1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep writers safe. We're cleaning before 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: you have found halfs out of suns of statist no masks, 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: no Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Find out more at well Notta dot com slash doing 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: our part. My judgment, the economic consequences are so small, 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: but the possible improvement in trade and exports and open 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: markets from the United States, this is worthwhile doing. That's 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: the gamble. That's the gamble to me. The biggest differences 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: uh In the United States we have an electure for 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: a couple of years and politicians are answerable immediately to 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: the voters, whereas in China they can wait a long time, 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and you don't have a media intentionally whipping up fear 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: and angst, some of which may be justified, was certainly 18 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: not all. Gordon Chang joins this. Gordon is an author 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: and calumnist, an authority on Asian affairs, and a realist. 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: You can find him at Gordon g Chang, and he's 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: also calumnist at The Daily Beast. Gordon welcome, How are you, sir? 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm fine, thank you, and thank you so much. It's 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: our pleasure. Why is the Trump administration willing to endure 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: the pain of tariffs, the controversy, etcetera. What is the goal? Well, 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: there are a number of goals. You know, President Trump 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: talks about evening out the trade deficit, but also I've 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: got to remember that the tariffs and question are imposed 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: under Section three or one of the Trade Act of 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. These are remedies for the theft of 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: US intellectual property, and China each year steals somewhere between 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty to six hundred billion dollars of 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: US i P, probably in the speed of four hundred 33 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: billion dollar range. This is a grievous moon to the 34 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: American economy and we've got to stop it. So Um, 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: that's why we have what people call a trade war. 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, the Chinese have been waging this 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: trade war against the US for decades. We've been oblivious, um, 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: and fortunately we have a president who is now willing 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: to take the Chinese. On previous presidents have not been. Yeah, 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: it reminds me it's at the economic version of when 41 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: we were attacked by al Qaeda and hey, look, they've 42 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: been at war with us for decades. We just ignored 43 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: the fact that they were at war with us. Same 44 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: thing with this trade war. China has been in a 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: trade war and and and kicking our ass for years 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: and now we're finally responding. Yes, So that's that's absolutely 47 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: true when you look at the persistent theft of US 48 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: intellectual property, also just violations of China's World Trade Organization 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: obligations to the United States under sees and paying the 50 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: current ruler um. Both ip theft and trade violations have 51 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: gotten worse, and obviously something has to be done about it. 52 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: And we can't think that we can get out of 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: decades of miss guy to trade policy without costs. This 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: will cost the American people, but it's a cost that 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: we will have to bear. If we don't bear this cost, 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: we're not going to have an economy of the future. 57 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: We're not going to have a society of the future. 58 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna end up exporting primary products in China and 59 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: buying back manufactured goods. And by the way, some people 60 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: say that that's a badge of colonialism. So I don't 61 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: want to be a colony of China, Gordon. Chang is 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: on the line, Gordon. The Chinese economy has has relied 63 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: substantially on stealing technology, very strong arm tactics, tariffs, that 64 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing for a long time. How far do 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: you think that Trump administration can push them? Um? How 66 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: how far can she go without causing such a shock 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: to his entire system that, you know, the Communist Party collapses. 68 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: I think China is in a very difficult position. Um. 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: We've got to remember that last year, China's merchandise trade 70 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: surplus with the US accounted for our hundred and nine 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: point six percent of its overall merchandise surplus. That shows 72 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: amazing dependence on us. Also, we've got the bigger economy, 73 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: We've got economy that in reality is growing faster, and 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: we're just not dependent on selling things to China, as 75 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: the trade statistics show. Um. Siege and Pain doesn't face 76 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: elections every um four years, but he in effect pass 77 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: on election every day because he's held responsible for this 78 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: trade war. He's held responsible for who lost America. And 79 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: the reason why I think he withdrew the commitments that 80 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: he had previously made to the United States for trade 81 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: was essentially because he realized that he does not have 82 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: the power to exert his will on other people in 83 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: the Chinese political system. I think China is in real 84 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: trouble right now, especially because you know, trade surplus countries 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: just generally don't win trade wars. China is a surplus 86 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: country where the deficit country we hold almost all the 87 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: high cards. Interesting. Yeah, so back to my question, you know, 88 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: will will they put up with being made to fundamentally 89 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: change the way they deal with foreign investment and foreign 90 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: trade or do we just get, you know, an incremental 91 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: victory and say, well it's better. Well, I think that 92 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: right now, Sieging paying is pursuing this nationalist narrative going 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: back to the Opium War, you know, basically nineteenth century 94 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: humiliation of China, and that makes us it very hard 95 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: for him to adjust. UM. So I don't know if 96 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: he can actually come to a trade deal. I think 97 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: we're going to see a long term struggle with China UM, 98 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: which will be obvious with increased tariffs and were Eventually 99 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: we're going to see the two economies disengaged from each other. 100 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: And I think actually that's quite a good thing for us, 101 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: because long term UM disengagement is the only policy that 102 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: has not failed. So UM China is going to be 103 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: is going to go through. You know, you very well 104 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: may not survive. The Communist Party may not survive this UM, 105 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: but you know, we don't have a choice. We've got 106 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: to defend ourselves, whatever the consequences are for Beijing. Gordon 107 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: g Chang is the author of Losing South Korea, booklet 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: released by Encounter Books in March of this year. Author 109 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: and columnist at Gordon g Chang and at The Daily 110 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: Beast Gordon, it's always enlightening. Thanks very much. Oh, thank 111 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: you so much. I really appreciate being on your air. 112 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: Good to talk to you. Thanks. Oh yeah, yeah, he's 113 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: he's a nice saw mom does mean he likes being 114 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: on our show. There's a lot of nice people out 115 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: there that don't want to be on our show, granted 116 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: most of them. So you got you got, Gordon. They're 117 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: saying that, indeed, if we take it to the wall 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: and hold our ground, this could be crippling for g 119 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: and the Chinese Party. Did everybody follow that whole trade surplus, 120 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: trade deficit, thing they need to sell to the United States. 121 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: We're their biggest, you know, customer. We stopped showing up 122 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: to their soda shops. Soda shop, what is this nineteen 123 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: fifty Uh? What do you color? Where you get the 124 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: like the jamba juice, that's a smoothie. We stopped showing 125 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: up and valuing the vape pens because we buy a 126 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: hell of a lot of ape pens. They go out 127 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: of business. On the other hand, we run the smoothie shop. 128 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: They only stopped by once a month. That's fine, they 129 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: stopped coming. We'll be disappointed. We'll lose a little business. 130 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: But so that's the relationship. But I tell it, he 131 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: was very bold about how weak they are. I mostly 132 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: agree with them, but we'll have to see. I'm still 133 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: quite optimistic that we reach a good deal. But man, 134 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: asking a totalitarian communist regime to stop commying on foreign 135 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: companies and investors, that's that's a big gask. We shall 136 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: see when you're ready to ride Metro, we want you 137 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: to know we're ready for you. Here are just a 138 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: few of the people at Metro to tell you how 139 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: we're doing our part to keep writers safe. Were cleaning 140 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: like never before. Half to the great clean you've found 141 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: hand sound of sounds of statis all over the Metro. 142 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: No mask, no Metro need one. We have a few 143 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep the 144 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: DC area moving. Find out more at well mata dot 145 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: com slash doing our part.