1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:24,916 Speaker 1: that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to Pushkin 4 00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: Plus for those who just can't get enough. We're giving 5 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: every episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus We've 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:42,676 Speaker 1: created many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. 7 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 1: And of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to 8 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on the Revisionist History Show page, in Apple 9 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. So as a condition 10 00:00:58,436 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 1: of our experiment, I'm giving you the ability to access 11 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 1: every bit of data you want from everyone in the experiment. 12 00:01:06,716 --> 00:01:10,076 Speaker 2: Yes, I would like that, and I know that sounds crazy, 13 00:01:10,116 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 2: but I'm going pie in the sky like you said. 14 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:15,476 Speaker 1: Yes, no, you get that request granted. I'm the czar 15 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:23,996 Speaker 1: of the Magic wand I have granted that request. Experiments 16 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 1: come in many forms. There are natural experiments, experiments based 17 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 1: on observations from the real world, thought experiments where we 18 00:01:33,116 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: gain out a problem and its potential solution in our heads, 19 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:41,356 Speaker 1: and formal experiments the ones that scientists design and perform 20 00:01:41,396 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 1: in the laboratory. But there's another type of experiment. My 21 00:01:46,316 --> 00:01:54,036 Speaker 1: favorite kind of experiment, the magic wand experiment, where I 22 00:01:54,116 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 1: call up the smartest people I know and ask them 23 00:01:57,076 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 1: to think big, to give me the experiment of their dreams. 24 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 2: Because remember, we are changing this environment because you're giving 25 00:02:08,516 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 2: me all this money. 26 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm giving you unlimited money. I'm limited money, elon 27 00:02:12,356 --> 00:02:15,396 Speaker 1: musk money. I'm letting you go nuts. I'm letting you 28 00:02:15,836 --> 00:02:19,796 Speaker 1: this the magic wand. The poet Homer invented the magic 29 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: wand in his Greek epics The Iliad and the Odyssey. 30 00:02:23,236 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 1: The god Hermes used the magic wand to make people sleep. 31 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:29,836 Speaker 1: Athena used it to make Odysseus old and then young again. 32 00:02:30,316 --> 00:02:33,436 Speaker 1: Circe used a wand to turn the crew of Odysseus 33 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: into pigs. Then, for a few thousand years, not much 34 00:02:37,876 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 1: magic wand action until now, when all of us at 35 00:02:42,356 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 1: Revisionist History have decided to revive the magic wand for 36 00:02:46,036 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 1: the greatest of all forbidden pleasures, nerdy experiments. My name 37 00:02:55,236 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 1: is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome back to Revisionist History, my podcast 38 00:02:59,076 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 1: about things Overlooked and misunderstood. To kick off this season, 39 00:03:04,916 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 1: we've asked scientists what if you could design an experiment 40 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 1: without considering any financial, logistical, ethical, practical constraints. The experiment 41 00:03:15,836 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 1: that allows you to answer the question that could never 42 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:25,916 Speaker 1: otherwise be answered. The experiment so far fetched, so fantastical, 43 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:30,076 Speaker 1: so offensive that you don't usually even admit that you 44 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:35,236 Speaker 1: want to do it, unless someone calls you up and says, oh, 45 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:44,276 Speaker 1: come on, how many do you want in each in 46 00:03:44,316 --> 00:03:44,996 Speaker 1: this experiment? 47 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:48,676 Speaker 3: One hundred males and one hundred females. 48 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:50,436 Speaker 1: Meaning dream big, you can go more. 49 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:52,956 Speaker 3: Okay, sure, I'll give you. 50 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 1: I'll give you thous Okay. The idea for this season 51 00:03:56,156 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 1: of Revision's history was born in frustration. I've always believed 52 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 1: that those of us alive in the twenty first century 53 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: are all modern and smarty pants. But over and again 54 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:10,436 Speaker 1: I get into a serious discussion with some brilliant person, 55 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,876 Speaker 1: and after that person had dropped all of their expert bluster, 56 00:04:14,116 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 1: they would say, oh, but we don't really know the 57 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 1: answer to that, or I wish we knew, but we don't. 58 00:04:22,196 --> 00:04:25,116 Speaker 1: It took me back, because I suddenly remembered that's what 59 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:27,756 Speaker 1: my dad used to always say whenever I pasted him 60 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 1: with a question. Big sigh, hand to his forehead, slight 61 00:04:31,236 --> 00:04:34,556 Speaker 1: shake of the head, and then no idea, no idea, 62 00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 1: which I thought was just Graham Glowell, but now I 63 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 1: realize is everyone. The great sobering discovery of my middle 64 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: age is that the list of things we don't know 65 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:46,836 Speaker 1: is a lot longer than the list of things we 66 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:50,716 Speaker 1: do know, which suggested to me that we really need 67 00:04:50,756 --> 00:04:55,516 Speaker 1: to get cracking. Hence this season of revisionist history, a 68 00:04:55,596 --> 00:05:01,076 Speaker 1: season devoted entirely to experiments, starting with the special category 69 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 1: of magic wands. I got lots of suggestions about magic 70 00:05:05,636 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 1: wand experiments on the physical world, suggestions like that of 71 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 1: my friend David Epstein, author of the wonderful book Range 72 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 1: Why Generalists Triumph in a specialized World. David wrote me 73 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: the following email, which I asked him to read out loud. 74 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 4: It might be really fun to talk to a string theorist. 75 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 4: I haven't kept up with this in years, but I 76 00:05:26,396 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 4: remember at one point hearing that if you wanted to 77 00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 4: directly test string theory, you'd need a particle collider the 78 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:33,716 Speaker 4: size of the Solar System. And then I seem to 79 00:05:33,716 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 4: recall that there was some writing about the feasibility of 80 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 4: a collider wrapping around the entire Solar System. Come to 81 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:41,396 Speaker 4: think of it, if you had a particle collider that big, 82 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 4: maybe we could basically recreate the Big Bang, maybe finally 83 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 4: figure out why gravity is such a weird weak force 84 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:50,276 Speaker 4: and what dark matter is. So yeah, okay, I vote 85 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:52,076 Speaker 4: for Solar System sized particle collider. 86 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: David, I love you. You know that. Don't take this personally. 87 00:05:56,916 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 1: We need to have a few ground rules, like we're 88 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:03,876 Speaker 1: not doing physics experiments or for that matter, anything on 89 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 1: space travel, crypto, the bond market, or the ramifications of 90 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:11,716 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decisions, etc. I am limiting this set of 91 00:06:11,756 --> 00:06:18,276 Speaker 1: magic wands to the basics human things, exercise, diet, and babies. 92 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: I'll let you guess why my show my wands. Second 93 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 1: ground rule, The reason to do magic wands is to 94 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:29,716 Speaker 1: help us think about the things we want to know 95 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: but aren't allowed to find out. Magic wands are supposed 96 00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:37,556 Speaker 1: to make you feel a little uncomfortable. My guess is 97 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: that you will feel uncomfortable at least once over the 98 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:44,476 Speaker 1: next forty minutes, and that's totally fine. So here are 99 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: my top five experiments that can never be done. Drum 100 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 1: roll please. We begin with the penis test. This was 101 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:06,236 Speaker 1: the idea of Harvard University child psychologist Joyce Benenson. She's 102 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:10,476 Speaker 1: the author of a deeply fascinating book called Warriors and Warriors. 103 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:12,596 Speaker 1: Here's what she would do with. 104 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:17,956 Speaker 5: Her magic wand Okay, so I'll say it, and that is, 105 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:21,836 Speaker 5: if we could randomly cut off a bunch of infant 106 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:27,076 Speaker 5: babies at birth boys penises and attach them to randomly 107 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:28,836 Speaker 5: selected girls. 108 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:33,276 Speaker 3: And have them raised by their parents as the opposite 109 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 3: sex from what they are biologically destined to be because 110 00:07:37,676 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 3: the parents are misinformed, and then look at their activities 111 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:42,556 Speaker 3: and interest. 112 00:07:44,876 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 1: We remove the penises of one group of boy babies, 113 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:51,876 Speaker 1: babies born with X Y chromosomes, we attach those body 114 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:55,356 Speaker 1: parts to a group of newborn girls, the double X 115 00:07:55,396 --> 00:07:58,956 Speaker 1: chromosome babies, so the parents of the boys assume they're 116 00:07:59,036 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: raising girls and vice versa. Remember this is all with 117 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: the magic wand no one's suffering. Were we socializing them 118 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: with our controls? If boys of penises and girls without. 119 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:15,556 Speaker 3: Okay, well, just to be as clean as possible, I 120 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:18,676 Speaker 3: would keep them just with one another. I would isolate 121 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:22,396 Speaker 3: them so there's no other influences. That to me would 122 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 3: be just the strongest one. I think it would be 123 00:08:25,076 --> 00:08:26,556 Speaker 3: a beautiful experiment. 124 00:08:29,276 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: What Beninson wants to test is the impact of parenting 125 00:08:32,756 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: on gender identity. It's really hard to untangle nature and nurture. 126 00:08:36,796 --> 00:08:40,316 Speaker 1: People have been arguing about this for millennia, So Beninson says, 127 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:43,596 Speaker 1: let's just wave our magic wand put together a massive, 128 00:08:43,836 --> 00:08:47,236 Speaker 1: perfectly designed experiment and settle this issue once and for all. 129 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 1: If your mom and dad are confused about what gender 130 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 1: you belong to, does that make any difference to you. 131 00:08:54,196 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: Beninson has been researching the behavior of children for more 132 00:08:57,236 --> 00:09:00,316 Speaker 1: than four decades, and she's pretty sure what the answer is. 133 00:09:00,796 --> 00:09:03,196 Speaker 1: She thinks that if you take boys and raise them 134 00:09:03,236 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: as girls, nothing's going to change. Remove the penises, dress 135 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:09,596 Speaker 1: them in pink, none of that will alter their bea. 136 00:09:09,716 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 3: Those would be the ones engaging in rough and tumble play. 137 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 3: Those would be the ones who would be punching each 138 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:18,036 Speaker 3: other and competing to show they're the best. They would 139 00:09:18,076 --> 00:09:21,556 Speaker 3: be the ones who love transportation, vehicles and weapons. 140 00:09:21,796 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 1: As for the girls, Beninson says, calling them Johnny and 141 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:28,436 Speaker 1: giving them baseball caps isn't going to change anything. 142 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 3: The one with the penises, right, who are actually xx females, 143 00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 3: they would be much more concerned about their survival they're 144 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:40,116 Speaker 3: taking care of either the dolls or the actual babies. 145 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:44,356 Speaker 3: They're cleaning and making sure hygiene is better. They're cooking, 146 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 3: either real or pretend. They're doing the kinds of things 147 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 3: that anybody who goes into a preschool seas are not 148 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 3: socialized by anyone, but naturally occurring. And you would see 149 00:09:55,316 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 3: the division, so that in this case, the ones with 150 00:09:59,396 --> 00:10:04,236 Speaker 3: the penises would be crowding around the sink and crowding 151 00:10:04,276 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 3: around the stove and the baby dolls and dressing up, 152 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:13,716 Speaker 3: and the ones without the penises would be jumping on 153 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 3: top of each other's heads and competing to throw the 154 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 3: best arrow or paper airplane or whatever it is. 155 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: Parenting does not override biology. That's what Benison already believes. 156 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:28,916 Speaker 1: So why do the magic wand if she already knows 157 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: the answer, Because we don't just do experiments to learn 158 00:10:33,276 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: the truth. We also do experiments to persuade others of 159 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 1: the truth, in this case, to persuade the legions of 160 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 1: neurotic North American parents who believe that it is their 161 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 1: own practice and attitudes that shape their children's fundamental nature. 162 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:51,556 Speaker 3: Okay, so most people will say to me nowadays, at 163 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:55,916 Speaker 3: least here in the West, that parents are raising their 164 00:10:55,996 --> 00:11:00,276 Speaker 3: daughters arbitrarily to be a certain way, and parents are 165 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 3: raising their sons, and all we have to do is 166 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 3: stop that, and then there will be no basic instincts, 167 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:09,636 Speaker 3: there will be no divide between males and female, there 168 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 3: will be nothing that we are motivated or emotionally attracted 169 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:17,156 Speaker 3: to naturally biologically. 170 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 1: Now, maybe you're one of those parents in the Nurture 171 00:11:20,116 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 1: over Nature camp. Maybe you think that what Joyce Benison 172 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:27,516 Speaker 1: thinks is crazy and offensive. Maybe you're write maybe there 173 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 1: are children out there who are shaped by their parents 174 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:34,476 Speaker 1: careful administrations, like a lump of clay from a potter's wheel. 175 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 1: That's why we're doing an experiment. Wait, so how long 176 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:41,236 Speaker 1: do you let this experiment run? At what point do 177 00:11:41,316 --> 00:11:42,876 Speaker 1: you unblind the parents? 178 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 3: Okay, so now we're talking about ethics, right, because if 179 00:11:46,676 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 3: I were really. 180 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 1: We've waved ethical constraints. But from your purposes, it needs 181 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 1: to run for how many years to get a persuasive result? 182 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, obviously hormones come online and you'd have 183 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:02,076 Speaker 3: to do too much to meet it. Run this through puberty, 184 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 3: but I would absolutely run it through age five. 185 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:12,396 Speaker 1: Just think if Benison's right, nature triumphs over nurture. So 186 00:12:12,436 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 1: you're lying in your shrink's couch and the shrink is 187 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 1: making you think it's all your mother's fault, which is 188 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: what they do, of course, only now you get to say, actually, 189 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 1: there was this cool experiment where they chopped off the 190 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:26,516 Speaker 1: penises of little boys and found out mom doesn't matter 191 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: that much. You have I shocked your delicate sensibilities. Just wait, 192 00:12:36,116 --> 00:13:02,156 Speaker 1: We've got four more experiments to go after the break. Okay, 193 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 1: we're back on to our next impossible, possibly unethical, but 194 00:13:06,036 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 1: super interesting and useful experiment, the magic of New York 195 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:14,236 Speaker 1: University psychologist Adam Alter. I had a lot of internal 196 00:13:14,236 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 1: debate about whether to include this one, because Adam happens 197 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:18,956 Speaker 1: to be a very good friend of mine, so I 198 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:22,116 Speaker 1: worried it would look like favoritism. But then I thought 199 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: back to the first six seasons of revisionist history and 200 00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: decided it's a little late in the day to be 201 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:29,036 Speaker 1: raising journalistic standards. 202 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:33,236 Speaker 6: Kidding, Okay, So what I want to do is I 203 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 6: want to go to every hospital in the country, every 204 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:40,676 Speaker 6: maternity ward, and when every baby is born, some person 205 00:13:40,836 --> 00:13:42,996 Speaker 6: randomly walks around and puts a little sticker on the 206 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 6: baby's forehead, and the sticker determines which condition the child 207 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 6: will be in for the first let's say, fifty years 208 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 6: of life. 209 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:51,676 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, no, you have a magical I'll be modest 210 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 1: about it. You have a magic wand you're allowed to 211 00:13:53,316 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 1: fifty okay, five, zero, fifty. 212 00:13:55,116 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 6: It's a fifty year experiment. And what we're going to 213 00:13:57,876 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 6: do is based on the color of the sticker, We're 214 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 6: going to assign kids to different conditions of exposure to 215 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:04,916 Speaker 6: screens and social media, and we're going to track their 216 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 6: progress across the lifespan, across those fifty years or even longer. 217 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:10,916 Speaker 1: Alter wants to do this because he points out that 218 00:14:10,956 --> 00:14:13,716 Speaker 1: we basically have no idea what the long term effects 219 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: of screen time and social media are. Hence the Alter 220 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:18,516 Speaker 1: screen test. 221 00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:21,316 Speaker 6: There are two camps right now. There's a camp that 222 00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 6: thinks that social media screens all the concerns about those 223 00:14:24,636 --> 00:14:28,116 Speaker 6: are moral panic, there's nothing to be concerned about. And 224 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,636 Speaker 6: then there's another camp that thinks this is really a 225 00:14:30,676 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 6: serious concern. 226 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 1: What are all the things we're looking for? 227 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 6: The thing that I want to know, number one is 228 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:39,276 Speaker 6: is it bad for your well being? Are you less happy? 229 00:14:39,396 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 6: Do you have a less meaningful life. Are you less 230 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,036 Speaker 6: connected to other people if you have access to screens 231 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:47,236 Speaker 6: throughout your life? And how much is a problem? Is 232 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:49,756 Speaker 6: one hour a day? Okay? Is three hours? Okay? Is five? 233 00:14:49,796 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 6: I'm sure there's a point at which it becomes problematic. 234 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:56,636 Speaker 6: There's some evidence that your ability to distinguish subtle facial 235 00:14:56,716 --> 00:14:59,836 Speaker 6: cues that show, say, the difference between fear and sadness 236 00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 6: comes from spending a lot of time as a kid, 237 00:15:01,876 --> 00:15:04,556 Speaker 6: as a very young kid, looking at people face to face. 238 00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:07,356 Speaker 6: So I would like to know do kids who spend 239 00:15:07,356 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 6: a huge amount of time in front of screens never 240 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 6: develop those capacities? Is there a critical period where if 241 00:15:11,956 --> 00:15:14,156 Speaker 6: you don't develop them young, it becomes very hard to 242 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:16,076 Speaker 6: develop them later on. And I think there's some evidence 243 00:15:16,116 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 6: to suggest that the ability to tell, for example, to 244 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 6: get a sense of the effects of your actions on 245 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:24,316 Speaker 6: other people seems really important. So as a little kid 246 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 6: you take another kid's toy, that kid bops you on 247 00:15:27,276 --> 00:15:29,396 Speaker 6: the head and says, don't do that. That's really important 248 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:31,516 Speaker 6: to learn. And I think to the extent you're spending 249 00:15:31,516 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 6: a huge amount of time on screens, the feedback you 250 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 6: get when you do social things is low fidelity, it's 251 00:15:37,796 --> 00:15:40,796 Speaker 6: slow to arrive, it's not physical, and so I think 252 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 6: these kids are going to learn social things less quickly, 253 00:15:43,516 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 6: and I think that might be problematic as well. So 254 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:48,796 Speaker 6: that's the early part of life as we get older. 255 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 6: I mean, you just have to talk to parents of 256 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,316 Speaker 6: teens and even to the teens themselves, and they'll tell 257 00:15:54,356 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 6: you I am less happy because I have access to 258 00:15:56,516 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 6: social media. A lot of teens will tell you this, 259 00:15:58,476 --> 00:16:01,396 Speaker 6: and their parents will say the same, And so I'd 260 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:03,836 Speaker 6: like a sort of harder edged way to measure that. 261 00:16:04,076 --> 00:16:06,116 Speaker 6: What does that exactly mean? And is it because you're 262 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 6: exposed to the best one percent of everyone else life 263 00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 6: that you become less happy or is there something else 264 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:15,156 Speaker 6: going on? So those are the kinds of questions that 265 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:16,836 Speaker 6: I'd want to know about teens in particular. 266 00:16:19,196 --> 00:16:22,236 Speaker 1: What's interesting about Adam Alter's magic wand is that it 267 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:26,116 Speaker 1: runs counter to the penis test. The penis test has 268 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 1: the potential to absolve parents of all blame. Alter's experiment 269 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:33,156 Speaker 1: has the potential to make you feel really, really bad 270 00:16:33,156 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 1: about a decision you made for your children. There's no 271 00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 1: middle ground with magic wands. There was only euphoria on 272 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 1: the one hand and a mountain of guilt on the other. 273 00:16:43,996 --> 00:16:47,236 Speaker 1: This reminds me oddly love of my own childhood because 274 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: I was the only child in my primary school without 275 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 1: was that the only one, one of the only ones 276 00:16:54,636 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 1: without television? Right, So I was the child who was 277 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:02,476 Speaker 1: listening to these conversations about things that I had never 278 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:06,276 Speaker 1: heard of, these television shows which meant nothing to me. 279 00:17:07,156 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: Who the pattern of my days was complete different for 280 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 1: everybody else's. So I sort of get how that works, 281 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:17,436 Speaker 1: and just see how I turned out needlessly provocative, irrationally 282 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: obsessed with running a delightful podcast host. You see what 283 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 1: I'm saying? Was it because I didn't watch television until 284 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 1: I went to college? We just don't know. You know, 285 00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 1: what we need to give them are old school blackberries. Yeah, 286 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: so it's a phone, it's email, and that's it, right. 287 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 5: Yeah. 288 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:41,316 Speaker 1: So we're basically talking about creating a BlackBerry generation alongside 289 00:17:41,356 --> 00:17:47,476 Speaker 1: an iPhone generation, and we're controlling, we're controlling for the 290 00:17:47,556 --> 00:17:54,596 Speaker 1: nature of their phone and observing the outcome. Yes, no 291 00:17:54,676 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 1: one is happier, by the way, with an experiment that 292 00:17:57,196 --> 00:18:01,436 Speaker 1: brings back the BlackBerry. BlackBerry, as I'm constantly reminding people, 293 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:04,836 Speaker 1: was made of my hometown. My tagline on my old 294 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 1: BlackBerry emails was there's no school like old school. Oh man, 295 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: I missed the simple pleasures driving down the highway rocking 296 00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: out to the litist Nirvana album on my CD player 297 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 1: while strolling through my emails on my BlackBerry with my 298 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: free hand. 299 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 6: My son started kindergarten. He's five, and for the first 300 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:31,836 Speaker 6: time he got an iPad to take home. All of 301 00:18:31,876 --> 00:18:33,636 Speaker 6: his little friends have got these screens, and so they 302 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:35,276 Speaker 6: talk about the things they do on the screens at 303 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 6: the end of the day. And I think that's a 304 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:39,916 Speaker 6: completely different thing. How it's changed the way he's interacting 305 00:18:39,956 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 6: with all these little kids versus what it's like to 306 00:18:42,476 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 6: get him off the screen at the end of the day. 307 00:18:44,196 --> 00:18:45,676 Speaker 6: I think both are interesting questions. 308 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:50,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wait, I can't believe that in the middle 309 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:55,476 Speaker 1: of you imagining this magic wand experiment involving limited access 310 00:18:55,516 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 1: to screens of social. 311 00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 6: Media, your own son is being given and I, yeah, well, 312 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:04,116 Speaker 6: we had no say. This is what schools do today, 313 00:19:04,116 --> 00:19:06,076 Speaker 6: They give kids iPads. Unfortunately. 314 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:14,476 Speaker 1: Okay, we have the penis test, we have the altar 315 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:19,516 Speaker 1: screen test. Next up. Nancy Siegel, who teaches a cal 316 00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:25,076 Speaker 1: State Fullerton and studies what she calls scientific treasures. Twins. 317 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 1: Twins are catnip for psychologists, and no one loves a 318 00:19:29,636 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 1: twin more than Nancy Siegel, who is also herself a twin. Now, 319 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 1: you might say, aren't identical twins in effect nature's magic 320 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:41,956 Speaker 1: wand a little bit of genetic wizardry that lets us 321 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: see things we would never know about otherwise. Absolutely in fact, 322 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:49,916 Speaker 1: and this will require a little digression. Sigull once uncovered 323 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 1: a totally bananas real life twins case study. Two sets 324 00:19:55,396 --> 00:19:58,836 Speaker 1: of twins born a day apart in Columbia. 325 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 7: One pair born in the lively capital city of Bogata, 326 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 7: the other born one hundred and ten miles to the north, 327 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 7: in the most rural area with no running water, no 328 00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 7: flush toilets, no nothing. One little boys up north was 329 00:20:14,356 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 7: very sick, so at day one or two, his grandmother 330 00:20:17,516 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 7: brought him to the better hospital in Bogata where he 331 00:20:20,436 --> 00:20:22,916 Speaker 7: was switched with one of the twins and the other pair. 332 00:20:23,356 --> 00:20:27,596 Speaker 7: So this is an extraordinary double switch case. So you 333 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:32,276 Speaker 7: had two sets of boys who were identical twins to 334 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 7: somebody else, with growing up together thinking they were fraternal twins. 335 00:20:36,116 --> 00:20:39,476 Speaker 7: So you can look at the unrelated pair. This is 336 00:20:39,516 --> 00:20:43,476 Speaker 7: somebody that that person A was raised with, so twin 337 00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:46,396 Speaker 7: B was unrelated to him. But then remember, twin B 338 00:20:47,276 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 7: has an identical brother somewhere else that person A was 339 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 7: never raised with. So how similar are you to somebody 340 00:20:54,596 --> 00:20:57,956 Speaker 7: you're unrelated to but raised with, but unrelated to and 341 00:20:57,996 --> 00:21:04,436 Speaker 7: not raised with. So that was that was something I 342 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:06,996 Speaker 7: addressed in my book because I had that, and that 343 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 7: was completely unique, completely. 344 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:15,316 Speaker 1: The Bogata Twins. How did they discover the error? Oh? 345 00:21:15,556 --> 00:21:19,516 Speaker 7: Good question. The boys up in the north moved down 346 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:23,196 Speaker 7: to Bogata to make a living. They became butchers in 347 00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 7: a local supermarket. Actually, Bogata is a big city. It 348 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 7: wasn't so local. But a friend of one of the 349 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 7: other guys who was raised there went into the butcher's 350 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 7: shop and she thought, hoor hey, what are you doing here? 351 00:21:37,716 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 7: And he said, my name is William and she could 352 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 7: hardly believe it. So she took a picture of Williams 353 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 7: showed it to her friend, hora hey, and Hojorgey, of 354 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 7: course it's a twin, right, he thinks he's a twin 355 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 7: to the sky Carlos. And anyway, they sat on it 356 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 7: for a while But then Porgey went online and he 357 00:21:53,556 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 7: saw himself in clothes he knew he didn't own, and 358 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 7: he saw someone next to this guy who looked just 359 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 7: like his twin brother, only wasn't his twin brother. And 360 00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:08,276 Speaker 7: they met, they got together, and of course they were 361 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:13,196 Speaker 7: all in shock, particularly because the one guy who was 362 00:22:13,276 --> 00:22:15,836 Speaker 7: raised in the city knew that if things had gone right, 363 00:22:16,236 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 7: he who had been raised in a very rural area 364 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:21,636 Speaker 7: and he's someone who enjoyed the city. And the guy 365 00:22:21,756 --> 00:22:23,956 Speaker 7: up in the north, who should have been raised in 366 00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:28,356 Speaker 7: Bogata was desperate for education, wanted to learn, and had 367 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 7: no opportunities, never went past the fifth grade. So there 368 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 7: were some tensions in the beginning. But actually I will 369 00:22:35,476 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 7: say that these four boys are the most gracious and 370 00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 7: loving of any of the switch to birth families I've encountered. 371 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 7: They call themselves a group of four. They make decisions together, 372 00:22:46,716 --> 00:22:48,836 Speaker 7: and any differences they had, I mean, it was not 373 00:22:48,876 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 7: their fault. These things just happen. Sometimes they get along beautifully. Now, 374 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:57,756 Speaker 7: all for all combinations of twinsally incredible story. 375 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:05,276 Speaker 1: Now could you imagine a magic wand replication of that 376 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:11,076 Speaker 1: real life experiment? Sure, but Siegel has a a bigger idea. 377 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 7: This is a new buzzword in the twin world. Biracial twins. 378 00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 7: What are they? They come about naturally when an interracial 379 00:23:19,196 --> 00:23:21,636 Speaker 7: couple marries and has children. So let's say you have 380 00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 7: a Caucasian mother and an African American father, so the 381 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:29,516 Speaker 7: children are really both biracial, but given the way that 382 00:23:29,556 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 7: the genes segregate, one child looks very Caucasian and one 383 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 7: child looks very African American. Now these are fraternal twins, 384 00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:41,876 Speaker 7: so you're not controlling for the genes. What I would 385 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 7: like to do, if I could, would be to have 386 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 7: a set of identical twins and have them look exactly 387 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:52,516 Speaker 7: the same, except that one would look Caucasian and one 388 00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 7: would look African American, or one would look Asian and 389 00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 7: one would look Hispanic. But still raise them together and 390 00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:01,876 Speaker 7: just see what their different life experiences are like and 391 00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 7: how that would impact in their development. And I got 392 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 7: this idea because I've had fraternal twins in my classes 393 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 7: at the university. Who are these biracial fraternal twins, And 394 00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:17,236 Speaker 7: they've told me they have very different life experiences. But again, 395 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:19,836 Speaker 7: you're not controlling for the genes. So if you had 396 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 7: monopsychotic or identical twins like this. I think it would 397 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 7: really show us in a new way. And this is 398 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 7: what information we don't have so well. 399 00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: The magic wand we have to waive here is to 400 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,876 Speaker 1: take identical twins and make them not identical in their 401 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:39,276 Speaker 1: skin color exactly. We have the twins dressed the same, 402 00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 1: eat the same go to the same schools, same summer camps, 403 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,036 Speaker 1: play on the same soccer teams, and do that for 404 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:50,596 Speaker 1: hundreds of pairs of twins from thousands of different families, rich, poor, 405 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:54,876 Speaker 1: the Southern United States, the Midwest country city, And after 406 00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:57,756 Speaker 1: thirty or forty years, we gather them together in a 407 00:24:57,796 --> 00:25:00,756 Speaker 1: big convention center and have them go up on stage 408 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:04,956 Speaker 1: one period of time and talk about all the experiences 409 00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:10,156 Speaker 1: they shared as almost identical twins, What was same, what 410 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,556 Speaker 1: exactly was different? Who wouldn't want to be in the 411 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:17,076 Speaker 1: audience for that, because suddenly we would have a very 412 00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 1: different conversation about things like discrimination. I have to say, though, 413 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 1: that of all these magic wands so far, this one 414 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:29,916 Speaker 1: is the hardest, the cruelest. Yes, it would teach us 415 00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 1: a lot, but I couldn't help thinking of my own mother, 416 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 1: who was an identical twin. She and her sister went 417 00:25:35,516 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: to college in England from Jamaica in the nineteen fifties. 418 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: What if my aunt had been white? What would it 419 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 1: have meant for their relationship? If suddenly the person whom 420 00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:47,596 Speaker 1: my mother had shared everything with for the first twenty 421 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:50,556 Speaker 1: years of her life was suddenly on the other side 422 00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:53,156 Speaker 1: of the racial fence at a time and a place 423 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:56,956 Speaker 1: when the racial fences were really high. It's too much 424 00:25:56,996 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 1: to think about. But that's why a magic wand is 425 00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:06,676 Speaker 1: sometimes a powerful thing. Siegel had so many ideas. She 426 00:26:06,796 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 1: described a magical wand where identical twins'll be born twenty 427 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:14,836 Speaker 1: five years apart, same genes, different generations. Think of all 428 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:17,036 Speaker 1: the things you could do once you suspend this little 429 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 1: law of nature. We could go back to Adam Alter's 430 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 1: screen test, because the perfect way to do his BlackBerry 431 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:26,676 Speaker 1: versus iPhone experiment, now that I think about it, is 432 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: with massive numbers of identical twins, same genes, different cell phones. 433 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 1: Now imagine we place those twins in different technological eras. 434 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 1: The first set born in nineteen eighty who grew up 435 00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:43,316 Speaker 1: without Instagram or Twitter, and another identical set born the 436 00:26:43,396 --> 00:26:46,356 Speaker 1: year the iPhone came out. Two thousand and seven, and 437 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 1: who grew up under the long dark shadow of Steve Jobs. 438 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 1: What do we learn from that? We learn everything. I 439 00:26:57,876 --> 00:26:59,836 Speaker 1: just realized I gave you two or was it three 440 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,916 Speaker 1: Magic one twin studies for the price of one. That's 441 00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:25,036 Speaker 1: how we roll here at Revision's history. We've done the 442 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:30,556 Speaker 1: penis test, iPhone versus BlackBerry, multi racial twin studies, and 443 00:27:30,596 --> 00:27:33,476 Speaker 1: now the magic wand has been passed. Stella Volpi a 444 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 1: nutritionist and exercise physiologist at Virginia Tech University. 445 00:27:38,796 --> 00:27:40,436 Speaker 8: How did you get to me? Because can I just 446 00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:40,796 Speaker 8: tell you? 447 00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:43,636 Speaker 2: I see this email from Malcolm Gladwell in my inbox, 448 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:45,916 Speaker 2: and I was at a conference and I said to 449 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:48,196 Speaker 2: my friend, Okay, this is real. 450 00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 8: I think this is the real Malcolm Gladwell. 451 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:56,196 Speaker 1: Yes, this is the real Malcolm Gladwell. And Stellivolpi's experiment 452 00:27:56,716 --> 00:28:03,076 Speaker 1: was my very favorite. Her premise is this, Americans are 453 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:06,036 Speaker 1: getting less and less healthy. We need to try new 454 00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 1: strategies to change that. So for her Magic Wand, she 455 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 1: divides the United States in half. One half is the 456 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 1: control group, which continues life as ever, eating Dorito's and 457 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 1: watching Netflix. Over the other half of the country, those 458 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:23,116 Speaker 1: in the treatment condition. Volpi waves her magic wand and 459 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 1: gets to work making all kinds of subtle and nuts 460 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: of subtle changes right now. So much of our focus 461 00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:35,156 Speaker 1: when it comes to getting people to improve their health 462 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 1: behaviors is to tell them what to do and instruct 463 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:43,036 Speaker 1: them and cajole them and such. But you're talking about 464 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 1: a series of interventions in their built environment. Should we 465 00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:48,676 Speaker 1: just do it and not say anything? 466 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 6: Yes? 467 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:53,276 Speaker 8: I did that actually in a dining hall at a university. 468 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 8: Oh really, we changed the portion sizes. We decrease the 469 00:28:57,076 --> 00:28:58,756 Speaker 8: portion sizes. The students didn't know. 470 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:02,556 Speaker 1: Turns out it worked the students instead of Olpi's stealth 471 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 1: small portion cafeteria didn't gain the freshman fifteen, The students 472 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 1: in the control group did. And you didn't tell them 473 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 1: that you were decreasing the portion size. 474 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:14,116 Speaker 8: We didn't. 475 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:16,876 Speaker 1: Now did the students any of them suspect what was 476 00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:17,716 Speaker 1: going on? You know? 477 00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 2: They didn't because that and I really give credit to 478 00:29:21,316 --> 00:29:24,076 Speaker 2: the food service employees. Students didn't quite know that the 479 00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:27,076 Speaker 2: pizza was cut a little bit smaller, or that the 480 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 2: cake was cut in like, instead of eighty four slices, 481 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 2: there were ninety six. So this is what we had 482 00:29:32,836 --> 00:29:34,876 Speaker 2: to work with the food service folks to do and 483 00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 2: they were amazing. 484 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 1: So Volpi's magic wand experiment is also a stealth operation. 485 00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 1: If you're in the experimental half of the country, you 486 00:29:44,356 --> 00:29:47,436 Speaker 1: wake up one morning and you find a lot of 487 00:29:47,436 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: the elevators are gone. What's your elevators threshold? So I 488 00:29:53,276 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: can if I live in Manhattan in a twenty store building, 489 00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:58,116 Speaker 1: You're not going to make me walk up. But what's 490 00:29:58,156 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: the point at which I get to use in elevator 491 00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:03,436 Speaker 1: if I'm otherwise unencumbered? Right? Three stories? 492 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:06,636 Speaker 8: Poor, I'm going to say six stories. 493 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:10,196 Speaker 1: She wants to swap out hard chairs and offices for 494 00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:14,156 Speaker 1: bouncy balls, give kids standing desks in the classroom, put 495 00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:16,236 Speaker 1: a quarter mile between a parking lot and the building 496 00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:21,316 Speaker 1: it serves, give grocery stores a makeover. Yeah wait, Stelle, 497 00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:23,396 Speaker 1: I just had a good idea. This is going to 498 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 1: My idea is going to uh is going to link 499 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: two of your things. Okay, your your grocery store and 500 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: your stairs. Idea? What about this? In the in the 501 00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:37,996 Speaker 1: treatment condition, grocery stores can still carry whatever they want 502 00:30:37,996 --> 00:30:41,916 Speaker 1: to carry, but everything that Stella deems to be unhealthy 503 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:46,196 Speaker 1: is now on the on a third floor of the 504 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:49,236 Speaker 1: grocery store. If you want a chocolate bar, if you 505 00:30:49,276 --> 00:30:52,156 Speaker 1: want cheerios, you're going to walk up two flights to 506 00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:53,236 Speaker 1: get them. 507 00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 8: Okay, that is so brilliant, Thank you. I love that. 508 00:30:57,876 --> 00:31:00,236 Speaker 1: So we can do that, right, we can do that. 509 00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we could wave our magic one. Now, think 510 00:31:05,116 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: about how much we could learn from Stella Volpi's idea. 511 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,556 Speaker 1: Maybe the people without the elevators and with the parking 512 00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:15,396 Speaker 1: lots down the street rise up in protest. Maybe they 513 00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:17,276 Speaker 1: would all move to the other half of the country 514 00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 1: in a huff. That would tell us something, tell us 515 00:31:20,356 --> 00:31:23,516 Speaker 1: to give up. But maybe they just shrug and get 516 00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:26,396 Speaker 1: used to it. Or maybe Stella Volpi's treatment half of 517 00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:29,436 Speaker 1: the country gets so fit and happy and tough minded 518 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 1: that the slacker half gets envious and competitive and starts 519 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:37,356 Speaker 1: making the same changes in their world. Or maybe nobody 520 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 1: wants to hire the slacker half, and all of a 521 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:43,156 Speaker 1: sudden there's a wave of workforce discrimination suits against the 522 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:46,316 Speaker 1: slacker half for being slackers, and the Supreme Court has 523 00:31:46,356 --> 00:31:50,396 Speaker 1: to weigh in in Slacker vi Vulpi. The point is, 524 00:31:50,756 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 1: right now, we're getting nowhere, insisting on trying to educate 525 00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:59,276 Speaker 1: and persuade and create awareness. Maybe it's time for us 526 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 1: to admit that all this talking does nothing. We just 527 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:11,516 Speaker 1: need to do stuff. I realized my school in Canada 528 00:32:11,556 --> 00:32:13,676 Speaker 1: did a version of this. It's a slightly cruel version 529 00:32:13,716 --> 00:32:16,196 Speaker 1: of this, but this is Canada in the seventies. So 530 00:32:16,956 --> 00:32:19,876 Speaker 1: the bus would dropped me off at my school and 531 00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:23,796 Speaker 1: all the other kids from my bus route at eight 532 00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 1: thirty five in the morning. Okay, school starts nine in 533 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:32,156 Speaker 1: my little town. From eight thirty five to nine, the 534 00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:35,236 Speaker 1: doors to the school were locked, so you had twenty 535 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:38,116 Speaker 1: five minutes of enforced playtime. Now, I will point it 536 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:42,556 Speaker 1: to you. It's Canada. It's like twenty below to this day. 537 00:32:42,796 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: I remember, you know I'm skinny. I'm a little skinny, 538 00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:48,076 Speaker 1: Like the only way to stay wanted is to run 539 00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,356 Speaker 1: around like a madman for twenty five minutes. It was like, 540 00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:54,076 Speaker 1: it's basically put a gun to our head and said 541 00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:56,796 Speaker 1: you you know, if you want to you can. You 542 00:32:56,836 --> 00:33:01,436 Speaker 1: can just stand there, but you'll you'll get prostpited. Yep. 543 00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:07,716 Speaker 1: See this belongs in the in the treatment condition. Do 544 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:12,036 Speaker 1: you know how long winter last in Ontario? Like four months? 545 00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:18,596 Speaker 1: For four months, I froze to death. Every single morning, 546 00:33:19,876 --> 00:33:20,556 Speaker 1: and look. 547 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 8: And look look at the character it built in you? Right, 548 00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:25,636 Speaker 8: good character? 549 00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:30,036 Speaker 1: Absolutely? I have am I complaining now? The penis swamp 550 00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 1: iPhone versus BlackBerry by Racial Twins Slacker v Volpi. How 551 00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:37,956 Speaker 1: is the world not a better place if we could 552 00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:42,956 Speaker 1: learn from those four experiments? But wait, I know what 553 00:33:42,996 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 1: you're thinking, Malcolm. You promised us five magic ones. Where's 554 00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:49,876 Speaker 1: the fifth? The fifth, my friends, is so massive and 555 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:52,756 Speaker 1: wonky and random that I felt it deserved an episode 556 00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 1: all to itself. 557 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 2: We did have to really put on a lot of 558 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:59,276 Speaker 2: gear to get in there for food safety reasons. 559 00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:02,676 Speaker 1: I think that's in our next episode. Our experiment of 560 00:34:02,676 --> 00:34:06,996 Speaker 1: a season is just getting started. You wearing like hard. 561 00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:13,196 Speaker 8: Hats, gloves, hard jackets, out caps for our hair that 562 00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:14,716 Speaker 8: didn't really work for either of us. 563 00:34:23,876 --> 00:34:27,436 Speaker 1: Revisionist History is produced by Eloise Linton, Leeman Gestu, and 564 00:34:27,556 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, with Tolly Emlin and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our 565 00:34:32,076 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: editor is Julia Barton. Our executive producer is mil LaBelle. 566 00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 1: Original scoring by Luis Karra, mastering by Flon Williams, and 567 00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:45,036 Speaker 1: engineering by Nina Lawrence. Fact checking by Keishaw Williams. I'm 568 00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:45,716 Speaker 1: Malcolm Blawa,