WEBVTT - The JFK Assassination: A New Clue, Never Before Revealed (with David Reuben) 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.480 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.840 CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:09.559 in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.680 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:17.799 our adversaries. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.760 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:23.560 theories large and small. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:24.720 Could they be true? 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:26.280 Or are we being manipulated? 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.880 This is mission implausible? 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.599 All right, guys, I think we've now worked together long 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.120 enough that we can get to the issue that is 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:37.720 the one I most wanted. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.519 To talk to you about, the great white whale. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.440 When people say CIA and conspiracy theories, it's actually kind 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.159 of weird. We haven't done the big one. Where did 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.879 Peanut Eminem? No, that's not it. I love Eminem's are 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.160 good pratsol Eminem's I enjoyed, but I'm against them morally. No, 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.200 we're talking about did you guys kill JFK? 0:00:59.480 --> 0:00:59.600 Well? 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.200 I actually I think the jfk assassination thing is far 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.280 bigger than just did the CIA did it? Because there's 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.240 views that it could have been the Cuba, as it 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.600 could have been the Russians. It could have been the mafia. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:10.600 Fux Clay, it could have been the mafia. Like it 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.520 is like the mother of all conspiracy theories. 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.600 So in CIA, are there people who show up as 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.839 new employees and they're like, where are the files? 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:20.000 Like? 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.840 How is it talked about within CIA? 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:24.080 That's a good question. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.320 I mostly people joke about it, don't they. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.280 Yeah, oh, I found we're. 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.960 Very focused on collecting foreign intelligence. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.080 Now and not looking at past successes. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:35.360 Yeah. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:37.320 You know, we're too screwed up to be able to 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.440 keep a secret like that for that long. 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.119 All right, so today and we should tell our listeners 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.120 we're going to revisit I mean, to be honest, we 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.360 could do every episode about the JFK assassination and probably 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:50.960 have more listeners, to be honest with you, not the 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:51.800 same listeners. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.200 So what's interesting to me is the JFK assassination theories. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.440 It's very American. I mean, Richard hoff Staider famously wrote 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.960 The Paranoid dial in American Politics, and that talks about 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.960 how we've always loved these kind of conspiracy theories because 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.960 our country was built on a distrust of elites is 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.519 built into the system. 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.400 And in other countries in the world, though they just 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.120 do kill people. They do kill people. 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.840 Well, this episode is cool because we've never done this before. 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.000 But we've all got together in the same room over 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.040 at John Stearn's house in LA and we had a 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.600 special guest. So, John Stern, why don't you tell us 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:27.840 who our special guest is. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.200 You're about to audibly meet my uncle David Rubin. Let's 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.800 cut to the live recording in front of a studio 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.920 audience of four members of my family and three dogs. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.760 Now and Jerry drank all of John's booze. That's that's 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:48.079 what I remember about that event. Well, this week's episode 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.520 of Mission and Plasmo is a little bit different. We 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.880 are in person for the first time. Jerry and I 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.160 are in Los Angeles at the home of our producer, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.440 John Stern, and he's bringing a special guest to us 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.640 to talk to today. And we have a little bit 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.800 of an audience, and we're drinking John's booze, and so 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.400 it may take us a little longer to get to 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:10.320 the to get to where we're going, but bear with us. 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.800 You gotta talk a lot about the JFK assassination. What 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.280 is your particular fascination and insight to this. I mean, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.440 you're more than just casual jfk assassination observers. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.440 Right well, I have still had I have green stains 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.120 on my knee from the Grassy. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:30.720 Knoll, but it's just in an area that you're particularly 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:32.799 interested in talking about, is that right? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:33.000 Well? 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.200 I think people who listen to the podcasts will understand 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.080 we are tend to be skeptical of conspiracy theories, and 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.880 jfk assassination theory is one of the great conspiracy theories 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.120 of all times, and so we tend to be nervous 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:45.680 about digging down too deeply in. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:46.240 The rabbit hole. 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.560 But there is a, you know, an important CIA connection. 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.920 One of the early defectors to the CIA you're in, Nsenko, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.840 came to the United States and told the story of 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.840 being the person who handled the files for the Harvey 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.600 Oswald when he was in Moscow. And of course at 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.000 the time there was a concern when Kennedy was shot, 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 were the Russians involved? Where the Russians involved with the Cubans. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.640 All the conspiracy theories, they can't all be right because 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.720 a lot of them conflict, but they can all be wrong. 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.039 So I should introduce who David Rubin is. He's currently 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.760 a private investigator, but this is at the beginning of 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.520 his career. David, could you back us up and just 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.680 tell us the different jobs you've had. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.560 Or I started in law enforcement in Chicago for the 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.720 Special Prosecutions Unit of the State's Attorney's Office. It was 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.520 a brand new unit by a brand new State's Attorney, 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.760 Bernard Carey, following a big scandal of a black panther 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.440 shooting with the old regime. Then I got hired by 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:48.080 San Francisco to start a special investigations unit again. Then 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.760 I got hired by Oakland, City of Oakland to form 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:55.320 the first police Review Board. Then I left there and 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:57.760 became a private consultant and private investigator. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.159 The story we're about to hear, i've met I ever 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:01.479 heard it from any other source. 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.040 I've never read it, and I don't think. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:04.600 It's the answer. 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.920 I think if it's true, it's a piece of the 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.680 puzzle that might spurse some questions. And you said you 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.400 started as a newbie in Chicago, and as a newbe 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.120 you and your partner had to do the job of 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.200 going to Joliet State Prison once a month. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.560 Is that right? When you work, especially in a new 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.880 investigative unit in a local jurisdiction, you get a lot 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.880 of letters from inmates. Cook County Jail was one of 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.279 our big sources. Of course, Juliet State Penitentiary was another 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.840 big source. And if everybody in state prison or federal 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.360 penitentiaries are innocent, if you ask them, and they all 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.000 provide very detailed letters to tell you why they're innocent, 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.120 so that they could be given forgiveness. What they have 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.039 a committee didn't do that they didn't do because they're 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:55.479 all indicent. And as a new investigator, one of my 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.000 early assignments was, I got all those letters and I 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.760 we've going to Joe when letters have come in from 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.680 inmates saying we got a bunch of crimes that could 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.040 solve for you if you could get us out of here. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.960 Of course, and of course ninety nine point nine percent 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.160 of these things were nonsense and we're just feeble attempts 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.479 by inmates to try and swing a deal. Every once 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.360 in a while, I get a little tidbit I might 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.480 help you with some kind of crime, So you went 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.640 along with it, and I'd get a stack on my 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.640 desk of letters, and my partner and I would do 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:29.840 the interviews with the inmates to see what they had. 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.160 How do they choose who gets these things? And is 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.240 there squabbles between organizations? 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:39.120 Ever back in the day, there were always squabbles the 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:44.560 federal agencies and the local agencies. I'm hoping that has 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:50.239 ceased to be beautiful. They still they still squabble. Okay, gee, gentlemen, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.120 I shocked to hear that. I mean literally, you would 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.480 investigate the same case. And I mean I remember one 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.400 particular case where literally guns were drawn by the federal 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.400 agents and local and coming around the corner, there's the 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.599 same building under the same investigation. It was lucky nothing disaster, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.520 which occur. So there's one letter. So a letter comes in. Correct, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.560 a letter comes in and an inmate states that he 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.200 has information about the Kennedy assassination. So this is nineteen 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.280 seventy four, so nine or ten years after the assassination. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.680 So kind of interesting to read something like that. It 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.000 beats the local I'm minisova a couple of robberies around 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.760 the corner. Letters. So I go and interview this particular 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.880 in it and he gets a story that he had 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.400 had a cell mat that was involved in friends with 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.120 the Jack Ruby connection. And Ruby was from Chicago. He 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:51.120 was a local club owner, a fringe mobster. Actually was 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.320 friends with Gene Connon. So Jack Ruby and I'm just 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.680 his real name was Rubinstein, Yes, Rubinstein, exactly. You go. 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.240 So Jack Ruby was a owned a couple of sort 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.200 of bars, strip clubs in Dallas, sort of one of 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.680 these people that was on the fringe of society. And 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:07.720 he was somebody. 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.920 It was either day after the second day after when 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.120 the police were moving Lee Harvey Oswald to a new facility, 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.200 to a new jail. They moved him through an area 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.480 where there's a lot of national news cameras and and 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.880 Jack Ruby essentially just came out of the crowd with 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.480 a gun and shot them in the stomach and killed him. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.000 And it was the first time there's ever been a 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.080 murder on national television. 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.040 In the long run, what ended upapping Jack Ruby, He 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.960 died in prison. He had he got sick cancer in prison. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.880 But he never talked, never talked. He never talked, which. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.480 Adds to conspiracies, right of course, Well he had nothing 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:43.080 to say. 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:47.160 Well, I think that I was mad and I killed him, right, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:48.760 Well that was. 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:55.240 That was that he idolized JFK and he was so 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:01.440 horrified and depressed and angry that he did this spontaneous act. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.880 That's right, And he never applied. Somebody put it up 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.440 to him to get rid of the Harby Oswald to 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.720 protect like another person behind him or anything. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.640 And one of the big questions ever was how is 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.800 it possible in such a huge setting with all of 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.280 the police and everybody's there and cameras when you're moving 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.440 the guy to prison or whatever, that security could be 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.440 so laxed to let a guy come up directly to 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:25.720 the assassin issue. 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.880 Part of the answer to that, which came out at 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.640 some point was that he was connected and had friends 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.480 in the police department. He had a gun ferment, which 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.800 in Texas you send him two Superman comics and you 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:37.680 get a gun from it. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.680 And security couldn't have been that good if they let 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.080 all these guys with those big cameras. 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:44.120 The media was all over the. 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.320 Place, right, they were well known and open. It wasn't 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.839 like a super high security. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:51.720 And people know him. I mean, people are hey Jack, 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.200 I mean people were on a first nine basis from 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.480 the police department. With that, he was kind of a 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:58.920 I think you put it that way, John, he was 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.360 a fringe guy around whatever, and he probably needed police contexts, 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.880 maybe corrupt contexts for his clubs. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.040 You know, probably give them tidbits of information. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.319 Yeah, you know, he'd give him something so that they 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.040 would look the other way in a permit or or whatever. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.960 So that was then, and prior to that, he was 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.080 from Chicago. He was a thug as a kid. 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.520 It's important to know at this stage and the story JFK. 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.680 Even though he was assassinated in Dallas. Originally that parade 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.160 route was going to be in Chicago, but they moved 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:29.880 it to Dallas. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.400 So he gave me information that the inmate was friends 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.120 with the Ruby's brother or cousin the first time he 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.160 told me the story his brother brother. So basically, the 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.760 inmate told us that Jack Ruby's brother had rented a 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:47.280 short term rental along the parade the proposed parade route 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.800 in Chicago, which was probably Michigan Avenue or State Streets 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.240 or one of the main drags there. So we had 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.600 some tidbits and I don't recall exactly what we were able 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.480 to verify, but we verified certain aspects of that, like 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.400 the story or the relative or the effect of that 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.600 was the parade route, but we've verified enough to keep 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.480 us kind of interested. So he'd have you come back 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.040 and he'd give you more information. Yeah, pretty much, or 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.080 we'd say, well that checked out. And he was very 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.680 proud of himself, and he thought, okay, well, you know 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.880 who knows we needed to report this to our supervisor 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.839 because a had interesting tenbits that may be worth following up. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.720 And we directed because you know, it was kind of unique. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.079 We reported directly to the states attorneys. But he's former 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.320 at FI, remember, and so he thought that was interesting 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.839 and he said, right, let me call some of my 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.800 old friends. And you called me back in at one 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.280 point and said at b I will take care of this. 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.360 They they're interested, they'll follow up on this. You're off 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.160 that casse. I mean, well, it wasn't even a case really, 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:50.959 it was kind of an inquiry. I don't even know 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.040 if there had been a case file. Establishment. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.079 You're following, you're following the clues and leads and well 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:57.120 down that road. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.440 Those days you're working with you know, you call him pformance. 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.480 On some level. There are different types of informants, and 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.000 for the sake of discussion, he was an informant about 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.320 information that was potentially worth following up on. 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.480 So they said, don't go down that rabbit hole. 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.520 Right pretty much, And anyways, it was like, if that's true, 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.760 that's bigger than we are or you are, and again 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.000 I'm twenty four years old. Whatever, this is beyond you 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.880 and we'll turn it over to the bureau. As we 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.280 discussed earlier, locals and fans didn't get along real well. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.080 But my boss was former FBI and I was so 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.679 far down the totem pole that it wasn't my position to say, well, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.640 you're kidding, boss, this is great, this is a great 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.840 case for us to follow up on. You know. It 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:47.280 was like, okay, well here you go. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.959 Well, even from the beginning again I'm reading. 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:51.360 This book on Judd to Hoover. 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.520 Hoover was very interested in, you know, very quickly saying 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.640 that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and cutting it 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.120 down because he knew from decades of trying to protect 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.080 the Bureau and then what the Bureau covered, that these 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.400 political sort of issues could get out a hand and 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.240 they would start to rebound against the FBI. So the 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.319 more they started to question, like why didn't they look 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.760 into Lee Harvey Asswold when he traveled to Mexico to 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.520 the Cuban embassy of the Russian embassy, and he was 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.880 in Russian why didn't you do and so he was 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.959 very interested in sort of quickly coming to the conclusion. 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.160 So very quickly they wrote like a four hundred page 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.920 thing which then President Johnson, who followed up after Kennedy 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.480 was killed, decided to create a commission, the Warrent Commission, 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.160 to look into this correct And at the time Johnson 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.160 and Hoover were talking to each other, and both of 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:39.760 them are trying to say, let's do this as quickly 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:40.280 as possible. 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:40.959 Is keep this down. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:41.839 I agree with you. 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.599 It looks like it's Lee Harvey Ailswald was trying to 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.040 keep all these other questions out, but of course that 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:48.080 couldn't happen. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.440 And as much as they tried to. 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.240 Do that, more and more questions came in regarding the Russians, 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:55.439 regarding Jack. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:56.479 Ruby's and. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.880 Kennedy right, and THEBA want yes Epians to protect themselves. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:06.080 And if you remember, Hoover's boss was Robert Kennedy, also 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.200 in his early thirties at the time, is the attorney. 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.320 And there was no love loss. They hated each other, yeap, 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.600 So I go back to Joliet to tell my quote informant, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.920 for lack of a better term, that the affair is 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.200 going to look into this, and you should be under 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.440 the circumstances. You would think an informant would be very 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.840 happy for something like that, because it means he's been 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.920 taken seriously exactly. But when I went there, I was 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.720 surprised to find out that he had been killed in prison. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:41.360 Oh oh, just in that in those few weeks I 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.120 remember if it was a weight weeks or maybe a 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:45.800 month and a half, we'll say it was for weeks 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:47.600 for this for the sake of the discussion. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.360 And did you find out who killed him? 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.280 Or why? Or I mean not why? Prison? Prison fight? 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.160 That was all I got. It was a prison fight. 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.400 Of course, this happened a lot in prisons. That there 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.160 would be, you know, a guy with a kN It 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.560 could be over turf, it could be over politics, internally, gangs, 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.120 it could be a million things. But the timing was odd, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.440 certainly in hindsight when you look back at it, it 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:15.280 was interesting timing. Now I was going to tell him 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:16.880 we were done anyway. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.280 Obviously that would make you concern and sort of look 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.960 into things. Did you on your own over the over 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.920 the coming years looking to Jack Ruby and connections. So 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.280 this is potentially suggesting that Jack Ruby may be more involved. 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.120 Traditionally thought that it might have actually been involved working well. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.840 And again Ruby was Chicago, so you had a connection 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.960 with Ruby in Chicago and a parade route and Kennedy 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.160 in the same time period. Ruby. Going back, I think 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.720 we were talking earlier that there were all these theories 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:52.160 of course that the Mob assassinated Kennedy. The Jim Kanna connection. 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:53.640 Wasn't he Chicago too? 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.880 Oh yeah, he was the godfather in Chicago and he 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.920 was a well known hit. I mean I tailed Jim 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.520 kind of a number of His girlfriend was sleeping with 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.000 Kennedy and gan Conna, and so one of the theories 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.520 was that gian Conna took Kennedy out over the girl, 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:10.680 over the girlfriend. 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.480 It was crazy kind of like so I know, also 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.800 Kennedy and the CIA were working with the Mob to 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.080 assassinate Castro in Cuba. 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.440 Somebody else, No, that was gan Conna. There was that theory. 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.240 But again Ruby, I think he hadn't worked for Giancanna 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.160 at one point early in his career. They were both 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:34.080 part of that old Mob the outfit we used to 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.160 call in Chicago. That might have been a local term. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.720 But there was a connection. I mean, it wasn't a 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:43.640 far reach to see the connection between Ruby, Chicago, the 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.640 Kennedy Parade route potentially communist. I mean, it wasn't like, oh, well, 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.720 that doesn't make any sense. It wasn't Witchital, Kansas or Newark, 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.120 New Jersey with Chicago with the connection to Kennedy and Ruby. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.640 So that what made it a little more interesting than 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.600 just oh that is the possible thing. 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.400 Well, the other part of the riddle here is if 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:07.480 you connect these imaginary dots that the FBI or someone 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.679 someone in the federal government had this witness killed because 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.600 it was exposing. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:17.800 What time great analogy. But so you guys are the 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.840 conspiracy theory experts. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.720 My question to you is, given this information, what what 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.960 could you theorize really happened? 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.000 Given this new information, The. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.359 Dots aren't theoretical, it's the connections between them that we 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.399 can only guess it. So you've got the dots, but 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.119 how you connect them and whether they connect, Well, let 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:37.879 me ask a question this epical public was. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.680 There ever any public thing or authors or journalists who 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.440 dug in if that I ever recalled. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.440 That's why it's a story that I've only heard from 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:46.400 him and nowhere else. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.159 Will this story even more interested if in the coming 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.400 weeks after this is air that he's killed. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.480 One. We can only hope this show. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.200 Yeah, I was really a pretty. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.000 Mad pleasure. I'm in John Stearn's home. 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:08.480 What's the address again? 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.640 And I'll be living here for a cemetery. 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.320 He's got vicious dogs, but he. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:16.560 Does one story. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.200 Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.320 we come back, probably Uncle be able to tell us 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:22.000 who killed get it? 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.840 Where is that one? I mean, you know, you look 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.119 back at it and you can project a lot of 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.720 possibilities here. I mean, this guy could have run full 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.840 of crap. Maybe he had a cellmate that knew Jack 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.600 Ruby's family, and the rest of it was made up. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.880 The thing that made it more interesting if you look 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.560 back at it, was that Kennedy was supposedly going to 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.320 be Integra and the parade room and the parade also, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.400 just like in Dallas, back in those days, parade roots 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.760 and presidents were public. They were publishing front page of 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.480 newspapers so that the public could go and watch president. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.760 Do you remember more about the cellmate, because I mean, 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:03.960 obviously that's the key. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.680 Like who was that he was, where did he go? 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.320 Who's he was? He was a non entity, and that's 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.080 what kind of made it problematic. He had a link 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.760 that he was a Chicago win so that made it 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.840 a little more credible. A lot of guys from the 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.120 Mob were in Joliet, and so there was a link 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:23.760 between the Chicago Mob and inmates into Chicago. So informiation 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.800 could have easily gone between those two sources. Jerry and 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:28.120 John separately. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.040 What is your prevailing theory about the Kennedy assassination? 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.160 There's so much, there's so much to it. 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.520 I think, probably similar to Jerry is we tend to 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:42.000 believe the simplest explanation, right. So there were professional investigators, 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.760