WEBVTT - Grimoire of Horror, Volume 1

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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<v Speaker 2>is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 3>And I am Joe McCormick.

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<v Speaker 2>So over the years here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

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<v Speaker 2>we've done Halloween and Halloween adjacent episodes that pick from

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<v Speaker 2>us sorted tales of one sort or another, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>horrific tale, scary tales, creepy tales, and then use them

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<v Speaker 2>as sort of a springboard to look at a particular

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<v Speaker 2>scientific topic or just look at that story through a

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<v Speaker 2>scientific or cultural lens. At one point we did a

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<v Speaker 2>series of episodes based on different creepypastas. Then Joe and

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<v Speaker 2>I turned to TV horror anthology episodes for a number

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<v Speaker 2>of years, and this year we're starting what I'm hoping

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be a new tradition, one that sticks to shorter

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<v Speaker 2>horror works, but also gets back into the written word,

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<v Speaker 2>which I know many of our listeners missed from the

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<v Speaker 2>days when we did summer reading episodes, so kind of

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<v Speaker 2>meeting me halfway on that as well. Written horror fiction

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<v Speaker 2>often does come up on the show anyway, so it

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<v Speaker 2>seems like a solid direction to go in. Though this

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<v Speaker 2>may be in part because this is our first time

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<v Speaker 2>out of the gate with this particular series. It was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a mad dash to put this episode together,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's going to be a mad dash as well

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<v Speaker 2>for JJ to get it edited and out there, but

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<v Speaker 2>hopefully it'll be worth it. I don't know about you, Joe,

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<v Speaker 2>but I had a number of trials and tribulations finding

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<v Speaker 2>my selection. I had like a list of stories I

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<v Speaker 2>was considering, and then I ended up not really using

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<v Speaker 2>any of those, and I had one that I thought

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<v Speaker 2>was perfect, and then it really took a turn halfway

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<v Speaker 2>through the story and went in a direction that I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't crazy about, and only then I had to start

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<v Speaker 2>from ground from just ground zero on the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think I finally picked out a story

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<v Speaker 2>that is going to be fun to chat about here.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, frankly this I always enjoyed doing our anthology

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<v Speaker 3>of horror episodes, but I had the same issue with

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<v Speaker 3>those when we were doing like TV or movie anthology

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<v Speaker 3>things where I would just spend forever in the pre

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<v Speaker 3>research phase where I'd just be like trying to find

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<v Speaker 3>an appropriate one that had some kind of hook of

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<v Speaker 3>something to talk about that we hadn't already covered extensively before,

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<v Speaker 3>And I gotta admit I'm having the same issue here.

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<v Speaker 3>I spent probably more time trying to find a story

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about than I did actually getting ready for

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<v Speaker 3>the episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we'll go ahead and put the call out

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<v Speaker 2>to listeners. Help us make up our minds in advance

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<v Speaker 2>next year Salloween. If you can think of a really

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<v Speaker 2>great horror, halloweeny, creepy short story that would benefit from

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<v Speaker 2>this treatment, go ahead and write in and let us

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<v Speaker 2>know again months in advance, and that'll help us be

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<v Speaker 2>ready for next year. All right, Well, let's go go

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<v Speaker 2>ahead and jump in here. I'm going to start with

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<v Speaker 2>my selection here. I ended up going with a story

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<v Speaker 2>titled The Maker of Gargoyles by Clark Ashton Smith, who

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<v Speaker 2>lived eighteen ninety three through nineteen sixty one. Clark Ashton

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<v Speaker 2>Smith remains probably my favorite writer of weird fiction from

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<v Speaker 2>the pulp era, mainly for his exceedingly rich and textured

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<v Speaker 2>dark fantasy tales, often stories in which doomed wizards delve

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<v Speaker 2>deep into forbidden knowledge and brings some sort of disastrous

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<v Speaker 2>curse down upon their own heads. Sometimes there's a little

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<v Speaker 2>twist of gallows humor to the whole affair. Along these lines,

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<v Speaker 2>I highly recommend the Tales The Double Shadow, The Seven Geeses,

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<v Speaker 2>and The Empire of the Necromancers. Those are three of

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<v Speaker 2>the finest dark fantasy short stories you could possibly hope

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<v Speaker 2>to read. In my opinion.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that last one, the one where the two Necromancers

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<v Speaker 3>are like wandering around in this terrible landscape sort of

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<v Speaker 3>arguing with each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, and eventually they're like, well, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>go to this ancient tomb city and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>raise every one from the dead and make them serve

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<v Speaker 2>us eternally. And you know, they're absolutely horrible, comedically evil characters,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course eventually the undead creatures that they summon

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<v Speaker 2>rise up against them and tear them to pieces. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>now I have to stress I've never been a Clark

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<v Speaker 2>Ashton Smith completist, though you know, he wrote a number

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<v Speaker 2>of tales set in a very contemporary twentieth century weird

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<v Speaker 2>tales setting. Even though one of them, Return of the Magician,

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<v Speaker 2>is often considered one of his best works and was

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<v Speaker 2>actually adapted into a Night Gallery episode feature featuring Vincent Price,

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<v Speaker 2>but I've never read it. I tend to steer more

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<v Speaker 2>towards his dark fantasy. There's a great deal of his

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<v Speaker 2>work along these lines that I've never read, so his

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<v Speaker 2>work is largely centered in a few different settings, mostly

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<v Speaker 2>within the fantastic realms of Hyperborea, Poseidonus, Avarn, and Zophoqua.

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<v Speaker 2>Today's tale takes us to Avaron. This is a fictional

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<v Speaker 2>French province, and it depends on the story. The stories

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<v Speaker 2>may be said anywhere between the years four seventy five

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<v Speaker 2>CE and seventeen eighty nine see depending on the story

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<v Speaker 2>in question. I haven't read all of these, but I

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<v Speaker 2>do remember the Beast of Averron being quite good.

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<v Speaker 3>He generally, in the story you're about to talk about,

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<v Speaker 3>lays out kind of a landscape that hints at other

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<v Speaker 3>tales yet to be told elsewhere, Like he just mentions

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<v Speaker 3>this dark, haunted wood full of lou Garoo and other

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<v Speaker 3>kind of inhabitants.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, ye, alluding to you know, we've had problems with

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<v Speaker 2>succubi and incubie in the past and that sort of thing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And I haven't read all the tales from

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<v Speaker 2>the Avarn cycle either, so he may be referring to

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<v Speaker 2>specific stories or possible stories, like you said. So, this

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<v Speaker 2>particular short story, The Maker of Gargoyles, was published in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty two and it's set in the year eleven

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<v Speaker 2>thirty eight. If you want to read it for yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>you can find it on the Clark Ashton Smith website

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<v Speaker 2>Eldrick Dark dot com, and it is also featured in

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<v Speaker 2>the collection The Collected Fantasies of Clark Ashton Smith. A

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<v Speaker 2>Ventage from Atlantis the Collected Fantasies, Volume three. Its long title,

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<v Speaker 2>but worth it. This is one of those authors whose

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<v Speaker 2>work is in the public domain, as I understand it,

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<v Speaker 2>So there are a lot of less than satisfying publications

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<v Speaker 2>of his workout there if you're looking for an actual,

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<v Speaker 2>high quality digital or a physical collection, so I recommend this.

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<v Speaker 2>I also recommend there's a Penguin edition that also features

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<v Speaker 2>some of his stories. But if you're looking to do

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<v Speaker 2>it on the cheap, yeah, it's all apparently in the

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<v Speaker 2>public domain, and you can find it all at that

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<v Speaker 2>website I just referenced. All right, So in the story,

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<v Speaker 2>Clark Ashton Smith establishes Avaron is a medieval city on

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<v Speaker 2>the edge of dangerous and evil wilds. A province quote

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<v Speaker 2>a world where the devil and his works were always

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<v Speaker 2>more or less rampant. Here the walled city of Villonne

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<v Speaker 2>has suffered more than its share of demonic cars. But

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<v Speaker 2>everyone's pretty confident that this newly constructed cathedral is going

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<v Speaker 2>to really shore things up. It's going to bring greater

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<v Speaker 2>protection against the darkness. Everything's going to be all right.

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<v Speaker 2>But unfortunately, this is a Gothic world where supernatural evil

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<v Speaker 2>is absolutely real, but who can say for sure about

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<v Speaker 2>supernatural good. It's kind of a gambol on the latter.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's definitely a demon haunted world.

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<v Speaker 3>And I like how in this story, the one main

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<v Speaker 3>representative of the church that we get seems primarily concerned

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<v Speaker 3>with the exquisite sophistication of the representations of evil on

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<v Speaker 3>the cathedral.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and pretty much the only thing that the church

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<v Speaker 2>is able to do to stand against the evil is

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<v Speaker 2>they send to Rome for some high grade holy water. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and it never shows up, it never actually features into

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<v Speaker 2>the story, but that's all they can really do. So

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<v Speaker 2>the cathedral here, as they describe it, pretty standard fair

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<v Speaker 2>Gothic medieval cathedral and so forth, except two of its

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<v Speaker 2>many gargoyles are creations of Villone's own artisan Blasse Reynard.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the titular maker of gargoyles. He's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a coffin Joe character, you know. He's he's hated and

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<v Speaker 2>feared by the townspeople. He has a lot of like

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<v Speaker 2>obvious inner turmoil. Most people tend to just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>put up with him and ignore him the same way

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<v Speaker 2>that they put up with and ignore all of the

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<v Speaker 2>supernatural evil that is writhing in the world around them.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, I'm going to read the description that Clark

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<v Speaker 2>Ashton Smith gives us of these gargoyles.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The two gargoyles were perched on opposite corners of a

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<v Speaker 2>high tower of the cathedral. One was a snarling, murderous,

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<v Speaker 2>cat headed monster with retracted lips revealing formidable things, and

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<v Speaker 2>eyes that glared intolerable hatred from beneath eye brows. This

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<v Speaker 2>creature had the claws and wings of a griffin, and

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<v Speaker 2>seemed as if it were poised in readiness to swoop

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<v Speaker 2>down on the city of Villonne like a harpie on

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<v Speaker 2>its prey. Its companion was a horned sadder with the

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<v Speaker 2>vans of some great bats, such as might roam the

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<v Speaker 2>nether caverns, with sharp clenching talons and a look of

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<v Speaker 2>satanically brooding lust, as if it were gloating above the

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<v Speaker 2>helpless object of its unclean desire. Both figures were complete

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<v Speaker 2>even to the hind quarters, and were not mere conventional

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<v Speaker 2>adjuncts of the roof. One would have expected them to

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<v Speaker 2>start at any moment from the stone in which they

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<v Speaker 2>were mortised. So some terrifying looking gargoyles here, Yes, like

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<v Speaker 2>very detailed, like fine works of art, but really hard

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<v Speaker 2>to take in. We learned that, quite unknown to Renard himself,

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<v Speaker 2>he has just poured all of his hatred for his

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<v Speaker 2>hometown into one gargoyle, and all of his lust for

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<v Speaker 2>the tavern owner's daughter, Nicolette in the other one. Naturally,

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<v Speaker 2>you know it's gonna happen. Hord soon descends on the

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<v Speaker 2>city once more as a swooping demonic monster begins to

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<v Speaker 2>slay people in the night. The body count intensifies. Everyone's afraid,

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<v Speaker 2>but the best anyone can do is against sin for

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<v Speaker 2>that special holy water. Meanwhile, another demonic form, the lusty one,

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<v Speaker 2>is creeping on women all around the city, but leaving

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<v Speaker 2>them untouched and unattacked as if it's not seeking any woman,

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<v Speaker 2>but one woman in particular. All of this comes to

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<v Speaker 2>a head at the tavern one night, deep in his

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<v Speaker 2>cups and himself traumatized by the horror in the streets.

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's important to note that he's not like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the agents of my hatred and lust are running rampant,

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<v Speaker 2>Like he doesn't really put one and two together here,

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<v Speaker 2>But he's drinking in the pub, he's watching a rival

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<v Speaker 2>court fair Nicolette, and eventually he just loses it. He

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<v Speaker 2>causes this big embarrassing scene, and that's when the window

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<v Speaker 2>implode with the arrival of the two animate gargoyles. The

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<v Speaker 2>first of the two begins massacring everyone in sight, spilling blood,

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<v Speaker 2>ripping open throats, and the second one grabs Nicolette, and

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<v Speaker 2>a heavy stone wing of one of the two gargoyles

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<v Speaker 2>catches Reynard in the head and knocks him unconscious. The

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<v Speaker 2>next morning, he awakens in this blood drenched tavern, surrounded

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<v Speaker 2>by dead men and the lacerated but still living body

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<v Speaker 2>of Nicolette. Horrified and suddenly understanding more of the connection

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<v Speaker 2>he has to these monsters, he forces his way through

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<v Speaker 2>the angry crowd. He collects his hammer from his workshop,

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<v Speaker 2>he heads up to the cathedral roof. He finds his

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<v Speaker 2>creations there, and he notices their mouths and their claws

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<v Speaker 2>are bloodied, and so he begins to strike at them

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<v Speaker 2>with the hammer. But then the gargoyle that he strikes,

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<v Speaker 2>the wrathful one, knocks him to the edge of the

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<v Speaker 2>of the roof, and then like sinks one of its

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<v Speaker 2>towels into his shoulder, and I believe takes to the

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<v Speaker 2>air with him, and he's striking at the talent foot

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<v Speaker 2>that holds him. Eventually shatters that foot, but he falls

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<v Speaker 2>to his death in the street. And then we end

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<v Speaker 2>with the archbishop finding his corpse and noting the talent

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<v Speaker 2>limb now relaxed quote as if like the paw of

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<v Speaker 2>a living limb, it had reached for something or had

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<v Speaker 2>dragged a heavy burden with its fearine talents.

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<v Speaker 3>I like that it's implied to me, at least that

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<v Speaker 3>the archbishop's response is when he finds this is like, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>my gargoyles, they're ruined. Yes, It's like as if, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>finding a murder scene where someone has been had their

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<v Speaker 3>head smashed with a vase and the person's like my vase,

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<v Speaker 3>what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yeah, there are other points in the story too

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>where you have more concern given for just the state

0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.080
<v Speaker 2>of the art concerning these gargoyles as opposed to what

0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>their horribleness means, you know, either you know, physically or

0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 2>just the idea of them. This story doesn't deliver or

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I think, aspire to the dizzyingly dark magic vibes of

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.040
<v Speaker 2>other Clark Ashton Smith's stories. I think it's a pretty

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.760
<v Speaker 2>solid little horror tale in its own way. It delivers

0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.240
<v Speaker 2>both a sinister physical monster as well as a tale

0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 2>of twisted inner torment, you know, so you know, those

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.800
<v Speaker 2>are great things to have in a horror tale. And

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.160
<v Speaker 2>I think we can all imagine some version of the

0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>story which the gargoyles are his intentional creations and like

0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 2>conscious minions of his wrath and lust. But instead he

0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.520
<v Speaker 2>only really glimpses his connection to them at the very end,

0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.319
<v Speaker 2>finally realizing that he has poured all of his own

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.200
<v Speaker 2>darkness into these works and that he has to destroy them.

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.840
<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a lot to potentially dig into

0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.240
<v Speaker 2>their regarding a horror writer and his work. And it's

0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 2>worth noting that Clark Ashton Smith himself largely abandoned writing

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.520
<v Speaker 2>in favor of painting and sculpture in the second half

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 2>of his life, So you know, I think it's fair

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to assume a lot of those ideas were on his

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.560
<v Speaker 2>mind when he wrote this tale, and I think this

0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.479
<v Speaker 2>one would. I don't think this has ever been adapted,

0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>but I think it would make a pretty great horror

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.880
<v Speaker 2>anthology adaption, because who doesn't love a great animate gargoyle story? Right?

0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:08.040
<v Speaker 3>Sure?

0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, They're a staple monster in Dungeons and Dragons. They're

0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>the subject of a fan favorite nineteen nineties Disney animated series.

0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.280
<v Speaker 2>Did you ever watch that, Joe Gargoyles?

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.640
<v Speaker 3>I was only a very little bit. I never like

0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 3>followed the story, but I've actually heard good things about

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 3>it from people as an adult, Like, some people think

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 3>it was a really good cartoon.

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what I've heard. I think I may have

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.600
<v Speaker 2>watched one or two episodes as a kid. I've looking

0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.480
<v Speaker 2>back on it. I see it had a tremendous vocal cast,

0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.680
<v Speaker 2>including Keith David in the lead. But I brought it up.

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>I showed an episode to my son. I was like, Hey,

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe this can be the new series we're watching together,

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 2>and he was like, no, thank you. So oh okay,

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.160
<v Speaker 2>so I'm not going to watch it on my own.

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.920
<v Speaker 2>So it's not for me, but a lot of people

0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 2>love it, you know.

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 3>Thinking about movies with animated gargoyles and the stone comes

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 3>to life, there's a great movie scene that's actually the

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.520
<v Speaker 3>opposite process, and it's in Grimlins two, which we covered

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.720
<v Speaker 3>on Weird House Cinema. I remember when the there's the

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 3>joke where the Grimlin escapes the building, falls in wet

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.920
<v Speaker 3>cement on the sidewalk and then flies up to the

0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 3>top of a building, perches, and then freezes in the

0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.160
<v Speaker 3>cement to become a gargoyle.

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad you brought that up. That had slipped

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.760
<v Speaker 2>my mind. But that is one of the many wonderful

0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 2>scenes in Grimlins two. Let's see. On the b movie front, there's,

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.520
<v Speaker 2>of course the nineteen seventy two TV movie Gargoyles that

0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.160
<v Speaker 2>various listeners have suggested for Weird House Cinema, and it

0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:31.400
<v Speaker 2>remains on our short list.

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.920
<v Speaker 3>I believe it's one of those that we've never seen,

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.360
<v Speaker 3>but we keep like five different movies have pinged back

0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.240
<v Speaker 3>to it for some reason. I don't know. What are

0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 3>those like Nexus movies that are like kind of weird

0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.880
<v Speaker 3>and get our attention, but we never watched them.

0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think I've seen part of

0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it maybe on A and E back in the day,

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.600
<v Speaker 2>like on a Sunday afternoon, but yeah, I haven't watched

0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.120
<v Speaker 2>it in a full maybe one day, yeah, one day.

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 2>I'll also point out that the best sequence in nineteen

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 2>nineties Tales from the Dark Side. The movie retails the

0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 2>classic Japanese ghost story a Yuki ownA the snow Woman,

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.600
<v Speaker 2>but with a with an urban setting and a killer gargoyle.

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 2>That's the one that stars James Ramar and Raydon Chong. Yeah,

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and more recently, there is a twenty fourteen film titled

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:20.200
<v Speaker 2>I Frankenstein in which Frankenstein's monster battles gargoyles like CGI gargoyles.

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 2>And I have not seen that, but there's a part

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 2>of me that really wants to watch that. On an

0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:25.320
<v Speaker 2>airplane one day.

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 3>You included a screenshot from it. It looks dreadful, just terrible.

0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 2>It's got some good people involved. I don't know, maybe

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 2>it's good. I don't know. It looks like great airplane viewing, though.

0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm just commenting on the CGI Garboy. No, I know

0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.080
<v Speaker 3>nothing about the movie.

0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Now. Curiously, this is one of the things that really

0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.920
<v Speaker 2>led me to select this story by Clark Ashton Smith

0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 2>is that it apparently plays an important role in the

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.920
<v Speaker 2>establishment of the animate gargoyle trope. Though I should note

0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 2>that naturally, as we've discussed in the show before, myths

0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 2>of sculptures coming to life, these go back to ancient times,

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.879
<v Speaker 2>and we might well look two obvious influences from not

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:12.879
<v Speaker 2>only Pygmalion, but also the Golom of Prague and so forth. Still,

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 2>according to the Ashgate Encyclopedia of Literary and Cinematic Monsters

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:21.000
<v Speaker 2>by Jeffrey Andrew Weinstock, there are two key works, both

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen thirty two, that seem to influence gargoyle fiction

0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.639
<v Speaker 2>to come. One is this story by Clark Ashton Smith,

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.919
<v Speaker 2>and the other is a Lewis Spence tale titled The

0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Horn of Vapula or Vapula I'm not sure which, in

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.639
<v Speaker 2>which a gargoyle is not an evil construct but a

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.320
<v Speaker 2>vessel that a demon is bound to by a corrupt bishop.

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.480
<v Speaker 2>He also cites the nineteen seventy two Gargoyles TV movie

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.800
<v Speaker 2>as the first work to establish a gargoyle as a species.

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.199
<v Speaker 3>Huh. As a species, you mean, like not just a

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.399
<v Speaker 3>sculpture that comes to life, but as a type of

0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:57.880
<v Speaker 3>living being on its own.

0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like, these are creatures, and we may have stone

0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.439
<v Speaker 2>versions of them that sort of thing, as opposed to

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.359
<v Speaker 2>these are creatures that these are sculptures that we made

0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.119
<v Speaker 2>and then they in the case of these two nineteen

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.080
<v Speaker 2>thirty two stories, they either come alive because of the

0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.439
<v Speaker 2>dark magic we've put into them one way or another

0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.440
<v Speaker 2>from ourselves, or you know, we've summoned some demon out

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.800
<v Speaker 2>of the abyss and placed it in the stone form.

0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 3>Right, So the idea of a gargoyle not as a

0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 3>generic term for certain types of sculptures or architectural features,

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 3>but as like an orc with wings.

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, essentially. Now, when it comes to the reality

0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.240
<v Speaker 2>of the gargoyle, we could probably do a whole invention

0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:47.240
<v Speaker 2>episode on these. There are a lot of ins and

0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:53.680
<v Speaker 2>outs here, with different time periods and different architectural styles,

0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and then resurgences of those styles and re explorations of

0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.359
<v Speaker 2>those styles. But the basic are that a gargoyle is

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:06.680
<v Speaker 2>an architectural flourish, is a decorative water spout to drain

0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.760
<v Speaker 2>water away from the building, and the origins of the

0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.440
<v Speaker 2>word itself are often linked to the Old French word gargoui,

0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.439
<v Speaker 2>as well as the Greek gargarazine. If these words remind

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.440
<v Speaker 2>you of the word gargyle, then right on, because that's

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.679
<v Speaker 2>essentially what we're talking about here, a word used to

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 2>describe the clearing or washing of the throat. Again, these

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.480
<v Speaker 2>were animal and or humanoid creatures depicted in stonework with

0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.760
<v Speaker 2>rain water draining out of their spout mouths. The basic

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.480
<v Speaker 2>concept here apparently dates back to the ancient world, with

0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.879
<v Speaker 2>examples found even in ancient Egypt in ancient Greek architecture

0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 2>as well, often taking the form of a lion. And

0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.280
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of a no brainer, right, We can't help

0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:54.199
<v Speaker 2>but anthropomorphize the world around us, so a drainage spout

0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.320
<v Speaker 2>essentially becomes a barfing mouth. You know, many of us

0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.200
<v Speaker 2>did the same thing during the height of the pandem

0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.520
<v Speaker 2>with their Halloween candy shoots, like can I get candy

0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 2>to a child fifteen feet away from me? And should

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I make it a vomiting monster mouth? Of course I

0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:10.960
<v Speaker 2>should make it a vomiting monster mouth.

0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:12.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, you should.

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Now, the term gargoyle itself really comes about during the

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.879
<v Speaker 2>thirteenth century, still referring to water spout flourishes, while the

0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.560
<v Speaker 2>various other non functional creatures I made out of stones,

0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:29.679
<v Speaker 2>various little goblinoid creatures and you know, and whatnot. On

0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.640
<v Speaker 2>the outside or even the interiors of churches, these are

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:39.480
<v Speaker 2>generally described as grotesques or grow teskeeries, generally apotropaic statues

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 2>to ward off evil, you know, getting down to the

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:46.119
<v Speaker 2>basic Corgonian impulse that we see throughout human history, like

0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>let me make a monster face to drive away the

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>evil vibes. The Catholic Church also sought to use these

0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:58.680
<v Speaker 2>statues at times as illustrative aids to reach illiterate masses.

0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 2>But a lot of what we think think about regarding

0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:06.879
<v Speaker 2>gargoyles today are really more properly these grotesques and grothesqueries

0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.840
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to something that is actually spitting water away

0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.919
<v Speaker 2>from the church. You know, we tend to think more

0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.600
<v Speaker 2>of just sort of like corner of the building, monsters

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:22.280
<v Speaker 2>leering out overlooking the empty space between the church and

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.000
<v Speaker 2>the next building. And you know, and then we also

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.639
<v Speaker 2>again we have these different periods of like Gothic Revival

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.960
<v Speaker 2>and even Art Deco. The Art Deco period ends up

0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:36.320
<v Speaker 2>utilizing gargoyles of one form or another, depending how stringently

0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:41.640
<v Speaker 2>you want to use that term. Like I've seen the

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the iconic like bird heads on the Chrysler building described

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 2>as gargoyles for example.

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:49.040
<v Speaker 3>Oh interesting.

0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 2>Now, we love gargoyles in part because they seem counterintuitive.

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a church, one of their monsters all

0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.600
<v Speaker 2>over it, but it's also just part of it. It's

0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 2>like if you see a fancy cathedral, you're like, show

0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:00.359
<v Speaker 2>me the gargoyles.

0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:00.800
<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah.

0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. There's a famous quote a criticism that is attributed

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:10.359
<v Speaker 2>to a twelfth century individual. This is Saint Bernard of Clervaux,

0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:15.120
<v Speaker 2>who was apparently speaking of interior sculptures in the church

0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.200
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to stuff on the outside, but it sometimes

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 2>applied to gargoyles. And I'm not gonna read the quote,

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to paraphrase him, but he was basically saying, hey,

0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 2>maybe we shouldn't have any of these at all, but

0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>at the very least, maybe we shouldn't be paying for them.

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I think Clark Ashton Smith's story kind

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.359
<v Speaker 2>of like toys with this sentiment a little bit like,

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.679
<v Speaker 2>how do how does the church feel about evil monster

0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 2>sculptures on or in the church? Right?

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.639
<v Speaker 3>Well, I made reference to the character I think is

0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.879
<v Speaker 3>the Archbishop Ambrosius, who's like into them, he thinks they're great.

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.360
<v Speaker 3>But it's I think it stated that there are other

0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:54.280
<v Speaker 3>figures in the church who are like, I don't know

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.560
<v Speaker 3>about these things. Seems like an extravagance.

0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Now, a quick note on monster lore. I looked

0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.600
<v Speaker 2>up gargoyles and Carol Rose's encyclopedia, as I often do.

0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.119
<v Speaker 2>From my monsters. She references a Northeastern French legend in

0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.600
<v Speaker 2>folkloric story regarding a kind of dragon known as the gargoyl.

0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.399
<v Speaker 2>She describes it as a kind of river dragon that

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.760
<v Speaker 2>would target fishermen. And there's apparently a legend that a

0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 2>seventh century saint by the name of Saint Romain finally

0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:26.159
<v Speaker 2>baited the creature with two condemned criminals, transfixed it with

0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the cross, and then marched the monster into town, where

0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>it was executed. Thus, the taming of the water beast

0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 2>leads to a tradition of tame beasts that redirect water

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:37.359
<v Speaker 2>away from our churches.

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:40.320
<v Speaker 3>Okay, it feels like kind of a loose fit, but

0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 3>I can see it.

0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So again, there's much more we could say about

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.760
<v Speaker 2>the history of gargoyles, perhaps deserving a full inventioned episode.

0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting to think about all of this, and

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.240
<v Speaker 2>in connection with the story, you know, when we channel

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.080
<v Speaker 2>the dark creative spirit into an act of creation, what

0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.400
<v Speaker 2>is the result. Can a vessel intended to ward away

0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 2>darkness actually aggregate it? Do such creations take on a

0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:04.360
<v Speaker 2>life of their own?

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:06.879
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, certainly. I mean, I think there's a lot to

0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:11.919
<v Speaker 3>be said about the history of creating imagery that is

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be a depiction of evil and is supposed

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 3>to be revolting or scary or something like that, but

0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:19.960
<v Speaker 3>in fact it becomes an object of interest to people.

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 3>People instead they're kind of like, oh, I like that,

0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:24.240
<v Speaker 3>I want more of that.

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. Or in the Clark Ashton Smith story, you

0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:31.080
<v Speaker 2>also get a sense of perhaps here is a horror

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:35.960
<v Speaker 2>writer suddenly realizing that he recognizes more of his own

0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:39.439
<v Speaker 2>inner darkness in these external works of darkness than he

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:44.639
<v Speaker 2>perhaps intended on, you know, or at least it's a

0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:49.040
<v Speaker 2>meditation on that possibility. So it's a yeah, it's I

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:52.600
<v Speaker 2>think it's a it's a juicy little story to bite into. Again,

0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>maybe not on the same level, certainly in my opinion,

0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:57.120
<v Speaker 2>not on the same level as some of his more

0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:02.439
<v Speaker 2>almost darkly psychedelic works, but still a solid little monster story.

0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:03.320
<v Speaker 3>Nice.

0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.520
<v Speaker 2>By the way, Jackie Craven, an author, has a great

0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.880
<v Speaker 2>article about gargoyles for thought dot Co titled The Real

0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Story of the Gargoyle. I recommend checking that out. She

0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.919
<v Speaker 2>goes into a lot more detail, and I also I

0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.760
<v Speaker 2>turned to that in researching this, in addition to Winstock, Websters,

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:20.480
<v Speaker 2>and rows.

0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:22.560
<v Speaker 3>Well, is it time for my selection?

0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:26.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? And I'm excited for this one because you picked

0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:29.600
<v Speaker 2>a story by an author that I've long admired, but

0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I have not read much of in recent years. So

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:33.480
<v Speaker 2>this was a nice return for me.

0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:35.679
<v Speaker 3>Oh cool, Well, I'm excited to hear what you think

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.479
<v Speaker 3>about the story. So I wanted to pick not just

0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 3>a horror story, but because today is Halloween, I wanted

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:44.200
<v Speaker 3>to pick specifically a story that had a Halloween theme

0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.040
<v Speaker 3>or Halloween as a setting. It took me a while

0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:49.240
<v Speaker 3>to find one, find just the right one, but I

0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:54.040
<v Speaker 3>eventually settled on a story by the author Stephen Graham Jones,

0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:56.639
<v Speaker 3>who has come up on the show several times before.

0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 3>I think I talked about one of his horror fiction

0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 3>collections on a summer reading episode we did years ago,

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:05.440
<v Speaker 3>and Rob, I think you actually might have recommended one

0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:08.399
<v Speaker 3>of his novels. Was it Mongrels? The werewolf novel from

0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:09.200
<v Speaker 3>twenty sixteen.

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a really great novel. I hadn't thought about

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.160
<v Speaker 2>this one recently, but it's a coming of age story

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:19.480
<v Speaker 2>with were wolves lovingly crafted, and I think we see

0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 2>a similar sentiment in this story. Maybe this just runs

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:24.679
<v Speaker 2>through all of his writing, but like, these aren't just

0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:28.479
<v Speaker 2>tales of horror and or monsters. There's a lot of

0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.080
<v Speaker 2>like the personal connection there, you know.

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:34.560
<v Speaker 3>Yes, the story we're going to talk about today, I

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 3>think it is a great You can take it as

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:41.359
<v Speaker 3>just a great spooky tale of the weird, but you

0:26:41.400 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 3>can also find a lot of feeling in it, Like

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 3>I found it a strangely moving story.

0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 3>So just brief rundown on Stephen Graham Jones. From my

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.920
<v Speaker 3>point of view, Jones is a prolific and really interesting

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 3>writer who dives into a lot of different genres, but

0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:59.359
<v Speaker 3>much of his work is horror and generally what you

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:03.280
<v Speaker 3>might call weird fiction. So with his fiction, I like

0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 3>the kind of the variety and range of authorial sensibilities

0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:10.760
<v Speaker 3>that you can find all wrapped up in the same piece.

0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.880
<v Speaker 3>Like a Stephen Graham Jones story can be sweet and

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:19.320
<v Speaker 3>thoughtful and even sentimental, but also brutal, grizzly and cruel.

0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:23.800
<v Speaker 3>It can kind of plow straight into very familiar horror

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 3>tropes in a way that does not feel too you know,

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.320
<v Speaker 3>meta or screamy, you know, not overly self conscious, but

0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 3>it can also be like fresh and full of new

0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:37.000
<v Speaker 3>ideas and bring a lot of intellectual curiosity, scary but

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:40.320
<v Speaker 3>also funny, et cetera. So I really like that variety

0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:44.480
<v Speaker 3>you get within his writing. And I also really like

0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.000
<v Speaker 3>that while some of his horror stories do have a

0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 3>very explicit monster or villain, like a you know, a

0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:53.520
<v Speaker 3>cursed item or just a straight up vampire, in the

0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.320
<v Speaker 3>same collection that this story is in, there is a

0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:01.439
<v Speaker 3>pretty awesome messed up vampire story called Welcome to the

0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 3>Reptile House.

0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Have you read that one, Rob, I haven't, but I

0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:07.359
<v Speaker 2>picked up this collection of short stories for this episode,

0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:09.160
<v Speaker 2>so that'll have to be the one I read next.

0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 3>Okay, well, I don't want to spoil too much, but

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:15.960
<v Speaker 3>it involves a tattoo artist who practices a beginning tattoo

0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:19.119
<v Speaker 3>artist who practices his craft on dead bodies at a

0:28:19.119 --> 0:28:23.480
<v Speaker 3>morgue and then happens to in doing so, irritate a vampire.

0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:26.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh but anyway, coming back to my point. So, while

0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:29.679
<v Speaker 3>some of the stories have a more explicit or classical monster,

0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, he writes were wolf tales and stuff, I

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 3>also really like his stories that have ambiguous, strange, unexplained

0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:43.240
<v Speaker 3>situations that just create this thematically loaded atmosphere of dread

0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 3>without a specific monster, or at least not one that

0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:49.000
<v Speaker 3>we ever meet directly. I'm a big fan of that

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 3>kind of story, you know. I like ambiguous horror, the

0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:54.320
<v Speaker 3>kind that does not tell you the full solution to

0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:58.640
<v Speaker 3>the puzzle, that gives you some tantalizing details but leave

0:28:58.720 --> 0:28:59.840
<v Speaker 3>some of the mystery alive.

0:29:00.320 --> 0:29:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like, we don't really know what the rules are

0:29:02.720 --> 0:29:05.000
<v Speaker 2>with this threat, we don't even know exactly what it is,

0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 2>but here it is pushing against the limits of our world.

0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:12.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I like that. So Jones is currently a

0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:15.040
<v Speaker 3>professor at UC Boulder, and I don't know when he

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:18.560
<v Speaker 3>last updated his faculty page on the university website. I

0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:21.840
<v Speaker 3>know those can go untouched for eons, but as of

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:26.040
<v Speaker 3>when I last checked, the final sentence of that page reads. Jones'

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:30.640
<v Speaker 3>current projects are a paleoanthropological thriller set in Boulder, A Slasher,

0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:35.400
<v Speaker 3>and another slasher, God Willing. I do know several of

0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:38.080
<v Speaker 3>his recent novels have been described as slashers, and I

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.560
<v Speaker 3>haven't gotten to those yet, but I would like to Anyway,

0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:43.320
<v Speaker 3>all that aside, the story that I wanted to talk

0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:47.160
<v Speaker 3>about today is called thirteen, and it's the first piece

0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:50.520
<v Speaker 3>in the twenty fourteen collection, After the People Lights Have

0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:53.520
<v Speaker 3>Gone Off. I have a print copy of this book.

0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 3>I was looking around and it seems like maybe the

0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.760
<v Speaker 3>physically it is out of print, I think because I

0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 3>was only finding used to buy, but maybe I wasn't

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:03.040
<v Speaker 3>looking in the right place. I don't know, but I

0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:04.800
<v Speaker 3>think you can get a digital edition, right.

0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I bought it on Kindle for a dollar ninety nine,

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>and that is a steal for an award winning collection

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 2>from an author of this caliber. So yeah, no reason

0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:15.719
<v Speaker 2>not to pick it up.

0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:28.239
<v Speaker 3>So warning that I am going to go ahead and

0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:30.320
<v Speaker 3>summarize this story. If you want to look it up,

0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:32.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, get the collection for yourself and read it

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.680
<v Speaker 3>without any spoilers. Maybe you could go ahead and do that.

0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:37.720
<v Speaker 3>And I also want to say that, of course, it's

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.880
<v Speaker 3>always the case that you cannot communicate the full effect

0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.760
<v Speaker 3>of a piece of literature by summarizing it. But I

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.680
<v Speaker 3>after I tried to summarize it, I found, in particular

0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:48.920
<v Speaker 3>with this story, it is hard to give a sense

0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:51.440
<v Speaker 3>of the feeling and the way that it works as

0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:53.520
<v Speaker 3>horror with a synopsis. So a lot of it just

0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:57.160
<v Speaker 3>kind of depends on little phrasings and the way a

0:30:57.240 --> 0:31:00.040
<v Speaker 3>kind of pyramid of details is built piece by p

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 3>So you'll be missing some of the effect just through

0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 3>a synopsis. But I will do my best.

0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that holds for everything I just

0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 2>did with Clark Ashton Smith's story as well. You know,

0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:15.720
<v Speaker 2>you can summarize it, but you can't really create the

0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of blow for blow build that is present in

0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>a good horror story.

0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 3>So the story thirteen begins, like a lot of Jones' fiction,

0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 3>with a kind of frisky sentence. It says, here's how

0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:29.840
<v Speaker 3>you do it, if you're brave enough. You know a

0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:32.800
<v Speaker 3>lot of his stories have a very a voice, kind

0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:36.800
<v Speaker 3>of speaking directly to the reader's style. Opening and the

0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 3>narrator of this story is presumably an adult or a

0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 3>young man recounting a series of memories from his childhood,

0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:47.000
<v Speaker 3>specifically when he was in middle school around the eighth

0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:49.560
<v Speaker 3>grade or around the age of thirteen. The title of

0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 3>the story, the narrator remembers in his hometown, there was

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.320
<v Speaker 3>a movie theater called the Big Chief. Kind of a

0:31:58.360 --> 0:32:01.440
<v Speaker 3>low effort movie theater because it had only two screens,

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 3>and they were in fact right next to each other.

0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 3>And in fact, originally the two theaters were just one

0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:11.480
<v Speaker 3>big room, now separated only by a heavy curtain, so

0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 3>that sound from one movie would always bleed through and

0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:17.320
<v Speaker 3>become audible to the audience for the other movie. So

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:19.840
<v Speaker 3>there's kind of a loudness war the soundtrack from a

0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.440
<v Speaker 3>war movie with machine guns and mortar shells encroaches on

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:24.840
<v Speaker 3>the quieter movie next door.

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:28.680
<v Speaker 2>I've never been to a movie theater like this. I've

0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:31.280
<v Speaker 2>been to some that have you know, that are a

0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:35.840
<v Speaker 2>little you know, kook ear and a little bit d

0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:38.880
<v Speaker 2>i y to a certain extent, but never one quite

0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.200
<v Speaker 2>like this. There was a was a really good one

0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>in Asheville called the Gray Ol movie House, and I

0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.760
<v Speaker 2>think there will be again, but it was sadly heavily

0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.880
<v Speaker 2>damaged during the flooding there recently. Oh that is sad,

0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:54.680
<v Speaker 2>so look for it in its next incarnation. I think

0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 2>those guys really love cinema. It's a great place.

0:32:57.560 --> 0:33:01.160
<v Speaker 3>Certainly, Best of luck to them. So the narrator of

0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 3>this story sort of relates to this theater personally in

0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:07.080
<v Speaker 3>a number of ways. But one interesting detail he gives

0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:09.720
<v Speaker 3>early on is that the theater is right next to

0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.240
<v Speaker 3>the pizzeria where his father worked when he was in

0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 3>high school. And he thinks about the smooth scars on

0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:18.520
<v Speaker 3>the tops of his father's forearms, which are I guess

0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:21.720
<v Speaker 3>burns from working with the ovens, which he says, yawn

0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 3>with fire like mouths to hell. And it's a lot

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:27.360
<v Speaker 3>of details like this in the story that just kind

0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:30.680
<v Speaker 3>of add up to create the full effect of the thing. Again,

0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:33.560
<v Speaker 3>I can't communicate all of these details in my synopsis,

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:36.400
<v Speaker 3>but I love that kind of stuff.

0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:40.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, these little just sort of fragments of memory that

0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:43.360
<v Speaker 2>he brings up that may not even be too closely

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:45.840
<v Speaker 2>connected to the plot and the story that he is

0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:49.600
<v Speaker 2>laying out, but they are a vital part of the

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 2>vibe that he is building and ultimately that tension of horror.

0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:57.560
<v Speaker 3>That's right. So the story is about the movie theater.

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:00.480
<v Speaker 3>It's not only notable because it's all and kind of

0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:04.760
<v Speaker 3>shoddily built. There is something special about this place. There

0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 3>is a power in it which is hard to explain,

0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:10.279
<v Speaker 3>but everybody seems to know about, or at least all

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:14.279
<v Speaker 3>the kids do. There are weird rumors and stories that

0:34:14.360 --> 0:34:17.880
<v Speaker 3>attach themselves to it. Who knows if they're true. There's

0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:22.319
<v Speaker 3>one very grizzly story that fifteen years ago, somehow a

0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:26.040
<v Speaker 3>guy mysteriously got castrated in one of the bathroom stalls.

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:29.680
<v Speaker 3>The narrator's friend's uncle heard all about it. There's no

0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:31.840
<v Speaker 3>further detail on this story. It's just that kind of

0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:34.239
<v Speaker 3>weird detail you'd hear about when you're a kid. It'd

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:34.480
<v Speaker 3>be like.

0:34:34.560 --> 0:34:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Huh yeah, And no additional real explanation is provided, which

0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>keeps it cryptic and strange.

0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 3>But then he gets to the real point of the story,

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:47.040
<v Speaker 3>which is what should we call it? The game? Maybe

0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 3>the game?

0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:50.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So one of the urban legends that all of

0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 3>the kids know about this movie theater is the following.

0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 3>You get your ticket, your popcorn, you settle in to

0:34:56.520 --> 0:35:00.040
<v Speaker 3>watch a scary movie. It needs to be a horror movie.

0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:02.799
<v Speaker 3>And when it gets to the scariest part, maybe when

0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:06.360
<v Speaker 3>the vampire is approaching the heroine's bedside to drink her blood,

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:09.000
<v Speaker 3>or the killer is raising up the knife, whatever, is

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:11.360
<v Speaker 3>the really scary part that makes you want to close

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 3>your eyes because you can't bear to see what's next.

0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:17.480
<v Speaker 3>You give in, and you do close your eyes, but

0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:20.880
<v Speaker 3>you don't stop there. You also plug your ears and

0:35:21.000 --> 0:35:24.640
<v Speaker 3>hum so that you can't hear what's happening. And then, finally,

0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:27.839
<v Speaker 3>and this is crucial, you suck in your breath and

0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:31.160
<v Speaker 3>you hold it, and you count to one hundred and twenty.

0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:33.360
<v Speaker 3>So you've got to hold it for two straight minutes.

0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.439
<v Speaker 3>And if you can keep your eyes shut and keep

0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:38.719
<v Speaker 3>the sound out and hold your breath for the two

0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:44.719
<v Speaker 3>full minutes, something happens, something dangerous. Now apparently, in the

0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:47.759
<v Speaker 3>world of this story, kids are trying this all the time.

0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:50.880
<v Speaker 3>Everybody tells the story and they all practice it, and

0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:53.600
<v Speaker 3>they do it, but basically nobody ever makes it the

0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.960
<v Speaker 3>full two minutes. They let their breath out early. You know,

0:35:57.080 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 3>they start laughing or something. They look back up at

0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:01.920
<v Speaker 3>the screen, and when they do look back at the screen,

0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.400
<v Speaker 3>they find themselves relieved, giddy in fact, to see nothing

0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:07.960
<v Speaker 3>but the same movie they were so scared to look

0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:10.880
<v Speaker 3>at a moment before. And the narrator says that your

0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 3>friends sitting next to you will be looking at you,

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.920
<v Speaker 3>wanting to know if it worked. So how is it

0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:18.960
<v Speaker 3>supposed to work? Well, you get the feeling that nobody

0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:21.799
<v Speaker 3>really knows. It's just a ritual. We don't know why

0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:24.959
<v Speaker 3>we do it. It just gets passed on. But there

0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:27.279
<v Speaker 3>is an attempt to explain it that feels kind of

0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:30.319
<v Speaker 3>back engineered from the minds of kids trying this out.

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:33.920
<v Speaker 3>The narrator says, quote, how it works is that when

0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:37.560
<v Speaker 3>you're not looking or listening or breathing. It's like how

0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 3>you're supposed to hold your breath when your parents are

0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:43.160
<v Speaker 3>driving by the cemetery. If you don't, then you can

0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:46.480
<v Speaker 3>accidentally breathe in a ghost. That's sort of how it

0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:49.800
<v Speaker 3>works at the Big Chief, with you not breathing, playing

0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.759
<v Speaker 3>dead like you are, it makes like a road or

0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:56.600
<v Speaker 3>a door, and the movie seeps in and then a

0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 3>little later it goes on quote it's there because you

0:36:59.640 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 3>and vice, because you left a crack it could come

0:37:02.520 --> 0:37:05.319
<v Speaker 3>through because you made a sound like a wish, and

0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:08.439
<v Speaker 3>the darkness just washed up in that direction to cover

0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:12.279
<v Speaker 3>it up. Oh, and I love the ambiguity of the

0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:15.040
<v Speaker 3>lore here, Like, how does it connect to the guy

0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:19.400
<v Speaker 3>who supposedly got castrated in the bathroom stall? Unclear, but

0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:22.960
<v Speaker 3>it suggested he must have done this game. Something from

0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:25.440
<v Speaker 3>the movie came out and got him.

0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:28.680
<v Speaker 3>So the narrator goes on to tell the stories of

0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:31.879
<v Speaker 3>two people he knows who enacted the ritual to let

0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.480
<v Speaker 3>the movie in. One was a boy in his class

0:37:35.560 --> 0:37:38.239
<v Speaker 3>named Marcus, who was the new kid in school. He's

0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:41.440
<v Speaker 3>very handsome, popular, full of bravado, and he's on the

0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:43.880
<v Speaker 3>swim team, so he is good at holding his breath.

0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:47.160
<v Speaker 3>His new friends tell him about the movie theater, they

0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:49.680
<v Speaker 3>tell him about the game, so he does it. He

0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:51.800
<v Speaker 3>plays dead for two minutes at the climax of a

0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:56.040
<v Speaker 3>horror movie with this writhing, horrible, tentacled monster. They don't

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:57.920
<v Speaker 3>say what the movie is, but I was imagining like

0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.200
<v Speaker 3>some kind of Cronenberg thing. And then it seems that

0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:04.960
<v Speaker 3>nothing has happened to him. He's fine at first, until

0:38:04.960 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 3>a few months later when Marcus suddenly gets sick and

0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:12.160
<v Speaker 3>dies from the growth of an aggressive tumor, and the

0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:15.440
<v Speaker 3>kids who know what happened. They're in a life sciences

0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 3>class and they see images of tumors and the shapes

0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 3>look familiar to them, and the ones who were there

0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:24.359
<v Speaker 3>that night agreed they think somehow the monster from the

0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 3>movie got inside his body. Next, we learn about a

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:32.040
<v Speaker 3>character named Grace, and this is a character the narrator

0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:34.640
<v Speaker 3>cares about a lot. They've been friends since they were young,

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:36.880
<v Speaker 3>and now they're in middle school and it seems like

0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:39.720
<v Speaker 3>they're in that awkward phase where they're trying to figure

0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:43.080
<v Speaker 3>out if their boyfriend girlfriend or not. But the narrator

0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.000
<v Speaker 3>he is in love with her, and Grace's family has

0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 3>been through troubles. Her father recently moved away and her

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.880
<v Speaker 3>parents separated, and her mother seems to be from clues

0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:58.040
<v Speaker 3>we get suffering from depression, and the narrator plans to

0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:00.360
<v Speaker 3>take Grace to a homecoming game at school, but he

0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:02.920
<v Speaker 3>ends up sick and unable to go, and so he

0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:06.920
<v Speaker 3>stays home by himself. In having fear related to what

0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.800
<v Speaker 3>happened to Marcus. He's obsessed with the idea that he

0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:12.719
<v Speaker 3>has a monster tumor inside him as well because he

0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:14.719
<v Speaker 3>was sitting close to Marcus the night of the game.

0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Could it be contagious, But nothing happens there. So to

0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:22.120
<v Speaker 3>make up for the failed homecoming date, the narrator and

0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:24.760
<v Speaker 3>Grace decide to go see a movie at the theater.

0:39:25.400 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 3>Not a horror movie this time. They're done with the horror. Instead,

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:32.160
<v Speaker 3>they go see a romantic comedy about a young woman

0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:34.840
<v Speaker 3>who gets her heart broken and then her well meaning

0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.520
<v Speaker 3>but bumbling father tries to set her up with the

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:41.239
<v Speaker 3>perfect guy. And it's a comedy of errors. By the way,

0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:44.000
<v Speaker 3>there's a detail that while they're watching this movie they

0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 3>hear screams and clanking metal bleeding over from the theater

0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:50.600
<v Speaker 3>next door. And the movie date is going well, but

0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.279
<v Speaker 3>at one point during the film, the narrator leaves to

0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:55.840
<v Speaker 3>get some more snacks from the lobby and sneaks a

0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:59.400
<v Speaker 3>look into the theater next door, and Jones writes, quote,

0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:02.880
<v Speaker 3>it was in there chainsaws and were wolves. It looked

0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:07.560
<v Speaker 3>like no were wolves with chainsaws. The chocolate and peanut

0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.440
<v Speaker 3>butter of the horror world. Very good line.

0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I'm pretty sure this is not a real movie.

0:40:14.920 --> 0:40:16.920
<v Speaker 2>He's alitty to this is something made up, But I

0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.560
<v Speaker 2>love the idea of the just pure excess of this.

0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:22.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean, he has written novels that invoke both were

0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:25.080
<v Speaker 3>wolves and chainsaws. That one of his recent novels was

0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:26.520
<v Speaker 3>called My Heart as a Chainsaw.

0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, I don't know about that anyway.

0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:31.319
<v Speaker 3>The narrator in the story comes back to Grace and

0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:34.160
<v Speaker 3>he finds her having a strangely emotional experience with the

0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:38.239
<v Speaker 3>romantic comedy. He says that he could see that her

0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:41.920
<v Speaker 3>cheeks were shiny and wet, and that she had her

0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.440
<v Speaker 3>eyes closed, and then when he brushes against her arm,

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.680
<v Speaker 3>she suddenly gets very startled and she starts coughing like

0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:50.480
<v Speaker 3>she's going to vomit, so she runs to the bathroom.

0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.879
<v Speaker 3>Narrator doesn't know what's going on, but then she comes

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 3>out later after the movie and they go home without

0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:59.120
<v Speaker 3>discussing what happened. Then the final setting of the story

0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:02.400
<v Speaker 3>comes a couple of weeks later, on Halloween night. So

0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:05.480
<v Speaker 3>here's the Halloween tie in. The narrator has plans to

0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:09.000
<v Speaker 3>sneak off and smoke cigarettes with the bad kids in

0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:15.080
<v Speaker 3>the graveyard behind a condemned convent building perfect and there

0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:17.480
<v Speaker 3>are more urban legends. I mean they're urban legends throughout

0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:20.439
<v Speaker 3>the story. One is the story that the kids tell

0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:23.360
<v Speaker 3>about the abandoned convent. They say it's haunted by a

0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:26.799
<v Speaker 3>zombie nun who wanders at night carrying a candle in

0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:29.080
<v Speaker 3>front of her, and when she sees you, she comes

0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:31.719
<v Speaker 3>closer and closer, and just when she draws right up

0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:34.360
<v Speaker 3>to you, the candle goes out. The narrator and his

0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:36.960
<v Speaker 3>middle school friends are out in the cemetery behind the

0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.319
<v Speaker 3>you know, the haunted graveyard, and they are engaging in

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.399
<v Speaker 3>a performance of courage. You know, they're breaking rules, doing

0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:45.400
<v Speaker 3>what they're not supposed to. They are treading where the

0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:48.920
<v Speaker 3>ghost thread is high. And at one point the narrator

0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:51.359
<v Speaker 3>steps aside from the group, I think to be sick

0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:54.120
<v Speaker 3>because he smoked a cigarette and you shouldn't have and

0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:55.640
<v Speaker 3>he's going to be sick. And he goes to the

0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:58.600
<v Speaker 3>edge of a small cliff looking out over a neighborhood

0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:01.600
<v Speaker 3>where kids are trick or treating below. He knows that

0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:06.120
<v Speaker 3>Grace is out there because she apparently volunteered to chaperone

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:09.040
<v Speaker 3>elementary school kids for the evening while they're trick or treating.

0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:12.839
<v Speaker 3>The narrator called her mother earlier to try to call

0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:14.480
<v Speaker 3>her house to try to make plans, but her mother

0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:16.440
<v Speaker 3>answered the phone, said where she was going to be,

0:42:16.520 --> 0:42:20.080
<v Speaker 3>and just said look for bo Peep. So looking out

0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:22.560
<v Speaker 3>over the children wandering the neighborhoods in the dark, he

0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.200
<v Speaker 3>does see her in the bo Peep costume with a

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:29.360
<v Speaker 3>shepherd's crook, escorting a second grader in a robot costume,

0:42:30.360 --> 0:42:32.120
<v Speaker 3>and they're just coming up to a house that the

0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.800
<v Speaker 3>narrator knows it's his former English teacher, who would always

0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:38.920
<v Speaker 3>write out verses of poetry on little strips of paper

0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:41.960
<v Speaker 3>and tie them to the candy she handed out on Halloween,

0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:45.200
<v Speaker 3>and the narrator remembers once getting a candy bar from

0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:48.880
<v Speaker 3>her that told him the fields are white, the fields

0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 3>are long, the fields are waiting. He never knew what

0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:54.680
<v Speaker 3>that meant. And frankly, I tried to look this up,

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:56.319
<v Speaker 3>and I'm not sure I might have just missed the

0:42:56.360 --> 0:42:58.799
<v Speaker 3>reference somewhere, but it could be referring to a verse

0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:01.799
<v Speaker 3>in the Gospel of John where Jesus talks about the

0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:05.680
<v Speaker 3>fields being white, meaning essentially, you think that they're not

0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:08.319
<v Speaker 3>ready for harvest, but they are. It is time for

0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:12.719
<v Speaker 3>the harvest and now anyway, what happens next in the

0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:16.560
<v Speaker 3>story is so strange. The narrator sees Grace he's looking

0:43:16.680 --> 0:43:19.080
<v Speaker 3>down from the cliff, and he tries to wave and

0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:21.840
<v Speaker 3>get her attention, but she doesn't see him. Instead, he

0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:24.600
<v Speaker 3>watches as she begins to talk to someone in a

0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:28.280
<v Speaker 3>car that's been driving around the neighborhood. Then, for some reason,

0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.680
<v Speaker 3>she just abandons the kid that she's been chaperoning and

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.240
<v Speaker 3>gets into the car, and it starts to drive away,

0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:37.480
<v Speaker 3>and the narrator is very confused. He runs along the

0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.799
<v Speaker 3>cliff until he finds a place he can climb down.

0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:42.359
<v Speaker 3>He chases through the neighborhood looking for the car, and

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:45.239
<v Speaker 3>finally he sees it just before it it leaves the

0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:48.239
<v Speaker 3>town and pulls out onto the highway. When he sees it,

0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:51.759
<v Speaker 3>he sees the driver and he is sure he recognizes

0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:55.319
<v Speaker 3>the face. It's the face of a movie character, the

0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:58.280
<v Speaker 3>father from the romantic comedy movie they saw in the theater,

0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:02.480
<v Speaker 3>with what the narrator characterizes as a wide, sharp and

0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:05.920
<v Speaker 3>trustworthy smile. He sees them in a flash, and the

0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:09.440
<v Speaker 3>car drives away, and then nobody ever sees Grace again.

0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:13.439
<v Speaker 3>So the implication is that Grace played the summoning game

0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:16.080
<v Speaker 3>two In the interval when the narrator was out looking

0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:19.000
<v Speaker 3>in on the werewolves and Chainsaws movie, she must have

0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:21.919
<v Speaker 3>closed her eyes and held her breath. But it wasn't

0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:24.960
<v Speaker 3>a horror movie. There was no monster, so what did

0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:29.640
<v Speaker 3>she summon? Later, having swirling emotions about this whole series

0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:32.239
<v Speaker 3>of events, the narrator sneaks out one night and he

0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:34.839
<v Speaker 3>sets fire to the movie theater. He burns it down.

0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:37.960
<v Speaker 3>He never gets caught for the arson. His friends come

0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 3>and meet him there and they sort of give him

0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:41.840
<v Speaker 3>an alibi, and they never tell on him, so he

0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.319
<v Speaker 3>gets away with it. But in the fire that night,

0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.319
<v Speaker 3>he sees shapes moving around in the flames, including a

0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:50.719
<v Speaker 3>boy covered in blood and Marcus and his swim goggles.

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.640
<v Speaker 3>And then finally it says quote, and I saw a

0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:56.840
<v Speaker 3>pale white shepherd's crook ahead of them, leading them through,

0:44:57.200 --> 0:45:00.239
<v Speaker 3>leading them on, And he ends the story saying that

0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:04.840
<v Speaker 3>he's waiting to meet her again. So, as I said earlier,

0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:07.960
<v Speaker 3>I love this story, but I think it's kind of

0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:10.480
<v Speaker 3>hard to convey the force of the story in summary,

0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:13.440
<v Speaker 3>because so much of it comes from this careful stacking

0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:18.239
<v Speaker 3>up of these only vaguely related details, but you can't

0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:21.200
<v Speaker 3>tell all of them without just reading the text in full.

0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:23.839
<v Speaker 3>But this is my favorite kind of horror story, one

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.960
<v Speaker 3>that's both evocative and full of all these little observations,

0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:31.399
<v Speaker 3>but also with an original mythology and also just ambiguous

0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:35.640
<v Speaker 3>enough about what it all means. I was thinking, like,

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:38.200
<v Speaker 3>how are we supposed to interpret the way the summoning

0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:42.200
<v Speaker 3>game works, especially since it's presented as just one of

0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 3>many silly urban legends that the kids in the story

0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:49.920
<v Speaker 3>make up and repeat. Where does the power come from? Also,

0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:53.280
<v Speaker 3>how are we supposed to interpret what happens to Grace

0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:56.720
<v Speaker 3>when she tries it? Is it more benign or more sinister?

0:45:57.040 --> 0:45:59.879
<v Speaker 3>I feel like that's kind of left open. Has Grace

0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:03.320
<v Speaker 3>transcended the mundane world and become a kind of shepherding

0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:06.560
<v Speaker 3>angel for the lost? Or has she been like murdered

0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:09.160
<v Speaker 3>by a demon that she invited onto our plane and

0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:12.200
<v Speaker 3>become a ghost ready to reap a harvest of souls?

0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:16.400
<v Speaker 3>And the shepherd's crook is such a wonderful image because

0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:19.120
<v Speaker 3>it adds to the ambiguity there. If you're the sheep,

0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.240
<v Speaker 3>the crook could be seen either as your protection, keeping

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:24.799
<v Speaker 3>you in the flock and away from predators, or it

0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:27.320
<v Speaker 3>could be your doom pulling you in for the mutton slaughter.

0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:30.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's so good. I too love the ambiguity here.

0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:36.600
<v Speaker 2>I also loved the completely accidental synergy with the Clark

0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Ashton Smith story, and that both to some degree deal

0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.200
<v Speaker 2>with the idea of a channeling of dark energy and

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:47.800
<v Speaker 2>works of art, yes, in this case cinema. So it's

0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:52.759
<v Speaker 2>a nice to a certain degree, this story meditates on

0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:54.799
<v Speaker 2>the power of cinema and the importance of cinema in

0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:58.120
<v Speaker 2>our life, and then it has this wonderful coming of

0:46:58.160 --> 0:47:02.160
<v Speaker 2>age energy to it, like young a young character trying

0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>to sort of figure out how he works as a

0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:07.920
<v Speaker 2>as a human and how he fits into the world,

0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:11.960
<v Speaker 2>how the world works. It's just so beautifully put together,

0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and again, to your point, almost completely defies any kind

0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.520
<v Speaker 2>of an elevator pitch, because you can't make a statement like, oh,

0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:20.799
<v Speaker 2>this is a movie about a monster that's X, or

0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 2>about a haunting that's why. No, it's You've got to

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:26.000
<v Speaker 2>take in all the pieces in order to get the

0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:26.760
<v Speaker 2>full mosaic.

0:47:27.000 --> 0:47:29.080
<v Speaker 3>I feel it took me great length to explain it,

0:47:29.120 --> 0:47:30.759
<v Speaker 3>and I feel like I still didn't fully get it,

0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:44.040
<v Speaker 3>like you cannot summarize this story in a sentence. Another

0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:46.040
<v Speaker 3>thing I really love about the story is that it

0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:50.799
<v Speaker 3>creates an original urban legend. And it's not just a

0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.520
<v Speaker 3>descriptive legend, one that tells a story, but it's the

0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:58.080
<v Speaker 3>kind of legend that has an enacted ritual. So with

0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:01.040
<v Speaker 3>this kind of urban legend, you you can go through

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 3>the steps of a specified behavioral algorithm, and in doing so,

0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:09.680
<v Speaker 3>you can experience the subject of the legend directly in

0:48:09.760 --> 0:48:13.120
<v Speaker 3>some kind of paranormal encounter. I was trying to figure

0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:15.359
<v Speaker 3>out if there is a standard term for this type

0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:19.840
<v Speaker 3>of ritual summoning game in the anthropology, in folklore literature.

0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:22.880
<v Speaker 3>Maybe there is. If so, I couldn't identify what that

0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:27.080
<v Speaker 3>term is, but a well known example from American culture

0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.040
<v Speaker 3>would be the Bloody Mary game. Where you stand in

0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.360
<v Speaker 3>front of a mirror in a dark room, perhaps on

0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:36.359
<v Speaker 3>Halloween night in some versions, and you recite an incantation.

0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:39.840
<v Speaker 3>Often it's just the name Bloody Mary a specified number

0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:42.960
<v Speaker 3>of times, maybe you say three times or thirteen times,

0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:47.480
<v Speaker 3>and according to the legend, you will have a supernatural encounter.

0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:50.400
<v Speaker 3>Maybe you will see a witch standing behind you in

0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:52.880
<v Speaker 3>the mirror, or maybe you'll see a woman covered in

0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:56.279
<v Speaker 3>blood who screams at you, or maybe a ghost that

0:48:56.400 --> 0:48:58.480
<v Speaker 3>reaches out of the mirror and tries to harm you,

0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:02.080
<v Speaker 3>tries to attack your eye or something. And though I'm

0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:05.640
<v Speaker 3>less familiar with these, apparently ritual ghost summoning games are

0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:09.640
<v Speaker 3>very popular in multiple East Asian cultures as well. For example,

0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.280
<v Speaker 3>there's something known as the I think the Corner game

0:49:12.360 --> 0:49:15.960
<v Speaker 3>in Korea or the Square game in Japan, which involved

0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:18.239
<v Speaker 3>four participants, and it's a similar kind of thing. You

0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:22.240
<v Speaker 3>do a sequence of activities and it's supposed to summon

0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:22.720
<v Speaker 3>a ghost.

0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:28.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this weird connection between thought and action and ideas

0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:31.240
<v Speaker 2>of the supernatural. And if you put thought and action

0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:35.000
<v Speaker 2>in motion, like what does that? What does that do?

0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:35.319
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:39.880
<v Speaker 2>It's weird because that also sounds like completely simple, like

0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:42.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm making them out out of a molehile here, But

0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:46.880
<v Speaker 2>there is there's something strange going on. I think we

0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:50.760
<v Speaker 2>we sometimes interact with this in a like non game

0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:56.319
<v Speaker 2>even almost subconscious level, you know, like choosing not to

0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:58.839
<v Speaker 2>think about the thing that you know isn't real lest

0:49:58.840 --> 0:49:59.680
<v Speaker 2>it become real.

0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:04.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, totally, No, I think we do, even people

0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:07.800
<v Speaker 3>who you know, at the rational level, you don't think

0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.080
<v Speaker 3>that your activities it will become a kind of spell

0:50:11.120 --> 0:50:13.239
<v Speaker 3>to summon spirits. You know, there's a part of you

0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:15.680
<v Speaker 3>that wonders, and you just kind of shy away from it.

0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:18.879
<v Speaker 3>And it does require I would say, like, I am

0:50:18.960 --> 0:50:22.040
<v Speaker 3>not a person who believes in ghosts. I don't literally

0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:24.160
<v Speaker 3>believe in ghosts, but I think it would take some

0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:27.840
<v Speaker 3>real bravery for me to play a ghost summoning game,

0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:32.400
<v Speaker 3>because like there's a difference between what you consciously assent

0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:35.640
<v Speaker 3>to believing and what kind of scares you in theory.

0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:40.880
<v Speaker 2>My family and I we've been watching Agatha all along,

0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:45.040
<v Speaker 2>which is a witch based show on Disney about the

0:50:45.040 --> 0:50:47.080
<v Speaker 2>witch Agatha or Coven, and there's a scene with the

0:50:47.120 --> 0:50:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Wigi board, and so we had to explain to our

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:51.160
<v Speaker 2>son what a Ouiji board is because they just had not

0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:54.239
<v Speaker 2>been exposed to it. And it's weird to explain this

0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:57.760
<v Speaker 2>as like, oh, yeah, it's like a supernatural summoning game

0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:01.160
<v Speaker 2>that as children growing up up and you know, predominantly

0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:06.279
<v Speaker 2>you know these very you know, Christian environments, you were

0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:08.959
<v Speaker 2>totally not supposed to do. It was witchcraft. Stay away

0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:11.279
<v Speaker 2>from it. But at the same time, you could buy

0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:12.000
<v Speaker 2>it at Walmart.

0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:20.239
<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly, made by Parker Brothers. Yeah, so, I don't know.

0:51:20.520 --> 0:51:23.800
<v Speaker 3>This story got me thinking about these kinds of summoning games.

0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:28.080
<v Speaker 3>Scholars studying the history of the Bloody Marry game. In fact,

0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:31.480
<v Speaker 3>they relate it back to earlier summoning games. I think

0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:33.400
<v Speaker 3>there were a lot around the turn of the twentieth

0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:37.360
<v Speaker 3>century which were sometimes practiced by young women with the

0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 3>goal of seeing the face of their future husband.

0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:42.919
<v Speaker 2>This is oh my god. Yeah, that's like gets into

0:51:42.920 --> 0:51:44.799
<v Speaker 2>a whole other realm of board games, right, like those

0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:46.000
<v Speaker 2>yeah street date stuff.

0:51:46.239 --> 0:51:48.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly. So you know. A version of this is

0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:51.920
<v Speaker 3>you like get a candle and a handheld mirror and

0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:55.560
<v Speaker 3>you walk backwards up or down a staircase holding the

0:51:55.560 --> 0:51:58.440
<v Speaker 3>candle in the mirror. Don't please do people, no one

0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:01.600
<v Speaker 3>listening try this because you heard it. That sounds so dangerous.

0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.360
<v Speaker 3>But you do this, and then you look in the

0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:07.680
<v Speaker 3>mirror and you are supposed to see a glimpse of

0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:11.640
<v Speaker 3>the future, either your future husband's face or you see

0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:15.240
<v Speaker 3>the grim face of death, which means you'll die instead.

0:52:15.719 --> 0:52:18.360
<v Speaker 3>And other versions of this don't rely on a staircase,

0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:20.719
<v Speaker 3>just a dark room and a mirror, some kind of

0:52:20.800 --> 0:52:24.440
<v Speaker 3>ritual Rabbi attached here for you to look at. Some

0:52:24.600 --> 0:52:27.319
<v Speaker 3>just like one hundred year old Halloween postcards that are

0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:29.879
<v Speaker 3>like again to come back to, like the Parker Brothers thing.

0:52:30.120 --> 0:52:32.440
<v Speaker 3>These are just like mass produced postcards that are like,

0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:34.480
<v Speaker 3>here's how you look in the mirror and see the ghost.

0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:37.560
<v Speaker 3>But I guess it's a little more benign because it's

0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:40.759
<v Speaker 3>giving you this supposedly happy information about like ooh, look

0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:42.800
<v Speaker 3>at the handsome face of your future husband.

0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, look at the cute cartoon cat in the background. Yeah.

0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I love old timy Halloween stuff like this.

0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:52.000
<v Speaker 3>So the technical term for divination specifically with the use

0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:56.960
<v Speaker 3>of a mirror is catoptromancy from catoptron Greek for mirror,

0:52:57.480 --> 0:52:59.719
<v Speaker 3>and in a more general sense, as a type of

0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:03.120
<v Speaker 3>div nation practice. This has been documented since ancient times

0:53:03.160 --> 0:53:06.759
<v Speaker 3>in many cultures. The treatment of it more like a

0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:11.360
<v Speaker 3>scary game allah bloody Mary, played by young people to

0:53:11.520 --> 0:53:15.719
<v Speaker 3>conjure a supernatural encounter. I'd say, primarily for fun and

0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:19.160
<v Speaker 3>to test one's bravery. That's something I would be really

0:53:19.160 --> 0:53:22.760
<v Speaker 3>interested in finding evidence of going farther back in history,

0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:25.440
<v Speaker 3>but I couldn't. I wasn't able to turn up anything

0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:28.440
<v Speaker 3>explicitly of that sort. It seems like the most ancient

0:53:28.480 --> 0:53:33.759
<v Speaker 3>references to catoptromancy are about sincere attempts at divination, genuine

0:53:33.920 --> 0:53:37.719
<v Speaker 3>desires to get hidden information from the gods or from

0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:40.400
<v Speaker 3>the spirit world, or to commune with the souls of

0:53:40.440 --> 0:53:44.600
<v Speaker 3>the dead. So that obviously the lack of evidence doesn't

0:53:44.680 --> 0:53:46.839
<v Speaker 3>rule out that there were games of this sort going

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.520
<v Speaker 3>back hundreds or thousands of years. I just haven't come

0:53:49.560 --> 0:53:54.080
<v Speaker 3>across that documentation of that anyway, whether it's for sincere

0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:56.760
<v Speaker 3>attempts to get hidden information or just as a game

0:53:56.800 --> 0:54:01.320
<v Speaker 3>you play to scare yourself for fun. It's interesting to

0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:05.920
<v Speaker 3>think about the phenomenon of seeing faces in mirrors. I

0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:08.560
<v Speaker 3>don't have space to rehash everything here, but in our

0:54:08.600 --> 0:54:12.080
<v Speaker 3>series on the Invention of the mirror, we extensively got

0:54:12.120 --> 0:54:15.319
<v Speaker 3>into research on something known as the strange face in

0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:19.480
<v Speaker 3>the mirror effect, which is a documented psychological phenomenon where

0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:25.960
<v Speaker 3>people with typical psychological histories will often report hallucinating strange

0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:29.640
<v Speaker 3>faces if they simply stare into a mirror for a

0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:33.200
<v Speaker 3>long period of time in low light conditions. I think

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.560
<v Speaker 3>the rough numbers were that if you just like darken

0:54:36.600 --> 0:54:39.240
<v Speaker 3>a room look in a mirror for ten minutes, roughly

0:54:39.400 --> 0:54:44.279
<v Speaker 3>two thirds of people reported seeing weird stuff. This was

0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:47.920
<v Speaker 3>largely explored in some papers by a researcher whose name

0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.720
<v Speaker 3>is Giovanni Caputo, and there are a number of interesting

0:54:51.920 --> 0:54:55.239
<v Speaker 3>perceptual and neurological explanations that might contribute to it. But

0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:58.359
<v Speaker 3>the strange face in a mirror effect has been postulated

0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:02.920
<v Speaker 3>as contributing to the pop popularity of catoptromancy games and

0:55:03.160 --> 0:55:05.680
<v Speaker 3>things like Bloody Mary. Due to this common quirk in

0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:09.600
<v Speaker 3>our brains, it's apparently just not unusual to actually see

0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.800
<v Speaker 3>weird stuff if you stare into a mirror in a

0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:14.560
<v Speaker 3>darkened room. And it doesn't take drugs, it doesn't take

0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:18.240
<v Speaker 3>a history of hallucinations. It's just a normal thing that happens.

0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:20.319
<v Speaker 3>So if you want to hear all the details about

0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:22.760
<v Speaker 3>that research, go look up our episodes on the invention

0:55:22.840 --> 0:55:25.400
<v Speaker 3>of the mirror. We go in depth there. But to

0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:27.799
<v Speaker 3>bring it back to the Stephen Graham Jones story, I'm

0:55:27.880 --> 0:55:33.719
<v Speaker 3>interested that this invented ritual, this invented summoning game, involves it,

0:55:33.920 --> 0:55:35.800
<v Speaker 3>like there are a lot of parallels with the Bloody

0:55:35.800 --> 0:55:38.560
<v Speaker 3>Mary thing, but it involves not a mirror, but a

0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:45.120
<v Speaker 3>movie screen, and not prolonged staring, not prolonged stimulus relating

0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:49.560
<v Speaker 3>to the surface, but actually the opposite, completely cutting yourself

0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:53.520
<v Speaker 3>off from the stimulus while everyone around you is still watching.

0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:58.000
<v Speaker 3>So by playing dead and not watching the scariest part

0:55:58.040 --> 0:56:01.200
<v Speaker 3>of the movie, this is actually what quote lets the

0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:05.840
<v Speaker 3>movie in. It conjures the most terrifying or powerful aspect

0:56:05.920 --> 0:56:09.719
<v Speaker 3>of it into our world. I love this variation and

0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:12.839
<v Speaker 3>I love how it interacts with the standard lore. And again,

0:56:12.960 --> 0:56:15.160
<v Speaker 3>I don't know exactly what to say about what it means,

0:56:15.160 --> 0:56:16.320
<v Speaker 3>but it feels so potent.

0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you know, this reminds me of something my

0:56:20.400 --> 0:56:24.520
<v Speaker 2>friend David Streepy does or used to do, where he

0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:26.160
<v Speaker 2>said that if he was watching a scary movie and

0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:29.000
<v Speaker 2>there was a scary part, he didn't necessarily want to

0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:31.520
<v Speaker 2>watch the scary part and he would like squint his

0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:34.359
<v Speaker 2>eyes blur out his vision during that portion. You know.

0:56:34.880 --> 0:56:37.279
<v Speaker 2>So maybe it is rooted in sort of especially a

0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:42.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, a childhood attempt to sort of save face

0:56:42.760 --> 0:56:45.120
<v Speaker 2>but make it through the scary parts of the movie

0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:49.160
<v Speaker 2>without actually watching them. And yeah, it kind of turns

0:56:49.160 --> 0:56:52.000
<v Speaker 2>that on its head. What if by not watching you're

0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:56.160
<v Speaker 2>allowing it to seep into you in other ways. But again,

0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:58.440
<v Speaker 2>it's very ambiguous here, and that's kind of the beauty

0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:02.279
<v Speaker 2>of the Stephen Graham Jones. You know what actually is

0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:04.960
<v Speaker 2>going on here? Am I? What am I doing or

0:57:05.000 --> 0:57:08.520
<v Speaker 2>doing wrong that allows the darkness to seep in at

0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:12.120
<v Speaker 2>least at this one theater, you know, wherever it is

0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:13.840
<v Speaker 2>and whatever its dark history may be.

0:57:14.440 --> 0:57:17.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I love that story. I love a lot

0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:20.320
<v Speaker 3>of Stephen Graham Jones's work, And if you want to

0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.800
<v Speaker 3>pick up that collection, you look for after the people

0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:25.280
<v Speaker 3>lights have gone off in twenty fourteen.

0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I noticed that Joe R. Lansdale wrote the introduction

0:57:28.480 --> 0:57:31.600
<v Speaker 2>to that collection, which I think is fitting because, I mean,

0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:34.040
<v Speaker 2>these are both authors of sort of the same era,

0:57:34.200 --> 0:57:37.240
<v Speaker 2>I believe, and their work kind of reminds me of

0:57:37.600 --> 0:57:40.480
<v Speaker 2>each other's work. You know, both have a often have

0:57:40.560 --> 0:57:44.080
<v Speaker 2>a great sense of sort of in a way something

0:57:44.120 --> 0:57:45.760
<v Speaker 2>that Stephen King did a lot. I mean, Stephen King

0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:49.720
<v Speaker 2>wrote a lot about author about professional writers dealing with

0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:52.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, darkness, but also a lot of like working

0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:58.440
<v Speaker 2>class blue collars sort of characters encountering a very you know,

0:57:59.360 --> 0:58:04.840
<v Speaker 2>unpaved road level version of horror. And I get that

0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:06.720
<v Speaker 2>in these two authors as well.

0:58:07.040 --> 0:58:09.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I'm gonna have to look and figure out

0:58:09.560 --> 0:58:15.400
<v Speaker 3>if Stephen Graham Jones's paleo anthropological thriller and Slasher and

0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Other Slasher are already out, so I'm I'm gonna try

0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:20.480
<v Speaker 3>to read them.

0:58:21.440 --> 0:58:24.400
<v Speaker 2>All right. Well, there we have a couple of I

0:58:24.400 --> 0:58:28.840
<v Speaker 2>think solid Halloween stories for you to potentially read, or

0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:31.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe you have read them, or maybe you feel like, Okay,

0:58:31.400 --> 0:58:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I got enough, I don't need to read them, but

0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:35.680
<v Speaker 2>you have thoughts about them, you know, write in. We

0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.080
<v Speaker 2>would love to hear from you. If you have ideas

0:58:38.120 --> 0:58:40.240
<v Speaker 2>for next year, If you want us to continue this series,

0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:43.080
<v Speaker 2>ride in and let us know. Just a reminder that

0:58:43.080 --> 0:58:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and

0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:48.040
<v Speaker 2>culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but

0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:50.600
<v Speaker 2>on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:53.480
<v Speaker 2>talk about a weird film on Weird Houses Cinema. If

0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:56.880
<v Speaker 2>you're on Instagram, follow us. We are stb ym podcast

0:58:57.320 --> 0:58:59.880
<v Speaker 2>and that's a good way to just stay abreast of

0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:02.080
<v Speaker 2>whatever's coming out in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind

0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:02.760
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0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:07.440
<v Speaker 3>Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:09.240
<v Speaker 3>If you would like to get in touch with us

0:59:09.280 --> 0:59:11.760
<v Speaker 3>with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

0:59:11.760 --> 0:59:13.760
<v Speaker 3>a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

0:59:14.080 --> 0:59:16.760
<v Speaker 3>you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:25.240
<v Speaker 3>your Mind dot com.

0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:28.360
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