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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four eight of Airpy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after

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Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. It can often feel like

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Speaker 1: healing should look a certain way. Meditating, journaling, seeing your affirmations.

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Speaker 1: These are surely all factors of the healing process. But

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Speaker 1: what happens when you know you need to dig deeper

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Speaker 1: but can't figure out how. Sometimes healing isn't as esthetic

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Speaker 1: or straightforward as it looks online. It's messy, it's nonlinear.

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Speaker 1: It's showing up to do the hard work when you'd

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Speaker 1: rather keep it light. So today I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: have Debbie Brown join us again. Debbie is a well

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Speaker 1: being educator, multidisciplinary healer, author, and host of the Deeply

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Speaker 1: Well podcast. As the founder of Debbie Brown well Being,

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Speaker 1: she has dedicated her career to helping leaders, artists, and

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Speaker 1: athletes navigate healing, self discovery, and person of growth through mindfulness,

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Speaker 1: spiritual psychology, and holistic wellness practices. After serving as Chief

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Speaker 1: Impact Officer at Choprah Global, she now sits on the

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Speaker 1: board of the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies. She's also

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Speaker 1: the author of Crystal Bliss and most recently, Living in Wisdom.

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Speaker 1: In today's conversation, we explore this deeply introspective and thorough

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Speaker 1: guide to emotions and values, cultivating self connection and unlacking

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Speaker 1: one's highest potential to build a stronger foundation rooted in

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Speaker 1: holistic healing. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TBG in session, or join us over in our Patreon channel.

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Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode, You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me again. Demy.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, what thank you for having me. This

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Speaker 2: is the conversation I've been waiting for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like it has been a long time.

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Speaker 1: We've seen each other kind of socially in between, but

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Speaker 1: it has been a long time since we've gathered behind

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Speaker 1: the podcast, Mike, So what has been going on? I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's a big question. What's been going on

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Speaker 1: and bringing you joy? Last chatted?

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Speaker 2: Ooh, you know what has been bringing me a lot

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Speaker 2: of joy? Truly, the feeling of completion this book that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be talking about with you today. It

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Speaker 2: had rattled in my mind for six years, took me

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Speaker 2: about two years to do, and then when I finally

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Speaker 2: turned in the manuscript and got the galley, it felt

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Speaker 2: like all of this space came into my spirit and body.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's like it was something that I needed

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Speaker 2: to complete and share. And as soon as that happened,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've been given access to like new

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Speaker 2: layers of my own creativity, new layers of thought. I

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Speaker 2: have space to think about new things. It's been feeling

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Speaker 2: really joyful. My body is kind of getting used to it,

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Speaker 2: my mind is getting used to it. But that feels

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Speaker 2: really exciting for me. I feel so much space inside

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: I love that. What a beautiful answer, you know. And

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Speaker 1: I know, like the book process is a very long

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Speaker 1: process regardless, right, Like it takes years before people see

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Speaker 1: it on the sholws. But tell me about the timing

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Speaker 1: of this, Like how had it been sitting with you

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Speaker 1: for so long before it kind of finally was given birth?

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Speaker 2: You know. I wrote my first book almost eight years ago,

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Speaker 2: which was called Crystal Bliss, which was a beautiful opportunity

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Speaker 2: and I was able to share, you know, my passion

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Speaker 2: for crystals, my passion for meditation. But I had a

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Speaker 2: lot of deeper stories to share, and that was always

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Speaker 2: known to me that at some point I was going

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Speaker 2: to share a lot deeper perspective and look and technique

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Speaker 2: and healing process, things that I had been working with personally,

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Speaker 2: things that I had amassed a lot of practice, and

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Speaker 2: things that I had used with clients. And so I

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Speaker 2: felt like God gave me the seed, the feeling, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't so much about getting it done right away.

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Speaker 2: I had a few different iterations of this kind of

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Speaker 2: come through for about six full years, but it was

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Speaker 2: really about divine timing and so God kept telling me, watch, look, prepare,

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Speaker 2: write down, start creating the space for this kind of

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Speaker 2: creativity to tell these kinds of stories. But it was

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Speaker 2: really about finding new ways to kind of romance my

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Speaker 2: life a little bit in the process of doing that,

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Speaker 2: like call my creativity forward to tell some harder stories

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Speaker 2: in a way that felt really useful, felt really purposeful.

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Speaker 2: And so that process was really interesting. I mean, oh

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Speaker 2: my God, did I fight it, fight it? Did I

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Speaker 2: fight the process? Did I stop and start so many times?

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Speaker 2: So many times? And then it made sense, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I think it was funny. One of my favorite

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Speaker 2: teachers and healers who tends to work with a lot

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Speaker 2: of creative something he said to me when I told

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Speaker 2: him that, Okay, the contract is signed, now I know

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Speaker 2: I got to deliver it. You know, we're going to

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Speaker 2: get going. He told me something really beautiful that turned

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Speaker 2: out to be very true for me. He said, you know,

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Speaker 2: when you're writing something that really is kind of I

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Speaker 2: call it like my debut rap album because all the

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Speaker 2: great hip hop classics, it is everything that artists went

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Speaker 2: through in their life up into the debut album. So

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Speaker 2: every perspective, every life experience, it is like you know,

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Speaker 2: this grand offering, and so he said, you know, when

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Speaker 2: you're ready to give that grand offering, you're going to

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Speaker 2: notice that some of your life is going to speed up.

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Speaker 2: You're going to have resolution about certain things you're writing about.

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Speaker 2: You're going to be given these kind of miraculous whispers

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Speaker 2: and symbols and cues from God to help you complete

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Speaker 2: the work. And I found that that really happened for me.

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Speaker 2: You know, some of the things that I write about

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Speaker 2: in the book, my past marriage, my relationship with my family,

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Speaker 2: my son. You know, I started seeing such miraculous growth

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Speaker 2: in all those areas as I put kind of the

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Speaker 2: pen to the paper or my fingers to the keypad.

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Speaker 2: And then by the time I finished the book, it

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Speaker 2: was really like this volume of life and living that

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Speaker 2: was just so complete in all the best ways, like

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Speaker 2: every single loose string had been tied into a bow.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just like immensely grateful for that. It ended

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Speaker 2: up being such a therapeutic, to say the least, catalyzing

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Speaker 2: process for me.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah. You know, Debbie, and you know, being

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Speaker 1: a fan of your work and being you know, in

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Speaker 1: connection with you for the past couple of years, like

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Speaker 1: you definitely are someone who shares, right, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: feel like you are super secretive, Like you are a

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Speaker 1: part of your work in the ways that you share.

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Speaker 1: But this book was definitely different, right, Like, you definitely

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Speaker 1: share more about like grief and laws in ways that

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like I had seen you share in

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Speaker 1: your platform, and I know that can be a risk,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure it felt like that to you. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if you can share, Like, how do you know

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Speaker 1: you are in a heeled enough space to be able

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Speaker 1: to share about something on the written page, Because there's

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Speaker 1: like the feeling it, and then there's the writing it

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Speaker 1: and then releasing it for other people to kind of

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Speaker 1: take in, Right, So, how do you know when you

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Speaker 1: are in a place to be able to write about

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the things you wrote?

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Speaker 2: God, I knew when I came on the show these

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Speaker 2: questions would be questioned name, oh my God, and thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for your words? My lord? Do you

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Speaker 2: know the feeling is mutual? I think I have a

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Speaker 2: few ways that I think I want to approach this question.

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Speaker 2: I know we are in a day and age of

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Speaker 2: like deep sharing and deep truth and as I was

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Speaker 2: kind of walking through a lot of the stories that

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Speaker 2: I share in this book, I was also in the

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Speaker 2: midst of serving. You know, a lot of the things

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Speaker 2: that were coming forward were happening like immediately when the

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Speaker 2: pandemic started, and so that wasn't a place to share from.

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Speaker 2: You know, like I have a lot of patience for

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Speaker 2: the unfolding of life, and I feel like I am

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Speaker 2: someone that believes in sharing the wisdom and not necessarily

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Speaker 2: steeping in the pain and sharing the trauma of the moment.

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Speaker 2: Now that is not for everybody, but as a teacher

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Speaker 2: and as someone that helps facilitate and guide, I think

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Speaker 2: that's really important. I needed to metabolize the experiences that

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Speaker 2: were happening to me in my life. I needed to

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Speaker 2: be in process with it, because you know, at first experience,

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Speaker 2: at first glance, you kind of have to sift through

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Speaker 2: the pain, sift through the reflection, and start to see

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Speaker 2: where everything is falling. So I had to let myself

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Speaker 2: be shattered in certain respects and just let it all

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Speaker 2: kind of be in front of me before before I saw,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is what is the rebuild? What is

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Speaker 2: the learning? What is the work that is in front

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Speaker 2: of me? I believe deeply that every single thing that

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Speaker 2: happens to each and every one of us serves purpose.

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Speaker 2: And by serve purpose, I mean literally serves a purpose

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Speaker 2: and your life and in the world, but also serves

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Speaker 2: and informs your life's purpose. And I felt like a

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Speaker 2: lot of the experiences that I have through some dark

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Speaker 2: teachers in my life, like loss and grief and betrayal,

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Speaker 2: you know, those are things that are meant to be

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Speaker 2: deeply thought about and understood. You know, I was in

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Speaker 2: a lot of pain, and I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: reverence for the pain that I was in, and so

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Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to see it through. I

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Speaker 2: needed to see myself be on the other side of it.

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Speaker 2: I needed to see the wisdom in it. And then

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Speaker 2: I needed to start sharing and teaching my learnings in

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Speaker 2: real life and seeing how those things were affecting other people.

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Speaker 2: And then I felt like it was ready to be

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Speaker 2: shared in the book. A lot of this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: just every story I tell in here has probably never

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Speaker 2: been heard before, because I really thought I needed to

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Speaker 2: give some of those experiences the respect that they deserved.

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Speaker 2: And it didn't feel like doing that on an Instagram

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Speaker 2: post or an Instagram story or even one singular podcast

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Speaker 2: was really the place to do that. So I sat

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Speaker 2: with my work and I sat with my learning, and

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Speaker 2: I made it useful and I wrote about it. And

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Speaker 2: my deepest intention is that it is useful and necessary

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Speaker 2: and helpful to whoever happens to connect with it.

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Speaker 1: And is there any part of you that has been

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Speaker 1: worried about, like how these not seen before stories will

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Speaker 1: be received or impact the work that you do as

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Speaker 1: like a teacher and a healer and a facilitator.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to say I worry about that. I will

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Speaker 2: say that just in general, the feeling of being so

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Speaker 2: vulnerable and open it brings up a lot of things,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think naturally, I'm a very private person.

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Speaker 2: Probably anyone that follows me knows that. Like, I'm definitely

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Speaker 2: down to give glimpses. But I save my best parts

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Speaker 2: for the people that know me and for the people

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Speaker 2: that have time and presence in my life. And that's

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Speaker 2: really important because I think, you know, especially in this

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Speaker 2: day and age, with all the sharing and all the

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Speaker 2: broadcasting of ourselves, we can really get burnt out and

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Speaker 2: we can kind of contort ourselves to meet the perception

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Speaker 2: of so many people. We don't know and that don't

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Speaker 2: know us. So I save a lot of my best

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Speaker 2: parts for me and those I'm close to. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I did have this experience where as soon as the

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Speaker 2: book was finished and I had the galley and it

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Speaker 2: hit me and it was like, Oh God, all this

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Speaker 2: is all this is going to be in the world.

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Speaker 2: I just kind of built an altar for my book

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Speaker 2: and I started praying to God about it, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I need to make peace with this. I

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Speaker 2: need a big peace with the feeling of being seen

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Speaker 2: in some of the harder moments, because you know, when

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Speaker 2: you write a book, well, really, when you do anything, now,

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Speaker 2: it exists for as long as it exists, and it's

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Speaker 2: on public record, and everyone will have access to these

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Speaker 2: kind of more intimate pieces and parts of you. So

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Speaker 2: I didn't have fear. I know God wanted me to

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Speaker 2: do this, so it felt like an honor to do,

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Speaker 2: you know necessary. But I did spend a lot of

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Speaker 2: time in prayer in these last six months waiting for

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Speaker 2: this book to come out, just really being with myself

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Speaker 2: and being with my truth and knowing that it's all okay,

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Speaker 2: and every story that's told. I'm completely on the other

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Speaker 2: side of you know, for many years, for many years,

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Speaker 2: I've been on the other side of So I have

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Speaker 2: a lot of confidence in that and a lot of

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Speaker 2: pride in what my life looks like.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you kind of come out the gate

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Speaker 1: swinging in this book, Daddy, Like one of the first

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Speaker 1: chapters is you have permission to shatter, basically like to

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Speaker 1: complete we fall apart, and as much value as I

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Speaker 1: think we both recognize, I think for our community, for

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Speaker 1: the therapy for black girls, community minity, people will hear

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Speaker 1: that and be like, absolutely not, I don't have time, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: we are doing our best to just hold it together,

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Speaker 1: and so talk to me about like the permission to

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Speaker 1: shatter and the value that's on the other side.

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Speaker 2: This is something I've thought about so much because I think,

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Speaker 2: especially within our community, we've just had to be resilient

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Speaker 2: for centuries, right, So it's like some of our resilience

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Speaker 2: and are forging through and our process and our positivity, right,

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Speaker 2: our ability to not be beaten is what is our

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Speaker 2: strongest pull in most moments, and it's incredibly beautiful. I'm

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Speaker 2: so grateful, so grateful for the generations of resilience that

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Speaker 2: have been burrowed deeply into my cells. And at the

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Speaker 2: same thought and point of that, you know, a lot

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Speaker 2: of us alive right now. We're the first generation that's

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Speaker 2: ever even had a chance to feel. So there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of things that we're doing for ourselves, and

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Speaker 2: we're doing for our children, We are doing for our

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Speaker 2: parents that has just absolutely never been done before. But

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Speaker 2: it's going to change the flow of how we're able

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Speaker 2: to be ourselves forever. And so, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: being broken gets a bad rap. It's not about being

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Speaker 2: broken forever. It's not about putting this label on yourself

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Speaker 2: that has to be your identity. I am broken, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of us go through things that absolutely break us.

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Speaker 2: A lot of us go through things that hurt in

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Speaker 2: ways most people couldn't imagine. And so I had spent

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Speaker 2: so much of my life someone who had experienced various traumas,

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Speaker 2: various complex situations since birth. I'm someone that was just

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Speaker 2: always piecing myself back together and going and going fast

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Speaker 2: and doing well. And I'm just like you know, covered

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Speaker 2: in a little bit of scar tissue, but still luminous

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Speaker 2: in doing what I'm supposed to do. But that also

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Speaker 2: meant that I wasn't really in a space to feel

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Speaker 2: all the things that God needed me to know. And

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Speaker 2: I find that when we don't allow ourselves to feel

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Speaker 2: the fullness of our emotions, whatever that is, we're also

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Speaker 2: cutting off kind of our divine channel to God because

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Speaker 2: we're not listening, we're not choosing to kind of interact

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Speaker 2: with what's present. And so I didn't want to feel

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Speaker 2: cut off, you know, I didn't want to feel muted emotionally.

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Speaker 2: I know what that feels like to kind of forge

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Speaker 2: through and so all of your senses are a little

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Speaker 2: bit dulled. So when some of the bigger things that

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Speaker 2: happened to me in recent years happened, I felt like,

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Speaker 2: what am I holding it all together for? And what

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Speaker 2: could I be if I don't right? Like? What could

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Speaker 2: I be if I don't Throughout so much of my life,

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Speaker 2: I had looked at myself safe, for instance, like a

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Speaker 2: vase that somehow kept either falling over or getting thrown

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Speaker 2: against the wall. And then I'm like kinsugi, like using

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Speaker 2: this goal to piece myself back together, and now I'm

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Speaker 2: a vase again with all these golden cracks. But then

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Speaker 2: some things happened and I was just like, this has

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Speaker 2: to stay on the floor. I don't want to be

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Speaker 2: contained anymore. I don't want to be a vessel again.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be a vase that holds things.

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Speaker 2: I just want to be free. And I think that

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Speaker 2: is some of the beauty of what letting yourself break

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Speaker 2: and then choosing what you'll become after that really provides us.

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Speaker 2: It's true freedom.

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Speaker 1: Mhm. And how do we because I think that there's

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Speaker 1: a level of safety that has to be there before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking, I think this is kind of

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Speaker 1: where our worlds collide. Like I'm thinking about this as

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Speaker 1: a therapist, Like you know, what are we putting down

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Speaker 1: so that there's like a blanket almost for these pieces

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Speaker 1: to fall apart?

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Speaker 2: Right? Like?

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Speaker 1: What is the safety? And you kind of walk through

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Speaker 1: that kind of roadmap for what healing looks like. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit of about recognizing like, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's time for things to shadow, but maybe the work

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Speaker 1: that needs to be done before you.

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Speaker 2: Aways, so we are not just stopping at the brokenness, right,

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Speaker 2: Like part of becoming is finding the help you need

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Speaker 2: and finding the help you deserve. And for many of

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Speaker 2: us that get to that point of having such a

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Speaker 2: big break. It means that usually throughout our entire lives

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Speaker 2: there was no support, and so you were used to

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Speaker 2: kind of holding it together and being just with yourself.

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Speaker 2: But when you are in the pursuit of freedom, when

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Speaker 2: you are in the pursuit of becoming more, I think

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Speaker 2: it is absolutely imperative to not solely rely on your

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Speaker 2: own guidance and counsel, but to seek and get help,

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Speaker 2: and to be really adaptable and fluid in the kind

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Speaker 2: of help you seek. Right. So, I'm someone that had

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Speaker 2: been going to therapy for many, many, many, many many years,

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Speaker 2: but I found in this moment that actually it wasn't

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Speaker 2: cognitive therapy that was most helpful for me, And so

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Speaker 2: I found resources to say, well, I know that this

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Speaker 2: particular modality may not be a fit for me anymore,

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Speaker 2: but what could be? And so I found myself going

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Speaker 2: into specifically somatic therapy and then finding different somatic processes

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Speaker 2: to work with myself at home. I found myself deeply

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Speaker 2: leaning into practices that I had known for many many

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Speaker 2: years but maybe hadn't been as present with as I

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Speaker 2: could be. I found myself becoming really devoted to the

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Speaker 2: way that I cared for myself when you're in your

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Speaker 2: most broken states. I think it is so important to

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Speaker 2: make your life as beautiful as you possibly can. For

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Speaker 2: all of us, based on what our lives look like

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Speaker 2: at the time, be it socioeconomic status, be it flexibility,

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Speaker 2: be it freedom, that's going to be a little bit

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Speaker 2: different for each of us. In this book, I have

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Speaker 2: so many different practices and protocols and just kind of

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Speaker 2: deeper understandings of it's available to people. But for each

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Speaker 2: of us, that's a unique recipe we have to find

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Speaker 2: for ourselves. But I believe deeply in a holistic approach.

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Speaker 2: Some of the things I did, of course, was be

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Speaker 2: in therapy, work my own process, meditate every day. I

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Speaker 2: made a lot of time to rest. I think what

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Speaker 2: I recognized was I had been in fight or flight

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Speaker 2: and freeze my whole entire life. So I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know who I was or what I felt like. If

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Speaker 2: I wasn't putting out fires for other people or myself,

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Speaker 2: if I wasn't kind of carrying the emotional labor and

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Speaker 2: weight from everyone around me all the time, and so

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Speaker 2: part of my ability to figure out what is the

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Speaker 2: truth of who I am and how I feel really

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Speaker 2: rested in dedicating two entire years, two entire full years

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Speaker 2: to resetting my nervous system. That is not something that

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Speaker 2: can happen in a weekend. It's something you can taste,

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Speaker 2: it's something you can begin to really receive from deep

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Speaker 2: relief from right away. But it also takes time for

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Speaker 2: your body to heal and your body to create some

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Speaker 2: new pathways for your brain to heal. And so I

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Speaker 2: leaned into a lot of those practices, and it became about,

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Speaker 2: you know, being able to lean on deeply supportive community,

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Speaker 2: my friends, my family, healers, other people in my space, therapists,

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Speaker 2: and it was about being incredibly devoted to my own

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Speaker 2: self and my own soul and my own body like

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Speaker 2: I never have before in my life. I cut out everything,

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Speaker 2: no TV, no movies, really, no music except for a

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Speaker 2: solelection playlist shout out to Jokay for over two years,

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Speaker 2: and it was about reparenting myself, healing the parts of

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Speaker 2: me that said yes to chaos even though I didn't

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Speaker 2: realize it. It became about forgiving myself for some of

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Speaker 2: the positions I put myself into, and it became about

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Speaker 2: learning how to be the kind of mother I've always

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Speaker 2: dreamed of. Being with my son and being completely focused

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Speaker 2: on that part of my life more than anything else.

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Speaker 1: So, Debbie, I would love to hear your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: this because I hear you talking about like spending so

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Speaker 1: much of your life in like fight or flight and freeze,

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Speaker 1: and I think many of us are operating in that

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Speaker 1: place right and it feels like we have to kind

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Speaker 1: of crash or there is some experience of crashing before

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Speaker 1: we recognize, you know what, this is not serving me,

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Speaker 1: Like it feels like there needs to be typically some

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Speaker 1: big thing for us to then say, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: make this change, like I'm going to look at how

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Speaker 1: I interact with the world. I want to look at

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Speaker 1: how I change things. Do you feel like there has

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Speaker 1: to be some big thing or has that been your

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Speaker 1: experience and like the clients you've worked with, or could

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Speaker 1: it be that somebody just says, hey, I want to

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Speaker 1: examine this for myself even before like a big thing happens.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely think that both paths can happen. I think

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Speaker 2: it really depends on the level of awareness and kind

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Speaker 2: of the fine tuning of one's own intuition. I think

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Speaker 2: for a long time because some of those parts of

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Speaker 2: me were really disjointed. I had to or continue to

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Speaker 2: find myself, specifically learning through pain and challenge. Something that

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Speaker 2: I've said for a long time is, you know, listen

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Speaker 2: to the whispers, because you do have a choice. Listen

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Speaker 2: to the whispers. They're always there. God always comes to

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Speaker 2: us as this kind of blissful little kiss on the

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Speaker 2: cheek or whisper, And whether or not we listen depends

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Speaker 2: on incrementally how much more intense our experiences get that

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Speaker 2: want our attention. So I didn't listen to a lot

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Speaker 2: of whispers for various things in my life, and I

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Speaker 2: heard them clearly, and I kept telling myself, I can

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Speaker 2: control this, I can find a way around this. I

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Speaker 2: can find a way for that not to be the case.

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Speaker 2: And so eventually God caught my fade. I got a

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Speaker 2: punch in the face, I got knocked down on the floor.

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Speaker 2: So I think, you know, as people, we learned pain

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Speaker 2: until we don't. My shattering allowed me to really understand

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Speaker 2: that I can learn with ease, I can learn with grace.

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Speaker 2: I can learn through really observation and the twinkle of

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Speaker 2: an eye, the whisper, the symbols, and that now very

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Speaker 2: much that's how I make new choices and pivot in

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Speaker 2: my life. That's how I know how to kind of

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Speaker 2: walk away from something before I even walk into it.

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Speaker 2: And so I think at this point in my life,

434
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: I can absolutely learn through joyous experiences. I learn so

435
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: much through presence and observation of others or just reflection

436
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: on my own self and my own awareness with God's grace.

437
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: But I think before you get to that place, a

438
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 2: lot of us have to be disarmed. And if we

439
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 2: don't disarm ourselves when we're told to, our ability to

440
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: do it through gentleness does kind of change. But we

441
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: can get back to that. There's this quote that I love.

442
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: It's this very old, kind of beautiful little anecdote that said,

443
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: the snake that cannot shed must perish. So if we

444
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: don't learn to shed our skin as we're being called

445
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: to and told to every time, you may have to

446
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: die for it, right, not literally, I hope, but figuratively.

447
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: You may have to have some kind of internal death

448
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 2: or dark knight of the soul. But if if you

449
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: really listen, you can just let it be a shed.

450
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 2: You can let it be this kind of gentle unraveling

451
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: and unfolding, an opportunity for something new and different.

452
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you've used

453
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: this word a couple of times already today, and I

454
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: was particularly struck by it in reading the book Devotion,

455
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: because I don't feel like that's a word I've seen

456
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: used in like healing texts in you know, like this World,

457
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: and so I want to hear more about this idea

458
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: of devotion and like the relationship, it has to a

459
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: greater sense of healing.

460
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: I think when we approached the conversation of self care,

461
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: and as someone that has been really kind of teaching

462
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: self care, specifically in a holistic lens for the last decade,

463
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: it was one of the hardest things that I ever

464
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: had to do for myself but also had to teach.

465
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: Whenever I'd walk in rooms and talk about self care,

466
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: people felt like it was so silly or small that

467
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: it couldn't possibly give you the healing that you need,

468
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: or that it was selfish, or if you've had complex

469
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: lived experiences, it could be deeply triggering and uncomfortable to

470
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: start to meet your own needs or be present with

471
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: yourself and your body. I started to switch the lens

472
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: to really being about a path of devotion devoting myself

473
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: to deepening my connection with God and devoting myself to

474
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: myself learning what my needs are. And I think when

475
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 2: we look at it as being in devotion of it

476
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: changes the reverence that we have for ourselves in our lives,

477
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: and it really allows us to approach it in a

478
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: way that can be very consistent and also very beautiful.

479
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: Right instead of just like, oh, I've got to, you know,

480
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: band aid this up, I've got to band aid that up,

481
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: I've got to fix that pothole, and just to stay

482
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: above ground, I'm looking at it as a pleasure. I'm

483
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: looking at it as a privilege to care for my heart,

484
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: to care for my one life that I'm getting, to

485
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: care for, my purpose, to care for the things that

486
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: God has entrusted me with, and you know, really just

487
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: to care for this life that I have been given.

488
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: And I think when we're able to look at ourselves

489
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: as being worthy of our own devotion, it changes the

490
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: way that we're able to show up in some of

491
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: our harder experiences, and it changes the way that we're

492
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: able to be ourselves in the world and with other people.

493
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: So in the book you talk about and you just

494
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: mentioned it too, like this need for control that many

495
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: of us have, that it may not even be like

496
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: obvious on the outside, and that that is the thing

497
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: you've often to wrestle with most good clients. Can you

498
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: say a little bit about how we may be masking

499
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: this need for control in our lives and how it

500
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 1: shows up in your work?

501
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I think one of the biggest ways

502
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: so many of us mask what is truly just a

503
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: desire to control is through self righteousness. It's through service,

504
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: It's through a lot of good intentions, right, And I

505
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: think that's what makes it tricky for us to find,

506
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: especially for those of us that are empathetic, that are

507
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: highly sensitive, that are intuitive, that are people that are

508
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: deep feelers and really caring. It is so easy to

509
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: get high on your own supply when you're someone that

510
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: people come to for things, you know, But it's also

511
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: incredibly isolating, and so you know, I think when we

512
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: are trying too hard to control our own experience, to

513
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: find solutions just from our own minds for our experience,

514
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: or to control the feelings that other people are having

515
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: around us, we really miss the mark, you know. I

516
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: think control is this very clever, sophisticated way of avoiding

517
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: what it is to feel, what it is to trust,

518
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: what it is to truly have faith. You Know, something

519
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: that I find really interesting is a lot of people

520
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: I know that have deep faith, that really have deep

521
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: connections with God, struggle with control, completely struggle with it.

522
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: And I always say, but where's the room for God?

523
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: If you're making all the decisions. Where's the room for God?

524
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: If you are by yourself with only your brain trying

525
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: to come up with every solution before you just sit

526
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: and feel and look at what's in front of you.

527
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important for people to just

528
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: gently look at the ways that they avoid their own

529
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: emotion and the ways that they avoid allowing other people

530
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: to have emotions. So what that looks like sometimes is

531
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: like if someone comes to you and you know, either

532
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: they tell you they need help or you are projecting

533
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: on them that they need help, and you're now rushing

534
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: into action to come up with all these solutions or

535
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: fix it or make it more comfortable. I'd really question, like,

536
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: what is it that you're scared of, and what is

537
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: it that you're avoiding, and what is hard about feeling

538
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: the pain and other people and the pain in yourself?

539
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: And just sit with it, because it won't go away

540
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: until you do.

541
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: So you give us an outline in the book of

542
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: these practices that and you describe them as practices. Right.

543
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: I think that we, you know, ultimately would be doing

544
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: daily to kind of give ourselves the best chance at healing. Right, Like,

545
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: this is what healing actually looks like in practice. But

546
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: meditation is the one that you talk about being the

547
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: most difficult, even though in my mind it feels like, oh,

548
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: like this feels like not an easy process, but it

549
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 1: feels easy to access in a lot of ways. So

550
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: can you talk about like what meditation is and why

551
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: it is often so difficult for people?

552
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, Oh, meditation has been one of

553
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: the single greatest gifts of my entire life, and it's

554
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: also been one of my most challenging teachers to sit with.

555
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: So meditation, I think it in the most simplistic way

556
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: that we see and know it. It's like sitting down,

557
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: being still and being silent. And that sounds easy enough,

558
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: I think till each of us try to do it,

559
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: because what happens when you get still everything comes to

560
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: the surface. Most of us spend so much of our

561
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: lives trying to move fast to bypass what we're feeling,

562
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: or bypass some of the harder realities of life, or

563
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: even past memories and ruminating thoughts. We just go, go, go, go, go, do,

564
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: do do. When you meditate, we're saying, hey, you are

565
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: worthy and enough without doing anything, and that can be

566
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: incredibly confronting if you have spent your whole life doing

567
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: the opposite. So the thing about meditation, which I think

568
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: is very similar to joy and anything else we're doing

569
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: with ourselves for the first time, is it is a practice.

570
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: It is about being present without judgment, and it's about

571
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: really just letting yourself look at your own discomfort. The

572
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: few first times that you sit down to meditate, it

573
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 2: may annoy you, depending on what's happened in your life.

574
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: It may terrify you, depending on what's happening in your life.

575
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: When you were still, when you were quiet, things are

576
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: going to come up to the surface. But I think

577
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 2: the beauty of a meditation practice is they come up

578
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: to the surface so you can begin to observe them

579
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: and relate to them differently, and relate them so you

580
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: can actually find the space of what is my authentic

581
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: voice and what is my ability to just be present

582
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: and see what is in front of me and happening.

583
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: A lot of us kind of miss the observation phase

584
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: because we're going straight into action. But if we don't

585
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: sit and really behold what's in front of us, absolutely

586
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: nothing changes inside of us or outside of us, even

587
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 2: if we feel like it does, even if we feel

588
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: like we are accomplishing or gaining or doing. At some point,

589
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: we're all going to be forced to sit and be

590
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: still and reckon with ourselves and reckon with our choices.

591
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: When you kind of proactively approach certain practices, you give

592
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: the opportunity to yourself to not always have to do

593
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: that through a lot of challenges and a lot of

594
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: practices in the book that I share, especially meditation, it's

595
00:33:54,200 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: about bringing yourself into a quiet power, bringing yourself into

596
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: a new access point of who and what you are,

597
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: and also connecting your brain and your heart. You know,

598
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: one of the hardest things I think about meditating and

599
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: I think about doing various practices, is so many of

600
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: us are intellectualizers. And that's exactly why you wrote this book.

601
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: You cannot think your way out of some of your deeper,

602
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: harder experiences and truths you can only feel your way

603
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: out of them, and through meditation and through doing various

604
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: practices you build your capacity to do that with.

605
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: Ease mm hmm and in my mind, and you have

606
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: outlined this in the book as well, like meditation often

607
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: is a nice compliment to journaling, which you also talk about.

608
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: So can you talk about the purpose of journaling as

609
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: a part of healing as will?

610
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, journaling is where you really give yourself the

611
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: chance I think, to release you know, and journaling can

612
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: be just so bespoken, unique to each of us and

613
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: how each of our brains work. So for some people,

614
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: journaling through voice notes feels really good, and I always

615
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: recommend for some people that like to journal in that way,

616
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: including myself, sometimes whenever you get a chance, try to

617
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: just get those voice notes somewhere and transcribe them. I

618
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: prefer kind of keeping our journals so we can look

619
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: back at who we are and continue to see how

620
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: we grow. Some people like to burn the paper as

621
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: soon as it's done. See what feels best for you.

622
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: But you know, journaling either through voice notodes, through prompts,

623
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: through questions and guidance that you're gaining from other sources

624
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: or through your own guidance, but it gives you a

625
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: place to be in deep inquiry with yourself in a

626
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: safe way. So I think it's journaling is one of

627
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: the greatest ways to track your growth. It's one of

628
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: the greatest ways to really begin to see how you

629
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: uniquely think about things and feel about things. It's a

630
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: way to give space for anger, because we deserve to

631
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: feel that too if we do. It's a space to

632
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: really give over to sadness when you feel it, give

633
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: over to personal accomplishment and happiness. But I believe we

634
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: should be documenting our lives like at the end of

635
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: the day, no matter what you do, no matter who

636
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: you love, no matter what you create, life is really

637
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: about you and God. That is the fundamental relationship while

638
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: you're here. It is about your unique individual human experience first,

639
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: which then allows us to come into community. And I

640
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: think journaling really helps you get more clear on what

641
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: your human experience is and what the sum of your

642
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 2: experiences have created in your life.

643
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: So one of the questions that you offer, both I

644
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: think as a journal problem but also for a lot

645
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: of the larger exercises that you're asking in the book

646
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: is who am I call to be right now? And

647
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: I think when I think about that question, especially in

648
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 1: the backdrop of everything happening in the world, I feel

649
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: like my answer is like lid something around, like a

650
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: being of service to other people. But and see, I'm

651
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: probably doing what you are encouraging us not to do

652
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: in the book. I'm judging my answer, like should the

653
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: answer be like something for somebody else or should the

654
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: answer be something like inherently for me. So I'm wondering

655
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: if you can give suggestions around, like how do we

656
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: answer that question? And I'm guessing the answer to that

657
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: question might be different at different points in our lives.

658
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think, honestly, the answer to the question

659
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 2: it's kind of both. When we ask ourselves that question,

660
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: you know, being alive, we are having two distinct experiences

661
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: at the same time. We are having our internal experience,

662
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: the part that typically only we know about, and we're

663
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: having our external experience what we are doing in the world,

664
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 2: how we are in relationship with others, and what their

665
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: perception of us is. So that is happening at all

666
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 2: the time, and so I think it's fair to ask

667
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 2: yourself that question in both of those ways. Who am

668
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: I being called to become? Inside? First? And then who

669
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: am I being called to become in the greater world?

670
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: In service, because we're all alive to serve and any

671
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: of the work that we are blessed or privileged to

672
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: do on ourselves. Because sometimes it is very true that

673
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: it can feel absolutely impossible to do this depending on

674
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: your circumstance. But if you do have the privilege and

675
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: the fortitude to do some of this personal work on yourself,

676
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: it's imperative that you then turn that into service. It's

677
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: why we're here. So I think when we're in that

678
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 2: space of asking ourselves, who am I being called to become?

679
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: Right now? It is an ever evolving answer that we

680
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: should always be in flow with. We should always be

681
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: asking that question when we find ourselves kind of in

682
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: new chapters of who we are, new moments. We are

683
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: constantly shedding, and with every shed we get the chance

684
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: to become more, to become something else, And I feel

685
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: to become something more beautiful, more powerful, more influential to

686
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: whatever our person an all ecosystem is.

687
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you know, Debbie,

688
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: I am always, well, not always, but often thinking about

689
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: like social media and like technology and how it impacts

690
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: like healing, and like what this work looks like now

691
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: versus like twenty years ago. And so you recently posted

692
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: on Threads I believe I believe it was Threads that

693
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 1: you feel like you are a couple of years away

694
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: from like completely not even being online, right, like it

695
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: kind of is there at the store front, but not

696
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: really like really engaging. And I also was struck by

697
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: in the book, like how many times you're talking about

698
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: our online behavior in terms of like unfollowing people or

699
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: unfollowing people, and like how that's a part of our

700
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: lexicon that was not there twenty years ago. And so

701
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like what role do you see social media

702
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: and technology kind of playing and healing and how we

703
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: have to be careful about the role that it's playing

704
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: in our lives.

705
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what a question. What a question, And

706
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: what a time to be alive, because I just want

707
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: to like kind of ground in the fact that, like

708
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: we are really doing things no human being has ever

709
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: done before, and we are living lifestyles that have absolutely

710
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: never existed on this planet before, and there is really

711
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: something to be said for that, you know, like we

712
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: really kind of have to look at that and give

713
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: ourselves a lot of grace. There's a reason why we're

714
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: stressed out and why we do feel like we don't

715
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: really know what we're doing, because we are doing a

716
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: lot of things that our bodies and brains just were

717
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: not evolutionarily designed for. Yet are we are that missing link?

718
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: We are the cavemen of this time? But I think

719
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: you know, first of all, yeah, my desire is to

720
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: really be off social I love serving, I love being

721
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 2: with people, but I am an in person person. God

722
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: designed me really for one on one or God designed

723
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: me to share energy with human beings I am physically with,

724
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 2: and that is always my priority. I always give more

725
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: to my real life than my digital life ninety percent

726
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: of the time. So I have a profound longing to

727
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: not be perceived. I have a profound longing to not

728
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: be on social media, to not have to tweet, to

729
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: not have to thread, to not have to be on

730
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: Instagram other than for absolute pleasure. And I think that

731
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: part has been weird for a lot of us because

732
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: we are trying to be so many things online and

733
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: sometimes it really isn't possible or easy to be your

734
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: truest self, especially if you're a lover. I think the

735
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: Internet was really hard for me over the last fifteen

736
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: years because I am a lover to the bone, I

737
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: am an impath to the bone, and I kind of

738
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: historically observed patterns and shifts, and so we have made

739
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: huge shifts into being so much more positive to each

740
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 2: other in the last couple of years, I think since

741
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: the pandemic. But if it was five years ago, my god,

742
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 2: everyone was ripping each other to shreds. Let's not forget

743
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 2: the read each other culture that was so prevalent. Just

744
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: there was so much tearing down, There was so much negativity.

745
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: Anything anyone said was just met by people on all

746
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: corners of the world with all kind of bizarre projections

747
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: and things. And I think that's the thing that I

748
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: don't love, you know, when that happens online. And I

749
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 2: also recognize I don't have to take it. I think

750
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: we have this kind of false belief that you have

751
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: to take in what anybody from anywhere says to you,

752
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: and it's just not true. They don't know who you are, period.

753
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: You know, a stranger telling you something online. It is

754
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: such a minuscule view, even if it is praise. You know,

755
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 2: we can never take neither praise nor criticism too deeply,

756
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: So I choose to not really engage with either. I

757
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: choose to just listen to what I'm supposed to do,

758
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 2: try to show up with my work and with the

759
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: people that you know, I'm able to be in front of.

760
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: But I think we're an interesting time where the internet

761
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: has given us so much access to community and to

762
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: the ability to be seen, be heard, be in some

763
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: form of relationship with others. But I think everyone should

764
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: watch closely that they are not using that to bypass

765
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: having real connection in real life. If you're someone who

766
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: has been maybe a little harder to do that in

767
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: real life. It is very easy to find sanctuary in

768
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: an online world and mistakenly think that that's enough, But

769
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: it's not the same thing as true relationship, as true connection,

770
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: as being present for your human, earthly experience. I think

771
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: it's really important that we don't turn our lives into

772
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: a game of sims without realizing it, and look up

773
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: and say, you know, what am I? What is my life?

774
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: What is my real legacy? What impact have I actually had?

775
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: And where have I been quite honestly wasting time or

776
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: wasting resources. I think the last few years there's just

777
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: been this kind of like, yes, cis culture of everybody

778
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: liking and leaving comments, but not building relationship in real life.

779
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: Real relationship with another human being requires a lot more

780
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 2: than likes and praise and quick little messages on social

781
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: media or texts. It requires vulnerability. It requires pros and

782
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: cons and effort and getting it wrong sometimes, something that

783
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: I love with all my real life friends. It's like,

784
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: I'll be the first to say, please, don't pedestal me.

785
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: I am gonna get a lot of this wrong. I

786
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: have to have this space. I tell this to people,

787
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: to people I'm friends with, I have to have the

788
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: space to disappoint you. I have to be allowed to

789
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: disappoint you sometimes. And I think we miss that very

790
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 2: necessary building and stretching and growing when we are only

791
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: focused kind of on online networking or keeping up with

792
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: the likes and the posts and the responses and the

793
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: dms on social media.

794
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: And that is definitely a word there. Debbie, thank you so.

795
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: I love that you kind of round out the book

796
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: by talking about the importance of reclaiming joy, and I

797
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: wonder if you could offer us some ideas around like,

798
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: how we dismantle this idea that joy is something that

799
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: needs to be earned.

800
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, my anecdote for that, because I think

801
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: I was very much that person where I didn't realize

802
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: it until I actually felt the real thing inside of

803
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: my body. But we can get really addictive to perform

804
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: of joy, which is some of you know, especially if

805
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 2: you're someone that does kind of have great things happening,

806
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: and so you're making announcements or you're giving speeches, or

807
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 2: you have beautiful posts, or you have people that are

808
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: cheering for you. You know, I always ask when those

809
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: things happen, do you feel it inside to the same

810
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: degree that you are pushing it externally. That's a big

811
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: important thing to look at because a lot of times

812
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: we can, without even our own permission or knowing, get

813
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 2: stuck into a cycle of performative joy, which is acting happy,

814
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: acting excited, having the raw raw yelling, celebrating, you know,

815
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: all the exclamation points, all the parties. But how many

816
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: of us have those experiences and inside still feel like

817
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: it's not enough, And then wonder why, and wonder what's

818
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: wrong with us? Why don't I feel as happy as

819
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: I should? Why don't I feel as happy as people

820
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: think I should. And so when you start looking at that,

821
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: it kind of opens up a new world for us.

822
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that I think it's

823
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: important to know is on that journey to joy, it's

824
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: going to take practice. You're going to have to stretch

825
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: your capacity to feel good things and to feel safe

826
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: about it. If you've had, you know, a harder time

827
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: in life maybe than others, or more challenges than others,

828
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: there is going to be a fear that if I

829
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: give myself over to this joy, will the other shoe drop?

830
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: Will I be blindsided by something bad happening? The truth

831
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 2: is maybe right, The truth is most likely another shoe

832
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: will drop at some point, because that's what it is

833
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: to be alive, that's the human experience. Both are always

834
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: going to be happening. Grief and joy, challenge and progress

835
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: are always always present and a part of what this

836
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 2: human experience is. And I think when we just allow

837
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 2: ourselves to kind of accept that guaranteed truth, we can

838
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: relax into joy because we're grateful that it's come, and

839
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: we're grateful it's here while it's here for however long

840
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: it's here, and that joy and that feeling, and that

841
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: allowance creates the fuel for us to be able to

842
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: survive and move through absolutely everything else that may greet

843
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: us on the path. And so my road to that

844
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: was really through kind of constructing what I came to

845
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 2: understand and call tiny joys. I am not searching for

846
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: happiness in my life. I'm searching always. I am embodying

847
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: enoughness to me, the journey isn't about happiness. It's about

848
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: everything feels like enough. I don't feel lack, I don't

849
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: feel like I need a rush to the next thing.

850
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I am putting up walls against

851
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 2: the good things. I feel like everything around me is enough,

852
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: all my needs are met. And my way to that feeling,

853
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: which I'm so grateful for and love, was through tiny joys.

854
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: It was through kind of seducing myself a little bit

855
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: romanticizing myself, learning how to turn myself on and bring

856
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: myself a smile with absolutely nothing, you know, not with

857
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: another person, not with something tangible or in front of

858
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: me or an opportunity. It was going outside and taking

859
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: deep breaths and feeling the beautiful glow of sunshine hitting

860
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: my face, closing my eyes and seeing the glow of orange,

861
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: or feeling the warmth in the center of my forehead

862
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: or on my neck or chest, and just saying, my God,

863
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: that beauty makes it all make sense, you know, being

864
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: able to be present in nature, gardening really activated that

865
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: in me, or sometimes just lighting an incense, buying myself flowers,

866
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: you know, creating joy for yourself. It's not about the

867
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: big announcements or the performances. It's about how do I

868
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 2: keep that little oven that's inside of me burning At

869
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: old times. It is not always going to be a raging,

870
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: crackling fire. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's just going to

871
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 2: be that barely lit candle flame that I'm trying to

872
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 2: keep on. But it's about feeding that personal fire with

873
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: whatever makes you smile. The things that make me smile,

874
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: our beauty, our sunshine, are drawing sometimes with my sun,

875
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 2: creating a flower arrangement, rearranging things in my home, you know,

876
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 2: closing my eyes and listening to a great mix, dancing

877
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 2: and dancing and dancing around my house, opening up all

878
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: the windows in my house. And that always feels like

879
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: not only does it feel like enough, it feels like

880
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: such a privilege. It feels like such a privilege to

881
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 2: feel the things so deeply.

882
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: So, DEBI, how are you hoping that people engage with

883
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: in What do you hope they get from living in wisdom?

884
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: I hope from living in wisdom, you know, you'll really

885
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: get permission to incorporate and integrate all the aspects of

886
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: what your unique human experience has been, if it's been

887
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 2: one that has had some complex trauma, you know, which,

888
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: as everyone knows listening to this show and your expertise,

889
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 2: it's not just maybe one big thing that happened to

890
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 2: you for some of us, for a lot of us,

891
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: it is a lot of constant things that have happened

892
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: to us. And so I think my book is really

893
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: dedicated to people who have had experiences like that. I

894
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: think this book is for people that have had a

895
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 2: lot of those kinds of challenges but also find themselves

896
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 2: wanting to keep their hearts wide open, wanting to find

897
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: a way to serve, wanting to find a way to

898
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: make all of these experiences useful, for those that have

899
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 2: been on a path maybe of being a wounded healer,

900
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: or want to understand themselves more. I really wrote this

901
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: book and the way I kind of structured it was

902
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: for people that you know, maybe a lot like I

903
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 2: was over intellectualizers. You have a lot of knowledge. You've

904
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: read the books right like you may have been in therapy.

905
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: You may have read other self help books. You may

906
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: have deep knowing. You know where the pain lies, you

907
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: know what to call it. You're clear on all what

908
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 2: the attachment, you know all the different attachment systems are.

909
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, your life still doesn't feel like

910
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: it's changing. You're not necessarily seeing the truth and the

911
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 2: result of all this work that you've been bringing into

912
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: your brain, yet in the life that you're living. This

913
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: book is about integrating all of that and bringing it

914
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: into your body, bringing it into your heart, making it useful,

915
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: making the pain of your life useful for you, and

916
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: allowing you to transcend it. And I do that, of course,

917
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: through some storytelling, through guidance, and then through a lot

918
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: of practices. And I hope that everyone that uses this

919
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: book it'll become, you know, this dog eared companion. You'll

920
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: read it, but then you'll keep coming back to it.

921
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 2: You'll keep using it as a resource for meditation, for

922
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: somatic practice, for you know, learning about essential oils and

923
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 2: maudras and journal prompts, and how to make affirmations that

924
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 2: really empower your personal life. But it is about you

925
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 2: becoming your healer. You know something I try to let

926
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 2: a lot of people know when I'm either leading a

927
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 2: retreat or working one on one with clients is we're

928
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 2: going to get really deep. But I am not your healer.

929
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: You cannot project on me that I am here to

930
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: save you and I'm the reason that you're going to

931
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: get to the other side of whatever it is. I

932
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: am a healer, studied and practiced. I am here to

933
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: light the torch so you can see yourself more clearly.

934
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 2: But it all rests within you and your own heart.

935
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: And I hope that this book gives people more access

936
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: to the truth of their heart, to that extra reservoir

937
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: of strength that really sits inside of us, and permission

938
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: to deeply recover from what may have happened or not

939
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: happened in your life.

940
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: So where can people find their copy? Debbie? What is

941
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: the book's website? In any websites are a social channels

942
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: you'd like to share?

943
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: So this book is available everywhere officially April twenty second.

944
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 2: I also did the audible, which I'm really excited about.

945
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: I love using my voice so you can listen to

946
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: the audiobook. You can get the book anywhere that you

947
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: like to buy your books, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble. Please

948
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: join me. I will be on tour very soon. I

949
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 2: can't wait to meet everybody as I'm working with this book.

950
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: You can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com,

951
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,760
Speaker 2: Forward slash Book, and also of course my ig at

952
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: Debbie Brown Beautiful.

953
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: We'll be shut in. We do that in the show notes.

954
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: Thank you for spending some more time with us today, Debbie.

955
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

956
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Doctor Joy. It is always a

957
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: privilege and a pleasure to be with you. Thank you

958
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 2: for your work, and thank you for having me.

959
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Debbie was able to join us again today.

960
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

961
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: So learn more about her or to grab a copy

962
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: of Living in Wisdom. Be sure to visit the show

963
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four eight.

964
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: Did you know? You can leave us a voicemail with

965
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: your questions for the podcast. If you have movies or

966
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: books you like to suggest for us to review, drop

967
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: us a message at Memo dot FM slash Therapy for

968
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

969
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

970
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

971
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This

972
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indy Chubhu and Tyree

973
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: rush An. Was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all

974
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

975
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

976
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: Take good care,