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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most.

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Speaker 2: Compelling true crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic

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Speaker 2: techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 4: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Second episode. I know I didn't scare

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Speaker 1: you off. I'm still here. You are still accepting of me.

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Speaker 1: In my babble, I was crossing my fingers and here

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Speaker 1: you are. Thank goodness.

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Speaker 3: Yes, nope, this is a good, good thing we're doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm loving it.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I think you and I

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Speaker 1: bond over is our love of books and love of

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Speaker 1: writing books, even though I think it is painful for

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Speaker 1: both of us in really different ways. And one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to celebrate right now is your status as

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Speaker 1: a New York Times bestselling author, which if you were

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Speaker 1: even remotely a jerk, I would say I'm so jealous

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Speaker 1: of But I'm so proud of you for that success.

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Speaker 4: It's really remarkable.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was first notified of that, I

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Speaker 2: truly didn't know what to make of it, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I don't pay much attention.

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Speaker 3: It's just like, well, I know that's a good thing.

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Speaker 2: But my agents are like screaming up and down, hey

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Speaker 2: you got this. So no, I'm very thankful that the

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Speaker 2: book has been well accepted by the readers and that

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Speaker 2: the message within the book is.

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Speaker 3: Getting out there.

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Speaker 1: I do love how unaware you are of these types

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Speaker 1: of things, because when I saw your name on the list,

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Speaker 1: I think it was the second week, and I texted

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Speaker 1: you and I said, Paul, you're on the list. And

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Speaker 1: you said yes, and you said, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: what that means. You said that's a good thing, and

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Speaker 1: I said, yes, that's a good thing.

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Speaker 3: It is a good thing. Well, and you've got a

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Speaker 3: book as well.

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Speaker 1: I have a book coming out in just a few

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Speaker 1: weeks that I'm really excited about. It's called All That

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Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and it's based on the first season of

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Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked, which is my baby. It was the

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Speaker 1: first show that I did and it's been a labor

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Speaker 1: of love for me. I don't know how you feel

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Speaker 1: about books, but for me, when a book of mine

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Speaker 1: comes out, this is my third book, it's like the

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Speaker 1: amount of time you spend on them having a child

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Speaker 1: and then inviting the world to judge your child on

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Speaker 1: a scale of one to five, right if it's based

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Speaker 1: on attractiveness or intelligence.

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Speaker 4: But it's really really difficult.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any insecurities when your book came out?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I was so nervous, you know, because with my book,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it is a long, hard process from

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Speaker 2: beginning to finally getting the book published. First it's are

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Speaker 2: people going to like the material that's contained within the book?

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Speaker 2: But that I really exposed myself as a person in

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Speaker 2: the book, and you know, I'm private.

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Speaker 3: That was what I was really uncomfortable with.

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Speaker 2: But then I accepted, you know, in order to really

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Speaker 2: get that message of working these cases and how it

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Speaker 2: impacts me as a person and other professionals as individuals.

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Speaker 2: It was worth it and everybody that I've talked to

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Speaker 2: have been very gracious in saying, hey, really appreciate you

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Speaker 2: opening up.

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Speaker 3: So that has been surprised.

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Speaker 2: You know, I thought, oh god, you know, everybody would

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Speaker 2: have had a perception of me before reading the book,

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Speaker 2: and then after reading the book is like, oh god,

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Speaker 2: I don't really like this Paul Holes guy.

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Speaker 4: You know, so impossible.

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Speaker 1: No, please, Well, I think you and I tackle these

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Speaker 1: projects from opposite ends of the spectrum, because you know,

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Speaker 1: your book Unmasked, it's you on a page, It is

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Speaker 1: everything about you.

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Speaker 4: It feels really unedited.

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Speaker 1: It feels like you've just been willing to spill everything out.

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Speaker 1: And I struggle in my books because I can't insert

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Speaker 1: my personality very much in a book about history. Which

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Speaker 1: is why I love podcasts, and that's why I love

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Speaker 1: chatting with you.

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Speaker 4: Is I really like people.

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Speaker 1: To know who I am, and my life is frankly,

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Speaker 1: just not that interesting enough to run a memore.

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Speaker 4: So I am a little jealous. I didn't think I

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Speaker 4: was jealous. I am a little jealous of you.

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Speaker 2: Then, well, but I think you know with what you're doing,

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Speaker 2: It's like I've tried to write creative fiction before, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm nervous to give that to somebody else out

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Speaker 2: of fear they're going to judge me. So I imagine, and

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Speaker 2: that's what you experience with your books creative fiction.

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Speaker 4: I love that. I will say.

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Speaker 1: The case that we're going to talk about in just

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Speaker 1: a bit is a case from my second book. It

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Speaker 1: never made it into the book, but it's from the

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Speaker 1: forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich.

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Speaker 4: You and I've talked about him, and I'm not saying.

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Speaker 1: This is you, Paul Hols, but Oscar Heinrich knew everything

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Speaker 1: about all forensics, everything, and he tried his hand at

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Speaker 1: writing fiction and it was possibly the worst fiction I've read.

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Speaker 3: Mine probably would be on that level as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now I now have very very low standards for

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Speaker 1: what I considered to be decent fiction from a forensic guy,

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Speaker 1: because it was a very low.

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Speaker 4: Bar for it was not good.

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Speaker 2: Well, like I would say, in reflecting upon my writing experience,

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Speaker 2: most of my career has been writing analytical reports and

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Speaker 2: case supplements, and then to get into something that is

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Speaker 2: more in the creative world. You know, it's not so

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Speaker 2: factually driven, but there is a use of words and

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Speaker 2: painting a picture and doing things that I've never done

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Speaker 2: in the past. I think there's an aptitude and innate

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Speaker 2: aptitude that many writers have, but it is also a

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Speaker 2: learned skill set. So I'm at the very beginning of

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Speaker 2: learning that skill set.

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Speaker 4: Well, you're brave. It's a brave new world.

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Speaker 1: So my book is out October fourth, and it's terrifying

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Speaker 1: to think about that coming up. But I'm so proud

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Speaker 1: of tenfold more wicket and of course wicked words in

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Speaker 1: this show too. But that first season, people ask me

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Speaker 1: what my favorite season is because we're now going into

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Speaker 1: like season seven, and.

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Speaker 4: That first season.

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Speaker 1: You never forget your first and that was my first season.

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Speaker 4: I love that season.

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Speaker 1: And this book is Edward Ruloff chained to the floor

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Speaker 1: of a jail and all of these men coming in

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Speaker 1: and being able to hopefully figure out why this man

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Speaker 1: was brilliant and a killer at the same time. And

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Speaker 1: what it tells us now, you know, we thought the

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Speaker 1: real mind hunters were from the nineteen seventies with the

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Speaker 1: FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, and it really was these men

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Speaker 1: one hundred years earlier.

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Speaker 4: So it's exciting. I love talking about the criminal.

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Speaker 1: Mind the eighteen hundreds, and I certainly love talking about

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Speaker 1: it with you.

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Speaker 2: That's part of the fun of what we're doing together

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Speaker 2: is showing that where we are at today with criminal

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Speaker 2: investigations and forensic science, Well, it's based on the foundations

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Speaker 2: that were laid by those that came before me, before us,

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Speaker 2: two hundred years ago.

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Speaker 1: Well, this story is an Oscar Heinrich mystery. So let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and set the scene. So this case really

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Speaker 1: haunted Oscar Heinrich. It was sort of at the height

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Speaker 1: of his career in nineteen thirty and it's the hallmarks

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Speaker 1: of everything that he really enjoyed as a forensic scientist.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of a glamorous person at the center of it.

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Speaker 1: Many many suspects, a lot of wacky, weird forensics, and

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Speaker 1: he loved a good mystery. So as we unfold this,

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll enjoy trying to help me out with this

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Speaker 1: mystery too.

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Speaker 3: I'm here with bated breath. Let me hear it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, Oscar Heinrich loved keeping all sorts of evidence

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Speaker 1: that was probably pretty inappropriate for him to keep. It

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Speaker 1: probably should have been in a police locker room somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever do that you hear about these old

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Speaker 1: detectives and who really killed Jack the Rippers in somebody's basement.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever squirrel away evidence on a particular case

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Speaker 1: that maybe you weren't allowed to do that?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, my generation, the chain of custody was

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Speaker 2: much more rigid. It would be very tough to squirrel

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Speaker 2: away evidence without somebody noticing that there's.

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Speaker 3: Been a break in the chain.

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Speaker 2: I actually repatriated some evidence back to our property room

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Speaker 2: from a nineteen seventy homicide that I found tucked away.

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Speaker 2: A previous kriminist had squirreled away a box of evidence

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Speaker 2: and he ended up becoming sick and passing away before

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Speaker 2: he ever got around to returning it. And then when

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Speaker 2: I start digging back into that nineteen seventy homicide years later,

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Speaker 2: that evidence that I had sent to property had been destroyed.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways, if I had just sat on it,

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Speaker 2: it would have been available.

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Speaker 4: Would have been safer. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Oscar Heinrich had the most random stuff in his archive,

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Speaker 1: and they found all sorts of things from the Fatty

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Speaker 1: Arbuckle case, the supposed victim of Virginia Repee.

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Speaker 4: There was a chunk of her hair.

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Speaker 1: There were all sorts of things, including three fully loaded guns,

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Speaker 1: and the UC Berkeley police had to come and remove

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Speaker 1: the firing pin. So I want to show you a

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence that I find to be interesting because

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Speaker 1: I like seeing things from the victims. For me, that's

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Speaker 1: a good way to set the scene. So this is

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Speaker 1: something that I found in his archive about this case.

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Speaker 1: So this is the murder of Dorothy Moremeister, and this

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Speaker 1: was a lockett that he found around her neck, and

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Speaker 1: it was a very violent scene when he went to

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Speaker 1: the scene, and this was a lockett with somebody's hair.

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Speaker 1: We don't know who, but Dorothy Moremeister has a very

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Speaker 1: complicated life, and I think that she had some complicated relationships.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to just start with that lockett to

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Speaker 1: show that she clearly cared about somebody other than herself,

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Speaker 1: because much of this story is that she had some

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Speaker 1: issues with relationships, and so I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: frame the story that this is someone who was caring

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Speaker 1: of other people.

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Speaker 2: For me, it's always neat to see in these old

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Speaker 2: cases evidence or items that reflect the time period. So

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Speaker 2: now looking at the container obviously has a rustic look

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Speaker 2: to it, but what struck me was the hair inside

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Speaker 2: of it. The individual strands of hair look like they

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Speaker 2: have some thickness to them. Just does not look like

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Speaker 2: hair that has come from an infant, like sometimes what

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Speaker 2: happens the first haircut.

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Speaker 3: There's length to it. It's hard to say how logs.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell the size of this container, but this hair,

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Speaker 2: this is at least a I would say, a child

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Speaker 2: who's got a more mature set of hair, and it

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Speaker 2: could be from an adult.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: From an investigator standpoint, I'm looking at that going, okay, was.

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Speaker 3: This a boyfriend?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Is somebody we don't know about that could have had

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Speaker 2: motive or somebody close to him, maybe a wife or

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Speaker 2: girlfriend that could have had motive, you know, So this

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Speaker 2: is evidence in the case. Also, what strikes me is

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Speaker 2: this is a color photograph. This is not black and white.

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Speaker 3: This was a photograph indicating that this item of evidence

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Speaker 3: had been kept and then photoed decades later.

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Speaker 4: Well, actually, Paul, this was available to me.

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Speaker 1: I took this photo. So this was something that he kept.

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Speaker 1: I picked this thing up. It's about the size of

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Speaker 1: your thumb. So this was sizable for her to wear

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Speaker 1: around her neck. So this was somebody who meant something.

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Speaker 1: She didn't have any biological children. She had a stepdaughter

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Speaker 1: who was probably too old for her to be too

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Speaker 1: sentimental about. But I agree with you, this could easily

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Speaker 1: be a child's hair. But my big point is for

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Speaker 1: sure that this was someone who wasn't always thinking about herself,

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Speaker 1: although as we get into the story, it sort of

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Speaker 1: feels like she was thinking about herself a lot.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So let me tell you a little bit about Dorothy.

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Speaker 1: So, Dorothy Mooremi was thirty two years old, so she's young,

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Speaker 1: and her husband, Frank, was a very prominent and wealthy

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Speaker 1: physician in Salt Lake City, Utah, and on the surface,

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Speaker 1: seemed like a happy couple, like a lot of people present. Right,

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about the time period. So this is

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City during Prohibition in nineteen thirty and also

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Speaker 1: the Great Depression.

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Speaker 4: It was a big double whammy.

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Speaker 1: I write an awful lot about this time period, the

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Speaker 1: intersection between Prohibition and the Great Depression. It was a

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Speaker 1: rise in crime, it was a rise in organized crime. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: Utah economically was one of the hardest hit states. The

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Speaker 1: unemployment in Utah was at almost forty percent. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: forty percent unemployment. Can you imagine?

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Speaker 3: That's crazy?

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Speaker 2: Man? You're saying Salt Lake City and prohibition. Back then,

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Speaker 2: I imagine it still was a very Mormon dominated city.

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Speaker 2: So how big was the loss of alcohol to this community.

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Speaker 4: I think probably not big.

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Speaker 1: And what ended up happening was, even though it was

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Speaker 1: for thirty percent unapployment, they were still doing better than

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Speaker 1: much of the country. And so there were people coming

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Speaker 1: to Utah looking for jobs and they were generating crime

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Speaker 1: in the process because they weren't finding those shops, to

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Speaker 1: a point where the state actually began kicking them out

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Speaker 1: later that year, ejecting non residents because crime was really

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Speaker 1: becoming out of control. And that sort of plays a

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Speaker 1: part in this case when we're trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: who did what.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is literally like in the first Rambo

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Speaker 2: movie where the deputy gets Rambo and drives them to

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Speaker 2: the edge of the town and says, don't come back.

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Speaker 1: It took you two episodes to pull up a Rambo reference.

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Speaker 4: I was waiting for that, Okay. So here's the story.

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Speaker 1: So, just after midnight on February twenty second, nineteen thirty,

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Speaker 1: Dorothy Mooremeister her body was found on the western edge

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Speaker 1: of the city, in a rural area. So she was

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Speaker 1: on a lonely road, no car, no nothing around her.

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Speaker 1: The car was found several miles away. But once Heinrich

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Speaker 1: and other people came to do an accident reconstruction, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of this becomes clear. Police just responding

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Speaker 1: because a witness happened to see her on the road.

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Speaker 1: When they found her and they sort of lit up

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Speaker 1: the area, it was a terrible scene. She was face

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Speaker 1: down and even without a car there, you could tell

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Speaker 1: that she had been run over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, with a car.

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Speaker 4: So my first thought, which I think is where a

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Speaker 4: lot of people might go, is this takes gender out

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Speaker 4: of it, because anybody can get behind the wheel of

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Speaker 4: a car.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting choice of weapon. I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: we see that that often do.

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Speaker 2: We Typically when we have pedestrians that have been run over,

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Speaker 2: it's often in the hit and run environment where the

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Speaker 2: driver is the UI or is not paying attention, hits

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Speaker 2: the pedestrian and then runs off. So there is no

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Speaker 2: mal intent from the driver to purposely kill the victim.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I've got questions about Dorothy her body at

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Speaker 2: this location is could they tell that she had been

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Speaker 2: run over at this spot where her body's found or

306
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Speaker 2: had she been run over somewhere else and then dumped here,

307
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Speaker 2: or has she been drug by a vehicle from a location,

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Speaker 2: because oftentimes when a vehicle hits a pedestrian, a pedestrian

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Speaker 2: can be caught up in the undercarriage and then carried

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Speaker 2: a distance away.

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Speaker 1: Well, the forensics here are pretty complicated, So this will

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Speaker 1: be torture for you because I'm going to unravel them slowly.

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Speaker 1: So as a police officer detective on the scene, the

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Speaker 1: first thing you see is this woman face down. They

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Speaker 1: said every bone in her body had been broken, and

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Speaker 1: what they determined just based on the tire marks and

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Speaker 1: the amount of dragging she had been dragged. But it

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Speaker 1: looked like she had been dragged one time and that

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Speaker 1: she had not been moving when the car ran over

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Speaker 1: her five times. Okay, that's a lot, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is if you have the driver who hits a pedestrian,

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Speaker 2: runs over the body and then circles back around, comes

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Speaker 2: back or backs up. Now this is showing intent that

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Speaker 2: there's not the oh I just hit something and I

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Speaker 2: didn't know what I hit type of defense. This now

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Speaker 2: puts it into that realm of this is purposeful. So

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Speaker 2: this is where proving that it's a single vehicle versus

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Speaker 2: multiple vehicles would be part of the type of question

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Speaker 2: that I would be looking at. Maybe some of the

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Speaker 2: components of the vehicle breakoff due to the impact with

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Speaker 2: the victim, or you see the same tire type marks,

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Speaker 2: whether they're impressions and or prints that are present on

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Speaker 2: her clothing or on the surface that her body's on,

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Speaker 2: or on the sides of the roads. So there's ways

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Speaker 2: to show that it was a single vehicle versus multiple vehicles.

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Speaker 4: So one set of tire tracks is what they're reporting.

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Speaker 4: Is that accurate?

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Speaker 1: How far can we go with tire tracks impressions in

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Speaker 1: the dirt and let's just say clean dirt, it's very

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Speaker 1: clear impressions. Is this an accurate tool of forensics?

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously, different makes and models of tires have different

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Speaker 2: tread patterns, they have different sizes, different width. Then you

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Speaker 2: also have the vehicular characteristics. The axle width that these

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Speaker 2: tires are on vary from vehicle to vehicle. Now we're

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Speaker 2: talking in nineteen thirties, so it's probably a very limited

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Speaker 2: number of vehicles that are present. And what I don't

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Speaker 2: know is how standardized let's say the undercarriages of all

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Speaker 2: these vehicles are is it the same width, are they

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Speaker 2: using the same tires, or is there enough variability to

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Speaker 2: be able to start narrowing down what makes vehicles and

351
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Speaker 2: or tires could have been involved in the case based

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Speaker 2: on the tire impressions. There's ways to look at these

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Speaker 2: impressions and start getting a sense of Okay, I can

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Speaker 2: now reconstruct what the driver is doing.

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Speaker 3: They're in a singular vehicle.

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Speaker 2: They're driving forward, stopping, turning, driving back, you know, doing

357
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Speaker 2: this three point turn. Provided that the surface the car

358
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Speaker 2: is on is a recording medium. Asphalt typically doesn't afford

359
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Speaker 2: you that luxury.

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Speaker 1: Now, if we set this scene a woman, well dressed,

361
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Speaker 1: married to a wealthy doctor. She's laying face down in

362
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Speaker 1: the road, there's no car around her, there's a set

363
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Speaker 1: of tire tracks. Would we think that there's a good

364
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Speaker 1: chance that she rode up there with the killer, something

365
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Speaker 1: happened and he runs her down.

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Speaker 4: So that's option A.

367
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Speaker 1: Option B is she's out there by herself at midnight,

368
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Speaker 1: walking around in a rural area, maybe with somebody else

369
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Speaker 1: who knows, and then a driver comes and hits her

370
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Speaker 1: accidentally or on purpose or super secret. Option number three,

371
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Speaker 1: which I have no idea, but you might come up with.

372
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Speaker 2: This is where victimology really plays in. First, I would

373
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Speaker 2: be looking at the geography of this crime scene. Is

374
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Speaker 2: it a very isolated location? And then is this a

375
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Speaker 2: location that she would frequent or not? If she would

376
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Speaker 2: frequent there, why would she be going out there? Or

377
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Speaker 2: is there a prime arterial road nearby, like maybe somebody

378
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: dropped her off and now she's just out there on

379
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Speaker 2: the side of the road.

380
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Speaker 3: You know.

381
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Speaker 2: I think all of those possibilities, with the set of

382
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 2: circumstances that you've laid out, are in play. At this point,

383
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: it's really getting to know Dorothy better. And once the

384
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,120
Speaker 2: investigation proceeds, it's now talking to people who said, oh, yeah,

385
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Speaker 2: Dorothy would go out there all the time, or Dorothy

386
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Speaker 2: was planning on taking a ride he said, this is

387
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Speaker 2: the west end of the city. Was she heading someplace

388
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Speaker 2: out west with somebody?

389
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Speaker 3: You know?

390
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 2: And obviously she ends up outside the vehicle, and then

391
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Speaker 2: who was that person that she was heading out west with?

392
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Speaker 3: So digging into who she is, what her patterns of

393
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Speaker 3: life are.

394
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: And then the investigation into at least the people that

395
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 2: investigators are able to determine new her and saw her

396
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,400
Speaker 2: last becomes critical information to start assessing. Okay, what happened

397
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Speaker 2: at the this location in the west part of the city.

398
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Speaker 4: So investigators move up the road.

399
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: This was a one lane road, so they can tell,

400
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: as you had said, where the car came in from,

401
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,360
Speaker 1: and they could see that it was a real jig

402
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 1: jaggedy motion as if someone had been struggling inside the

403
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 1: car potentially, so they theorized that she rode up or

404
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 1: was taken up by.

405
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 4: The killer or at least one of the killers.

406
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 1: Does that change anything for you that we know that

407
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 1: it looks like there's a motion where she was maybe

408
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: struggling with the steering wheel to try to get control.

409
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: Well, that becomes interesting. Was this a scenario where she

410
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: is inside a vehicle and at a certain point she

411
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 2: realizes the driver's not taking her to where she wants

412
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 2: to go. You know, maybe she's saying I want to

413
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: go home, or she gets picked up by somebody and

414
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 2: she's expecting to be taken to a different part of

415
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 2: the city, and once the vehicle turns onto this one

416
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Speaker 2: way road, she's recognizing this is not good. And that's

417
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: when the struggle inside the vehicle occurs. That's one possibility

418
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 2: for sure. I have to say, right now, there's an

419
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: assumption that Dorothy is not the driver. When the car

420
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 2: is zigzagging, Dorothy could be at the driver and then

421
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 2: the person that's let's say in the front passenger seat,

422
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: not necessarily just front passenger seat.

423
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 3: But I don't know what kind of vehicle we're dealing with.

424
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 4: You're about to find out. I'm going to show you

425
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 4: a picture of it.

426
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking it's possible where now you have somebody

427
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 2: inside a vehicle that Dorothy's driving and is now trying

428
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: to take over control of the vehicle, and that's why

429
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: it's doing this jag in motion.

430
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have thought maybe she was drugged and

431
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 1: then woke up and went, what this is not happening.

432
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Speaker 3: Another possibility.

433
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 4: Now, let me tell you what Heinrich found.

434
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 1: So he goes out and he examines the body, and

435
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: here are the details from what he finds.

436
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 4: At the body.

437
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 1: He looks at her close fitting hat, which in the

438
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 1: thirties women's sort of work. I'm not going to say

439
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: a bought it, but a really kind of tight hat

440
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: almost covering her whole head. And he looks at the

441
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 1: back of her head, and there is a slit like

442
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: a hole almost at the back of her neck and

443
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: a clot of blood beneath it. Okay, that mine or

444
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: might not have been fatal. He doesn't know yet, he's

445
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: just looking at the information. There are injuries to her

446
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: skull which could have been caused by blunt force trauma.

447
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: It could have been caused by the car or both.

448
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: We don't know cause of death yet, and we don't

449
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: know if it was the car that killed her yet.

450
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: So hole in the back of the base of her

451
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 1: skull right the base of where her neck is, and

452
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: then definitely some injuries to her skull.

453
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: And I will say that when pedestrians have been hit

454
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 2: by vehicles, that really complicates any interpretation of what may

455
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: have happened prior to the injuries and damage the vehicle

456
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 2: has inflicted. If you have somebody that had blunt force

457
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 2: trauma from let's say a beating, and now they've been

458
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 2: run over five times, it can be difficult, but not impossible,

459
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 2: to determine whether or not there had been violence inflicted

460
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: on that person before the injuries and damage from the vehicle.

461
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: So that's where it gets into Okay, what else is found,

462
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: and then that's when the autopsy becomes absolutely critical.

463
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting about this too is, you know,

464
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: they said she had not been moving, she was not

465
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: fighting back or trying to get out of the way

466
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: when this car was running over here, because they found

467
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: drag marks, but kind of like an initial drag mark,

468
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: and then it just kept hitting her over and over again.

469
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: So Heinrich's first thought was that she was either totally

470
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: incapacitated or already dead when the car ran her over

471
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 1: five times. And his thought was she would at least

472
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: be moving around a little bit and causing different sort

473
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: of marks in the ground.

474
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 4: Does that make sense to you?

475
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 3: Not really, are.

476
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 4: You contradicting Oscar Heinrich, my.

477
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: Investigator, Okay, I am more thinking to try to determine

478
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 2: whether or not she was alive at the time of

479
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: the first impact. I would be more paying attention to

480
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: are there any impact injuries her that would indicate she

481
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 2: was upright. So a pedestrian who's standing up when a

482
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: car hits them and again not knowing what damage is

483
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: on the car and the make and model of the car,

484
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: but there is often severe injuries that say to the

485
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: lower legs or the thighs that would indicate that you

486
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: have an impact from the bumper or other feature of

487
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: the car on the front of the car.

488
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: So that's again we need to.

489
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: Assess the injuries to her body, the damage to the vehicle,

490
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: as well as even taking a look at her clothing

491
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 2: and the types of marks that are on her clothing

492
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: and where different types of evidence are found on the

493
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: vehicle to start reconstructing. Okay, we have an impact with

494
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: an upright pedestrian, and then the vehicle starts running over

495
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: a pedestrian that is severely injured and likely unconscious or dead.

496
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 2: But Heinrich coming and saying, well, he's not seeing evidence

497
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: of her moving prior to being struck by the vehicle.

498
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: I would need to see more before I had any

499
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: confidence in that kind of opinion.

500
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: Luckily, they find the car. They find her car several

501
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: miles away. Her car, uh huh, her car which was

502
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: used to run her over. Okay, so this is what

503
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: the damage was done to the car. There was blood

504
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: and a dent in the car's rear bumper, and there

505
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: was hair stuck also in the rear bumper, and they

506
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: found little to no blood at the scene. Underneath her.

507
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: So that's why the theory. I think that she was

508
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: killed or I guess incapacitated before she was on the

509
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: ground or run over by this car. That's where that

510
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: came from. But it is certain that she was hit

511
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: by her own car. So somebody or Dorothy drove her

512
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: car up to this area and then something happened after that.

513
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: They're not finding much blood at the.

514
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: Scene now, not tons of blood. No, Heinrich believed this

515
00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: happened someplace different.

516
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: He did not.

517
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: I think the death itself did not happen at this

518
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: rural area. What do you think about just the idea

519
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: that she was hit by her own car.

520
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: This is where now I start asking, well, who has

521
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: access to the vehicle?

522
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 3: Who would she give access to the vehicle? Who would

523
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: she ride in the vehicle with? This is interesting that

524
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 3: somebody would use her vehicle to run her over multiple times.

525
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: So Heinrich when he examines on the inside of this car,

526
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: and here's the photo of the car. I promised you

527
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: it's a big car.

528
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 3: I can now see the car. A huge car it is.

529
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: This isn't some little model tea. It's large, it's going

530
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: to be heavy. Doesn't show a photo of the rear bumper.

531
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: But I can see where there's a feature of the

532
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: wheel well that goes behind the driver's rear wheel that

533
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: actually is relatively low. If that bumper on the back

534
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 2: is that low, then that becomes interesting from reconstructing. If

535
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: we have blood that's low down in the vehicle like

536
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: that with hair, that indicates that maybe she was in

537
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: a position at the time that that contact occurred where

538
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: her head is being hit by the rear bumper. This

539
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: is not a small vehicle, so to be run over

540
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: five times, yep. I do wonder how they determined the

541
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: number five, But this vehicle would do a lot of

542
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 2: damage to the human body.

543
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: What would make a car go back and forth? Is

544
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: it possible on a dirt road with all of the

545
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: variations of rocks and sticks and everything. Can a car

546
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: go back and forth systematically in its own tracks?

547
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 4: Or?

548
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: I wonder if a car this age, nineteen thirty, this heavy,

549
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: if they almost could count like the rings on a tree,

550
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: the different impressions, just slight impressions that each tire moving

551
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: forward and backward made Yes.

552
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: That would be the one way that they would be

553
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: able to do it.

554
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: Okay, no matter how carefully you move the car back

555
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: and forth, there's always a deviation. So if they were

556
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: trying to rely on her injuries to say five times,

557
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: and I would have concerns on that determination.

558
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 4: So this is a huge car.

559
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: People often when you read about it called a limo.

560
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: I didn't really understand that because it's also called a sedan.

561
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 1: But if you look at this thing, it's long, it

562
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: does look like a limo now, and I think she

563
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: had a.

564
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 4: Driver who drove this regularly.

565
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: Do you see below the doors, don't you think those

566
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: are step ups where you lower the step and the

567
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: person can step up and get into the car. If

568
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: that is, And that's an element of fanciness that I

569
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: didn't expect.

570
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: You know, this is a car where just somebody who

571
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: sees it goes, oh, there's a level of wealth.

572
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: Associated with this person.

573
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: Yep. So there is a scenario that you could see

574
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: her coming to an intersection and somebody who's interested in

575
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: committing a crime for financial gain all of a sudden

576
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: has a victim of opportunity. Yep.

577
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: Well, and if we're taking an inventory of the crime scene,

578
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: she was wearing some very expensive jewelry, including a pendant

579
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars worth of jewelry and it was gone.

580
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if robbery had been a motive, but

581
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 1: certainly it was there and it was taken by whoever

582
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: killed her.

583
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so now that puts more weight on a financial

584
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: gain crime. Possibly still could be somebody who knew her,

585
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: could be a stranger. But also was this jewelry so

586
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: unique that that could be used to help identify her?

587
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Now are they trying to hide her identification? Just like

588
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: we have cases where hands are cut off, heads are

589
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: cut off to prevent identification, Maybe this jewelry would be

590
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: rapidly traced back as this crumpled mass on the middle

591
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: of the road is Dorothy. So this is part of

592
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: what I would be assessing as to why is this

593
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: jewelry taken? But now I'm starting to go I think

594
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: there might be a financial motive here, and.

595
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: I will say that I think you'll be surprised that

596
00:29:50,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: it could be both. Oh, so you know the basics

597
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: of the forensics. There's no huge revelations after that. Now

598
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: we need to talk about the inner circle because this

599
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: is where things become pretty interesting. So I mentioned she

600
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: was married, and you had an excellent query, which was

601
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: who has access to her car? Because obviously, if she's

602
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: killed by her own car, she has access, and then

603
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: the people in her inner circle potentially have access to

604
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: the car. So she was married to Frank Mooremeister, who

605
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: was quite a bit older, and he was a widower

606
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: who had a young daughter, and he and Dorothy married

607
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: two years earlier before her death. So they both had affairs,

608
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: and they apparently had a pretty unhappy marriage, but they

609
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: were still married, so it could have been a marriage

610
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: of convenience.

611
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 4: She was very attractive, he was very wealthy.

612
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: Who knows why they were staying together, but they were

613
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: together when all of this happened.

614
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: How old is Frank's daughter?

615
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: Young?

616
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: Just you know, a young girl's under fifteen.

617
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: And I don't get the impression that she was particularly

618
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: attached to Dorothy and vice versa.

619
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 4: But I don't know.

620
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: This could have been the hair in the locket, but

621
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, So we'll start with Dorothy. Dorothy

622
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: had several affairs, and as I said, the doctor had

623
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: several affairs. They appeared to be living these parallel lives.

624
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: When she was found dead, the doctor was taken up

625
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: there and he identified the body, and he looked at

626
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: the crime scene and he of course immediately identified her.

627
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: Later on, there would be a lot of speculation about

628
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: doctor moremeister. How could he identify her when she really

629
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: was tattered, The car had runner over, As I said,

630
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: every bone was broken, she was completely disfigured. And I

631
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: don't think it's gonna be that surprising that he could

632
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: look at her clothing and probably look at a couple

633
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: of key things. I think that press was really just

634
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: trying to dig up some dirt on him.

635
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: What do you think about that?

636
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: I mean, are you shocked that the press was trying

637
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: to dig up dirt on anybody?

638
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: For me, it's always shocking to think back to the

639
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: days of having to get loved ones in to take

640
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: a look at a victim and to identify them, because,

641
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: like in this case, my expectation is, you know what

642
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: I've seen as many of these victims of violent crime,

643
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: they're horribly mutilated.

644
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: This is not the last image you want to see

645
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: of your victim.

646
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: But back in nineteen thirty, you know, they relied so

647
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: heavily on a loved one making that in person identification.

648
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: But was there enough features present for the husband to

649
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: be able to truly say, yes, this is my wife Dorothy, yeah,

650
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: or it wasn't relied upon the clothes. You know, he

651
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: might be familiar with the clothes she had on right now,

652
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: don't know, but yeah, that I think is one of

653
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: those things where I just think back, going, oh God,

654
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: I would not want to be pulled in to identify

655
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: one of my family members if they had suffered a

656
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: traffic accident or you know, we're victims of homicide.

657
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: And this is just terrible because me it seems like

658
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: overkilled really trying to determine that this woman was killed. Now,

659
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: if we're looking at suspects and doing a positive and

660
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: negative list of the suspects, and doctor Moremeister's positive is

661
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: he was the one who hired Oscar Heinrich. So in

662
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: the thirties, Heinrich was usually hired either by defense attorneys

663
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: or prosecutors, and then sometimes he would be hired by

664
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: family members and more Meister tracked him down and said,

665
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: can you work on my wife's case. I don't trust

666
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: the police around here to investigate this correctly. So that's

667
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: how Oscar got on with this case. And Oscar started

668
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: doing what you would do, which is he starts digging

669
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: into the inner circle the personal life, putting together victimology,

670
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: and he starts looking at who are the men who

671
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Dorothy is involved with in these extramarital affairs.

672
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 4: One of them is a man named Charles Peter.

673
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: He was pretty much immediately a prime suspect in the death.

674
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: He had urged Dorothy to divorce her husband and to

675
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: take all of his money and they would run away together.

676
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: It's unclear how intense this relationship was. I think I

677
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: get the sense that this man was sort of a

678
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: way for her to buy a little bit of time,

679
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: and he gave her attention. I will say that she

680
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: constantly rejected him, so if they had.

681
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 4: A true affair, it was very short lived.

682
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: And she actually called him to a friend of hers

683
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: a lop eared fool, which is I'm pretty sure an

684
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: insult in the nineteen thirty like a lop eared rabbit.

685
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: I guess that seems like a bad thing to say

686
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: to someone.

687
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: But in addition to this affair, the fact that he

688
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: is pushing her to divorce a husband and take all

689
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: his money, now this is starting to overlap with what

690
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: we're seeing the offender having done with stealing the valuables

691
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: at the scene. It's sort of an extension of that

692
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: request to Dorothy, where now it's like, well, you're not

693
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: going to get rid of your husband. I'm going to

694
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: take you out, but I'm going to take some of

695
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: his money with me. It's consistent with Charles' mentality in

696
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: that relationship. Just a theory at this point, but I'm

697
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: keying in on that.

698
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: That's a strong theory because Charles Peter knew her husband,

699
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: they didn't have really business relations. But Charles approached doctor

700
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: Moremeister and asked for a loan, to which doctor Moremeister

701
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: not knowing that this man was courting his wife, or

702
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: maybe he did, we don't know. But doctor Mormeister said, sure,

703
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I'll loan you the money, but as collateral, I would

704
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: like a dimond pendant that I know you have. This

705
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: is the diamond pendant that Dorothy was wearing the night

706
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: that she was found in that rural area, and that

707
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: diamond pendant was gone when the police got there, and

708
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: doctor Moremeister said, where is it? What happened? So does

709
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: that bolster your theory? I think it does a little

710
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: bit about Charles Peter.

711
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 2: It most really could that diamond pendant would be something

712
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: that somebody who had no relationship to it prior would

713
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: be attracted to and want to steal, So it's hard

714
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: to discern that. It really would rely on other aspects

715
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: of the investigation. If that diamond pendant is found in

716
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: Charles's possession and after the homicide, then that shows yeah,

717
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: he wanted that particular item back plus the other items.

718
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: But right now I can't say.

719
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 4: Well, and I'd lied.

720
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: There are a couple of little forensic things I need

721
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: to bring up to you that the police discovered.

722
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 4: I know, I'm sneaky like that.

723
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: So we have another much more serious suitor who was

724
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: a Persian prince. I mean, if I could write a

725
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: book on a Persian prince true crime story.

726
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: That I would love that kind of book.

727
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: She was having an affair with a Persian prince who

728
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: seemed like a really nice guy, and they seemed to

729
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: really love each other, and she wanted to leave doctor

730
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: Mooremeister and live with this man in Paris, and it

731
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: sounds like they were making plans for this to happen,

732
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: and she was squirreling away money that Oscar Heinrich found

733
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: out about. She had six thousand dollars, which was an

734
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: awful lot of money in nineteen thirty. Doctor Mooremeister was

735
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: very confused because he only gave her an allowance of

736
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars a month, so he wants to know

737
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: what the hell where did she get all this money from?

738
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: And there were letters that Heinrich found. Investigators also found

739
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: between the Persian Prince and Dorothy, professing love and true

740
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: affection and making plans to leave. Now, the Persian Prince

741
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: was in Salt Lake City when she was killed, So

742
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: does he become a strong suspect or does he become

743
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: a strong motive And now we're coming back to Frank Mooremeister.

744
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: Well, the Persian Prince, I'm assuming, just because of his royalty,

745
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 2: has money himself.

746
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 4: He isn't he a diamond pendant?

747
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 3: So yeah, the.

748
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: Need to kill Dorothy from his perspective, who would be

749
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 2: probably a few trinkets, right, That doesn't wash with me,

750
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: at least at the time of the homicide. It sounds

751
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: like he and Dorothy had a positive relationship. And so

752
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: this is where potentially, if husband finds out about the

753
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: Persian pet, does husband kill Dorothy out of rage and

754
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: then stage a robbery by taking the jewelry, So that

755
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: is a theory that for me is back on the

756
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: table in terms of yes considering this dynamic. But I'm

757
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: also curious in addition to these suitors, I'm assuming that

758
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: Dorothy was the beneficiary of the husband's estate if he

759
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: were to die.

760
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: Yes, and she had changed her will shortly before, But

761
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 1: I don't think she really had anything significantly.

762
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: Are there any individuals on the husband's side of the

763
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: family that if Dorothy was out of the picture, they

764
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: would be the natural beneficiaries of his wealth stepdaughter?

765
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 4: But again, I think she was really young.

766
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like the ex

767
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: wife was in the picture. Okay, so none of that

768
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: really seems significant, at least not to Hi Rich. But

769
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: as we know, detectives from every era make mistakes, so

770
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, it might have been something that they missed.

771
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: But what they were really focusing on is the quite

772
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: a few kind of sketchy characters. I'm not saying that

773
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: Persian prince is sketchy, but she was friends with racketeers.

774
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: She was friends with people who were in the underbelly

775
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: of Salt Lake City.

776
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 4: But it doesn't sound like mobsters.

777
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like she was living necessarily a lifestyle

778
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: on the edge. It just sounded like she really liked

779
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: to go out and have a good time.

780
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: Okay, now you're telling me about her suitors, Charles and

781
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: the Persian prince. And of course the assumption is is

782
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: that who she's having dallianceis with, they're the ones likely

783
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: going to be committing a homicide. Right, But I'm going

784
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: to step back from that. You said husband was having affairs. Yep,

785
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: he's got women in his life. When I'm evaluating with

786
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: say a victim of a homicide and it's been an

787
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: a fender physically attacking the victim, I'm also trying to

788
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 2: discern is their significant physical difference in terms of size

789
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: and strength that would indicate I'm dealing with, let's say,

790
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: a very robust male versus a very petite woman. And

791
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: there's sometimes is evidence that that can be done. Here,

792
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: we don't have that type of evidence because a vehicle

793
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: is used. So now it's like, well, who was a

794
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: husband having affairs with and could they have motive to

795
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: get rid of Dorothy because they want the husband for themselves.

796
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: They want to have become the beneficiary of his estate

797
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: and live the high life. And this is now a

798
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: woman in a planned attack taken out Dorothy and then

799
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: grabbing the jewelry again, possibly to stage a robbery. That

800
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: would be a side of this investigation that needs to

801
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: be dug into, not just the men in Dorothy's life.

802
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 4: I agree.

803
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: Based on season four of tenfold More Wicked, which was

804
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: about Claire Phillips in la a woman who thought her

805
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: husband was having affair with a woman named Alberta Meadows,

806
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: and she lured Alberta and another person up to the

807
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: top of a remote area and beat Alberta to death,

808
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: and people didn't believe that a woman was capable of

809
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: doing that. However, when I was thinking about this case,

810
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: you and I have come back to who would have

811
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: access to her car and who would she get in

812
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: a car with, So if he were having an affair,

813
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: perhaps with one of her close friends, that I could

814
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 1: see unless she's drugged, which was another theory that we had,

815
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: and you know, she's drugged and she doesn't really have

816
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: much of a choice. But I was just thinking through that,

817
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: like who would she go up willingly with? And I'm

818
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: not sure it would be with a woman that he's

819
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: sleeping with. But we don't know who he was sleeping

820
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: with because the press really never pursued them.

821
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: And this starts going back to where was she killed? Yeah,

822
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: or incapacitated? At if Heinrich is saying, well, it doesn't

823
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: look like she's killed here.

824
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 3: There's a lack of blood.

825
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: And if her injuries are such, and I imagine they were,

826
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 2: there's typically a lot of blood in the hicular accident

827
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: or arhicular homicide scenes, and he's saying, hold on, where's

828
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: the blood, right, then he may be correct that she

829
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: had been transported there. Now, if she had been killed

830
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: elsewhere as it possible that it was a act of

831
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: homicide that.

832
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: Did not result in bloodshed.

833
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: Let's say it's strangulation, and then she's put into her

834
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: vehicle and then the offender drives out there. Now the

835
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 2: jagat driving indicating maybe a struggle, might suggest that she

836
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,959
Speaker 2: hadn't actually died but reanimated, and then now the.

837
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 3: Fight is on inside the vehicle. Yeah, but then there'd

838
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: be a lot.

839
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: Of blood at this scene after her being run over

840
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 2: five times. I'm a little bit concerned about the lack

841
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: of blood at the scene. A dead body is still

842
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: a reservoir of blood. You know, you don't have the

843
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: active pumping of the heart if they're truly dead. But

844
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: when a body is crushed open, you can still have

845
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: leakage that would be significant. You know, you have reservoirs

846
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 2: of blood within your large blood vessels, organs and stuff.

847
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: So depending on what injury her body had, I would

848
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 2: want to see that to assess, well, is the blood

849
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: that is present at the scene consistent. You know, vehicles

850
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: can just decimate a body, tear bodies apart. If these

851
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: are just closed crushing injuries. So maybe some evulsion, you know,

852
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: you see avulsion where tissue is torn off of bone

853
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: and stuff. Maybe the amount of blood at the scene

854
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: is consistent with her being killed there, you know. So

855
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: this is again, this is where it's the autopsy is

856
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 2: so critical and in this day and age, when I

857
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: go into a case, first thing I always look at

858
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: is the autopsy. I need to know what happened to

859
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: the victim, what the offender did to the victim, and

860
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: then the victim's injuries and how that would influence evidence

861
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: at the scene. Was she killed right there by the vehicle,

862
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: or was she possibly incapacitated and or killed elsewhere, blood elsewhere,

863
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 2: and then transport.

864
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 3: It to this location where now she's run over multiple times.

865
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: I think it is the latter because there's no struggle.

866
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: Hinrich finds no struggle inside the car like nine sure

867
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: and not all that. He finds no fingerprints, and the

868
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: press finds out and they say it's a hit man.

869
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 4: Who else would be able to do that.

870
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: It's not some dumb, jilted lover like the Lopbard Charles Peter.

871
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: It's not a Persian prince. This is somebody who knew

872
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: what he was doing.

873
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the no fingerprints.

874
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: This vehicle is obviously a vehicle that multiple people have

875
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: been in and out of. Fingerprints they are deposited, of

876
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: course when people touch various surfaces, but the surfaces have

877
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: to be amenable to holding onto those fingerprints in a

878
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: way that they ultimately can be recovered and identified. Back

879
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty, Heinrich is probably using or the CSI

880
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: was probably just using a very crude black powder technique

881
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: on surfaces that may not be amenable. There could be

882
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: texture to these surfaces. There could be a lot of

883
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: fabric surfaces inside this vehicle. The windows and stuff possibly

884
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: are never touched by people who get in and out

885
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: of this vehicle.

886
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 4: People use driving gloves in the thirties.

887
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 3: Well, this is.

888
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: Where in modern day, you know, I've had to review

889
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: cases where, let's say you have a robbery at a

890
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: fast food restaurant, very greasy. They're at the front counter,

891
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: the guns pointed at them, cash register, the.

892
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 3: Money's taken out.

893
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: Deputy responds, and some agencies they don't have trained csis

894
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 2: for this type of crime.

895
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: It's just a deputy. And then I read the deputies report.

896
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,959
Speaker 2: He says, I dusted with black powder, found no fingerprints,

897
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: And I say bs, because you will find fingerprints in

898
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: a fast food restaurant. That tells me this deputy didn't

899
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 2: do a thorough job. This is what we call pr dust.

900
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: He's making a show, he's being lazy and goes, oh,

901
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: no fingerprints. I've got a vehicle where multiple people have

902
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: been inside and out of how come no fingerprints are found.

903
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: There's likely going to be some smudges and potentially ridge

904
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: patterns from prior occasions on surfaces. This is where I

905
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 2: call into question the veracity of the fingerprint process that

906
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: was done, possibly just due to the lack of modern technologies.

907
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: With different types of newer powders or magnetic powder or

908
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: even super glue cars. If this was a homicide, that

909
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: would be something we would step up to out in

910
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: the field. So to conclude that the person was a

911
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: professional hit man because they leave any latent prints behind,

912
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: that doesn't wash with me at all.

913
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 4: Well, Heinbrich was really good at pulling prince.

914
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: He had done that in the Fatty arboical case in

915
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, and he used a couple of different

916
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: methods to pull prints. That is possible though, but also

917
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: this is not an error. There's no CSI New York

918
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: or CSI Miami. People don't know enough in the nineteen

919
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: thirties about forensics to know that they can get caught

920
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: really using fingerprints.

921
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: So it's an interesting theory.

922
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: And because of the lack of blood that she had

923
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: not been killed at the scene, that she had been

924
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: killed somewhere else, And so they really started looking at

925
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: alibis and suspects, and Charles Peter actually had a really

926
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: solid alibi with several people who knew where he was

927
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: that night, and then the Prince had an alibi, and

928
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: nobody really suspected the Prince Frank Moremeister is a different story.

929
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: He had one really bad alibi and one shaky alibi.

930
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: He was alone the whole night, which you know many

931
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: of us are, I mean half the time in my life.

932
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: If I were accused of committing a crime, I.

933
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 4: Had of allows the alibi too. So he was out driving.

934
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: Alone for half the night, and the other part of

935
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: the night he was alone at the movies.

936
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: He's saying he's out driving around alone.

937
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: By himself, and he couldn't really say where but by himself.

938
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: And he also had a nurse who saw him at home,

939
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: so he was sort of out and about. People said

940
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: they saw him at the movie, but they weren't one

941
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: hundred percent sure he was saying I was driving on

942
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: the road.

943
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 4: It was all very sketchy.

944
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: This is where it does come into establishing the veracity

945
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: of the alibi. And that's what's so important. If an

946
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: individual's alibi is being established by a close person to

947
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 2: the suspect, always have to consider that that witness is

948
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: lying just because of their relationship with the suspect. So

949
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: this really becomes a low bar type alibi where I

950
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: don't put any weight on it. You mentioned Charles was

951
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: alibied out by multiple witnesses. Well, who are those witnesses?

952
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 2: Are they friends of his? Or did he show up

953
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: at a public location? And these people independently who don't

954
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 2: know him say, yeah, that guy was here. Well that

955
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: establishes a little bit better of an alibi for me.

956
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: Good alibis like today, of course, is you've got video

957
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: surveillance at a location and there's no question that the

958
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: suspect is at this location at the time the homicide occurred.

959
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 2: And this is a high bar type alibi. So Frank

960
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: is out driving alone when Dorothy is out in her

961
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: vehicle being killed by her vehicle. To me, this is

962
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: where I'm I'm hearing that I'm going okay? Is he

963
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: weaving some truth into a lie?

964
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: He might be, And so then you have to think

965
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: what is the motive? And I know what you're gonna

966
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: say while his wife is having an affair and.

967
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 4: She's running away.

968
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: But according to Dorothy's sister, Dorothy did not believe that

969
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: Frank knew anything about the prince, and he seemed genuinely

970
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: pretty shocked when the police presented him with the letters

971
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: and the fact that she had saved six thousand dollars

972
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: and he didn't know it. However, Dorothy's sister said that

973
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to read this quote because I think it's interesting.

974
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: Dorothy told her I have something on the doctor he

975
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: knows nothing about, so something incriminating. He would give me

976
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: eighty thousand dollars just to avoid the publicity. And just

977
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: so you know, that's about one point three million dollars

978
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: right now. So she's telling her sister that she has

979
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: information on her husband that she can use to blackmail

980
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: him for almost a million and a half dollars. That

981
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: seems like a bigger motive than a person prints or

982
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: any number of affairs that he probably knew she was having.

983
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, now this really does become a big deal. Okay,

984
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: now you start stacking up the clues this extortion that

985
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: Dorothy was going to do for her own personal gain

986
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: at the expense of I'm not sure you know what

987
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: she was going to extoor tom On, but his public reputation.

988
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: Potentially he could suffer business losses. Who knows what exactly was,

989
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: but obviously it was going to be a very negative

990
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: thing for her husband. And Dorothy almost sounds like, I mean,

991
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 2: how could she if she's extorting him for his money,

992
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: you know, the equivalent of one point three million dollars today.

993
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 2: That tells me, well, she wasn't planning on staying with him.

994
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: She's planning on taking that money and going to one

995
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: of her suitors, and it sounds like it's going to

996
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: be the Prince. So obviously, if the husband was truly

997
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 2: in love with her at some point, he's now going, well,

998
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 2: I can't have this happen. I can't possibly let her

999
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: walk away as my money or divulge that information. So

1000
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 2: now it's like she needs to be eliminated so I

1001
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 2: can hold on to my wealth and I could hold

1002
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,959
Speaker 2: on to my reputation. Whatever was going to be hurt

1003
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: by the details that she was willing to go public with.

1004
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: Well, you're right about all that, because what it sounds

1005
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: like she was going to go public with is that

1006
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: the well respected doctor was performing illegal.

1007
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 3: Abortions in Salt Lake City.

1008
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the nineteen thirties during prohibition.

1009
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 4: Yes.

1010
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: Yes, And obviously the religious philosophy in that area is

1011
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: not going to be too accepting of what he's doing.

1012
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he would have lost his license. It would have

1013
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: been very, very damaging. So this becomes awkward for our

1014
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: forensic scientists, because do we remember who hired him?

1015
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: That is an interesting little twist there, and that's where

1016
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: did the husband have so much confidence that he covered

1017
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 2: his tracks that there's no way Heinrich would ever discover

1018
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: the sordid details that would basically point fingers back at

1019
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: the husband and getting back to this professional hit. Did

1020
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 2: the husband have a connection to somebody where now he's

1021
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: at least one step removed from the actual act of violence,

1022
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: so he has further confidence that it would to come

1023
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 2: back to him. But anytime you bring somebody else into

1024
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: a homicide, you always have to worry about that other

1025
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,919
Speaker 2: person coming forward. So now that other person gets eliminated,

1026
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: to be able to prevent that person from coming forward,

1027
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: and that would be part of the inquirer I would

1028
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 2: now be making in terms of who's this other person

1029
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 2: if that exists, if I can alibi out the husband.

1030
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 2: But I think he is truly the reason why Dorothy

1031
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: is killed, But he's not the killer. Who is he

1032
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: reaching out to in order to be able to get

1033
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 2: her killed in order to preserve his reputation and his wealth.

1034
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: Well, this is what Heinrich can go and then I'll

1035
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: just see what you think. What he believed happened was

1036
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: that the man who hired him, Frank mooremeister, he himself

1037
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: killed Dorothy. He went back and he looked at the

1038
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: back of her head and the puncture and the whole

1039
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: through her hat. And Dorothy had had a bit of

1040
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: absinthe in her system. How would you describe absinthe. I've

1041
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: never had it before, Frankly.

1042
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: Well, I've only had absinthe.

1043
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 4: I should have known you had it.

1044
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 2: I yeah, you know, I sipped the bottle of absinthe

1045
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 2: over the course of a week or so.

1046
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 4: Wow.

1047
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: And you know it's predominantly alcohol, and then it also

1048
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 2: has wormwood. You know, it's got this chemical compound, this

1049
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: fu jone, which I'm not sure that's the way to

1050
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: pronounce it.

1051
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: It's a spirit just like anything else.

1052
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 2: Alcohol is the predominant drug that is present in absinthe.

1053
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: Sounds like she was.

1054
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 4: Kind of doped a little bit, I mean, just a

1055
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 4: little buzzed.

1056
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 2: Mabe.

1057
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1058
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 2: Well, now, is this circular wound on the back of

1059
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: her neck? Is this something that has any size to

1060
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: it that Heinrich describes.

1061
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: He thinks it was a small and I remember this

1062
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: as a doctor. He thinks it was a puncture wound,

1063
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: as in he came up behind her. She was a

1064
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: little loopy from the absence. She went to a hotel

1065
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: with some friends and they dropped her off oka and

1066
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: he shoved what I imagine would be sort of like a

1067
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: hat pin, but I don't know the best way right

1068
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: at the point in her neck where it would have

1069
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: just killed her and there would have been a minimal

1070
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: amount of blood.

1071
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

1072
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: Well, almost as if you have an ice pick going

1073
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: into her brain stem, right yep, which yeah, obviously would

1074
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: be very serious to the victim, if not cause death.

1075
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 2: If he knows what he's doing, and he's a medical doctor,

1076
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: so he probably knows how to inflict that type of injury.

1077
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 2: I would imagine if she's looped up on alcohol to

1078
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: where she's a little less aware of the doctor coming up,

1079
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 2: and then if he just does the ice pick to

1080
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 2: the brain stem, yeah, very little blood, and now she

1081
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: could be transported in her own vehicle without any blood

1082
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: being found in the vehicle, and then put on the

1083
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 2: road and then run over multiple ti times to make

1084
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: it look like a vehicular accident. She was a pedestrian

1085
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: and yep, you know it's interesting the doctor taking the

1086
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 2: jewelry back.

1087
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: Well, and what Heinrich believes is he does not believe

1088
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: that more Meister actually deposited her. He thinks he hired somebody, okay,

1089
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: and he believes that more Meister was in and about,

1090
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, he was at the movies, and a couple

1091
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: of people said, yeah, we saw him at the movies,

1092
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: and that his alibi wasn't so tight that he could

1093
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: get away with killing her because he was at home

1094
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: and she came home, but that it was around that

1095
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: the alibi was structured enough so that he would have

1096
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: wanted somebody to take her out. There were lots of

1097
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: people available. The kind of kicker with this case is

1098
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: that nobody was convicted. They couldn't get a conviction out

1099
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: of anybody. Somebody confessed in sixty four to be the

1100
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: person who took her out and ran her over, but

1101
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: it turns out he read all of the details from

1102
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: a true detective magazine. Yeah, and it turns out he

1103
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: wanted to be transferred from Texas to Utah because he

1104
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: thought he was going to get sort of better treatment

1105
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 1: at a Utah jail. So this remains officially a cold case,

1106
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: an unsolved case, but Heinrich believed that the man who

1107
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: hired him was absolutely responsible.

1108
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 4: He pulled it off.

1109
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: He did the murder based on that puncture wound that

1110
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: would have counted for the lack of blood, but also

1111
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: just the lack of fight. She had no defensive wounds, nothing,

1112
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: So that seemed reasonable to me.

1113
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 4: But who knows?

1114
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: This is interesting from the husband to killing his wife.

1115
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 2: I mean she may have been dead from this wound,

1116
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: she may not have been, and then if somebody's hired

1117
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 2: to dispose of her body and run over the body,

1118
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: she may have technically still been alive. And then that

1119
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 2: person has culpability in her death. Yep, under Heinrich scenario,

1120
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't disagree with it with the information that.

1121
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 3: You've told me.

1122
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 2: In this day and age, I think yes, two people

1123
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: potentially could be charged with her homicide. It comes back

1124
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 2: to when did she die and probably point in time.

1125
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 3: There's no way to be able to determine that.

1126
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 4: I love a good mystery.

1127
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: Paul Holes, thank you for taking this trip to the

1128
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties Utah with me.

1129
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: Oh, this was another good little twist. The Persian prince

1130
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: was really catching my attention there for a second at

1131
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: least he caught Dorothy's attention.

1132
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: Right, well, I wish you the best of luck as

1133
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: you continue on with your book journey, and I'm continuing

1134
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: on with my book journey, and our paths are going

1135
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: to cross with yet another episode next week, and I'm

1136
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: really excited about that.

1137
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,479
Speaker 3: All right, I'm looking forward to it.

1138
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 4: Go pump some.

1139
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: Iron, pault. This has been an exactly right production for.

1140
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

1141
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1142
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 4: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1143
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Cavewinklerdossa.

1144
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 4: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1145
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1146
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 4: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1147
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Gramer.

1148
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1149
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: Buried Bones.

1150
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 4: Pod.

1151
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1152
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race of decode the

1153
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available for pre order now

1154
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life solving America's

1155
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.