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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager. And

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Speaker 1: you did read the title right. This is our necrophilia episode.

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Speaker 1: So we want to throw out just a couple of

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Speaker 1: quick disclaimers before we move forward. Um, not everything in

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Speaker 1: this episode is going to deal with human necrophilia, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of it does. So there is some some

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Speaker 1: of the information we're covering here is going to be

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Speaker 1: a little sexual in nature. Um, certainly graphic, certainly graphic,

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Speaker 1: and a little at least a little disturbing. Now we're

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Speaker 1: you know, we're not gonna go all in on the details.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna keep it reasonable here, but still

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna throw that disclaimer out there. So proceed,

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Speaker 1: Uh maybe not at your own risk, but hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: if this is not your thing, that maybe you should

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Speaker 1: just skip to the next sepisode. Yeah, And I just

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Speaker 1: want to also acknowledge that, you know, we we didn't

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Speaker 1: choose this solely to be gross, but that, like there's,

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Speaker 1: as you will find throughout this episode, there's been a

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Speaker 1: ton of research into it. But also that human beings

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Speaker 1: are naturally fascinated by the concept of necrophilia. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: it seems to be maybe we'll get to the heart

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Speaker 1: of this by the end of the episode, but because

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Speaker 1: it's pretty much the ultimate transgression, because you know that

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Speaker 1: almost anybody that you pose this too is going to

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Speaker 1: be horrified by it. Yeah. Uh, you know, unless they're

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Speaker 1: like secret cults of necrophiles that you know, are able

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Speaker 1: to talk about it with one another. It's pretty much

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Speaker 1: a solitary habit in human beings. Yeah. And it's and

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Speaker 1: it occupies such a weird space in our psyche because

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Speaker 1: it also draws in these elements of this body has

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Speaker 1: died and this body is no longer the person that

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Speaker 1: it was, you know. I mean certainly we've spent the

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Speaker 1: entire to give human history grappling with that. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's a troubling topic on several different levels.

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Speaker 1: But I think I think it's a great topic for

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Speaker 1: this show because it kind of gets to the heart

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Speaker 1: of of of something that has to you know, the

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Speaker 1: science of being human first of all, or of just

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Speaker 1: being alive in the world. As we're going to discover,

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Speaker 1: there are lots of animal necrophiles, and that at the

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Speaker 1: at the heart of it, this is something that happens

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Speaker 1: on a regular basis, more often than we'd like to think.

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Speaker 1: But that it, you know, I think for cultural reasons

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Speaker 1: that we kind of keep taboo and try not to

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Speaker 1: think about or talk about, Yeah, except except when it happens,

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Speaker 1: and then the media will exactly feast on it. It

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Speaker 1: is a it's very click bait, yeah, and that that

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Speaker 1: is not again, not why we chose to do this. Alright,

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna start off by just by discussing necrophilia

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Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom. I mean it generally, that's the

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Speaker 1: way it goes with these things. We can talk about

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Speaker 1: a simpler model of what's going on with the animals

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Speaker 1: before we dare throw in the complications of the human

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Speaker 1: mind and human culture. And what I was the most

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Speaker 1: shocked about with this as we did the research was

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Speaker 1: how prevalent it is. I mean, We've got at least

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Speaker 1: what like five or six examples of different animals that

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Speaker 1: practice necrophilia today, and I'm sure there are dozens more

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Speaker 1: out there that have just not been cataloged. In fact,

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Speaker 1: as we'll find with the penguin, it was and then

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Speaker 1: that research was redacted basically for cultural reasons. It was

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Speaker 1: just too shocking to share. I mean, but essentially you

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Speaker 1: could sum it all up in a bumper sticker like

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Speaker 1: necrophilia happens, and yes, and the more you you just

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Speaker 1: sort of acclimatized to that reality, the easier going everything else.

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Speaker 1: Is that it's not something that is not necessarily an

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Speaker 1: act that is just a defilement before the gods, as

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Speaker 1: much as a thing that occurs in the natural order

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Speaker 1: of things, and often as an accident. But accidents happen,

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Speaker 1: and and uh, and then human culture just makes it

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Speaker 1: a little more complicated. You know. What just occurred to me, Robert,

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Speaker 1: is that we're assuming that our audience automatically knows what

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Speaker 1: necrophilia is. That's true. Yeah, so maybe we should just

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Speaker 1: i mean throw out a very basic definition which is

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Speaker 1: in fact, and this was one of the things that

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Speaker 1: surprised me doing the research. In the case of necrophilia,

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Speaker 1: it is not the act of having sex with a

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Speaker 1: dead body with a corpse. It is the desire to, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just the desire to alone. The fantasy of necrophilia is

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Speaker 1: enough to classify one as a necrophilia um. And the

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Speaker 1: term itself is actually pretty new. Necrophilia is an entirely

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century term, but of course the practice it describes,

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Speaker 1: the sexual abuse of courses. It's quite ancient myths, going

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Speaker 1: back as far as human memory, probably because it, you know,

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Speaker 1: it gets down to a lot of the key problems

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Speaker 1: of dealing with death. Um. But of course you have

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Speaker 1: to sort of define what is sex too before we write,

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Speaker 1: because of course, human intercourse is essentially the physical act

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Speaker 1: that allows the exchange of genetic information to mix everything

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Speaker 1: around and create a new organism as offspring, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's what makes our first example in sort of

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote animal world interesting because it's so alien

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Speaker 1: to how we understand intercourse. It almost seems like it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be categorized as necrophilia technically, but it's referred to

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Speaker 1: as such in the literature, right And I'm sure in

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Speaker 1: the science headlines I didn't. I mean, maybe not yet.

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Speaker 1: But it's just waiting for the right paper to come

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Speaker 1: out and then all the various science blogs will really

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Speaker 1: run with the headline that will include the phrase bacterial necrophilia. Um.

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Speaker 1: Of course, bacteria, they don't actually need to engage in

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Speaker 1: intercourse in order to reproduce. Instead, they tend to swallow

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Speaker 1: up DNA from other bacteria just as they move around,

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Speaker 1: and they'll even absorb it from dead acterial cells. They

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Speaker 1: exchange new DNA fragments from the dead with their own,

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Speaker 1: and then by shuffling all this around, they're essentially mating

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Speaker 1: with the dead, uh, in a way that most higher

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Speaker 1: creatures fail to achieve. Yeah, the stuff that I read

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Speaker 1: about this in particular, I'm going to be honest, was

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Speaker 1: so dense that I had a hard time understanding it.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's its own very special niche field, uh,

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Speaker 1: that that has its own language, and that I don't

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Speaker 1: know necessarily that they're using necro file or necrophilia sort

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Speaker 1: of in the same way that we understand it when

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Speaker 1: we're applying it, certainly to human beings but also to

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Speaker 1: other animals. But it is how it is described in

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Speaker 1: the literature. Yeah, it is a genetic exchange between the

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Speaker 1: living and the dead. Um. So, yeah, it's almost its

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Speaker 1: own thing because it doesn't really match up with most

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Speaker 1: of the models of of biological higher organism. Necrophilia, but

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Speaker 1: it's important to include here especially. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: it's perfect to include a the top but if you

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Speaker 1: want to move on, we can get into what what

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Speaker 1: Robert has coined here as the duck of death. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with this

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Speaker 1: one from the Ignoble Prizes, particularly the the Ignoble Prize

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Speaker 1: for Biology in two thousand three. Now just to rehash, uh,

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Speaker 1: the Ignoble Prizes, this comes out, These come out every year.

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Speaker 1: This was new to me, and you explained it to

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Speaker 1: me before the podcast. Yeah, it's uh, it's easy to

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Speaker 1: to mistake it for like a mockery, but it's really

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Speaker 1: a celebration of of weird science papers and some you know,

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Speaker 1: science papers that study the strange or just the just

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Speaker 1: the the the weird minutia that often gets you know,

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Speaker 1: and and is inherently picked up in scientific literature. As

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Speaker 1: as science expands like a slime mold through the labyrinth

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Speaker 1: of of existence, you know you're gonna pick up some

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Speaker 1: weird topics. And they celebrate these topics. And so the

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Speaker 1: two thousand three award went to um Keys Moniker Um

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Speaker 1: who's a Dutch writer and rader of the Natural History

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Speaker 1: Museum in Rotterdam. Uh and he well, he won this

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Speaker 1: the paper for his u his recorded uh, his first

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Speaker 1: scientifically recorded case of homosexual necrophilia in the Mallard duck. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And before we get into the details here, there's I

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Speaker 1: want to back up a second because one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I read was that apparently mallards in the

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Speaker 1: Netherlands are particularly known for what are called attempted rape flights,

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Speaker 1: and that this isn't necessarily from from what I was reading,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily heterosexual or homosexual. It's just more like

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Speaker 1: these ducks just go for it while they're flying, and

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Speaker 1: it's somewhat regardless of gender. But one in ten of

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Speaker 1: these attempted rape flights is homosexual, and that it's two

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Speaker 1: mail ducks, uh. And that basically what we're looking at

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Speaker 1: here in this example from Mullicker is that one of

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Speaker 1: the ducks died midflight, either from injuries to due to

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Speaker 1: their struggle, or maybe it ran into something, and the

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Speaker 1: other duck just landed and kept going. It's ending. It's

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Speaker 1: hard nut. I laughed, a little bit, so it's hard

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Speaker 1: not you know what. I think it's okay for you

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Speaker 1: to laugh. I think it's okay for the people listening

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Speaker 1: to lad you got to have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: literal gallows you with with this in order to get

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Speaker 1: through it. Yeah, I mean the artist ducks in this

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Speaker 1: case doing what ducks do to each other. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: as we're gonna find too. You know, this kind of

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Speaker 1: uh sexual behavior is fairly common in a lot of animals,

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Speaker 1: birds especially, but yeah, these ducks. Um, it seems like

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Speaker 1: I didn't get the impression because I read the actual

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Speaker 1: account for Mulliker. I don't know that he knew how

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Speaker 1: the first duck died. It sounded like maybe it crashed

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Speaker 1: into something, But basically there was this this duck corpse,

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Speaker 1: and he saw the second duck mounted and begin to

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Speaker 1: peck at it and proceed for quite some time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he recorded pretty precisely how long everything lasted, and I

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Speaker 1: believe it was like I don't have it in the

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Speaker 1: notes here, but I want to say it was like

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Speaker 1: forty five or seventy five minutes or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't like this duck didn't realize what was happening,

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Speaker 1: then realized it's you know, it's a partner was dead,

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Speaker 1: and stopped it really, you know, made a habit of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think That's one of the reasons that the

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Speaker 1: the paper won the ig Nobel Prize and was so

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Speaker 1: that everyone enjoyed it so much. Is that it is

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Speaker 1: this meticulous look at this horrible thing then that you know,

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Speaker 1: most people might want to turn their eyes away from. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing about it, right, is that Mullicker sat

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Speaker 1: there and watched this for let's say seventy five minutes,

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Speaker 1: and I'm assuming, with like a pad of paper and

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Speaker 1: just wrote it all down. And he actually, from what

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Speaker 1: I was reading, it was after that, after the second

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Speaker 1: I believe that this there were two instances of it

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Speaker 1: with the same deceased duck. Uh. He kind of shoot

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Speaker 1: away the other bird and finally took the corpse of

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Speaker 1: the mallard and you know, brought it inside, and that

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Speaker 1: other duck hung around kind of making noises for a

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Speaker 1: while afterwards. So it's an interesting case. I would not

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Speaker 1: be the person who would be so intent upon, you know,

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Speaker 1: cataloging this that I would be able to hang out

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Speaker 1: there for seventy five minutes. But yeah, it's an example

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Speaker 1: of the unflinching gaze of science. Now our next case, though,

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Speaker 1: is it is more of an example of the the

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Speaker 1: definitely the Flinch. Yeah. George Murray Levic, Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: the medical officer on Captain Scott's Terra Nova expedition to

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Speaker 1: the Soft Pole in nineteen ten, and he recorded the

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Speaker 1: sexual activity of the Adeli penguins uh in in detail,

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Speaker 1: and he was he was somewhat shocked by much of

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Speaker 1: what he saw, and a lot of this really has

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Speaker 1: to do with with him falling into the trap of

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Speaker 1: seeing penguins as little people. You know, they were little

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Speaker 1: people in tuxedos instead of just bipedal birds. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what this movie? Do you know what this article

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Speaker 1: made me think of? Have you ever seen that movie

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Speaker 1: March of the Penguins narrated by Morgan Freeman. I have

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Speaker 1: not seen any of the various penguin related movies that

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Speaker 1: have come out. I I saw it, gosh, must have

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Speaker 1: been eleven years ago now or something like that, whenever

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Speaker 1: it first came out. I saw it in the theater.

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Speaker 1: Is the one where they serve right? No? No, no,

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Speaker 1: this is like a documentary. This isn't the c g

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Speaker 1: I happy I think you're thinking of happy Feet that

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Speaker 1: came from what's his name? Director of Mad Max. So

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Speaker 1: oh oh yeah, that's right, George Miller, that's true. Yeah. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: for those of you out there who have seen March

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Speaker 1: of the Penguins, and I think there is a whole

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Speaker 1: kind of genre of documentary film about penguins. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that bothered me about that movie at the

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Speaker 1: time is how much it personified the penguins. And clearly

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Speaker 1: from reading this like Levick, they must have left some

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Speaker 1: of the more animalistic behaviors of penguins out of the

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Speaker 1: cut so that it fit the sort of humanized narrative

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Speaker 1: that they established. As Morgan Freeman read to us, you know,

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Speaker 1: over the over this very nice footage of penguin's Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's an article that came out on the BBC in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve titled depray of sex Acts by Penguins

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Speaker 1: Shock Polar Explorer, and uh it's it's a wonderful little

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Speaker 1: read on include a link to it on the landing

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Speaker 1: page for this episode. But uh, there's a quote there. Um,

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Speaker 1: they interviewed Douglas Russell, who's curator of eggs and nests

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Speaker 1: at the Natural History Museum, and uh, he says, what

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Speaker 1: is happening here is not in any way analogus to

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Speaker 1: necrophilia in the human context, it is the male seeing

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Speaker 1: the positioning that is causing them to have a sexual reaction.

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Speaker 1: They are not distinguishing between live females who are awaiting

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Speaker 1: congress in the colony and dead penguin's from the previous year,

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Speaker 1: which just happened to be in the same position. And

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Speaker 1: so um. As the article lays out, George George Murray

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Speaker 1: Levic In writing about these penguins, was so shocked that

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Speaker 1: the the stuff about necrophilia, he essentially redacted only some

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Speaker 1: of his peers and the individuals that they shared it with.

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Speaker 1: We're able to read the full unedited account of penguin atrocities. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, like that, it goes beyond just the

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Speaker 1: necrophilia too. I believe these penguins, similar to the mallards,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of engage in in like a habitualized

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Speaker 1: gang rape, is what it sounded like, because there's lots

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Speaker 1: of these male penguins surrounding female penguins, and what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening in these situations situations is they're so brutal

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Speaker 1: that they accidentally killed the partner. Yeah, I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: it should come as no surprise, right that in a

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Speaker 1: brutal environment, creatures will behave brutally in order to survive um,

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Speaker 1: which leads us to HP Lovecraft. Yeah, this was I

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Speaker 1: don't know about you, but when I when I was

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Speaker 1: reading this, I started thinking about At the Mountains of

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Speaker 1: Madness is novella, which I just reread sometime in the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years, so it's kind of fresh. It's great.

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Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite Lovecraft pieces. It's a little

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Speaker 1: bit longer than his other ones, but yeah, yeah, one

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Speaker 1: of his later works. Definitely definitely science fiction. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a work that he connected a lot of scientific research for.

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Speaker 1: He was Lovecraft of the guy who if he were

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Speaker 1: around today, you know, he would be hitting all the

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Speaker 1: science blogs. Who would be reading some of the journals,

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Speaker 1: he'd have a subscription to to several of the magazines.

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Speaker 1: He's probably have a podcast at How Stuff Works, I

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Speaker 1: would hope so. And uh he uh. But he makes

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Speaker 1: several mention mentions of the penguin, like numerous mentions of penguins,

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Speaker 1: often describing them as grotesque penguins. And uh, he probably

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Speaker 1: would have have read about about about Levis thoughts on

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Speaker 1: the penguins. I mean, probably not the unedited content, but

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Speaker 1: he certainly makes reference to Captain Scott's Terra Nova expedition

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Speaker 1: in the story. Yeah, and if I remember correctly, in

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Speaker 1: that story, those penguins were somewhat gigantic, right, there was

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Speaker 1: something to do with that. They were sort of like

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Speaker 1: prehistoric holdover penguins. And we know, I believe from what

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Speaker 1: I've I've read an other research instances that that's a

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Speaker 1: thing that that penguins did used to be considerably larger

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Speaker 1: than they are now. Yeah, I almost feel like they

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Speaker 1: come off more repellent in that story than like the

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Speaker 1: show gofs. Oh yeah, they're they're they're terrifying. Um, so

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Speaker 1: let's move on to reptiles. Yeah. So we've got a

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Speaker 1: bunch of examples of of reptiles in action performing necrophilia.

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Speaker 1: And one of the first ones that I found was

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Speaker 1: from an article called It was published this year called

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Speaker 1: corpse Bride Irresistible, A dead female tagu lizard courted by

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Speaker 1: males for two days at an urban park in southeastern Brazil.

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Speaker 1: It's very specific that title. I love the pool quote

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Speaker 1: on this one from a zoologist who observed this act

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Speaker 1: and process. It's very similar to the the Mallard duck.

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Speaker 1: This guy just sat there and watched quote. I felt

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Speaker 1: a sense of wonder, Well, I'll go through this and

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Speaker 1: then we can hit upon some of the other lizards.

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Speaker 1: He provided a very detailed account of what happened here

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Speaker 1: with this tagu lizard. Apparently it mounted a recently dead female.

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Speaker 1: It gained a hold by biting the skin of her

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Speaker 1: neck and attempting to mate with her. The same male

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Speaker 1: just kept biting the neck and rubbing its left hind

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Speaker 1: limbs on her body. And then this basically was like

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Speaker 1: I think a two day dead female. So it wasn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, as it wasn't similar to the Mallard case

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Speaker 1: where it'd like just happened. Um. Then another smaller male

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Speaker 1: came by and also held the neck of it, and

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Speaker 1: they seems to be, you know, biting seems to be

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Speaker 1: a major part of tagu lizard sex practice, because they

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Speaker 1: just were opening their jaws kind of biting and putting

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Speaker 1: their mouths around the whole head of this animal. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then after a while it's it ceased its attempts

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Speaker 1: and he this is exactly from his his figure description.

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Speaker 1: The male tongue flicked the female's head and scratched her

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Speaker 1: hind bodies with the right hind limb. So there you

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Speaker 1: have it, necrophilia between tabu lizards. I love though about

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Speaker 1: this case. One of the things I love about this

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Speaker 1: case is that the analysis of what's happening here goes

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Speaker 1: deeper than just oh, it's a stupid animal and it

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Speaker 1: made a stupid mistake and tried to mate with something

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Speaker 1: that it cannot mate with. They point out that, first

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Speaker 1: of all, lizards of course cold blooded creatures, so it's

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Speaker 1: not h So the creature that it's attempting to have

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Speaker 1: sex with, though dead, uh, you know, it's it's ambient

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Speaker 1: body heat. The body heat is essentially going to be

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Speaker 1: that of the ambient air, and uh, pheromones are still

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Speaker 1: going to be in play even though it's dead. So

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Speaker 1: there there are enough signals saying yes, I'm alive for

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Speaker 1: the you know, the dominating male to then come in

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Speaker 1: and try and do its thing. Yeah. I think that's

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Speaker 1: an important thing to distinguish here as well, too, is like,

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Speaker 1: consider that these animals are relying on senses they're very

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Speaker 1: different than ours to distinguish what's what's available and what's alive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's probably less like, um, you know, if

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Speaker 1: if a human were to go to a bar and

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Speaker 1: try to chat up someone who's just a corpse just

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Speaker 1: propped up. Yeah, it's more like if you're driving down

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Speaker 1: the interstate and you see a sign for a gas

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Speaker 1: station and you pull in to get gas. It said

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Speaker 1: gas station. You know, pull the car up, actually get

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Speaker 1: out to fill up, and then realize that the place

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Speaker 1: is closed. Exactly the existing signs. The major signs that

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Speaker 1: we care about in this rather simplistic ordeal are saying yes,

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Speaker 1: we're open for business, when in the fact that the

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Speaker 1: lizard is dead. It's possible this take Your lizard didn't

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Speaker 1: even realize it at all, you know, even even afterwards.

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Speaker 1: It sounded like the same with a mallard. We've also

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Speaker 1: got this with another reptile, the Amazonian frog. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have trouble pronouncing this Latin name, right, Ryan ella probucda. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And this one is fabulous because, as a two thirteen

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Speaker 1: study reveals, this is functional necrophilia. This is something that

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Speaker 1: pretty much every other organism out there, it's an impossibility

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Speaker 1: because necrophilia. We've often discussed this. We've discussed it so

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Speaker 1: far in lizards and birds, it's a mistake that cannot

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Speaker 1: possibly work. But in this frog, in proboscidia here are proboscidia,

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Speaker 1: we actually see reproduction occurring through necrophilia, right, So they

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Speaker 1: extract eggs from their dead sexual partners, right, and and

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Speaker 1: then they fertilize them. They don't fertilize them and then

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Speaker 1: extract them, right. This is so how this happens. And

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Speaker 1: it's not not to say they primarily or only reproduced

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Speaker 1: through neck right, but on the table as as as

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Speaker 1: a viable option. So the males form a big mating

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Speaker 1: ball that make you know, consist of you know, dozens

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Speaker 1: of frogs and they're all just ready to go. And

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Speaker 1: then along comes a female and essentially all began fighting

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Speaker 1: on top of her for the rights to mate with her.

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Speaker 1: And in some of the cases, she ends up drowning

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of this uh, this mating ball, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so it ends up with you end

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Speaker 1: up with cases where um. Researchers, particularly in this case,

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Speaker 1: uh Thiago is a from Brazil's National Institute of Amazonian Research.

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Speaker 1: He's analyzing the results of this breeding. He find counting, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's counting him like a hundred males to twenty dead

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Speaker 1: females in one in another one fifty males and five

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Speaker 1: dead females. But then when he starts dissecting the females,

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Speaker 1: there are no eggs. So he's trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: where did the eggs go, how did this, what could

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Speaker 1: have possibly happened, And then he observed the act itself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so like from what I had read that there's

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Speaker 1: this is unique I believe to this particular kind of frog.

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Speaker 1: But that one of the one of the articles that

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Speaker 1: I read on this, which was called necrophiliac behavior in

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Speaker 1: the career toad, which is a different kind of toad,

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Speaker 1: but it also references this instance. It says that it's

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Speaker 1: been documented that in all groups of terrestrial tetrapods that

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00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: this kind of uh necrophilia happens, and that basically scientists

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Speaker 1: just account for it as a lack of proper recognition

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Speaker 1: by males during reproductive season. So in in this case

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Speaker 1: with the Probisidia, that sounds like they do recognize it though,

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Speaker 1: and they say, Okay, we've got to take these eggs

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Speaker 1: so that you know, something actually happens with it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or at least they've they've reached the point in their

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Speaker 1: evolution to where it still works. So it's I mean,

398
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Speaker 1: it's it's been selected. Um, because yeah, what happens is

399
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Speaker 1: the male squeeze the dead female's body, the eggs pop out,

400
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Speaker 1: the male quickly fertilizes the eggs, and then they eventually

401
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Speaker 1: developed into healthy embryos. So like, where do they where

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Speaker 1: do they put these eggs while they're fertilizing. They just

403
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Speaker 1: have like a storage area. I got the impression from

404
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Speaker 1: from reading the paper that they just kind of pop

405
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Speaker 1: out and it's just done. The deed is done right there. Okay,

406
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Speaker 1: So it's just like the egg is next to the

407
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Speaker 1: corpse of the female frog. Okay, Okay, I guess I

408
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: was imagining something a little bit more fantastic where these

409
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Speaker 1: like hundreds of spirited them away. These drugs are bringing

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Speaker 1: these these these eggs back to their layer. I believe

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Speaker 1: Izzio did. Um, he did observe like and when at

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Speaker 1: least one of the cases, the frog moving the body

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Speaker 1: to a location where he would be able to have

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Speaker 1: his way with it undisturbed by the other other male frogs.

415
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Speaker 1: But but yeah, the fascinating thing here is that it's

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Speaker 1: believed that this provides a reproductive advantage to both the desperate,

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Speaker 1: outnumbered male who can't get his hands on a live mate,

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Speaker 1: as well as the dead female because you know, even

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Speaker 1: in her case, she's died through this rather brutal breathing process,

420
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Speaker 1: but she's still going to be able to fulfill the

421
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Speaker 1: genetic mission. Yeah, that is the fascinating part. And certainly, uh,

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Speaker 1: it seems like, at least in all the examples that

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Speaker 1: we have here of animals, that that reproduction is still

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Speaker 1: the goal, right that, Like, that's what seems to be

425
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: going on in the heads of these mallards or these

426
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: frogs or teng google lizards or penguins or whatever. And

427
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: it makes me wonder too. Like I said at the top,

428
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many other instances of other animals

429
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: in the wild that have done this, and humans have

430
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: probably already documented it. But like our friend with the penguins,

431
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: they maybe don't want to get that research. That's that's

432
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: not the first paper they're going to submit for publication,

433
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, I get the impression that it's it's

434
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: kind of an understudied area of human behavior, but but

435
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: certainly there's behavior, yes, yeah, yeah, certainly an understudied area

436
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: of animal behavior. But but there's some there's some interesting

437
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: work there nonetheless, so I believe that this frog is

438
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: a perfect way for us to transition into human necrophiles. Um. Now,

439
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: before we get into anything to disturbing though, UM, we

440
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: should remind you that like, basically, human necrophilia can be

441
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: achieved in a way that is far less ethically sketchy

442
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: and horrendous and you know, and on a front to

443
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 1: the gods, etcetera. And that is of course in the

444
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: form of posthumous sperm retrieval and posthumous egg retrieval, which

445
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: is similar to the frogs that we were just speaking exactly. Like,

446
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: it's like, basically it's the frog scenario carried out, um,

447
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: you know, far less brutally in human culture. Uh, the

448
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: same thing that the frog has been it has evolved

449
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: to deal with. Human technology allows us to do the

450
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: same thing to remove viable sperm or egg from a

451
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: brain dead or even recently the deceased individual and then

452
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: utilize it uh in reproduction in a in a healthy body. Yeah.

453
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: I had never heard of this before this before researching

454
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: this episode, but it seems perfectly plausible to me, and

455
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: I could sort of understand the motivation for some people

456
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, it's not you know, it's not. It's

457
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: almost a disservice to call it necro to refer to

458
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: it all as necrophilia, because it's it's certainly not, you know,

459
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: an abuse of a body. It's there are a lot

460
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: of there's some ethical concerns and you know, most of

461
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: them concerned legality and consent of the individual whose reproductive

462
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: material is being taken. But but at at heart though

463
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: it is a reproductive act occurring between a living individual

464
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: and a dead individual, almost like when going back to

465
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: that bacteria, right, Yeah, they're simply it's very mention line

466
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: with the bacterial model that we discussed earlier. Um. And

467
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: we've had this technology for a little bit. Um. Yeah,

468
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: we've we've been carrying out the posthumous sperm retrieval for

469
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: a while and in two thousand eleven we actually saw

470
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: the the the first use of of effective posthumous eggriteval.

471
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: There's a paper with a kind of horrible title, um

472
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: that came out to two thousand twelve Michigan State Law Review,

473
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Dying to be many using intentional parenthood as a proxy

474
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 1: for consent in posthumous egg rechieval case. Yeah, that definitely

475
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: sounds like uh something that I've noticed that's a that's

476
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: a law article to Michigan State Law Review. It sounds

477
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: like a case of using a title to UM kind

478
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: of kind of make it a little bit more sexy

479
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: so it's more attractive to the publishers. Yeah, it was.

480
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: It feels a little weird, but but I mean at

481
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: hard it's I think it's a very sensible, UM, very

482
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: sensible procedure to carry out provided you know, consent is

483
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: clear and established. You know, you have a sudden death

484
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: that occurs between two people who who want to uh

485
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: to have offspring, and here is a scientific way of

486
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: achieving that. And it sounds like this article was specifically

487
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: about UH an example in Israel where magistrates set a

488
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: legal precedent for this um for the harvesting and freezing

489
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: of a posthumous human being sex. Yeah. I know some

490
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: of you are probably wondering, well, how how dead UH

491
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 1: can the individual be? I did find some stats on

492
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: sperm retrieval from a from two thousand six paper uh

493
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: into titled a Posthumous Sperm Retrieval Analysis of Time Interval

494
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: to harvest sperm and uh, this is published in the

495
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: journal Human Reproduction. It said, quote, viable sperm is obtainable

496
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: with PSR. That's posthumous sperm retrieval well after the currently

497
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: recommended twenty four hour time interval. PSR should be considered

498
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: up to thirty six hours after death following appropriate evaluation.

499
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: No quote, no correlation was found between cause of death

500
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: and chance for successful sperm retrieval. So that's sperm in particular,

501
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: but not not not eggs. Yeah, okay, yeah, So I

502
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: wonder if there's a paper out there that's about the

503
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: time limits on eggs as well. Yeah, I wonder if it's, uh,

504
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: if it's if it's about the same, or or maybe

505
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: it's if there's a little shorter. I'm not sure, but

506
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: if anybody out there knows, please tell us. Yeah, yeah,

507
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 1: we'll throw that information in there. Um. So, this seems

508
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: like the moment for us to go down what probably

509
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: most of you thought you were going to be hearing

510
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: when you clicked on an episode that had necrophilia in

511
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: the title, and we're going to call it classic necrophilia.

512
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: This is what you think of when you hear that word. Yeah,

513
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 1: and this is you know, if you want to get

514
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: off the train at this point. This is your stop

515
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: because it's all human necrophilia from here. Yeah, this is

516
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: where it gets a bit spooky, but not as you

517
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to qualify that, not as not

518
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: as a spooky or creepy as I thought it was

519
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: going to be. I mean, especially once you crunch the

520
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: examples that we've gone through already, kind of demystifies and

521
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, de horrifies the situation of it. I find

522
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: and there's even some aspects of the human psychology that

523
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: I can I don't relate to or identify with, but

524
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: I can I can sympathize with with somebody, for instance,

525
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: who misses their dead loved one, which seems to be

526
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: one of the examples. We'll get into that, Yeah, But

527
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: I think what we should really start with is is

528
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: this one paper that came out in nine seven which

529
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: seems to be cited in all of the research that's

530
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: done on the psychology of necrophilia. It is called Sexual

531
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Attraction to Corpses. A Psychiatric review of necrophilia, was written

532
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: by Jonathan P. Rossman and Philip J. Resnick Uh and basically,

533
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 1: these guys explored a hundred and twenty two cases of

534
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: necrophilia and they found what was the eighty eight of

535
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: them were from world literature and thirty four unpublished cases.

536
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: What I want to know? And I actually downloaded the

537
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: whole article. I gotta go back through and look at

538
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: the methodology. I don't think they explained it in there though.

539
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: Where where do you get these cases? It's not they

540
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: make it sound like you just go to the library

541
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: and you're like, yes, I would like all of the

542
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: world literature cases on necliphilia. Please. Yeah. I don't recall

543
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: seeing that specified in the paper either. But but you know,

544
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: they had a lot to tu on. They did, and

545
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: they they used it to basically create some categorizations, some

546
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: classifications of types of necrophilia. Right, so we've got and

547
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: they came up with three, where first of all, they're two.

548
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: There there's sort of a line in the sand that

549
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: they draw initially between necrophilia and pseudo necrophilia. And pseudo

550
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: necrophilia is you know, this consists of of transient attraction

551
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: to human corpses. But it's not. But it with with

552
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: these individuals with pseudo necrophiliacs, sex with the corps is

553
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: not the central part of their fantasies. They're primarily interested

554
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: in living sexual partners, but you know they're they're not

555
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: averse to uh to to going after something dead. This

556
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: group includes uh sadistic, opportunistic, and transitory cases of necrophilia.

557
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: And again, like let's distinguish here. Necrophilia is the desire

558
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: to have sex with a dead body, not the act

559
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: of having sex with a dead body. Some of these

560
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: lead to that, obviously, but some of these necrophilix that

561
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: they're referring to in the literature didn't act upon their fantasies. Yeah,

562
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: Like I could see someone being tricked and being classified

563
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: as a pseudo necrophiliac, you know, like they have a

564
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: drinking them and you're just talking to them instead the

565
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 1: would you and under these circumstances and then eventually they

566
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: break and say, well, I don't know maybe, and then

567
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you're in study on necrophilia.

568
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: That's where they got them all. So okay, the first

569
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: one is the first categorization that they came up with

570
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: is I think what a lot of people think of

571
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: when they hear the word necrophilia, but they categorize it

572
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: as a type called necrophilic homicide. So what we're talking

573
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: about here this is sort of the Jeffrey Dahmer model

574
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 1: of an individual murder somebody in order to obtain a

575
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: corpse for their necrophilic fantasies. And from from what I

576
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: was reading about Dahmer, and I mean, that's a whole

577
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: another rabbit hole that we could go down for the

578
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: other episode. And I think Ted Bundy also partook in this,

579
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: but that the idea was that those those men could

580
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: not uh feel sexual pleasure unless the part of their

581
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: quote unquote partner's terrible word for it in this situation

582
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: was was dead or at least like the humanized in

583
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: a to a significant degree, because I believe Dalma tried

584
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: to create essentially zombies out of by drilling into their

585
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: their skull. But but it kind of comes down to

586
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: the same thing. They needed a person devoid of will,

587
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: and the easiest way to achieve that is of course,

588
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: to kill the individual. Yeah, the key here seems to

589
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: be that what these people are looking for is a

590
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: partner who is quote and this is from the text

591
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: unresisting and unrejecting. So I don't know necessarily that it's

592
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: like it maybe it is in some cases that the

593
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 1: act of killing sort of sexualizes the situation. But what

594
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: they're looking for is somebody who won't reject them and

595
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: somebody who isn't going to resist them. Right, we'll break

596
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: down more on the motives for all these cases. Yeah,

597
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: And one fact that I wanted to throw out there

598
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: that wasn't in these studies, but was Another study came

599
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: out was this woman Michelle Stein from the John J.

600
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: College of Criminal Justice in New York. She reviewed two

601
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: hundred and eleven sexual homicides and she found that only

602
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: eight percent of those involved necrophilia. So when we're talking about,

603
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, sexual deviancy, sexual crime, and necrophilia, it's actually

604
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: quite rare. I mean, first of all, these these deviant

605
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: situations are rare, that's why we call them deviant. But

606
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: then also that within that structure, the actual act of

607
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: sex with a dead body is fairly rare as well.

608
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: Within within these criminal acts, yeah, I mean you also

609
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: can imagine the then diagram right of the of the

610
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: the psychotic murder or wentless murder and the type of

611
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: individual who would want sexual contact with the dead by Yeah,

612
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: it seems as such an I think that, Yeah, the

613
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: ven diagram sliver is probably fairly small, So don't listen

614
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: to this episode and think, oh my god, they're everywhere

615
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: that that's not the case, at least from what the

616
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: research says. Now, the next classification under a genuine necrophilia

617
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: is a regular necrophilia, and this is I like to

618
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: think of this is a scavenger approach, entitling the use

619
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: of entailing the use of an already dead body for sex.

620
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: So um, you know, it's will explore later. A lot

621
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: of this happens to to line up with one's job.

622
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: You're in a job where you're in close contact with

623
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: dead bodies, and the opportunity simply presents itself. Yeah. Yeah,

624
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: And I suspect that that is probably the situation. Referring

625
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: back to the sexual homicides and the necrophilia like sort

626
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 1: of numbers, I suspect that this is a bit more common. Yeah,

627
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: actually quite far more common. I think it's extremely rare

628
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: to have somebody like a Jeffrey Dahmer type. And then

629
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: the third one that they categorize, and this is sixty

630
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: eight percent of the people that they categorized as necrophiliacs

631
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: is necrophilic fantasy. So This is basically getting back to

632
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: the pseudo necrophilia. This is the idea that it's a

633
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: it's a fantasy they have of having sex with a corpse,

634
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: but they don't actually do it um and they sort

635
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: of I think that, and by day I mean that

636
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: the researchers here think that these necrophiles often choose occupations

637
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: that will put them in contact with corpses. So I

638
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: don't know, working in a morgue or a hospital, or

639
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: maybe a grave digger, I don't know, Yeah, hospitals graves

640
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: in some cases, will you know, we'll look at some

641
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: of the stats in a bit. I think like clerics

642
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: and even soldiers come up. Basically, any kind of profession

643
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: you can imagine in which you would find yourself in

644
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: proximity to a dead body. And here's a couple of

645
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: numbers to break this down. Of the necrophiles wanted to

646
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: be reunited with a dead partner. So this is the

647
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: one that I was saying earlier that I can sort

648
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: of not that I would participate in this, like my

649
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: wife died or something like that, but I can I

650
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 1: feel emotion for these people who are so saddened by

651
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: the loss of their life partner that they fantasize. They're

652
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: not even actually acting upon it, They're just fantasizing about

653
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: being reunited with them. It reminds me of the old

654
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: Irish ballad that particularly Shanay O'Connor did a version of this,

655
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: and also Dead Can Dance did a fabulous version of this,

656
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: I'm stretched on your grave and will lie there forever

657
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: about someone who's lost their beloved and there just lying

658
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: on their grave. Yes, yes, very modlin. Sounds quite in

659
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: live with my experience with Irish folk songs that kind

660
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: of attitude, and I think all of us can relate

661
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: to it, at least that level of sorrow. I think, um, okay,

662
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: fifteen percent of them were just attracted to corpses. Twelve

663
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: percent had a power trip over this, right, so twelve

664
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: percent of the people that they looked at saw that

665
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: they very much like how we think about I think

666
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: sexual assault is that it's a power strategy more than

667
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: it is a sexual, uh motivated crime. You know, I

668
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: can't help but particularly in the whole idea about being

669
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: attracted to corpses, I can't help but think of individuals

670
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: growing up in the age of VHS. You know where

671
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, nowadays, if someone has access to the Internet,

672
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: they can find just about any example of sexual activity

673
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: they want. You know, the appropriate supervision isn't there. But

674
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, like the easiest way to

675
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: to see U, you know, more kind of adult content

676
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: was through horror movies and science fiction movies. You know,

677
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: so you know, you're not gonna go to the video

678
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: store and rent something, you know, from the adult section,

679
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: but you can certainly rent Alien. You can rent, rent,

680
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: rent Return of the Living Dead, which of course has

681
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: a naked zombie in it. So like I wondered to

682
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: what it's you know, that's an important time and one

683
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: sexual there's a there's a culturals like geist around that

684
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: a somewhat maybe encourages such fantasies. I wonder, Yeah, like

685
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: because imagine there are a lot of people out there

686
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: who have their you know, their their sexual development kind

687
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: of crosses into this horror genre and then and there

688
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: they just sort of burned their mind or various sexy zombies,

689
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: you know, Like yeah, and that's been a trope for

690
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: at least the last couple of years. Is the whole

691
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: zombie thing turned into a boom? I think there was

692
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: a lot of like, let's make cash off of this

693
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: by making those zombies zombies sexy as well. Yeah, um

694
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: so this makes me think of you know, it's no

695
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: surprise to the listeners. Both Robert and I are big

696
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: horror fans. I was on Bloody Disgusting I think it

697
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: was Bloody Disgusting, which is a you know, horror fan website,

698
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: the other day and they had a list of like

699
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: I think it was like the top ten scenes of

700
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: necrophilia in horror movies, uh, you know, overall, And I

701
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: was shocked that there were so many. And then as

702
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: I kind of went through it, I went, oh, some

703
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: of these are actually like taste full movies, that tasteful

704
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: horror movies that had, you know, a scene that had

705
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: to do with the the character of the plot. It

706
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: wasn't just thrown in there to be shocking or to

707
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: you know Garner, uh you know, cult status. I guess, yeah,

708
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: growing up, I remember, we're not growing up. It was

709
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: more like college. I remember hearing about necromantic I think

710
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: as a German film. Yeah, it's like kind of a

711
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: video nasty classification, you know, banded a lot of places.

712
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: I never saw it, but it was it's it's kind

713
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: of I think it's held up there as one of

714
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: the earlier that might have been on the list. I'm

715
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: trying to remember some of them. I'm sure a hundred

716
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: and twenty Days of Sodom was on there. Um, But

717
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: I've never seen that Salo, and I believe there's I

718
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: believe there's necrophilia in that. Um. God, I don't remember.

719
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: I actually saw it in the last year for the

720
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: first time. Yeah, because one of our coworkers owns it.

721
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: Because I mean, it's uh, I'm gonna have fun guessing

722
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: who that is later, But it's uh, I mean it's

723
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: it's an interesting film and that it is highly controversial,

724
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: but it's it's uh, it's artistically well made. It's it's

725
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: a work of troubling art. Yeah, like the I mean,

726
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: the director was stabbed to death shortly after it. I

727
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: didn't know that really, and it's a it's a I

728
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: ended up not watching it in full, Like, I just

729
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: could not watch a lot of it. I never saw it.

730
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: But I remember when I was in college, I had

731
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: a girlfriend who was in a film class and they

732
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: had assigned Salo as something that they had to watch

733
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: for class, and she was mortified. Um and just I

734
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: don't I don't think she was able to make it

735
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: through it was you know, probably part of the class

736
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: was a part of the exercise was to see whether

737
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: or not people could make it through that movie. But um, yeah,

738
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: So getting back to the actual you know, necrophilic fantasies,

739
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: power trips come into it as you as you would

740
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: suspect um. And then you know, as we referred to earlier,

741
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: that upon the cidal necrophiliacs. That's again only twelve percent

742
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: of the case as they surveyed, so it's quite a

743
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: small sliver. Twelve out of what what what are these guys?

744
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: They had a hundred and twenty two cases and then

745
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: with the other case, it was out of two hundred

746
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: and eleven sexual homicides, it was only eight percent that

747
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: involved necrophilia. Okay, So one last part to this study

748
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: that they did, they also developed a model to help

749
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: understand what kind of events led to these you know,

750
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: psychological categorizations. And this is what they found. They found

751
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: four um, as you would imagine, poor self esteem, largely

752
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: due to a significant loss in their life. Um. So

753
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: that would probably bring us back to the you know,

754
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: who wanted to be reunited with their dead partners. Uh.

755
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: As you would expect, they're usually male. Uh. And there

756
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: are men who have a fear of being rejected by women,

757
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: and so, as we discussed earlier, they desire a sex

758
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: sex object that is incapable of rejecting them. The third

759
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: is that they some of them actually have like a

760
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: fear of the dead. They're scared of being around dead bodies,

761
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: and this like as a way of conquering that, I

762
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: suppose transform It transforms that fear into a desire um,

763
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: which I think is fairly common transition, not necessarily with

764
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: dead bodies. I think most people don't experience it on

765
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: that level. But being afraid of something is also titillating,

766
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: you know. That's why we watch horror movies exactly. Uh.

767
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: And then the last one is just you know, the

768
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: the fantasy of some It sometimes begins after you've just

769
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: had your first exposure to a corpse, whether that's you know,

770
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: as a child or an adult. Um. Yeah, it's a

771
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: shocking and and and and it makes an impact absolutely. Uh.

772
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: So there is there's there's a there's another pretty widely

773
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: cited study by a guy named I believe this is

774
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: pronounced a nil agra wall uh. And he he published

775
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: this in two thousand nine, and I I believe from

776
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: what I saw was that this was used to subsequently

777
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: create a new DSM entry on necrophilia, and his his

778
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: study was called a New Classification for Necrophilia, was published

779
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: in the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine in two

780
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: thousand nine, and he came up with ten categories. Okay,

781
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: we'll go through these. First up, role players, people who

782
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: get aroused from pretending their live partner is dead during

783
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: sexual activity, okay. And then we have romantic necrophiliacs. These

784
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: are these are what we were discussing before, bereaved people

785
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: who remain attached to their dead lover's body so they're

786
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, this is about sorrow. Then the number three

787
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: necrophiliac fantasize. There's people who fantasize about necrophilia but never

788
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: actually have sex with a corpse. And there's tactile necrophiliacs,

789
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: people who are aroused by touching or just stroking a

790
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: corpse without engaging an intercourse. I seem to remember that

791
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: there was an extremely creepy episode of that TV show

792
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: Millennium where there was a guy who that was his

793
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: particular thing was just like showing up to funerals and

794
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: pretending to be a friend of the family just so

795
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: I can touch the corps. Number five is a fetishistic necrophiliacs.

796
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: These are people who remove objects or body parts, even

797
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: from a corpse, for sexual purposes, but without engaging in intercourse. Okay,

798
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: and then as you as you can see where kind

799
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: of this this list is getting worse as we're progressing.

800
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: Uh necro mutual omaniacs. These are people, I know that

801
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: sounds like a made up thing, but this is actually

802
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: sounds like for sure, people who derive pleasure from mutilating

803
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,959
Speaker 1: a corpse while masturbating but not engaging in intercourse. Number

804
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: seven opportunistic necrophiliacs. These are people who normally have no

805
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: interest in necrophilia, but they if they have the opportunity,

806
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: they're going to take it. So yeah, I mean, I

807
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: don't I'm having a really hard time imagining this scenario

808
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: where this would happen. But I guess when you're left

809
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: alone with a dead body for some reason, and yeah,

810
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you're maybe you're performing an autopsy

811
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: or something. I'm not sure. Regular necrophiliax that's people who preferably,

812
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,479
Speaker 1: you know, just want to have sex with the dead.

813
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: So kind of back to that other model that we

814
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: talked about before, like they would even probably tell you, look,

815
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm not one of those exciting kind of necrophiles, them

816
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: old school necrophile. Uh and they're again they're not killing people, right,

817
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: let's be clear about that. That's the next one. Yeah.

818
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: Number nine is homicidal necrophiliacs that we've discussed already, people

819
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: who want to want to commit murder in order to

820
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: have sex with the dead. And then there is the

821
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: tenth one, which is exclusive necrophiliacs, people who have an

822
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: exclusive interest in sex with the dead and cannot perform

823
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: at all for living partners. Now, this is what I

824
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 1: think they categorized. Jeffrey dahmeraz that like in his case,

825
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: this was the only way that he could perform to

826
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: have any kind of sexual gratification and subsequently led to

827
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: him both being homicidal necrophiliac and exclusive necrophiliac. Now, I

828
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: have some other stats here just to roll through from

829
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: that Rossman and Resonic paper, just to give you a

830
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: little more idea about who necrophiles are and uh in

831
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: why they do what they do. Sex in that study

832
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: were male. Um, yeah, and I found one rare female

833
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: case was cited. Uh and I didn't have the time

834
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: to be able to look up the case study on this,

835
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: but her name was Karen green Lee, so apparently she's

836
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: a well known female necrophiliac. Okay. The mean age was

837
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: thirty four, which makes sense. You know, you need to

838
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: be young enough to get around and not have anything

839
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: tying you down, but also your sexual appetite needs to

840
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: have had time to reach this point right right, And

841
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: also probably you would need to be you know, as

842
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: we know about like them taking employment in situations that

843
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: put them in your dead body, as you would need

844
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: to be of age in order to kind of have

845
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: a job like that. Um. Next up i Q. And

846
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: this is really interesting because there's there, has long been

847
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: and still kind of remains, the stereotype of the necrophile

848
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: as being essentially, you know, mentally deficient. That there, you know,

849
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: almost like the example of a stupid reptile just engaging

850
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: with this because they don't know anymore better. But in uh,

851
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 1: in Rossman and Resinus paper, they point out that all

852
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: of the individuals that they profiled had i qs above

853
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 1: eighty and sixty nine percent had i q s above

854
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: a hundred and just to put that in frame of reference,

855
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: normal to average intelligence is ninety two hundred and nine.

856
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: So these, for the most part, we're not dealing with

857
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: with unintelligent individuals. This isn't technically like a disability and

858
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: mental disability. This is deviant behavior. And among true necrophiles,

859
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: sent had i q s above a hundred um sixty

860
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 1: percent of the cases there was a prior history of

861
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: stadistic acts. Uh. Sexual orientation station was pretty much comparable

862
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: to the general population heterosexual thirteen bisexual, nine percent homosexual,

863
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: is not really surprising um un a lying mental problems.

864
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: This is interesting because this also gets into the idea

865
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: that not only this preconceived notion that necrophiles are all

866
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: going to be both mentally deficient and crazy. Only seventeen

867
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: percent were psychotic, eleven percent among true necrophiles had personality

868
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: disorders had unusual belief systems those seventy percent seventy of

869
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: pseudo necrophiles did, which you know, makes sense. If you're

870
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: fantasizing about sex with the dead, you probably have, you know,

871
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: a different worldview from your average Yeah, that's fair of

872
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: those pseudo necrophiles consumed alcohol compared to forty four percent

873
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: of true necrophiles. So I guess that's just I wonder

874
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: what they mean by that, if it's like alcoholism or

875
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: just you know, they they did, they didn't imbibe at all.

876
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: It kind of I guess I kind of think of

877
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: it in terms of, you know, I'm going to need

878
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: a drink for this um. So maybe the true necrophiles

879
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: you actually don't see as much alcohol consumption because it

880
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: is like they are, they're kind of enough in the

881
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: necrophilia camp that there's no need for liquid courage, whereas

882
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: if it's just your fantasy, then maybe it's the kind

883
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 1: of thing that you have to decompress to get down

884
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,959
Speaker 1: to the point where you're fantasizing about it, you know. Well,

885
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: and then fifty seven percent of necrophiles were found to

886
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: be in an employed profession that gave them access to

887
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: dead bodies. We've got a list here, hospital orderlies, more attendant,

888
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: cemetery employees, funeral parlor workers, and as you said earlier,

889
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 1: clerics and soldiers. I found two other studies that I

890
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: feel like I need to be mentioned, but I'm a

891
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: little dubious of the reporting here, and I'd like to

892
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: see some more research or maybe if anybody out there

893
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: has experienced with this kind of research or psychological experience,

894
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: maybe they can tell us what they think. But these

895
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: two studies basically connected the symptoms of necrophilia to both

896
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: autism and Asperger's syndrome. Both these studies came out in

897
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: twleven and basically it seemed like their conclusions were drawn

898
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: from the fact that there was a similar lack of

899
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: empathy between those with Asperger's and those who were interested

900
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: in necrophilia. Uh, that was about it, um. One of them,

901
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: one of these studies said that they they suggested something

902
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: called autistic psychopathy lead to experimentation with chemistry, poisons, and killing,

903
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 1: which subsequently they kind of tied into necrophilia. Uh, these

904
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: studies were the first one is called necrophilia and autistic

905
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: psychopathy and the other one is necrophilia and serial killers.

906
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: Is their evidence for Asperger's syndrome. So, I mean this

907
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: is published research. I wanted to mention it, but I'm

908
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: also a little wary of making a connection between these

909
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: two different kind of mental it's just based on the

910
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: lack of empathy. Yeah, I mean there are only two studies,

911
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: and it's such a a hotbed um topic that I

912
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: would uh yeah, I would hate to spend too much

913
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 1: time on it, but you know, hey, if we see

914
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: more more papers come out, um, you know, maybe we'll

915
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: come back to it. Now. Another interesting thing about necrophilia

916
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: is when you get into the illegal issues involved here,

917
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: because of course corpses are not really people, right, so

918
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: these are crimes that often fall through the cracks unless

919
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: there's a specific necrophilia law on the books, and without

920
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: such a law in place, it often proves difficult to

921
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: prosecute uh necrophiles. Yeah, and so this is, you know,

922
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: something that I guess I never thought about and sort

923
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: of assumed would be on the books, but obviously so rare. Yeah, exactly.

924
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: But there was a case, you know, kind of one

925
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: of the leading cases was in Wisconsin in two thousand six. Uh.

926
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: It turned out there was a case where three men

927
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: were caught while they're trying to exhume a dead woman

928
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: for sex. Uh. The men admitted to it, but another

929
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: reason they know is that they brought a box of condoms.

930
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: I remember this, I think I blogged about That's where

931
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 1: I read about it. It was you were the source

932
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: for this one for me. But so what ended up

933
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: happening was technically their lawyers argued there was no crime

934
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: committed because there was no law on the books that

935
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: said that it was against the law. So this prompted

936
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: Wisconsin Supreme Court two years later in two thousand and

937
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: eight to finally decide on a law that forbid copulating

938
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: with the deceased. So that's one example. I'm sure there

939
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: are many other examples, but it's one of those things

940
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: where I guess, like, until it actually happens and they

941
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: need to prosecute, they don't put it on the books. Yeah,

942
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,760
Speaker 1: are you going to be the weird politician who brings

943
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: up just necrophilia laws when there's no apparent need, right, Yeah,

944
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: that's going to kill your presidential aspects. Incidentally, that blog

945
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: post was one of the first ones I did for

946
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works right after we started the blogs, and

947
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: and it was like immediately they had to hide it

948
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: because they were like, I don't know, there are a

949
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: lot of eyes in the blog. Let's not have this

950
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: be one of the top post. Oh that's too bad.

951
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: I liked it. Well. Uh. One of the other things

952
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: that came out of this when I was looking at

953
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 1: the research here is specifically about the legality is many

954
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: of the families who are involved with incidents like this

955
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: where a family member's corpse is a victim of necrophilia,

956
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: they have a problem with it because they sort of

957
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: psychologically think of the corpse as being their property. Right. So, like,

958
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: as you're saying before, yes, it's not technically a living

959
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: human being. Some people would probably argue, I wouldn't. This

960
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: is a victimless crime, right, But uh, it's not in

961
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: that that the family members see this as being their

962
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: loved one and technically property even though it's not a

963
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: living person. Yeah, it kind of comes down to just

964
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: what a somewhat a complicated area it occupies in our

965
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: in our understanding of of our life and our our

966
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: biological life, even because it's it's that it's our loved one,

967
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: but it's not our loved one. It's that it's a person,

968
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: but it's not really a person still. Yeah, And I mean,

969
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: like I said at the beginning, to you know, this

970
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: is considered to be the ultimate transgression in our culture,

971
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: one of them. Uh, and therefore it's something that we

972
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: both have a hard time talking about in sort of

973
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: empirical terms like we're trying to do today, or in

974
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: legal terms, and then at the same time, it's so

975
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: sensationalized that we can't seem to stop talking about it

976
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 1: whenever it comes up, right. I'm sure if you googled

977
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: Wisconsin necrophilia, there's probably two hundred newspaper articles out there

978
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: from two thousands six when this happened. You know, everybody

979
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: was covering it that week. Yeah, and then yet when

980
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: you start thinking about it, it's like if you have

981
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: a deranged individual and if they were to you know,

982
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: put the question to you, Hey, I'm going to do

983
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: one of two things this weekend. Which should I do?

984
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: Should I dig up a corpse and copulate with it,

985
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 1: or should I kill somebody? Or should I even just

986
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: assault somebody? Like obviously you're gonna pick the corpse one

987
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: because it it is in a sense it's a victim

988
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: was crime. Yeahs not, I would probably uh, you know,

989
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: call the police. Well, yes, that's the correct that's the

990
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: correct answer, you know, even if it's here, no matter

991
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: how good of a friend, I always when I think

992
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: about this topic now, I always come back to Cornan

993
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: McCarthy's novel Child of God, where the central character, Lester

994
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: Ballard is a necrophile. Okay, I haven't read that. It's

995
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: it's exceedingly good. It's one of those books I keep

996
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: coming back to, Um because it's this character is a

997
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: very dark character, but you're so close to him in

998
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: the book. You do sympathize with his with with his

999
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: his psyche to a large extent. It's it's so so

1000
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: very well presented. I think in I was trying to

1001
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: think of fictional examples for this episode. The only one

1002
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 1: I can remember is, do you remember that Marquis Assad

1003
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: movie that had Jeffrey Rush playing the Marquis Assad. I

1004
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: remember when it came out, but I've never seen it

1005
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: in full. There's I believe, a scene in that in

1006
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: which Joaquin Phoenix engages in necrophilia with Kate Winslet's corpse

1007
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: Um And I think, you know, obviously, because it's about

1008
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: the Marquis Assad, there's a certain amount of of bacchanalia

1009
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: to the whole thing, right, Um, But it's but it's

1010
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: if I remember the plot correctly. It's been a long

1011
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: time since I've seen that movie. I believe it was

1012
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: because like he was grieving for her and they were,

1013
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, sort of in love interesting? I should I

1014
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: should maybe see it at some point. I've read. I

1015
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: don't remember it being bad. I've read Disad. I find

1016
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: him to be a fascinating character. Yeah, yeah, I think

1017
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: he's interesting in small doses. I have a hundred and

1018
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: twenty days of Sodom, and I can only read like

1019
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 1: maybe like two or three pages all the time. I see,

1020
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: I tried to read the whole thing. The problem with

1021
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: the h is is that, um, it's basically incomplete, and

1022
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: so the further you get into the book, it eventually

1023
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: breaks down into just an outline of what he intended

1024
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: to finish. Yeah. I think they were originally publicly unreadable pamphlets.

1025
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: Is that right, like a series of pamphlets. I think this.

1026
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: I think it's the one that he secretly wrote in

1027
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: a prison self. So it was it was, it was

1028
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: hidden away for a while, but yeah, never officially finished.

1029
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: So it's just in terms, and not only is the

1030
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: content often difficult to read, but it becomes increasingly unreadable

1031
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: as a word because it's just incomplete. Yeah. Well, yeah

1032
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: that's mine. Market Assad, and you've got Cormac McCarthy to

1033
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: have literally greats it's a great book. Um, James Franco

1034
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: made a movie version, which I've heard good things about.

1035
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: I'll probably never see it, just because it's it's a

1036
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: book I love so much. I have such a crystal

1037
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: it's a kind of marr imaginary. Yeah, but I hear

1038
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: good things. So you know, maybe our you know, listeners

1039
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: out there who aren't is into uh in reading reading,

1040
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: want to you know, see a film. Maybe check it out.

1041
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: If it's true to the book, then it'll it'll do.

1042
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: It does a good job, all right. So do you

1043
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: have it? Necrophilia a topic the meaning to get to

1044
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: for a little bit here and uh, now we have

1045
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: done it. Now it is cataloged. Yeah, and you know,

1046
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: like we said throughout the episode, you know, this is

1047
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: a hugely transgressive topic, both to obviously to engage in,

1048
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: but even for us to just talk about. I mean,

1049
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: I think we were a little wary of it, but

1050
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 1: this seemed like the appropriate venue to do so. So

1051
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: I'm curious out there, you know, what, what what knowledge

1052
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: do you have about this that that we missed? You know,

1053
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: let us know, especially like the animal stuff. I swear

1054
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: there's got to be more out there about animals. That

1055
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: um just is kind of lost, you know. Um. So

1056
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: you can contact us where on social media? Yeah, I

1057
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: mean you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and tumbler.

1058
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: I think we blow the mind on all those. Please

1059
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: write to us on there or to blow your Mind

1060
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: dot com the website, and we'll make sure that the

1061
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: landing page for this episode, as with with with all

1062
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: of our episodes, includes links to related content on the

1063
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: site as well as links out to some of these

1064
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: key sources we're discussing. Definitely, Definitely, and if you want

1065
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: to write us directly, if you've got something long that's

1066
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 1: not gonna fit on Twitter or Facebook message, you can

1067
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: always write us at blow the Mind at how stuff

1068
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

1069
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com