WEBVTT - Effort to Update Vaccines Not Keeping Up With Rapidly Changing Variants 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.000 It's Thursday, June two. I'm Oscar Emiras from the Daily 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.200 Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is Reopening America. 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.840 As we get through the current wave of COVID infections, 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.440 it seems that the effort to update vaccines can't keep 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.160 up with the changes in the fires itself. While still 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.919 dealing with the armicron variant, we're seeing sub variants that 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.959 appear to be more resistant to anybody's any vide protection 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.960 from previous infection. Caitlyn Owens, healthcare reporter at Axios, joins 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:28.800 us for What to Know. Thanks for joining us, Caitlin, 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.800 thanks for having me. Well, let's get a little check 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.600 in with what's going on with the pandemic right now. 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.199 We're obviously going through another surge of cases, although this 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:39.919 one's a little more difficult to pin down. A lot 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.840 of people are testing at home and are reporting officially 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.120 but just anecdotally. I feel like this was the wave 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.160 that caught up with me and all the other people 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.360 that I know that had kind of outlasted the rest 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.800 of the pandemic. So we know that a lot more 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.880 people have been infected with it more recently. Thankfully, still 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.960 some of the hospital numbers and debt counts haven't ticked 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.720 up as much, so definitely is still a different phase 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.640 of the pandemic. But you know, we talk about vaccines again, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.200 and right now what we're seeing is specifically with these 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.960 new variants that are coming out, they're just out running 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.000 the vaccines, the tweaks to vaccines that we're trying to make, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.760 and there's a lot of questions on what will be 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.160 approved next with these. So, Caitlyn, what are we seeing? 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.720 So let's start by kind of the biggest pictures. Something 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.920 you just pointed out. There's still a very serious decoupling 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.959 between cases in hospitalizations and deaths, which is a really 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.600 good thing. You know, it's probably because of the combination 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.880 of how many people have already had COVID the vaccines obviously, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:37.840 and how many people have been boosted, including with a 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.720 second booster, and then just the lower severity of the 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.400 omicron variant itself. So that's the good news. The bad 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.279 news is that the omicron variant. You know, it's funny 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.480 because we've called all these variants different names up until now, 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.600 where we have alpha data delta, then we have omicon 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.400 and omicron. Is it is evolving to where there's different 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.800 versions of omicron, and what we're seeing now there's the 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.080 latest ones and they originated in South Africa. They're circulating 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.240 around the world. Experts are starting to say that they'll 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.720 probably become dominant in the United States in a few months. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.600 They are different than the original version, and one of 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.120 the main differences is that they are significantly better at 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.680 escaping in the protection. So what does this mean If 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.520 we're targeting vaccines to the original version of omicron, which 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.880 seems likely at this point, the virus might have significantly 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.120 evolved by then. And I think, you know, when you 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.600 talk to experts, there's no real reason I think that 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.560 would mean anything for severe disease, as even the original 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.640 vaccines are still working really well against severe disease with 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.680 a macron. But I think when it goes to show 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.160 you is if we really need to retold these vaccines quickly, 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.640 I mean, that's a challenge. Yeah, And that was one 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.920 of the things that we've always been told right about 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.160 the m R and A vaccines, that they can be 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.680 tweaked very quickly, right, But then when it comes to 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.400 getting the real world data, that's the thing that still 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:53.920 takes a little bit of time. And that's the troublesome 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.520 thing right now, as these things are mutating very quickly, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.080 we're still caught in this lag with these vaccines, and 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.640 you know, we're seeing breakthrough infections things like that. You 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.760 know a lot of people have been vaccinated and boosting, 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.200 they're still getting sick. And that causes another effect. It 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.080 causes more fatigue in the pandemic. It causes a little 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.080 more distrust in the vaccine, even saying like why am 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.240 I even getting it because I'm still getting sick. And 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:18.919 so there's a lot a lot more things that start 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.280 developing as you know, the lag and some of these 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.160 vaccines does take place. And that's the hard part here, 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.400 right is we they're mixed data on whether an almicrone 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.240 specific vaccine or even an omicron combo vaccine will offer 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.160 better protection in the original one did against a macron. 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.840 But that's why you know, we have experts saying that 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.720 it's time for next generation vaccine um. A popular idea 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.800 is a nasal vaccine. There's taco pan coronavirus vaccines. None 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.160 of these things exist yet on the market. I think 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.120 the bottom line is what we most want vaccines to do, 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.720 which is to keep people alive and out of the 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.800 hospital these vaccines is still doing very well, but in 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.880 terms of reducing infections um and in the ideal world, 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.320 they'd be better at that. And that's part of the 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.360 goal was finding an omicron specific vaccine, is getting a 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.600 vaccine that will protect better gives infections. The more changes, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.160 the less likely that is to happen. And so where 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.720 are we right now? I know there's some clinical trials 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.920 on vaccines and dealing with the omicron variant. Are they 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.800 dealing with the variant proper or the sub variants right now? 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:24.560 Where are we in that process? So I believe, But 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:26.880 what's being tested? I think, first of all, there's all 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.719 kinds of trials going on. I think the front runner 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.239 what we can most expect. What if I had guess 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.640 what was most likely to get approve for the fall, 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.400 it would be what's called a bi valent vaccine, which 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.719 is which would target both the original which you know 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.600 targets that suite of variants including delta with omicrons, so 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:47.640 you know fight would target both variants at the same time. Again, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.400 but that would be most likely targeted towards the original armicron. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.880 So we'll get some more answers to summer, the FDA 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.000 is going to consider it to make sure we're ready 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.000 going into the fall. Yeah, And then to the point 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.159 of the whole thing, right, as things keep changing, what 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.240 if we get a worse variant? Hopefully obviously nobody wants 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.599 that to happen, But then how quickly can we turn 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.480 around a vaccine targets that thing? And as you mentioned 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.160 at the end of your article, then there's gonna be 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.679 big regulatory decisions that have to be made to speed 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.160 those things up, right right, you know, And I think 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:16.680 it is important in the context of this and the 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.440 grand scheme of things. The implications of a mismatch of 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.159 an omicron vaccine with a current omicron those are relatively minor, 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.160 as I knowed in the article, But say there is 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.640 a drastically different vaccine, then we need something very different quickly. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.719 I mean, as you said, the problem here is collecting data, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.160 So that creates kind of a tension between well, how 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.120 much data do we want to collect to approve this 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.159 next version or authorize this next version versus how you know, 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.440 should we just go ahead and use for example, like 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.400 lab based studies that look at neutralizing in the bodies 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.040 and say yes, this is good enough for making the 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.960 switch now, and so you know, hopefully will never come 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.120 to that point that that is something to be aware of. 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.240 And I think something that this current situation is, you know, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.160 kind of highlighting the reality of Yeah, well, I mean, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.080 obviously we're still very much in the thick of the 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.200 pandemic as this latest wave has shown, although you know, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.240 things are different, so we'll keep an eye out and 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.839 just kind of we're still going through it basically and 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.159 see how all of this change are. Yeah, Kaitlyn Owens, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.520 healthcare reporter at Axios, Thank you very much for joining us. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.760 Thank you for having me. I'm Oscar Ramirez and this 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.719 has been reopening America. Don't forget effort today's big news stories. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.599 You can check me out in the Daily Dive podcast 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.680 every mondy Friday. So follow us an I Heeart Radio 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.560 or wherever you get your podcasts.