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Speaker 1: Hi listeners.

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Speaker 2: Just a quick tour plug at the top of the

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Speaker 2: episode if you haven't heard. We are going on tour

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Speaker 2: in early February twenty twenty four, and for the most part,

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Speaker 2: Jamie and I are covering Barbie. So step outside your mojo, dojo,

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Speaker 2: Casa house and come see us live. First, we will

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Speaker 2: be in San Francisco for another show at SF Sketchfest.

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Speaker 2: This will be February first. Then we're doing two shows

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Speaker 2: in Sacramento on February second. We are doing Barbie plus

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Speaker 2: Wolf of Wall Street because we needed to double up

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Speaker 2: on Margot Robbie movies, so come to one or both

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Speaker 2: of those. Then we are heading to Texas. We are

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Speaker 2: doing a show in Dallas on February third, and then

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Speaker 2: heading to Austin for a show on February fifth, and

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Speaker 2: then we're coming back around to call and doing a

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Speaker 2: show in San Diego on February tenth. More details and

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Speaker 2: tickets are on our link tree. That's link tree slash

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast. Guess what, These tickets make a great holiday

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Speaker 2: gift for a loved one or for yourself, So grab

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Speaker 2: those tickets come see us live. We always do special

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Speaker 2: things at the live shows, so you don't want to

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Speaker 2: miss them. We're so excited for this and we will

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Speaker 2: see you there.

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Speaker 3: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 3: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 3: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 3: Vast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, will you write to me if

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Speaker 2: someone never separates.

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Speaker 1: Us, not if Danny Glover has anything to say about it.

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Speaker 1: And that's a great example of something that us past.

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Speaker 1: The Bechtel Test.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it started out strong, but then.

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Speaker 1: I fucked it up. It's okay, I fucked it up.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, better like next time. That's why I feel

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Speaker 1: every time you're like, well, this is in no way

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Speaker 1: reference to this movie. But like sometimes you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this movie's gonna be about women, and then it isn't,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, well, we'll get him next time time.

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Speaker 2: We'll try again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess the name of the movie was John

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Speaker 1: Tucker Must Die. But I didn't expect that they would

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Speaker 1: only talk about him. It was shocking. Well, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Lovetis.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Drante, and this is our show

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Speaker 2: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 2: the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point. The

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Test is a media metric created by co created

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Speaker 2: by really Allison Bechdel and Liz Wallace. It's known as

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Speaker 2: the Bechdel Wallace Test in some circles, and it first

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Speaker 2: appeared in Alison Bechtel's comic Decks to Watch Out for,

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Speaker 2: examining how women don't really ever talk to each other

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Speaker 2: in movies. And there are many versions of the test.

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Speaker 2: The one that we observe is this two characters of

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Speaker 2: a marginalized gender must have names, they must speak to

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Speaker 2: each other, and their conversation has to be about something

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Speaker 2: other than a man, and ideally it's a conversation with

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Speaker 2: substance and not just like throw away dialogue. And that's

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Speaker 2: the test.

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Speaker 1: There it is. And it was also written originally not

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Speaker 1: even just about women in general talking, but queer women talking, yes,

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Speaker 1: which is relevant to the discussion we're going to have today.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, although it should be more relevant, but

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll talk about that when we get there.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we have a much requested episode coming out

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Speaker 1: today that we've been sitting on for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: We're covering the nineteen eighty five adaptation of The Color Purple,

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Speaker 1: directed by Steven Spielberg, based on the novel by Alice Walker,

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Speaker 1: starring Whoopee Goldberg, Oprah Winfrey, Danny Glover, among many other

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Speaker 1: wonderful actors. We decided we were gonna sit on this

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Speaker 1: episode until the new adaptation came out, which is technically

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Speaker 1: and I don't know, we can get into the adaptation

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Speaker 1: wormhole that we're getting to, where it's like an adaptation

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Speaker 1: of a book, of a movie, of a Broadway musical

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Speaker 1: and now it's the movie. It's kind of like a

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Speaker 1: Hairspray kind of narrative. Weird really, but that movie was

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Speaker 1: announced five years ago, so we've been waiting for this

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Speaker 1: episode for a long time. As you're listening to it,

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Speaker 1: I believe that The Color Purple, the twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: musical version, comes out this week. So we have a

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Speaker 1: wonderful returning guest to discuss this film with us. Let's

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Speaker 1: get her in the mix.

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Speaker 2: We do. She's a comedian host of TV I say

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Speaker 2: and you know her from our episode on Secretary. It's

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Speaker 2: Ashley Ray. Hey, welcome back, thanks.

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Speaker 4: For having me back. I am really excited to do

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Speaker 4: this movie. It's a black classic, it's something you like

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Speaker 4: grow up watching.

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Speaker 1: So I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited. I feel not quite as ready just because

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Speaker 2: there is so much like context, like context Corner is enormous. Yes,

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Speaker 2: there's lots of production stuff and adaptation stuff, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I'm gonna.

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Speaker 1: Read the book. I'm pumped. I think between the three

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Speaker 1: of us, like, we can make this happen.

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Speaker 4: We're gonna yeah, we're gonna piece this thing together.

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Speaker 2: We will.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited. So, Ashley, what's your relationship with this

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Speaker 2: movie and with the book too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I saw the movie before the book because it

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Speaker 4: came out before I was born. Uh, And in my household,

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Speaker 4: I think like when you have a black mom, you

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Speaker 4: are just like fed this movie as soon as you're

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Speaker 4: able to understand what a screen is. I can't even

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Speaker 4: tell you the first time I watched The Color Purple.

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Speaker 4: I just remember like my mom and aunts like quoting

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Speaker 4: it constantly saying, you know, hap, oh, who is this woman?

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Speaker 4: And you know, repeating the all my life I had

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Speaker 4: to fight and it becomes like a family in joke

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Speaker 4: for every black family. And it wasn't probably until middle

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Speaker 4: school that I read the book. I was finally like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I should see what this is all about. We were

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Speaker 4: in school like talking about this sort of anger over

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Speaker 4: Steven Spielberg directing it in that backlash. So I finally

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Speaker 4: read it and I was like, oh, this is very different.

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Speaker 4: I understand now that I in the movie is is

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Speaker 4: a lot I think for a young person to watch.

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Speaker 4: It is still very graphic, even though it is Steven Spielberg,

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Speaker 4: But the book doesn't hold back. The book is just

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Speaker 4: a lot more graphic. And that's when I started to

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Speaker 4: really understand Alice Walker as a writer. And then I

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Speaker 4: became one of those people who I think anyone kind

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Speaker 4: of has those phases with this movie where you like,

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Speaker 4: love it, and then you learn more about it, and

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Speaker 4: then you're like, oh, I see the problems, and then

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Speaker 4: you come back around to wait a second. This is

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Speaker 4: a brilliant movie that features like some of the best

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Speaker 4: performances from black actors, that tells a story that is

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Speaker 4: real and needs to be told, and it's amazing, and

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Speaker 4: I love it again.

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Speaker 2: I love those cycles. Yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with it?

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Speaker 1: I had seen this movie, but so long ago that

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Speaker 1: I couldn't speak to specific plat points. I remember seeing

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Speaker 1: it at school. I think we watched it in maybe

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Speaker 1: history class. I'm not sure where we watch it, but

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Speaker 1: I remember watching this movie in school. I remember scenes

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Speaker 1: I remember. I mean, I certainly remember the performances. Stuck

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Speaker 1: with me hard because everyone in this movie is tremendously

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Speaker 1: famous and talented, and I didn't even realize until I

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Speaker 1: was looking into the context for this movie that most

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Speaker 1: of these actors were not like mainstream famous when this

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Speaker 1: movie came out. I mean, the casting story is really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Woopy Goldberg. I guess stand uffs are stage actors. Counts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: account we're valid, but like we're people too. But most

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Speaker 1: of these actors were successful on stage and hadn't made

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Speaker 1: the jump to on screen. And by the time I

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Speaker 1: saw it, you know, everyone was super famous, and I

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Speaker 1: remember enjoying the movie. I remember being very affected by it.

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Speaker 1: I wish I think that it is very telling. I

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Speaker 1: think we've talked about this on previous episodes, that I

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Speaker 1: did watch the movie in school. I was never encouraged

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Speaker 1: to read the book in school, and I wish I

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Speaker 1: had been. I'll be honest, I have not read the

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Speaker 1: full book. I read passages of it to prepare for

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Speaker 1: this episode, especially around the relationship between Celi and Shug,

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Speaker 1: which is minus the one scene which we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: is basically absent. And I read a lot of the

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Speaker 1: criticism around not just the choice of Steven Spielberg for

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Speaker 1: a director, but like his choices in the ways that

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Speaker 1: he Spielberg defies this story. Yeah, oh, I have so

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Speaker 1: much to say about I can't wait to hear it. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had not extensive experience, but i'd seen the movie before,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean, speaking to your point, Kitly, there's

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Speaker 1: like an infinite amount of analysis and you know, waves

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Speaker 1: of discourse over the course of the last you know,

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Speaker 1: forty plus years available on not just the movie but

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Speaker 1: also the book and also the Broadway adaptation and also

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Speaker 1: this new adaptation, and there's just so much to talk

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Speaker 1: about you. Yeah, Kitlyn, was your history.

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Speaker 2: Similarly fairly minimal. I had seen the movie once before

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Speaker 2: in my phase of like I'm a freshman in film

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Speaker 2: school and I need to have seen all those important

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Speaker 2: movies and so I watched it and that was now

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Speaker 2: like almost twenty years ago, so a lot of the

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Speaker 2: details were foggy.

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Speaker 1: We don't talk about it. I had I've never talked

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Speaker 1: about this, but I also went through I considered going

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Speaker 1: through that phase. And then I watched Doctor Strangelove. Oh

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Speaker 1: I think I watched a sing Goals three Stooges movie

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I think I get it. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I did a Godfather.

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Speaker 4: I did a Godfather and I was like, I see

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Speaker 4: yes film people.

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Speaker 1: Get that far. Yeah, I love Doctor Strange Love. And

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Speaker 1: then I was like, all right, that's basically movies, right,

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Speaker 1: and that was a good one. Let's quit while we

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Speaker 1: were a head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw Citizen Kane and that was enough for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: I really put myself through an intensive secondary film school

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Speaker 2: where I was like, good for you. This was back

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Speaker 2: in the day where I would have like the three

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Speaker 2: Netflix DVDs at a time, and I was just like

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Speaker 2: rotating through them rapidly. And then I was also going

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Speaker 2: to the library and getting movies on DVD from the library,

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Speaker 2: and I would estimate that I watched probably two movies

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Speaker 2: a day, two to three movies a day every day

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Speaker 2: for like an entire year.

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Speaker 1: Oh jeez, oh my god.

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Speaker 4: I did have this phase. I got really into film,

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Speaker 4: like senior year of high school. But I was obsessed

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Speaker 4: with one director, which I think is even nerdier, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, I have to watch every single ingmar

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Speaker 4: Bergmann film. I have everything about Ingmar Bergmann. And I

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Speaker 4: think at one point I had rented like Wild Strawberries,

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Speaker 4: the Seventh Seal, and The Virgin Spring all at once,

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Speaker 4: and then I would like truly go get them from

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Speaker 4: the library too.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And I put myself through that. I put myself through that.

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Speaker 4: I have seen Persona so many times, and that's not

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Speaker 4: good for anyone.

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Speaker 1: Not good. We have yet to cover a Bergman film here.

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Speaker 4: So oh my god, Persona would be a good one.

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Speaker 4: I'm pitching it now. Persona I one of the women

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Speaker 4: doesn't even have talk.

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Speaker 1: She can't talk. Oh, I'm very down for that. Someone

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Speaker 1: else recommended that to me recently too. And we're like

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Speaker 1: heading into a phase of this show where it's like

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Speaker 1: we have run out of the movies in certain eras,

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Speaker 1: so we must look back.

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Speaker 2: We've done every movie from nineteen ninety nine branch out.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's true, a lot of ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: a lot of O two who knows, potent years, but

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Speaker 1: we have to move on. Good years, good years. But

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Speaker 1: sorry that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, I watched the movie. I didn't remember much

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Speaker 2: about it, just because it was such a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: and so upon this rewatch, I was like, especially struck

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Speaker 2: by some tonal choices that were made, especially with the score,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, why is this the music that's playing

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Speaker 2: during this moment or this scene? And I was just like,

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Speaker 2: this is no disrespect to mister Spielberg and the movie itself,

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Speaker 2: but I was like, this is some weird like and

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Speaker 2: I know that this movie has gotten this criticism already,

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Speaker 2: but like this kind of like sugar coated, like fairy

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Speaker 2: tale esque version of this narrative in like, yeah, in

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Speaker 2: some of these like kind of stylistic and esthetic choices

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Speaker 2: that are made and just tonal choices, and I'm just like, hmm,

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Speaker 2: I was not quite expecting that or didn't totally remember that.

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Speaker 2: But we'll dive into it further.

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, prior to this, I knew the main

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Speaker 1: points about Alice Walker, which is that she wrote this

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Speaker 1: book because she wrote the Pulitzer, and I didn't know

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Speaker 1: much else about her, and she is also there's a

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Speaker 1: lot going on there as well, which we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: and I feel is important to note, as we would

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Speaker 1: with anybody, but even just like I was surprised first

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Speaker 1: of all, how much production information there is available about

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Speaker 1: this movie and also like how I don't mean this

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Speaker 1: like I don't know, like not a positive regat thing.

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Speaker 1: I just was surprised at how openly everyone was having

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Speaker 1: the discussion when the movie came out, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like we're so used to movies from the eighties having

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Speaker 1: it be like twenty years later. We started to think,

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Speaker 1: but it was like this conversation was, oh, it was

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 4: It happened immediately because people were so angry. I mean, essentially,

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Speaker 4: Alice Walker never really cared about making this into a movie.

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Speaker 4: She heard people wanted to do it. She was like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I can whip something up. Here's some different names, like

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Speaker 4: the color purple. She also suggested one that was the

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Speaker 4: sunset of fabric or something, but did that didn't work

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Speaker 4: and people were like, who are you thinking about as

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Speaker 4: a director. Obviously everyone was like, Spike Lee, it is

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Speaker 4: the eighties. Spike Lee, and a friend was like, you

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Speaker 4: heard of this Steven Spielberg. He's like, super cool. If

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Speaker 4: you really want people to see this movie, you probably

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Speaker 4: should go with see Steven Spielberg. She straight up and said,

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Speaker 4: I don't really know much about the guy, but he

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Speaker 4: seems like a big deal.

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Speaker 1: She has seen ET and she's like yeah, sure. She

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that was a good one.

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Speaker 4: That was a good one, you know, And at the time,

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Speaker 4: Spike Lee was seen as a very political choice. They

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Speaker 4: go with Steven Spielberg, and Spike Lee is pissed. He

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Speaker 4: was immediately pissed when this is announced. He starts working

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Speaker 4: with the n Double ACP before the film is even announced,

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Speaker 4: to start a campaign to discredit the film as coming

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Speaker 4: from a white director, being a whitewashed version of the story,

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Speaker 4: and specifically pointing out that it is the narrative is

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Speaker 4: being used by a white man to tear down black men,

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Speaker 4: that the film is being so unfair to mister and

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Speaker 4: the men in it because a white man is directing.

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Speaker 4: So they do this whole campaign. The Color Purple comes out.

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Speaker 4: It was nominated for an incredible amount of Academy Awards,

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Speaker 4: eleven I think, yeah, eleven doesn't win a single one

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Speaker 4: because of this Spike Lee campaign. It's such a it

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Speaker 4: was so like impactful, and everyone's talking it, like all

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Speaker 4: the black you know magazines essence, they were all writing

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Speaker 4: about this. There were all these debates about it before

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Speaker 4: it even came out. So I think that is truly

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Speaker 4: why there was so much discourse behind everything, and even

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Speaker 4: people in the midst of making it knew that they

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Speaker 4: were facing these judgments, so they tried to really document

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Speaker 4: the process of making it and how the black people

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Speaker 4: who were hired to be in this movie did have

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Speaker 4: a say. And I think that's the only reason that

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Speaker 4: any of that exists today.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: I also read that the Hollywood Beverly Hills chapter of

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Speaker 2: the NAACP issued a formal complaint against the Academy of

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Speaker 2: Motion Pick Arts and Scientists after the movie didn't win

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Speaker 2: any of the eleven Awards Academy Awards that it was

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Speaker 2: nominated for, saying that it was like all those snubs

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Speaker 2: were a blackout, meaning like this is the industry's attempt

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Speaker 2: to you know, suppress black projects, which.

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Speaker 1: Does happen all the time. And I had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with why this movie didn't win as much as

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Speaker 1: it should have.

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Speaker 4: It is a complicated where it is also at the

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Speaker 4: same time, people weren't you know, rushing to celebrate a

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Speaker 4: fully black cast movie at that time period, right, But

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Speaker 4: it's you also have to know the studios want Spielberg

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Speaker 4: to direct this because they knew that would give it

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Speaker 4: the chance to win something. They tied it to a

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Speaker 4: white director specifically to kind of get around that. So

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Speaker 4: I think it ends up hurting it like it being

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Speaker 4: both issues. Like, I think it ended up just kind

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Speaker 4: of stepping on its own feet by going, we got

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Speaker 4: to have a white guy if we're gonna get any

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Speaker 4: sort of attention, and then obviously black directors were like,

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Speaker 4: why do you have to do that? We're also going

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Speaker 4: to be unhappy. And then no one's happy, right, right

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Speaker 4: except for us the audience, because I mean, we got

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Speaker 4: a treat of a film.

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Speaker 1: So the premiere of the movie was protested by I

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Speaker 1: think that same chapter of the NAACP because of its

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Speaker 1: depiction of rape, which again is like a very big

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Speaker 1: valid thing to discuss. And then there's so many perspectives

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Speaker 1: on this movie. I also watched a clip from Whoopi

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Speaker 1: Goldberg two years ago in which she was discussing how

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Speaker 1: frustrating it was to be starring in this film and

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Speaker 1: have this beer breakout and feel like there were people

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Speaker 1: in her own community that were like trying to sabotage

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Speaker 1: this movie, and it's just like, yeah, that also makes

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Speaker 1: total sense. Yeah right.

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Speaker 4: She also had Alice Walker herself trying to just like

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Speaker 4: she just didn't really care for it. She was kind

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Speaker 4: of like it was fine, and then every few years

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Speaker 4: she'd be like, actually, guys, just not really a great movie,

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Speaker 4: really not happy with how they did it. And one

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Speaker 4: of her big issues was how they treated the character

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Speaker 4: of Mister in the book. He is more layered, he

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Speaker 4: has more dimensions. He is more like a grandfather figure

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Speaker 4: at times, not that you ever truly feel sympathy for him,

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Speaker 4: but there are more layers there, moments of kindness that's

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Speaker 4: totally gone in a Spielberg film because he needs the

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Speaker 4: big bad, the villain until he has like his moment

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Speaker 4: of redemption. So I can understand that. And obviously that

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Speaker 4: criticism fed into these complaints from black male groups who

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Speaker 4: are like, see, it's just made to make us look bad,

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Speaker 4: but you just can't win here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's unbelievably just a shreki in number of onion

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Speaker 1: layers going on. Yeah with this discussion.

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Speaker 4: Because it's like, at the same time, am I mad

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Speaker 4: that this is a Hollywood movie that did a twist

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Speaker 4: and made a man one dimensional?

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Speaker 1: Not really, it's not his story, right, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it seems like a really strong example of what

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Speaker 1: an impossible position black creatives are put in in this

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Speaker 1: time in particular. But also ill where like you're saying, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, let's get the prestige white director, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure helps with your budget, it helps with your marketing,

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Speaker 1: it helps with your chance at awards, and you know,

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Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg is this proven starmaking director, so it's like, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Then Alice Walker spoke to this pretty openly of she

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Speaker 1: was essentially convinced that, like, the best way to have

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Speaker 1: a successful movie with an all black cast is to

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Speaker 1: work from within the system, and she became amenable to that.

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Speaker 1: But then, like you're saying, Ashley that that's like there's

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of backlash that comes with that. There's

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Speaker 1: choices that feel dissonant and bizarre. Oh yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: the way that as Mister is presented in the movie,

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Speaker 1: combined with the weird last ten minutes, Like, was he

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Speaker 1: that bad? You're like, yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah bad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. The only good side is that he doesn't bother them,

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Speaker 4: Like he sets up this reunion and just gets kind

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Speaker 4: of like, I'm gonna I'm gonna just day over here,

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Speaker 4: enjoy what I did, not come over and tell you

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Speaker 4: I did it. And it's like, Okay, that's the one

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Speaker 4: redeeming thing, but I still wish you'd sliced your throat

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Speaker 4: like we could have. In the scene where she's teaching

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Speaker 4: her how to spell, Nettie is teaching Sealy how to spell,

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Speaker 4: I was like, teacher, how to spell poison.

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Speaker 1: Girl, teacher, how to spell poison?

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Speaker 4: Tea t try to sell shovel, Get her in the ground,

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Speaker 4: Get him in the ground, please.

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Speaker 1: I also at the end, I was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: care how close they still live to each other.

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Speaker 4: I don't like how stile like the other neighbors and

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Speaker 4: not a fan of that. Uh, just like this whole time,

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Speaker 4: she's just been living next to her weird ass stepdad

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Speaker 4: who assaulted her and okay.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I mean I kind of like he disappears

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Speaker 1: for so long.

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Speaker 4: Yeah you by the time she goes to the funeral,

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Speaker 4: you forget his relation to them.

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Speaker 1: You're like, who is this? Is this mystery? Truly, I

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Speaker 1: was like who is this man?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Because I mean in the aging makeup in this he's

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Speaker 1: all over the place. For sometimes you're like, how old

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Speaker 1: does everybody? Ever? One seems to be? There's there are

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Speaker 1: scenes in this movie, and again, I really enjoyed the movie.

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Speaker 1: It's a beautiful movie. There are seeds where there's everyone

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Speaker 1: at the table. You're like, I have no idea. I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. Everyone's a different age. Yeah, there are children.

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Speaker 2: And adults that I'm like, who are these people? Are

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Speaker 2: they grown up children of the who? And who is

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Speaker 2: this little kid? And I never knew who anyone was

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Speaker 2: unless they were like one of the core cast.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like this whole half second half of the movie,

416
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Speaker 4: Oprah's character Sophia looks older than Sealy and it's kind

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Speaker 4: of like whoopy. Goldberg was like, I just don't want

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Speaker 4: to do aging makeup, Like just not me. I'm not

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Speaker 4: doing the aging makeup. Everybody else can do it, big role, Like,

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Speaker 4: but she looks the same, like they show her when

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Speaker 4: she hits like eighteen nineteen. She looks the same for

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Speaker 4: the rest of the movie. Yeah, and everyone else has

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Speaker 4: like the at least like gray spray pain in their hair.

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Speaker 4: But you know, it's a choice. It's still again a

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Speaker 4: great movie.

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Speaker 1: I under Yeah, it's like I unders say that different

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Speaker 1: characters are living different like it makes sense that they

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Speaker 1: would look older. But yeah, in a few scenes, I

429
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Speaker 1: was like, ah, but there's so much to talk about

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Speaker 1: with this movie that we should probably just start talking

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Speaker 1: about what happens.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

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Speaker 2: for the recap.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'll just place a trigger warning here for

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Speaker 2: such things as rape, incest, child sexual abuse, domestic abuse.

437
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: A lot of heavy stuff happens in the story. Okay,

438
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: So we open. It's the early nineteen hundreds in rural Georgia.

439
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: We meet two sisters, Seely and Nettie, who have a

440
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: very close and loving relationship. We learn that their father

441
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: is sexually abusing Seely, who is the elder sister. She's

442
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: fourteen years old. Seely is pregnant. She gives birth to

443
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: a baby, who she names Olivia, but her father takes

444
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: the baby away immediately, which is the second time he

445
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: has done this. The sister's mother dies shortly thereafter, their

446
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: father remarries a young girl about Cely's age, and then

447
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 2: another man, Albert, also known as Mister played by Danny Glover,

448
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 2: approaches Seely and Nettie's father, wanting to marry Nettie, and

449
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 2: their father's like, you can't have Nettie, but you can

450
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 2: have Seely. So Albert takes Sely home. He wants her

451
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: to care for his three children and to cook and clean,

452
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 2: and he is incredibly ungrateful and controlling and abusive. One day,

453
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: Seely sees a woman carrying a baby through town and

454
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: she just has this kind of gut feeling that it's

455
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: her baby, Olivia, that her father took away from her.

456
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 2: And she talks to the woman she holds the baby,

457
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: who this woman says, oh, I nicknamed her Olivia. And

458
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: so it's like, hmm, that's the name that she gave

459
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: to her baby.

460
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:32,959
Speaker 1: That's nus brutal.

461
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tough, and it's all She comes with a

462
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: really dumb lie because obviously Celia is like, that's why

463
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 4: would you just randomly call your child Olivia when what.

464
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: That's not a nickname?

465
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: And she's like, well, look at her eyes. Only an

466
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 4: old person would have eyes like that. So I call

467
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 4: her Olivia and I'm like.

468
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's not that. That doesn't connect.

469
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: Don't see the logic there. What does she think Olivia is?

470
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: Does she think it's short for old Olivia?

471
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 1: I've lady eyes, Olivia, old lady eyes. That would be

472
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: I would really respect that if she was committing to

473
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: that opinion. Yeah, you know, Olivia, old lady eyes. It

474
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: makes sense to me anyways.

475
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: Bye, Okay. So then Nettie comes to stay with Cely

476
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 2: because their father was trying to sexually abuse Nettie as well,

477
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: so she ran away to be with Cely. Sely doesn't

478
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: want to stay in the situation she's in. You know,

479
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: this is a prison for her living there with mister.

480
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: So Nettie vows to go to school and to learn

481
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: to read and write so that she can teach Cely

482
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: so that they can run away together and be educated

483
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: and be able to like make it on their own right.

484
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: It's not explicitly said, but it's like once is given

485
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: to mister her education.

486
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: Oh stop stop, Yeah, yeah, she's not going to school.

487
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 4: She's truly there to deal with his horrible kids. They're

488
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 4: horrible kids, it's not rude to say they're horrible children.

489
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 4: As soon as she gets to the house, Harpo, the

490
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 4: oldest son, throws a rock at her head yeah, which

491
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 4: causes her to bleed, and in the book she like

492
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 4: has headaches throughout like her life and stuff from it.

493
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 4: But in the movie, they're just like, these kids suck.

494
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, I also like that, Celi.

495
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: That's like the first person that you hear her say

496
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: anything like truly profoundly negative about. She's like, also, this

497
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: kid sucks. I can't.

498
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: Kids are rotten.

499
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. She won't talk about anyone else.

500
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 4: She's very just timid, but when it comes to the kids,

501
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 4: she's like, no, they are the devil. I hate them.

502
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 4: Even Nettie's like, you gotta show them who's boss, and

503
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 4: she's just like, no, they suck.

504
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: There's no hope for these kids.

505
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: They're too horrible. Okay, So one day, Albert attempts to

506
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: rape Nettie when she's on her way to school, but

507
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: she is able to fight him off and get away,

508
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: and then this causes Albert to like kick Nettie out

509
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: of his house. Celi is devastated. She calls out after

510
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: Nettie to write to her, and Nettie says, nothing but

511
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 2: death could keep me from it. Yeah. Not long after that,

512
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: some mail arrives and Ceely's hoping she's getting a letter

513
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: from Nettie. Albert is also excited because he's expecting a

514
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: letter from someone named Sugar Avery, an old girlfriend of his.

515
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: Like shug shug, shug shug.

516
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're cheering and mister slash Albert tells Cely to

517
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: never open the mailbox. He like intercepts all the mail

518
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: that comes in. So if she was ever receiving mail

519
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: from Nettie, Seely has no way of knowing because he's

520
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: taking all the mail.

521
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, And he tells her he'sured out a way to

522
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 4: mess with the mailbox, so if she touches it, he'll

523
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: be able to tell it's just one of the other

524
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: ways he manipulates her into just staying captive on this farm.

525
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: Basically, yes, exactly. We cut to seven years later. It's

526
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: now nineteen sixteen. Seely is now Whoopi Goldberg and she's

527
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 2: still in this house with mister who is still a

528
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: piece of shit. He's getting ready to see Sugg Avery,

529
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: who's coming to town, and in all this time, it

530
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: seems like Nettie has never written to Seely, and she

531
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: worries that Nettie might have died because she says, nothing

532
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: but death could keep me from it. Mister's son, Harpo

533
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: played by Willard E. Pugh, is in love with a

534
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: girl named Sophia played by Oprah Winfrey. She is pregnant

535
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: and they're about to get married, but Mister approves of

536
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: Sophia because she is like headstrong, and he's like, I

537
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: don't rest her. So she's like, well, fuck you, then

538
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: I'll just be over here.

539
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 4: Basically calls her like is he slued, shames her and

540
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 4: is like, oh you even know that Harpo's the dead,

541
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: and Sophie basically like sees how he's treating Celi and

542
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: is like, I don't need to be a part of

543
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 4: this family. When you get it together, you come find.

544
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: Me, you come to me, right, And then we cut

545
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: to some time later when she and Harpo are getting

546
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: married and they have a baby together, and Sophia again

547
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: does not put up with anyone's bullshit, and Harpo is like, Cely,

548
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: what should I do about Sophia? She's too headstrong, her personality,

549
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: she has a personality, and I don't like it.

550
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: I don't like that.

551
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 4: How do I get her to be like you just

552
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 4: totally silent, giving me, you know, shaves, doing my laundry?

553
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: How do I do that? Yeah?

554
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: And silly because all she knows is abuse. She suggests

555
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: that Harpo beat Sophia, which he does. Sophia clearly fights back,

556
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: and then Sophia confronts See about it, being like, how

557
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: dare you suggest he hit me? Like? What the fuck?

558
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think in like, that's one of the most iconic.

559
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: The most iconic viline monologue maybe, and it's top five

560
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 4: in all movie history, delivered by Oprah.

561
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: Just Oprah to all my life. I had to fight.

562
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 4: I had to fight my daddy, my mother, my siblings,

563
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 4: and I'll be damned if I thought I was gonna

564
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 4: have to fight in my own house.

565
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: It's It's incredible.

566
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 4: I'm sure every at Black listener has heard their mother

567
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 4: deliver this.

568
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: It's yeah, we'll talk about this like later in the

569
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: episode two. But the continuity, I mean, and also like

570
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: Oprah's personal connection to this book. Oprah, I think it's

571
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: been involved in every single major adaptation of this book.

572
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: She's also a producer on the Broadway musical. I believe

573
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: she's also a top rank producer on the new movie.

574
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, she's a real Alice Walker stand she's super

575
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: Ino and she brings it. I mean, I truly believe

576
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: this is one of her best performances. Sophie's one of

577
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 4: my favorite characters in it.

578
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

579
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: Same, Yeah, her whole arc is absolutely beautiful, and it's

580
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 4: set up here. I think before this moment, you kind

581
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: of think she's, you know, just gonna be another adversary

582
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 4: to Celi. You don't really think they're gonna end up

583
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 4: being supportive of each other. But this moment of honesty

584
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 4: ends up bringing them closer together.

585
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, true. So there's this confrontation and this

586
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: cycle of abuse between Harpo and Sophia goes on for

587
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: a while until one day Sophia takes all of her

588
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: children and leaves Harpo. Some more time passes. One night,

589
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: Albert slash Mister comes home with Sugar Avery played by

590
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: Margaret Avery. This is the first time we're seeing her

591
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: on screen. She is sick, he's drunk. We're not really

592
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: sure exactly what all is going on with her, but

593
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: she's belligerent.

594
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: She just has early nineteen hundred's disease. She's just very flush,

595
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: she's sweaty and is just talking weird, and you're like, okay,

596
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 4: I get to send you.

597
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say it. She's in

598
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: she's definitely in the bath and we're like, yes.

599
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm like typhoid fever. She has something, but she's

600
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: very just like sweaty, and you're like, oh, yeah, she's ill.

601
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: She's ill for sure.

602
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: According to Mister's father, she has that nasty woman's disease

603
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: quote unquote, And you're like, we're like, been there. Yeah, honestly,

604
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: we all have had the nasty friend nasty woman's disease, went.

605
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: To a room and sat in a bathtub for a

606
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and then I was right, it's good

607
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: to go.

608
00:32:52,720 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, okay. So mister insists on making sugar, but

609
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: he has no idea what he's doing in the kitchen,

610
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: and Shug is like, what the fuck is this? This

611
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: is disgusting. She throws it against the wall and then

612
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: cely makes a delicious meal and Shug likes it. And

613
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: this is the beginning of their friendship. Yes, now it's

614
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: the summer of nineteen twenty two, Harpo and his friend

615
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: Swain played by Laurence Fishburne are building a juke joint.

616
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: They open it up, sug performs at it as like

617
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: a singer and dancer. One night, Cely, Albert, Harpo are

618
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: all there, and then Sophia shows up with her new boyfriend.

619
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: Harpo meanwhile is with a woman named Squeaky Wheaky. We

620
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: will find out her real name is Mary Agnes later on.

621
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 4: That's one of those very Spielberg moments of the film

622
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 4: where it's like this very serious thing and then there's

623
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: just a running joke where it's like, squeaky you name?

624
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: I thought your name was squeaky Squeaky Mary what? And

625
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 4: it's like do we need.

626
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: This me this beat, mister Spielberg. Can I have a word? Yeah?

627
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 4: And it's like also the actors playing that her voice

628
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 4: is I need to hear the notes Stephen gave her

629
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 4: because you can hear him going can you go higher?

630
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: Can you go squeakier? Can you be squeakier?

631
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: More squeak and you're just like her line delivery. In

632
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 4: this scene, she confronts Harpo, who has started dancing with

633
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 4: Sophia and she's like you, she left you, you're my

634
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 4: man now, and then she starts to oh boo hoo's

635
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 4: this woman And it's just such an annoying squeaky I

636
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 4: repeat it all the time anytime I'm shocked by anything,

637
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 4: I say.

638
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: Hapo, who's this woman?

639
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 4: So iconic? But at the same time, one of those

640
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: characters where I'm like, oh, Steven Spielberg really was just like,

641
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 4: I think we get some comedy in here.

642
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: Let's do it, Let's do it. It felt the same

643
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: sort of thing with Mister's father, where he's sort of

644
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: this like he is kind of like patriarchy the man character,

645
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: but he's also like, you're supposed to kind.

646
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: Of be like these kind of a goofball You're like,

647
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: especially in the final scene that he's in in the

648
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: like dinner scene where Whoopy Goldberg gives this amazing monologue

649
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 2: basically being like, mister, you're the worst person on earth

650
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: and I curse you and I'm gonna maybe try to

651
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 2: kill you, but then I won't. But he's like he's

652
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: being such a cartoon so many is in a different

653
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: movie in that scene, Yeah, he's totally and his signes

654
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: are just like, oh Mary, what what's her name or

655
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: any And he's just like throwing lines where he's like.

656
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: The chicken's all running the henhouse.

657
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 4: This place is crazy in here, and like maybe she

658
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 4: can sweep the kaboos of the train. Dude, this woman

659
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 4: has a knife to your son's throat. Get a little serious,

660
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 4: let's get see history action.

661
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: He's just like, Wow, what an interesting Wednesday.

662
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,479
Speaker 4: His final scene is so after this Celi's left and

663
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 4: he walks into his son's house and there's animals everywhere.

664
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 4: His son is just laying on the floor looking and

665
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 4: he's not like my son might be dead.

666
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: Oh no.

667
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: He just like pokes him with his and is like,

668
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 4: I guess you've been drinking, right, It's.

669
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: Like, oh no, Squeak. Yeah, I agree that, like the

670
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: performance she's giving feels sort of like another movie, and

671
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure was requested, which is frustrating. And also she

672
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: is far more present in the book than she is

673
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: in the movie, and clearly like the screenplay scales down

674
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: her presence in the story pretty considerably. But also like

675
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: they leave in in that same dinner scene that Squeak

676
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: is like, I want to leave with Sugar and Sealy

677
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: and everyone's like, oh, Okay, great, and then she doesn't.

678
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: Oh I thought she does go with them?

679
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: Is she in the car like she was?

680
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 4: She's in the car, there's no like she does go sing,

681
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 4: she does leave.

682
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 1: She does leave because then.

683
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 4: Harpo and Sophia get back together. Okay, so like it's

684
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 4: implied she goes and does have fame, but like doesn't

685
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 4: come back. But then it's all just kind of thrown

686
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 4: in their very last minute for her, right feel like

687
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 4: an afterthought Like, oh, I guess she wanted to do

688
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 4: that too, Okay, whatever, who cares if she goes or

689
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 4: doesn't come back.

690
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're like who is she again? Like why

691
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 2: don't we know more about her?

692
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like why were we supposed to care about her? Okay?

693
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

694
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: And the books she also has like a more prominent

695
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: role in like negotiating Sophia's prison sentence, Like here's other

696
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: things that she does that seem more active and like

697
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: really put her in the story as an important character

698
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: that it just felt like at some point in the

699
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: production they were like, well, we don't really have space

700
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: to include squeaks full story.

701
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 4: And I also think when you get Oprah Winfrey in

702
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 4: a role, you know you gotta kind of just focus

703
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 4: on one of Harpo's love stories.

704
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going with Squeaky. Okay, yeah, it's true. I

705
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: mean yeah, given the choice, I'm like, but why is

706
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: it a choice?

707
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 3: Yeah?

708
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: Yeah?

709
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: And then why does Sophia get back together with Harpo?

710
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: He's not a good partner anyway. Yeah. So we're in

711
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: this juke joint and Squeaky sees Harpo dancing with Sophia

712
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: and she gets jealous and she slaps Sophia and then

713
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: this big bar brawl breaks out. Afterward, Shug and Celia

714
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: are like just kind of hanging out one on one.

715
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: They're bonding. Shug has Steely try on her dress. She

716
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: encourages Cely to smile because Celi always hides her smile

717
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: because her father had told her that she had the

718
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: ugliest smile ever. And then Shug says that she's planning

719
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: to head out of town and Ceely doesn't want her

720
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: to leave, and she says that, you know, mister beats

721
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: me when you're not here because I'm not you. He

722
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: beats me for not being you. And then Steely and

723
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: Shug share a tender kiss.

724
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 4: Yeah on the limp.

725
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: And that's all. That's it. Steven Spielberg was like, and

726
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: that's enough of that, and yeah.

727
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 4: This is not Lilith fair stop it, ladies, is what

728
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 4: he said behind the camera, and they backed away. The

729
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 4: book is gay, Like the book is so so gay,

730
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 4: they're so gay, and the movie You're just like, what

731
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 4: is that? What is this kiss? What is is this?

732
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 4: Just like, do they think this is what black ladies

733
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 4: do to each other? What is this?

734
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: It's so barely there that I completely forgot that that

735
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: was a component of the movie until I rewatched it.

736
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: That's fine, I remember that scene very clearly from what

737
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: I saw in this going. But I was surprised watching back.

738
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: I was like, honestly, and I tell you five, I'm

739
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: surprised that much was done true, Yeah, which is saying nothing.

740
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of Again, I was like,

741
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: pleasantly surprised. I guess that at very very least. Spielberg

742
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: has come out and said that he regrets pulling back.

743
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 1: I mean, which is easy to say retrospect, but now.

744
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: That everybody loves gay people, I'm sure you would have

745
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 4: loved to make it gayer.

746
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's a fan of the people he's like, oh,

747
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: this is cool. Now I would have done that. I

748
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: should have done that, and.

749
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: I should have. I am sorry you could have should

750
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 2: have would a mister Steve.

751
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: Whoa god is a god got him?

752
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 4: But it's just I feel like, if you haven't read

753
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: the book, that scene probably just feels very out of place.

754
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 4: And I guess it does help to give you an

755
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 4: idea that Cely isn't like addressing Showke with anger when

756
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 4: she could. She could be jealous or upset that this

757
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 4: woman is her husband's mistress. And it just really shows

758
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 4: you how little she cares about mister, how much she

759
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 4: just like feels that she's forced to be in this

760
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 4: house and stuff. But you know what, it would be

761
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 4: great as a scene where they are gay.

762
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, which that is like one aspect of Cely's

763
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: character that I love so like it makes total sense

764
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: given her personal history. Or she is never going to

765
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: be turned against a woman, yeah, because she has no

766
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: She's been given absolutely sub zero reasons in her life

767
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: to trust men, So why would she allow You know,

768
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: even that attempt at manipulation will never ever work on

769
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: her and doesn't and doesn't work on really any of

770
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: the women in this story, they're like, nice, try, Yeah,

771
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna take Seli with us. I mean that happens

772
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: with Sugar number of times too, where Albert tries to

773
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: turn her, you know, tries to pit women against each

774
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: other in a way that sometimes in real life, more

775
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: often in popular movies, is always successful. Yeah, and it

776
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: doesn't fly here.

777
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, he thinks he can say like, oh, Nettie, you're

778
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: so much prettier, You're so much I love how you

779
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 4: wear that dress, Nattie, And instead, Nattie just goes to

780
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 4: Cely and is like, isn't he so stupid when he

781
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 4: says all that stuff, When he's.

782
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: Like saying, my teeth are pretty? What a loser?

783
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: What a disgusting monster? And even their father.

784
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 4: You know, he gets remarried and has this opportunity to

785
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 4: like leave everything to his new wife, and it seems

786
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 4: like she could just run away with this house and

787
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 4: all the land. But she's like I got the money,

788
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 4: like you guys have the have your stuff back, like

789
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 4: I need to turn against other women, and Cely's like,

790
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 4: let's shake girl.

791
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: I love this. Yeah.

792
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 4: It's just yeah, she's so good in that respect, and

793
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 4: but you know, maybe it's because she's a little gay,

794
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 4: and maybe we should explore that, Stephen.

795
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe there's some more context there. Ever, think about that,

796
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 2: mister Steves. I'm just gonna call Steven Spielberg, mister Okay.

797
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: So Selly packs up her things, hoping to go with

798
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: Shug to Memphis and escape mister, but he catches Sely

799
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: and she can't escape. She remains trapped there. We see

800
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: a scene where Shug tries to connect with her father,

801
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: who she had mentioned she has a difficult, if not

802
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: estranged relationship with him. He is a pastor who is

803
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: very ashamed of her. He thinks that she's a sinner,

804
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: and her attempt to reconnect does not work.

805
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 4: She did have nasty woman's disease, she.

806
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: Well again, that's why he doesn't want anything to do

807
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: with her.

808
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

809
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: Then we meet this white woman named Miss Milly played

810
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: by Dana Ivy. She is the mayor's wife and she

811
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk about her because there's a lot

812
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: of stuff going on with Miss Milly. But she asks

813
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: Sophia to be her maid, and Sophia is like hell no,

814
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: and I quote and then the mayor slaps Sophia, so

815
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: she punches him and then all the white people around

816
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: gang up on her, and Sophia is then brutalized by

817
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: the police and then arrested and put in jail for

818
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: many years. We cut to nineteen thirty, Sofia is released

819
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 2: from jail and now has no choice but to work

820
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: for Miss Milly, being her maid. She is completely dejected

821
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: and broken, a shell of the person she once was.

822
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: She hasn't seen her children in eight years. There's a

823
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: scene where Seally helps her out at the market. It

824
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: seems like Sophia cannot read or can't read well, so

825
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: Seely discreetly helps her with a shopping list in what

826
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: I thought was a really wonderful moment. Sometime later, Sug

827
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: and her new husband come to visit Cely and Albert,

828
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: and while the men are talking, Sug goes to get

829
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: the mail.

830
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 4: And if you want to know what they're talking about,

831
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 4: it's how they both slept with Sug. That's the whole

832
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 4: conversation is that you had your way and I had

833
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 4: on my way, but we both had a let's have a.

834
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: Drink to having her And are they smashing raw eggs

835
00:44:59,600 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 2: on their.

836
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 4: Yes, it's it's Easter, so the kids and then they're

837
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: all painting Easter eggs and then they just get so

838
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 4: drunk they just start smashing the eggs on their heads

839
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 4: and just being like wept with the same lady.

840
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: Life is great. So actually I am going off of

841
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: synopsis versus, but it seems like to me in the

842
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: book that the movie pushes her getting remarried ahead in

843
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: the story, so that like she comes back with a husband,

844
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: Like I think that she has a husband towards the

845
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: end of the book and all of the queer subplot

846
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: is removed from the movie. Yeah, that Celi is devastated

847
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: that Shug has gotten remarried and that's like a huge thing.

848
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: But instead they cut the love story between Sugar and

849
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: Cely and add the husband way earlier for reasons I

850
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: earlier understand, and it.

851
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 4: Doesn't make sense, and Cely doesn't seem to really care

852
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 4: mine that should got married, and Mister more importantly is

853
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: like so great about it. He's like, I love this guy.

854
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: This is so cool.

855
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 4: I lost my mistress, but I've gained a friend, and

856
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 4: no real reason for why mister as we have seen

857
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 4: him up until this point within the movie would react

858
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 4: that way. But sure, sure, She's like, yeah, it just

859
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 4: kind of happens and they move on. That's the husband.

860
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 4: We don't also know anything about him, which.

861
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: Is like, you know, this is not a movie about men.

862
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was like another character that it was

863
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: like he changes kind of from scene to scene because

864
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: he's like best buds with mister, but then when he's

865
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: also like integral and taking Celia away, there's no acknowledgment

866
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: that they were ever.

867
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 4: Like, it's just confusing, and it's also, yeah, it's very

868
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 4: like why this guy, Like the most of it seems

869
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 4: like so much of shook stories about her freedom, wanting

870
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 4: to prove herself to her dad, and so why marry

871
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 4: this guy? And it does seem like she just gets

872
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 4: married to make her father happy. Maybe there's a whole

873
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 4: scene where she is standing on the road with her

874
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 4: ring with another very famous line from the movie, I

875
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 4: was married now, which is what my sister said when

876
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 4: she got married, and like my mom says it all

877
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 4: the time. Look, Paul, I was married now, I's married now.

878
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 4: And the dad doesn't care. He's like, you're still a

879
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 4: harlot and a whore and just keeps going.

880
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: So talk about someone who did not earn his amazing

881
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:19,959
Speaker 1: daughter back in his life.

882
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 4: No, no, but and it's just I wish we had

883
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 4: explored why Shug decides to give up her freedom for

884
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 4: this guy. But maybe it's just because he has a nice,

885
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 4: really cool yellow car good enough for me.

886
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, could be that. I was also confounded by that,

887
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: just like I was confounded by why Sophia gets back

888
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: together with Harpo.

889
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean. And also it's like that doesn't necessarily mean that,

890
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I think it's confusing because in a

891
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: Spielberg movie, everything seems like and all is as it

892
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: should be, and so yeah, undercurt I feel like, very

893
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: likely undercuts. I would guess that Alice Walker portrayed that

894
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: in a more nuanced way of like, yeah, I don't

895
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: love that they got back together, but it's not inconceivable

896
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: that it point into history they would. Yeah, fair, there's

897
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: something like that. But the Spielberg movies are not really,

898
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: at least at this time, not capable of that level

899
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: of new life.

900
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say Sophia's story definitely has more complexity

901
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 4: in the book and the movie. By the time, there's

902
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 4: a whole thing with Miss Millie where she like barely

903
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 4: ever gets to really see her family because Miss Milly's

904
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 4: so horrible. And finally when she is like having dinner

905
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 4: with the family and it's kind of clear she's like

906
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 4: back around more. It's because she has like dementia or something.

907
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 4: She just like rocks back and forth. She says, she's

908
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 4: like confused all the time, and it's clear like they

909
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: had no more use for her. So she finally like

910
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 4: can go home, and then she just like ran it,

911
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 4: like just becomes herself again. When Squeaky starts laughing at Harpo,

912
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 4: and Harpo says one of my favorite lines from the movie,

913
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 4: it's bad luck to laugh at a man. You're just

914
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: like it's bad luck for a woman to laugh at

915
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 4: a man, and Sophia just busts out laughing. She's like,

916
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 4: I've had enough bad luck to laugh at a man

917
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 4: the rest of my life.

918
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: Then and then she.

919
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: And then she literally says, Sophia's back. Sophia's back home,

920
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 4: Like ah, Sophia is back. And that's how Spielberg does it,

921
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 4: is like that one line magically makes her wake up again.

922
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 4: And in the book, it's more like she sees Ceely

923
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 4: have her freedom. She sees like this forgiveness that's able

924
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 4: to happen. She realizes, you know, Harpo is the product

925
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 4: of this long line of like horrible evil men, but

926
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 4: at the same time he is trying to change that,

927
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 4: and his character also has way more that happens with

928
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 4: like the juke joint and him like stepping up and

929
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 4: apologizing about like squeaky and stuff. So it makes sense,

930
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 4: but for Spielberg it's just but if they're holding each

931
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 4: other in a field, that's all you need.

932
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: That's all you need.

933
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: I thought that when Sophia was like I'm back, I'm back,

934
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 2: and she does seem to revert back to her kind

935
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: of old self for like, you know, very outspoken, heavily,

936
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: and so I thought that was gonna lead to her

937
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 2: being like, and I'm going with you, you too, shugs seally,

938
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: I'm hitching a ride and I'm getting the hell out

939
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 2: of here also, But instead she's like hmm, hey, Harpo,

940
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: and I'm like what, yeh, that doesn't make any sense.

941
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 4: She's like, I'm back and I'm ready to get back

942
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 4: to work at the juke joint. Let me pick up

943
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 4: a shift and.

944
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for that context, because that arc was very

945
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: confusing to me and I mean again, it's like I'm

946
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: not necessarily complaining that this movie doesn't give me like

947
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: more information about the men necessarily, but also I feel

948
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: like there's a at least in the movie it dropped

949
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: threads between examining. I mean, you're given like three generations

950
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: of men under the same roof in a way that

951
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: like it's implied that their behavior is connected and learned,

952
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: but like you don't really quite get into it. And honestly,

953
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: like at first it took me a while. I had

954
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: to keep reminding myself that Harpo was Albert's son because

955
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: they look the same age.

956
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, the whole second half of the movie they look

957
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 4: the same age. They just kind of like said, just

958
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 4: put the same aging makeup on everybody.

959
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: We'll figure it out.

960
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 4: Who even knows how old black people are anyway, is

961
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 4: what I think Steven Spielberg said behind the camera. I

962
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 4: would guess that he was just like, go for it, Like, yeah,

963
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 4: who knows, I don't know. Every black person could be

964
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 4: thirty years old. To me, who cares?

965
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, I've heard the expression black don't crack, so.

966
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, do your thing with the makeup. I

967
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 4: guess maybe, but at the end of the moon, Like,

968
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 4: I think the worst are Harpo, who suddenly looks like

969
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 4: he's the grandfather, Neddie, who looks the exact same she

970
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 4: did when she left. Meddie comes back in. He're like,

971
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 4: is she's still fifteen? Like, I know, she looks incredible.

972
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

973
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: Oh I felt bad for I was like, I mean,

974
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: Celia's certainly had a very difficult life, but like this

975
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: feels aggressive.

976
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's like she's just truly like a baby

977
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 4: face looks the same age as Celi's children.

978
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: I was like, what was their age gap at the beginning?

979
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 2: If she looks twenty two, Yeah, it's confusing.

980
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: I did appreciate There is a small role played by

981
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 1: formative childhood crush of mine, Carl Anderson is in this movie.

982
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: I love Carl Anderson so much.

983
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: What character does he play?

984
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: He plays Reverend Samuel like he plays the new adoptive

985
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: barely Oh oh yeah, yeah, he's barely okay, and if

986
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 1: for like zero seconds, but I was immediately like, oh,

987
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: because he played judas a JC Superstar and really changed

988
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: my life. And I had this like experience with as

989
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: a kid where I was like, I loved JC Superstar

990
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: and I loved him so much and he had like

991
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: he was just amazing. And then I found out that

992
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: it was like my first time understanding that not all

993
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: movies were made this year, because my mom was like, look,

994
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: it's Carl Anderson. I was like, why is he old?

995
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm furious. Yeah.

996
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 4: Also a bigger character in the book, like he ends

997
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 4: up uh oh, okay, marrying Nettie, which I guess is

998
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 4: kind of implied in the movie because there's like he's there,

999
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 4: he's there, so and you're like, I guess that's okay,

1000
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 4: Sure I can't.

1001
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not complaining about it. But as I

1002
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: am complaining about or intend to complain about, how much

1003
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: more you find out? This was like one of the

1004
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: sections of the book that I did read is Nettie's

1005
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: full story that came in through those letters, which is

1006
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: like really like, I mean changed it also like alternatively

1007
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: changed her glossed over as it's presented in the movie.

1008
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: But it's like a far more nuanced, like much longer story.

1009
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the book.

1010
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 4: In the book is it's like, oh, yes, this is

1011
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 4: a full narrative. It just like goes over the full

1012
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 4: course of Nettie's life. How she ends up in this situation.

1013
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 4: She ends up becoming when mister kicks her out, she

1014
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 4: ends up becoming like a maid to the pastor and

1015
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 4: his wife who took Sealy's children, and somehow Nettie just

1016
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 4: kind of knows. She's like, I feel like these are

1017
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 4: my niece and nephew. Like I feel it, I'm gonna

1018
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 4: join this family. They go do mission work in Africa.

1019
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,959
Speaker 4: She goes with them, and we see like the whole time,

1020
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 4: his wife is starting to suspect, like did you cheat

1021
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 4: on me with Neddie and have our kids. There's a

1022
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 4: whole arc there of like potential, like her not trusting her,

1023
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 4: and then like slowly building a friendship when she reveals

1024
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 4: like no, I'm not on I've known all I think

1025
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 4: all this time. She ends up like marrying the pastor Samuel.

1026
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 4: It's a whole deep thing. Her kids, well, I guess

1027
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 4: Celi's kids Adam, Marys. And there's an in depth thing

1028
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 4: into this woman he marries, who we see at the end.

1029
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: But in the books they do the facial scarring.

1030
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, they do the facial scarring with their wedding, and

1031
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 4: there's also a genital mutilation and it's supposed to just

1032
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 4: be for the bride, but Adam does it with her

1033
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 4: in order to like, you know, have solidarity. He's like,

1034
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 4: I will also do the facial scarring.

1035
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 1: In the movie.

1036
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 4: Obviously, Steven Spielberg was like, I cannot have a beautiful He's.

1037
00:54:58,719 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: Like, oh my goodness, no.

1038
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 4: So instead we're gonna have it be done to Cely's children,

1039
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 4: and instead of it being a marriage general mutilation thing,

1040
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 4: it's like a coming of age facial scarring ceremony that

1041
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 4: we like see played over drums while Celia is possibly

1042
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 4: gonna cut mister's throat while.

1043
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 1: She's shaming him now, and like they just change it.

1044
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 4: Completely, and it's kind of like why even keep it?

1045
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 4: Like why did we need this?

1046
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 2: Right?

1047
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: That editing choice too to like didn't work for me.

1048
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 4: This is one of the Spielberg moments where I'm like,

1049
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,479
Speaker 4: I think a black director would have been like, hey,

1050
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 4: it feels a bit here like we are suggesting this

1051
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 4: African tribe is savage evil for doing this, and we're

1052
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 4: presenting Celia in a moment where she may do a

1053
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 4: savage thing of killing someone and Shoog stops her at

1054
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 4: the last minute, Like we're kind of saying they're more,

1055
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 4: you know, less savage or more human or emotional than

1056
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 4: these people in Africa. But this is Spielberg, so he.

1057
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: Doesn't get it.

1058
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: He's just like, yeah, but the drums match up, right,

1059
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 4: Isn't that cool? And then and when Mister's like, when

1060
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,479
Speaker 4: she tells mister to put her head back, the kids

1061
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 4: put their bag head back so they can get cut.

1062
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 1: Is that cool? Cut?

1063
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 4: And it's just one of those things tonally where it's

1064
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 4: a little like, Stephen, why did you do Africa this way?

1065
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 4: What are you white?

1066
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: Truly? And then why when Adam and Olivia Seely's kids,

1067
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 2: who I think for the first part of their lives

1068
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 2: lived in the US. And then also, we're living in

1069
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: an English speaking home their entire life, Why do they

1070
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: not speak English?

1071
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: Why do they not speak English?

1072
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 4: Yes, this is and what I think it kind of

1073
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 4: says is Netty is a horrible teacher.

1074
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 1: She taught she.

1075
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 4: Taught Celia how to read and stuff, and then she

1076
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 4: never teaches her own niece and nephew how to speak English. Also,

1077
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 4: at one point, Seely says like, my kids are in

1078
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 4: Africa learning different languages, and I was like, they didn't

1079
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 4: pick up English?

1080
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: Though, like what.

1081
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 2: What was the even though they're parents and they're like

1082
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: Nanny would have been speaking English. But it's one of

1083
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 2: those other moments, yeah, where it's like Spielberg where you

1084
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 2: just like Africa, so let's you know, they got to

1085
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: say Swahili or something right, and it's like, that's not

1086
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: how that would work. And that's the whole part of

1087
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: the book is them navigating Africa as African Americans and

1088
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: the differences they face and how they're treated and some

1089
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: people treat them like they're British or some people treat

1090
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 2: you know, and he just you can tell he was

1091
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 2: like I can't handle this. He was like, don't don't no, no, no, no, no.

1092
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 4: No, no, thank you. I can't know. How about we

1093
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 4: just have their African village get pillage, they cut someone,

1094
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 4: We're done.

1095
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1096
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: Right. In the book, there's like a whole process of

1097
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: I mean again, I feel like it also has to

1098
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: do with like how missionary work is presented. We're in

1099
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: the Spielberg movie, it's like, well, it was going great

1100
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 1: and then something terrible happened, where in the book it's

1101
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: more subtle and Nettie becomes really discouraged with how missionary work,

1102
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: like how that has sort of manifested in Africa. She's

1103
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: over it, which of course is like not touched on. Yeah.

1104
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: And also there's more background about Neddie and Celia's paternity. Yes,

1105
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: that is not touched on, yo, And.

1106
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 4: It's a very important detail and part of the story

1107
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 4: because you spend most of the movie going, oh no,

1108
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 4: this poor girl victim of incest her kids by products

1109
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 4: of it. How horrible, but she still loves them and

1110
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 4: wants them back. And then in the movie it's just

1111
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,479
Speaker 4: like a blip where Celi's like, and then I found

1112
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 4: out actually Paul was my step pa. Kids are good, right,

1113
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 4: It's truly just like after the and so my kids

1114
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 4: aren't my siblings and my kids are just my kids.

1115
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: That's great.

1116
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: Anyway, moving on, zooms through it zoomster, and it's like

1117
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 4: this is a major thing. The person who she's at

1118
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 4: the funeral, this person who changed the course of her life.

1119
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 4: She finds out actually it's a whole story of like

1120
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 4: their birth father was a store owner who got lynched.

1121
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 4: He you know, was like respected in the black community

1122
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 4: and basically imply like a civil rights leader. He gets killed.

1123
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 4: The mother like loses her mind, and in that moment

1124
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 4: of just depression and issue she's going through, this guy

1125
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 4: swoops in and realizes, oh, I can get control of

1126
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 4: her house and her store and all this land because

1127
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 4: she's so out of it, Like I can just marry

1128
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 4: her and also get access to her young daughters. And

1129
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 4: he takes advantage. Which that's a compelling story. Steven Spielberg.

1130
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: Why gloss over them?

1131
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:33,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like erases that super super important plot point

1132
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: about their mother because it's like there is a lot

1133
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean in this at least does come through in

1134
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: the movie. Is like there's a huge connection. Like the

1135
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: emphasis is put on mothers and daughters over mothers and

1136
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: sons over father's and daughters. Like there's a strong I mean,

1137
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: even like with the emphasis of Seally is thinking of Olivia,

1138
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: talks about Olivia more then she talks about Adam, poor.

1139
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 4: Adam, which is like, okay, I mean you also knew

1140
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,959
Speaker 4: Adam longer, like you kept okay, you don't even cared?

1141
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,959
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, sure are you guys not cool? But yeah,

1142
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: Like the emphasis is put on mothers and daughters, so

1143
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: why not include more.

1144
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 4: About their mother because like the mother is Celi's like

1145
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 4: old enough to understand when her mom dies, Like they're

1146
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 4: teenagers by the time she dies, so it's a little

1147
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 4: like what was their relationship? Like it it's hinted at

1148
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 4: that she the mom is aware that the dad is

1149
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 4: assaulting her and was angry and they've like broken hearted,

1150
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 4: but he makes her feel like she's the reason your

1151
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 4: mom was broken hearted and died because you tempted me,

1152
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 4: evil child whatever sick stuff. But in reality, it's like

1153
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 4: she's never processed losing the actual father of her children.

1154
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 4: And it's like, wouldn't that have been something to see

1155
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 4: or have cely talk about with Nettie after they're at Mister's,

1156
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 4: like how do they miss their mom?

1157
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: What was their mom?

1158
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 4: And we never get that.

1159
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like an absent mother is so often

1160
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: like explained away by like, well, she passed before you

1161
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: remembered her, and it's like, no, she knows like high

1162
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: school aged.

1163
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's literally as a funeral, like pushing the funeral

1164
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 4: because she's like, I'm gonna get married and like two

1165
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 4: months like right.

1166
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, I was. I was disappointed that that was

1167
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: scaled back on and it also felt like, I mean,

1168
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: in the many ways that the movie sanitizes the events

1169
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: of the book. That felt like a pretty significant sanitizing,

1170
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: like erasing the fact that there fat there was a

1171
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: civil rights leader who was lynched by white people.

1172
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and instead it feels like Steven uses it as

1173
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 4: a way to go, ooh, you know what incest is icky,

1174
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 4: let's backtrek right.

1175
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: That feels like the point.

1176
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess what you're about to see a family

1177
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 4: reunion and you don't have to worry that it's gross

1178
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 4: with incest.

1179
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: We cleared that up. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's a very

1180
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: like movie style avoidance. Yeah, like unbeknownst to me. I

1181
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: mean like when I went back to read the passages,

1182
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, he like sidestepped five different issues

1183
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: by making that choice.

1184
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And just the choice to make it like a

1185
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 4: rush sentence read in a letter is so weird to me.

1186
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 4: And just even the choice to not get into Seely's

1187
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 4: ability to still love and want these children and to

1188
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 4: care about them and to want to hear about even

1189
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 4: knowing at that point like they're where she believes they

1190
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 4: come from. All of that is like an interesting aspect

1191
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 4: of Seely's character that I just he just didn't want

1192
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 4: to deal with and that's the part where I'm like,

1193
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: what do you think this was gonna be on the

1194
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 4: Disney Channel? Like make a real movie seriously?

1195
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well there's a little bit more of

1196
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 2: the recap lift then yeah.

1197
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a long movie.

1198
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:38,919
Speaker 1: It's a lot.

1199
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it really is. It is very long, and

1200
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 2: it's still left out so much. Yeah, almost like it

1201
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: should have been a mini series. Maybe I decay. Yeah, anyway, Okay,

1202
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: so we've come to the part where oh yeah, the

1203
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 2: two men, Mister and Shug's new husband are cracking eggs

1204
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 2: over their heads and goofing around. Sure, and while they're

1205
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: distracted with that, Shug goes to get the mail and

1206
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: she sees a letter to Steely from Nettie and Seely

1207
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: reads it, and the letter says that that Nettie has

1208
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 2: been writing to her all of these years, and so

1209
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 2: Cely realizes that Albert probably kept those letters from her.

1210
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: So Cely and Shug snoop around Albert's stuff and they

1211
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 2: find all the letters that Nettie had sent over the years,

1212
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 2: and she reads them all and she learns about how

1213
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 2: what we were talking about, Nettie had been living in

1214
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: Africa with Ceely's two children, because Seely's father sold the babies,

1215
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: Adam and Olivia to that woman who we saw at

1216
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 2: the beginning. Her name is Corene, and then Nettie found them.

1217
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 2: It kind of glosses over this detail. I don't think

1218
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 2: it even mentions it, like she became their maids, just

1219
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: like I found them, and then I joined them on

1220
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 2: this missionary trip to Africa. But guess what, we're all

1221
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 2: coming back to the US soon, or we're trying to

1222
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 2: or something. And then one day, when everyone has gathered

1223
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 2: for dinner, we've got Cely, Albert Shug, Shug's husband, Sophia Harpo,

1224
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 2: Albert's father, Squeaky is there, a bunch of kids, and

1225
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 2: I don't know whose kids those are. But Seally starts

1226
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 2: laying in to Albert, saying that she's leaving him. He's

1227
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 2: a terrible person, his kids are rotten. She's had enough,

1228
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: and she curses him, saying that his mistreatment of her

1229
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: will come back onto him, and then Sealy, Shug and

1230
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: Squeaky aka Mary Agnes leave. We cut to a couple

1231
01:04:54,920 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: years later. Sometime later, Albert slash Mister is living in squad.

1232
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 2: His life is in shambles. It seems like Seely's curse

1233
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 2: is like coming true.

1234
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: I thought that that was well done because it's like

1235
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 1: she didn't need to curse him. He was never fling.

1236
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 4: It was never gonna be okay. He can't even feed himself.

1237
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 4: But I do love there's like those Spielberg comedy moments.

1238
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 4: He goes to the mailbox which now has like gut

1239
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 4: bullet holes in it, and as he's getting the mail,

1240
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 4: like a screen on one of his windows falls, like

1241
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 4: his whole house is.

1242
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: Just falling apart.

1243
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 4: Literally, there's pigs and stuff and it's just it's great.

1244
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we get that scene that

1245
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 2: we were just talking about where Seely's father dies, but

1246
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 2: it turns out that he wasn't even her biological father.

1247
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: Yep boop. Yeah, they just zip through plot points he did.

1248
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 4: Don't worry, no insid no, it's all good.

1249
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 2: And from this Celly inherits her real father's house and store.

1250
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 2: So she opens up a clothing shop slash specifically a

1251
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 2: pants store. She's making pants.

1252
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 4: With one size fits all, pants that do seem to

1253
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 4: fit all.

1254
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 2: I was like a sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. Yeah,

1255
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 2: I wrote dud Celey founded the Sisterhood of the Traveling

1256
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 2: Pants purely she like Harbo, who is very small man,

1257
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 2: and Sophia, they truth like wear the same pants and

1258
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 2: they do fit.

1259
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: They look nice on the nice.

1260
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one day Cely and Sug are walking through

1261
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 2: a field with purple flowers, and Sug says something like,

1262
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 2: it pisses God off when you walk through a field

1263
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 2: and you see purple and you don't notice the color purple,

1264
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 2: because purple just wants to be loved the way that

1265
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 2: everybody wants to be loved. And we're like, oh, so

1266
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 2: that's where Okay, they said it.

1267
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: And that's the color purple.

1268
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: That's the name of the movie.

1269
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: They have that conversation. Are like, but where as straight friends,

1270
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 1: I would like to have this discussion with you in

1271
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 1: a field in.

1272
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 4: A very straight way. And I don't mean like those

1273
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 4: lavender lesbians. I just mean purple is nice, Okay.

1274
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: The straight color purple is the straightest colors for sure.

1275
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why the Purple Teletubby is famously the straight

1276
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 2: just one. Yeah, well you just pulled that out like effortlessly,

1277
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 2: had the Purple Teletubby it's in my mind.

1278
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 4: Well, so you think it when you think purple Barney.

1279
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 4: Also yes, yeah, also so straight, very straight.

1280
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 2: Okay. So the movie ends with a couple different scenes.

1281
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 2: One Shug finally reconnects with her father. One day at church,

1282
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 2: she comes like marching in, singing gospel.

1283
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 4: It's a choir battle. It's everything that happens in this movie.

1284
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 4: And then Steven Spielberg goes, you know what, be fun

1285
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 4: a choir battle, Like they are at the juke joint.

1286
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 4: She's singing for a performance and the church is also going,

1287
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 4: and the church people are mad that they can hear

1288
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 4: the juke joint music. So they're like sing a song

1289
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 4: in the choir and shook hearing it. Is like, you

1290
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 4: know what, let's bring it to their doorsteps. And so

1291
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 4: they started playing and singing and walk over and then

1292
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 4: the church is like, okay, you guys win, you win.

1293
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other soloist gracefully accepts. Yeah, she's truly like for.

1294
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 4: A moment, she like comes out of the cues and

1295
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 4: she's like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna go sing my

1296
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 4: heart out.

1297
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: And then she's like, you know what, never mind, never mind,

1298
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: never mind.

1299
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 4: It is implied at this point that Shug must be

1300
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 4: pretty famous because mister this whole time has been listening

1301
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 4: to her record and hearing her on the radio and

1302
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 4: just constantly playing her famous song Sister. So it's implied

1303
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 4: she like does blow up. So there's I guess some

1304
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 4: probably level of that choir girl being like, oh my goodness,

1305
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 4: the famous sug Avery's here. Maybe we don't know Steven

1306
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 4: didn't want to let us know.

1307
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: That part unclear. Yeah, I was like, is she charting?

1308
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: Can I have afmation?

1309
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 2: She's selling tickets like she on the Billboard top one hundred,

1310
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 2: How big is she that?

1311
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: Okay that she's on jukeboxes? But okay, yeah, it's you know,

1312
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 1: very Spielberg sentimental. But I really do let the scene

1313
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: where Seally doesn't know that Shug is about to sing

1314
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: a song that she wrote for her and oh it's

1315
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 1: so it's yeah, if only they had let them be gay,

1316
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: like that would be gay, truly let them be gay.

1317
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, I will say the church battle choir scene

1318
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 4: also again feels very Spielberg, just in terms of how

1319
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 4: much the church people inquire, people are smiling.

1320
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 1: There's this.

1321
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 4: To me, it felt there's just a minstrelly aspect to

1322
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 4: some scenes where I feel a white director being like

1323
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 4: smile Moore, smile more like I hear that note and

1324
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 4: I feel it because like, even when they're playing the piano,

1325
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 4: they're all just like smiling so big at Sugar and

1326
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 4: You're just like, do they even know.

1327
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: This and who she is? Like?

1328
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 4: Why are they also invested in this situation? Doesn't her

1329
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 4: dad hate her, probably never really talks about her, And

1330
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 4: suddenly they're all just like, oh, yay, and it's just yeah,

1331
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 4: it's so just yeah.

1332
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 2: They're just excited that number one superstar Sugay America suggavery

1333
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 2: has graced them.

1334
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,679
Speaker 4: Has graced them, and is just hugging their pastor very intimately.

1335
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: For some reason.

1336
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 2: They're like, Wow, our pastor knows a famous person. Yeah.

1337
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 2: I also, as someone who has well a complicated relationship

1338
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 2: with the concept of a father, I was like, why

1339
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 2: is she so obsessed with trying to like when his

1340
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 2: affection He seems like a not very good person, But

1341
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 2: maybe that's just a me thing.

1342
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: Well. It also feels like, because this movie is overtly

1343
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 1: critical of many things, religion is not really one of them,

1344
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:53,559
Speaker 1: which it seems like the book is more ready to

1345
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: engage with. My feeling and again, I don't know how

1346
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 1: Shug's relationship with their father's presented in the book necessarily,

1347
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: but it felt like he was this kind of amalgamation

1348
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 1: of like, if she can reconcile with her father, she

1349
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: can reconcile with religion and like quote unquote respectable society,

1350
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: or like it felt like he was also like a

1351
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 1: symbol of other stuff.

1352
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, in the book, it's a lot of like he

1353
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 4: hates her because he feels like God gave her this

1354
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 4: voice and she could use it in church for the Lord,

1355
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 4: but he, you know, she brings shame upon them in

1356
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,679
Speaker 4: the family. A lot of why she is even sleeping

1357
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 4: with mister like how she becomes a mistress and she's

1358
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 4: like her relationships with married men. They go more into

1359
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 4: that because it's sort of like her trying to get

1360
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 4: her father's attention and approval and love. So it's like

1361
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 4: this manifestation of daddy issues. So it again just makes

1362
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,719
Speaker 4: more sense because Alice Walker is a writer who knows.

1363
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: What she's doing.

1364
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, in the movie, I don't think you really

1365
01:11:55,520 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 4: get how not having her father has impacted Shug. You know,

1366
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 4: it feels good to I guess see them come back together.

1367
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 4: But again it's like, why did she care so much

1368
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 4: about getting married to impress him? Why did she care

1369
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 4: so much about like showing him right?

1370
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 2: If we knew more about it, I would have an

1371
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 2: easier time understanding her what is compelling her to seek

1372
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 2: out this love and affection from him, But we just

1373
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 2: don't know enough.

1374
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 1: So I'm just like, right, I mean, in the SPIELBERGI

1375
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: way that in the kind of eleventh hour of this movie,

1376
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: there are two tacitly implied redemption arcs for men who

1377
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: are abusive in different ways, where we I mean, I

1378
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: think we're led to believe. I don't think that we're

1379
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: led to believe that Sugar had been physically abused by

1380
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: her father, but like neglected and abandoned essentially emotionally. They

1381
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 1: have no relationship, and then he sort of like never

1382
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,560
Speaker 1: has to say sorry. He's just like, oh, today is

1383
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 1: the day I decide I decide to forgive you, even

1384
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 1: though you have done nothing wrong.

1385
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1386
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1387
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: And then with Albert, I mean, I think, like you're

1388
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, Ashley, it would make I can't really

1389
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: see a world where it's like Albert's redemption arc, you know,

1390
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 1: and it's not totally redemption. It's close enough. I don't

1391
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 1: know the way it's presented in the Spielberg movie. You're

1392
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: just like he should have to move to a different

1393
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:19,960
Speaker 1: city at least, Like why is he still should have.

1394
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 4: To lose his property or something? And yeah, it'll be

1395
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 4: I guess we're going to do this part in the

1396
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 4: synopsis because it's like the very end that they rush

1397
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 4: Mister's whole arc of like him just deciding, you know what,

1398
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 4: I have been cursed, let me fix this.

1399
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 2: And I almost didn't understand fully what was happening because

1400
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 2: we see him get a letter from like the federal government.

1401
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 4: Like it's the immigration and Naturalization and in the book

1402
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 4: this is explained that basically to come back to America,

1403
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 4: Nettie and her kids need like a sponsor, someone who's

1404
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 4: already in America. So they've been asking Celi and they're

1405
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 4: trying to petition and be like this is the only way,

1406
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 4: you know, we don't know anyone else back in the States,

1407
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 4: like we need you to do this, and there's like

1408
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 4: a fee that they have to pay, and obviously these

1409
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 4: letters are never getting to Cely. And then finally Mister's like,

1410
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 4: you know what, let me do it.

1411
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 2: I'll do it all, redeem myself by paying the fee.

1412
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 1: I'll pay the little fee.

1413
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. I figured it must have been

1414
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 2: something like that, but it's not.

1415
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, like why and why would like they need

1416
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 4: Celia or Mister to get involved in any way?

1417
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: Like what if they went over there?

1418
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 4: Couldn't they just be like we were born in America,

1419
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 4: we have passports and come back.

1420
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 2: But yes, yeah, in any case, So the movie ends

1421
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 2: with after mister had paid the fee, Nettie returning with

1422
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 2: Cely's children, Adam and Olivia, as well as Tashi, who

1423
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 2: I think is Adam's wife, and then there's just this

1424
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 2: beautiful tear reunion and then the movie ends. So that

1425
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 2: is the color purple.

1426
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 1: Wow.

1427
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 4: I mean we also get Mister looking at them and

1428
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 4: he walks his horse into the sunset. He wist, well,

1429
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:16,600
Speaker 4: I did a good thing and I'm not cursed anymore.

1430
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 1: And yeah, and then we know you have to move.

1431
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 4: You have to move, you gotta and we get the

1432
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 4: iconic Also another famous thing that me and my cousin

1433
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 4: used to you all the time, handshake me and you

1434
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 4: us never part.

1435
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: Me and you us have one heart, you know.

1436
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they're children again who found each other, and.

1437
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:43,799
Speaker 2: I feel like they're among the color purple. Yeah.

1438
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 1: When this happens, Oh yeah, it.

1439
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,759
Speaker 2: Makes you think, all right, let's take another quick break

1440
01:15:48,800 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 2: and we will come back to discuss, and we're back.

1441
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: I knew we were gonna have half a discussion in

1442
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 1: the middle of it. It's hard not to. It's hard,

1443
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 1: but I do. I'm glad that we I mean, maybe

1444
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: we should start with the erasure of the sug and

1445
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:18,879
Speaker 1: Cely relationship, because that seems like the biggest erasure.

1446
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, is that they have this beautiful relationship. In the books,

1447
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:26,640
Speaker 4: it is super gay. You understand the love they have

1448
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 4: for each other, and that beyond just being into each other,

1449
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 4: it is a safety that they find and each other

1450
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 4: as women, that they've both been so disappointed by men

1451
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 4: and hurt by men. And I think it really is

1452
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 4: a disservice to Ceely's character because in the movie, her

1453
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 4: ability to be romantic, to be sexual is just completely

1454
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 4: washed away. She's basically played as though she has the

1455
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 4: mentality of a child, like she never really like steps

1456
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,799
Speaker 4: into that adulthood of I'm gonna speak up for myself.

1457
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:58,680
Speaker 4: I know what I want I have feelings for this

1458
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 4: person instead, it kind of is suggested, and then she

1459
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 4: has this big monologue at the dinner table where she's like,

1460
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 4: I'm gonna speak up finally. But it's so much more

1461
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 4: beautiful when you see that in this relationship with Shoog,

1462
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 4: she's able to find her voice and stand up for

1463
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 4: herself and finally start to fight. So to remove it,

1464
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 4: it's just again one of those really disappointing acts arcs

1465
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 4: of it. I think again that's what made me kind

1466
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 4: of fall out of love with the movie when I

1467
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 4: realized what I could have had reading the book.

1468
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been a ton written about it. We'll link

1469
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: to a friend of this show, Princess Weeks, wrote a

1470
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 1: wonderful essay about it a couple of years ago, I

1471
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 1: think possibly when it was first announced that this new

1472
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 1: adaptation was going to come out. I wanted to share

1473
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: there's a quote that's been pretty widely circulated that we've

1474
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: referenced before, because I think it's very easy for directors

1475
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, I would have done this differently today. Sorry,

1476
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: but you know, to hand him the bare minimum. He

1477
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 1: didn't double down on the decision and say and I

1478
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 1: do it again today. But the quote that is widely circulated,

1479
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:08,760
Speaker 1: I think during every round of this necessary discourse about

1480
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 1: how this relationship is completely erased. So Spielberg says, quote,

1481
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 1: there were certain things in the lesbian relationship between sug

1482
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: Avery and Sely that were finally detailed in Alice's book

1483
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 1: that I didn't feel could get a PG. Thirteen rating,

1484
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 1: and I was shy about it. In that sense, perhaps

1485
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: I was the wrong director to acquit some of the

1486
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:29,680
Speaker 1: more sexually honest encounters between Sugar and Sealy because I

1487
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 1: did soften those. I basically took something that was extremely

1488
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 1: erotic and very intentional, and I reduced it to a

1489
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 1: simple kiss. I got a lot of criticism for that

1490
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:42,639
Speaker 1: ud quote. I wonder why, Stephen, I wonder why weird

1491
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 1: weird that that happened. And I was curious because I

1492
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 1: have not seen the musical, and I know that that

1493
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 1: is that adaptation of the so in the original musical,

1494
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 1: and I've heard I mean again, never trust a movie.

1495
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 1: So it's like it's it's hard. There has been a

1496
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: lot of talk, and I think at least press buzz

1497
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: that the new adaptation will actually rise to the occasion

1498
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 1: of the source material and include the queer relationship, which

1499
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 1: I'm interested in seeing how it's done because it seems

1500
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 1: like there was another round of criticism in how the

1501
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: original Broadway musical plays it down.

1502
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, it's the musicals not gay at all, and

1503
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:30,600
Speaker 4: it's a musical, so it would be gay. It's yeah,

1504
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 4: it's not. I saw when Michelle Williams was in it

1505
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 4: on Broadway, and I mean, I loved it. I love

1506
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:38,439
Speaker 4: the music, I do like the musical, but I mean,

1507
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 4: if Spielberg's goal was to make the movie Pg. Thirteen,

1508
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 4: they were like, we got to make sure this musical

1509
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 4: has like a g rating, Like people have to be

1510
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 4: able to bring their six year olds to enjoy the

1511
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:53,520
Speaker 4: bright colors. So it's definitely even more just like whitewashed

1512
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 4: and kind of like those details are missing. It's still

1513
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 4: really fun, though, But at the same time, I've always

1514
01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 4: kind of wondered, why this story, Why is this the

1515
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 4: story about black female struggle that is depicted so raw,

1516
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:08,679
Speaker 4: so honestly in the book. Why is this what you've

1517
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 4: decided should be turned into a PG. Thirteen general audience affair?

1518
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:15,320
Speaker 4: Like can we be honest about it? Like can't we

1519
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:18,719
Speaker 4: have our r rated narratives because that's what this is.

1520
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:23,280
Speaker 1: And it feels so telling, just like, and this discussion

1521
01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 1: has been had with a number of movies, but like,

1522
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 1: what can you get away with in a PG thirteen rating?

1523
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: And why is showing a lesbian relationship not okay when

1524
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:35,760
Speaker 1: we see I mean, I think that's like sort of

1525
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 1: my central issue with the way that this movie's adapted.

1526
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 1: There's a million ways to criticize it, but that like,

1527
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 1: on its face, this movie is very, very comfortable with

1528
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 1: showing the black women at its center being tremendously abused

1529
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: and are not comfortable or like shy and pull away

1530
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: and fade to black when it comes to showing these

1531
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 1: same characters experiencing actual joy and pleasure, Like the pleasure

1532
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: is erased or just hinted at, but the abuse you see,

1533
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, for the most part pretty clearly the thing

1534
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,479
Speaker 1: that bugged me the most. And I was like, oh,

1535
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 1: the scene where Sophia punches the white guy in the face.

1536
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: They don't show it. They have a car pass like

1537
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: it's like when SpongeBob is swearing and it's like the

1538
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:24,320
Speaker 1: dolphins sound yeah they do that. I was just like,

1539
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: they're comfortable showing black women the abuse the entire movie.

1540
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: But they're like, but we don't want to show a

1541
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:30,760
Speaker 1: white man getting punched in the face.

1542
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 4: Oh, they do cut back when when Sophia is on

1543
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 4: the ground with her skirt up, you see, and then

1544
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 4: they're like, you should see this, you should see this

1545
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 4: woman in the must I'm real.

1546
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 2: They show the sheriff like pistol whipping her, yeah, in

1547
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 2: the head, and then you show the yeah. She collapses

1548
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 2: to the ground, her skirt flies up, exposing her underwear,

1549
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 2: Like why is that okay to show? But not?

1550
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it just feels like an admission of what

1551
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:02,719
Speaker 1: the creative team was comfortable showing and what they were like, well,

1552
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 1: we cut it short of showing a relationship between two

1553
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 1: black women that's sexual and punching a white guy in

1554
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 1: the face any sort of abuse or humiliation. Pg. Thirteen

1555
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 1: No problem, which is just as much an issue with

1556
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 1: the ratings system as it is with the creative choices,

1557
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: because theoretically, in a just world, there would be some

1558
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 1: fucking pushback for that.

1559
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 2: There's a documentary. I've referenced this on the show before,

1560
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 2: but a documentary called This film is not yet rated,

1561
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:35,799
Speaker 2: and it explores largely how sex scenes or like romantic

1562
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 2: scenes between or among queer people, even though they will

1563
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:46,480
Speaker 2: be framed and choreographed like basically identically to like hetero

1564
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:50,960
Speaker 2: sex scenes, the movies with queer sex depicted in them

1565
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:56,000
Speaker 2: will be given like NC seventeen ratings, where again basically

1566
01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 2: identical like choreography and like body place and like the

1567
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,160
Speaker 2: same level of nudity. It's not as though like you're

1568
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 2: seeing like hardcore porn like dicks getting sucked or anything

1569
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 2: like that.

1570
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:13,160
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it also like is inherently connected

1571
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 1: to just like seeing women experiencing pleasure in movies at

1572
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,360
Speaker 1: all is so deem. I always think about the like.

1573
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 2: The but I'm a Cheerleader episode. I think we talked

1574
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 2: about this a lot mm hmm, because that movie there's

1575
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 2: like sex scenes and that had to be largely cut

1576
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,640
Speaker 2: to be able to get an R rating or I

1577
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 2: forget which, but there was scenes that like the MPAA

1578
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 2: was like, this is too scandalous, so we're gonna give

1579
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 2: you like either an NC seventeen or an R rating

1580
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 2: basically make it inaccessible to people.

1581
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 1: But even within like heterodynamics too, where it's like a

1582
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,720
Speaker 1: blow job can be in a pg. Thirteen movie no problem.

1583
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 1: But if someone's going down on a maybe that's we

1584
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:01,639
Speaker 1: gotta keep that. We can't let them know. We coun't

1585
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:02,679
Speaker 1: lock it up.

1586
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:05,920
Speaker 4: Only release it in France. Don't even bring it to

1587
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 4: my shores.

1588
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous.

1589
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 4: And yeah, just again in this I even the kiss

1590
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 4: between sug and Cely, I feel like it's a little

1591
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 4: just even further degraded because when Seely finally does see

1592
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 4: Nettie again, they also share this like long kiss obviously

1593
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,240
Speaker 4: not sexual, they are sisters, but it makes it feel like, oh,

1594
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 4: this is just a form of black female connection. True,

1595
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 4: like Europeans they just deeply kiss when they really care

1596
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 4: about each other.

1597
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 1: We don't do that.

1598
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,120
Speaker 4: I think it makes sense for Nettie because she is

1599
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:43,000
Speaker 4: coming from Africa and like has these customs and is

1600
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:44,519
Speaker 4: saying her sister out for a long time.

1601
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 1: But between Sugar.

1602
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,560
Speaker 4: And Avery, no, that's not just like black girlfriends like

1603
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 4: my lady girl.

1604
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 1: No, it's gay. It's supposed to be gay.

1605
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:54,639
Speaker 2: He's not a sexy kiss. It's like they peck each

1606
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 2: other on the lips a couple of times, and then

1607
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 2: like when they finally do the deeper kiss, it immediately

1608
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 2: like pans away to like see their hands very lightly,

1609
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 2: like their fingertips are like kind of touching each other's

1610
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 2: shoulders and like hip or something like that.

1611
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 1: But I want an oral history of that day on sets.

1612
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not an intimate kiss. It's just it's not

1613
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 2: hot and heavy.

1614
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 4: It's just like, Yeah, I think Stephen was behind the

1615
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 4: camera going not the whole hand on her shoulder, just

1616
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 4: just the fingertips, just the tip tip, just just please,

1617
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 4: little touching, not too much.

1618
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 2: So that was disappointing, very telling.

1619
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's like one of the most

1620
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:40,040
Speaker 1: famously mishandled areas of this movie. But there's just so

1621
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 1: much that is I want to talk a little bit

1622
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 1: about Alice Walker in general and specifically what her relationship

1623
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 1: to this production was, but I feel beholded to say

1624
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 1: Alice Walker, very famous, writer, very well respected, also has

1625
01:25:55,600 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 1: her fair share of pretty tremendous fuck ups in terms

1626
01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: of expressing anti Semitic stances, spreading Holocaust denial, and most

1627
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 1: recently siding with JK. Rowling. So yeah, we're not going

1628
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 1: to get into those issues in detail today, but I

1629
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: do want to acknowledge them because they're all from the

1630
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:17,759
Speaker 1: last ten years.

1631
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's not Tony Morrison. Okay, there's reasons we yeah,

1632
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 4: like some other people a little more.

1633
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it particularly that I was reading her

1634
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:34,800
Speaker 1: history with anti Semitism and you're like, Alice, yeah, because

1635
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:38,599
Speaker 1: she's also pro Palestinian liberation, which is not anti semitic,

1636
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 1: but she's also anti Semitic, and you're just like, you

1637
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: are not helping. You're not helping as it pertains to

1638
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 1: this movie. Sorry, my blood pressure just raised as Pertaises

1639
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 1: movie because we hinted at this earlier where we're like,

1640
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 1: how did we get to Steven Spielberg and who was

1641
01:26:59,000 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 1: their pushback?

1642
01:26:59,600 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 3: You know what?

1643
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,800
Speaker 1: From what I can gather, Alice Walker, like you're saying, Ashley, like,

1644
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 1: she didn't really want the movie to be adapted, especially

1645
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:11,720
Speaker 1: a story that is so rooted in black womanhood and

1646
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 1: there's a queer relationship, Like how would you imagine in

1647
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:17,000
Speaker 1: the eighties that someone wouldn't fuck it up until it

1648
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: was unrecognizable. What convinced her was what we're talking about,

1649
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,840
Speaker 1: where she was like, well, let's see if we can

1650
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 1: produce a decent adaptation of this From the inside. I

1651
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that her contract included that she

1652
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 1: would serve as a project consultant, and that fifty percent

1653
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: of the production team outside of the cast, which is

1654
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 1: obviously vast majority black actors, but that fifty percent of

1655
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: the production team would be African American women or quote,

1656
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: people of the third world unquote. Pretty vague, Yeah, a

1657
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:52,760
Speaker 1: little vague, okay, but that she, you know, was integral

1658
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:56,679
Speaker 1: for her to approving this project at all, to bring

1659
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 1: in people who are massively underrepresented in film into this production,

1660
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 1: which I think is really fucking cool. Like, that's great.

1661
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons, if not the main reason

1662
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:13,799
Speaker 2: she was reluctant to have this be adapted to a movie,

1663
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 2: is because she knew how poorly black people and women

1664
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,599
Speaker 2: and black women in particular are treated by Hollywood, and

1665
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 2: she's like, I don't want that same thing. I don't

1666
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:28,440
Speaker 2: want it to get mishandled if my movie gets adapted.

1667
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 1: But like we.

1668
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 2: Mentioned, she I read that she convened with a group

1669
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 2: of five women to discuss the merits of accepting this

1670
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 2: offer to have her book adapted to film, and they

1671
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 2: were like, well, if this does get made, it could

1672
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 2: help improve the exploitation of black people and black women

1673
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 2: in movies, so let's just kind of yeah, it's like

1674
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:55,800
Speaker 2: an inside job, and.

1675
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 4: We get to put a ton of black actors who

1676
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:00,719
Speaker 4: haven't had this chance to blow up in a Steven

1677
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:01,439
Speaker 4: Spielberg movie.

1678
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 1: Let's do it, Let's go. And I love that there's

1679
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 1: like equal emphasis behind the camera too, like ye, it's

1680
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: it's really cool. And what I found frustrating was that

1681
01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 1: she so she was not a screenwriter by trade, but

1682
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 1: she was a Pulitzer Prize winning fucking writer, and she

1683
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 1: does not get screenplay credit. She wrote the first draft

1684
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 1: and then they kicked it to a white guy who

1685
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 1: had previously or no, hadn't even written Indiana Jones in

1686
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: the Last Crusade yet, but they, I mean, the sole

1687
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:33,679
Speaker 1: credited writer is oh, I don't know how to say

1688
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: his name, Meno may Mayeus Mayeus. Yeah, and that Alice

1689
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 1: Walker was sort of forced to accept that, even though

1690
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:46,679
Speaker 1: she still insisted that she'd be given final script approval.

1691
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,040
Speaker 1: So she worked on the script throughout, but she's obviously

1692
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 1: not credited, and which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And she also,

1693
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:00,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I listened to an interview that she did

1694
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 1: more recently about just like how she was learning about

1695
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 1: movie production through working on this where it sounds like Spielberg.

1696
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: You know, she had things where she was like, all right, Spielberg,

1697
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: these are the things I need you to shoot. I

1698
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:16,840
Speaker 1: will not compromise on these scenes being shot. And he

1699
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 1: was like, all right, I'll shoot him. And many of

1700
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:22,760
Speaker 1: them didn't end up in the movie. And that's how

1701
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:27,680
Speaker 1: I learned about how editing sucks. And then I think

1702
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: the other really influential black creative voice behind the camera

1703
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 1: here is Quincy Jones, who is one of the main producers.

1704
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: I guess he was. I watched an interview from the

1705
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 1: eighties where he was really integral and pushing for Spielberg

1706
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:47,679
Speaker 1: as a director, and then he also curated this iconic

1707
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:51,600
Speaker 1: Quincy Jones score, And I mean, the score of this

1708
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 1: movie is fucking ridiculous. It's great, but yeah, I don't know.

1709
01:30:56,040 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's so fucking telling and frustrating

1710
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 1: that Alice Walker doesn't have at least a shared credit, Like, Okay, yeah,

1711
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:07,519
Speaker 1: she doesn't know how to write a screenplay, fair enough,

1712
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: but also, why do we have to have Meno Mayes

1713
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 1: come in to do it like some white Dutch dude?

1714
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that for me, that was when

1715
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 4: I cause I didn't realize, you know, when you're a kid,

1716
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 4: you don't know what all those names and the credits mean.

1717
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 4: And as a high school after reading the book, I

1718
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 4: realized like, wait a second, Wait a second, she didn't

1719
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 4: write she doesn't say she wrote it.

1720
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 1: Who is this?

1721
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:30,600
Speaker 4: And that yes, when I started to fall out of

1722
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:33,040
Speaker 4: love with the movie and start to question, you know,

1723
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 4: why were certain things cut? Why are certain things presented

1724
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,519
Speaker 4: this way? I think then you start to wonder like, okay, yeah,

1725
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 4: mister is a more one dimensional character. And Alice Walker

1726
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,519
Speaker 4: had a ton of issues because she based the character

1727
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 4: on like her grandfather, I think, and she was hurt

1728
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 4: by that. And then you start to be like, oh, yeah,

1729
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:53,440
Speaker 4: well we're some white Dutch guy didn't understand the complexity

1730
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 4: of like living up to the patriarchal burdens your father

1731
01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:00,120
Speaker 4: has given to you while also like harming women and

1732
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,400
Speaker 4: all of this. So of course it just doesn't translate

1733
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 4: into the script.

1734
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say most, if not all, of the

1735
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 2: male characters in the movie feel extremely caricatureish, slash just

1736
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 2: like stereotypical. Now do I appreciate that at its core,

1737
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:29,519
Speaker 2: this movie is about like women sticking together and forming

1738
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:34,240
Speaker 2: bonds and friendships to protect each other against the abusive

1739
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:37,439
Speaker 2: behavior of the men in their life, and like eventually

1740
01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 2: being able to escape their abusers. Yes, but like we've said,

1741
01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:48,519
Speaker 2: it fails to portray any of the nuance and any

1742
01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 2: of the contexts that explains why these men are like this.

1743
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,679
Speaker 4: Yeah right, it's just not It's kind of the movie

1744
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 4: makes you wonder why to Shug go to be with

1745
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 4: mister Why does she engage in a relationship with him

1746
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 4: if she sees how he treats Seely? And the book

1747
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 4: does a better job of outlining like how he can

1748
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 4: be this sweet, romantic person and you know, like he

1749
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 4: can be everything she wants sometimes, But then there's this darkness,

1750
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,960
Speaker 4: and I think that makes it a little more believable

1751
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,240
Speaker 4: because I think, you know, for us, by the time

1752
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 4: Seely's decided like maybe I should slit his throat, it's like, girl,

1753
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 4: you should do on this twenty minutes ago, Like what yeah,

1754
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 4: girls kill him?

1755
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:33,640
Speaker 1: Get it? I'm over this good his ass? Right, And

1756
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 1: even though it sounds like I mean Spike Lee had

1757
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 1: a arguably outside's reaction, I do understand why he was

1758
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:43,960
Speaker 1: concerned about how black men are portrayed in movies that

1759
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: are written and directed by white boy guy is a

1760
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:50,479
Speaker 1: very very valid concern. It becomes complicated by like that

1761
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:53,640
Speaker 1: big use to undercut or like be implied that that

1762
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,559
Speaker 1: is undercutting both Alice Walker and an all black cast

1763
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:00,479
Speaker 1: in an industry where at that time it rarely have

1764
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,519
Speaker 1: ever happened. But I also, like I do think that

1765
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad, I guess not glad, I mean I'm interested

1766
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:10,040
Speaker 1: to hear that Alice Walker wrote Albert to be less

1767
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,799
Speaker 1: one dimensional. Not because I think that like abusers should

1768
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 1: have more lore, Yeah, but I do think that, like

1769
01:34:19,080 --> 01:34:22,040
Speaker 1: it's We've talked about this trope a million times on

1770
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:24,160
Speaker 1: the show where it's like patriarchy, the guy just the

1771
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 1: guy that does all of the patriarchy things, and he

1772
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:29,160
Speaker 1: is the bad guy and we get rid of him

1773
01:34:29,160 --> 01:34:33,200
Speaker 1: at the end and then misogyny is solved, which it

1774
01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 1: doesn't actually do very much to move the needle on

1775
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: how we talk about anything, and particularly with like white

1776
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: writers and directors, it feels like there are tropes on

1777
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 1: how black men are portrayed in Hollywood, present in these

1778
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 1: characters because of what is taken out.

1779
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:54,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, yeah, it's just really one of those like, yeah,

1780
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 4: I guess the people who were mad.

1781
01:34:56,400 --> 01:34:59,479
Speaker 1: I still like the movie. But everybody's right. It's just

1782
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: truly right. This Spike Lee is right.

1783
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:05,840
Speaker 4: At the same time, I wish that we could have

1784
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 4: seen these other versions where maybe Spike Lee did it,

1785
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:10,400
Speaker 4: where Alice had more say in the script.

1786
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: But what we got, you know, is.

1787
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 4: Passed generations to generations. I don't I truly do watch

1788
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:19,719
Speaker 4: this movie probably every year.

1789
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 1: With my family.

1790
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 4: It is always being played on BD. You know, the cast,

1791
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:27,599
Speaker 4: I think is what ended up making it what it became.

1792
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:31,559
Speaker 4: So you know, you get Oprah, It's gonna stick.

1793
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 1: I mean, right right, there's I haven't read the full book,

1794
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: but there is an interesting excerpt slash discussion of it

1795
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: written in the New Republic recently in the last couple

1796
01:35:45,240 --> 01:35:47,559
Speaker 1: of years, let's say, but there is a book written

1797
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: by writer Salamisha Tillett called In Search of the Color Purple,

1798
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,320
Speaker 1: the Story of an American Masterpiece. Just a series of

1799
01:35:55,920 --> 01:35:59,680
Speaker 1: essays and just reflections on not just this, not just

1800
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 1: the movie or the book, but how the culture received it,

1801
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: I mean, which is a lot. And I learned a

1802
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:09,360
Speaker 1: little more about how Alice Walker was treated in not

1803
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:11,519
Speaker 1: even just the fallout of the movie, but the fallout

1804
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: of the book, which I think again complicates that we

1805
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:18,240
Speaker 1: were just talking about, where it makes a ton of

1806
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 1: sense that black directors and black male directors in particular

1807
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 1: would have an issue with Steven Spielberg portraying Mister in

1808
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:28,479
Speaker 1: the way that he does in this movie, But the

1809
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:31,479
Speaker 1: fact that that same energy was applied to Alice Walker

1810
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,599
Speaker 1: when the book first came out reads very, very differently.

1811
01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:37,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know that when The Color Purple the book

1812
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 1: came out, an excerpt or a piece on it was

1813
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:44,200
Speaker 1: included in MSS magazine, and it was on the cover

1814
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:48,640
Speaker 1: of the magazine, and Gloria Steinem was essentially tasked with

1815
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:53,040
Speaker 1: defending Alice Walker for including her work that had black

1816
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 1: male characters who were abusive towards black women. And how

1817
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 1: that is a completely different discussion. I have a quote

1818
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: from Salamisia Tillett sort of speaking to that her she

1819
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:09,080
Speaker 1: says quote. The controversy also took such a firm hold

1820
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 1: because it drew upon a stereotype that at the time

1821
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:14,400
Speaker 1: was well known among African Americans but far less familiar

1822
01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 1: to white people. The black women as race trader. Likewise

1823
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,479
Speaker 1: till it powerfully pulls from the color Purple controversy as

1824
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:23,640
Speaker 1: an example of how black women have been asked to

1825
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:26,920
Speaker 1: silence their own pain to supposedly serve the greater cause

1826
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 1: of racial uplift. Threaded throughout these attacks on the color

1827
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:33,480
Speaker 1: purple is the idea that the danger of reinforcing stereotypes

1828
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 1: about black male sexuality is too great to allow room

1829
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:39,880
Speaker 1: for black women to have justice. Unquote sounds like an

1830
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 1: interesting book. I'm just like, man, Yeah, that gets that

1831
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:46,479
Speaker 1: sums it up. Yeah, that is Yeah, that's why Spike

1832
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 1: Lee was angry.

1833
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 4: That was absolutely you know, I think a lot of people,

1834
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 4: even in the black community today, it's I think beloved,

1835
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:55,240
Speaker 4: Like I grew up loving it because I have a

1836
01:37:55,280 --> 01:37:57,800
Speaker 4: single mom. But I do think there is still some

1837
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 4: a lot of animosity where people want to call this

1838
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:04,320
Speaker 4: like black tragedy porn. You know that it's just this

1839
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:07,600
Speaker 4: sad thing about black women getting beaten and so it

1840
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:12,240
Speaker 4: should be written off or trauma porn, And you know,

1841
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:14,880
Speaker 4: I think that's just so far from the truth. This

1842
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 4: is a lot of it is based on Alice Walker's

1843
01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:19,280
Speaker 4: real life. I think these are stories that need to

1844
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:22,320
Speaker 4: be told. And at the time, there was a large

1845
01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 4: contingent of people who were like, if we tell these stories,

1846
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 4: they won't give us our respects, our justice. We won't

1847
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 4: and it's like they never will, they never will. Sorry,

1848
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 4: well they're never going to do it, so let us

1849
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 4: tell our stories.

1850
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 2: And it wouldn't be as much of an issue if

1851
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 2: there were just more stories about black characters living their

1852
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:46,920
Speaker 2: normal lives, and you would be able to see black

1853
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:49,160
Speaker 2: joy and you would be able to see black men

1854
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 2: not being abusive and being very loving, caring partners and

1855
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:57,160
Speaker 2: parents and things like that. But because especially at this

1856
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 2: time when this movie's coming out, there were so few

1857
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:06,040
Speaker 2: exist samples of of any other mainstream stories about black people. Yeah,

1858
01:39:06,120 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 2: of course, the kind of reaction to that would have

1859
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:13,000
Speaker 2: been like this is all we get, like the and

1860
01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:16,559
Speaker 2: especially black men being represented this way, right, because there

1861
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 2: there was very little else to look to to say, well,

1862
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 2: here's an example of how we're not all abusers.

1863
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1864
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:29,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, in another world, I wish I

1865
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 4: could see the version of the movie that is made

1866
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:33,560
Speaker 4: with a black male director and how they would have

1867
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 4: approached that with Alice Walker or a black woman. But yeah, yeah, Okay,

1868
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 4: let's not get too crazy. We literally just got a

1869
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 4: black woman to direct a Marvel movie. Let's not push it.

1870
01:39:45,439 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 1: Okay, it's getting great reviews. I'm really excited to see it.

1871
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:51,760
Speaker 1: I haven't been excited to see it a Marvel, but

1872
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:53,280
Speaker 1: I was, like, I had a lot of fun. I

1873
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:57,920
Speaker 1: was good. I got burned by doctors trade. Oh I

1874
01:39:57,960 --> 01:39:59,679
Speaker 1: didn't even mister mister weird.

1875
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1876
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 1: I got burned by that one last year. But I

1877
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:05,600
Speaker 1: give them one a year, and I've been saving the

1878
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:08,040
Speaker 1: Marvels for this year. It's a good one. Yeah. The

1879
01:40:08,479 --> 01:40:15,519
Speaker 1: new adaptation is being directed by Blitz, the Ambassador Blackmail director. Again.

1880
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:19,679
Speaker 1: I guess I just wonder because very different dynamics, obviously,

1881
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:21,640
Speaker 1: but it also reminds me of like, well, we had

1882
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:24,760
Speaker 1: our discussion about Carrie years ago, where it's like an

1883
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 1: adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation, and like can

1884
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 1: you weed out these mistakes or erasures from the eighties

1885
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:35,240
Speaker 1: if you're still adapting it on that, Like, I'm very

1886
01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 1: curious how what creative choices are changed and what are not,

1887
01:40:40,400 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: and like how could you we just need more original stories?

1888
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:46,160
Speaker 4: I think is this this is really the answer, because

1889
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 4: you know, seeing it, Like I know when I go,

1890
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 4: I'm gonna want to hear the lines I love. I'm

1891
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 4: gonna want to hear see the classic moments, like that's

1892
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:54,760
Speaker 4: what we're there for at the end of the day.

1893
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 4: Because it's the color Purple, so it makes it hard

1894
01:40:57,439 --> 01:40:59,680
Speaker 4: to expand that story. And then you add on that

1895
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:03,719
Speaker 4: it's the musical, and I think it's gonna be great,

1896
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:07,840
Speaker 4: but I am expecting, truly to see a movie version

1897
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 4: of the musical. I don't think it's gonna really blow

1898
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 4: my mind.

1899
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:16,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really. My fear is always like, wow, it's

1900
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:20,600
Speaker 1: the like queerest movie of the year, and there's like

1901
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 1: a little like yeah in like the background of a

1902
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 1: scene where something else is happening and they're like, wow,

1903
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:29,680
Speaker 1: the revolution is here, folks. So you're like, all right,

1904
01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:33,360
Speaker 1: but okay, of what we have in this movie, I

1905
01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:36,320
Speaker 1: really genuinely do, even though it is, you know, like

1906
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:41,960
Speaker 1: very Spielberg soapy. I think we're like Alice Walker's, like

1907
01:41:42,200 --> 01:41:46,759
Speaker 1: the relationship dynamics between the women in The Color Purple

1908
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:52,320
Speaker 1: are extremely complex. I really appreciate that Seely is allowed

1909
01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:56,160
Speaker 1: to make mistakes throughout the story. I feel like women

1910
01:41:56,280 --> 01:41:59,240
Speaker 1: are very rarely allowed to make mistakes and not encourage

1911
01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 1: the audience to turn on her. But we see relationships

1912
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 1: between women grow and change over the years, which is

1913
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 1: how life works. But when Cely, you know, at first,

1914
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 1: tells Harpo you should beat Sophia, Sophia confronts her, Cely apologizes,

1915
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 1: doesn't do it again, and they have a kind of

1916
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:23,320
Speaker 1: beautiful relationship moving forward, and it comes full circle when

1917
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 1: you know Cely, I mean again, it's like Spielberg, where

1918
01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:30,240
Speaker 1: it's like Celi said the magic words and Sophia was back,

1919
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:34,639
Speaker 1: and also putting the impetus on her as if Harpo

1920
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 1: had no choice but to do what she said when

1921
01:42:37,240 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 1: he doesn't even take her seriously, like it's ridiculous. But

1922
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:44,040
Speaker 1: that Cely, you know, really shows up for Sophia in

1923
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 1: as many ways as she can, and that Sophia appreciates

1924
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: that and the relationship grows, that's beautiful. I mean, the

1925
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 1: relationship with Sugar is always going to be frustrating because

1926
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:55,760
Speaker 1: you know what's not there. Yeah, but I mean I

1927
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:58,720
Speaker 1: think of what we have, I still like what we have.

1928
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:02,080
Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, knowing that there is more is

1929
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrating.

1930
01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:07,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that you didn't get more because some white

1931
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:10,720
Speaker 4: Dutch guy and Steven Spielberg, they just don't want it.

1932
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:14,360
Speaker 2: It's on the this is too sexy for us.

1933
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like again like the ratings thing in

1934
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 1: the culture as it was. It also had no issue

1935
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 1: showing mister having sex with a very young Cely, like

1936
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 1: no problem.

1937
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:29,320
Speaker 2: You know, statutory raping.

1938
01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:32,400
Speaker 4: Yeah her, she's like straight up fourteen or fifteen in

1939
01:43:32,479 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 4: that scene.

1940
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:36,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean we've already talked about it. But

1941
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:40,320
Speaker 1: it's just like it's so ridiculous. But I mean, women

1942
01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 1: are still very much showing up for each other, and

1943
01:43:43,280 --> 01:43:46,040
Speaker 1: the way that Ceely grows as a character is almost

1944
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,560
Speaker 1: entirely comes from within herself and also from observing the

1945
01:43:49,640 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 1: women around her, and it's done in a very sanitized

1946
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 1: way in this movie. But it does happen. And I

1947
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:58,160
Speaker 1: cry when the movie told me to cry.

1948
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sobbing. When Eddie's there and or and the

1949
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:07,040
Speaker 4: scarf is blowing in the wind, I'm sobbing. I'm sobbing.

1950
01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:11,160
Speaker 1: They got me, It's true. Two fun production facts that

1951
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:15,320
Speaker 1: I found that Oprah when Oprah was like in I

1952
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:19,080
Speaker 1: guess some meeting with Steven Spielberg. Early in the production

1953
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 1: of this movie, she was like, Oh, Harpo's Oprah backwards.

1954
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 1: That's weird. Yes, this is a big thing in Oprah lore.

1955
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:33,479
Speaker 2: Yes, Harpo was Oprah Backwards as a young subscriber to

1956
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:35,519
Speaker 2: OH magazine as a child.

1957
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:39,160
Speaker 1: I knew that story before I saw the movie.

1958
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:42,120
Speaker 4: I think that's why her production company is named Harpo.

1959
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:45,920
Speaker 4: Like she names her whole thing Harpo because of that.

1960
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:48,920
Speaker 1: I guess I'm pretty sure that the New or maybe

1961
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 1: it is like technically owned, but like the New Color

1962
01:44:52,439 --> 01:44:55,519
Speaker 1: Purple adaptation is like produced by Harpo, which is like

1963
01:44:56,320 --> 01:44:57,600
Speaker 1: just the irony o.

1964
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:00,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, her talk show was produced by Harpo, so like

1965
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:03,960
Speaker 4: she had a Harpo Studios in Chicago, like she's in it.

1966
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,120
Speaker 4: She was like, that was my man in the movie,

1967
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 4: and I've taken that.

1968
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:11,080
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean and just a quick mention. I mean again,

1969
01:45:11,160 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 1: if you're if you grew up within Oprah lore, you

1970
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 1: probably know this already. But that part of the reason

1971
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:21,080
Speaker 1: that Oprah felt so extremely strongly about this material was

1972
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:24,519
Speaker 1: that she had grown up having experiences like Sealy and

1973
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 1: had been incestually abused, and understandably was very connected to

1974
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:34,439
Speaker 1: Alice Walker's work and lobbied for this part hard and

1975
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 1: then killed it. It was a wonderful job.

1976
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1977
01:45:37,160 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 1: The other detail that I wanted to add, just because

1978
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:42,639
Speaker 1: I think it's funny, is there was a casting director

1979
01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:47,280
Speaker 1: who I wrote his name down, casting director named Ruben Cannon,

1980
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:52,200
Speaker 1: who was choosing the main cast and recommended Whoopy Goldberg.

1981
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:56,040
Speaker 1: Whoopy Goldberg came into audition and did her stand.

1982
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 2: Up routine first of all, which is so weird iconic,

1983
01:45:58,360 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 2: and second of all, did a joke about.

1984
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 1: Et smoking weed. And I just think that that is

1985
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:10,240
Speaker 1: funny because that in no way proves that you could

1986
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:14,520
Speaker 1: play the part of Seely. But she still was unbelievable,

1987
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:17,040
Speaker 1: Like I can't believe that just like has to be

1988
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:22,600
Speaker 1: the best debut film performance of all time. But she

1989
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:25,000
Speaker 1: got it by being like, what if eed smoked weed?

1990
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome.

1991
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:29,559
Speaker 4: At the time, she was like the biggest black female

1992
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:30,919
Speaker 4: stand up in the country.

1993
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do know.

1994
01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:35,160
Speaker 4: Alice Walker was actually not very happy that she was

1995
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 4: cast because she felt that Seely should have been larger,

1996
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 4: more overweight, and someone who is like considered kind of

1997
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 4: like more mainstream unattractive, whereas Woobie Goldberg is like gorgeous.

1998
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:49,479
Speaker 4: So that was another thing where Alice Walker was like

1999
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:51,320
Speaker 4: I just wasn't happy. I felt like, you know, I

2000
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:54,000
Speaker 4: wrote these characters who looked like real people and they

2001
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:56,920
Speaker 4: got actors and it's like, well that's kind of how

2002
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 4: movies go.

2003
01:46:57,920 --> 01:47:03,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, what Bee is incredible in this performance,

2004
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:06,640
Speaker 2: in her monologue at the dinner table toward the end

2005
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:09,160
Speaker 2: is just my favorite.

2006
01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:13,040
Speaker 1: Thing, so good. So I always forget that she because

2007
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:17,559
Speaker 1: I mean, she's so famously egot, but I always forget

2008
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:19,760
Speaker 1: that she did not win for this movie. She went

2009
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:24,440
Speaker 1: for Ghost. I think she won, which is a wonderful performance.

2010
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 1: But like, of the two, you're like, really okay, okay. Sure.

2011
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 2: There's a few kind of themes or just like things

2012
01:47:33,560 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 2: that the movie explores that I feel are like kind

2013
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,120
Speaker 2: of connected or just like all in the same vein

2014
01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 2: of like power dynamics in relationships between characters. There is

2015
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:51,560
Speaker 2: like characters relationships with their fathers, which again is like

2016
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:54,640
Speaker 2: very emphasized in this movie in a way that it

2017
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:57,479
Speaker 2: seems like maybe the book doesn't do quite so much,

2018
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,920
Speaker 2: or that it like places as much physis on like

2019
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:07,680
Speaker 2: mother child relationships. And then the way that women are

2020
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:13,360
Speaker 2: perceived by men and treated by men in this movie

2021
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:16,720
Speaker 2: where there's just you know, all these things of like

2022
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:22,519
Speaker 2: with suggavery Love, the character you have like Albert's father

2023
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:26,680
Speaker 2: is insulting her and you know, saying she's unclean, she's

2024
01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:30,680
Speaker 2: a Jezebel, she has nasty women's disease, all of her

2025
01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:34,240
Speaker 2: children have different fathers, things like that. It's literally sounding

2026
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 2: like Trump in twenty fifteen.

2027
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 1: Right, it's like a nasty woman if I had to

2028
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 1: guess who you were.

2029
01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 2: But right, and then you have like Seely's voiceover, and

2030
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:47,439
Speaker 2: at this point in the movie you don't really know

2031
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:52,480
Speaker 2: what dynamic Sugar and Seely have quite yet, but Steely's

2032
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 2: voiceover is like saying, like, folks don't like it when

2033
01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:59,880
Speaker 2: people are too proud or too free. And because Sugar

2034
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:03,760
Speaker 2: like this woman who has who has autonomy over her

2035
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:08,519
Speaker 2: life and her choices and her career, you know, and

2036
01:49:08,640 --> 01:49:10,720
Speaker 2: she has this what's considered to be this kind of

2037
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:15,840
Speaker 2: unsavory profession where she's singing in juke joints and all

2038
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:20,120
Speaker 2: this stuff. Everyone thinks like the men especially and like

2039
01:49:20,280 --> 01:49:24,280
Speaker 2: the older generation of men with like Albert's father and

2040
01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 2: her own father, like see her as this sinner, and

2041
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:33,920
Speaker 2: then you have like Sophia as this very headstrong person

2042
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 2: doesn't take bullshit from anyone. Albert and Harpo alike are

2043
01:49:38,439 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 2: threatened by this, and.

2044
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and briefly so is Cely.

2045
01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 4: Yeah true, yes, yeah, And like I think it's so

2046
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,600
Speaker 4: clear in the scene where she first sees Sophia and

2047
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 4: she talks about how Sophia and Harper were coming to

2048
01:49:53,600 --> 01:49:55,880
Speaker 4: meet the dad at Mister for the first time, and

2049
01:49:56,040 --> 01:49:57,000
Speaker 4: Celi is like, she.

2050
01:49:57,120 --> 01:49:58,240
Speaker 1: Came storming up.

2051
01:49:58,360 --> 01:50:00,760
Speaker 4: She's I can see him from so she's so big,

2052
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:04,880
Speaker 4: Like she's so horrible, she's so headstrong and loud, and

2053
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:08,960
Speaker 4: I think some of that is jealousy, but then slowly

2054
01:50:09,080 --> 01:50:10,880
Speaker 4: she comes to kind of accept her. But I think

2055
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:13,599
Speaker 4: that is a theme, like how these three main women

2056
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 4: all have to deal with their power dynamics against men

2057
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:20,080
Speaker 4: in different ways. Where Seely, you know, knows she doesn't

2058
01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:23,599
Speaker 4: have like the privilege of beauty, so she has become

2059
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 4: more timid, where Sophia realizes she doesn't have that, but

2060
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:30,439
Speaker 4: she decides to become more head strong and outspoken, and

2061
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:33,080
Speaker 4: she has that family support where she's allowed to do that,

2062
01:50:33,200 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 4: you know, and even in their wedding, like her family

2063
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 4: keeps mister away from her.

2064
01:50:37,080 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: And is like, no, we're not dealing with you.

2065
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:41,439
Speaker 4: So she is able to do that. But then you

2066
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:44,080
Speaker 4: also have sug who isn't She doesn't have that fit,

2067
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:46,160
Speaker 4: but she does have her beauty and she uses that

2068
01:50:46,439 --> 01:50:48,360
Speaker 4: to get what she, you know, needs to survive in

2069
01:50:48,439 --> 01:50:49,439
Speaker 4: this patriarchal society.

2070
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:53,639
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, And then like to the the power dynamic

2071
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,920
Speaker 2: thing where there are various conversations where you know, like

2072
01:50:58,200 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 2: Neddie says to seely, like you need to have the

2073
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:04,200
Speaker 2: upper hand over Mister's kids, and you know, you got

2074
01:51:04,320 --> 01:51:07,599
Speaker 2: to show them whose boss. And then like mister tells

2075
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:10,599
Speaker 2: his son Harpo that he needs to have the upper

2076
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:13,640
Speaker 2: hand over Sophia, And there's all these like because this

2077
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:18,120
Speaker 2: is a very patriarchal society and because men are conditioned

2078
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:22,240
Speaker 2: to think that they have to control these women, who

2079
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 2: if they aren't controlled, they'll end up like sug as

2080
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:29,680
Speaker 2: these Jezebel's quote unquote right, and you're like, oh, no,

2081
01:51:30,280 --> 01:51:34,759
Speaker 2: I might be hot and talented, you'll you'll get nasty

2082
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,320
Speaker 2: women's disease, You'll have to sit in a tug. If

2083
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:41,160
Speaker 2: you don't control your woman, she'll get that disease. And

2084
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:44,760
Speaker 2: then but Shug has most, if not all, of the

2085
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:49,080
Speaker 2: power in her relationship with Albert. You see him like, Oh,

2086
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:51,400
Speaker 2: I'll bend over backwards for you, I'll do whatever you want.

2087
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 2: I'll try to cook for you, even though I don't.

2088
01:51:53,840 --> 01:51:55,560
Speaker 2: I can't. I don't know to cook at all. Like,

2089
01:51:55,960 --> 01:52:00,240
Speaker 2: it's just interesting to see how the various characters kind

2090
01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:04,280
Speaker 2: of just use what they have, like the tools that

2091
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 2: they have, like you said, Ashley, like what they have

2092
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:09,799
Speaker 2: got going for them that they can kind of almost

2093
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:17,320
Speaker 2: exploit to not feel so powerless in a world where

2094
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:22,479
Speaker 2: poor black women have so little power, especially in like

2095
01:52:23,160 --> 01:52:24,679
Speaker 2: Jim Crow era South.

2096
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:26,679
Speaker 1: Yet this is taking place and the book.

2097
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:28,759
Speaker 4: Is and I think this is another area where Alice

2098
01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:31,639
Speaker 4: is upset in how the movie makes the men really

2099
01:52:31,680 --> 01:52:34,559
Speaker 4: one dimensional, because the book is very clear that one

2100
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:37,360
Speaker 4: of the reasons these men feel they need to control

2101
01:52:37,439 --> 01:52:40,280
Speaker 4: a woman is because they are also controlled in this

2102
01:52:40,439 --> 01:52:43,840
Speaker 4: racist Jim Crow society is that they and we kind

2103
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:46,360
Speaker 4: of see it in the scene with Miss Millie when

2104
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:48,760
Speaker 4: she's like, oh, you know, Sophia, you can spend all

2105
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:50,519
Speaker 4: Christmas with your family and I'll drive home and then

2106
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:52,280
Speaker 4: she can't, and all these black men are trying to

2107
01:52:52,320 --> 01:52:54,680
Speaker 4: help her, but she immediately is like, they're trying to

2108
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:58,160
Speaker 4: attack me, and you know, they start to be submissive

2109
01:52:58,200 --> 01:53:00,840
Speaker 4: to her, and so it's kind of at there. It's

2110
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,080
Speaker 4: like the first time you see Harpo like stand down

2111
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 4: to a woman and be like, oh no, missing ma'am,

2112
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:06,760
Speaker 4: we're trying to help you. And it's also one of

2113
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:10,240
Speaker 4: my favorite examples of just white feminism guilt and privilege

2114
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:14,000
Speaker 4: in that scene because she just immediately starts. But in

2115
01:53:14,080 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 4: the movie that isn't so clear, like what is driving

2116
01:53:17,080 --> 01:53:19,599
Speaker 4: their need to control. It does feel very like mister

2117
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:21,680
Speaker 4: just wants seely because he needs someone around the house

2118
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:24,040
Speaker 4: take care of his kids and clean. But in the

2119
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:26,960
Speaker 4: book it's a little more like he has this expectation

2120
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:30,120
Speaker 4: that if he is meant to be subservient in the society,

2121
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:33,880
Speaker 4: someone should be subservient to him. So that is why

2122
01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 4: he has this sealy person. Even though he does like

2123
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:39,920
Speaker 4: have romantic feelings for sug that he has a whole mistress,

2124
01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:42,400
Speaker 4: like they to have sex, they hook up, but to him,

2125
01:53:42,479 --> 01:53:46,080
Speaker 4: it's like, no, to prove my manhood and to have

2126
01:53:46,439 --> 01:53:49,040
Speaker 4: a sense of self when my black masculinity is degraded.

2127
01:53:49,439 --> 01:53:52,479
Speaker 1: I need to have a Seily type. So the book

2128
01:53:52,479 --> 01:53:53,600
Speaker 1: I think is.

2129
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,559
Speaker 4: A little more interesting with that. But in the movie

2130
01:53:56,640 --> 01:53:59,160
Speaker 4: it's just like, dude, are you being such a dick?

2131
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:03,080
Speaker 1: That's ather' like area where like I think, like Spike

2132
01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 1: Lee's criticism is applicable where there is this void of

2133
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:09,880
Speaker 1: historical context and it's made to more seem like, well,

2134
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:12,920
Speaker 1: it's in the nature of these characters who behave this

2135
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:15,519
Speaker 1: way and because you're not given I mean it's like

2136
01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:18,439
Speaker 1: you do get the year, but there's not a lot

2137
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:20,040
Speaker 1: of historical specificity.

2138
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:23,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like none of the black men in the film

2139
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 4: like really face any racism other than that moment with

2140
01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:29,160
Speaker 4: the car, like you never it's never, you know, you'd

2141
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 4: see Cely afraid in a shop because a white shop

2142
01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 4: owner is you know, like looking at her and it's

2143
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:38,200
Speaker 4: like you need something, missus, you know, and you see

2144
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 4: that discomfort.

2145
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,200
Speaker 1: You see Sophia be harmed. But like the men, it.

2146
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:43,560
Speaker 4: Seems like, oh do they just like have it pretty good.

2147
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 4: They're just like building their juke joints, having businesses, they

2148
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:50,920
Speaker 4: enjoying their farms, like what no right, you know, And

2149
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:53,960
Speaker 4: then they come in at the end with this oh yeah, yeah, No,

2150
01:54:54,040 --> 01:54:56,040
Speaker 4: Actually their dad was lynched because he was a civil

2151
01:54:56,120 --> 01:54:57,960
Speaker 4: rights guy, so don't so. Yeah, so the guys don't

2152
01:54:58,000 --> 01:54:58,720
Speaker 4: have it easy.

2153
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:05,280
Speaker 2: Because you aren't very closely listening to that one very briefs.

2154
01:55:06,280 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 4: You miss a entire you miss the whole thing. If

2155
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:11,880
Speaker 4: you don't, if you don't hear that.

2156
01:55:12,520 --> 01:55:15,640
Speaker 1: Yes, when it's like that. Originally it was a huge

2157
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:17,800
Speaker 1: plot weight as well. It should have been the glazing

2158
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 1: over stuff like that just like removes historical specificity and

2159
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 1: does make the men seem abusive in a complete void, And.

2160
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:31,480
Speaker 2: It could have been such an interesting thing to examine

2161
01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:39,400
Speaker 2: that tendency for marginalized people feeling so powerless and disempowered

2162
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:44,440
Speaker 2: by the world around them that some people will try

2163
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:47,680
Speaker 2: to then exert any power over anyone else that they can.

2164
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:52,400
Speaker 2: And that's obviously not something to admire. That's you know,

2165
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 2: not good behavior, but it happens very frequently, and it's

2166
01:55:56,720 --> 01:55:59,520
Speaker 2: I haven't seen many movies that really explore that very

2167
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:03,920
Speaker 2: thoughtful or in like a nuanced way, where you know,

2168
01:56:04,200 --> 01:56:08,960
Speaker 2: marginalized people will marginalize someone who they perceive to have

2169
01:56:09,120 --> 01:56:12,200
Speaker 2: less power than them. Yeah, and to me, it's such

2170
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 2: a fascinating thing but yeah, movies just kind of.

2171
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:17,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, if you've read or seen their

2172
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:21,400
Speaker 4: eyes were watching God as Erniel Hurston. So Oprah also

2173
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:24,800
Speaker 4: was producing this one, but they made it a series,

2174
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 4: a limited series, so they had more time, they dig

2175
01:56:28,400 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 4: into more things, and I thought it was incredibly done.

2176
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 4: But that's like the only time where I really feel

2177
01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:37,400
Speaker 4: an adaptation has done a great job of trying to

2178
01:56:37,480 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 4: really capture the history, the political tone, the racism. Maybe

2179
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:44,520
Speaker 4: Oprah learned by the time he got to that one.

2180
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:47,080
Speaker 4: She was like, guys, I know, we gotta do right.

2181
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:50,200
Speaker 1: Or just like had creative control, Like that's yeah.

2182
01:56:50,400 --> 01:56:55,480
Speaker 4: And her adaptation of Beloved is also really good. But yeah, yeah,

2183
01:56:55,480 --> 01:56:55,840
Speaker 4: I think it.

2184
01:56:56,000 --> 01:56:57,760
Speaker 1: So I gotta put the blame on Spielberg.

2185
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:02,080
Speaker 2: I mean fair, I'm comfortable. I mean, mister Steve, mister Steve,

2186
01:57:02,240 --> 01:57:05,640
Speaker 2: it's on you, Steve. Oh oh, I had this is

2187
01:57:05,680 --> 01:57:07,640
Speaker 2: a really goofy observation.

2188
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:11,480
Speaker 1: But because we just covered Steel Magnolias Ashley, I was like, wow,

2189
01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 1: miss Millie and Clari Belcher similar the mayor's wife. Oh,

2190
01:57:18,440 --> 01:57:22,760
Speaker 1: they're like alternate universe Clari Belcher. Anyways, that was just

2191
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 1: a thought I had because that is a Southern movie

2192
01:57:26,160 --> 01:57:33,760
Speaker 1: that conspicuously erases anyone who is not white from the story. Yeah,

2193
01:57:33,760 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 1: I also thought that, I'm curious, I didn't read this

2194
01:57:36,880 --> 01:57:39,800
Speaker 1: section of the book, so I don't know how sanitized

2195
01:57:40,120 --> 01:57:43,760
Speaker 1: that exchange is because I know that the way that

2196
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:47,480
Speaker 1: Squeak was involved in sort of negotiating Sophia's prison sentence

2197
01:57:48,120 --> 01:57:49,560
Speaker 1: isn't really Yeah, it's not in there.

2198
01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 4: None of her prison sentence is really in there. It's

2199
01:57:52,960 --> 01:57:55,920
Speaker 4: really detailed, like the what she goes through, the torture

2200
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:58,760
Speaker 4: they put her through, like they go visit her. Those

2201
01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:00,760
Speaker 4: are deeps, like you know, bringing her stuff and trying

2202
01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:02,960
Speaker 4: to help her, and how they slowly see her like

2203
01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:06,720
Speaker 4: become less of herself. And then when she gets out,

2204
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:08,680
Speaker 4: her like having to work for that family is more

2205
01:58:08,680 --> 01:58:11,440
Speaker 4: of like a punishment. It's more than being like we

2206
01:58:11,560 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 4: got you. Well, the movie kind of makes it like

2207
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:16,840
Speaker 4: she didn't have a choice, like you know, this was

2208
01:58:16,880 --> 01:58:19,040
Speaker 4: the only job she could get, I guess, but it

2209
01:58:19,360 --> 01:58:23,520
Speaker 4: really shows that it's a more sinister act of like

2210
01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:24,400
Speaker 4: white aggression.

2211
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do agree that this is like a pretty

2212
01:58:28,200 --> 01:58:34,000
Speaker 1: solid example of white woman. Multiple times, at every scene

2213
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:37,360
Speaker 1: she's in, she is weaponizing, and every scene in the movie,

2214
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:39,280
Speaker 1: she's like, but I've always been so nice to you.

2215
01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm so good to you. So Fa, well, she's like

2216
01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:45,760
Speaker 1: doing donuts in the backyard. I'm like, oh my god,

2217
01:58:45,840 --> 01:58:46,360
Speaker 1: oh my god.

2218
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:48,160
Speaker 4: She's just plunging so Vi in the face, like I'm

2219
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:49,160
Speaker 4: so kind to you.

2220
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 1: Why don't you accept it?

2221
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:53,720
Speaker 4: And then Sophia doesn't get to spend Christmas with her family.

2222
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:56,840
Speaker 4: She has to leave immediately because Miss Millie can't drive.

2223
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm glad that there is the inclusion of the

2224
01:59:02,520 --> 01:59:05,880
Speaker 2: Miss Millie character because it does i think, maybe better

2225
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 2: than other things that the movie glosses over, but like

2226
01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:13,280
Speaker 2: it does really show her as this like specific type

2227
01:59:13,320 --> 01:59:18,920
Speaker 2: of white woman who fetishizes black people. Not in like

2228
01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:21,840
Speaker 2: a sexual way that we know of with Miss Milly,

2229
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:24,720
Speaker 2: but there's probably a better word for it. But like

2230
01:59:25,400 --> 01:59:28,960
Speaker 2: she like is very drawn to Sophia and her children.

2231
01:59:29,040 --> 01:59:31,920
Speaker 2: She's like, oh, aren't you the cutest little little kid?

2232
01:59:32,160 --> 01:59:35,400
Speaker 2: Kiss kiss, kiss on the face. And she's like, Sophia,

2233
01:59:35,480 --> 01:59:37,080
Speaker 2: please work for infantilizing.

2234
01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:38,960
Speaker 1: Yes, for sure, infantilizing.

2235
01:59:39,120 --> 01:59:43,720
Speaker 4: I think it's also with Sophia the mammification of black women,

2236
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:46,200
Speaker 4: where she sees, you know, this larger black woman who

2237
01:59:46,240 --> 01:59:47,720
Speaker 4: she believes should want to take care.

2238
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:49,560
Speaker 1: Of her and be, you know, her nanny.

2239
01:59:49,680 --> 01:59:53,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think she's like the type of

2240
01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:58,000
Speaker 2: white person who thinks they're being an ally to black

2241
01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 2: people and who like understands, i think, probably on only

2242
02:00:01,960 --> 02:00:06,120
Speaker 2: a very very surface level, like the plight of black people.

2243
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:09,240
Speaker 2: But she's not an ally to them. She's still like

2244
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:14,880
Speaker 2: extremely scared of black people, and she's not trying to

2245
02:00:14,880 --> 02:00:16,960
Speaker 2: be an ally. She doesn't want to be a friend.

2246
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:20,640
Speaker 2: She wants Sophia to work for her. Like, so it's

2247
02:00:20,640 --> 02:00:22,960
Speaker 2: all these things where she like has this very warped

2248
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:26,040
Speaker 2: perception of like she thinks she's doing the right thing,

2249
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:30,680
Speaker 2: and yeah, she's very much not. And that is a

2250
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 2: dynamic that still exists very much to Okay, but yeah,

2251
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:38,160
Speaker 2: I'm glad that the movie like shows that.

2252
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:41,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Spielberg got that part right. He did manage to

2253
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 4: nail down that part.

2254
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, good job, mister Steve. Is there anything else anyone

2255
02:00:48,280 --> 02:00:50,200
Speaker 2: wants to discuss?

2256
02:00:50,840 --> 02:00:52,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we could keep going forever, but that was

2257
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:53,720
Speaker 1: about everything that I had.

2258
02:00:53,840 --> 02:00:58,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like we touched on everything that's at Yes,

2259
02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:00,880
Speaker 4: it's just so it's such a long movie. There's so

2260
02:01:01,080 --> 02:01:04,640
Speaker 4: much that happens. It's I mean truly, there's so much

2261
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:06,360
Speaker 4: that happens that at the end they're like, can we

2262
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:08,520
Speaker 4: just have a letter that like speeds this all up

2263
02:01:08,640 --> 02:01:10,640
Speaker 4: just one less. She's like, your dad isn't really your

2264
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:11,640
Speaker 4: dad is stepdads?

2265
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:14,120
Speaker 1: Is we on the land? By the way, your kids

2266
02:01:14,120 --> 02:01:14,400
Speaker 1: are good?

2267
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:15,440
Speaker 4: I got them and we're good.

2268
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:16,520
Speaker 1: Gets to gets to the end of the movie.

2269
02:01:17,400 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really does feel rushed in those like last

2270
02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:21,840
Speaker 2: twenty minutes or so. Yeah, they're like, oh my gosh,

2271
02:01:21,920 --> 02:01:22,960
Speaker 2: so much happened.

2272
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:24,480
Speaker 1: But what I can't keep up?

2273
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, does the movie pass the Bechdel test?

2274
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:30,000
Speaker 3: Yes?

2275
02:01:30,800 --> 02:01:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's quite a lot. The main or at

2276
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 2: least the moments of like Levity and this pretty heavy

2277
02:01:41,600 --> 02:01:46,280
Speaker 2: movie are women interacting with each other and their friendship

2278
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:50,960
Speaker 2: and their bond and I like that very much about

2279
02:01:50,960 --> 02:01:55,080
Speaker 2: this movie. Yeah. As far as our nipple scale, our

2280
02:01:55,160 --> 02:01:59,200
Speaker 2: scale of zero to five nipples, where we evaluate the

2281
02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:04,160
Speaker 2: movie based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens,

2282
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:12,760
Speaker 2: I'll give this I think three nipples, and I might

2283
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:17,000
Speaker 2: be swayed to give it more or maybe less.

2284
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:17,320
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2285
02:02:17,640 --> 02:02:22,640
Speaker 2: I think that Spielberg, mister Steve directing this movie, and

2286
02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:27,600
Speaker 2: that other white guy whose name I forget, who is

2287
02:02:27,680 --> 02:02:31,120
Speaker 2: credited as writing the screenplay, even though you know many

2288
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 2: drafts were written, some of them by Alice Walker, and

2289
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:39,400
Speaker 2: she consulted on the project through the development of the

2290
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:44,040
Speaker 2: script along the way. Again she's not credited, right, Yeah,

2291
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:48,720
Speaker 2: But because when you watched the movie you can tell

2292
02:02:48,960 --> 02:02:51,320
Speaker 2: that it was a book adapted by a black writer

2293
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:57,120
Speaker 2: and then like whitewashed and straight washed and things like that,

2294
02:02:57,480 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 2: would the movie have had the budget and the just

2295
02:03:02,640 --> 02:03:08,200
Speaker 2: like renown that it ended up getting if Spielberg didn't

2296
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:11,000
Speaker 2: direct it. Possibly not. So it's like this very catch

2297
02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:14,800
Speaker 2: twenty two thing, but there's components of it that end

2298
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:19,920
Speaker 2: up being very disappointing because of how these white filmmakers

2299
02:03:20,080 --> 02:03:24,280
Speaker 2: handled certain things. But again, at its core, this is

2300
02:03:24,280 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 2: a movie about like sisterhood and female friendships and female

2301
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:33,800
Speaker 2: relationships and women looking out for each other and protecting

2302
02:03:33,840 --> 02:03:40,040
Speaker 2: each other for the most part from the abuse that

2303
02:03:40,200 --> 02:03:44,160
Speaker 2: men inflict upon them. So the premise I like very much.

2304
02:03:44,320 --> 02:03:48,080
Speaker 2: The performances are great, There's just something to be desired

2305
02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:53,600
Speaker 2: in the way the story unfolds as told by these

2306
02:03:53,640 --> 02:03:57,120
Speaker 2: white filmmakers. So I'm excited to see the twenty twenty

2307
02:03:57,160 --> 02:04:01,839
Speaker 2: three adaptation and to see hopefully a lot of course correction,

2308
02:04:02,240 --> 02:04:06,640
Speaker 2: another great cast, Yes, great cast, wonderful casts, So I'm

2309
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:09,120
Speaker 2: looking forward to it. I'll give this nineteen eighty five

2310
02:04:09,200 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 2: adaptation three nipples. I will give one to Whoopi Goldberg,

2311
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:16,560
Speaker 2: I'll give one to Oprah, and I'll give my final

2312
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:21,760
Speaker 2: nipple to Margaret Avery, who plays sug who.

2313
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:23,400
Speaker 1: At the time was kind of the only famous person

2314
02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:26,080
Speaker 1: in this movie, which is wild. Yeah, okay, I'll beat

2315
02:04:26,080 --> 02:04:29,200
Speaker 1: you at three. I've tempted to go more only because

2316
02:04:29,240 --> 02:04:32,560
Speaker 1: I love the performances so much. But I think based

2317
02:04:32,560 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 1: on the discussion we've had, and I agree with that

2318
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:37,440
Speaker 1: you're saying, Kaitlin, like, where a lot of the production

2319
02:04:38,200 --> 02:04:42,960
Speaker 1: dissonance is connected to what an impossible situation Black creatives

2320
02:04:43,480 --> 02:04:45,360
Speaker 1: were put into it this time and still are often

2321
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 1: put it to now, and that's how you end up

2322
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:51,520
Speaker 1: with Spielberg. And when you end up with Spielberg, what

2323
02:04:51,640 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 1: are the consequences of that? And I mean, we talked

2324
02:04:55,200 --> 02:04:58,440
Speaker 1: it through pretty considerably, and it feels like it makes

2325
02:04:58,520 --> 02:05:01,000
Speaker 1: total sense to me why there will always be new

2326
02:05:01,080 --> 02:05:04,680
Speaker 1: rounds of discourse about this movie good, bad, and different.

2327
02:05:05,680 --> 02:05:08,320
Speaker 1: And I also, you know, I think that it is

2328
02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:12,960
Speaker 1: a beautifully made movie. The performances are like you can't

2329
02:05:13,080 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: argue with a single one of them. And also everything

2330
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:18,000
Speaker 1: we just said in the last two and a half hours.

2331
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:21,400
Speaker 1: So I'm going to say three. Let's go with three.

2332
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to give one to Oh sorry, my kitten

2333
02:05:25,240 --> 02:05:31,360
Speaker 1: is like hungry and so ruining my life. I'm going

2334
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:33,600
Speaker 1: to give one to Whoopee. I'm going to give one

2335
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:39,360
Speaker 1: to Oprah, and I'm going to give one two. Oh

2336
02:05:39,440 --> 02:05:44,160
Speaker 1: my gosh. Her name is ray Dawn Chong, who plays

2337
02:05:44,320 --> 02:05:49,920
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes aka Squeak. Because she is Tommy Chong's daughter.

2338
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:53,960
Speaker 1: I love oh and I thought, how how fun for

2339
02:05:54,480 --> 02:05:59,280
Speaker 1: a nepotism. That's a fun nepotism. Nepotism. So I will

2340
02:05:59,320 --> 02:06:02,080
Speaker 1: give the final to her and that fun nepotism.

2341
02:06:02,600 --> 02:06:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Ashley, Yes, I'm going to give it four.

2342
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:07,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to give four.

2343
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:10,280
Speaker 4: I agree with everything you've all said, but I think

2344
02:06:11,080 --> 02:06:14,080
Speaker 4: at the end of it, for me, no matter what

2345
02:06:14,280 --> 02:06:17,360
Speaker 4: happened behind the scenes, the anger that it caused. Black

2346
02:06:17,400 --> 02:06:19,920
Speaker 4: women as a community took this movie and we made

2347
02:06:19,920 --> 02:06:22,640
Speaker 4: it our own. Like my mom sees her story in

2348
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:26,480
Speaker 4: this my grandmother, my aunt's. It is a language between us,

2349
02:06:26,680 --> 02:06:28,640
Speaker 4: like if you see like a friend that you haven't

2350
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:30,920
Speaker 4: seen a long time, you will do the handclap motion

2351
02:06:31,480 --> 02:06:35,400
Speaker 4: in the airport like it's we embraced it. I already

2352
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:37,080
Speaker 4: knew as soon as the movie was announced the twenty

2353
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:39,000
Speaker 4: twenty three one, I was gonna go see it. So

2354
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:42,800
Speaker 4: despite the shortcomings, which I think within our community we

2355
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:46,120
Speaker 4: can see and address and talk to, we're able to

2356
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:48,800
Speaker 4: appreciate this movie. It's why it's become such a big

2357
02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 4: thing for us amongst the general public. Yes, I wish

2358
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:53,600
Speaker 4: it had done a better job, but at the end

2359
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:55,680
Speaker 4: of the day, you know what Oprah's in this movie.

2360
02:06:55,760 --> 02:06:58,040
Speaker 4: It's for black women, and we were happy with it.

2361
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:01,000
Speaker 4: So I'm going to give it for I will also

2362
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:04,920
Speaker 4: give it to Whoopee, to Oprah. I'm going to actually

2363
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 4: give one to Danny Glover because he was so good

2364
02:07:08,160 --> 02:07:10,680
Speaker 4: in this role that every black woman I knew hated

2365
02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:13,680
Speaker 4: him for so long. He'd be in other things and

2366
02:07:13,720 --> 02:07:15,760
Speaker 4: people would just be like, I can't I can't look

2367
02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:16,320
Speaker 4: at his face.

2368
02:07:16,560 --> 02:07:18,200
Speaker 1: It's mister, I hate him so much.

2369
02:07:18,320 --> 02:07:20,000
Speaker 2: Being is lethal weapon.

2370
02:07:21,040 --> 02:07:25,480
Speaker 1: Uh, it's the one with Bruce willis Diehard. Is he

2371
02:07:25,560 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 1: in die Hard?

2372
02:07:26,680 --> 02:07:27,040
Speaker 2: We're not.

2373
02:07:27,600 --> 02:07:28,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2374
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:31,200
Speaker 4: But he took a different turn in his career when

2375
02:07:31,240 --> 02:07:34,240
Speaker 4: he realized I cannot keep playing angry men who beat women.

2376
02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:36,080
Speaker 1: So respect to that he.

2377
02:07:36,360 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 2: Turned it around and then he is in Lethal Weapon.

2378
02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:42,160
Speaker 1: I yeah, he is. I was like, is that a joke?

2379
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,120
Speaker 1: I was like, I have no idea. I've never seen

2380
02:07:45,280 --> 02:07:47,720
Speaker 1: the little weapons, so I'm just like, well, and he's

2381
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:51,040
Speaker 1: also most iconically and Saw one.

2382
02:07:50,960 --> 02:07:53,720
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, one, And that's your most famous role. We

2383
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:55,000
Speaker 2: all can agree with that.

2384
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be the lead on the open Tanny

2385
02:07:58,760 --> 02:08:00,760
Speaker 1: Kloffer best remembered for Saw One.

2386
02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:03,440
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna give the final nipple to the song's

2387
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:05,200
Speaker 4: sister because if you you should just go listen to

2388
02:08:05,280 --> 02:08:06,920
Speaker 4: it on its own. It's a really it's a banger,

2389
02:08:07,400 --> 02:08:08,000
Speaker 4: just great.

2390
02:08:08,160 --> 02:08:11,800
Speaker 1: So good. I feel like diegetic movie songs are rarely good,

2391
02:08:12,000 --> 02:08:14,880
Speaker 1: and this one is so good. It's so good. It's great.

2392
02:08:15,360 --> 02:08:17,720
Speaker 2: Well, Ashley, thank you so much for coming back and

2393
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:21,240
Speaker 2: coming on for a big old discussion.

2394
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and come back anytime. Let's talk about the musical.

2395
02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:26,120
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

2396
02:08:26,200 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 2: What was the Igmar Bergmann movie?

2397
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:32,000
Speaker 4: Person per Yeah, I'll get you a whole list of

2398
02:08:32,040 --> 02:08:36,040
Speaker 4: Bergman movies. We can talk about Persona cries and whispers.

2399
02:08:36,320 --> 02:08:39,440
Speaker 4: Do someone like jam a piece of glass and their couch? Yeah,

2400
02:08:39,520 --> 02:08:42,160
Speaker 4: well we can maybe talk about it someday. He does

2401
02:08:42,280 --> 02:08:42,920
Speaker 4: not like women?

2402
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:44,320
Speaker 2: Oops?

2403
02:08:45,040 --> 02:08:49,120
Speaker 1: Sure does it? Does he not? Where can we find you?

2404
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:50,720
Speaker 2: Where? People? Yeah?

2405
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:54,560
Speaker 4: You can follow me at the Ashley Ray everywhere on

2406
02:08:54,680 --> 02:08:56,960
Speaker 4: the apps if you still do that, or listen to TV.

2407
02:08:57,040 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 4: I say with Ashley Ray my podcast. Wherever you do that,

2408
02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:00,480
Speaker 4: I talk about TV.

2409
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:02,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the best.

2410
02:09:02,880 --> 02:09:03,640
Speaker 2: It's great. Thank you.

2411
02:09:03,840 --> 02:09:06,760
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and sometimes Twitter is

2412
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:09,800
Speaker 1: still at Bechdel Cast. You can also follow our Patreon

2413
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:13,760
Speaker 1: ak maatreon at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where

2414
02:09:13,800 --> 02:09:17,360
Speaker 1: for five dollars a month you get two bonus episodes

2415
02:09:17,400 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 1: a month based around a hyper specific theme that we

2416
02:09:20,400 --> 02:09:22,720
Speaker 1: choose or let you choose. You get access to one

2417
02:09:22,800 --> 02:09:25,840
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty bonus episodes from the last six years

2418
02:09:26,000 --> 02:09:28,520
Speaker 1: of the Matreon, So sign up for that.

2419
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:31,120
Speaker 2: Wow, what a what a darn good special?

2420
02:09:31,320 --> 02:09:31,840
Speaker 4: What a deal?

2421
02:09:32,160 --> 02:09:32,720
Speaker 1: Truly deal.

2422
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:37,400
Speaker 2: And you can also grab our merch at teapublic dot

2423
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 2: com slash the Bechdel Cast and check out our link tree,

2424
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:45,400
Speaker 2: link tree slash Bechdel Cast for information about some possible

2425
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:46,720
Speaker 2: upcoming shows that.

2426
02:09:47,320 --> 02:09:52,000
Speaker 1: Big time We are doing big time maybe yeah.

2427
02:09:52,520 --> 02:10:00,880
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

2428
02:10:01,200 --> 02:10:05,040
Speaker 2: hosted by Caitlin Drante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman,

2429
02:10:05,320 --> 02:10:08,920
Speaker 2: edited by molaboord. Our theme song was composed by Mike

2430
02:10:09,080 --> 02:10:13,400
Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and merch

2431
02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 2: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

2432
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:21,480
Speaker 2: Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree,

2433
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:22,560
Speaker 2: slash Bechtelcast