1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. This is the true 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: story about the COVID pandemic that many of you have 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: never heard. It's told by my guest today, Alex Barnson. 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Alex new book Pandemia, How Coronavirus Hysteria took over Our Government, 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: Rights and Lives is out today, and I wanted to 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: read his statement from the press release for the book, 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: because I was really struck by it. He says, quote, 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: a few of us looking closely at the data, not 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: what the health authorities or governors or reporters were saying 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: about the data, but at the data itself, could see 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: two crucial facts emerging as early as the first week 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: of April twenty twenty. First, COVID was far less threatening 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: than it had originally seemed. Yes, it could be deadly, 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 1: especially to the elderly and people with severe comorbidities such 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: as kinney disease, but it would not overwhelm the medical system, 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: much less all of society. Second, the lockdowns, at least 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: as the United States and Europe conducted them, were useless, 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: if not counterproductive. I'm really pleased to welcome somebody that 19 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: I admire greatly, my guest, Alex Barrinson. First of all, 20 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: before we dive into this, I want to carry you 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: back through your background twice. First, as a journalist between 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine twenty ten, you covered the drug industry 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and financial fraud as a reporter for The New York Times. 24 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: You wrote Tell your Children the Truth about Marijuana and 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: mental illness and violence, and then you went on to 26 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: be a novelist soon at to second, but what do 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: you think you learned in your journalistic years that then 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: influenced how you've written pandemia? Oh? I mean, that's a 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: great question, because the connection is very real. And I 30 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,279 Speaker 1: covered the drug industry for the Times for a period 31 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: of years, and I saw a couple of the really 32 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: important lawsuits up close and failed drugs up close. Yox. 33 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: Most importantly, virus was a drug that Murk made an 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: antire threads strug, a painkiller that they started selling in 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine and had to pull from the market 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four after it was conclusively proven 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: that the drug caused heart attacks, and the best estimates 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: are that the drug caused one hundred and forty thousand 39 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: heart attacks and killed up to fifty five thousand people, 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: which is something that everyone seems to have forgotten about, 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: this enormous damage that virus caused. And Murk is not 42 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: a second tier drug company. They are arguably the worldwide 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: leader in pharmaceutical development. They're arguably the best drug company 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: in the world. And yet they had this happen. And 45 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: the story that unfolded that came out from the documents 46 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: as part of these lawsuits that were filed against Murk 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: by people who had taken virus and had heart attacks 48 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: and died, and also by investigations from the FDA and elsewhere, 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: was the story of a company that developed this drug, 50 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: realized early on that there was a serious potential problem 51 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: with it in terms of its tendency to cause clots 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: that could cause heart attacks and strokes, and yet pushed 53 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: forward with development anyway and sort of told itself a 54 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: story that the drug wasn't actually as dangerous as the 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: data made it seem to be. And I watched this happen. 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: You can see it in the documents, and you can 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: see that the guy who was the chief medical officer, 58 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the chief scientist of Murk at the time, a brilliant 59 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: scientist named Ed Skolnick, had decided that bias was going 60 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: to move forward, and that no one within the company 61 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: could really stand up to him, including the CEO. I mean, 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: Skolnick was clearly more powerful than the CEO. Inside work. 63 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: You mentioned my novels. I think this informed my novels too, 64 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: because large, powerful organizations, whether they're MURK or the CIA, 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: are the same everywhere. You know, once a decision gets made, 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: it's very very hard for people internally to undo it 67 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: if it comes from the top. And so I think 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: we're seeing that on a grand, grand scale with COVID. 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: So that was sort of like the mindset that I saw. 70 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: But I also grew to understand some of the complexities 71 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: of the development of drugs, and especially of the way 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: clinical trials can be used by drug companies to their 73 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: advantage and so, and I think that's something that people 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: who don't cover the drug industry have no idea about it. 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of very highly technical. And I'm 76 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: not a PhD. I'm not a scientist, but I've always 77 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: been pretty good at math and statistics, and so I 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: was pretty quickly able to see problems in the data 79 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: around COVID, and then problems and we can talk about 80 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: the vaccines too, but problems in the clinical trial design 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: for the vaccines. And so people say to me, you're 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: not a scientist, and I say, that's true. I'm not 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: a scientist, but I'm good at one thing, and that's 84 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: comparing whether what people are saying matches what the underlying 85 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: data is. That's something I would say I'm reasonably good at. 86 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: And it was very clear from very early on in 87 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: COVID that what we were being told didn't match the data. 88 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: I'm curious for a second, as you know, because we've 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: talked about it. I love your novels. I think you 90 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: are remarkable, weaving together action, a strong central figure. But 91 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: you've made me realize as I listened to you just now, 92 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: you've had a real knack both of dealing with the 93 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: bureaucracy of intelligence and counter terrorism and with the layers 94 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: of deception and reality. And I'm curious. First I just 95 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: have to ask you, because we've never really talked about this, 96 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: what led you to decide to write novels given your 97 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: background as a journalist and as a nonfiction writer. I 98 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: decided to write The Faithful Spy, which is the first 99 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: Wells novel, really because I've been in a rack briefly 100 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: but a couple of times for The Times, and I 101 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: thought there was stuff that you know as a reporter 102 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: writing from Times, you just can't capture. There's a world 103 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: you can't capture. And I wanted to do that, And 104 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: I also wanted to try to write fiction. And I 105 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: had this idea for this character who served as high 106 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: noon guy, who nobody really trusts. The townspeople don't trust him, 107 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: yet he is a good guy, and so that's who 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: John Wells is. He's in Afghanistan trying to infiltrate al Qaeda, 109 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: and along the way he sort of gives everything up. 110 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: And when he comes back to the United States, he 111 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: finds that the CIA does not trust him because he 112 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: has been gone so long. But I would say the 113 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: books over time is that that they became less about Wells. 114 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: I would say they became more about the agency and 115 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: about these bigger picture questions. I became a novelist because 116 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: of Iraq, I think, but I stayed in novelists because 117 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to explore this world. If that makes sense. 118 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: It assumes to me that the lessons you learned describing 119 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: both deception and bureaucratic infighting in a sense shaped you 120 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: and made you more capable of looking at what's happening 121 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the way the elites and the establishment 122 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: have dealt with COVID. You know, no one's ever said 123 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: that before, but I think that's a really good point. Yeah, 124 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: I think there is a connection there. You also got 125 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: into another field that is becoming more important to us, 126 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: particularly the week that the CEO of Twitter has announced 127 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: suddenly he's stepping down. When you wrote Unreported Truth, Twitter 128 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: banned you and Amazon attempted to ban you as the 129 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: largest bookseller in the world. I mean, how did you 130 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: deal with all that? Just to walk you through the 131 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: chronology of what happened, Starting in June of twenty twenty, 132 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: I wrote these four booklets are called the Unreported Truths Booklets, 133 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: and you can buy them on Amazon. They've actually sold, 134 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: you know, quite well over the last eighteen months or so, 135 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: and i'd sort of become this voice about anti lockdown, 136 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: anti mask opening schools. The thing I'm proud of stuff 137 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: of all the things I've written in the last eighteen months, 138 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: was my early and strong position that schools should be open, 139 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: should remain open, that we were really damaging our children, 140 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: and I think that is the consensus now. I think 141 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: most people would agree that the states that kept schools 142 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: closed in the twenty twenty twenty twenty one school year 143 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: made a giant mistake and that's a year will never 144 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: get back for those kids, and it should never have 145 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: happened and it will not happen again. And I was 146 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: saying that as early as basically the beginning of May 147 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and took a lot of pressure for it, 148 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: took a lot of heat for it. So I became 149 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: this polarizing figure, I would say, both because of what 150 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: I was saying and because of my tone on Twitter, 151 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: which I think you can fairly describe sometimes as obnoxious. 152 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: And so in June twenty twenty, when I tried to 153 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: publish the first Unreported Truth booklet through Amazon, they said no, 154 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: They said they weren't going to publish it because it 155 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: was about COVID, And then I protested on Twitter, and 156 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: Elon Musk actually spoke out, and a few hours later 157 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: Amazon decided to allow me to publish the booklet. And 158 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: clearly there was tremendous demand for the booklet, because the 159 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: four booklets combined have sold something close to four hundred 160 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: thousand copies, so people wanted this information. Okay. So then 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: the next really twelve months or so, I would say, 162 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: although there was talk of censorship, it didn't touch me. 163 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: I was very aggressive about what I was saying. But 164 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: Twitter continued to allow me to tweet, and I was 165 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: in touch with a fairly senior executive of Twitter from 166 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: time to time saying here's what I'm going to talk about. 167 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: And people on Twitter, the left on Twitter hated me. 168 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: They kept calling for Twitter to ban me. Twitter took 169 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: no action, and that began to change as I took 170 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: a stronger position against the COVID vaccines. And I want 171 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: to be really clear nude, I am not an anti 172 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: vaxxer in the sense of, you know, I've been vaccinated, 173 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: my children have received all the standard childhood vaccines. I 174 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: just believe that these vaccines people say they weren't rushed. 175 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: Of course they were rushed. They were moved from not 176 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: existing to being put in people's arms, and under a year, 177 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: we took every possible shortcut to move these forward. And 178 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: I thought, at the end of last year, I thought 179 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: that was dangerous, and I think, unfortunately, some of those 180 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: dangers that were already seen are real. We can talk 181 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: about that separately. But so I was speaking out against 182 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: vaccine mandates really not so much against no one should 183 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: be vaccinated or dais graphee and oxide, none of that nonsense, magnetism, 184 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: none of that. I mean, when my mother asked me, 185 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: you know, she didn't ask me. She told me she 186 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: was getting vaccinated, and she's not seventy seven, I said, 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: go ahead. You're in an age group where you're pretty 188 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: high risk from COVID. You know, if you think this 189 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: makes sense for you, you should do it. The data 190 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: shows that it will, at least in the short term, 191 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: reduce your risk of infection. That's a good thing. So, 192 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 1: just to be clear, I have not been one of 193 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: these people who says nobody should be vaccinated. What I 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: said was, there's a lot we don't know. We rushed 195 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: these trials and there's some concerning data, and even if 196 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: the vaccines were perfect, vaccine mandates for adults for an 197 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: illness that is not that dangerous to most adults is 198 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: a huge infringement on personal liberty. Okay. So that was 199 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: my broad position on this. And as vaccine has at 200 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: see increased over the summer, as vaccination uptake decreased in 201 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: the United States starting in May and June, the Biden 202 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: administration really got frantic, and in July they said, there's 203 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: misinformation here. There's all these people spreading at misinformation disinformation, 204 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: and it's time for the social media companies to take action. 205 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: They said this publicly, and Twitter, which had taken no 206 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: action against me for more than a year, and by 207 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: the way, had explicitly told me that I was operating 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: well within its guidelines, suddenly decided that I wasn't. And 209 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: in the course of about a month and a half, 210 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: I went from being completely fine on Twitter, or Twitter 211 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: seemingly being fine with me, to Twitter banning me, and 212 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: on August twenty eighth of this year, I was banned. 213 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: I can no longer communicate with my followers. At the 214 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: time that month August, what I had written had gotten 215 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: almost two hundred million views on Twitter, so obviously at 216 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: a large audience. And almost as bad as that fact 217 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: that my archive is gone, I have it. Unfortunately, I 218 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: have access to my archive, but no one else can 219 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: see any of my tweets. And these are tweets that 220 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, most of them. Even Twitter would not argue 221 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: there's any problem with and so those are just gone. 222 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: I've been memory hold, you know, to use the term 223 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: that's in fashion now, and so that's where we are now. 224 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to commit myself on your podcast to 225 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: taking legal action, but let's just say I'm very very 226 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: close to taking legal action against Twitter. I will not 227 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: be the first person assuming I sue, if I sue, 228 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: to have sued Twitter at President Trump has sued other 229 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: social media other people have been kicked off. I sued, 230 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: and these lawsuits, for the most part, the companies have 231 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: this section to thirty defense, which has proven very strong 232 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: for them. I think I have a very strong claim. 233 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: We'll see what happens if and when I move forward, 234 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: but in the meantime, I'm denied access to this huge 235 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: platform that is really the most important journalistic audience of 236 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: our time. And you mentioned Dorsey leaving. That's a really 237 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: important point. I think the censorship is likely to get worse, 238 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: not better right now. Dorsey is a weird guy, but 239 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: he did seem to conceive of Twitter as a platform 240 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: for free speech, and it is not at all clear 241 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: that the guy who's taking over from him feels that way. 242 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: There's an aside, could you have done any of this 243 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: if you were still reporting for the New York Times. 244 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no. Has that been a big 245 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: change since you were first there. Well, the politics of 246 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: the papers. I couldn't have done it back when I 247 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: worked at the Times because back then the Times didn't 248 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: really want its reporters taking political stances or being overly 249 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: controversial on social media. Now the Times is basically fine 250 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: with that as long as the political stances are ultra 251 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: woke and the controversy puts them on the left. So 252 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: before I couldn't have done it because The Times is 253 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: pretty committed to its reporters both seeming and being as 254 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: objective as possible. Now I couldn't have done it because 255 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: the Times no longer care about that, but my views 256 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't be acceptable. As you know, there's a brilliant book 257 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: on the Spanish flu which really gives you a sense 258 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: of both how shocking it was and at the time 259 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: the science was very different than it is today because 260 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about over one hundred years ago now, but 261 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: in fact for their time, although it was not clear 262 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: that they did a particularly worse job than we've done 263 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: in the last year and a half, I know you 264 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: compare the Two, what's your sense of the way in 265 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: which the world dealt with the Spanish flu, which actually 266 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: may have been I think the Iowa flu in Israel origin, 267 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: at least there's a pretty good argument for that. And 268 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: the way in which the world has dealt with the 269 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: Chinese flu, which is pretty clearly the Wuhan flu. Well, 270 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the world didn't do that much about the 271 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: Spanish flu. This is one of the interesting things in 272 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: writing Pandemia was looking back, we had just come out 273 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: of World War One, right, which was a horrible, unnecessary 274 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: war where millions and millions of young men died, And 275 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: so the scale of the tragedy of the Spanish flu 276 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: was much greater objectively than the coronavirus. And I don't 277 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: think anybody could disagree that it's not just in the 278 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: number of people that it killed, but the fact that 279 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: it killed so many young people and children who basically 280 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: are not quite immune, but who are rarely, rarely at 281 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: serious risk from the coronavirus. So objectively, the Spanish flu 282 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: is much worse. Subjectively, the Spanish flu occupied a far 283 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: smaller share of the public attention at the time than 284 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: the coronavirus has now. People were concerned about the League 285 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: of Nations and rebuilding Europe. They were concerned about the 286 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: Soviet takeover of Russia the United States. Were we going 287 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: to allow women to vote? Were we going to prohibit alcohol? 288 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: All those things were much more interesting to people and 289 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: occupied much more attention than his flu look. Life expectancies 290 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: were shorter. People were more comfortable with the idea that 291 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: there was going to be disease and death and infectious disease, 292 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: and frankly, there were other issues around, and so we 293 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: didn't really do very much about the Spanish food. Various 294 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: localities tried various things. In San Francisco they tried masks, 295 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: and in Saint Louis they chug bars for a couple 296 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: of weeks, but none of it lasted very long. And 297 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: there's an argument now about this, but none of it 298 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: really seems to have made much difference. A guy who 299 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: ran the California State Board of Health, a doctor there, 300 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: contemporaneously wrote a paper where he basically said, I can't 301 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: really find anything that made any difference, including masking, which 302 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: is quite striking today. And then it went away and 303 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: we sort of forgot about it. Objectively. In the last 304 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: two years, something like one hundred and twenty million human 305 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: beings have died, and about five percent of those people 306 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: have died from the coronavirus, and we treat this like 307 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: it's everybody. When I was in Congress, I did a 308 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: lot of work with the Center for Disease Control, help 309 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: them get resources, and often would go over and talk 310 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: to people about epidemiology. I was really shocked at how 311 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: bad our public health system was just at gathering accurate data, 312 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: and how bad they were at the CDC in trying 313 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: to develop the lab test, etc. And how parochially inwardly 314 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: oriented they were and jealous of their authority in a 315 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: way that guaranteed that we would slow down both accurate 316 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: information and the rapid development of solutions. Did you have 317 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: any notion before this happened of how badly our public 318 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: health system has decayed? When you're entirely correct, There's a 319 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: piece I want to write, actually for my sub stacks 320 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: and now, but the Twitter has banned me. I've moved 321 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to this thing called sub stack, which in a way 322 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: it's actually more real journalism than Twitter was because I 323 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: can write at length. But I want to write a 324 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: piece headline CDC equals DMV. They really are in a 325 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: Scott Gottlie who's the former commissioner of the FDA, who's 326 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: on television constantly talking about COVID, he just wrote a 327 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: book called Uncontrolled Spread, and the book is mainly about 328 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: the CDC's failure to come up with a test early 329 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: on for COVID, and not just the failure to come 330 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: up with a working test, but that they blocked other 331 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: agencies and private companies from getting involved, exactly as you 332 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: say that they're parochial. And there's been a couple other 333 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: books written about the vaccine and vaccine development. And what's 334 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: very clear, although it's not explicitly said, is that NIH 335 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: and FDA, when they're putting warp Speed together, the idea was, 336 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: we're going to cut CDC out of this. We don't 337 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: want CDC to have anything to do with vaccine development 338 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: because they're just so bad at what they do. Look, 339 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: the FDA has lots of problems, but the FDA is 340 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: a pretty well run organization, it seems to me overall. 341 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: And NIH they do a lot of good bench science 342 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: and when they really get going, they can do good work, 343 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: although they too have problems, but they are in a 344 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: different universe than the CDC. The CDC, it's just a backwater. 345 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: I don't know when they did good work, but certainly 346 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: in a recent past they have not distinguished themselves. It 347 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: was so surprised to me not only how bad they were, 348 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: but how they want to do ensure that nobody else 349 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: could be good. That's right, that's exactly right. It was 350 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: sort of remarkable. At the same time, you had this 351 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: triple pattern. You had news media everywhere hyping this up. 352 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: This is the summer storm could become a hurricane, whether 353 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: it's six, kind of attitude that everything has to be shocking, 354 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: everything has to be on the edge of your seat 355 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: because otherwise you lose audience. Till you had the media 356 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: driving at a one level, you had this bureaucratism which 357 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: guaranteed almost every where that we wouldn't be very effective 358 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: in getting it done. And then you had I think, 359 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: a series of decisions. In a world which is holistic, 360 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: you can't have, for example, only epidemiologist in the room 361 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: if you don't have economists and sociologists and others. I 362 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: look back on somebody like Franklin Roosevelt, who instinctively would 363 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: have said to these people, we're not doing that because 364 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: it would have conflicted with his innate understanding of a 365 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: complex world and the idea of a handful of people 366 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: getting in a room making decisions that as epidemiologists were 367 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: perfectly rational. But in the real world, we're going to 368 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: cause enormous damage. And nobody in the room said wait 369 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: a second. And it's sort of like the Andromedist strained 370 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: theory that you need one person who's an outlier who 371 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: just breaks up the group. Think looking back, I'm almost 372 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: startled at the speed with which all of the elites 373 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: around the world adopted the same position, which was wrong. 374 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: So you had a monolith of error by all of 375 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: these powerful elites, and we're now learning just how much 376 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: damage they were doing. The simplest example is if you 377 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: lock everybody down and you focus only in COVID, you're 378 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: not catching cancer, you're not catching heart disease, you're not 379 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: catching liver disease. You actually have people dying because they 380 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: can't get any attention to the normal, everyday problems of life. 381 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: Somebody will somebody write a book on Emperor Fauci and 382 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: the whole notion that somehow he became this imperial figure 383 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: who drifted around almost like a bad version of the 384 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: Wizard in one of the Disney movies. We did a 385 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: podcast with Fauci in February of last year where almost 386 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: everything he said turned out to be wrong. It's funny 387 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: because you say behind the curtain, but he's out front. 388 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the joker about Chuck Shrman, the most dangerous 389 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: lias in Washington is between Chuck's humor and a camera. 390 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's doubly true. For Anthony Fauci. There's not 391 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: a podcast or TV show that he won't go on. 392 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: And it does make you wonder when he has any 393 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: time to review any of the science that he loves 394 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: to talk about so much. Look, the media in the 395 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: United States very clearly, besides the fact that you're absolutely correct, 396 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, they wanted to hype. They fear is good 397 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: for ratings, Fear is good to keep people's attention. They 398 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: very very clearly saw that this was dangerous to Donald Trump, 399 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: that this was bad for Donald Trump. It was bad 400 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: for his chances of reelection. And I write this in Pandemia. 401 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has some strengths, He's willing to take chances, 402 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: but he's not an empathetic guy. And empathy was called 403 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: for early on in this and he couldn't do that, 404 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 1: and so the media saw that they could punish him 405 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: with COVID, and they did over and over and over again. 406 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: To go to your other point about that this was 407 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: sort of globally synchronized, that doesn't explain why what happened 408 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: in Germany. You know, why did Germany lockdown? Why did 409 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: South Korea lockdown? Why did the media go crazy in 410 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: those countries? And it does feel like there was a 411 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: lot of coordination and communication by health authorities by the media. 412 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: There's something called the Trusted News Initiative which has been 413 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: publicly disclosed, where legacy media and social media are getting 414 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: together to sort of try to control the COVID narrative 415 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: and keep skeptics like me from having a large voice. 416 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: Why the media lost its understanding that its role is 417 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: not to work hand in glove with government, but to 418 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: question government and to question public health authorities. I don't 419 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: know one more thing. You know, you mentioned the lockdowns 420 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: on how it's terrible they've been heart disease or cancer, 421 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: those things getting worse because of lockdown. I'll just point 422 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: out one more thing. Lockdowns worse than obesity, and obesity 423 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: is the number one public health crisis in the United States, 424 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: and we have gotten fatter and more out of shape 425 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: as a nation. The number one risk factor for COVID, 426 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: aside from advanced age, is more of obesity, and we've 427 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: made that worse. We've made horrible decisions, and the media 428 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: has not just not questioned them, the media has been 429 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: cheerleading every step of the way. Fauci's role is pretty 430 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: obvious with Have you spent much time looking at Bill Gates' 431 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: role in all this? You know I have not, And 432 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy, in his book, which is focused on Faucci, 433 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: also spends a lot of time with Gates. You know, 434 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: people want to call me a conspiracy theorist. I'm actually 435 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: the opposite of a conspiracy theorist. I tend to believe 436 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: in incompetence rather than conspiracy. Bill Gates doesn't want ninety 437 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: percent of people in the world to die, right. The 438 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: population theories make no sense. But I don't understand why 439 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: Bill Gates is so obsessed with getting the world COVID 440 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: vaccinated when it doesn't work that well. I don't understand 441 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: his obsession with various parts of public health that really 442 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: don't seem to work that well, but beyond that I 443 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: have not looked into him Endemia. The book is four 444 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,479 Speaker 1: hundred pages long. This is a case where I think 445 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: it could have been eight hundred pages. All there could 446 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: be a chapter on Bill Gates. Well, of course, that's 447 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: an excuse for the next book. There. You know, you 448 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: did the first four hundred, then you come back into 449 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: the second four hundred. Bill Fortune and I had a 450 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: lot of fun and wrote a series of alternative histories, 451 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: including a multi volume history of the Civil War built 452 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: around Lee winning at Gettysburg, and two volumes about the 453 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: Japanese deciding to stay at Pearl Harbor and maximize their 454 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: advantage right after the initial raid. If you were doing 455 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: an alternative history of the last two years, what we 456 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: could have done if we had been wise. We clearly 457 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: had lots of people who are very smart, they just 458 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: weren't wise. What do you think the rough outline of 459 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: the world that could have been would be? Honestly, and 460 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: this is sort of disappointed people when I say this, 461 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: because my belief really is that we shouldn't have done 462 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: very much, and we should have just acknowledged as a 463 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: real virus and the greatest risk to most people who again, 464 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: who are not extremely elderly or more believabies, the greatest 465 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: risk comes from these surges. It can cause us that 466 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: it seems at times to be highly communicable and we 467 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: don't even to this day understand why these surges wax 468 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: and wane as they do. But there do seem to 469 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: be times when lots of people get this all at once, 470 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: and that can put a real strain on the healthcare system. 471 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: You don't want your hospitals filled with COVID patients because 472 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: it means that other people who need care may not 473 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: get it. It also means that your nurses and doctors 474 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: are working really hard, you're going to burn some of 475 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: them out, and so you want to try to manage 476 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: surges when they happen, and that can mean very limited 477 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: efforts to encourage remote work, or maybe at a certain 478 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: point you close bars and restaurants. Those are places where 479 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: people are staying for a long period of time and 480 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: they're speaking loudly. Those can be transmission vectors, maybe put 481 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: the indoor basketball game off for a couple of weeks. 482 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: But you're really talking very targeting and inventions in that way. 483 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: Then secondly, you do what the santists did in terms 484 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: of trying to protect nursing homes. Certainly not sending infected 485 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: people back to nursing homes, trying to do rapid testing 486 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: at nursing homes, because there's a tremendous amount of death 487 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: that takes place in nursing homes and hospitals. But you 488 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: have to understand it's still going to spread in those places, unfortunately. 489 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: And then the third thing is I would have gone 490 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: the other way in terms of panic, I would have 491 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: been very reassuring to people. I would have said, look, 492 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: we're going to handle this. The number one thing you 493 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: should do is go about your life. If you're sick, 494 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: stay home, if you're coughing, stay home. If you have symptoms, 495 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: maybe wear a mask that can make sense everybody else, 496 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: go to work, go to school, live your life. Our 497 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: scientists are working on a vaccine which we're not going 498 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: to rush, which we're going to develop at the right speed. 499 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: We're gonna find therapeutics for you, meaning drug treatments. We're 500 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: gonna beat this thing. We don't let the flu destroy 501 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: our lives. We're not going to let this destroy our lives. 502 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: And by the way, just to go back to HIV, 503 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: HIV obviously is spread through sexual contact and blood it's 504 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: harder to spread. But HIV is also the most lethal 505 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: virus we have ever seen in human history, and I'm 506 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: not exaggerating. HIV untreated kills almost everyone, aside from a 507 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: few incredibly people who get it more deadly per contact 508 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: than Ebola. Yep, it's not even close. HIV kills like 509 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: ninety five to ninety nine percent people who get it. 510 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: Ebola's about fifty percent. We sort of forget because it 511 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: was forty years ago, but HIV was terrifying to people. 512 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: I met Fauci when he was working in the mid 513 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: eighties on HIV, which is part of why I always, 514 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: up until recently, had such deep respect for him. Despite 515 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: the massive risk that HIV poses. Back in them eighties 516 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: and nineties, before there were treatments, the public health establishment 517 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: said we need to treat people who have HIV with respects, 518 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: and we're not going to try to keep them quarantined. 519 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: And even closing bathhouses, which were places where HIV was 520 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: clearly being transmitted, wasn't a big public fight and happened 521 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: only slowly, and the media said stigmatizing people of HIV 522 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: is a huge mistake by the way. I agree with 523 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: all of that, but the same people, for some reason 524 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: this time around, went crazy about the coronavirus and tried 525 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: to frighten people, tried to frighten people who weren't at 526 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: high risk, and now that the vaccine is available, have 527 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: tried to stigmatize people who don't want the vaccine. They've 528 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: behaved exactly the opposite as they did in the eighties 529 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: and nineties. Obviously, the coronavirus is a respiratory virus. It 530 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: is much more easily spread than HIV, but it is 531 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of lethality. 532 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: So if I had been in charge by about mid 533 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: April of twenty twenty, once it became clear that even 534 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: in New York City that as bad as things were getting, 535 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: the hospital system was not going to collapse. I talked 536 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: about this in pandemia. Once it became clear that even 537 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: in New York City the system could function without that 538 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: much extra bed support, I would have said, look, we 539 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: can manage this, and we're going to manage this. And 540 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: the number one thing is don't panic. Let the doctors 541 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: and nurses do their jobs. We have a really good 542 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: medical system. Let them do their jobs, and we will 543 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: ultimately find treatments for this. You raised a really interesting 544 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: question which some doctoral students somewhere should take up, and 545 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: that would be to literally look in parallel and how 546 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: psychologically and culturally and societally we coped with HIV age 547 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: and how we have failed to productively in a positive 548 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: way cope with COVID, and what the differences were in 549 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: the system and the stimulus and the patterns. That'sn't absolutely 550 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: fascinating parallel. I'm old enough. I actually lived through that 551 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: whole cycle. I remember one point doing a PBS show 552 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: where we were talking about would you be bothered if 553 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: the waiter who had HIV was serving your table? And 554 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: of course the whole point was it wasn't transmitted by 555 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: somebody serving your table, so it wasn't a problem. But 556 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: people had started to be afraid, and there was a 557 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: huge effort to reassure them, partially I think out of 558 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: a desire not to be anti gay and not to 559 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: stigmatize homosexuality, and partially because the scientific facts were so 560 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,239 Speaker 1: clear that you weren't in danger if you sat on 561 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: the bus next to somebody who had HIV. You raise 562 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: a really fascinating parallel. There maybe a more useful parallel 563 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: than the Spanish flu in terms of looking at how 564 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: the power structure and the establishment of the news media 565 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: responded to two public health challenges. That's absolutely fascinating. Let 566 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: me encourage you to sort of schizophrenically continue both your 567 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: work in this zone, because I think you're learning things 568 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: and beginning to put things together that almost nobody else has, 569 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: and at the same time to go back and write 570 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: some more novels. I want to see both versions and 571 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: be able to do podcast with you. She's got any 572 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: idea how I can do that, Please let me know 573 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: what I mean. I'd love to have you come back 574 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,479 Speaker 1: sometime and just go through your novels and how you 575 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: wrote them and why and what you were doing, because 576 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: I find them to be extraordinarily fun and also very 577 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: very educational and thought provoking. I've got one question for you. 578 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: You said a couple of times that you were a 579 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: fan of Fouchers, you had them on your podcast. When 580 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: did the start to fall from your eyes and when 581 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: did they fall completely? Two things. One is I went 582 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: back and found a twenty twelve article Fauchi had written 583 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: about precisely the dangers of this kind of experimentation, and 584 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: that scientists were inadequate to have the discussion about putting 585 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: the public at risk, and it had to be a 586 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: public discussion. You read that article and it condemns everything 587 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: he did in funding Wuhan and accepting China's word about Wuhan. 588 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: And Claire Christensen and I had written a book two 589 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: years ago on Trump versus China, and any reasonable view 590 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: of Eussian pains China is that it is a totally 591 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: tutolitarian state with zero regard for honesty and totally untrustworthy. 592 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: And the idea that we were giving them money because 593 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: we trusted them was a sign of insanity on our part. 594 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: And then second I watched him gradually become Fauchi, I 595 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: mean with capital letters at Talisi for a small crown 596 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: on the top of it. And you can't be a 597 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: good scientist and be a self promoting person. I mean, 598 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: good scientists are always humbled by the degree to which 599 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: they know that their current knowledge is inadequate and will change. 600 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: There are no facts in science that are unchangeable. That's 601 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: the very nature of science. And I actually was going 602 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: to mentioned earlier. I think part of what we've seen 603 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: is a little bit like the recycles in the Middle Ages, 604 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: where you would suddenly have waves of panic, particularly the flagellanti, 605 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: who would go from city to city beating themselves to 606 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: try to drive out the demons which had made them 607 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: unworthy of God's love. And you sort of have a 608 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: worldwide elite. I mean, Davos someday may be studied as 609 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: a central infection system of greater damage than Wuhan, because 610 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: Davos has given the entire world elite of rich people 611 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: and powerful people this mythic belief that they live on 612 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: a separate island from the rest of us. But is 613 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: it mythical? They do seem to live on a separate 614 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: from the rest of us. Well, to the degree that 615 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: they do, it's likely to be an island which will 616 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: presently be invaded by the other nine billion people who 617 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: will throw them out. You look at Austria going through 618 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: to Tolitary and shutdown. You look at Australia talking about 619 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: building concentration camps. I mean, the elites can only punish 620 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: the average person so long before they begin to generate 621 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: a resistance and a countervailing level of energy that becomes 622 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: horrendous This is dangerous stuff, and I don't think that 623 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: they realize that people like Bill Gates may shrink radically 624 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: in public esteem by the time this is over. I hope, so, 625 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: I hope so. I mean, it certainly has shown that 626 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: the emperors, they may not be naked, but their togas 627 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: are thin at best. Well, what's really bad is they 628 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: steal your clothing and then demand that you wash. There 629 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: you go, there you go. Listen. Thank you, Alex. This 630 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: has been more than great. I love having a chance 631 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: to chat with you, and I'm a great admirer of 632 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: your work, and I think you're doing something very important 633 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: in providing people new ideas, new thoughts, and new pathways 634 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: to reevaluate what we've been doing at a moment when 635 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: we desperately need it. So thank you for taking the 636 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: time to be with us. I appreciate and I hope 637 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: if you do read Pandemia Recovery, let me know what 638 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: you think, and you owe me a book review of 639 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: The Power Couple, that's for sure, and I will certainly 640 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: you do that and I will be back in touch. 641 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. To my guest Alex Barnson, you 642 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: can get a link to his new book Pandemia, How 643 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: Coronavirus Hysteria took over Our government rights hand lives on 644 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is 645 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 646 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our 647 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 648 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 649 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 650 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 651 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 652 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of news 653 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 1: World can sign up from my three free weekly columns 654 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 1: at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. 655 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: This is news World.