Speaker 1: It's Thursday, June two. I'm Oscar Emiras from the Daily
Speaker 1: Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is Reopening America.
Speaker 1: As we get through the current wave of COVID infections,
Speaker 1: it seems that the effort to update vaccines can't keep
Speaker 1: up with the changes in the fires itself. While still
Speaker 1: dealing with the armicron variant, we're seeing sub variants that
Speaker 1: appear to be more resistant to anybody's any vide protection
Speaker 1: from previous infection. Caitlyn Owens, healthcare reporter at Axios, joins
Speaker 1: us for What to Know. Thanks for joining us, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Well, let's get a little check
Speaker 1: in with what's going on with the pandemic right now.
Speaker 1: We're obviously going through another surge of cases, although this
Speaker 1: one's a little more difficult to pin down. A lot
Speaker 1: of people are testing at home and are reporting officially
Speaker 1: but just anecdotally. I feel like this was the wave
Speaker 1: that caught up with me and all the other people
Speaker 1: that I know that had kind of outlasted the rest
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. So we know that a lot more
Speaker 1: people have been infected with it more recently. Thankfully, still
Speaker 1: some of the hospital numbers and debt counts haven't ticked
Speaker 1: up as much, so definitely is still a different phase
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. But you know, we talk about vaccines again,
Speaker 1: and right now what we're seeing is specifically with these
Speaker 1: new variants that are coming out, they're just out running
Speaker 1: the vaccines, the tweaks to vaccines that we're trying to make,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of questions on what will be
Speaker 1: approved next with these. So, Caitlyn, what are we seeing?
Speaker 1: So let's start by kind of the biggest pictures. Something
Speaker 1: you just pointed out. There's still a very serious decoupling
Speaker 1: between cases in hospitalizations and deaths, which is a really
Speaker 1: good thing. You know, it's probably because of the combination
Speaker 1: of how many people have already had COVID the vaccines obviously,
Speaker 1: and how many people have been boosted, including with a
Speaker 1: second booster, and then just the lower severity of the
Speaker 1: omicron variant itself. So that's the good news. The bad
Speaker 1: news is that the omicron variant. You know, it's funny
Speaker 1: because we've called all these variants different names up until now,
Speaker 1: where we have alpha data delta, then we have omicon
Speaker 1: and omicron. Is it is evolving to where there's different
Speaker 1: versions of omicron, and what we're seeing now there's the
Speaker 1: latest ones and they originated in South Africa. They're circulating
Speaker 1: around the world. Experts are starting to say that they'll
Speaker 1: probably become dominant in the United States in a few months.
Speaker 1: They are different than the original version, and one of
Speaker 1: the main differences is that they are significantly better at
Speaker 1: escaping in the protection. So what does this mean If
Speaker 1: we're targeting vaccines to the original version of omicron, which
Speaker 1: seems likely at this point, the virus might have significantly
Speaker 1: evolved by then. And I think, you know, when you
Speaker 1: talk to experts, there's no real reason I think that
Speaker 1: would mean anything for severe disease, as even the original
Speaker 1: vaccines are still working really well against severe disease with
Speaker 1: a macron. But I think when it goes to show
Speaker 1: you is if we really need to retold these vaccines quickly,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a challenge. Yeah, And that was one
Speaker 1: of the things that we've always been told right about
Speaker 1: the m R and A vaccines, that they can be
Speaker 1: tweaked very quickly, right, But then when it comes to
Speaker 1: getting the real world data, that's the thing that still
Speaker 1: takes a little bit of time. And that's the troublesome
Speaker 1: thing right now, as these things are mutating very quickly,
Speaker 1: we're still caught in this lag with these vaccines, and
Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing breakthrough infections things like that. You
Speaker 1: know a lot of people have been vaccinated and boosting,
Speaker 1: they're still getting sick. And that causes another effect. It
Speaker 1: causes more fatigue in the pandemic. It causes a little
Speaker 1: more distrust in the vaccine, even saying like why am
Speaker 1: I even getting it because I'm still getting sick. And
Speaker 1: so there's a lot a lot more things that start
Speaker 1: developing as you know, the lag and some of these
Speaker 1: vaccines does take place. And that's the hard part here,
Speaker 1: right is we they're mixed data on whether an almicrone
Speaker 1: specific vaccine or even an omicron combo vaccine will offer
Speaker 1: better protection in the original one did against a macron.
Speaker 1: But that's why you know, we have experts saying that
Speaker 1: it's time for next generation vaccine um. A popular idea
Speaker 1: is a nasal vaccine. There's taco pan coronavirus vaccines. None
Speaker 1: of these things exist yet on the market. I think
Speaker 1: the bottom line is what we most want vaccines to do,
Speaker 1: which is to keep people alive and out of the
Speaker 1: hospital these vaccines is still doing very well, but in
Speaker 1: terms of reducing infections um and in the ideal world,
Speaker 1: they'd be better at that. And that's part of the
Speaker 1: goal was finding an omicron specific vaccine, is getting a
Speaker 1: vaccine that will protect better gives infections. The more changes,
Speaker 1: the less likely that is to happen. And so where
Speaker 1: are we right now? I know there's some clinical trials
Speaker 1: on vaccines and dealing with the omicron variant. Are they
Speaker 1: dealing with the variant proper or the sub variants right now?
Speaker 1: Where are we in that process? So I believe, But
Speaker 1: what's being tested? I think, first of all, there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of trials going on. I think the front runner
Speaker 1: what we can most expect. What if I had guess
Speaker 1: what was most likely to get approve for the fall,
Speaker 1: it would be what's called a bi valent vaccine, which
Speaker 1: is which would target both the original which you know
Speaker 1: targets that suite of variants including delta with omicrons, so
Speaker 1: you know fight would target both variants at the same time. Again,
Speaker 1: but that would be most likely targeted towards the original armicron.
Speaker 1: So we'll get some more answers to summer, the FDA
Speaker 1: is going to consider it to make sure we're ready
Speaker 1: going into the fall. Yeah, And then to the point
Speaker 1: of the whole thing, right, as things keep changing, what
Speaker 1: if we get a worse variant? Hopefully obviously nobody wants
Speaker 1: that to happen, But then how quickly can we turn
Speaker 1: around a vaccine targets that thing? And as you mentioned
Speaker 1: at the end of your article, then there's gonna be
Speaker 1: big regulatory decisions that have to be made to speed
Speaker 1: those things up, right right, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: it is important in the context of this and the
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things. The implications of a mismatch of
Speaker 1: an omicron vaccine with a current omicron those are relatively minor,
Speaker 1: as I knowed in the article, But say there is
Speaker 1: a drastically different vaccine, then we need something very different quickly.
Speaker 1: I mean, as you said, the problem here is collecting data,
Speaker 1: So that creates kind of a tension between well, how
Speaker 1: much data do we want to collect to approve this
Speaker 1: next version or authorize this next version versus how you know,
Speaker 1: should we just go ahead and use for example, like
Speaker 1: lab based studies that look at neutralizing in the bodies
Speaker 1: and say yes, this is good enough for making the
Speaker 1: switch now, and so you know, hopefully will never come
Speaker 1: to that point that that is something to be aware of.
Speaker 1: And I think something that this current situation is, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of highlighting the reality of Yeah, well, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously we're still very much in the thick of the
Speaker 1: pandemic as this latest wave has shown, although you know,
Speaker 1: things are different, so we'll keep an eye out and
Speaker 1: just kind of we're still going through it basically and
Speaker 1: see how all of this change are. Yeah, Kaitlyn Owens,
Speaker 1: healthcare reporter at Axios, Thank you very much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm Oscar Ramirez and this
Speaker 1: has been reopening America. Don't forget effort today's big news stories.
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