Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four eight of Airpy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. It can often feel like
Speaker 1: healing should look a certain way. Meditating, journaling, seeing your affirmations.
Speaker 1: These are surely all factors of the healing process. But
Speaker 1: what happens when you know you need to dig deeper
Speaker 1: but can't figure out how. Sometimes healing isn't as esthetic
Speaker 1: or straightforward as it looks online. It's messy, it's nonlinear.
Speaker 1: It's showing up to do the hard work when you'd
Speaker 1: rather keep it light. So today I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: have Debbie Brown join us again. Debbie is a well
Speaker 1: being educator, multidisciplinary healer, author, and host of the Deeply
Speaker 1: Well podcast. As the founder of Debbie Brown well Being,
Speaker 1: she has dedicated her career to helping leaders, artists, and
Speaker 1: athletes navigate healing, self discovery, and person of growth through mindfulness,
Speaker 1: spiritual psychology, and holistic wellness practices. After serving as Chief
Speaker 1: Impact Officer at Choprah Global, she now sits on the
Speaker 1: board of the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies. She's also
Speaker 1: the author of Crystal Bliss and most recently, Living in Wisdom.
Speaker 1: In today's conversation, we explore this deeply introspective and thorough
Speaker 1: guide to emotions and values, cultivating self connection and unlacking
Speaker 1: one's highest potential to build a stronger foundation rooted in
Speaker 1: holistic healing. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag
Speaker 1: TBG in session, or join us over in our Patreon channel.
Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode, You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me again. Demy.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what thank you for having me. This
Speaker 2: is the conversation I've been waiting for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like it has been a long time.
Speaker 1: We've seen each other kind of socially in between, but
Speaker 1: it has been a long time since we've gathered behind
Speaker 1: the podcast, Mike, So what has been going on? I
Speaker 1: feel like that's a big question. What's been going on
Speaker 1: and bringing you joy? Last chatted?
Speaker 2: Ooh, you know what has been bringing me a lot
Speaker 2: of joy? Truly, the feeling of completion this book that
Speaker 2: I'm going to be talking about with you today. It
Speaker 2: had rattled in my mind for six years, took me
Speaker 2: about two years to do, and then when I finally
Speaker 2: turned in the manuscript and got the galley, it felt
Speaker 2: like all of this space came into my spirit and body.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like it was something that I needed
Speaker 2: to complete and share. And as soon as that happened,
Speaker 2: I feel like I've been given access to like new
Speaker 2: layers of my own creativity, new layers of thought. I
Speaker 2: have space to think about new things. It's been feeling
Speaker 2: really joyful. My body is kind of getting used to it,
Speaker 2: my mind is getting used to it. But that feels
Speaker 2: really exciting for me. I feel so much space inside
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: I love that. What a beautiful answer, you know. And
Speaker 1: I know, like the book process is a very long
Speaker 1: process regardless, right, Like it takes years before people see
Speaker 1: it on the sholws. But tell me about the timing
Speaker 1: of this, Like how had it been sitting with you
Speaker 1: for so long before it kind of finally was given birth?
Speaker 2: You know. I wrote my first book almost eight years ago,
Speaker 2: which was called Crystal Bliss, which was a beautiful opportunity
Speaker 2: and I was able to share, you know, my passion
Speaker 2: for crystals, my passion for meditation. But I had a
Speaker 2: lot of deeper stories to share, and that was always
Speaker 2: known to me that at some point I was going
Speaker 2: to share a lot deeper perspective and look and technique
Speaker 2: and healing process, things that I had been working with personally,
Speaker 2: things that I had amassed a lot of practice, and
Speaker 2: things that I had used with clients. And so I
Speaker 2: felt like God gave me the seed, the feeling, and
Speaker 2: it wasn't so much about getting it done right away.
Speaker 2: I had a few different iterations of this kind of
Speaker 2: come through for about six full years, but it was
Speaker 2: really about divine timing and so God kept telling me, watch, look, prepare,
Speaker 2: write down, start creating the space for this kind of
Speaker 2: creativity to tell these kinds of stories. But it was
Speaker 2: really about finding new ways to kind of romance my
Speaker 2: life a little bit in the process of doing that,
Speaker 2: like call my creativity forward to tell some harder stories
Speaker 2: in a way that felt really useful, felt really purposeful.
Speaker 2: And so that process was really interesting. I mean, oh
Speaker 2: my God, did I fight it, fight it? Did I
Speaker 2: fight the process? Did I stop and start so many times?
Speaker 2: So many times? And then it made sense, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think it was funny. One of my favorite
Speaker 2: teachers and healers who tends to work with a lot
Speaker 2: of creative something he said to me when I told
Speaker 2: him that, Okay, the contract is signed, now I know
Speaker 2: I got to deliver it. You know, we're going to
Speaker 2: get going. He told me something really beautiful that turned
Speaker 2: out to be very true for me. He said, you know,
Speaker 2: when you're writing something that really is kind of I
Speaker 2: call it like my debut rap album because all the
Speaker 2: great hip hop classics, it is everything that artists went
Speaker 2: through in their life up into the debut album. So
Speaker 2: every perspective, every life experience, it is like you know,
Speaker 2: this grand offering, and so he said, you know, when
Speaker 2: you're ready to give that grand offering, you're going to
Speaker 2: notice that some of your life is going to speed up.
Speaker 2: You're going to have resolution about certain things you're writing about.
Speaker 2: You're going to be given these kind of miraculous whispers
Speaker 2: and symbols and cues from God to help you complete
Speaker 2: the work. And I found that that really happened for me.
Speaker 2: You know, some of the things that I write about
Speaker 2: in the book, my past marriage, my relationship with my family,
Speaker 2: my son. You know, I started seeing such miraculous growth
Speaker 2: in all those areas as I put kind of the
Speaker 2: pen to the paper or my fingers to the keypad.
Speaker 2: And then by the time I finished the book, it
Speaker 2: was really like this volume of life and living that
Speaker 2: was just so complete in all the best ways, like
Speaker 2: every single loose string had been tied into a bow.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like immensely grateful for that. It ended
Speaker 2: up being such a therapeutic, to say the least, catalyzing
Speaker 2: process for me.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah. You know, Debbie, and you know, being
Speaker 1: a fan of your work and being you know, in
Speaker 1: connection with you for the past couple of years, like
Speaker 1: you definitely are someone who shares, right, Like, I don't
Speaker 1: feel like you are super secretive, Like you are a
Speaker 1: part of your work in the ways that you share.
Speaker 1: But this book was definitely different, right, Like, you definitely
Speaker 1: share more about like grief and laws in ways that
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I had seen you share in
Speaker 1: your platform, and I know that can be a risk,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it felt like that to you. I
Speaker 1: wonder if you can share, Like, how do you know
Speaker 1: you are in a heeled enough space to be able
Speaker 1: to share about something on the written page, Because there's
Speaker 1: like the feeling it, and then there's the writing it
Speaker 1: and then releasing it for other people to kind of
Speaker 1: take in, Right, So, how do you know when you
Speaker 1: are in a place to be able to write about
Speaker 1: you know, some of the things you wrote?
Speaker 2: God, I knew when I came on the show these
Speaker 2: questions would be questioned name, oh my God, and thank
Speaker 2: you so much for your words? My lord? Do you
Speaker 2: know the feeling is mutual? I think I have a
Speaker 2: few ways that I think I want to approach this question.
Speaker 2: I know we are in a day and age of
Speaker 2: like deep sharing and deep truth and as I was
Speaker 2: kind of walking through a lot of the stories that
Speaker 2: I share in this book, I was also in the
Speaker 2: midst of serving. You know, a lot of the things
Speaker 2: that were coming forward were happening like immediately when the
Speaker 2: pandemic started, and so that wasn't a place to share from.
Speaker 2: You know, like I have a lot of patience for
Speaker 2: the unfolding of life, and I feel like I am
Speaker 2: someone that believes in sharing the wisdom and not necessarily
Speaker 2: steeping in the pain and sharing the trauma of the moment.
Speaker 2: Now that is not for everybody, but as a teacher
Speaker 2: and as someone that helps facilitate and guide, I think
Speaker 2: that's really important. I needed to metabolize the experiences that
Speaker 2: were happening to me in my life. I needed to
Speaker 2: be in process with it, because you know, at first experience,
Speaker 2: at first glance, you kind of have to sift through
Speaker 2: the pain, sift through the reflection, and start to see
Speaker 2: where everything is falling. So I had to let myself
Speaker 2: be shattered in certain respects and just let it all
Speaker 2: kind of be in front of me before before I saw,
Speaker 2: you know, what is what is the rebuild? What is
Speaker 2: the learning? What is the work that is in front
Speaker 2: of me? I believe deeply that every single thing that
Speaker 2: happens to each and every one of us serves purpose.
Speaker 2: And by serve purpose, I mean literally serves a purpose
Speaker 2: and your life and in the world, but also serves
Speaker 2: and informs your life's purpose. And I felt like a
Speaker 2: lot of the experiences that I have through some dark
Speaker 2: teachers in my life, like loss and grief and betrayal,
Speaker 2: you know, those are things that are meant to be
Speaker 2: deeply thought about and understood. You know, I was in
Speaker 2: a lot of pain, and I had a lot of
Speaker 2: reverence for the pain that I was in, and so
Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to see it through. I
Speaker 2: needed to see myself be on the other side of it.
Speaker 2: I needed to see the wisdom in it. And then
Speaker 2: I needed to start sharing and teaching my learnings in
Speaker 2: real life and seeing how those things were affecting other people.
Speaker 2: And then I felt like it was ready to be
Speaker 2: shared in the book. A lot of this, I mean,
Speaker 2: just every story I tell in here has probably never
Speaker 2: been heard before, because I really thought I needed to
Speaker 2: give some of those experiences the respect that they deserved.
Speaker 2: And it didn't feel like doing that on an Instagram
Speaker 2: post or an Instagram story or even one singular podcast
Speaker 2: was really the place to do that. So I sat
Speaker 2: with my work and I sat with my learning, and
Speaker 2: I made it useful and I wrote about it. And
Speaker 2: my deepest intention is that it is useful and necessary
Speaker 2: and helpful to whoever happens to connect with it.
Speaker 1: And is there any part of you that has been
Speaker 1: worried about, like how these not seen before stories will
Speaker 1: be received or impact the work that you do as
Speaker 1: like a teacher and a healer and a facilitator.
Speaker 2: I wanted to say I worry about that. I will
Speaker 2: say that just in general, the feeling of being so
Speaker 2: vulnerable and open it brings up a lot of things,
Speaker 2: you know, I think naturally, I'm a very private person.
Speaker 2: Probably anyone that follows me knows that. Like, I'm definitely
Speaker 2: down to give glimpses. But I save my best parts
Speaker 2: for the people that know me and for the people
Speaker 2: that have time and presence in my life. And that's
Speaker 2: really important because I think, you know, especially in this
Speaker 2: day and age, with all the sharing and all the
Speaker 2: broadcasting of ourselves, we can really get burnt out and
Speaker 2: we can kind of contort ourselves to meet the perception
Speaker 2: of so many people. We don't know and that don't
Speaker 2: know us. So I save a lot of my best
Speaker 2: parts for me and those I'm close to. But you know,
Speaker 2: I did have this experience where as soon as the
Speaker 2: book was finished and I had the galley and it
Speaker 2: hit me and it was like, Oh God, all this
Speaker 2: is all this is going to be in the world.
Speaker 2: I just kind of built an altar for my book
Speaker 2: and I started praying to God about it, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I need to make peace with this. I
Speaker 2: need a big peace with the feeling of being seen
Speaker 2: in some of the harder moments, because you know, when
Speaker 2: you write a book, well, really, when you do anything, now,
Speaker 2: it exists for as long as it exists, and it's
Speaker 2: on public record, and everyone will have access to these
Speaker 2: kind of more intimate pieces and parts of you. So
Speaker 2: I didn't have fear. I know God wanted me to
Speaker 2: do this, so it felt like an honor to do,
Speaker 2: you know necessary. But I did spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time in prayer in these last six months waiting for
Speaker 2: this book to come out, just really being with myself
Speaker 2: and being with my truth and knowing that it's all okay,
Speaker 2: and every story that's told. I'm completely on the other
Speaker 2: side of you know, for many years, for many years,
Speaker 2: I've been on the other side of So I have
Speaker 2: a lot of confidence in that and a lot of
Speaker 2: pride in what my life looks like.
Speaker 1: So you know, you kind of come out the gate
Speaker 1: swinging in this book, Daddy, Like one of the first
Speaker 1: chapters is you have permission to shatter, basically like to
Speaker 1: complete we fall apart, and as much value as I
Speaker 1: think we both recognize, I think for our community, for
Speaker 1: the therapy for black girls, community minity, people will hear
Speaker 1: that and be like, absolutely not, I don't have time, right, Like,
Speaker 1: we are doing our best to just hold it together,
Speaker 1: and so talk to me about like the permission to
Speaker 1: shatter and the value that's on the other side.
Speaker 2: This is something I've thought about so much because I think,
Speaker 2: especially within our community, we've just had to be resilient
Speaker 2: for centuries, right, So it's like some of our resilience
Speaker 2: and are forging through and our process and our positivity, right,
Speaker 2: our ability to not be beaten is what is our
Speaker 2: strongest pull in most moments, and it's incredibly beautiful. I'm
Speaker 2: so grateful, so grateful for the generations of resilience that
Speaker 2: have been burrowed deeply into my cells. And at the
Speaker 2: same thought and point of that, you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of us alive right now. We're the first generation that's
Speaker 2: ever even had a chance to feel. So there are
Speaker 2: a lot of things that we're doing for ourselves, and
Speaker 2: we're doing for our children, We are doing for our
Speaker 2: parents that has just absolutely never been done before. But
Speaker 2: it's going to change the flow of how we're able
Speaker 2: to be ourselves forever. And so, you know, I think
Speaker 2: being broken gets a bad rap. It's not about being
Speaker 2: broken forever. It's not about putting this label on yourself
Speaker 2: that has to be your identity. I am broken, but
Speaker 2: a lot of us go through things that absolutely break us.
Speaker 2: A lot of us go through things that hurt in
Speaker 2: ways most people couldn't imagine. And so I had spent
Speaker 2: so much of my life someone who had experienced various traumas,
Speaker 2: various complex situations since birth. I'm someone that was just
Speaker 2: always piecing myself back together and going and going fast
Speaker 2: and doing well. And I'm just like you know, covered
Speaker 2: in a little bit of scar tissue, but still luminous
Speaker 2: in doing what I'm supposed to do. But that also
Speaker 2: meant that I wasn't really in a space to feel
Speaker 2: all the things that God needed me to know. And
Speaker 2: I find that when we don't allow ourselves to feel
Speaker 2: the fullness of our emotions, whatever that is, we're also
Speaker 2: cutting off kind of our divine channel to God because
Speaker 2: we're not listening, we're not choosing to kind of interact
Speaker 2: with what's present. And so I didn't want to feel
Speaker 2: cut off, you know, I didn't want to feel muted emotionally.
Speaker 2: I know what that feels like to kind of forge
Speaker 2: through and so all of your senses are a little
Speaker 2: bit dulled. So when some of the bigger things that
Speaker 2: happened to me in recent years happened, I felt like,
Speaker 2: what am I holding it all together for? And what
Speaker 2: could I be if I don't right? Like? What could
Speaker 2: I be if I don't Throughout so much of my life,
Speaker 2: I had looked at myself safe, for instance, like a
Speaker 2: vase that somehow kept either falling over or getting thrown
Speaker 2: against the wall. And then I'm like kinsugi, like using
Speaker 2: this goal to piece myself back together, and now I'm
Speaker 2: a vase again with all these golden cracks. But then
Speaker 2: some things happened and I was just like, this has
Speaker 2: to stay on the floor. I don't want to be
Speaker 2: contained anymore. I don't want to be a vessel again.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a vase that holds things.
Speaker 2: I just want to be free. And I think that
Speaker 2: is some of the beauty of what letting yourself break
Speaker 2: and then choosing what you'll become after that really provides us.
Speaker 2: It's true freedom.
Speaker 1: Mhm. And how do we because I think that there's
Speaker 1: a level of safety that has to be there before.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking, I think this is kind of
Speaker 1: where our worlds collide. Like I'm thinking about this as
Speaker 1: a therapist, Like you know, what are we putting down
Speaker 1: so that there's like a blanket almost for these pieces
Speaker 1: to fall apart?
Speaker 2: Right? Like?
Speaker 1: What is the safety? And you kind of walk through
Speaker 1: that kind of roadmap for what healing looks like. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit of about recognizing like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's time for things to shadow, but maybe the work
Speaker 1: that needs to be done before you.
Speaker 2: Aways, so we are not just stopping at the brokenness, right,
Speaker 2: Like part of becoming is finding the help you need
Speaker 2: and finding the help you deserve. And for many of
Speaker 2: us that get to that point of having such a
Speaker 2: big break. It means that usually throughout our entire lives
Speaker 2: there was no support, and so you were used to
Speaker 2: kind of holding it together and being just with yourself.
Speaker 2: But when you are in the pursuit of freedom, when
Speaker 2: you are in the pursuit of becoming more, I think
Speaker 2: it is absolutely imperative to not solely rely on your
Speaker 2: own guidance and counsel, but to seek and get help,
Speaker 2: and to be really adaptable and fluid in the kind
Speaker 2: of help you seek. Right. So, I'm someone that had
Speaker 2: been going to therapy for many, many, many, many many years,
Speaker 2: but I found in this moment that actually it wasn't
Speaker 2: cognitive therapy that was most helpful for me, And so
Speaker 2: I found resources to say, well, I know that this
Speaker 2: particular modality may not be a fit for me anymore,
Speaker 2: but what could be? And so I found myself going
Speaker 2: into specifically somatic therapy and then finding different somatic processes
Speaker 2: to work with myself at home. I found myself deeply
Speaker 2: leaning into practices that I had known for many many
Speaker 2: years but maybe hadn't been as present with as I
Speaker 2: could be. I found myself becoming really devoted to the
Speaker 2: way that I cared for myself when you're in your
Speaker 2: most broken states. I think it is so important to
Speaker 2: make your life as beautiful as you possibly can. For
Speaker 2: all of us, based on what our lives look like
Speaker 2: at the time, be it socioeconomic status, be it flexibility,
Speaker 2: be it freedom, that's going to be a little bit
Speaker 2: different for each of us. In this book, I have
Speaker 2: so many different practices and protocols and just kind of
Speaker 2: deeper understandings of it's available to people. But for each
Speaker 2: of us, that's a unique recipe we have to find
Speaker 2: for ourselves. But I believe deeply in a holistic approach.
Speaker 2: Some of the things I did, of course, was be
Speaker 2: in therapy, work my own process, meditate every day. I
Speaker 2: made a lot of time to rest. I think what
Speaker 2: I recognized was I had been in fight or flight
Speaker 2: and freeze my whole entire life. So I didn't even
Speaker 2: know who I was or what I felt like. If
Speaker 2: I wasn't putting out fires for other people or myself,
Speaker 2: if I wasn't kind of carrying the emotional labor and
Speaker 2: weight from everyone around me all the time, and so
Speaker 2: part of my ability to figure out what is the
Speaker 2: truth of who I am and how I feel really
Speaker 2: rested in dedicating two entire years, two entire full years
Speaker 2: to resetting my nervous system. That is not something that
Speaker 2: can happen in a weekend. It's something you can taste,
Speaker 2: it's something you can begin to really receive from deep
Speaker 2: relief from right away. But it also takes time for
Speaker 2: your body to heal and your body to create some
Speaker 2: new pathways for your brain to heal. And so I
Speaker 2: leaned into a lot of those practices, and it became about,
Speaker 2: you know, being able to lean on deeply supportive community,
Speaker 2: my friends, my family, healers, other people in my space, therapists,
Speaker 2: and it was about being incredibly devoted to my own
Speaker 2: self and my own soul and my own body like
Speaker 2: I never have before in my life. I cut out everything,
Speaker 2: no TV, no movies, really, no music except for a
Speaker 2: solelection playlist shout out to Jokay for over two years,
Speaker 2: and it was about reparenting myself, healing the parts of
Speaker 2: me that said yes to chaos even though I didn't
Speaker 2: realize it. It became about forgiving myself for some of
Speaker 2: the positions I put myself into, and it became about
Speaker 2: learning how to be the kind of mother I've always
Speaker 2: dreamed of. Being with my son and being completely focused
Speaker 2: on that part of my life more than anything else.
Speaker 1: So, Debbie, I would love to hear your thoughts on
Speaker 1: this because I hear you talking about like spending so
Speaker 1: much of your life in like fight or flight and freeze,
Speaker 1: and I think many of us are operating in that
Speaker 1: place right and it feels like we have to kind
Speaker 1: of crash or there is some experience of crashing before
Speaker 1: we recognize, you know what, this is not serving me,
Speaker 1: Like it feels like there needs to be typically some
Speaker 1: big thing for us to then say, I'm going to
Speaker 1: make this change, like I'm going to look at how
Speaker 1: I interact with the world. I want to look at
Speaker 1: how I change things. Do you feel like there has
Speaker 1: to be some big thing or has that been your
Speaker 1: experience and like the clients you've worked with, or could
Speaker 1: it be that somebody just says, hey, I want to
Speaker 1: examine this for myself even before like a big thing happens.
Speaker 2: I absolutely think that both paths can happen. I think
Speaker 2: it really depends on the level of awareness and kind
Speaker 2: of the fine tuning of one's own intuition. I think
Speaker 2: for a long time because some of those parts of
Speaker 2: me were really disjointed. I had to or continue to
Speaker 2: find myself, specifically learning through pain and challenge. Something that
Speaker 2: I've said for a long time is, you know, listen
Speaker 2: to the whispers, because you do have a choice. Listen
Speaker 2: to the whispers. They're always there. God always comes to
Speaker 2: us as this kind of blissful little kiss on the
Speaker 2: cheek or whisper, And whether or not we listen depends
Speaker 2: on incrementally how much more intense our experiences get that
Speaker 2: want our attention. So I didn't listen to a lot
Speaker 2: of whispers for various things in my life, and I
Speaker 2: heard them clearly, and I kept telling myself, I can
Speaker 2: control this, I can find a way around this. I
Speaker 2: can find a way for that not to be the case.
Speaker 2: And so eventually God caught my fade. I got a
Speaker 2: punch in the face, I got knocked down on the floor.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, as people, we learned pain
Speaker 2: until we don't. My shattering allowed me to really understand
Speaker 2: that I can learn with ease, I can learn with grace.
Speaker 2: I can learn through really observation and the twinkle of
Speaker 2: an eye, the whisper, the symbols, and that now very
Speaker 2: much that's how I make new choices and pivot in
Speaker 2: my life. That's how I know how to kind of
Speaker 2: walk away from something before I even walk into it.
Speaker 2: And so I think at this point in my life,
Speaker 2: I can absolutely learn through joyous experiences. I learn so
Speaker 2: much through presence and observation of others or just reflection
Speaker 2: on my own self and my own awareness with God's grace.
Speaker 2: But I think before you get to that place, a
Speaker 2: lot of us have to be disarmed. And if we
Speaker 2: don't disarm ourselves when we're told to, our ability to
Speaker 2: do it through gentleness does kind of change. But we
Speaker 2: can get back to that. There's this quote that I love.
Speaker 2: It's this very old, kind of beautiful little anecdote that said,
Speaker 2: the snake that cannot shed must perish. So if we
Speaker 2: don't learn to shed our skin as we're being called
Speaker 2: to and told to every time, you may have to
Speaker 2: die for it, right, not literally, I hope, but figuratively.
Speaker 2: You may have to have some kind of internal death
Speaker 2: or dark knight of the soul. But if if you
Speaker 2: really listen, you can just let it be a shed.
Speaker 2: You can let it be this kind of gentle unraveling
Speaker 2: and unfolding, an opportunity for something new and different.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you've used
Speaker 1: this word a couple of times already today, and I
Speaker 1: was particularly struck by it in reading the book Devotion,
Speaker 1: because I don't feel like that's a word I've seen
Speaker 1: used in like healing texts in you know, like this World,
Speaker 1: and so I want to hear more about this idea
Speaker 1: of devotion and like the relationship, it has to a
Speaker 1: greater sense of healing.
Speaker 2: I think when we approached the conversation of self care,
Speaker 2: and as someone that has been really kind of teaching
Speaker 2: self care, specifically in a holistic lens for the last decade,
Speaker 2: it was one of the hardest things that I ever
Speaker 2: had to do for myself but also had to teach.
Speaker 2: Whenever I'd walk in rooms and talk about self care,
Speaker 2: people felt like it was so silly or small that
Speaker 2: it couldn't possibly give you the healing that you need,
Speaker 2: or that it was selfish, or if you've had complex
Speaker 2: lived experiences, it could be deeply triggering and uncomfortable to
Speaker 2: start to meet your own needs or be present with
Speaker 2: yourself and your body. I started to switch the lens
Speaker 2: to really being about a path of devotion devoting myself
Speaker 2: to deepening my connection with God and devoting myself to
Speaker 2: myself learning what my needs are. And I think when
Speaker 2: we look at it as being in devotion of it
Speaker 2: changes the reverence that we have for ourselves in our lives,
Speaker 2: and it really allows us to approach it in a
Speaker 2: way that can be very consistent and also very beautiful.
Speaker 2: Right instead of just like, oh, I've got to, you know,
Speaker 2: band aid this up, I've got to band aid that up,
Speaker 2: I've got to fix that pothole, and just to stay
Speaker 2: above ground, I'm looking at it as a pleasure. I'm
Speaker 2: looking at it as a privilege to care for my heart,
Speaker 2: to care for my one life that I'm getting, to
Speaker 2: care for, my purpose, to care for the things that
Speaker 2: God has entrusted me with, and you know, really just
Speaker 2: to care for this life that I have been given.
Speaker 2: And I think when we're able to look at ourselves
Speaker 2: as being worthy of our own devotion, it changes the
Speaker 2: way that we're able to show up in some of
Speaker 2: our harder experiences, and it changes the way that we're
Speaker 2: able to be ourselves in the world and with other people.
Speaker 1: So in the book you talk about and you just
Speaker 1: mentioned it too, like this need for control that many
Speaker 1: of us have, that it may not even be like
Speaker 1: obvious on the outside, and that that is the thing
Speaker 1: you've often to wrestle with most good clients. Can you
Speaker 1: say a little bit about how we may be masking
Speaker 1: this need for control in our lives and how it
Speaker 1: shows up in your work?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I think one of the biggest ways
Speaker 2: so many of us mask what is truly just a
Speaker 2: desire to control is through self righteousness. It's through service,
Speaker 2: It's through a lot of good intentions, right, And I
Speaker 2: think that's what makes it tricky for us to find,
Speaker 2: especially for those of us that are empathetic, that are
Speaker 2: highly sensitive, that are intuitive, that are people that are
Speaker 2: deep feelers and really caring. It is so easy to
Speaker 2: get high on your own supply when you're someone that
Speaker 2: people come to for things, you know, But it's also
Speaker 2: incredibly isolating, and so you know, I think when we
Speaker 2: are trying too hard to control our own experience, to
Speaker 2: find solutions just from our own minds for our experience,
Speaker 2: or to control the feelings that other people are having
Speaker 2: around us, we really miss the mark, you know. I
Speaker 2: think control is this very clever, sophisticated way of avoiding
Speaker 2: what it is to feel, what it is to trust,
Speaker 2: what it is to truly have faith. You Know, something
Speaker 2: that I find really interesting is a lot of people
Speaker 2: I know that have deep faith, that really have deep
Speaker 2: connections with God, struggle with control, completely struggle with it.
Speaker 2: And I always say, but where's the room for God?
Speaker 2: If you're making all the decisions. Where's the room for God?
Speaker 2: If you are by yourself with only your brain trying
Speaker 2: to come up with every solution before you just sit
Speaker 2: and feel and look at what's in front of you.
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important for people to just
Speaker 2: gently look at the ways that they avoid their own
Speaker 2: emotion and the ways that they avoid allowing other people
Speaker 2: to have emotions. So what that looks like sometimes is
Speaker 2: like if someone comes to you and you know, either
Speaker 2: they tell you they need help or you are projecting
Speaker 2: on them that they need help, and you're now rushing
Speaker 2: into action to come up with all these solutions or
Speaker 2: fix it or make it more comfortable. I'd really question, like,
Speaker 2: what is it that you're scared of, and what is
Speaker 2: it that you're avoiding, and what is hard about feeling
Speaker 2: the pain and other people and the pain in yourself?
Speaker 2: And just sit with it, because it won't go away
Speaker 2: until you do.
Speaker 1: So you give us an outline in the book of
Speaker 1: these practices that and you describe them as practices. Right.
Speaker 1: I think that we, you know, ultimately would be doing
Speaker 1: daily to kind of give ourselves the best chance at healing. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: this is what healing actually looks like in practice. But
Speaker 1: meditation is the one that you talk about being the
Speaker 1: most difficult, even though in my mind it feels like, oh,
Speaker 1: like this feels like not an easy process, but it
Speaker 1: feels easy to access in a lot of ways. So
Speaker 1: can you talk about like what meditation is and why
Speaker 1: it is often so difficult for people?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, Oh, meditation has been one of
Speaker 2: the single greatest gifts of my entire life, and it's
Speaker 2: also been one of my most challenging teachers to sit with.
Speaker 2: So meditation, I think it in the most simplistic way
Speaker 2: that we see and know it. It's like sitting down,
Speaker 2: being still and being silent. And that sounds easy enough,
Speaker 2: I think till each of us try to do it,
Speaker 2: because what happens when you get still everything comes to
Speaker 2: the surface. Most of us spend so much of our
Speaker 2: lives trying to move fast to bypass what we're feeling,
Speaker 2: or bypass some of the harder realities of life, or
Speaker 2: even past memories and ruminating thoughts. We just go, go, go, go, go, do,
Speaker 2: do do. When you meditate, we're saying, hey, you are
Speaker 2: worthy and enough without doing anything, and that can be
Speaker 2: incredibly confronting if you have spent your whole life doing
Speaker 2: the opposite. So the thing about meditation, which I think
Speaker 2: is very similar to joy and anything else we're doing
Speaker 2: with ourselves for the first time, is it is a practice.
Speaker 2: It is about being present without judgment, and it's about
Speaker 2: really just letting yourself look at your own discomfort. The
Speaker 2: few first times that you sit down to meditate, it
Speaker 2: may annoy you, depending on what's happened in your life.
Speaker 2: It may terrify you, depending on what's happening in your life.
Speaker 2: When you were still, when you were quiet, things are
Speaker 2: going to come up to the surface. But I think
Speaker 2: the beauty of a meditation practice is they come up
Speaker 2: to the surface so you can begin to observe them
Speaker 2: and relate to them differently, and relate them so you
Speaker 2: can actually find the space of what is my authentic
Speaker 2: voice and what is my ability to just be present
Speaker 2: and see what is in front of me and happening.
Speaker 2: A lot of us kind of miss the observation phase
Speaker 2: because we're going straight into action. But if we don't
Speaker 2: sit and really behold what's in front of us, absolutely
Speaker 2: nothing changes inside of us or outside of us, even
Speaker 2: if we feel like it does, even if we feel
Speaker 2: like we are accomplishing or gaining or doing. At some point,
Speaker 2: we're all going to be forced to sit and be
Speaker 2: still and reckon with ourselves and reckon with our choices.
Speaker 2: When you kind of proactively approach certain practices, you give
Speaker 2: the opportunity to yourself to not always have to do
Speaker 2: that through a lot of challenges and a lot of
Speaker 2: practices in the book that I share, especially meditation, it's
Speaker 2: about bringing yourself into a quiet power, bringing yourself into
Speaker 2: a new access point of who and what you are,
Speaker 2: and also connecting your brain and your heart. You know,
Speaker 2: one of the hardest things I think about meditating and
Speaker 2: I think about doing various practices, is so many of
Speaker 2: us are intellectualizers. And that's exactly why you wrote this book.
Speaker 2: You cannot think your way out of some of your deeper,
Speaker 2: harder experiences and truths you can only feel your way
Speaker 2: out of them, and through meditation and through doing various
Speaker 2: practices you build your capacity to do that with.
Speaker 1: Ease mm hmm and in my mind, and you have
Speaker 1: outlined this in the book as well, like meditation often
Speaker 1: is a nice compliment to journaling, which you also talk about.
Speaker 1: So can you talk about the purpose of journaling as
Speaker 1: a part of healing as will?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, journaling is where you really give yourself the
Speaker 2: chance I think, to release you know, and journaling can
Speaker 2: be just so bespoken, unique to each of us and
Speaker 2: how each of our brains work. So for some people,
Speaker 2: journaling through voice notes feels really good, and I always
Speaker 2: recommend for some people that like to journal in that way,
Speaker 2: including myself, sometimes whenever you get a chance, try to
Speaker 2: just get those voice notes somewhere and transcribe them. I
Speaker 2: prefer kind of keeping our journals so we can look
Speaker 2: back at who we are and continue to see how
Speaker 2: we grow. Some people like to burn the paper as
Speaker 2: soon as it's done. See what feels best for you.
Speaker 2: But you know, journaling either through voice notodes, through prompts,
Speaker 2: through questions and guidance that you're gaining from other sources
Speaker 2: or through your own guidance, but it gives you a
Speaker 2: place to be in deep inquiry with yourself in a
Speaker 2: safe way. So I think it's journaling is one of
Speaker 2: the greatest ways to track your growth. It's one of
Speaker 2: the greatest ways to really begin to see how you
Speaker 2: uniquely think about things and feel about things. It's a
Speaker 2: way to give space for anger, because we deserve to
Speaker 2: feel that too if we do. It's a space to
Speaker 2: really give over to sadness when you feel it, give
Speaker 2: over to personal accomplishment and happiness. But I believe we
Speaker 2: should be documenting our lives like at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, no matter what you do, no matter who
Speaker 2: you love, no matter what you create, life is really
Speaker 2: about you and God. That is the fundamental relationship while
Speaker 2: you're here. It is about your unique individual human experience first,
Speaker 2: which then allows us to come into community. And I
Speaker 2: think journaling really helps you get more clear on what
Speaker 2: your human experience is and what the sum of your
Speaker 2: experiences have created in your life.
Speaker 1: So one of the questions that you offer, both I
Speaker 1: think as a journal problem but also for a lot
Speaker 1: of the larger exercises that you're asking in the book
Speaker 1: is who am I call to be right now? And
Speaker 1: I think when I think about that question, especially in
Speaker 1: the backdrop of everything happening in the world, I feel
Speaker 1: like my answer is like lid something around, like a
Speaker 1: being of service to other people. But and see, I'm
Speaker 1: probably doing what you are encouraging us not to do
Speaker 1: in the book. I'm judging my answer, like should the
Speaker 1: answer be like something for somebody else or should the
Speaker 1: answer be something like inherently for me. So I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you can give suggestions around, like how do we
Speaker 1: answer that question? And I'm guessing the answer to that
Speaker 1: question might be different at different points in our lives.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think, honestly, the answer to the question
Speaker 2: it's kind of both. When we ask ourselves that question,
Speaker 2: you know, being alive, we are having two distinct experiences
Speaker 2: at the same time. We are having our internal experience,
Speaker 2: the part that typically only we know about, and we're
Speaker 2: having our external experience what we are doing in the world,
Speaker 2: how we are in relationship with others, and what their
Speaker 2: perception of us is. So that is happening at all
Speaker 2: the time, and so I think it's fair to ask
Speaker 2: yourself that question in both of those ways. Who am
Speaker 2: I being called to become? Inside? First? And then who
Speaker 2: am I being called to become in the greater world?
Speaker 2: In service, because we're all alive to serve and any
Speaker 2: of the work that we are blessed or privileged to
Speaker 2: do on ourselves. Because sometimes it is very true that
Speaker 2: it can feel absolutely impossible to do this depending on
Speaker 2: your circumstance. But if you do have the privilege and
Speaker 2: the fortitude to do some of this personal work on yourself,
Speaker 2: it's imperative that you then turn that into service. It's
Speaker 2: why we're here. So I think when we're in that
Speaker 2: space of asking ourselves, who am I being called to become?
Speaker 2: Right now? It is an ever evolving answer that we
Speaker 2: should always be in flow with. We should always be
Speaker 2: asking that question when we find ourselves kind of in
Speaker 2: new chapters of who we are, new moments. We are
Speaker 2: constantly shedding, and with every shed we get the chance
Speaker 2: to become more, to become something else, And I feel
Speaker 2: to become something more beautiful, more powerful, more influential to
Speaker 2: whatever our person an all ecosystem is.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you know, Debbie,
Speaker 1: I am always, well, not always, but often thinking about
Speaker 1: like social media and like technology and how it impacts
Speaker 1: like healing, and like what this work looks like now
Speaker 1: versus like twenty years ago. And so you recently posted
Speaker 1: on Threads I believe I believe it was Threads that
Speaker 1: you feel like you are a couple of years away
Speaker 1: from like completely not even being online, right, like it
Speaker 1: kind of is there at the store front, but not
Speaker 1: really like really engaging. And I also was struck by
Speaker 1: in the book, like how many times you're talking about
Speaker 1: our online behavior in terms of like unfollowing people or
Speaker 1: unfollowing people, and like how that's a part of our
Speaker 1: lexicon that was not there twenty years ago. And so
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like what role do you see social media
Speaker 1: and technology kind of playing and healing and how we
Speaker 1: have to be careful about the role that it's playing
Speaker 1: in our lives.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what a question. What a question, And
Speaker 2: what a time to be alive, because I just want
Speaker 2: to like kind of ground in the fact that, like
Speaker 2: we are really doing things no human being has ever
Speaker 2: done before, and we are living lifestyles that have absolutely
Speaker 2: never existed on this planet before, and there is really
Speaker 2: something to be said for that, you know, like we
Speaker 2: really kind of have to look at that and give
Speaker 2: ourselves a lot of grace. There's a reason why we're
Speaker 2: stressed out and why we do feel like we don't
Speaker 2: really know what we're doing, because we are doing a
Speaker 2: lot of things that our bodies and brains just were
Speaker 2: not evolutionarily designed for. Yet are we are that missing link?
Speaker 2: We are the cavemen of this time? But I think
Speaker 2: you know, first of all, yeah, my desire is to
Speaker 2: really be off social I love serving, I love being
Speaker 2: with people, but I am an in person person. God
Speaker 2: designed me really for one on one or God designed
Speaker 2: me to share energy with human beings I am physically with,
Speaker 2: and that is always my priority. I always give more
Speaker 2: to my real life than my digital life ninety percent
Speaker 2: of the time. So I have a profound longing to
Speaker 2: not be perceived. I have a profound longing to not
Speaker 2: be on social media, to not have to tweet, to
Speaker 2: not have to thread, to not have to be on
Speaker 2: Instagram other than for absolute pleasure. And I think that
Speaker 2: part has been weird for a lot of us because
Speaker 2: we are trying to be so many things online and
Speaker 2: sometimes it really isn't possible or easy to be your
Speaker 2: truest self, especially if you're a lover. I think the
Speaker 2: Internet was really hard for me over the last fifteen
Speaker 2: years because I am a lover to the bone, I
Speaker 2: am an impath to the bone, and I kind of
Speaker 2: historically observed patterns and shifts, and so we have made
Speaker 2: huge shifts into being so much more positive to each
Speaker 2: other in the last couple of years, I think since
Speaker 2: the pandemic. But if it was five years ago, my god,
Speaker 2: everyone was ripping each other to shreds. Let's not forget
Speaker 2: the read each other culture that was so prevalent. Just
Speaker 2: there was so much tearing down, There was so much negativity.
Speaker 2: Anything anyone said was just met by people on all
Speaker 2: corners of the world with all kind of bizarre projections
Speaker 2: and things. And I think that's the thing that I
Speaker 2: don't love, you know, when that happens online. And I
Speaker 2: also recognize I don't have to take it. I think
Speaker 2: we have this kind of false belief that you have
Speaker 2: to take in what anybody from anywhere says to you,
Speaker 2: and it's just not true. They don't know who you are, period.
Speaker 2: You know, a stranger telling you something online. It is
Speaker 2: such a minuscule view, even if it is praise. You know,
Speaker 2: we can never take neither praise nor criticism too deeply,
Speaker 2: So I choose to not really engage with either. I
Speaker 2: choose to just listen to what I'm supposed to do,
Speaker 2: try to show up with my work and with the
Speaker 2: people that you know, I'm able to be in front of.
Speaker 2: But I think we're an interesting time where the internet
Speaker 2: has given us so much access to community and to
Speaker 2: the ability to be seen, be heard, be in some
Speaker 2: form of relationship with others. But I think everyone should
Speaker 2: watch closely that they are not using that to bypass
Speaker 2: having real connection in real life. If you're someone who
Speaker 2: has been maybe a little harder to do that in
Speaker 2: real life. It is very easy to find sanctuary in
Speaker 2: an online world and mistakenly think that that's enough, But
Speaker 2: it's not the same thing as true relationship, as true connection,
Speaker 2: as being present for your human, earthly experience. I think
Speaker 2: it's really important that we don't turn our lives into
Speaker 2: a game of sims without realizing it, and look up
Speaker 2: and say, you know, what am I? What is my life?
Speaker 2: What is my real legacy? What impact have I actually had?
Speaker 2: And where have I been quite honestly wasting time or
Speaker 2: wasting resources. I think the last few years there's just
Speaker 2: been this kind of like, yes, cis culture of everybody
Speaker 2: liking and leaving comments, but not building relationship in real life.
Speaker 2: Real relationship with another human being requires a lot more
Speaker 2: than likes and praise and quick little messages on social
Speaker 2: media or texts. It requires vulnerability. It requires pros and
Speaker 2: cons and effort and getting it wrong sometimes, something that
Speaker 2: I love with all my real life friends. It's like,
Speaker 2: I'll be the first to say, please, don't pedestal me.
Speaker 2: I am gonna get a lot of this wrong. I
Speaker 2: have to have this space. I tell this to people,
Speaker 2: to people I'm friends with, I have to have the
Speaker 2: space to disappoint you. I have to be allowed to
Speaker 2: disappoint you sometimes. And I think we miss that very
Speaker 2: necessary building and stretching and growing when we are only
Speaker 2: focused kind of on online networking or keeping up with
Speaker 2: the likes and the posts and the responses and the
Speaker 2: dms on social media.
Speaker 1: And that is definitely a word there. Debbie, thank you so.
Speaker 1: I love that you kind of round out the book
Speaker 1: by talking about the importance of reclaiming joy, and I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could offer us some ideas around like,
Speaker 1: how we dismantle this idea that joy is something that
Speaker 1: needs to be earned.
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, my anecdote for that, because I think
Speaker 2: I was very much that person where I didn't realize
Speaker 2: it until I actually felt the real thing inside of
Speaker 2: my body. But we can get really addictive to perform
Speaker 2: of joy, which is some of you know, especially if
Speaker 2: you're someone that does kind of have great things happening,
Speaker 2: and so you're making announcements or you're giving speeches, or
Speaker 2: you have beautiful posts, or you have people that are
Speaker 2: cheering for you. You know, I always ask when those
Speaker 2: things happen, do you feel it inside to the same
Speaker 2: degree that you are pushing it externally. That's a big
Speaker 2: important thing to look at because a lot of times
Speaker 2: we can, without even our own permission or knowing, get
Speaker 2: stuck into a cycle of performative joy, which is acting happy,
Speaker 2: acting excited, having the raw raw yelling, celebrating, you know,
Speaker 2: all the exclamation points, all the parties. But how many
Speaker 2: of us have those experiences and inside still feel like
Speaker 2: it's not enough, And then wonder why, and wonder what's
Speaker 2: wrong with us? Why don't I feel as happy as
Speaker 2: I should? Why don't I feel as happy as people
Speaker 2: think I should. And so when you start looking at that,
Speaker 2: it kind of opens up a new world for us.
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that I think it's
Speaker 2: important to know is on that journey to joy, it's
Speaker 2: going to take practice. You're going to have to stretch
Speaker 2: your capacity to feel good things and to feel safe
Speaker 2: about it. If you've had, you know, a harder time
Speaker 2: in life maybe than others, or more challenges than others,
Speaker 2: there is going to be a fear that if I
Speaker 2: give myself over to this joy, will the other shoe drop?
Speaker 2: Will I be blindsided by something bad happening? The truth
Speaker 2: is maybe right, The truth is most likely another shoe
Speaker 2: will drop at some point, because that's what it is
Speaker 2: to be alive, that's the human experience. Both are always
Speaker 2: going to be happening. Grief and joy, challenge and progress
Speaker 2: are always always present and a part of what this
Speaker 2: human experience is. And I think when we just allow
Speaker 2: ourselves to kind of accept that guaranteed truth, we can
Speaker 2: relax into joy because we're grateful that it's come, and
Speaker 2: we're grateful it's here while it's here for however long
Speaker 2: it's here, and that joy and that feeling, and that
Speaker 2: allowance creates the fuel for us to be able to
Speaker 2: survive and move through absolutely everything else that may greet
Speaker 2: us on the path. And so my road to that
Speaker 2: was really through kind of constructing what I came to
Speaker 2: understand and call tiny joys. I am not searching for
Speaker 2: happiness in my life. I'm searching always. I am embodying
Speaker 2: enoughness to me, the journey isn't about happiness. It's about
Speaker 2: everything feels like enough. I don't feel lack, I don't
Speaker 2: feel like I need a rush to the next thing.
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I am putting up walls against
Speaker 2: the good things. I feel like everything around me is enough,
Speaker 2: all my needs are met. And my way to that feeling,
Speaker 2: which I'm so grateful for and love, was through tiny joys.
Speaker 2: It was through kind of seducing myself a little bit
Speaker 2: romanticizing myself, learning how to turn myself on and bring
Speaker 2: myself a smile with absolutely nothing, you know, not with
Speaker 2: another person, not with something tangible or in front of
Speaker 2: me or an opportunity. It was going outside and taking
Speaker 2: deep breaths and feeling the beautiful glow of sunshine hitting
Speaker 2: my face, closing my eyes and seeing the glow of orange,
Speaker 2: or feeling the warmth in the center of my forehead
Speaker 2: or on my neck or chest, and just saying, my God,
Speaker 2: that beauty makes it all make sense, you know, being
Speaker 2: able to be present in nature, gardening really activated that
Speaker 2: in me, or sometimes just lighting an incense, buying myself flowers,
Speaker 2: you know, creating joy for yourself. It's not about the
Speaker 2: big announcements or the performances. It's about how do I
Speaker 2: keep that little oven that's inside of me burning At
Speaker 2: old times. It is not always going to be a raging,
Speaker 2: crackling fire. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's just going to
Speaker 2: be that barely lit candle flame that I'm trying to
Speaker 2: keep on. But it's about feeding that personal fire with
Speaker 2: whatever makes you smile. The things that make me smile,
Speaker 2: our beauty, our sunshine, are drawing sometimes with my sun,
Speaker 2: creating a flower arrangement, rearranging things in my home, you know,
Speaker 2: closing my eyes and listening to a great mix, dancing
Speaker 2: and dancing and dancing around my house, opening up all
Speaker 2: the windows in my house. And that always feels like
Speaker 2: not only does it feel like enough, it feels like
Speaker 2: such a privilege. It feels like such a privilege to
Speaker 2: feel the things so deeply.
Speaker 1: So, DEBI, how are you hoping that people engage with
Speaker 1: in What do you hope they get from living in wisdom?
Speaker 2: I hope from living in wisdom, you know, you'll really
Speaker 2: get permission to incorporate and integrate all the aspects of
Speaker 2: what your unique human experience has been, if it's been
Speaker 2: one that has had some complex trauma, you know, which,
Speaker 2: as everyone knows listening to this show and your expertise,
Speaker 2: it's not just maybe one big thing that happened to
Speaker 2: you for some of us, for a lot of us,
Speaker 2: it is a lot of constant things that have happened
Speaker 2: to us. And so I think my book is really
Speaker 2: dedicated to people who have had experiences like that. I
Speaker 2: think this book is for people that have had a
Speaker 2: lot of those kinds of challenges but also find themselves
Speaker 2: wanting to keep their hearts wide open, wanting to find
Speaker 2: a way to serve, wanting to find a way to
Speaker 2: make all of these experiences useful, for those that have
Speaker 2: been on a path maybe of being a wounded healer,
Speaker 2: or want to understand themselves more. I really wrote this
Speaker 2: book and the way I kind of structured it was
Speaker 2: for people that you know, maybe a lot like I
Speaker 2: was over intellectualizers. You have a lot of knowledge. You've
Speaker 2: read the books right like you may have been in therapy.
Speaker 2: You may have read other self help books. You may
Speaker 2: have deep knowing. You know where the pain lies, you
Speaker 2: know what to call it. You're clear on all what
Speaker 2: the attachment, you know all the different attachment systems are.
Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, your life still doesn't feel like
Speaker 2: it's changing. You're not necessarily seeing the truth and the
Speaker 2: result of all this work that you've been bringing into
Speaker 2: your brain, yet in the life that you're living. This
Speaker 2: book is about integrating all of that and bringing it
Speaker 2: into your body, bringing it into your heart, making it useful,
Speaker 2: making the pain of your life useful for you, and
Speaker 2: allowing you to transcend it. And I do that, of course,
Speaker 2: through some storytelling, through guidance, and then through a lot
Speaker 2: of practices. And I hope that everyone that uses this
Speaker 2: book it'll become, you know, this dog eared companion. You'll
Speaker 2: read it, but then you'll keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2: You'll keep using it as a resource for meditation, for
Speaker 2: somatic practice, for you know, learning about essential oils and
Speaker 2: maudras and journal prompts, and how to make affirmations that
Speaker 2: really empower your personal life. But it is about you
Speaker 2: becoming your healer. You know something I try to let
Speaker 2: a lot of people know when I'm either leading a
Speaker 2: retreat or working one on one with clients is we're
Speaker 2: going to get really deep. But I am not your healer.
Speaker 2: You cannot project on me that I am here to
Speaker 2: save you and I'm the reason that you're going to
Speaker 2: get to the other side of whatever it is. I
Speaker 2: am a healer, studied and practiced. I am here to
Speaker 2: light the torch so you can see yourself more clearly.
Speaker 2: But it all rests within you and your own heart.
Speaker 2: And I hope that this book gives people more access
Speaker 2: to the truth of their heart, to that extra reservoir
Speaker 2: of strength that really sits inside of us, and permission
Speaker 2: to deeply recover from what may have happened or not
Speaker 2: happened in your life.
Speaker 1: So where can people find their copy? Debbie? What is
Speaker 1: the book's website? In any websites are a social channels
Speaker 1: you'd like to share?
Speaker 2: So this book is available everywhere officially April twenty second.
Speaker 2: I also did the audible, which I'm really excited about.
Speaker 2: I love using my voice so you can listen to
Speaker 2: the audiobook. You can get the book anywhere that you
Speaker 2: like to buy your books, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble. Please
Speaker 2: join me. I will be on tour very soon. I
Speaker 2: can't wait to meet everybody as I'm working with this book.
Speaker 2: You can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com,
Speaker 2: Forward slash Book, and also of course my ig at
Speaker 2: Debbie Brown Beautiful.
Speaker 1: We'll be shut in. We do that in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Thank you for spending some more time with us today, Debbie.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Doctor Joy. It is always a
Speaker 2: privilege and a pleasure to be with you. Thank you
Speaker 2: for your work, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Debbie was able to join us again today.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.
Speaker 1: So learn more about her or to grab a copy
Speaker 1: of Living in Wisdom. Be sure to visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four eight.
Speaker 1: Did you know? You can leave us a voicemail with
Speaker 1: your questions for the podcast. If you have movies or
Speaker 1: books you like to suggest for us to review, drop
Speaker 1: us a message at Memo dot FM slash Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indy Chubhu and Tyree
Speaker 1: rush An. Was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 1: Take good care,