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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Michael lewis here, Welcome back to Against the Rules.

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Speaker 1: You might have noticed from the early episodes of this

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Speaker 1: season that I've got a weakness for the old school

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Speaker 1: sports gambler, the kind who found a hard way to

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Speaker 1: make an easy living and then somehow made it even harder,

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Speaker 1: who screwed up and lived large, and took crazy risks

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Speaker 1: and eventually found some edge. No one screwed up quite

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Speaker 1: so much, or live quite so large, or found such

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Speaker 1: a sharp edge as Billy Walders. He's maybe the most

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Speaker 1: famous sports better in American history. He was born poor

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Speaker 1: in Kentucky and betting on anything that moved before he

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Speaker 1: was old enough to drink. Then he started drinking and

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Speaker 1: bet even more. He's been a car dealer, a poker champion,

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Speaker 1: and also an inmate at a federal prison after he

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Speaker 1: was convicted of insider trading. President Trump pardoned him back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. But let me let him tell

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Speaker 1: you about himself. Here he is reading from his memoir

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Speaker 1: titled Simply Gambler.

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Speaker 2: I'm a gambler, but not just any gambler. My wager

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Speaker 2: has ran the spectrum, pitching pennies and dingy racetrack bathrooms,

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Speaker 2: hustling pool and back road shanties, betting thousands of dollars

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Speaker 2: on a single putt on golf courses, and losing millions

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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas casinos. And that does include betting billions

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Speaker 2: of dollars collectively on every American sport.

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Speaker 1: Billy Walters has a lot to say about the life

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Speaker 1: he's lived in the state of legalized sports betting in

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Speaker 1: the US today. He knows where the bodies are buried,

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Speaker 1: and only narrowly escaped being buried there himself. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to devote a whole episode to our conversation. I

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Speaker 1: know you'll enjoy it. When did you first realize I

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Speaker 1: like to gamble?

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Speaker 2: From the second I was introduced to the I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I was around five years old. Probably my grandmother started

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Speaker 2: leaving me my uncle's pool room when I was four.

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Speaker 2: I know for sure the time I was six, I

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Speaker 2: was playing penny nine ball. But the first time I

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Speaker 2: did any type of gambling, it was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: a child being introduced to sugar.

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Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think you enjoyed it? You wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: put it into words when you're six years old, But

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Speaker 1: when you look back on it, What do you think

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Speaker 1: you liked about it?

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Speaker 2: I think even at that age, although I never consciously

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Speaker 2: thought about it, I got a rush out of it.

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Speaker 3: I think there was. I think there was a rush.

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Speaker 3: I think there was, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, who who doesn't like to win? From as

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Speaker 2: far back as I can remember, I've been competitive, But

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Speaker 2: the gambling part, I think the main reason is.

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Speaker 3: The rush from it. You had that rush right away,

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to fast forward to this transition

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Speaker 1: in your career where you go from being what you

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Speaker 1: described as a degenerate gambler to an edge player.

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Speaker 2: When I lived in a small town in Kentucky, Muffordville,

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Speaker 2: I became a pretty good pool player. And then when

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Speaker 2: I got out of high school, I wanted the automobile business,

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Speaker 2: and I started making more money than I'd ever imagined.

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Speaker 2: And as a result, I had access to more money

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Speaker 2: and started betting sports and started playing poker. And really

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Speaker 2: I had no reason to have any type of an age.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm using a goal sheet and picking all

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Speaker 2: games out of that. I mean, I wasn't better on

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Speaker 2: my favorite teams. I wasn't dumb enough to do that.

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Speaker 2: But I was probably even dumber. I had a goal

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Speaker 2: sheet and thought I knew something about it, and that's

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Speaker 2: how initially started betting sports and then golf from day one.

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Speaker 2: Though I was never really a sucker when it came

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Speaker 2: to match it up playing golf because it was a

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Speaker 2: lot like pool, So I didn't take any of the

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Speaker 2: worst of it playing golf.

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Speaker 1: Ever, where did you take the worst of it?

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Speaker 2: I took the worst of it betting sports. And this

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Speaker 2: is the reason that I have concerns about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the potential addiction in the way things are going with

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Speaker 2: legalized sports betting. There's a tremendous amount of addiction out

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Speaker 2: there that exists.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: I was one of those people. That's the reason I

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Speaker 2: can talk about this. The only person that doesn't have

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Speaker 2: a place at the table right now is a player.

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Speaker 2: You know, you've got regulators, you've got operators, and regulators

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Speaker 2: don't know anything about it. They've been told what to

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Speaker 2: do by basically the lobbyists who were either ex regulators

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Speaker 2: or ex politicians who the operators have hired. So essentially,

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Speaker 2: the operators have created a vironment where it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's very very conducive to their business into them but

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Speaker 2: it's not in the long term best interest of legalized

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Speaker 2: sports betting, you know. And I got introduced to sports

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Speaker 2: betting and I had money, and uh, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: the same old story. You know, you get loser, and

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Speaker 2: you tell yourself the story. You know, as soon as

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Speaker 2: I get even, I'm gonna quit. Well, two things either happen.

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Speaker 2: You never you never get even, or you do get even,

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Speaker 2: you think, well, I got to figure it out. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm going to beat them, and you still don't quit.

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Speaker 2: And uh, you know, you're you definitely have a mathematical

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Speaker 2: disadvantage if you're just picking bowl games with no information whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: But as I got access to more money, I got

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Speaker 2: invited to go to Las Vegas, and uh, and you know,

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Speaker 2: clearly that was an eye opener. I mean it's like

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Speaker 2: you know, a wild dog in a meet house. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. The games were always too small,

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Speaker 2: nobody would ever play for a lot of money. But

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Speaker 2: when I got to Las Vegas, I was different. And

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Speaker 2: of course I'm playing games I had a mathematical advantage in,

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Speaker 2: but the limits were they were much higher. So, man,

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Speaker 2: Las Vegas, I love that, But my problem during that

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Speaker 2: period of time was drinking. When I didn't drink, I

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Speaker 2: was a really tough guy to beat down his money,

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Speaker 2: you know, whether it was poker, whether it was golf.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, I was a winning player.

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Speaker 2: But the problem was a drinking and I didn't think

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Speaker 2: I had a problem with it because I didn't really

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Speaker 2: drink that often. You know, I would drink, and when

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Speaker 2: I did drink, I would get hammered and the dumbest

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Speaker 2: decisions I were made. I mean I made those while

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Speaker 2: I was drinking, But once that night was over, I

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Speaker 2: didn't drink again for like three weeks months sometime.

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: So I never dreamed I really had a problem of

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Speaker 2: drinking until after a number of years. I kept looking back,

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Speaker 2: and every problem that I ever created for myself, whether

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Speaker 2: it be financial or personal, they all came from drink.

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Speaker 1: When do you cease to be a degenerate gambler and

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Speaker 1: when do you become something else?

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Speaker 2: When I moved to Las, say yes, my money management

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Speaker 2: skills were blow average. I had a difficult time going

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Speaker 2: to bed loser regardless of of you know, whether I

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Speaker 2: had the best of it or not. But anyway, once

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Speaker 2: Chip became my partner. He probably was as good a

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Speaker 2: manager with managing money as any gambler I ever met

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Speaker 2: in my life. And I think there were times probably

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Speaker 2: that he was a little too conservative, but overall, at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, looking back at it, I

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Speaker 2: think he made the best decisions of anyone I've seen,

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Speaker 2: and by being his partner, you know, after a period

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Speaker 2: of time, I saw what he was doing was right.

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Speaker 1: What kind of things was he doing that you weren't

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Speaker 1: doing well?

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Speaker 2: As example, I mean, if we had eight games to

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Speaker 2: bet on a Sunday, if we were to go one

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Speaker 2: in seven and we had one play left, we didn't

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Speaker 2: bet any more any less on that game than what

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Speaker 2: we were supposed to bet, or if we had no

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Speaker 2: plays left, we went to bed. What I was doing

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Speaker 2: is if we'd gone one in seven, there was one

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Speaker 2: game left, whether I had a better or not, I

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Speaker 2: was going to bet on it. And then the other

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Speaker 2: thing I would do, if it was a small, I

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Speaker 2: would end up playing it as a large or something

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Speaker 2: such as that. So that was Those are the main

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Speaker 2: things that he was doing that I wasn't doing.

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Speaker 3: He was rule based very much, so yes, yes, you

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Speaker 3: weren't not in the least no, but anyway, so after

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Speaker 3: a very short period of time, I saw he was right,

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Speaker 3: and then I became le based on everything that I

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Speaker 3: did until I drank. And then, you know, as the example,

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Speaker 3: I accumulated a million dollars and I went out one

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Speaker 3: night again drinking, got drunk, lost the entire million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Once another two thousand dollars. I did that again, only

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Speaker 3: the next time it was a two million dollars. And

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Speaker 3: then finally there was an incident that came up that

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Speaker 3: made me decide that I was never going to drink again.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. Then hear all

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Speaker 1: about that incident. I'm back with Billy Walters talking about

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Speaker 1: the sensational turn his gambling life took back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty seven after he quit drinking.

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Speaker 2: I had a good friend. His name was Freddie Ferris,

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Speaker 2: his nickname was Sarge. He was a poker player in

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Speaker 2: Las Vegas, very successful poker player, and he had been

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Speaker 2: diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor and lung cancer. And

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Speaker 2: I was a smoker at the time, and I went

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Speaker 2: out that night with another friend. I was really depressed,

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Speaker 2: started drinking. I went to the horseshoe started gambling and

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Speaker 2: had an incident with one of the owners, Ted Benyon,

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Speaker 2: and really made a fool of myself. I got up

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Speaker 2: the next day and I felt so bad about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the incident, so I called up.

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Speaker 3: Check Benion, his older brother.

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Speaker 2: Apologized, He accepted my apology, and I decided that that

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Speaker 2: day that look, I'm not going to make a fool

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Speaker 2: of myself anymore. This will be the last call I

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Speaker 2: left to make and make this apology. So I quit

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Speaker 2: drinking and I quit smoking the same day. I knew

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Speaker 2: at that point in time that smoking was harmful. I

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Speaker 2: was addicted like everyone else was. But when Sarage, when

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Speaker 2: he was diagnosed, you know, that was a final deciding

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Speaker 2: factor for me.

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Speaker 1: So you are probably a rare person who went to

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Speaker 1: Vegas and shed himself advices.

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Speaker 2: True, very rare, because at the time I was also

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Speaker 2: a professional poker player along with betting sports, and I

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Speaker 2: had just won the Super Bowl of Poker that year

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Speaker 2: I think it was in eighty six. And when I

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Speaker 2: decided to quit smoking, I decided to quit playing poker too,

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Speaker 2: because the court rooms at that time.

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Speaker 3: Were full of smoke. So I quit playing poker.

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Speaker 2: And basically quit playing high stakes, golf, and I really

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Speaker 2: focused on nothing but sports betting. I was doing sports

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Speaker 2: three hunder and sixty five days a year. Baseball, basketball, golf, hockey, tennis.

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Speaker 1: Was the sports at that point consistently profitable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very much.

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Speaker 2: So what happened with me in the sports is Michael

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Speaker 2: Kent was the first guy who had written a software

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Speaker 2: program to handicapped sports. Up until that point, everyone was

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Speaker 2: doing sports with a pencil and piece of paper, and

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Speaker 2: Michael really revolutionized the way that handicapping was done. He

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Speaker 2: was a mathematician, but he also loved sports. But I

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Speaker 2: realized after we became associated within a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: that he eventually was going to lose his entire competitive

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Speaker 2: advantage if he couldn't continue to find things that others

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Speaker 2: didn't recognize. So I started recruiting other people with similar

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Speaker 2: skill sets, and I also started recruiting people who knew

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Speaker 2: the qualitative side of the sports business very well. And then,

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, I've been doing it for some

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Speaker 2: time and have become pretty good being able to manage

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Speaker 2: a market of it. So I was essentially taking a

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Speaker 2: consensus of what these people were doing and then factoring

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Speaker 2: in both their strengths and weaknesses, and then factoring in,

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Speaker 2: you know, a gambler side of the thing that they

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Speaker 2: didn't understand. And and and that's what I was doing

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Speaker 2: betting sports.

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Speaker 1: Is that is that the computer group.

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Speaker 3: The computer group was Michael Kent.

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Speaker 1: Whi's the first thing you see where he has predictive

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Speaker 1: power that you can put to use.

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Speaker 2: Before I came to Las Vegas and Kentucky, I was,

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Speaker 2: I was betting sports, and I was booking sports, and

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Speaker 2: I was handicapping sports myself. I didn't do anything at all

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Speaker 2: about computers. I did everything with pencil and paper. I

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Speaker 2: was I had power ratings, and of course I had

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Speaker 2: player values. I had all those things. But I'm betting

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Speaker 2: sports and I'm booking, and I'm shading my numbers based

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Speaker 2: upon my opinion. And then uh, there's a guy that

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Speaker 2: I knew that was betting me from Pittsburgh, and uh,

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Speaker 2: the guy was consistently went and I saw after about

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Speaker 2: three weeks, I said, this guy's a showy. The money

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Speaker 2: was coming from Kent, the so called computer group, and

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Speaker 2: take their bets. I would adjust my numbers accordingly, and

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Speaker 2: then I would get rid of their bets and go

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 3: And then.

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Speaker 2: As the more successful that they became, that they needed

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Speaker 2: more market, and they all had market in New York

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Speaker 2: and in Las Vegas. I basically had the rest of

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Speaker 2: the country. And so they approached me about, you know,

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Speaker 2: giving me the order instead of betting me and I

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Speaker 2: would move the order and share the order of them,

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Speaker 2: and I agreed.

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Speaker 3: To do that.

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Speaker 1: This is really interesting to me because it's the birth

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Speaker 1: of something new in gambling.

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Speaker 3: It's like the sand wedge and golf. It is.

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Speaker 2: It really was, and there's no question about it. It

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Speaker 2: was like the sand wedge and golf. As you know,

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Speaker 2: when you really think about sports, how many things have

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Speaker 2: happened in regards to sports as far as handicapping sports

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Speaker 2: are concerned. That truly make a difference. But as you

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Speaker 2: noted earlier and very correctly, so, you know, it's computer

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Speaker 2: and software are worth nothing. The information is the only

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Speaker 2: thing that's inside of that software that has any value.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when I wrote the book that I wrote,

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Speaker 2: I put everything in the world in there that I

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Speaker 2: know about handicapping sports. I also put everything I knew

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Speaker 2: in there about basic betting strategy, which frankly, between you

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Speaker 2: and I, I think that's more important.

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Speaker 1: Giving me example of a betting strategy that doesn't naturally

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Speaker 1: occur to people when they enter a market.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to explain to you what probably ninety

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Speaker 2: plus percent of these new betters are doing. They have

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Speaker 2: one account. Someone paid them a bonus. They have one

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Speaker 2: account at the very most. They have to you know,

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Speaker 2: they have no ideas for strategies concerned in regards to

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Speaker 2: which way the line is going to move or isn't

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Speaker 2: going to move, and they probably really don't understand the

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Speaker 2: value of certain numbers. Well, if a game six and

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Speaker 2: a half and you're looking to take seven, why it's

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Speaker 2: so important to wait and try to get some of

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Speaker 2: them instead of taking six and a half. Most of

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Speaker 2: them don't have any money management system at all. So

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Speaker 2: the basic betting strategy I put in there was real simple,

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Speaker 2: get as many accounts as you can that are illegal,

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Speaker 2: and you feel like some you know, you get paid.

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Speaker 2: It's just like any any type shopping. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: you decide you want to buy, you know, a pair

288
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Speaker 2: of shoes and a brand name pair of shoes, you

289
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Speaker 2: can go up on the internet and there's probably one

290
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Speaker 2: hundred places you shop for for you know, for different sizes, colors,

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Speaker 2: and prices. With sports vetting, basically they've created one operating

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Speaker 2: the United States. You've got a handful of companies to

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Speaker 2: control the entire thing. So what they've done as a result,

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Speaker 2: as situations I've described with the average new better, they've

295
00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:16,196
Speaker 2: got one account maybe two of the most. Okay, if

296
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Speaker 2: there's better numbers out there, they're completely oblivious to that.

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Speaker 3: They have no.

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Speaker 2: Clue about how the money line compares to the point spread.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is a betting strategy, the importance of numbers.

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Speaker 2: You know the value of three, the number of the

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Speaker 2: value is seven, six, ten. Okay, some numbers are a

302
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Speaker 2: lot more important than other numbers are. If you don't

303
00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:45,516
Speaker 2: understand that when it comes to betting strategy, you know

304
00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:48,956
Speaker 2: you could be making some huge mistakes. A lot of

305
00:17:48,996 --> 00:17:51,276
Speaker 2: times you're better off betting on a money line than

306
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Speaker 2: you are the point spread, because you know they offer

307
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Speaker 2: money lines out there. Okay, let's say the line on

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Speaker 2: the game I use three as the example is three. Well,

309
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Speaker 2: if you're betting on the underdog, you may be able

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Speaker 2: to take a money line price. This equivalent to taking

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Speaker 2: three in a quarter, three and a third, or even

312
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Speaker 2: three and a half sometimes, But if you don't know

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Speaker 2: how to compare those two the true value of those

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Speaker 2: how would you know, right, Because there's there's no legitimate

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Speaker 2: place that you can go to that's accurate. If you're

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Speaker 2: not a handicapper, you're not anything.

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Speaker 1: When you first meet Michael Kent, what you're bringing to

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Speaker 1: the table is both access to markets and betting strategy.

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Speaker 2: Access to market and betting strategy is correct because when

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Speaker 2: it became the betting strategy, he was an office himself,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the things, the things that I could

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Speaker 2: do was you know, was not only the betting strategy,

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Speaker 2: but I could bet you know, larger, much larger amounts

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Speaker 2: of money than he could ever bet.

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Speaker 1: But he had a superior ability to predict what was

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Speaker 1: going to happen in the games.

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Speaker 3: No question at the time, at the time I met him,

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Speaker 3: and for a period.

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Speaker 2: Of uh I would say four years, he was an

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Speaker 2: illege of his own.

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Speaker 1: You know, in your book, where it gets to me

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Speaker 1: especially interesting in them in the insights that you all

333
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Speaker 1: generate is when you're telling me things about the sport

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Speaker 1: that I didn't appreciate that you know, for example, Josh Allen,

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Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill's quarterback is better in warm weather than in

336
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Speaker 1: cold weather, or Aaron Rodgers is the reverse. Was there

337
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Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of stuff early on, like

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Speaker 1: player tendencies, how teams performed in certain in different environments,

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Speaker 1: the kind of this is the predictive stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's just well, I've kind of generally I've known that

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Speaker 2: since the early eighties. It's you know, it's all gotten

342
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Speaker 2: better over the years, and that information is than a book,

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Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, it goes back to the seventies. I mean,

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Speaker 2: so you're talking about information that's been collected over a

345
00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:06,836
Speaker 2: period of fifty years, and it's been as the world's changed,

346
00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:12,036
Speaker 2: as players have changed, have changed, as stadiums have changed.

347
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Speaker 2: That's all been refined accordingly.

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Speaker 1: Another break here. When we come back, it'll be to

349
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Speaker 1: find the FBI knocking on Billy Walters front door. I'm

350
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Speaker 1: back with sports gambler. Billy Walters described for me, just

351
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Speaker 1: pay me a picture of the difference between the illegal

352
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Speaker 1: and the legal sports betting markets.

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Speaker 2: Is there any difference, Yeah, there's a master difference. There

354
00:20:48,476 --> 00:20:50,876
Speaker 2: was a master efference back in those days. The legal

355
00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:53,676
Speaker 2: betting markets to Las Vegas, you could bet a lot

356
00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:55,276
Speaker 2: more money in the early eighties and you can bet

357
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Speaker 2: there today. Frankly, who you talk to in Las Vegas,

358
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Speaker 2: they'll tell you it's been very bad for Las Vegas.

359
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Speaker 2: You've got four or five companies have created a monopoly

360
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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas. So in the early eighties, you had

361
00:21:07,676 --> 00:21:11,436
Speaker 2: say thirty casinos and they all had sportsbooks, and you

362
00:21:11,516 --> 00:21:17,196
Speaker 2: had thirty thirty different you know, business men entrepreneurs running them,

363
00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:20,756
Speaker 2: and they were competing against each other. And today you've

364
00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:25,676
Speaker 2: got four or five and they've got a monopoly. The

365
00:21:25,716 --> 00:21:32,276
Speaker 2: illegal sports betting world. Up until things got regulated in

366
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Speaker 2: other parts of the US, I would say you could

367
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Speaker 2: probably bet twenty times as much money.

368
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Speaker 3: As you could bet in Las Vegas. Oh yeah, maybe

369
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Speaker 3: twenty five times back then. Yeah, And even today you

370
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Speaker 3: could bet probably five times as much money and the

371
00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:52,716
Speaker 3: illegal market as you could bet. You bet more than that.

372
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Speaker 2: You can probably bet ten times morning and the illegal

373
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Speaker 2: market than you could. You look at it, I mean

374
00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:02,916
Speaker 2: so called legalized sports betting in the world. Today, you've

375
00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:08,476
Speaker 2: got Fandel, You've got you've got Caesar's, You've got MGM,

376
00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:09,916
Speaker 2: and you've got DraftKings.

377
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Speaker 3: You got basically four of them to control the entire market.

378
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Speaker 1: How did the FBI mistake. The Computer Group is a bookie.

379
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Speaker 2: First of all, there never been any there never been

380
00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:26,796
Speaker 2: any organized group of sports betters ever. Okay, So if

381
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Speaker 2: you're an FBI agent, the only thing you've seen up

382
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Speaker 2: on this point in time that the people that were

383
00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:37,436
Speaker 2: organized were bookmakers and the mob. Okay, and and and

384
00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:41,916
Speaker 2: you know major metropolitan cities, you know the bookmakers were,

385
00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:44,396
Speaker 2: you know they were. Everybody says they were part of

386
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Speaker 2: the mob. I can tell you what part of the

387
00:22:45,596 --> 00:22:47,316
Speaker 2: mob they were. They were being shut down and they

388
00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:50,116
Speaker 2: didn't pay them. Mob they kill them. So if you

389
00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:51,516
Speaker 2: want to make them part of the mob, that makes

390
00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:55,196
Speaker 2: them part of the mob. So Computer Group comes along

391
00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:58,596
Speaker 2: and in Las Leg it's a time we probably had

392
00:22:58,596 --> 00:23:01,996
Speaker 2: thirty thirty five people and we're betting millions of dollars

393
00:23:02,036 --> 00:23:05,956
Speaker 2: on sports. And then on top of that, the guy

394
00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:08,796
Speaker 2: was one of the original members of the Computer Group

395
00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:14,716
Speaker 2: was Ivan Mendelein, and unbknownst to anyone in the group

396
00:23:14,756 --> 00:23:19,596
Speaker 2: at the time, he was doing business with an organized

397
00:23:19,596 --> 00:23:24,676
Speaker 2: crime figure, the guy named Dominic Spinelle and Ivan Mendelein

398
00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:27,476
Speaker 2: had opened up a sports betting account at the Startust

399
00:23:27,476 --> 00:23:33,356
Speaker 2: hotel in Dominic Spinelli's name and he was betting on

400
00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:34,756
Speaker 2: sports on that account.

401
00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:35,876
Speaker 3: And what Ivan.

402
00:23:35,636 --> 00:23:38,676
Speaker 2: Mendela was doing is is he in an agreement with

403
00:23:38,756 --> 00:23:42,436
Speaker 2: the computer guys that basically going to be ran like

404
00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:46,236
Speaker 2: a a corporation. You know, they were going to make

405
00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:48,956
Speaker 2: their bets. Each person had a certain percentage, but they

406
00:23:48,956 --> 00:23:51,396
Speaker 2: weren't going to bet outside the group. They weren't going

407
00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:53,796
Speaker 2: to do you know, they weren't allowed to do that. Well,

408
00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:57,716
Speaker 2: he was cheating. He was doing that and one of

409
00:23:57,716 --> 00:23:59,516
Speaker 2: the people he was doing it with was this guy,

410
00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:03,956
Speaker 2: Dominic Spinelle. When FBI sees this, they begin an investigation,

411
00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:07,756
Speaker 2: and then they learned that he's also associated with Michael

412
00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:11,516
Speaker 2: Kent with me, with others, and then they see all

413
00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,396
Speaker 2: these people. They see millions of dollars and they'd never

414
00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:21,116
Speaker 2: seen a group of legalized sports betters before, so they

415
00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:25,636
Speaker 2: begin their investigation. That part I totally understand. I get it, okay,

416
00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:30,156
Speaker 2: But here's the part that you know, you can't understand.

417
00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:32,916
Speaker 2: After that, they put war taps on our phones. For

418
00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:39,156
Speaker 2: sixty days, no one ever took a bet. There were

419
00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:42,996
Speaker 2: only bets made, and it was extremely obvious. No one

420
00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:46,396
Speaker 2: in the group knew Dominic Spinelli, not one person or

421
00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:49,236
Speaker 2: there was no one in the group associated or affiliated

422
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:54,236
Speaker 2: with any kind of an organized crime figure. Well, then

423
00:24:54,356 --> 00:24:58,156
Speaker 2: after the sixty days of gathering that information, they decided

424
00:24:58,196 --> 00:25:02,516
Speaker 2: the whole mass raids sixteen or seventeen of them throughout

425
00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:06,236
Speaker 2: the United States and January of eighty five, and they

426
00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:10,036
Speaker 2: confiscated all kinds of records and information. Thinks such is

427
00:25:10,076 --> 00:25:14,476
Speaker 2: that when they looked at that, it confirmed again we

428
00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:18,196
Speaker 2: were not bookmakers, no one was associated with organized crime.

429
00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:24,716
Speaker 2: And then the case was essentially dropped for almost five years,

430
00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:28,036
Speaker 2: just before the statute of limitations right now. And then

431
00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:29,956
Speaker 2: there was a guy who wrote a book. It was

432
00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:34,596
Speaker 2: called Interference. And in this guy's book, there was a

433
00:25:34,716 --> 00:25:39,236
Speaker 2: chapter that he wrote about the Computer Group, and Peach

434
00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:42,716
Speaker 2: said the Computer group was super successful, that it had

435
00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:46,356
Speaker 2: won eight twenty five million dollars in one year, and

436
00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:52,036
Speaker 2: it referred to this case. And he inferred in there

437
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,556
Speaker 2: that the government never pursued the case was because one

438
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:57,556
Speaker 2: of the members of the group, a guy the named

439
00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:02,316
Speaker 2: merv Adelson, was married to Barbara Walters, and that Barbara

440
00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:08,076
Speaker 2: Walters was Nancy Reagan's best friend. And essentially that's the

441
00:26:08,116 --> 00:26:11,076
Speaker 2: reason they never the case. As if there were there

442
00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:15,196
Speaker 2: was a fix in which wasn't true. But as a

443
00:26:15,236 --> 00:26:19,636
Speaker 2: result of that book, Uh, and from what I understand,

444
00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:23,516
Speaker 2: it went back to Kansas City at the time, I

445
00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:27,396
Speaker 2: think was making the decisions on indictments in regards to

446
00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:30,596
Speaker 2: the strike Force, and there was a fellow back there

447
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,476
Speaker 2: who read this book and said, bullshit, there's there's no

448
00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:37,436
Speaker 2: fixes in the strike force and ordered the case to

449
00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:38,436
Speaker 2: go forward.

450
00:26:38,876 --> 00:26:44,596
Speaker 1: Huh, it's when all this is happening. Is there any

451
00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:48,396
Speaker 1: sign to you that other people are trying to imitate

452
00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:49,676
Speaker 1: or copy the Computer group?

453
00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:50,436
Speaker 3: No?

454
00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:52,676
Speaker 2: No, there were other groups out there that were betting,

455
00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:58,076
Speaker 2: that clearly organized, that were that knew what they were doing.

456
00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:01,396
Speaker 2: I mean they they weren't as good as we were.

457
00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:04,716
Speaker 2: They weren't remotely as good as we were, but you

458
00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:06,196
Speaker 2: know they they weren't ady.

459
00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:06,676
Speaker 3: It's either.

460
00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:09,356
Speaker 2: But you know, there were other groups out there that

461
00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,796
Speaker 2: had started betting that I never used in some type

462
00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:18,556
Speaker 2: of you know, computerized data thinks it's just that. But

463
00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:22,796
Speaker 2: mostly those people were specialists. They would bet on one sport,

464
00:27:23,196 --> 00:27:26,356
Speaker 2: or they would bet you know, within one sport. They

465
00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:30,036
Speaker 2: would bet on like only maybe on two, two or

466
00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:34,316
Speaker 2: three conferences. But I saw no one out there that

467
00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:37,156
Speaker 2: bet all the sports. Kent didn't bet all the sports either.

468
00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:40,116
Speaker 2: I mean I have the right I bet all the

469
00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:43,316
Speaker 2: sports because I had so many different handicappers. You know,

470
00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:48,236
Speaker 2: Kent can only he bet on college football, college basketball,

471
00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:52,396
Speaker 2: pro football for a period of time. But he really

472
00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:58,556
Speaker 2: never bet on baseball. He never bet on golf, never

473
00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:02,356
Speaker 2: bet on no one, never bet on hockey. He never

474
00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,516
Speaker 2: been on tennis. And you bet on all those yes, sir,

475
00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:05,876
Speaker 2: I did.

476
00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:07,996
Speaker 1: Are you still doing it?

477
00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 2: I'm not betting on all those sports. I still got

478
00:28:12,036 --> 00:28:16,076
Speaker 2: on football. I bet on football because I'm one. I

479
00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:19,156
Speaker 2: love sports. Number two, I'm still very good at I

480
00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:22,076
Speaker 2: still beat it, and if I didn't, I would quit.

481
00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:25,796
Speaker 1: What's the different skill set required to be a really

482
00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:27,956
Speaker 1: good book either as a really good sports candler.

483
00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:33,916
Speaker 2: Well, it's really kind of the same thing. I mean,

484
00:28:33,956 --> 00:28:36,716
Speaker 2: you have a built in advantage. You're getting eleven to ten. Okay,

485
00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:40,036
Speaker 2: So okay, that's number one. Okay, number two. If you

486
00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:42,396
Speaker 2: want to write as much business as you can possibly

487
00:28:42,396 --> 00:28:45,636
Speaker 2: write at good prices, you could have the sharpest numbers

488
00:28:45,676 --> 00:28:47,316
Speaker 2: in the world. If you don't write any business, you're

489
00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:48,756
Speaker 2: not going to make any money as a bookmaker.

490
00:28:49,156 --> 00:28:50,796
Speaker 3: On the other hand, you could write.

491
00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:52,996
Speaker 2: Billions of dollars or the business with bad numbers, you're

492
00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:55,676
Speaker 2: not going to make any money, So you want to

493
00:28:55,716 --> 00:28:59,356
Speaker 2: be able to do both. And I would say ninety

494
00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:03,156
Speaker 2: percent of people who are out there betting today, they're

495
00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:05,756
Speaker 2: giving their money to you. They can't win. Let's say

496
00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:11,356
Speaker 2: there's ten left that okay, to some degree, you need to.

497
00:29:13,396 --> 00:29:15,396
Speaker 3: Factory in what they're doing. Okay.

498
00:29:15,476 --> 00:29:17,556
Speaker 2: So if you're a bookmaker and let's say you got

499
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,076
Speaker 2: Billy Walter's betting you, okay, the key with that is

500
00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:24,196
Speaker 2: number one, you would want me betting you because you

501
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 2: would want to know what I'm betting on. Then you

502
00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:31,756
Speaker 2: need to be able to take the information that you

503
00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 2: got from me betting you and then make that useful

504
00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:37,756
Speaker 2: to you. And the way you do it, you would

505
00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 2: move your line accordingly. And the real key is you

506
00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:44,156
Speaker 2: want to get the bet as early as you can.

507
00:29:44,516 --> 00:29:46,636
Speaker 2: Early the bet you get, the more time you have

508
00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:49,756
Speaker 2: to get actions back the other way. The later you

509
00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:53,716
Speaker 2: take the bet and you're frozen with it, you're gambling,

510
00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:58,436
Speaker 2: which is stupid and smart bookmakers the only profession that

511
00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 2: I've seen, Michael that has regressed in the last twenty years,

512
00:30:02,116 --> 00:30:09,676
Speaker 2: or bookmakers. Bookmakers twenty years ago were much much smarter

513
00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:13,036
Speaker 2: and much better at book making than the guys you

514
00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:13,676
Speaker 2: have today.

515
00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:16,676
Speaker 1: Why has the book making regressed?

516
00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:22,076
Speaker 3: Or give an example, especially today with the dissemination of

517
00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:25,316
Speaker 3: information the way it is today with Twitter, with all

518
00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 3: these different things out there. Let's say you have an

519
00:30:29,436 --> 00:30:34,436
Speaker 3: injury with a sports team. Literally the betting public knows

520
00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:35,756
Speaker 3: about it in a matter.

521
00:30:35,556 --> 00:30:39,596
Speaker 2: Of you know, seconds. And let's say you're sitting there

522
00:30:39,636 --> 00:30:41,636
Speaker 2: and you're running a sports book and you don't know

523
00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:43,796
Speaker 2: about it in a matter of seconds, and you don't

524
00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:46,076
Speaker 2: change your line or you don't take your game down

525
00:30:46,076 --> 00:30:48,676
Speaker 2: off the board, you're going to get bet by a

526
00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:50,836
Speaker 2: number of people that know about it. And the only

527
00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:54,636
Speaker 2: thing they know is okay, Well the quarterbacks out okay,

528
00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:56,556
Speaker 2: But they got no sense to know that that that's

529
00:30:56,556 --> 00:31:00,036
Speaker 2: a good player and that's winning bet betting on those

530
00:31:00,076 --> 00:31:04,116
Speaker 2: type situations. Well, that sportsbook corporator sitting there, he's sleepy,

531
00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:06,396
Speaker 2: he had moved his line, and so he gets nailed.

532
00:31:06,396 --> 00:31:09,036
Speaker 2: He gets a bet from one of these people. Well,

533
00:31:09,716 --> 00:31:13,156
Speaker 2: automatically he throws the guy out for betty. Well, he

534
00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:16,116
Speaker 2: shouldn't tell the guy, that guy that made that bet.

535
00:31:16,556 --> 00:31:18,076
Speaker 2: Ninety nine percent of them are going to lose their

536
00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:20,396
Speaker 2: money because they're going to bet on other games they

537
00:31:20,396 --> 00:31:21,956
Speaker 2: don't have any information on.

538
00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:22,796
Speaker 3: It's going to happen.

539
00:31:23,156 --> 00:31:25,276
Speaker 2: But the only reason he got bet is because he

540
00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:28,316
Speaker 2: was sitting her sound asleep. If he had been paying

541
00:31:28,316 --> 00:31:30,796
Speaker 2: attention to the business, or had people paying attention to

542
00:31:30,796 --> 00:31:32,036
Speaker 2: his business.

543
00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 3: He wouldn't have got bet. He wouldn't have.

544
00:31:33,276 --> 00:31:35,076
Speaker 2: Had a coal line. That's what do you call a

545
00:31:35,076 --> 00:31:37,436
Speaker 2: coal line? When when you got a dumb bookmaker or

546
00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:41,116
Speaker 2: a lazy bookmaker that hasn't adjusted his numbers. The smart

547
00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:43,596
Speaker 2: bookmakers of the world, the guys are on top of

548
00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:45,196
Speaker 2: their game. You could never bet them on a game

549
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,436
Speaker 2: like that. Hell, they'd have a game scratched before before

550
00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:49,796
Speaker 2: the information ever came out, or when it came out,

551
00:31:49,996 --> 00:31:54,436
Speaker 2: wellin two seconds that be scratched. Okay, So you look

552
00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:58,236
Speaker 2: at CIRCA. Okay, you got a join in downtown Las Vegas.

553
00:31:59,116 --> 00:32:02,716
Speaker 2: The only people they have there are tough guys. All

554
00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:06,316
Speaker 2: they've got are guys that are you know, that eat

555
00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:09,996
Speaker 2: sleep and breeze sports three hundred six five days a year.

556
00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:13,116
Speaker 2: Professional betters, professional gamblers. They don't get any of that.

557
00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:14,996
Speaker 2: Walk in traffic out of the strip where you got

558
00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:17,956
Speaker 2: suckers come into town or just giving you your money.

559
00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:21,796
Speaker 2: They got nothing but the toughest business in town, and

560
00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:25,156
Speaker 2: they beat it. They beat it because they know how

561
00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:25,676
Speaker 2: to book.

562
00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:29,396
Speaker 1: It's a kind of a relationship to information. They want

563
00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:31,396
Speaker 1: the information one hundred percent.

564
00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:33,476
Speaker 3: You want the information instead.

565
00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:35,796
Speaker 1: Of dodging it. All right, I got one last question

566
00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:37,556
Speaker 1: for you that I'm going to let you go. Sure,

567
00:32:38,556 --> 00:32:41,396
Speaker 1: kid walks into your knocks on your door and says

568
00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:45,036
Speaker 1: mister Walt, as I followed your career, I'm thinking about

569
00:32:45,036 --> 00:32:48,196
Speaker 1: a career in sports gambling. What do you tell them?

570
00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:53,556
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it as as a professional better. Clearly,

571
00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:56,156
Speaker 2: if you want to get into the book making side

572
00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:57,916
Speaker 2: of it, you want to get on the marketing side

573
00:32:57,916 --> 00:32:59,996
Speaker 2: of it. Whatever you want to get in, you know,

574
00:33:00,116 --> 00:33:03,356
Speaker 2: if that's your passion, man, go for it. Because I

575
00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:05,316
Speaker 2: think it's a business is going to grow and I

576
00:33:05,396 --> 00:33:07,116
Speaker 2: think there's going to be a lot of opportunity in it.

577
00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:10,436
Speaker 2: But as far as the sports better is concerned, I

578
00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:14,996
Speaker 2: would not do it. Why Well, I was successful for

579
00:33:15,276 --> 00:33:18,916
Speaker 2: I mean, if you read my book, you realize, I

580
00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:21,556
Speaker 2: guess if there's one theme in my book, it's resiliency.

581
00:33:22,196 --> 00:33:25,716
Speaker 2: And when you look at the situation you got out there.

582
00:33:25,796 --> 00:33:28,596
Speaker 2: Now in the United States, you're going to bet on sports.

583
00:33:29,076 --> 00:33:32,516
Speaker 2: A taxation is a joke here. Also, the operators came

584
00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:35,996
Speaker 2: in and they got all this legalization done. But you know,

585
00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:38,516
Speaker 2: you got an underlying thing out there with taxes that

586
00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:40,916
Speaker 2: the people betting on sports aren't even aware of it.

587
00:33:41,356 --> 00:33:44,916
Speaker 2: But in this country, any money you win, you're subject

588
00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 2: to federal and state tax, and a federal tax you're

589
00:33:48,236 --> 00:33:50,996
Speaker 2: paying tax on ordinary income. It's the only thing in

590
00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:53,836
Speaker 2: the entire United States tax code you can't carry forward

591
00:33:53,876 --> 00:33:55,316
Speaker 2: or loss in one year to the next.

592
00:33:55,556 --> 00:33:57,116
Speaker 1: Well, that just kills it as a business.

593
00:33:57,276 --> 00:33:58,796
Speaker 3: Well, it totally kills it.

594
00:33:59,796 --> 00:34:03,596
Speaker 2: I could easily see where you could really grow this business.

595
00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,156
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm talking about wealthy, smart people with bet

596
00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:08,756
Speaker 2: sports because number one is so much fun. It's number two,

597
00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:10,716
Speaker 2: it's addictive and now it's so.

598
00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:11,316
Speaker 3: Easy to do.

599
00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:14,676
Speaker 2: If they could pay twenty percent tax on whatever money

600
00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:16,476
Speaker 2: they want, they could care for the loss in one

601
00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 2: year or the next.

602
00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 3: Like you do with stocks.

603
00:34:19,076 --> 00:34:22,036
Speaker 2: You'd have all kinds of people who aren't putting sports.

604
00:34:22,076 --> 00:34:23,996
Speaker 2: They would bet sports, and they would bet, they would

605
00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:26,476
Speaker 2: play sports high and you would see a tremendous amount of.

606
00:34:26,476 --> 00:34:30,356
Speaker 1: Growth if you remove tax considerations and the young person

607
00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:33,996
Speaker 1: is there saying, should I pursue a career in sports gambling.

608
00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:35,516
Speaker 3: Well, then that's different.

609
00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:38,676
Speaker 2: If it were to be taxed fairly, then yeah, I

610
00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,596
Speaker 2: think you can beat sports, and I think sports can.

611
00:34:41,956 --> 00:34:44,796
Speaker 2: It's going to be way more work than you ever dream,

612
00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:49,076
Speaker 2: and ever dream. The market's going to be much smaller

613
00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:50,476
Speaker 2: than you can ever imagine.

614
00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:54,916
Speaker 3: It's it's not. It's mini school compared to the stock exchange.

615
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:58,196
Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering, is if you think it's been

616
00:34:59,116 --> 00:35:00,996
Speaker 1: a good way to go through life, Well.

617
00:35:00,916 --> 00:35:01,196
Speaker 3: It's been.

618
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:03,356
Speaker 2: It's been a great way to go through life for me. Clearly,

619
00:35:03,396 --> 00:35:05,396
Speaker 2: I've had issues with it. As you know, I've been

620
00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:10,716
Speaker 2: indicted five times. When I look back over my life.

621
00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:12,436
Speaker 2: Would I do this again if I know what I

622
00:35:12,476 --> 00:35:16,516
Speaker 2: know now, Yeah, I probably would, because look, I loved

623
00:35:16,756 --> 00:35:19,556
Speaker 2: every day that I did this, Michael. You know, I

624
00:35:19,596 --> 00:35:21,836
Speaker 2: got up being able to do something every day that

625
00:35:21,876 --> 00:35:24,116
Speaker 2: I absolutely enjoyed doing.

626
00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:25,396
Speaker 3: I loved doing.

627
00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:31,556
Speaker 2: It, and it so Yeah, from my perspective, yes it was.

628
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:32,596
Speaker 1: That's my answer.

629
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:34,676
Speaker 2: But if I were a young guy and I were

630
00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:38,036
Speaker 2: going to become a handicapper. I would specialize in fantasy

631
00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:40,436
Speaker 2: sports is what I would specialize and the reason I

632
00:35:40,476 --> 00:35:43,556
Speaker 2: would do that. I think ninety percent of people who

633
00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,556
Speaker 2: bet on fantasy sports have no chance. They're just giving

634
00:35:46,556 --> 00:35:49,116
Speaker 2: their money away. I think I think you got ten

635
00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:51,876
Speaker 2: percent of people betting on fantasy sports are going to win,

636
00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:57,316
Speaker 2: win all the money. And whereas betting on sides, it's

637
00:35:57,396 --> 00:36:01,036
Speaker 2: a lot tougher, a lot more competitive. The handicappers have

638
00:36:01,156 --> 00:36:04,516
Speaker 2: a much bigger advantage, and in fantasy sports they don't care.

639
00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:06,276
Speaker 3: So if I were going.

640
00:36:06,276 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 2: To be a young handicapper and I were going to

641
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:12,476
Speaker 2: start all over, would become a professional handicapper with fantasy sports.

642
00:36:13,076 --> 00:36:15,796
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time, Thank you, and joined the

643
00:36:15,876 --> 00:36:20,116
Speaker 1: visit a foreign to meeting you one day. Billy Walters

644
00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:23,316
Speaker 1: has written a book about his life. It's called Gambler

645
00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:27,756
Speaker 1: Secrets from a Life at Risk and it's great. Next

646
00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:30,196
Speaker 1: week we hear from some of the old school Vegas

647
00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:34,596
Speaker 1: bookies on the other side of Billy Walters. Bets Against

648
00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:37,116
Speaker 1: the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael Lewis

649
00:36:37,596 --> 00:36:42,116
Speaker 1: and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariella Markowitz.

650
00:36:42,556 --> 00:36:46,156
Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Sarah Bruguier.

651
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:50,076
Speaker 1: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To

652
00:36:50,156 --> 00:36:55,236
Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

653
00:36:55,676 --> 00:36:58,716
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you'd like

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Speaker 1: at pushkin, dot fm, slash Plus on our Apple showcage