1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of August eighth, nineteen ninety eight, 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: shots rang out in downtown Indianapolis. Casey Shane, a young 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: man who had been known to frequent a gay bar 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: in the area, was found dead in the driver's seat 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: of his truck. A young woman who was delivering newspapers 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: in the area witnessed the shooting. She described the gunman 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: to police as a dark skinned black man wearing a 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: black shirt and jogging pants with three white stripes down 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: the sides. Later, in a photo array and a live lineup, 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: she picked out Leon Benson. Leon lived a few blocks 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: from the shooting and was known to police as a 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: drug dealer. When Leon was arrested a week later, he 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: insisted he had nothing to do with the shooting. He'd 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: been in a building across the street that night and 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: dozens of people had seen him there. But at trial, 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: the young woman who had identified Leon from the lineup 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: did so again in front of a jury with convincing certainty. 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: She had seen the shooter with her own eyes, she 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: told the court, and she pointed at Leon Benson. But 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: kimbas Smith. Criminal justice advocate, formerly incarcerated individual, presidential clemency recipient, 22 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: and author and executive producer. And I'm sitting in today 23 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: for Jason Flahm, who is a good friend, longtime supporter, 24 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: and I'm excited today to be here with Leon Benson. Hi. Leon, 25 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: thanks for being on Wrongful Conviction. 26 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: Hey, thank you for having me. 27 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: And we also have uss Laura Basilon from the University 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: of San Francis GO School of Law, where she is 29 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: the director of the Criminal, Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: Clinic Programs. 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: Welcome, Laura. 32 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us. 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: And thank you so much for your passion and the 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: work that you do. Leon. So what was most interesting 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: to me about your case was that during that particular 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: time when you are arrested in nineteen ninety eight, there 37 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: was this big, you know thing already with the war 38 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: on drugs, but there was an influx now black and 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: brown people going into the system. And so my case 40 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: was a drug case, a crack case. And so I 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: know with my case, the prosecution withheld discovery information and 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: just to read all the many errors that transpired with 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: your trial, it just really struck a chur with me, 44 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: and not to mention. I used to live in Indianapolis 45 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: as well, so I'm really excited to just dive in. 46 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your life before all of 47 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: this happened. You know, where you're from, where you grew up, 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: anything about your family life. 49 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 4: You know, first and foremost, I'm from Flint, Michigan, and 50 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 4: I'm proud to say that. You know, Flint is a 51 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 4: blue collar community, you know, the underdog. You know, we 52 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 4: got that fighting spirit. I think I had a great childhood. 53 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: I mean I didn't know I was poor anything like that. 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: I was very creative growing up. I was able to 55 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 4: see a diverse crowd of people and culture. 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: At a young age. 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 4: And you know, I participated in sports, played basketball, you know, 58 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: things like that, you know, typical things of a kid. 59 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 4: So I did have an affinity for hip hop, but 60 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: I also started to have an affinity for you know, 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: the fast life, fast money, things like that. You know, 62 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 4: growing up, I was a typical kid who experienced gang violence, 63 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 4: experienced street violence, things like that. 64 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: You know. 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 4: I eventually moved to Detroit when I was seventeen and 66 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 4: and love Detroit. You know, I made my bones in 67 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 4: Detroit very early. You know, fair feeling Puritan. You know, 68 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: at this point, it seems like a very typical urban background. 69 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 4: As I reflect back on my life, I see a 70 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 4: lot of things that could have been a lot better, 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 4: but they could have been a lot worse too, you know. 72 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: And at the time that this incident happened, what was 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: going on in your life? 74 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: In August eighth, for nineteen ninety eight, I was twenty 75 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: two years old, and at the time, what was happening 76 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 4: for me in my life? It was like, you know, 77 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 4: the the hip hop stuff that was going on with Tupac, 78 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 4: you know, in Big Eie master P. 79 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: You know, this was the backdrop. You know. I was 80 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: in Indianapolis, Indiana. 81 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: I had come down there, not to sell drugs or 82 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 4: anything like that. I came down there as a professional painter, 83 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 4: home renovator. I was able to renovate like eighty homes 84 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 4: before I was laid off, and you know, unfortunately, you know, 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 4: I got back into the street life. So the area 86 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 4: I was in, it was a transit area in the 87 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 4: near downtown area Indianapolis. It was a lot going on. 88 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 4: It was very transit, very moving, and this was one 89 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 4: of the reasons that attracted me to this particular part 90 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 4: of the city of Indianapolis because it reminded me of 91 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 4: Detroit and Flynt. 92 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: And this was also the neighborhood where the crime took place. Laura, 93 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: can you tell us something about the area kind of 94 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: set the stage for what happened that night? 95 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: Indianapolis, the downtown part of it where this crime took place, 96 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: was fairly violent. It was known for a place where 97 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: you could buy and sell drugs, and as Leon also indicated, 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 3: was this interesting mix where this is the late nineties, 99 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: there was a lot of homophobia, and it was also 100 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: a place where people who were gay could go to bars, 101 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: including the Varsity Lounge and meet other people who were gay. 102 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: The victim in the case was twenty five year old 103 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: Casey Shane. He was from Plainville, which was middle class 104 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: su bourbon community about twenty miles outside of Indianapolis. What 105 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: was he doing downtown that night? 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: Our operating theory has always been that Casey Shane was 107 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 3: there that night in that particular part of Indianapolis because 108 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 3: he had visited the Varsity Lounge, and we know he 109 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: had visited that bar in the past because witnesses had 110 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 3: identified him as being there, and there's fairly strong evidence 111 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: at this point to suggest that he was gay, but 112 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: also closeted for the reasons that you might expect, which 113 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 3: is that very very few people, even in extremely liberal places, 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: which Indianapolis was not, were out of the closet at 115 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: that point in time. And so our theory is that 116 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 3: he went out that night and went to the Varsity 117 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: and had a few drinks and maybe had an interaction 118 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: with someone there and then maybe arranged to meet them 119 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: a couple of blocks away, which is where the actual 120 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: crime itself occurred. 121 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: With all of that, can you run down ionologically the 122 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: night of August eighth, nineteen ninety eight. 123 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was a fairly ordinary night in that 124 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 3: Leon was hanging out at a place called the Priscilla Apartments, 125 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: which was also known as Little Vietnam. 126 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 4: It was a building that I saw drugs out of, 127 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 4: and at this particular point of the night, I'd been 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 4: out there all day. So I came back to my 129 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 4: headquarters was this building, and I was in the back 130 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 4: of the buildings and by the steps, and I was 131 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: there with Timothy Gaither with a whole bunch of other people, 132 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 4: and you know, it was beer drinking, we smoking, and then. 133 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: Around a little after three o'clock in the morning, there 134 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: was this sound of gunfire. 135 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: And we heard shots like by popow paw, and it 136 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: was like they were so close. 137 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 3: And one of Leon's friends, miss Shirley, who had just 138 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: gone outside, saw what they believed to be this black 139 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: pickup truck parked kind of idling outside across the street, 140 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 3: and there was a man in the truck in the 141 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: front seat who wasn't moving, and there was a man 142 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: on the sidewalk who had fired multiple times into the vehicle, 143 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: then walked away, walked back and fired again, And this 144 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: was just a completely shocking, seemingly out of nowhere shooting, 145 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: and from Leon's perspective, all he heard were the shots. 146 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 4: You know, I stay in the back of the building 147 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 4: for maybe twenty thirty minutes, so I left out that 148 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,239 Speaker 4: back part of the door and went to my apartment 149 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 4: that was also in that direction, going like several blocks away. 150 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: And he kind of went about his evening and then 151 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: only later realized that it was this young white man 152 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: who was in the neighborhood and this was a really 153 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 3: big deal that he had essentially been executed in his car, 154 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 3: and the police just came in kind of swarmed into 155 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 3: the neighborhood and essentially shut down business as usual there 156 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: for a while because they were extremely intent on finding 157 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: someone to arrest. 158 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: Now went on about my business, and it was a 159 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: parade of police, you know, later on that day, and 160 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: I didn't come back to the area for several days. 161 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: I think there was a lot of pressure in this 162 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: case because the suspect who had been seen by witnesses 163 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 3: was black, the victim was white. I think that cross 164 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: racial nature put extra pressure on the police, and there 165 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: was just a lot of heat in the neighborhood in 166 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 3: the next couple of weeks, and a lot of, as 167 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 3: I said, pressure on the police to solve this crime 168 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: and really get someone in custody and charge them. 169 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: So Leon was nowhere around he heard the shot. What 170 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: led to this investigation? How did they even connect Leon 171 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: to the case? 172 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: Initially, the police were given leads that the person who 173 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: committed the shooting was a man named Joseph Webster, and 174 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 3: they had that information because there was talk in the 175 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: streets that it was Joseph Webster. And there was other information, 176 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: including from a man named Dakaria Fulton who had actually 177 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 3: witnessed the shooting, that Joseph Webster had committed that crime, 178 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 3: but it so happened that a young woman named Christy 179 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: Schmidt was there at the scene. She was a white woman. 180 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: Her reason for being in the neighborhood was that she 181 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 3: was delivering newspapers. So for your younger listeners back in 182 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 3: the day, you would put a quarter in a box, 183 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: you'd open the box and you would pull out a newspaper, 184 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 3: and Christy was the person who would stack those newspapers, 185 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 3: and that's what she was doing. She was in the 186 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 3: middle of doing that when she heard the shots and 187 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: she looked up and she saw the shooter. And her 188 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: initial description she said, he never got into the light. 189 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: And recall it's very dark to three o'clock in the morning. 190 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 3: She was one hundred and fifty feet away, a full 191 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: block away, and according to the lead detective, a man 192 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: named Alan Jones, when she was given different mugshots to 193 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 3: look at, she was given Joseph Webster's mug shot, and 194 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 3: she said that it was not Joseph Webster, and then 195 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: detective Jones showed her a picture of Leon and Christy 196 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: Schmid said that his face leapt off the page and 197 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: that she was certain that this was the person that 198 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 3: this was the shooter, and when that happened, the entire 199 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: trajectory of the case changed. 200 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: So you're saying this key witness pointed out Leon on 201 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: a lineup, despite having only seen the shooter in the 202 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: dark of night for a few seconds and from one 203 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty feet away. 204 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: And she said, initially to the detective on the scene, 205 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 3: Detective Leslie van Buskirk, he had a dark complexion. And 206 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: of course, as you can see all too clearly because 207 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: we're all looking at each other and these little zoom pictures, 208 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: Leon is very light complexed. There were a lot of 209 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: things that didn't make any sense about her description, which 210 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: also evolved and became increasingly specific and dramatic over time. 211 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: And I want to point out too that study after 212 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: study has shown the unreliability of cross racial identification. They've 213 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: been to be less accurate than just taking a wild guess. So, Laura, 214 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: was there anything else about the photo identification or the 215 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: lineup that seems sketchy. 216 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 3: Yes, there's a lot of opaqueness around that. They never 217 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: recorded that interview. We have no idea what detective Jones 218 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: said to her. We don't know if suggestive language was used. 219 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: We don't know how many pictures she actually looked at. 220 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: She does not have a clear memory of that at 221 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 3: the time. And so once they had this woman as 222 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 3: their witness, they built the entire case around that, which 223 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: meant essentially that they developed tunnel vision, and it really 224 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 3: became about propping up her account and making everything revolve 225 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 3: around and reinforce what she was saying. And every time 226 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 3: they received a piece of information that pointed away from 227 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: Leon and toward Joseph Webster, they would bury it in 228 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 3: the file and not turn it over. 229 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: And another thing, there was another witness who came forward 230 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: as well, a neighborhood guy named Donald Brooks who had 231 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: previously gotten into a beef with Leon, I think over 232 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: a drug deal gone sour. He told detective Jones that 233 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: the shooter was a guy named Detroit, which was Leon's nickname. 234 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: Donald Brooks later went back on a statement, but we'll 235 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: hear more about that later. Leon. All of this came 236 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: as a surprise to you because you were arrested on 237 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: the fourteenth of August, about a week after the shooting happened. 238 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: But originally you thought they were picking you up for 239 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: something else. 240 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 4: Right that day, I was still in my drug business 241 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 4: at the time. You know, my run in with authorities 242 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 4: was I got caught with possession of cocaine and so 243 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: I was on a misdemeanor of probation charge. So when 244 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 4: the police rolled up on me and Shirley now sitting 245 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 4: on the stool, they said I had a warrant for 246 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 4: possession of cocaine and probation violation, and you know, I 247 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 4: was arrested for that. We went to the police station 248 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 4: and they tained me to the wall in the room. 249 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 2: And I just fell asleep. I fell out and then 250 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: I was awakened. I don't know for how long. 251 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 4: It was cold as hell in there, and they came, 252 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 4: you know, Detective Jones and Van Buskirk, and it was 253 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: interrogate me. They told me like, hey, what do you 254 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 4: know about this murder? And instantly for me, I felt 255 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 4: like this is a game. I was nowhere around, no 256 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 4: murder scene. I got nothing to do with this stuff. 257 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 4: I just held my own But I thought it was 258 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: a joke that they had come to me about a murder, 259 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 4: and even saying that somebody'd seen me do it. 260 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: It was laughable. It was laughable. 261 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 4: My biggest mistake was not asking for a lawyer. You know, 262 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 4: twenty twenty, hindsight is always there. But you know, when 263 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 4: I start to understand the law, I realized that most 264 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,479 Speaker 4: people like me at the time, you know, twenty. 265 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: Two year old, uneducated. 266 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 4: Of course, you know, you had this notion that if 267 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 4: you say, get a lawyer, as if it's saying you guilty, 268 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 4: you know, the system say you're innocent, to proven guilty. 269 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: But it was quite the opposite. 270 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: For me. 271 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 4: It was guilty and to proven innocent. So I didn't 272 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 4: know this at the time. So I'm volunteering my location 273 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 4: where I was at, and I find out later that 274 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 4: you know, the detective, you don't manipulated, you know this information. 275 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,239 Speaker 2: You know he omitted. 276 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 4: Out of forty people in the building, you only can 277 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 4: find two people who said they didn't see me. And 278 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: I gave you at least ten twelve apartment numbers of 279 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 4: people that see me right right, and even worse, even 280 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 4: worse because I gave up that information. You know, I 281 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 4: wasn't thinking that people, you know, even in the building, 282 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 4: that they had seen me that day would probably be like, 283 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 4: I don't want to get involved. 284 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: I'm no, I didn't see nothing what you're talking about. 285 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: And they was right to feel like that, you know 286 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: at the time. 287 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 4: You know, so as bad as it sounds, you know, 288 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 4: a lot of us play this game with the system, 289 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: and I'm talking to my people that's out there, you know, 290 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: in the street life or whatnot. You know, on one hand, 291 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 4: we want to, you know, be out there doing our 292 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 4: thing in the dark, selling drugs, you know, moving the 293 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: things that we do. But then on the other hand, 294 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 4: we wanted to we still want to trust it. We 295 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 4: don't trust the police, but we want to trust the 296 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: police at the same time, you know, come save me, right, 297 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 4: you know. And I was in that type of frame 298 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 4: of mind at that time, and honestly, as a citizen, 299 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 4: whether whether I was an accused drug dealer, accused murderer, 300 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 4: accused robber, or whatnot, the law in the system supposed 301 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: to be impartial, and I was feeling like that, but 302 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 4: that wasn't the case. 303 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: But you did eventually hire a lawyer to represent you, 304 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: a man named Timothy Miller. How did he feel about 305 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: your chances? 306 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 4: So he came to me and I gave him a 307 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 4: little run down. He's like, yeah, yeah, man, I already 308 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 4: know that. Man, We're going to get this case dismissed. 309 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 4: You know, I just want twenty thousand. You might not 310 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 4: have to pay the whole thing because we'd get this dismissed. 311 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 4: Just give me a five thousand dollars retainer and you 312 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 4: know we would go from there. Man, hey, I absolutely 313 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 4: believe you right. 314 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: And then your trial was set for May of nineteen 315 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: ninety nine in Marion County Superior Court. So, Leon, what 316 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: were you actually feeling as the trial date was approaching? 317 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: You know, I had a lot of different emotions. You know, 318 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 4: I was very nervous. I had never been to trial before. 319 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: So at this point, me feeling like it was laughable 320 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: was over with. I'm going to trial. I'm like, oh, man, 321 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: oh they for real? You know. 322 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: So the state had a couple of our witness says 323 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: Christy Smith, who pitched you out of the lineup as 324 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: the shooter, and Donald Brooks, who had given your name 325 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: to the police. But at trial, Donald try to recant 326 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: a statement saying he didn't remember what he'd said to 327 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: the detective Jones, and he didn't remember seeing you near 328 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: the truck. And not only that, you knew that your 329 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: defense attorney had an acepisleeve. A man named Dakaria Fulton Laura, 330 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: can you tell us about Dakaria and why he was 331 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: so crucial to the defense. 332 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 3: Basically, Leon, Joseph Webster, and Dakaria were all drug dealers 333 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: in this area. They didn't work together, but they also 334 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 3: weren't enemies. He didn't really have anything against anybody. He 335 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 3: just told Detective Jones exactly what he saw. What had 336 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 3: happened was, he was in his apartment a couple blocks away. 337 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 3: He decided he wanted to go smoke a blunt. He 338 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 3: needed some rolling papers. He starts walking towards the seven 339 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: eleven and just by happenstance, he's literally across the street 340 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 3: and he looks and he sees Casey Shane's park car, 341 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: and he sees this man standing by the car, and 342 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 3: he watches this interaction go down, and he's pretty close. 343 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 3: He's much much closer than Christy Schmidt ever was. And 344 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 3: he recognizes the guy as Joseph Webster because he's wearing 345 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 3: these very distinct Adidas jogging pants block with three white 346 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 3: stripes down the side, but also because he and Joseph 347 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: Webster had run into each other earlier that day, and 348 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: Joseph Webster had been carrying a gun and showed it 349 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: to Takaria, who told Webster, you're a fool. You need 350 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 3: to put that gun away. And so it was this 351 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: very clear, strong identification from someone who knew everyone new Leon, 352 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: knew Joseph Webster and really didn't have any skin in 353 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: the game. And that statement did get turned over to 354 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 3: Timothy Miller like a. 355 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: Week before the first trial. 356 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 4: You know, Timothy Miller had finally given me the January 357 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine discovery supplement, and in this it had 358 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 4: Dakaria Fulton's statement, and. 359 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: I looked, I'm like, oh, man, this guy's saying he's 360 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: seen it, right. 361 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 4: I'm like, man, look hey, I'm not finn to go home, right. 362 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 4: So I go back to the sale block and I'm 363 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: showing them. I'm like, look man, I told man, look 364 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 4: they got the witness right there, like we giving each 365 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 4: other hog fight. Like, bro, man, you going home. So 366 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 4: I go to the first trial that Karly wasn't there. 367 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 4: Just the mere mention of him is what got a 368 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: hung jury. In my opinion, I was able to listen 369 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 4: from the hole and sell to the jury pool coming 370 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 4: out and them saying. 371 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 2: You know, where's that other guy on? They mentioned him? 372 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 2: But where is he at. 373 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: In the first trial, the jury hung sex to sex, 374 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 3: so it was a split work. There were six people 375 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: who did not think there was enough evidence to convict. 376 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 4: I say this all the time that my trial wasn't 377 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 4: a trial really of Leon Benson, but it was a 378 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 4: trial of urban America against America, because everybody in my 379 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 4: trial was people who were from the streets, people of color, 380 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 4: and our challenge was these people in us. 381 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: That's how I felt. It was a clear line drawn, 382 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: and I got the raff of a that energy. I 383 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: felt some nasty energy in there. It was nasty. 384 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 4: But when they came back and said a mistrial, I 385 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 4: wasn't necessarily relieved. I was glad not to hear a 386 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 4: guilty verdict, but I was figuring, like, oh, once we 387 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 4: get to Cary Fault, I'm out of here. 388 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: So then there was a second trial about six weeks later, 389 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: in July of nineteen ninety nine. 390 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: There were some major differences though, between the first and 391 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: the second trial, and I think maybe the biggest one 392 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: was that in the first trial, Timothy Miller called a 393 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: guy named Tim Gather who alibied Leon because he had 394 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 3: been sitting next to him inside the building when the 395 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 3: shots were fired, and so that really did establish an alibi, 396 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 3: and it's consistent with what Leon had always said. And 397 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 3: in the second trial, and we don't know why he 398 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: didn't call him. I think one of the things that 399 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: is completely frustrating and not explicable is that he never 400 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: called Fulton, not in the first trial and not in 401 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 3: the second trial. In the second trial, he also didn't 402 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: call Timothy Gaither And so Leon didn't have an alibi, 403 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: and once again he failed to meaningfully challenge Christy Schmidt's identification, 404 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 3: and this time the jury came back with a guilty verdict. 405 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 3: It was chaos in the courtroom. Leon was crying out 406 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 3: for God to help him. His family was crying. The 407 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: judge had to admonish them. The other side of the 408 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 3: courtroom was cheering. 409 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: You know, the Leon Benson was murdered in that courtroom 410 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: that day. That's what you witness. 411 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 4: You witness a murder, a legal lynchen and I understand 412 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 4: the victim's family, they lost a loved one. He can 413 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 4: never be returned. But I was I was deeply hurt 414 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 4: by the tears. Guilty in a tear, you know, I 415 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 4: started to feel and empathize with a deep level of 416 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: what slavery months looked like, you know, back in the day. 417 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I say it. 418 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: It was burnt. It was kind of burnt me. You know. 419 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 2: I went back to the hole and sell you know, 420 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 2: you know, I cried. 421 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 4: I was like, damn, like this is real, Like I'm 422 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 4: not gonna see my kids. 423 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 2: I was outcast, I was killed, and I was. 424 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 4: Buried with sixty one years of dirt to lie in 425 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 4: the tomb called prison. And I was shattered, you know, 426 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 4: so much so when I went to prison, I had 427 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: what you call delusions. 428 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: Of reprieve. 429 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: Something good's gonna happen. God is gonna open up the 430 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 4: door and for me. You know, while I was sitting 431 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 4: in prison, I wore my coat and my boots in 432 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: my bunk. 433 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 2: They say, man, why are you doing that? Because they 434 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: gonna come get me. Man, you're tripping. I was broken, right, 435 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: So that's the gist of it. 436 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: But I see it also as just not losing hope, 437 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: Like you had to believe that you weren't going to 438 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: spend sixty some years in prison. So I'm really interested 439 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: in hearing because I did six and a half years, 440 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: and it breaks my heart to know that you spent 441 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: twenty five years in prison, and so I just want 442 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: to hear about your strength and how you spent your 443 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: time in prison, especially two of ten years. At that time, 444 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: I believe I read you were in solitary confinement. So 445 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: how did you keep yourself strong? 446 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 4: So, you know, in order to see somebody at their 447 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 4: highest heights, you must know where they being that they 448 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: lower was lows. When I explained to you why I 449 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 4: was that I was shattered. I could have gave up, 450 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 4: but you can never give up on yourself. And you know, 451 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 4: when I came in, you know, I fought from day one. 452 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 2: I hit the law library. 453 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 4: I learned how to really read a case law and 454 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 4: understand it. And you know, I was eventually, you know, 455 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 4: put on solitary for participating in the prison riot that 456 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 4: I didn't even participate in. So I was left with 457 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 4: the question why me? And that question was answered, why 458 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 4: not me? 459 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: Why not me? You know? So I had to get 460 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: myself together. 461 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 4: I had to eat, eat some spirit full, you know, 462 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 4: eat some knowledge ful you know, every day. And one 463 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 4: of the things that I learned when I was in 464 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 4: solitary was acceptance, right acceptance. I had to accept that 465 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 4: I was in that moment. Those circumstances, not the stance, 466 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 4: the situation, but the things that are circumscribed around it. 467 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: And once I started to accept that I got to 468 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 4: go through this process, I became more creative with the 469 00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 4: tools around me. 470 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: So my jail cell wasn't no longer a jail cell. 471 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: It wasn't solitary no more. It became solitude. 472 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 4: It became a university, It became a healing center for me. 473 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 4: It became, you know, a public speaking stage, you know, 474 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 4: to the other solitary prisoners, the other eleven. So I 475 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 4: did the best that I can do in there, and 476 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 4: I impacted guys. My best moments in there was when 477 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 4: I showed guys who were illiterate how to read, how 478 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 4: to write, right, when I gave somebody that was broken, man, 479 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 4: I put them back together and gave them real confidence 480 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 4: and healing. See, they didn't see that when we was 481 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 4: on the inside. When I had the mic, it don't matter. 482 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 4: I'm the coldest ever, and I said it on record 483 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 4: because I made. 484 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: Them guys in their hope. That feel good, That feel good. 485 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: That's what I do it for it right now? 486 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: Right well, Leon, congratulations on your self growth while and 487 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: the shoe in solitary and then also your motivation for 488 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, when you were in general population to try 489 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: to help lift other young brothers that were in the 490 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: system as well, and I'm sure you'll continue to do 491 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: so while you're home. Laura, I want to circle back 492 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: to you a little bit and talk about some things 493 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: that went wrong in Leon's trials, both of them. When 494 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: you reviewed this case, did you see any evidence of 495 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: ineffective counsel or prosecutor of misconduct, you know that kind 496 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: of thing. 497 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 3: There was. There was a misconduct by the prosecutor, not 498 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: just by the police, and it was egregious in the 499 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 3: second trial. And that is also consistent with my experience, 500 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: which is that prosecutors tend to cross ethical and legal 501 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 3: lines when the case is very close and they're worried 502 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 3: that they're going to lose. And I think that's what 503 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 3: was going on with this prosecutor, whose name is Randall Head, 504 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: who later became a state legislator and is now prosecuting 505 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 3: people once again. But I think because the first trial 506 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: was so close and he almost lost, he was absolutely 507 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 3: determined that he was going to nail Leon this time, 508 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 3: and so he did this absolutely unlawful thing, which is 509 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 3: that when Donald Brooks, the second eyewitness, didn't say what 510 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 3: he wanted him to say, which is that he saw 511 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: LeAnn by the truck, and instead Donald Brooks started going 512 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 3: backwards and being contradictory to his initial statement Detective Jones, 513 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 3: rather than impeach him with the statement properly, he got 514 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 3: frustrated and he said, I want to read his entire 515 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 3: statement to Detective Jones into the record, all of it. 516 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 3: And this is a very long statement. It covered the 517 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 3: beef between Leon and Donald Brooks. It covered all kinds 518 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: of things that made Leon seem like a really bad 519 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 3: guy and were completely irrelevant. And then to compound what 520 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: he was doing, he said in closing argument that Donald 521 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 3: Brooks had gone sideways and backtracked because quote, snitches get stitches, 522 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: and that when Donald Brooks was in jail, he was 523 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: afraid for his life. He was afraid he was going 524 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: to be killed, and he implied not just that, but 525 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 3: that Leon or his family was going to kill him, 526 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: none of which was actually true. And what that's called 527 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 3: is basically evidence outside of the record, except it's not evidence. 528 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 3: It's a totally made up story. And he just injected 529 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: that into his closing argument, he made up a bunch 530 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 3: of effects once again to make Leon look like a terrible, 531 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: violent person, and Timothy Miller didn't object to any of 532 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 3: that either. 533 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: And Laura, when you heard about Leon's case, what stood 534 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: out to you? 535 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: There are really two reasons why my students and my 536 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 3: staff attorney and I took this case. And the first 537 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: one was that Leon has a very powerful advocate named 538 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: Shannon Coleman, who's a woman in Philadelphia who's really made 539 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: it her life's work to try to get people out 540 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 3: of prison who've been wrongfully convicted, and she reached out 541 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 3: and asked me to take the case. But the second 542 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 3: reason was that once I met Leon, it was just 543 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 3: so clear to me not only that he was innocent, 544 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 3: but just what a complete waste this was, because he's 545 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 3: such an amazing human being and has so much to 546 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: offer the world as an artist, as a thinker, as 547 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 3: a brother, as a partner, as a father, as a 548 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: member of the community. And the idea that Leon was 549 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 3: just going to be rotting in there was so horrifying 550 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: to me. It just I couldn't live with that, and 551 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 3: so I thought, you know what, this is a long 552 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 3: shot but we're going to dig deep. We're going to 553 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 3: do everything we possibly can. And I felt like at 554 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: the end of the day, if after a few years 555 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: and we did everything we possibly could, I could live 556 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 3: with that. But what I couldn't live with was listening 557 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 3: to Shannon and meeting Leon and walking away. 558 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: Laura, you are a real one, and I'm sure Leon 559 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: and I can both say that we're grateful for a turn. 560 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: It's like you that'll take the long shots. Now we 561 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: have to get to the events that led to Leon's 562 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: conviction being vacated. Can you tell us about that process. 563 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: Leon's case was accepted for review by the Conviction Integrity 564 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 3: Unit of the Marion County Prosecutor's Office, which was a 565 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: new unit at the time, and I think maybe his 566 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: case was the first that was accepted, and the co director, 567 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: Kelly Botter, was assigned to it. So we were really 568 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: lucky that we had a true partner in the prosecution, 569 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: the District Attorney Ryan Meers. He was very focused on 570 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: making sure not that the numbers were really high in 571 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 3: terms of convictions, but that the right people were being 572 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 3: convicted and that innocent people were not being convicted. And 573 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 3: so Ryan Mehers had assigned Kelly and her counterpart to 574 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 3: look back at cases where it seemed like maybe there 575 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 3: had been a mistake or multiple mistakes that were made. 576 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 3: And what was really tricky about Leon's case is that 577 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: many of the issues that we had been talking about 578 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: were what we call in the legal world litigated and lost, 579 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 3: meaning that they had been raised at other times after 580 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 3: Land was convicted and rejected. And that included the misconduct 581 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 3: that I described by the prosecutor. It included the failure 582 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 3: to call Dakaria Fulton, It included the failure to introduce 583 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: testimony about the perils of crossracial identification. All of those 584 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 3: issues had been raised and lost, and so we had 585 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 3: to find something new, and that was going to be very, 586 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: very hard because almost a quarter of a century had gone. 587 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: And it occurred to us ultimately that maybe there was 588 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: evidence that was provided by the original people involved in 589 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 3: the case as witnesses that had never been turned over 590 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 3: to Leon and his attorney, and so that ended up 591 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 3: being the key that really unlocked the prison door, so 592 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: to speak. In other words, we were all in agreement 593 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: that once this buried evidence surfaced, it was really clear 594 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 3: that the trial had been unfair and unconstitutional because there's 595 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 3: a rule, the Brady rule, that says you have to 596 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 3: turn that evidence over and had been violated. And in 597 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: addition to it being violated, it was very clear that 598 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: had it been followed, the jury would have reached a 599 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: different verdict. 600 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: You mentioned evidence that was buried, What exactly was that 601 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: buried evidence and how did you dig it up? 602 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: So what we did was Kelly, our partner on the 603 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 3: other side and the Conviction Review Unit, she provided the 604 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 3: actual police file, which no one in the history of 605 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 3: the litigation had ever seen, including Leon, and so we 606 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: went through everything in that file, and then we compared 607 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 3: it to the documents that have been turned over to 608 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: Leon and Lo and behold pretty much every time Joseph 609 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: Webster came up as a suspect, whether it was through 610 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: multiple detailed crime stopper tips, or most crucially, a note 611 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 3: to Detective Jones from another detective citing three different people 612 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 3: who had either witnessed the murder or who he had 613 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 3: told he did. It was buried and Leon had never 614 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 3: gotten those things. So we went to see Detective Jones. 615 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 3: He had retired under difficult circumstances, he was older ailing 616 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: and over a series of hours. Really towards the end 617 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 3: of this interview, he admitted that he had not turned 618 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 3: these documents over and that basically every time he wrote 619 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: something down or received something that was handwritten, including this 620 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 3: note saying, my confidential informant saw Joseph Webster shoot the 621 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 3: white boy and the head, that note too, had not 622 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: been turned over. And so when we asked Detective Jones why, 623 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 3: he said, well, that was my work product, and there 624 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 3: is really no such thing as police work product. They 625 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 3: have to turn over everything in their file to the 626 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 3: district attorney. And so once he said that, I remember, 627 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: I just had a physical sensation in my body, like 628 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 3: I just couldn't believe that he was saying what he 629 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 3: was saying. That's when I realized that in that moment, 630 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 3: the case was probably over. And then we came back 631 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 3: and visited him a few months later and he signed 632 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 3: a declaration basically saying what he had said to us initially, 633 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 3: and that was, in the end, the most powerful piece 634 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 3: of evidence that really broke the case completely apart. And 635 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: that was when I understood that that Leon was going 636 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 3: to be going home. 637 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: And then on March eighth, twenty twenty three, Leon's conviction 638 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: was vacated by Judge Chatries Flowers. 639 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: But I didn't know until March NiFe about eleven in 640 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 2: this and I was reading J. Prince The Art of Respect. 641 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 4: I was reading that and they called my name, and 642 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 4: you know, I left out and went there, and the 643 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 4: council was like. 644 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: Hey, you got immediate release, you know, woo woo. So 645 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: I did have a David Shappel moment, right, I did 646 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: kind of feel like man, woo tang, you know, just 647 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: slipping over my desk's right. 648 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 4: So I just pumped my fists and I went and 649 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 4: got my property together and everything, and I was on 650 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 4: my way down the walk like an hour later, you 651 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 4: know what I mean. So I threw on my all white, 652 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 4: you know, I threw my pair, my prayer shaw on. 653 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 4: I get there to the gate, and uh, you know, 654 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 4: the first thing when I opened up. 655 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: The door, it's like I was blinded by the light, 656 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: you know, I was being rebirthed. 657 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 4: And the first thing I did, you know, I iron 658 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 4: at the most High in which I called the most 659 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 4: High Yahweh. I said, hallelu Yah barukata ya huah, which 660 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 4: means blessed be the name Yahweh. That's what I did 661 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 4: when I got out. I see my sister Valerie, and 662 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 4: I heard my brother's voice, and I see my daughters, 663 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 4: and I seen all my people who looked at like 664 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 4: angels to me when they sat right there and they 665 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 4: was looking and I could hear the chant truth never dies, 666 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 4: Truth never dies. And what you would see if you 667 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 4: ever look at that footage, it's so authentic because I 668 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 4: just was in a moment. That's what you're seeing. That's 669 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 4: the core of me getting out of there. I laugh 670 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 4: at it when I see it too. It bring me joy. 671 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: That's how joyful I was, you know, with that to 672 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: embrace the people who put in the time to believe me. 673 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 2: You believe me, so now you know I'm like a 674 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 2: spiritual Muhammad Ali. I got the people, ain't on telling 675 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 2: them what I can do with the people you believe. 676 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: Me leon all of that, it's just phenomenal and definitely 677 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: resonates within me. And I just think with your release 678 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: and what you're doing now, I'm wondering how many of 679 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: the boxes that you checked off with your goals of 680 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: once you come out, because it seems like in five months, 681 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've checked off plenty. But tell us you know, 682 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: what are you doing with your time nowadays? At you're home? 683 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: You know, I'm living here in Detroit, Michigan. 684 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 4: I've been doing a lot of things because I was 685 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 4: practicing them, you know, on the inside. 686 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: I was mentoring. On the inside, I was. 687 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 4: Teaching, creating programs, performing organizing events, you know, things like that. 688 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 4: One of my biggest highlights is, you know, I dropped 689 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 4: the album Innocent Born Guilty. I recorded it on the inside. 690 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 4: I don't want to tell you how when where you know, yeah, 691 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 4: you know, I don't want to do that, but it 692 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 4: was recorded inside. It's a soundtrack of what I was 693 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 4: feeling in different times and whatnot. Beyond that, you know, 694 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 4: I'm still active in community involvement awareness. You know, every 695 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 4: chance I get, I put a word in for at 696 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 4: risk youth. I connect with other organizations like organization Exigner 697 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 4: Reads here in Detroit. They definitely been huge with helping 698 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 4: me re enter the back in society. I've been you know, 699 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 4: working with the Streets Don't Love You Back, you know, 700 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: these other nonprofits. 701 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: Anything that I can do to bring awareness, you know, 702 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: to Room for and conservations, to any type of you know, 703 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: discriminations or injustices in the world. 704 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: Well, Leon, those are really wonderful organizations that are doing 705 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: great work. We'll put links to them in our bio 706 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: page so our listeners can show their support and also 707 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: let them know where they can check out your album, 708 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty dope by the way. So 709 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: again I feel so humbled and grateful to be able 710 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: to have this opportunity to be a guest host to 711 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: interview you both with wrong For convention podcasts, we always 712 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: close with closing arguments and so just really wanted to 713 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: know what the both of you all have to close with. 714 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 3: I guess I have two kind of calls to action. 715 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 3: The first one is and in the time that it 716 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 3: took between our filing the petition for Lean to be 717 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 3: released and Leon's actual release, we did get increasingly uncertain 718 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 3: about whether this was actually going to work and whether 719 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 3: he was ever going to get out. And the truth 720 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 3: of the matter is it's a major decision by a 721 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 3: judge to overturn a conviction. We needed to respect that process. 722 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 3: I think Leon understood that better than we did. So 723 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 3: one thing I will say to lawyers out there is 724 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 3: listen to your clients. Sometimes oftentimes they know best. And 725 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 3: the second thing I'll say is to the audience, because 726 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 3: any one of you could be selected to serve on 727 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 3: a jury, and it's maybe the most important thing that 728 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 3: you'll ever do, even though you don't realize it. What 729 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 3: I would ask that you do when you're on that 730 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 3: jury is really, really take your obligation seriously, whether it 731 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 3: is presuming somebody innocent, or holding the prosecution to their burden, 732 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 3: or understanding that your doubts are real. I think so often. 733 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 3: There was a juror on Leon's case who did have 734 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 3: a lot of doubts in the second trial, and she 735 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 3: felt sort of bullied and exhausted, and she got herself excused, 736 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,439 Speaker 3: she left the jury, and then they convicted shortly after 737 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 3: with a replacement. And if she had just been able 738 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 3: to hang on a little longer, maybe the result would 739 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 3: have been different. She could have hung the jury again. 740 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 3: So I urge people, when you're in the minority and 741 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 3: you're battling against the majority. Maybe it's even eleven people 742 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 3: telling you you're wrong and you're crazy, and it's Friday 743 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 3: afternoon and they want to go home, hang on, hang 744 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 3: on to your conviction, because you are the person standing 745 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 3: between this wrongfully accused person and a terrible injustice. And 746 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 3: so I would ask people when you're being selected for 747 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 3: a jury to be considerate, to be observant, and to 748 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 3: be strong. 749 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 4: Well, I got two thoughts. I got one ounce of 750 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 4: previncing is better than the town they cure. You know, 751 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 4: do to things I mean as individuals as well as 752 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 4: you know public servants do to things in the now 753 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 4: that you can do to prevent having to go back 754 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 4: right with a ton of cure. So if you just 755 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 4: come with an ounce of prevention, let's just have harm reduction, 756 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 4: you know, in our lives as well as in our 757 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 4: public spaces. 758 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 2: And the next thing is, you know, be a part 759 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 2: of the solution, not the problem. 760 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 4: Don't let your silence be the action that you know 761 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 4: perpetuates injustice in any form, let alone wrong for incarceration. 762 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 4: It's so many things that we can do as a society, 763 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 4: as individuals that can get the world out. Okay, maybe 764 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 4: you didn't you don't want to get behind. 765 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 2: An innocence case. It might take too long for you. 766 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 4: Maybe you don't want to get behind a particular movement. 767 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 4: But what you can do is small things. Sign a petition, 768 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 4: leave a comment of encouragement to somebody you know, sometimes 769 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 4: show up at a rally that's trying to you know, 770 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 4: get humanity across whereas being blocked. And one thing I 771 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 4: wanted to say too, this ain't my story. 772 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 2: This Casey Shane's story. He was killed because he was closeted. 773 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 4: Now because he's dead, he don't have no voice, and 774 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 4: you know, his story should get out because the biggest 775 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 4: injustice now is not me in prison anymore or the 776 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 4: time that I'm lost, but as an individual you know, 777 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 4: who was a family member to others, was killed maybe 778 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 4: for a sexual preference. And you know, even though you 779 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 4: know I'm a head of sexual guy, I say I'm 780 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 4: an ally to the LGBTQ community because I'm being so 781 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 4: considerate of what they go through and some of those 782 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 4: experiences I don't fully understand. 783 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 2: But one thing I do understand is that we are 784 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 2: all human. 785 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 4: We perfectly imperfect. You know, Hey Helheim said we was perfect. 786 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 4: We were made in their image. You know that's something 787 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 4: that to even look at, you know, and Taul Ross, 788 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 4: so everything that's here is supposed to be, you know, 789 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 4: because it wouldn't be. 790 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. You can listen 791 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: to this and all Lava for Good podcasts one week 792 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. 793 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank executive producers Jason Blam, Jeff Kempler, 794 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: and Kevin Bortis for inviting me to sit in today, 795 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: and thanks to our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, 796 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: Lyla Robinson and Kathleen Fink. The music in this production 797 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. 798 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms 799 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction, and you 800 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: can also follow me at Kenpasmith on Instagram or go 801 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: to my website Kimbosmith dot com and purchase my book 802 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: Poster a Child, The Kembusmith Story. Wrongful Conviction is a 803 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: production of Loving for Good Podcasts in association with Signal 804 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: Company Number one