 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:37.196 the truth. We also do experiments to persuade others of 0:10:37.236 --> 0:10:40.756 the truth, in this case, to persuade the legions of 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:43.956 neurotic North American parents who believe that it is their 0:10:43.996 --> 0:10:48.476 own practice and attitudes that shape their children's fundamental nature. 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:51.556 Okay, so most people will say to me nowadays, at 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:55.916 least here in the West, that parents are raising their 0:10:55.996 --> 0:11:00.276 daughters arbitrarily to be a certain way, and parents are 0:11:00.356 --> 0:11:02.796 raising their sons, and all we have to do is 0:11:02.796 --> 0:11:06.516 stop that, and then there will be no basic instincts, 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:09.636 there will be no divide between males and female, there 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:15.196 will be nothing that we are motivated or emotionally attracted 0:11:15.236 --> 0:11:17.156 to naturally biologically. 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:20.036 Now, maybe you're one of those parents in the Nurture 0:11:20.116 --> 0:11:23.276 over Nature camp. Maybe you think that what Joyce Benison 0:11:23.316 --> 0:11:27.516 thinks is crazy and offensive. Maybe you're write maybe there 0:11:27.516 --> 0:11:30.196 are children out there who are shaped by their parents 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:34.476 careful administrations, like a lump of clay from a potter's wheel. 0:11:35.396 --> 0:11:39.156 That's why we're doing an experiment. Wait, so how long 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:41.236 do you let this experiment run? At what point do 0:11:41.316 --> 0:11:42.876 you unblind the parents? 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:46.676 Okay, so now we're talking about ethics, right, because if 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:47.716 I were really. 0:11:47.396 --> 0:11:51.236 We've waved ethical constraints. But from your purposes, it needs 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:55.476 to run for how many years to get a persuasive result? 0:11:55.796 --> 0:11:59.476 Well, I mean, obviously hormones come online and you'd have 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:02.076 to do too much to meet it. Run this through puberty, 0:12:02.356 --> 0:12:05.956 but I would absolutely run it through age five. 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:12.396 Just think if Benison's right, nature triumphs over nurture. So 0:12:12.436 --> 0:12:14.796 you're lying in your shrink's couch and the shrink is 0:12:14.836 --> 0:12:17.036 making you think it's all your mother's fault, which is 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:20.276 what they do, of course, only now you get to say, actually, 0:12:20.756 --> 0:12:23.196 there was this cool experiment where they chopped off the 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:26.516 penises of little boys and found out mom doesn't matter 0:12:26.516 --> 0:12:35.836 that much. You have I shocked your delicate sensibilities. Just wait, 0:12:36.116 --> 0:13:02.156 We've got four more experiments to go after the break. Okay, 0:13:02.156 --> 0:13:05.956 we're back on to our next impossible, possibly unethical, but 0:13:06.036 --> 0:13:10.076 super interesting and useful experiment, the magic of New York 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:14.236 University psychologist Adam Alter. I had a lot of internal 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:17.116 debate about whether to include this one, because Adam happens 0:13:17.156 --> 0:13:18.956 to be a very good friend of mine, so I 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:22.116 worried it would look like favoritism. But then I thought 0:13:22.156 --> 0:13:24.916 back to the first six seasons of revisionist history and 0:13:24.996 --> 0:13:27.316 decided it's a little late in the day to be 0:13:27.396 --> 0:13:29.036 raising journalistic standards. 0:13:29.556 --> 0:13:33.236 Kidding, Okay, So what I want to do is I 0:13:33.276 --> 0:13:36.116 want to go to every hospital in the country, every 0:13:36.156 --> 0:13:40.676 maternity ward, and when every baby is born, some person 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:42.996 randomly walks around and puts a little sticker on the 0:13:42.996 --> 0:13:45.956 baby's forehead, and the sticker determines which condition the child 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:49.436 will be in for the first let's say, fifty years 0:13:49.476 --> 0:13:49.876 of life. 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:51.676 Okay, yeah, no, you have a magical I'll be modest 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:53.276 about it. You have a magic wand you're allowed to 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:54.716 fifty okay, five, zero, fifty. 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:57.836 It's a fifty year experiment. And what we're going to 0:13:57.876 --> 0:13:59.716 do is based on the color of the sticker, We're 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:02.716 going to assign kids to different conditions of exposure to 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:04.916 screens and social media, and we're going to track their 0:14:04.956 --> 0:14:08.116 progress across the lifespan, across those fifty years or even longer. 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:10.916 Alter wants to do this because he points out that 0:14:10.956 --> 0:14:13.716 we basically have no idea what the long term effects 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:17.596 of screen time and social media are. Hence the Alter 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:18.516 screen test. 0:14:19.436 --> 0:14:21.316 There are two camps right now. There's a camp that 0:14:21.396 --> 0:14:24.516 thinks that social media screens all the concerns about those 0:14:24.636 --> 0:14:28.116 are moral panic, there's nothing to be concerned about. And 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:30.636 then there's another camp that thinks this is really a 0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:31.476 serious concern. 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:33.276 What are all the things we're looking for? 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:36.596 The thing that I want to know, number one is 0:14:36.596 --> 0:14:39.276 is it bad for your well being? Are you less happy? 0:14:39.396 --> 0:14:41.236 Do you have a less meaningful life. Are you less 0:14:41.236 --> 0:14:44.036 connected to other people if you have access to screens 0:14:44.236 --> 0:14:47.236 throughout your life? And how much is a problem? Is 0:14:47.276 --> 0:14:49.756 one hour a day? Okay? Is three hours? Okay? Is five? 0:14:49.796 --> 0:14:51.756 I'm sure there's a point at which it becomes problematic. 0:14:51.956 --> 0:14:56.636 There's some evidence that your ability to distinguish subtle facial 0:14:56.716 --> 0:14:59.836 cues that show, say, the difference between fear and sadness 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:01.756 comes from spending a lot of time as a kid, 0:15:01.876 --> 0:15:04.556 as a very young kid, looking at people face to face. 0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:07.356 So I would like to know do kids who spend 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:08.916 a huge amount of time in front of screens never 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:11.956 develop those capacities? Is there a critical period where if 0:15:11.956 --> 0:15:14.156 you don't develop them young, it becomes very hard to 0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:16.076 develop them later on. And I think there's some evidence 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:19.996 to suggest that the ability to tell, for example, to 0:15:19.996 --> 0:15:21.836 get a sense of the effects of your actions on 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:24.316 other people seems really important. So as a little kid 0:15:24.356 --> 0:15:27.236 you take another kid's toy, that kid bops you on 0:15:27.276 --> 0:15:29.396 the head and says, don't do that. That's really important 0:15:29.396 --> 0:15:31.516 to learn. And I think to the extent you're spending 0:15:31.516 --> 0:15:33.996 a huge amount of time on screens, the feedback you 0:15:34.036 --> 0:15:37.756 get when you do social things is low fidelity, it's 0:15:37.796 --> 0:15:40.796 slow to arrive, it's not physical, and so I think 0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:43.476 these kids are going to learn social things less quickly, 0:15:43.516 --> 0:15:45.236 and I think that might be problematic as well. So 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:48.796 that's the early part of life as we get older. 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:51.156 I mean, you just have to talk to parents of 0:15:51.236 --> 0:15:54.316 teens and even to the teens themselves, and they'll tell 0:15:54.356 --> 0:15:56.476 you I am less happy because I have access to 0:15:56.516 --> 0:15:58.436 social media. A lot of teens will tell you this, 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:01.396 and their parents will say the same, And so I'd 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:03.836 like a sort of harder edged way to measure that. 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:06.116 What does that exactly mean? And is it because you're 0:16:06.396 --> 0:16:09.556 exposed to the best one percent of everyone else life 0:16:09.836 --> 0:16:12.516 that you become less happy or is there something else 0:16:12.556 --> 0:16:15.156 going on? So those are the kinds of questions that 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:16.836 I'd want to know about teens in particular. 0:16:19.196 --> 0:16:22.236 What's interesting about Adam Alter's magic wand is that it 0:16:22.356 --> 0:16:26.116 runs counter to the penis test. The penis test has 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:29.756 the potential to absolve parents of all blame. Alter's experiment 0:16:29.956 --> 0:16:33.156 has the potential to make you feel really, really bad 0:16:33.156 --> 0:16:35.676 about a decision you made for your children. There's no 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:38.996 middle ground with magic wands. There was only euphoria on 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:42.116 the one hand and a mountain of guilt on the other. 0:16:43.996 --> 0:16:47.236 This reminds me oddly love of my own childhood because 0:16:47.316 --> 0:16:51.796 I was the only child in my primary school without 0:16:52.356 --> 0:16:54.516 was that the only one, one of the only ones 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:59.956 without television? Right, So I was the child who was 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:02.476 listening to these conversations about things that I had never 0:17:03.396 --> 0:17:06.276 heard of, these television shows which meant nothing to me. 0:17:07.156 --> 0:17:09.596 Who the pattern of my days was complete different for 0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:12.436 everybody else's. So I sort of get how that works, 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:17.436 and just see how I turned out needlessly provocative, irrationally 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:20.996 obsessed with running a delightful podcast host. You see what 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:23.796 I'm saying? Was it because I didn't watch television until 0:17:23.796 --> 0:17:27.476 I went to college? We just don't know. You know, 0:17:27.476 --> 0:17:32.316 what we need to give them are old school blackberries. Yeah, 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:35.596 so it's a phone, it's email, and that's it, right. 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:35.956 Yeah. 0:17:35.956 --> 0:17:41.316 So we're basically talking about creating a BlackBerry generation alongside 0:17:41.356 --> 0:17:47.476 an iPhone generation, and we're controlling, we're controlling for the 0:17:47.556 --> 0:17:54.596 nature of their phone and observing the outcome. Yes, no 0:17:54.676 --> 0:17:57.196 one is happier, by the way, with an experiment that 0:17:57.196 --> 0:18:01.436 brings back the BlackBerry. BlackBerry, as I'm constantly reminding people, 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:04.836 was made of my hometown. My tagline on my old 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:12.556 BlackBerry emails was there's no school like old school. Oh man, 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:16.956 I missed the simple pleasures driving down the highway rocking 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:19.716 out to the litist Nirvana album on my CD player 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:23.476 while strolling through my emails on my BlackBerry with my 0:18:23.556 --> 0:18:24.116 free hand. 0:18:25.756 --> 0:18:29.076 My son started kindergarten. He's five, and for the first 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:31.836 time he got an iPad to take home. All of 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:33.636 his little friends have got these screens, and so they 0:18:33.636 --> 0:18:35.276 talk about the things they do on the screens at 0:18:35.276 --> 0:18:37.196 the end of the day. And I think that's a 0:18:37.276 --> 0:18:39.916 completely different thing. How it's changed the way he's interacting 0:18:39.956 --> 0:18:42.436 with all these little kids versus what it's like to 0:18:42.476 --> 0:18:44.036 get him off the screen at the end of the day. 0:18:44.196 --> 0:18:45.676 I think both are interesting questions. 0:18:46.076 --> 0:18:50.276 Yeah, yeah, wait, I can't believe that in the middle 0:18:50.356 --> 0:18:55.476 of you imagining this magic wand experiment involving limited access 0:18:55.516 --> 0:18:56.756 to screens of social. 0:18:56.516 --> 0:19:01.636 Media, your own son is being given and I, yeah, well, 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:04.116 we had no say. This is what schools do today, 0:19:04.116 --> 0:19:06.076 They give kids iPads. Unfortunately. 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:14.476 Okay, we have the penis test, we have the altar 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:19.516 screen test. Next up. Nancy Siegel, who teaches a cal 0:19:19.556 --> 0:19:25.076 State Fullerton and studies what she calls scientific treasures. Twins. 0:19:26.356 --> 0:19:29.636 Twins are catnip for psychologists, and no one loves a 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:34.916 twin more than Nancy Siegel, who is also herself a twin. Now, 0:19:34.916 --> 0:19:38.636 you might say, aren't identical twins in effect nature's magic 0:19:38.716 --> 0:19:41.956 wand a little bit of genetic wizardry that lets us 0:19:41.996 --> 0:19:46.436 see things we would never know about otherwise. Absolutely in fact, 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:49.916 and this will require a little digression. Sigull once uncovered 0:19:50.076 --> 0:19:55.396 a totally bananas real life twins case study. Two sets 0:19:55.396 --> 0:19:58.836 of twins born a day apart in Columbia. 0:19:59.476 --> 0:20:02.836 One pair born in the lively capital city of Bogata, 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:05.596 the other born one hundred and ten miles to the north, 0:20:05.996 --> 0:20:10.116 in the most rural area with no running water, no 0:20:10.236 --> 0:20:14.276 flush toilets, no nothing. One little boys up north was 0:20:14.356 --> 0:20:17.476 very sick, so at day one or two, his grandmother 0:20:17.516 --> 0:20:20.236 brought him to the better hospital in Bogata where he 0:20:20.436 --> 0:20:22.916 was switched with one of the twins and the other pair. 0:20:23.356 --> 0:20:27.596 So this is an extraordinary double switch case. So you 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:32.276 had two sets of boys who were identical twins to 0:20:32.356 --> 0:20:35.476 somebody else, with growing up together thinking they were fraternal twins. 0:20:36.116 --> 0:20:39.476 So you can look at the unrelated pair. This is 0:20:39.516 --> 0:20:43.476 somebody that that person A was raised with, so twin 0:20:43.556 --> 0:20:46.396 B was unrelated to him. But then remember, twin B 0:20:47.276 --> 0:20:51.276 has an identical brother somewhere else that person A was 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:54.436 never raised with. So how similar are you to somebody 0:20:54.596 --> 0:20:57.956 you're unrelated to but raised with, but unrelated to and 0:20:57.996 --> 0:21:04.436 not raised with. So that was that was something I 0:21:04.516 --> 0:21:06.996 addressed in my book because I had that, and that 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:09.716 was completely unique, completely. 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:15.316 The Bogata Twins. How did they discover the error? Oh? 0:21:15.556 --> 0:21:19.516 Good question. The boys up in the north moved down 0:21:19.516 --> 0:21:23.196 to Bogata to make a living. They became butchers in 0:21:23.236 --> 0:21:26.876 a local supermarket. Actually, Bogata is a big city. It 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:30.596 wasn't so local. But a friend of one of the 0:21:30.676 --> 0:21:33.836 other guys who was raised there went into the butcher's 0:21:33.836 --> 0:21:37.356 shop and she thought, hoor hey, what are you doing here? 0:21:37.716 --> 0:21:39.756 And he said, my name is William and she could 0:21:39.756 --> 0:21:42.356 hardly believe it. So she took a picture of Williams 0:21:42.356 --> 0:21:44.756 showed it to her friend, hora hey, and Hojorgey, of 0:21:44.756 --> 0:21:46.516 course it's a twin, right, he thinks he's a twin 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:49.516 to the sky Carlos. And anyway, they sat on it 0:21:49.516 --> 0:21:53.476 for a while But then Porgey went online and he 0:21:53.556 --> 0:21:57.476 saw himself in clothes he knew he didn't own, and 0:21:57.516 --> 0:22:00.916 he saw someone next to this guy who looked just 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:04.876 like his twin brother, only wasn't his twin brother. And 0:22:04.916 --> 0:22:08.276 they met, they got together, and of course they were 0:22:08.276 --> 0:22:13.196 all in shock, particularly because the one guy who was 0:22:13.276 --> 0:22:15.836 raised in the city knew that if things had gone right, 0:22:16.236 --> 0:22:18.356 he who had been raised in a very rural area 0:22:18.556 --> 0:22:21.636 and he's someone who enjoyed the city. And the guy 0:22:21.756 --> 0:22:23.956 up in the north, who should have been raised in 0:22:23.996 --> 0:22:28.356 Bogata was desperate for education, wanted to learn, and had 0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:32.596 no opportunities, never went past the fifth grade. So there 0:22:32.596 --> 0:22:35.476 were some tensions in the beginning. But actually I will 0:22:35.476 --> 0:22:38.636 say that these four boys are the most gracious and 0:22:38.796 --> 0:22:42.396 loving of any of the switch to birth families I've encountered. 0:22:42.836 --> 0:22:46.476 They call themselves a group of four. They make decisions together, 0:22:46.716 --> 0:22:48.836 and any differences they had, I mean, it was not 0:22:48.876 --> 0:22:52.476 their fault. These things just happen. Sometimes they get along beautifully. Now, 0:22:52.876 --> 0:22:57.756 all for all combinations of twinsally incredible story. 0:23:02.276 --> 0:23:05.276 Now could you imagine a magic wand replication of that 0:23:05.356 --> 0:23:11.076 real life experiment? Sure, but Siegel has a a bigger idea. 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:14.676 This is a new buzzword in the twin world. Biracial twins. 0:23:14.676 --> 0:23:19.156 What are they? They come about naturally when an interracial 0:23:19.196 --> 0:23:21.636 couple marries and has children. So let's say you have 0:23:21.676 --> 0:23:25.516 a Caucasian mother and an African American father, so the 0:23:25.636 --> 0:23:29.516 children are really both biracial, but given the way that 0:23:29.556 --> 0:23:34.076 the genes segregate, one child looks very Caucasian and one 0:23:34.156 --> 0:23:38.436 child looks very African American. Now these are fraternal twins, 0:23:39.276 --> 0:23:41.876 so you're not controlling for the genes. What I would 0:23:41.996 --> 0:23:44.556 like to do, if I could, would be to have 0:23:44.596 --> 0:23:49.196 a set of identical twins and have them look exactly 0:23:49.236 --> 0:23:52.516 the same, except that one would look Caucasian and one 0:23:52.516 --> 0:23:55.196 would look African American, or one would look Asian and 0:23:55.196 --> 0:23:58.116 one would look Hispanic. But still raise them together and 0:23:58.236 --> 0:24:01.876 just see what their different life experiences are like and 0:24:01.996 --> 0:24:04.796 how that would impact in their development. And I got 0:24:04.796 --> 0:24:09.036 this idea because I've had fraternal twins in my classes 0:24:09.676 --> 0:24:13.476 at the university. Who are these biracial fraternal twins, And 0:24:13.516 --> 0:24:17.236 they've told me they have very different life experiences. But again, 0:24:17.276 --> 0:24:19.836 you're not controlling for the genes. So if you had 0:24:19.956 --> 0:24:23.596 monopsychotic or identical twins like this. I think it would 0:24:23.756 --> 0:24:26.156 really show us in a new way. And this is 0:24:26.156 --> 0:24:28.676 what information we don't have so well. 0:24:29.116 --> 0:24:31.796 The magic wand we have to waive here is to 0:24:31.876 --> 0:24:34.876 take identical twins and make them not identical in their 0:24:34.876 --> 0:24:39.276