Speaker 1: Hi, Hi, cat Ra Hi. What a whirl?
Speaker 2: Was that an echo? Is that my voice bouncing off
Speaker 2: the walls right back into my throat where it belongs.
Speaker 3: We were just like turning into the same person.
Speaker 2: A whirlwind of a weekend.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you had an amazing show.
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming. Two amazing shows. That's the Pantages
Speaker 2: in La and everyone came out. It was so much fun.
Speaker 2: I felt like I was I felt like my wedding.
Speaker 3: Everyone was there.
Speaker 2: I was at two nights of that though. The Haley
Speaker 2: party was twice as long as the show night. And
Speaker 2: then I had Phoenix on Saturday night and we're on
Speaker 2: the plane there and I said to Carla, I'm like,
Speaker 2: is there anyone coming backstage? She's like, not one single person.
Speaker 3: I was like, beautiful.
Speaker 2: We were in and out of there.
Speaker 4: We grabbed our tacos and left. I was like, let's
Speaker 4: get out all. Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah, there were
Speaker 4: a lot of friends of the show. There, a lot
Speaker 4: of people who have guested on the show, and it
Speaker 4: was wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my family came. I walked outside and said a
Speaker 2: lobby for the after party, and my aunt was there.
Speaker 2: She hates everybody she hates all social gatherings. She hates
Speaker 2: the public. The fact that she came out to my
Speaker 2: show and patages was so sweet. It brought tears to
Speaker 2: my eyes. All my cousins came, all my friends from
Speaker 2: Chelsea that my old show on Netflix were there. It
Speaker 2: was so fun, such a nice Oh, it was really great. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm coming this weekend, you guys. Tickets are still available.
Speaker 2: Cleveland is Friday night, Columbus is Saturday night, and Pittsburgh
Speaker 2: is Sunday night. All three nights of those still have
Speaker 2: tickets available, So if you're in the areas, come to
Speaker 2: my show.
Speaker 3: Very exciting. Yeah, it's a fantastic show.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, so fun to perform.
Speaker 2: I'm having the best time on the road. It's a
Speaker 2: big party.
Speaker 3: How's your energy level this tour?
Speaker 2: It's good. I mean, as long as I have a
Speaker 2: day where I can Just like last night, I went
Speaker 2: to bed at around seven, I went to the Angel
Speaker 2: City soccer game then so fun. Yeah, with Glenna Doyle
Speaker 2: and Abbey and I brought Jamie makeup and we all
Speaker 2: went and it was fucking awesome. They won. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: now they're going to the championships. Or the playoffs or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know soccer jargon, but it was really fun
Speaker 2: to be there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all my lesbian friends have like season passes to that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all the lesbians are get down to get me.
Speaker 2: They know that it's a matter of time before I
Speaker 2: transition into a lesbian and that I make my way
Speaker 2: over to that world. I told them, like, I still
Speaker 2: have like at least one hundred men left to exhaust
Speaker 2: before I make a commitment, but clearly I'm on my way.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're just waiting exactly exactly, waiting patiently.
Speaker 3: Incredible. So our guest today is kind of everywhere right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, she's everywhere, and now she's here. Her
Speaker 2: name is Jada Pinkett Smith and her book is called Worthy. Okay,
Speaker 2: well we have lots to cover on this topic because
Speaker 2: I just read this book in one day and everybody
Speaker 2: is going to want to get their hands on it.
Speaker 2: It's called Worthy by Jada Pinkett Smith and it is
Speaker 2: her Well, it's her life story. And I have learned
Speaker 2: so much about you that I did not know, And
Speaker 2: I'm like, how did I not know that? And I
Speaker 2: was like, well, I guess you don't know these things
Speaker 2: about everybody. You know, you don't know everybody's per most
Speaker 2: personal things. And but I think let's start at the beginning.
Speaker 2: Because you grew up in the hood. Yeah, well partly
Speaker 2: partly in the hut. Yeah, well you grew towards the hook.
Speaker 1: I grew Yeah, it was like part of my life.
Speaker 5: I think once I turned about thirteen and my grandmother
Speaker 5: passed and it was just me and my mom, and
Speaker 5: that's when things took a turn.
Speaker 2: Things took a turn. Yeah, your mother for you, yep.
Speaker 2: And your dad rob sul rop suol robool Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: really ropsul, but he would say rough stool rub school. Okay.
Speaker 2: But I had no idea that you grew up in
Speaker 2: that environment that you were a heroin dealer.
Speaker 1: No, it was cocaine.
Speaker 2: Oh, it was cocaine.
Speaker 1: It was cocaine. My mother was a heroin addict. But
Speaker 1: I was selling cocaine.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 2: I was kind of hoping it was a heroin dealer.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why, probably because I once dated a
Speaker 2: heroin dealer and I was confusing the two. But okay,
Speaker 2: so you were a cocaine dealer and that was what age?
Speaker 2: What age were you when you did.
Speaker 5: That from about fifteen to seventeen, and that was a
Speaker 5: way for you to make things right in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2: You were being pretty neglected at home, right, and you
Speaker 2: were just basically a survivalist, but not even a survivalist.
Speaker 2: You you were into that lifestyle of living there, like
Speaker 2: you wanted to stay in Baltimore. You were going to
Speaker 2: the Baltimore School of Arts Arts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to Baltimore School for the Arts. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so talk to me about the headspace of
Speaker 2: that little girl.
Speaker 5: Well, she, as you can see, she was living many lives.
Speaker 5: And I think for me at that particular point of time,
Speaker 5: considering like where my mom was, like, I had no
Speaker 5: idea if she was gonna make it or that, you know.
Speaker 1: And so for me it was.
Speaker 2: Talking about Gammy every ye you know, from red Table.
Speaker 5: To talk, and I just wanted to find a way
Speaker 5: to find my own security, find my own power, my
Speaker 5: own sense of worth, right right. And so I got
Speaker 5: some of that from going to Baltimore School for the
Speaker 5: Arts and being able to really kind of just be
Speaker 5: in this creat.
Speaker 1: Of world that I loved so much.
Speaker 5: But at the same time, I was like, yo, I
Speaker 5: need to make money, I need to have security, I
Speaker 5: need to have stability. And so I was also in
Speaker 5: the streets. So and then I auditioned for North Carolina
Speaker 5: School for the Arts and got in, got robbed, had
Speaker 5: some pretty bad too, pretty bad experiences that my mom
Speaker 5: found out about, and then she was like, oh, no,
Speaker 5: you're getting up out of here. You will be going
Speaker 5: to college because I wasn't expecting to go to school.
Speaker 5: I was like, no, I'm gonna stay in Baltimore and
Speaker 5: I'm going to try to be a queen pin.
Speaker 2: And you wanted to state you that's what you wanted
Speaker 2: to pursue, and that state of mind, you were like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to make it here and do what these
Speaker 2: guys on the streets are doing as a woman, because
Speaker 2: you were a tough ass bitch. Yeah, and you weren't
Speaker 2: to be fucked with, and you believed that you could
Speaker 2: do that. I did, and you did do it for
Speaker 2: a while, for a moment, until I got.
Speaker 1: A little till it got a little dicey.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a couple of stories in this book where
Speaker 2: she was really very close to while probably getting shot,
Speaker 2: losing or losing your life. But I love the juxtaposition
Speaker 2: of being that talented because everybody knew you were talented
Speaker 2: at that age. People were spotting your talent, and it
Speaker 2: was came easily to you.
Speaker 1: I would say it did.
Speaker 2: It came easily, whether it was dancing, acting. Maybe the
Speaker 2: singing wasn't as easy.
Speaker 6: The singing wasn't as easy, for sure, But to get
Speaker 6: to get you know, recognized for that at an early
Speaker 6: age while also having this kind of other side, you know,
Speaker 6: it's it's very human the story, thank you.
Speaker 2: And it's and it's not one dimensional at all, which
Speaker 2: is the way really all of our true stories are.
Speaker 2: So you go from the Baltimore School for the Arts,
Speaker 2: I think, right, and then a mentor of yours kind
Speaker 2: of basically made you audition for this university in North Carolina.
Speaker 1: Donald Hicken.
Speaker 5: He was my theater He was the theater department head,
Speaker 5: and he was like, you need to go and audit.
Speaker 5: Because I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to
Speaker 5: North Carolina, Like that's just not happening.
Speaker 1: He's like, listen, you're going to go in here audition.
Speaker 1: This is going to be good for you.
Speaker 5: And so I went in and I got accepted, and
Speaker 5: you know, even once I got accepted, I was still
Speaker 5: like I'm not going, you know. And then life took
Speaker 5: a turn at my mother. Even though my mother had
Speaker 5: her drug abuse problems, her substance abuse problems, when it
Speaker 5: was really time for her to step up, she always
Speaker 5: seemed to find a way to do that. And she
Speaker 5: was not taking no for an answer about getting me
Speaker 5: out of Baltimore once she found out that I had
Speaker 5: been dealing drugs and I almost lost my life and
Speaker 5: she was like you're getting up out of here. I
Speaker 5: don't care what you say.
Speaker 2: Mmm. And then there's a really poignant story in the
Speaker 2: book without giving away all of the book, but these
Speaker 2: are just such rich stories in here, like it's such
Speaker 2: a full life that you've led, right. And there's a
Speaker 2: point in the story in the book where she calls
Speaker 2: her mom after a year of school and you're like
Speaker 2: fuck this shit, Like I got this. You have two choices.
Speaker 2: I can either become a lawyer and go to law school.
Speaker 2: I'm going to Hollywood and I'm going to try and
Speaker 2: make it happen.
Speaker 7: And she's like, get your ass to Hollywood.
Speaker 1: She sure was yup.
Speaker 5: She flew out with me to get me set up
Speaker 5: in La.
Speaker 2: It's so funny. I have like there's a similar When
Speaker 2: I was nineteen years old, I went to a year
Speaker 2: of community college, or sorry, a semester of community college,
Speaker 2: and I was a hot mess as a teenager. My
Speaker 2: parents were just sick of me, and I remember after
Speaker 2: one semester, I said to them, I go, I just
Speaker 2: think this is a waste of everyone's time. I said,
Speaker 2: I think it's time for me to go to California.
Speaker 2: My father goes, please go, Please get away from us
Speaker 2: and go right, And once you get away from the
Speaker 2: people that you have taken for granted or you feel
Speaker 2: have mistreated you or haven't been available to you, that
Speaker 2: is the first time you gain appreciation for that kind
Speaker 2: of familial love.
Speaker 1: Absolutely right, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Another fascinating thing about this book is your relationship with
Speaker 2: Chupac from the age of fourteen. YEPM and you guys
Speaker 2: were friends for the rest of his life.
Speaker 7: Yep.
Speaker 2: And close friends, really close friends. And there were a
Speaker 2: lot of rumors that you guys were a couple. But
Speaker 2: that's not true.
Speaker 5: That is so not true. As you could see from
Speaker 5: the book, that was not true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like he wanted to be a couple. More.
Speaker 2: It's funny though, because when you talk about your relationship
Speaker 2: with him, of course, when you're reading about you know,
Speaker 2: a man and a woman coming of age at that time,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, there's got to have something romantic happening.
Speaker 2: And you even say in the book that you tried,
Speaker 2: like you tried to kiss him, and I was like,
Speaker 2: this is not.
Speaker 1: For both of us, right, for both of us, that's
Speaker 1: the thing.
Speaker 5: And I think, you know, even in that moment in
Speaker 5: the book where he thinks he wants to marry me,
Speaker 5: I think it was just based out of a really
Speaker 5: extreme circumstance because he was at Rikers and he was
Speaker 5: a He was in a really bad way, and he
Speaker 5: knew I was a rock for him, and I think
Speaker 5: at that time he just really needed a tether.
Speaker 1: But I promise I tell everybody, as soon as he
Speaker 1: would have walked out of those gates, he would have
Speaker 1: divorced my ass. For sure. He did not want me
Speaker 1: as a wife.
Speaker 2: But you were thinking about it.
Speaker 5: I was because I really felt like, well, maybe this
Speaker 5: is something I should do to get him through time.
Speaker 5: He wanted somebody to do time with him, and I
Speaker 5: was going to do time with him, you know, I
Speaker 5: was going to do that time with him, but I
Speaker 5: was like, man like, and then I asked him, I
Speaker 5: was like, psychological wife, conjugal wife, like what And he
Speaker 5: was like, nah, like you're gonna be my wife?
Speaker 1: Like I was like, now, Pagna, you know this is
Speaker 1: not gonna work. I was like, I can't do that.
Speaker 5: I'm not no.
Speaker 1: And so we worked through that.
Speaker 5: We got through that passage and you know, brought it
Speaker 5: back to where it needed to be.
Speaker 2: And what are your some of the words that you
Speaker 2: would use to describe.
Speaker 5: Him, Oh, man really passionate, very charismatic, and he really
Speaker 5: wore his heart on his sleeve.
Speaker 1: He's really a deeply feeling person.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm really highly sensitive, you know, And I think
Speaker 5: that probably is the part that got overlooked a lot because,
Speaker 5: you know, his public persona a lot of times you
Speaker 5: would see him, you know, depicted as this like rageful angry.
Speaker 1: But that just had to do with like he had that.
Speaker 5: Existential heartbrokenness that we all kind of suffer from, and
Speaker 5: he just, you know, he had a difficult time dealing
Speaker 5: with what is what was you know, the suffering of
Speaker 5: people and the unfairness of life and those kinds of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fascinating to hear about all of the different
Speaker 2: seminal relationships that you've had with all of these people
Speaker 2: kind of and it was something I loved reading about
Speaker 2: particularly was the acknowledgment from people like heroes that you
Speaker 2: looked up to as soon as you came on the
Speaker 2: scene in La that knew like this girl's got it,
Speaker 2: like Debbie Allen.
Speaker 1: Debbie Allen Number one.
Speaker 2: Great story in the book about Debbie Allen the meeting
Speaker 2: Jada an audition for a role and that you know
Speaker 2: you didn't weren't right for, but she's like, forget about that,
Speaker 2: You're so special, Like I'm going to write you a role.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: She made me a series regular in the Room and
Speaker 5: then created Lena James from the Story of my Life.
Speaker 1: She was like, tell me about your life, and so.
Speaker 5: I told her about my background and then she created
Speaker 5: the character Lena James.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool, right.
Speaker 2: It's just cool to also be recognized at such a
Speaker 2: young age because you came here as such a young girl,
Speaker 2: you know, as did I remember that feeling of like
Speaker 2: you don't know what you're going to do, but you
Speaker 2: know you're going to do it. I just don't know
Speaker 2: how it's going to happen. Mm hmm, right, Like it's
Speaker 2: like a bowling ball. Like I say this a lot.
Speaker 2: If there's a bowling ball moving in a direction, you
Speaker 2: better get out of the way because it's going right.
Speaker 2: And then so you came to La and Tubac was
Speaker 2: already here when you got to La.
Speaker 1: He came out before, he came out before me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so he was up north California, but he
Speaker 5: would come to La a lot because I was there,
Speaker 5: and so we were rising together. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And how is his relationship when you married Will? Did
Speaker 2: they get along? Did they have a cute relationship or not?
Speaker 5: Well, by the time he was already gone, Oh he was. Yeah,
Speaker 5: he was gone when I married Will. Oh, I see, yeah,
Speaker 5: so but he.
Speaker 1: When I started dating Will.
Speaker 5: What's funny is that you know, Plack always has something
Speaker 5: to say about whoever I was seeing always, And how
Speaker 5: I know that he had approval of Will was because
Speaker 5: he didn't say anything. He didn't say nothing, right, And
Speaker 5: so I really do believe that as time went on,
Speaker 5: if he had not been murdered, then they would have
Speaker 5: been friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how is your relationship with Tupac's girlfriends?
Speaker 5: I always welcome. I was like, I'm a love who
Speaker 5: you love. Yeah, we don't keep it right there, I'm
Speaker 5: a love who you love. So I never had any
Speaker 5: problems with any of his girlfriends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, never, Yeah, it's usually the other way around.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, you know, nobody was ever good enough.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's just like, ah that he's a clown,
Speaker 5: you know. You know, listen, worry about your life.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you moved to California. You have which ext
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many experiences to delve into.
Speaker 2: There is a very very poignant multiple chapters about your
Speaker 2: Ayahuasca journey. Yeah, there's a lot of really beautiful stuff
Speaker 2: in there about both of your children, Jaden and Willow,
Speaker 2: and what it means to you to be a mother.
Speaker 2: And I think you've made some really brave choices as
Speaker 2: far as being able to let go of a baby
Speaker 2: that is not even fully you know cooked, how the
Speaker 2: traditional kind of perspective of motherhood is, especially in this country,
Speaker 2: and how we look at it, that there's a lot
Speaker 2: of sense that people children feel like parents property, like
Speaker 2: like the parents own their children, and that they decide
Speaker 2: what's best for them. And I'm your and you need
Speaker 2: to listen to me, and that's it. Just shut up,
Speaker 2: and what you're introduced in this book is a completely
Speaker 2: different way to look at these things. That these children
Speaker 2: are your teachers, That these children deserve their independence and
Speaker 2: their will, and that you need to listen to even
Speaker 2: someone who's eight years old when they tell you they
Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable doing something, Absolutely you must. So talk
Speaker 2: to me a little bit about that. And how do
Speaker 2: you think you became that way?
Speaker 5: I think it was a combination of how I was
Speaker 5: raised in my grandmother's house and in my mother's house. Honestly, now,
Speaker 5: being that my mother had problems with substance.
Speaker 1: Abuse, I had a lot of freedom.
Speaker 5: So within that freedom, I got to see the importance
Speaker 5: of having that freedom to be able to self actualize
Speaker 5: at such a young age. Now, in that I definitely
Speaker 5: needed some bumper rails, right, And so I took a
Speaker 5: little bit of what I discovered with how my life
Speaker 5: was with my mother, and I just put in some.
Speaker 1: Safety guards with my kids, right.
Speaker 5: And then I just thought about how my grandmother nurtured
Speaker 5: certain aspects of myself, Like she saw certain things in
Speaker 5: me and she was like, oh, you're athletic, I'm gonna
Speaker 5: put you in tennis. Oh, you like to dance, ballet, Okay, piano.
Speaker 5: So she was always there to just kind of cultivate.
Speaker 5: She kept me busy, and she wanted me to be
Speaker 5: what she.
Speaker 1: Would call well rounded.
Speaker 5: And so I just looked at all of these components,
Speaker 5: you know, and then I thought about at different stages,
Speaker 5: what did I need at this stage when, like Jaden
Speaker 5: at fifteen, I was on my own at fifteen.
Speaker 2: Right, So let me just to contextualize this. So there's
Speaker 2: a part of the book where Jaden says to his
Speaker 2: mom and I think Willa was in the room at
Speaker 2: the same time, right, and says, in a very prophetic way,
Speaker 2: I need to feel the rain. I need my freedom.
Speaker 2: It's time for me to yo go.
Speaker 5: Right. When he said I need to feel the rain,
Speaker 5: I knew exactly what that meant. I knew exactly what
Speaker 5: that meant, and I knew he was going to be
Speaker 5: down the street.
Speaker 2: And that is chilling to think about as a mother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a devastating day.
Speaker 5: I just remember being so heartbroken, but I knew, I knew.
Speaker 5: I was like, if you don't let him go, now,
Speaker 5: this is going to be a bigger problem than if
Speaker 5: you do. And he came, you know, like a year later,
Speaker 5: year and a half later, and he's like, I get it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's like he had an opportunity to take on his life,
Speaker 5: take on his responsibility and got to see everything that
Speaker 5: we were trying to do as parents. He was like, oh, man,
Speaker 5: I understand why you did this and why you did that.
Speaker 1: Da da da da.
Speaker 5: But he grew up in such a beautiful way. And
Speaker 5: he left at fifteen and never came back.
Speaker 2: And so when he came back a year and a
Speaker 2: half later, he just said, I got it, but I'm
Speaker 2: still yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, he says, basically he had an aha.
Speaker 5: You know, it was like him just kind of giving
Speaker 5: us our flowers as parents, you know, I mean we
Speaker 5: were talking to him every day and so, but just
Speaker 5: that AHA moment that he had when he was about
Speaker 5: sixteen and a half. Because I knew if you let
Speaker 5: him go, now, Jada, he's going to come back faster,
Speaker 5: not meaning come back into the house and live.
Speaker 1: I knew that was over.
Speaker 5: He was never going to come back in that way,
Speaker 5: but I knew that psychologically he was going to come back.
Speaker 1: So I say all that to say that.
Speaker 5: I learned quickly that each child has to be honored separately.
Speaker 5: There's not like this cookie cutout way in which like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is what a fifteen year old needs, this is
Speaker 5: what a fourteen year old needs. I would never let
Speaker 5: Willow leave the house at fifteen. Ever, Yeah, she was
Speaker 5: not ready.
Speaker 1: Jaden was so.
Speaker 2: But what if Willow had decided after that that she
Speaker 2: wanted to leave the house.
Speaker 5: That would have been a different situation, right, because how
Speaker 5: can you say one no to want I mean yes
Speaker 5: to one and then know to the other. Because there
Speaker 5: was a sense of responsibility that Jaden had and maturity
Speaker 5: in that way that Willow hadn't developed yet. Now she
Speaker 5: had her own maturity in different ways, you know, in
Speaker 5: other areas, but just not that. And so as a
Speaker 5: parent you have to be able to look at those nuances.
Speaker 5: It's not about and I used to tell because we
Speaker 5: talked about this Willow and I. It's not about oh,
Speaker 5: Jaden gets to do this and you don't. It's like
Speaker 5: whoa I'm looking at as a parent? What you have
Speaker 5: more capacity for?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Where are your skill sets?
Speaker 5: You know, I'm not going to put you in a
Speaker 5: place that I feel as a parent that you might not.
Speaker 1: Be ready for.
Speaker 5: Jaden has happened to be ready for that particular Yeah.
Speaker 2: There's a cute little passage in the book too, where
Speaker 2: she talks about dropping Jaden off at school for the
Speaker 2: first time, and he said, Mommy, why would you ever
Speaker 2: drop me off with all these people who don't even
Speaker 2: love me?
Speaker 7: Yeah, and she's like, oh, fuck, woa fuck, Well, how
Speaker 7: am I supposed to answer that? So she says she
Speaker 7: drops them off at school and sits in the parking
Speaker 7: She goes, you know what, I'm going to sit here
Speaker 7: and wait until noon until you get out.
Speaker 2: So she'd go there and wait for him to get
Speaker 2: out of school. Mean, mom my, parents weren't dropping me
Speaker 2: off or picking me up to like see you exactly?
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No, I was like, you're right, somebody's always going to
Speaker 5: be here who loves you. I'll drop you off and
Speaker 5: I will sit in this parking lot until twelve o'clock
Speaker 5: every day.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, so crazy. It's just so crazy to think
Speaker 2: kids can grow up that quickly. It's so bittersweet the
Speaker 2: heartache that it causes.
Speaker 1: Yeah lots.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, on a more serious note, you talk a
Speaker 2: lot about different times life where you felt depressed, overwhelmed,
Speaker 2: unable to function, and sometimes even suicidal. This book is
Speaker 2: so revealing. This is exactly what a memoir should be.
Speaker 2: And I think it's going to help so many people
Speaker 2: because to know that someone like you and of your
Speaker 2: stature and all of these wonderful things that life looks
Speaker 2: like it is is still hard. Yeah, it doesn't make
Speaker 2: it easy because you're rich and famous.
Speaker 1: Right, and that's the truth.
Speaker 5: And you know, I think at that time when I
Speaker 5: was when I went through one of the darkest periods
Speaker 5: my fortieth year, when I was really suicidal, I really
Speaker 5: had so much shame because I felt like everybody else,
Speaker 5: I was just like, what.
Speaker 1: Is wrong with you?
Speaker 5: Because my life on the outside wasn't matching how I
Speaker 5: was feeling on the inside. And it was so funny
Speaker 5: because my mother just finished the book and she's like,
Speaker 5: I can't.
Speaker 1: Believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every
Speaker 1: morning crying.
Speaker 5: And I said, well, I thought it was enough for
Speaker 5: me to just talk about me looking for a cliff
Speaker 5: to drive off of.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5: And she said, I got even in reading this memoir.
Speaker 5: She said, I'm just getting so much understanding. She was like,
Speaker 5: because everybody knew I was unhappy, but nobody knew why,
Speaker 5: including myself. Right, so everybody's looking at me like, what
Speaker 5: is your deal? You know, why can't you why can't
Speaker 5: you be happy?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 5: And so that just shut me down even more, and
Speaker 5: I just got into a darker, darker space to the
Speaker 5: point I was just like, I want out.
Speaker 1: I just didn't see a way out.
Speaker 5: I thought I was inherently broken, inherently something was wrong
Speaker 5: with me.
Speaker 1: And then, by the grace of.
Speaker 5: God, you know, little Guru Jaden, you know, not even
Speaker 5: knowing the state that I was in, comes into the kitchen.
Speaker 5: He's like, you gotta listen to Moises and Matale and
Speaker 5: hear about their father's experience and right, And so, because
Speaker 5: my son knew I'm a seeker and like, you know,
Speaker 5: I love different experiences, so I go into the living
Speaker 5: room and I'm listening to Moisses and the Tale and
Speaker 5: I'm like, is your father in town? I'm like, can
Speaker 5: you call them so I can talk to them? And
Speaker 5: as soon as their dad I saw their father, I
Speaker 5: could just see the brightness.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is a different guy.
Speaker 5: And then I started talking to him about his experience,
Speaker 5: and I was like, I need this, I need this,
Speaker 5: And then the universe opened up an opportunity for me
Speaker 5: in oh Hi to be able to go and do
Speaker 5: aya about a month and a half later and changed
Speaker 5: my whole life. I got to see through the medicine
Speaker 5: the cycle of self hatred. Oh my god, yeah, deep,
Speaker 5: cycle of self hatred.
Speaker 2: Deep and so and yes, And because what you talk
Speaker 2: about is when you don't have the answers for why
Speaker 2: you feel this way, it's almost like you're burrowing a
Speaker 2: bigger hole within yourself. That's right, because without you know you.
Speaker 2: I love when people call it medicine ayahuasca because it
Speaker 2: is medicine and that's what it's for. The imagery and
Speaker 2: the sensation that you feel when you do ayahuasca can't
Speaker 2: be explained by anything else, like they're and these are
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's spiritual. It's like there's a spirit
Speaker 2: guide who's telling you. And you talk about all your
Speaker 2: different experiences in this book and how many I mean
Speaker 2: I think you've done it multiple times. I have tons,
Speaker 2: and you get something new out of it each time.
Speaker 1: Every time, every time.
Speaker 2: And one of your very first experiences was so bad
Speaker 2: and dark that I was like, what, this bitch is crazy?
Speaker 2: And you went back and you're like, I think I
Speaker 2: need to stay at it for the next night, which
Speaker 2: was not even planned.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, because I felt like I was possessed. Let
Speaker 5: me tell you, my kids have been life savers.
Speaker 1: Literally.
Speaker 5: The only reason why I went back in is because
Speaker 5: I was like, whatever's on me, I can't take this
Speaker 5: to my children. That's the only reason why I went back.
Speaker 5: If I didn't have kids, I probably I don't even know, Chelsea. Honestly,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have had sometimes and I realized this in life,
Speaker 5: sometimes it's you're not your motivation and that's okay.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: There have been times when I've had to think about
Speaker 5: other people and most of the time my kids, and
Speaker 5: that particular time it was about my kids.
Speaker 1: And I went back and then I had.
Speaker 5: To go through yet another difficult night, but it brought me.
Speaker 2: To that space of resolve and light and that was
Speaker 2: much more peaceful. And then you've continued to use it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I use it. I well, right after that, I
Speaker 1: didn't do it for a year because it was terrified.
Speaker 1: I was like, if this is.
Speaker 5: What this experience is I don't want to do this
Speaker 5: ever again.
Speaker 1: I got through.
Speaker 5: I'm okay, thank you, I don't want to kill myself anymore.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for the healing.
Speaker 5: But then a year later I was like, I feel
Speaker 5: like I need to go back, and so I went
Speaker 5: back again. And then after that I started going often,
Speaker 5: just like every three weeks.
Speaker 1: I was just in the room, in the room.
Speaker 2: And do you prefer to have that experience alone or
Speaker 2: with other people?
Speaker 5: I did it for years by myself, with just me
Speaker 5: and a guide, and.
Speaker 1: I think I needed that, but now I really enjoyed.
Speaker 2: But then I think you needed it too, because I mean,
Speaker 2: look at the results. Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: It is medicine. It is so you did not kill yourself,
Speaker 2: Thank God, because you were able to survive these terrible
Speaker 2: bouts of depression, of self hatred, of self immolation, which
Speaker 2: I think so many people can relate to, and so
Speaker 2: many people feel like they're the only people in the
Speaker 2: world feeling that way. And that's what's so heartbreaking is
Speaker 2: that they're not alone, like no one listening. You're never alone.
Speaker 2: You know, you're not the only person going through things
Speaker 2: like this, and there are ways to survive, you know,
Speaker 2: and if it's not plant medicine, there are other ways
Speaker 2: to survive. You can pick up the phone and call
Speaker 2: a hotline. You can call a suicide hotline. You can
Speaker 2: call a family member, you can call someone who knows
Speaker 2: to care about you. Because I also have to remember
Speaker 2: that these feelings are never permanent. These are all temporary feelings,
Speaker 2: and they can feel like they are going to take
Speaker 2: control of you forever, but they will not. That's right, Okay,
Speaker 2: So moving along, what was your I want to know
Speaker 2: how did you come to the decision to write this
Speaker 2: book at this time in your life?
Speaker 5: Well, it was really twenty twenty one and on this
Speaker 5: journey to you know, self worth, Jay Shetty, who's like
Speaker 5: a brother to me, had been by my side and
Speaker 5: he's like, you need to write a book. And I
Speaker 5: was like, I don't fucking want to write a book.
Speaker 5: I don't want to write a book. And we got
Speaker 5: into it one day and I was like, you know what, Jada,
Speaker 5: You know, Jay's this is your brother. Just just think
Speaker 5: about why he might be thinking that this is something
Speaker 5: good for you to do. And you know, a couple
Speaker 5: of days later, as in meditation, I was like, oh man, wow,
Speaker 5: my journey from feeling unlovable to feeling lovable. That's a
Speaker 5: universal journey. Most of us are on that journey. And
Speaker 5: I was like, that's that's a worthy story. That's a
Speaker 5: worthy journey to share. And I felt like I had
Speaker 5: been through so much. I'd been through the gauntlet of
Speaker 5: like people saying all kinds of crazy stuff about me,
Speaker 5: and I felt like I could afford to really give
Speaker 5: a deep, honest exploration of my journey because I don't
Speaker 5: have the fear of being criticized or judged in a
Speaker 5: certain way. Because I feel like a lot of us women,
Speaker 5: our stories are still considered taboo to really tell the
Speaker 5: real deal, right, and we feel like that we're going
Speaker 5: to be dragged through the mud and that's not fun.
Speaker 5: I've already been dragged through the mud, so okay, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. So I want to offer this
Speaker 5: journey for those who need to be seen in a
Speaker 5: certain manner, who might be in a hopeless place, because
Speaker 5: I know when I was in a hopeless place, if
Speaker 5: there had been a story like this that I could
Speaker 5: just have some breadcrumbs, I could have oxygen. I'm like,
Speaker 5: I'm not alone. This person can see me. This person
Speaker 5: is showing me that I'm not the only This is
Speaker 5: not a unique experience that I'm having, and I don't
Speaker 5: have to have shame about it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And another reason what you're saying is striking me is
Speaker 2: because within this book, there have been many moments where
Speaker 2: the women in your life have come to you seeing,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it was at your fortieth or a
Speaker 2: different time, saying seeing that you weren't okay and actually
Speaker 2: stepping in and how meaningful that is, which is something
Speaker 2: that we talk about a lot on this podcast when
Speaker 2: people call in, is do I get involved? Do I
Speaker 2: say something? And a firm believer that the answer is
Speaker 2: always yes if you are especially if you are a
Speaker 2: woman and it's another woman, it doesn't even matter if
Speaker 2: you're close to her or not, because that's your ego,
Speaker 2: like just make sure every woman is okay. Like from
Speaker 2: women women, I see something's wrong? Are you okay? And
Speaker 2: the impact that that had on you, whether it was
Speaker 2: from very close friends or not so close friends, is
Speaker 2: you know, invaluable.
Speaker 1: It is and it's so important.
Speaker 5: I'm glad that you said, even if it's someone that
Speaker 5: you are not close to, you know, from women to
Speaker 5: women when we understand what this journey is like on
Speaker 5: this earthly plane, you know what I mean. And it's like,
Speaker 5: it's a universal journey. I don't care the color of
Speaker 5: your skin, what language you speak. We've got some universal struggles, right,
Speaker 5: And so I really I'm with you. I feel like
Speaker 5: that's part of what we're here to do as women
Speaker 5: is to help each other, right, and part of that
Speaker 5: is sharing our stories, you know, and being able to
Speaker 5: use the wisdom that we collect along the way to
Speaker 5: help others, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's a lot of wisdom in the book.
Speaker 2: And you talk very openly about your marriage with Will
Speaker 2: and you guys are when you got married you made
Speaker 2: a very sacred value to each other that divorce wasn't
Speaker 2: an option.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was like because as you read, you know,
Speaker 5: I wasn't interested in having like the wedding because I
Speaker 5: was like, first of all, we're doing something really serious here.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't have I don't have time for
Speaker 1: a wedding.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: You know, this is so fucking serious. Why do we
Speaker 1: have This is a serious shit.
Speaker 5: I don't have time to be thinking about bridesmaids and
Speaker 5: what fucking dress I'm wearing.
Speaker 1: I'm about to fucking commit myself to you forever and.
Speaker 2: I'm about to have a baby.
Speaker 5: Like this is not what I thought my life to be, right,
Speaker 5: And so I wanted to go to the mountaintop. I
Speaker 5: was like, look, we need to get with God and
Speaker 5: figure this out, Like this is serious. We got to
Speaker 5: commit to each other in a spiritual.
Speaker 2: Way, because you guys had a very spiritual connection from
Speaker 2: the time you met.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we did.
Speaker 5: And so when we were outside on that log in
Speaker 5: his mother's backyard and he was talking about a prenup,
Speaker 5: and I was just like, if we're gonna talk about
Speaker 5: the end at the beginning, just don't marry me. I'm
Speaker 5: not interested. I'm okay, I don't want it. And you know,
Speaker 5: he was like, I get it. He was like, I
Speaker 5: you know, I don't think we need a prenup. If
Speaker 5: you don't think we need a prenup, we don't need
Speaker 5: a prenup. And I said, I'm telling you we're gonna
Speaker 5: work through everything. That was my sacred vow that day,
Speaker 5: right and so, and he looked to me and he
Speaker 5: said okay. And so in that moment, for me, that
Speaker 5: was my mountaintop moment. That was like my moment with
Speaker 5: God saying we I am going to We're gonna work
Speaker 5: through everything, you know, And it's not about money and
Speaker 5: all of that. It's about that moment of making that
Speaker 5: commitment and that vow. And let me tell you it's
Speaker 5: it's not an easy vow to keep because ultimately, when
Speaker 5: you're talking about being with somebody forever, forever. I talked
Speaker 5: about it in the book, you're gonna go through that
Speaker 5: jungle together and you're gonna get to see what shows
Speaker 5: up what doesn't show up in one another. But that's
Speaker 5: what a marriage is, right. You're gonna have your honeymoon
Speaker 5: stages and then you're gonna.
Speaker 1: Have your hell stages.
Speaker 2: But it's just such a crack of shit that people
Speaker 2: don't talk about that when you're getting married.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because that's the problem, Chelsea. That's why I feel
Speaker 5: like the ceremony is not the way you should start
Speaker 5: a word, because it's setting you, it's setting up this fantasy. Yeah,
Speaker 5: And I knew my marriage was not gonna be a fantasy, right.
Speaker 5: I knew that from the gate. I didn't know then,
Speaker 5: but that I was just gonna run into my shit that's.
Speaker 1: Really what I was scared of.
Speaker 2: Well, I think so many of us believe that, like,
Speaker 2: we have our shit, we have our shit, and then
Speaker 2: some guy's gonna come along and you're like, I see
Speaker 2: your shit, and I'm gonna take care of your shit,
Speaker 2: and I don't worry about your shit. It's not shit
Speaker 2: with me, right, And it's like, no, it is. It
Speaker 2: is because it's ours.
Speaker 5: It's ours, and it's going to be really shitty. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's going to be really shitty at times. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wonder how many women would be able to sit
Speaker 2: and listen to that conversation before getting married, Like, just
Speaker 2: so you know, this isn't going to be twenty years
Speaker 2: of bliss, right, There are gonna be many, many moments
Speaker 2: of despair and disappointment.
Speaker 1: Yes, I wish, God, I wish. I don't mean to
Speaker 1: be a debute. Listen. Weddings are great. I want to
Speaker 1: start right, but I feel like.
Speaker 5: The marriage ceremony set up the way that it is
Speaker 5: now gives a really false impression of what marriage is
Speaker 5: going to be.
Speaker 1: You know, you have the white dress, you know, the
Speaker 1: princess of the day.
Speaker 5: It's a fairy tale and I'm like, yeah, that's not
Speaker 5: what you have moments of that, but a marriage.
Speaker 1: To me, and I've been learning along the way, it's
Speaker 1: really a holy path of purification.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: It's like there is nothing like an intimate partner to
Speaker 5: make you have to look at your stuff and clean
Speaker 5: it up, you know, for each person involved. And because
Speaker 5: it's in that intimate partnership where you really get to
Speaker 5: the nitty gritty, you really get to those buttons you
Speaker 5: know that are the deep.
Speaker 1: There is like a mine field.
Speaker 2: And you have to have two willing participants. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: somebody could be a seeker like yourself, and somebody could
Speaker 2: be a nonseeker and be like, I'm not interested in
Speaker 2: all of this, you know what I mean. I was
Speaker 2: just on vacation with some girlfriends in my Orca and
Speaker 2: one of my friends was telling me about her husband
Speaker 2: and she's like, he's seeking out all the stuff. He's
Speaker 2: seeking out all this stuff. I go, that's great, why
Speaker 2: don't you go with him and seek it out? And
Speaker 2: she's like, I have no interest in any of that.
Speaker 2: And I was like, but you're okay for him to
Speaker 2: go do it, right, And she's like, yeah, I just
Speaker 2: want him to go figure his shit out and I
Speaker 2: thought interesting because, like you know, you can have two
Speaker 2: people who are seeking and it can cause a lot
Speaker 2: of you know, it could be fractious, but you can
Speaker 2: also sometimes people just need to go and be on
Speaker 2: their own, yes, and then come back.
Speaker 5: That's right, and that I feel like in long term
Speaker 5: relationships that is an inevitable passage where you have to
Speaker 5: go on your own.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You talk about that in the book that you
Speaker 2: guys have been separated for many years. Yeah, six years.
Speaker 2: Well when you wrote the book, it was six years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: six years, six years at the oscars. You were separated
Speaker 2: six years at the Oscars, is what you said. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so but you're not divorced, no, and you have no
Speaker 2: plans to get divorced. No, So talk to us about that.
Speaker 2: I'm down with it. I think this is a great
Speaker 2: new way of thinking about marriage.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's new. They're not getting divorced. Part,
Speaker 1: that's new.
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, because in twenty sixteen I was definitely thinking
Speaker 5: about it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well twenty sixteen was when Trump was elected
Speaker 2: to I think a lot of people were thinking a
Speaker 2: lot of things. We'll just put that on him for now, right,
Speaker 2: But okay, so you were thinking about it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: but you didn't take the steps to do it.
Speaker 5: I didn't take the steps to do it never, you know,
Speaker 5: never sought a lawyer. But it wasn't that I wasn't
Speaker 5: thinking about it, because I was just like, all right,
Speaker 5: how do I do this? How do I uncouple consciously?
Speaker 5: I don't want to do it from a place of resentment,
Speaker 5: from a place of anger. I don't want to create
Speaker 5: just a messy bloodshed, right, And so I was really
Speaker 5: trying to figure that out, working on myself getting to.
Speaker 1: A place of like.
Speaker 5: Peaceful resolve between us, which took a lot longer than
Speaker 5: I expected, you.
Speaker 1: Know, several several several years.
Speaker 5: And then when Will finished Emancipation, a huge shit happened
Speaker 5: in him. I think that was a really difficult movie
Speaker 5: for him to shoot.
Speaker 1: A lot of stuff came up for him.
Speaker 5: And that was when he asked me to get back
Speaker 5: into some therapeutic settings.
Speaker 1: With him, and we started.
Speaker 5: Doing some deep work in a way that we had
Speaker 5: never done before. Then he got nominated and he was like, listen,
Speaker 5: there's nobody else that I want by my side during
Speaker 5: this time, you know, because we were still family, right,
Speaker 5: and he was like, you know, were you do this
Speaker 5: run with me?
Speaker 1: And I was like absolutely, of course, you.
Speaker 2: Know, And what was the like? So you guys were
Speaker 2: living separately and we were living separately.
Speaker 5: I had bought I had bought a house because I
Speaker 5: really needed talking about needing to go on your separate journey.
Speaker 5: I had gone on several separate journeys and just trying
Speaker 5: to get to a place of happiness within myself, place
Speaker 5: of peace and really making peace with what is, you know,
Speaker 5: just like trying to detox from a romanticized version of
Speaker 5: myself as well as the romanticized version of Will and
Speaker 5: a romanticized version of our togetherness. Because even though I
Speaker 5: might not have had the white wedding romantic version, I
Speaker 5: had to really come to the understanding that I had
Speaker 5: a romantic idea of what I wanted our connection to
Speaker 5: look like.
Speaker 1: I wanted this masterpiece of connection between Will and I.
Speaker 5: Now, how do you have a masterpiece of connection with
Speaker 5: someone else if you don't have it with yourself. And
Speaker 5: that's what I had to learn, really detoxing from the
Speaker 5: idea that it was his job to make me happy
Speaker 5: because I believed I sat here and I helped you
Speaker 5: get every fucking thing you wanted. You need to now
Speaker 5: help me get the dream I wanted, which is.
Speaker 1: Connection between us, damn it, you know.
Speaker 5: And I had to really recognize that that wasn't something
Speaker 5: he could give me even if he tried, because I
Speaker 5: wasn't willing to give it to really know, have an
Speaker 5: intimate relationship with myself and.
Speaker 1: Deal with my shit.
Speaker 5: And so in that six years period, that's what I
Speaker 5: had been doing. So now we're in these therapeutic settings
Speaker 5: and we're really doing some deep work, really deep work.
Speaker 5: And so when we got to the Oscars, we were
Speaker 5: in a really good place, you know, and doing this
Speaker 5: deep work together.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, well, I think you should talk about it,
Speaker 2: because I think people wonder what you were thinking and
Speaker 2: what I mean, it's in the book. You talk about
Speaker 2: it in the book. Yeah, I mean, so you don't
Speaker 2: have to get into it. But I think you were
Speaker 2: as surprised as anyone else.
Speaker 5: I was super surprised at first because he had been
Speaker 5: going back and forth to the backstage, and I was like,
Speaker 5: oh wow, when he got up. When Chris said what
Speaker 5: he said, I rolled my eyes because I knew when
Speaker 5: I first saw Chris's name as one of the presenters,
Speaker 5: I remember saying to Will, I was like, oh no,
Speaker 5: I was like, I hope he plays nice tonight. You know.
Speaker 1: But because Chris and I had buried our beef.
Speaker 5: You know, after twenty sixteen and that whole misunderstanding, he apologized.
Speaker 5: I apologized to him. We were in a good place.
Speaker 5: I hadn't spoken to him since, and but I just
Speaker 5: kept thinking. I was like, ah, he's not gonna be
Speaker 5: able to help himself, you know. And I just had
Speaker 5: this like my bubble guts, bubble guts, And so Will
Speaker 5: was going back and forth backstage, and then when Chris
Speaker 5: said what he said, I looked to Will as to say, you.
Speaker 1: Believe that shit right? And I wasn't.
Speaker 5: Upset about what Chris said about me, because I'm gonna
Speaker 5: be okay.
Speaker 1: It was the idea of I had known.
Speaker 5: So many horrible stories about young people who had committed
Speaker 5: suicide because they had alopecia, people who were suffering in
Speaker 5: silence and in shame because of alopecia, and I was
Speaker 5: just like, I was thinking about my alopecia community and
Speaker 5: how on this world stage it was okay to make
Speaker 5: fun of alopecia.
Speaker 1: And then Will gets up. I'm like, is this a skit.
Speaker 5: He talked to Chris backstage and he didn't say anything
Speaker 5: to me. And then Chris, how he's reacting is kind
Speaker 5: of like, oh, here comes mister Smith. And I was like,
Speaker 5: oh shit, this is a skit. And then from where
Speaker 5: I'm sitting, when Will swung, it looked like Chris slipped
Speaker 5: the shot. I didn't know he had made contact, and
Speaker 5: especially after Chris was still standing, because I'd seen Will
Speaker 5: knock professional fighters down in the ring.
Speaker 1: He's a heavy hitter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well he's trained, Yeah, he's trained.
Speaker 1: He's a heavy hitter.
Speaker 5: So when he turned around and he started coming back downstage,
Speaker 5: I was like, oh no, this is not a joke.
Speaker 1: Something is wrong here.
Speaker 5: And now I can see that Will's not necessarily in
Speaker 5: present time. So he comes and he sits down and
Speaker 5: I just grab his hand and I look at him
Speaker 5: and I said.
Speaker 1: Are you okay.
Speaker 5: Chris comes down to the stage and he starts speaking
Speaker 5: to me again in the commercial break, at the commercial break,
Speaker 5: and he says, I meant no harm. And at that time,
Speaker 5: I was so confused and so disrupted because I'm really
Speaker 5: worried about Will, because Will has never done anything like
Speaker 5: this before. I don't know what's going on. I have
Speaker 5: no idea. I don't know what's happening with him, and
Speaker 5: I'm really worried about him. And I'm like, Chris, I
Speaker 5: can't do this right now, this is about some old
Speaker 5: shit it I can't. And then Chris, but Will's going off.
Speaker 5: He's going off again. So Denzel comes over and he's
Speaker 5: leaning on Will to just calm him down. Chris finishes
Speaker 5: his whole thing. Denzel Bradley Cooper take care of Will,
Speaker 5: which I'm so grateful for because I was just at
Speaker 5: a loss.
Speaker 1: I was at a loss.
Speaker 5: And then his publicist and my publicists come over and
Speaker 5: she's like, you know, Chris left the building. He's not
Speaker 5: going to press charges. And I was like, press charges
Speaker 5: for what? And she's like, Will hit Chris? And I
Speaker 5: looked at Will and I said, you hit Chris? Actually,
Speaker 5: you actually hit Chris And he said yeah, and I
Speaker 5: said okay, and that's when I knew.
Speaker 1: I said, all right, I.
Speaker 5: Might not have walked in here as your wife, but
Speaker 5: I'm leaving here as your wife because we're gonna have
Speaker 5: to get through this together, you know, yeah, you know.
Speaker 5: So that's I have to say that the oscars brought
Speaker 5: us closer, so you know, our dynamic has because you
Speaker 5: knew that he was in pain. I knew that he
Speaker 5: was in pain. I knew that he was going through
Speaker 5: a lot. I knew a lot that the public didn't know,
Speaker 5: you know, because we had been in these therapeutic spaces together,
Speaker 5: and so I knew I had to be byside. And
Speaker 5: just because you know, everybody wants to ride in the limo,
Speaker 5: that's real talk, right, and that's it was this moment
Speaker 5: when I really realized that next level of commitment and love,
Speaker 5: because this is about us walking each other home.
Speaker 1: This is about.
Speaker 5: Us helping each other heal, walking each other to those
Speaker 5: sacred places within as well as those sacred places without,
Speaker 5: where I had to get really deep resolved around that's
Speaker 5: what the journey's about, and that we are two people
Speaker 5: that came into this relationship at a very young age
Speaker 5: with a lot of trauma and thus not having a
Speaker 5: lot of information our traumas, how we acted our traumas
Speaker 5: out on one another, you know, and just learning how
Speaker 5: not to take that personally, and just realizing that we're
Speaker 5: walking each other home and that that's about being able
Speaker 5: to hold each other's hands in those dark caves with
Speaker 5: the Grimlins and the Gargoyles and you know, all of
Speaker 5: the monsters.
Speaker 2: Right when you say everyone wants to ride in the limo,
Speaker 2: not everybody wants to ride when there's no limo.
Speaker 5: Nobody wants to Nobody wants to go in the Haunted
Speaker 5: House on the Spooky Bus.
Speaker 2: And I mean it couldn't be more true. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean everybody knows that. I mean, when you're a celebrity that,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's great for celebration and then then when
Speaker 2: something goes wrong, you look around and you're like.
Speaker 1: Well fuck yeah, it's like everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So may I ask you what the status is
Speaker 2: now of you guys? What's your relationship?
Speaker 1: You're still married, We're still married.
Speaker 2: Got that going, Yeah, we got that going.
Speaker 5: And we've really been concentrating on just that healing component together, yeah,
Speaker 5: and taking it one day at a time, Chelsea, trying
Speaker 5: to figure it out, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, very very admirable, very at your honesty
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's very I'm really just blown away by
Speaker 2: it and I love it. I mean, it's just good
Speaker 2: for the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's what life is.
Speaker 5: That you know, this idea that these perfect picture you know, you.
Speaker 2: Know, you look at like from my perspective, I remember
Speaker 2: watching that night thinking what's going on with him? Like,
Speaker 2: that's not who he is? What's happening to him? He
Speaker 2: must be going through something either with you, with his person.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's never about another person only. It's about
Speaker 2: everything we've experienced through our lives, and it is our
Speaker 2: trauma revisiting us. And when it's not, you know, we
Speaker 2: become self actualized when we dig deep and find out
Speaker 2: what really happened and why our behaviors are.
Speaker 1: The way they are and why.
Speaker 2: You know. But I remember thinking that that's not who he.
Speaker 5: Is, right, which is why I understood why people thought,
Speaker 5: you know, with me putting out or assisting in that
Speaker 5: false narrative of me being this adulterous wife, which was
Speaker 5: not true, why people automatically thought Jade is the problem.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we skipped over all that, that whole part,
Speaker 2: because I just don't even think that's worth mentioning, because
Speaker 2: that's really not right. I mean, it is because it's
Speaker 2: part of your story, but that's not part. It's there's
Speaker 2: so much more there than that, and I think it's
Speaker 2: important to remember and recognize when people are in pain,
Speaker 2: because when people are acting in pain, that is not
Speaker 2: who they are. And I don't know Will personally, but
Speaker 2: I can imagine that he's a very very loving, decent
Speaker 2: human being, so loving, and I've heard that a million times,
Speaker 2: and so is Chris Rock. Chris, he really is.
Speaker 5: And that's why, you know, even when people ask me,
Speaker 5: you know about Chris and all this stuff he said
Speaker 5: on Netflix what have you, and I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 5: when people are hurting, that's.
Speaker 1: Not that's not they're true, that's not their true right.
Speaker 5: So that's not even Chris on that stage, honestly, Like
Speaker 5: with all the things.
Speaker 1: That he said, I you mean it in his special
Speaker 1: in his special right.
Speaker 5: And because I've had the opportunity to spend time with Chris,
Speaker 5: I've seen that part of Chris, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: And I know I know what his eyes looked like
Speaker 5: that night when he said to me, I meant no harm.
Speaker 5: And I know that to be true to this day,
Speaker 5: even with that special he I know he meant no harm. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you know right, No, He's just you know, it's just
Speaker 5: that hurt place in us. And you know, I've been
Speaker 5: there when I'm hurt things that I've done and things
Speaker 5: that I've said out of that hurt place.
Speaker 1: It's not me.
Speaker 2: What did Willow have to say about reading the book?
Speaker 5: She just you know, first of all, she's an avid reader,
Speaker 5: so she just finds me fascinating, which is awesome, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean, because she's like a cool kid,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: She finds you and a Gammy.
Speaker 1: Yeah she's at Yeah, she really does.
Speaker 5: So she's enjoyed it. She just can't believe the life
Speaker 5: that I've lived, you.
Speaker 1: Know, because I've told her stories.
Speaker 2: I can't believe that.
Speaker 5: You know, but then reading it open, it's like mom
Speaker 5: mad and you're out here worried about me doing the thing.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you.
Speaker 5: I didn't give you half the problems you gave gam
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 1: Like, so, yeah, she's had a good time. I'm reading it.
Speaker 2: Well, this podcast was supposed to take callers, but you
Speaker 2: know what, why don't we just leave this as a
Speaker 2: special episode. Yeah that's not because this was a very
Speaker 2: powerful conversation, and I think I think it is just
Speaker 2: such strong messaging. A you know, when you talk about
Speaker 2: a woman putting out all of her stuff, it's not
Speaker 2: done as much as it's done by men, and when
Speaker 2: it is done by men, it's not as emotionally at
Speaker 2: the surface. Like you're reading this book and you were like,
Speaker 2: it will bring your emotions to the surface on behalf
Speaker 2: of what it means to be a woman and all
Speaker 2: the pressure. But the reason why women don't do this
Speaker 2: is because when they write the truth like this, and
Speaker 2: so many times we're thought of as so fierce or
Speaker 2: so hard, you know, And when you go through the history,
Speaker 2: if you think of people like Belle Hooks or you
Speaker 2: think of Gloria Steinem and the way that they were
Speaker 2: perceived rather than just because they were truth tellers. It's
Speaker 2: so nice to see more women saying, no, this is
Speaker 2: my truth, this is the hard core nature of what's happening,
Speaker 2: and this is what's happened in my life. And to
Speaker 2: know how many lives each one of us has led
Speaker 2: you to know how crazy it is you know that
Speaker 2: you could be I mean from coming from Baltimore and
Speaker 2: doing all of the things that you've done, but having
Speaker 2: an inner compass and a north star in a sense
Speaker 2: that you're still here thriving, and you're sitting across from me,
Speaker 2: and you're beautiful inside and out thank you, And I
Speaker 2: just think it's a victory and I feel all women
Speaker 2: should be sharing their stories in this way and to
Speaker 2: be louder and prouder of who we all are. There
Speaker 2: you go, because it's not just men's stories that are important.
Speaker 2: This is how we help heel each other, and this
Speaker 2: is how we all kind of come together and give
Speaker 2: each other room to make mistakes and grow. And you're
Speaker 2: still there and you're still filled with love, you know, definitely,
Speaker 2: And amen to that, you guys. I mean, that's our
Speaker 2: podcast for the day.
Speaker 1: Love it, Love you.
Speaker 2: Okay. The book is called Worthy. You're gonna get it
Speaker 2: and you're gonna thank me, and it's by Jada Pinkett Smith.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay.
Speaker 2: Second shows have been added for those of you coming
Speaker 2: to see my new stand up tour, which you have
Speaker 2: to come because I'm having the best time. We added
Speaker 2: a second show into Cincinnati, Los Angeles, which is actually
Speaker 2: October thirteenth. There are still tickets for October thirteenth show
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles. We added second shows in Chicago, the
Speaker 2: Chicago Theater, Portland, Oregon, San Francisco. They're both almost completely
Speaker 2: sold out. Detroit, Michigan, and then we added a second
Speaker 2: show in Cincinnati in the daytime at five o'clock PM.
Speaker 2: I'm doing my first show because I don't have a
Speaker 2: night where I can go back, so we added a
Speaker 2: second show at five PM, and the original show is
Speaker 2: at eight PM. Original show is sold out. Second show
Speaker 2: tickets are available Cincinnati. I'm also coming to Cleveland on
Speaker 2: October twentieth, and then I'll be in Columbus October twenty
Speaker 2: first and Pittsburgh October twenty second. So those three shows
Speaker 2: I still have tickets available, And you can go to
Speaker 2: Chelsea Hamler dot com for other tickets and other information.
Speaker 2: And if you want to buy some of our merch,
Speaker 2: that's all available on Chelseahandler dot com. And yeah, guys,
Speaker 2: I'll see you on the road.
Speaker 8: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 8: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 8: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 8: and engineered by executive producer Katherine Law and be sure
Speaker 8: to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com.