1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 3: Could they be true? 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Or are we being manipulated? 11 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible? 12 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 4: All right, guys, I think we've now worked together long 13 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 4: enough that we can get to the issue that is 14 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 4: the one I most wanted. 15 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: To talk to you about, the great white whale. 16 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 4: When people say CIA and conspiracy theories, it's actually kind 17 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 4: of weird. We haven't done the big one. Where did 18 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 4: Peanut Eminem? No, that's not it. I love Eminem's are 19 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 4: good pratsol Eminem's I enjoyed, but I'm against them morally. No, 20 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 4: we're talking about did you guys kill JFK? 21 00:00:59,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 5: Well? 22 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 6: I actually I think the jfk assassination thing is far 23 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 6: bigger than just did the CIA did it? Because there's 24 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 6: views that it could have been the Cuba, as it 25 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 6: could have been the Russians. It could have been the mafia. 26 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 6: Fux Clay, it could have been the mafia. Like it 27 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 6: is like the mother of all conspiracy theories. 28 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 4: So in CIA, are there people who show up as 29 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 4: new employees and they're like, where are the files? 30 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Like? 31 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 4: How is it talked about within CIA? 32 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: That's a good question. 33 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: I mostly people joke about it, don't they. 34 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, I found we're. 35 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: Very focused on collecting foreign intelligence. 36 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 4: Now and not looking at past successes. 37 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 38 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: You know, we're too screwed up to be able to 39 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: keep a secret like that for that long. 40 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 4: All right, so today and we should tell our listeners 41 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 4: we're going to revisit I mean, to be honest, we 42 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 4: could do every episode about the JFK assassination and probably 43 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 4: have more listeners, to be honest with you, not the 44 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 4: same listeners. 45 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: So what's interesting to me is the JFK assassination theories. 46 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: It's very American. I mean, Richard hoff Staider famously wrote 47 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: The Paranoid dial in American Politics, and that talks about 48 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: how we've always loved these kind of conspiracy theories because 49 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: our country was built on a distrust of elites is 50 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: built into the system. 51 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 4: And in other countries in the world, though they just 52 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 4: do kill people. They do kill people. 53 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: Well, this episode is cool because we've never done this before. 54 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: But we've all got together in the same room over 55 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: at John Stearn's house in LA and we had a 56 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: special guest. So, John Stern, why don't you tell us 57 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: who our special guest is. 58 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 7: You're about to audibly meet my uncle David Rubin. Let's 59 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 7: cut to the live recording in front of a studio 60 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 7: audience of four members of my family and three dogs. 61 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 6: Now and Jerry drank all of John's booze. That's that's 62 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 6: what I remember about that event. Well, this week's episode 63 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 6: of Mission and Plasmo is a little bit different. We 64 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 6: are in person for the first time. Jerry and I 65 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 6: are in Los Angeles at the home of our producer, 66 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 6: John Stern, and he's bringing a special guest to us 67 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 6: to talk to today. And we have a little bit 68 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 6: of an audience, and we're drinking John's booze, and so 69 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 6: it may take us a little longer to get to 70 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 6: the to get to where we're going, but bear with us. 71 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 7: You gotta talk a lot about the JFK assassination. What 72 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 7: is your particular fascination and insight to this. I mean, 73 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 7: you're more than just casual jfk assassination observers. 74 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: Right well, I have still had I have green stains 75 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: on my knee from the Grassy. 76 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 7: Knoll, but it's just in an area that you're particularly 77 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 7: interested in talking about, is that right? 78 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 5: Well? 79 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 8: I think people who listen to the podcasts will understand 80 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 8: we are tend to be skeptical of conspiracy theories, and 81 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 8: jfk assassination theory is one of the great conspiracy theories 82 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 8: of all times, and so we tend to be nervous 83 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 8: about digging down too deeply in. 84 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: The rabbit hole. 85 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 8: But there is a, you know, an important CIA connection. 86 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 8: One of the early defectors to the CIA you're in, Nsenko, 87 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 8: came to the United States and told the story of 88 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 8: being the person who handled the files for the Harvey 89 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 8: Oswald when he was in Moscow. And of course at 90 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 8: the time there was a concern when Kennedy was shot, 91 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 8: were the Russians involved? Where the Russians involved with the Cubans. 92 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: All the conspiracy theories, they can't all be right because 93 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: a lot of them conflict, but they can all be wrong. 94 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 7: So I should introduce who David Rubin is. He's currently 95 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 7: a private investigator, but this is at the beginning of 96 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 7: his career. David, could you back us up and just 97 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 7: tell us the different jobs you've had. 98 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 3: Or I started in law enforcement in Chicago for the 99 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 3: Special Prosecutions Unit of the State's Attorney's Office. It was 100 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: a brand new unit by a brand new State's Attorney, 101 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: Bernard Carey, following a big scandal of a black panther 102 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: shooting with the old regime. Then I got hired by 103 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: San Francisco to start a special investigations unit again. Then 104 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: I got hired by Oakland, City of Oakland to form 105 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: the first police Review Board. Then I left there and 106 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: became a private consultant and private investigator. 107 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 7: The story we're about to hear, i've met I ever 108 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 7: heard it from any other source. 109 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: I've never read it, and I don't think. 110 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: It's the answer. 111 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 7: I think if it's true, it's a piece of the 112 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 7: puzzle that might spurse some questions. And you said you 113 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 7: started as a newbie in Chicago, and as a newbe 114 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 7: you and your partner had to do the job of 115 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 7: going to Joliet State Prison once a month. 116 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: Is that right? When you work, especially in a new 117 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: investigative unit in a local jurisdiction, you get a lot 118 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: of letters from inmates. Cook County Jail was one of 119 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: our big sources. Of course, Juliet State Penitentiary was another 120 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 3: big source. And if everybody in state prison or federal 121 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 3: penitentiaries are innocent, if you ask them, and they all 122 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 3: provide very detailed letters to tell you why they're innocent, 123 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: so that they could be given forgiveness. What they have 124 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: a committee didn't do that they didn't do because they're 125 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: all indicent. And as a new investigator, one of my 126 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 3: early assignments was, I got all those letters and I 127 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: we've going to Joe when letters have come in from 128 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: inmates saying we got a bunch of crimes that could 129 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 3: solve for you if you could get us out of here. 130 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: Of course, and of course ninety nine point nine percent 131 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: of these things were nonsense and we're just feeble attempts 132 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 3: by inmates to try and swing a deal. Every once 133 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 3: in a while, I get a little tidbit I might 134 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: help you with some kind of crime, So you went 135 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: along with it, and I'd get a stack on my 136 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 3: desk of letters, and my partner and I would do 137 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 3: the interviews with the inmates to see what they had. 138 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 5: How do they choose who gets these things? And is 139 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 5: there squabbles between organizations? 140 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: Ever back in the day, there were always squabbles the 141 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: federal agencies and the local agencies. I'm hoping that has 142 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:50,239 Speaker 3: ceased to be beautiful. They still they still squabble. Okay, gee, gentlemen, 143 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: I shocked to hear that. I mean literally, you would 144 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 3: investigate the same case. And I mean I remember one 145 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: particular case where literally guns were drawn by the federal 146 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: agents and local and coming around the corner, there's the 147 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: same building under the same investigation. It was lucky nothing disaster, 148 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: which occur. So there's one letter. So a letter comes in. Correct, 149 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: a letter comes in and an inmate states that he 150 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: has information about the Kennedy assassination. So this is nineteen 151 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: seventy four, so nine or ten years after the assassination. 152 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: So kind of interesting to read something like that. It 153 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: beats the local I'm minisova a couple of robberies around 154 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: the corner. Letters. So I go and interview this particular 155 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: in it and he gets a story that he had 156 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: had a cell mat that was involved in friends with 157 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: the Jack Ruby connection. And Ruby was from Chicago. He 158 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: was a local club owner, a fringe mobster. Actually was 159 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: friends with Gene Connon. So Jack Ruby and I'm just 160 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: his real name was Rubinstein, Yes, Rubinstein, exactly. You go. 161 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 5: So Jack Ruby was a owned a couple of sort 162 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 5: of bars, strip clubs in Dallas, sort of one of 163 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 5: these people that was on the fringe of society. And 164 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 5: he was somebody. 165 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 8: It was either day after the second day after when 166 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 8: the police were moving Lee Harvey Oswald to a new facility, 167 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 8: to a new jail. They moved him through an area 168 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 8: where there's a lot of national news cameras and and 169 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 8: Jack Ruby essentially just came out of the crowd with 170 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 8: a gun and shot them in the stomach and killed him. 171 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 8: And it was the first time there's ever been a 172 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 8: murder on national television. 173 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 7: In the long run, what ended upapping Jack Ruby, He 174 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 7: died in prison. He had he got sick cancer in prison. 175 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 3: But he never talked, never talked. He never talked, which. 176 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 8: Adds to conspiracies, right of course, Well he had nothing 177 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 8: to say. 178 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think that I was mad and I killed him, right, 179 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: Well that was. 180 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: That was that he idolized JFK and he was so 181 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 3: horrified and depressed and angry that he did this spontaneous act. 182 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: That's right, And he never applied. Somebody put it up 183 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: to him to get rid of the Harby Oswald to 184 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: protect like another person behind him or anything. 185 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 8: And one of the big questions ever was how is 186 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 8: it possible in such a huge setting with all of 187 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 8: the police and everybody's there and cameras when you're moving 188 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 8: the guy to prison or whatever, that security could be 189 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 8: so laxed to let a guy come up directly to 190 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 8: the assassin issue. 191 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: Part of the answer to that, which came out at 192 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: some point was that he was connected and had friends 193 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 3: in the police department. He had a gun ferment, which 194 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 3: in Texas you send him two Superman comics and you 195 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 3: get a gun from it. 196 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: And security couldn't have been that good if they let 197 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: all these guys with those big cameras. 198 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: The media was all over the. 199 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: Place, right, they were well known and open. It wasn't 200 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 2: like a super high security. 201 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: And people know him. I mean, people are hey Jack, 202 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: I mean people were on a first nine basis from 203 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: the police department. With that, he was kind of a 204 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 3: I think you put it that way, John, he was 205 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: a fringe guy around whatever, and he probably needed police contexts, 206 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: maybe corrupt contexts for his clubs. 207 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 5: You know, probably give them tidbits of information. 208 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, he'd give him something so that they 209 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: would look the other way in a permit or or whatever. 210 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: So that was then, and prior to that, he was 211 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 3: from Chicago. He was a thug as a kid. 212 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 7: It's important to know at this stage and the story JFK. 213 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 7: Even though he was assassinated in Dallas. Originally that parade 214 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 7: route was going to be in Chicago, but they moved 215 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 7: it to Dallas. 216 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 3: So he gave me information that the inmate was friends 217 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: with the Ruby's brother or cousin the first time he 218 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: told me the story his brother brother. So basically, the 219 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: inmate told us that Jack Ruby's brother had rented a 220 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: short term rental along the parade the proposed parade route 221 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: in Chicago, which was probably Michigan Avenue or State Streets 222 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: or one of the main drags there. So we had 223 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: some tidbits and I don't recall exactly what we were able 224 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: to verify, but we verified certain aspects of that, like 225 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: the story or the relative or the effect of that 226 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: was the parade route, but we've verified enough to keep 227 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: us kind of interested. So he'd have you come back 228 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: and he'd give you more information. Yeah, pretty much, or 229 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 3: we'd say, well that checked out. And he was very 230 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: proud of himself, and he thought, okay, well, you know 231 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: who knows we needed to report this to our supervisor 232 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 3: because a had interesting tenbits that may be worth following up. 233 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: And we directed because you know, it was kind of unique. 234 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: We reported directly to the states attorneys. But he's former 235 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: at FI, remember, and so he thought that was interesting 236 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: and he said, right, let me call some of my 237 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: old friends. And you called me back in at one 238 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: point and said at b I will take care of this. 239 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 3: They they're interested, they'll follow up on this. You're off 240 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: that casse. I mean, well, it wasn't even a case really, 241 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 3: it was kind of an inquiry. I don't even know 242 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: if there had been a case file. Establishment. 243 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 5: You're following, you're following the clues and leads and well 244 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 5: down that road. 245 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 3: Those days you're working with you know, you call him pformance. 246 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: On some level. There are different types of informants, and 247 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: for the sake of discussion, he was an informant about 248 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: information that was potentially worth following up on. 249 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: So they said, don't go down that rabbit hole. 250 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: Right pretty much, And anyways, it was like, if that's true, 251 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: that's bigger than we are or you are, and again 252 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: I'm twenty four years old. Whatever, this is beyond you 253 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 3: and we'll turn it over to the bureau. As we 254 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: discussed earlier, locals and fans didn't get along real well. 255 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: But my boss was former FBI and I was so 256 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 3: far down the totem pole that it wasn't my position to say, well, 257 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: you're kidding, boss, this is great, this is a great 258 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 3: case for us to follow up on. You know. It 259 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 3: was like, okay, well here you go. 260 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 5: Well, even from the beginning again I'm reading. 261 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: This book on Judd to Hoover. 262 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 8: Hoover was very interested in, you know, very quickly saying 263 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 8: that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and cutting it 264 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 8: down because he knew from decades of trying to protect 265 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 8: the Bureau and then what the Bureau covered, that these 266 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 8: political sort of issues could get out a hand and 267 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 8: they would start to rebound against the FBI. So the 268 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 8: more they started to question, like why didn't they look 269 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 8: into Lee Harvey Asswold when he traveled to Mexico to 270 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 8: the Cuban embassy of the Russian embassy, and he was 271 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 8: in Russian why didn't you do and so he was 272 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 8: very interested in sort of quickly coming to the conclusion. 273 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 8: So very quickly they wrote like a four hundred page 274 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 8: thing which then President Johnson, who followed up after Kennedy 275 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 8: was killed, decided to create a commission, the Warrent Commission, 276 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 8: to look into this correct And at the time Johnson 277 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 8: and Hoover were talking to each other, and both of 278 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 8: them are trying to say, let's do this as quickly 279 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 8: as possible. 280 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 2: Is keep this down. 281 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 3: I agree with you. 282 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 8: It looks like it's Lee Harvey Ailswald was trying to 283 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 8: keep all these other questions out, but of course that 284 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 8: couldn't happen. 285 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 5: And as much as they tried to. 286 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 8: Do that, more and more questions came in regarding the Russians, 287 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 8: regarding Jack. 288 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,479 Speaker 2: Ruby's and. 289 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 8: Kennedy right, and THEBA want yes Epians to protect themselves. 290 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 8: And if you remember, Hoover's boss was Robert Kennedy, also 291 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 8: in his early thirties at the time, is the attorney. 292 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 3: And there was no love loss. They hated each other, yeap, 293 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: So I go back to Joliet to tell my quote informant, 294 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 3: for lack of a better term, that the affair is 295 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 3: going to look into this, and you should be under 296 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: the circumstances. You would think an informant would be very 297 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: happy for something like that, because it means he's been 298 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: taken seriously exactly. But when I went there, I was 299 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: surprised to find out that he had been killed in prison. 300 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: Oh oh, just in that in those few weeks I 301 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 3: remember if it was a weight weeks or maybe a 302 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: month and a half, we'll say it was for weeks 303 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: for this for the sake of the discussion. 304 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 5: And did you find out who killed him? 305 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: Or why? Or I mean not why? Prison? Prison fight? 306 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: That was all I got. It was a prison fight. 307 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 3: Of course, this happened a lot in prisons. That there 308 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 3: would be, you know, a guy with a kN It 309 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 3: could be over turf, it could be over politics, internally, gangs, 310 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: it could be a million things. But the timing was odd, 311 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: certainly in hindsight when you look back at it, it 312 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 3: was interesting timing. Now I was going to tell him 313 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: we were done anyway. 314 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 8: Obviously that would make you concern and sort of look 315 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 8: into things. Did you on your own over the over 316 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 8: the coming years looking to Jack Ruby and connections. So 317 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 8: this is potentially suggesting that Jack Ruby may be more involved. 318 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 8: Traditionally thought that it might have actually been involved working well. 319 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: And again Ruby was Chicago, so you had a connection 320 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: with Ruby in Chicago and a parade route and Kennedy 321 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: in the same time period. Ruby. Going back, I think 322 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: we were talking earlier that there were all these theories 323 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 3: of course that the Mob assassinated Kennedy. The Jim Kanna connection. 324 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 5: Wasn't he Chicago too? 325 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he was the godfather in Chicago and he 326 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 3: was a well known hit. I mean I tailed Jim 327 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: kind of a number of His girlfriend was sleeping with 328 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: Kennedy and gan Conna, and so one of the theories 329 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 3: was that gian Conna took Kennedy out over the girl, 330 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: over the girlfriend. 331 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 8: It was crazy kind of like so I know, also 332 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 8: Kennedy and the CIA were working with the Mob to 333 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 8: assassinate Castro in Cuba. 334 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: Somebody else, No, that was gan Conna. There was that theory. 335 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: But again Ruby, I think he hadn't worked for Giancanna 336 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: at one point early in his career. They were both 337 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: part of that old Mob the outfit we used to 338 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: call in Chicago. That might have been a local term. 339 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: But there was a connection. I mean, it wasn't a 340 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: far reach to see the connection between Ruby, Chicago, the 341 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: Kennedy Parade route potentially communist. I mean, it wasn't like, oh, well, 342 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 3: that doesn't make any sense. It wasn't Witchital, Kansas or Newark, 343 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: New Jersey with Chicago with the connection to Kennedy and Ruby. 344 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: So that what made it a little more interesting than 345 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: just oh that is the possible thing. 346 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 7: Well, the other part of the riddle here is if 347 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 7: you connect these imaginary dots that the FBI or someone 348 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 7: someone in the federal government had this witness killed because 349 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 7: it was exposing. 350 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: What time great analogy. But so you guys are the 351 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: conspiracy theory experts. 352 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 7: My question to you is, given this information, what what 353 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 7: could you theorize really happened? 354 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: Given this new information, The. 355 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: Dots aren't theoretical, it's the connections between them that we 356 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: can only guess it. So you've got the dots, but 357 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: how you connect them and whether they connect, Well, let 358 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: me ask a question this epical public was. 359 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 8: There ever any public thing or authors or journalists who 360 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 8: dug in if that I ever recalled. 361 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 7: That's why it's a story that I've only heard from 362 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 7: him and nowhere else. 363 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 8: Will this story even more interested if in the coming 364 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 8: weeks after this is air that he's killed. 365 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: One. We can only hope this show. 366 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was really a pretty. 367 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: Mad pleasure. I'm in John Stearn's home. 368 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 5: What's the address again? 369 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 3: And I'll be living here for a cemetery. 370 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: He's got vicious dogs, but he. 371 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: Does one story. 372 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 7: Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when 373 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 7: we come back, probably Uncle be able to tell us 374 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 7: who killed get it? 375 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 3: Where is that one? I mean, you know, you look 376 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 3: back at it and you can project a lot of 377 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: possibilities here. I mean, this guy could have run full 378 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: of crap. Maybe he had a cellmate that knew Jack 379 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: Ruby's family, and the rest of it was made up. 380 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 3: The thing that made it more interesting if you look 381 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 3: back at it, was that Kennedy was supposedly going to 382 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 3: be Integra and the parade room and the parade also, 383 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 3: just like in Dallas, back in those days, parade roots 384 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: and presidents were public. They were publishing front page of 385 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 3: newspapers so that the public could go and watch president. 386 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 8: Do you remember more about the cellmate, because I mean, 387 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 8: obviously that's the key. 388 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 3: Like who was that he was, where did he go? 389 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: Who's he was? He was a non entity, and that's 390 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: what kind of made it problematic. He had a link 391 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 3: that he was a Chicago win so that made it 392 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: a little more credible. A lot of guys from the 393 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 3: Mob were in Joliet, and so there was a link 394 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 3: between the Chicago Mob and inmates into Chicago. So informiation 395 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: could have easily gone between those two sources. Jerry and 396 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 3: John separately. 397 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 7: What is your prevailing theory about the Kennedy assassination? 398 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: There's so much, there's so much to it. 399 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 8: I think, probably similar to Jerry is we tend to 400 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 8: believe the simplest explanation, right. So there were professional investigators, 401 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 8: there was the FBI, the Warrent Commission. Lots of people 402 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 8: have looked at this, and even the people who come 403 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 8: up with all sorts of theories, they are less likely 404 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 8: than the direct theory that a crazy guy who had 405 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 8: connections that were worth looking into in Russia and Cuba 406 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 8: and Mexico and all the sorts of places decided to 407 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 8: kill the president. 408 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 5: And just a few years ago, reread the War and 409 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 5: Commission stuff. 410 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 8: And this was after there had been the movie, and 411 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 8: there's been a number of other books and stories of 412 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 8: complaining about the War and Commission that they didn't look 413 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 8: into this. 414 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: It did seem to cover a lot of those things. 415 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 5: The War Commission seemed to cover a lot of the things. 416 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: There was pretty terrible that. 417 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 8: People said, oh, they didn't look into this, and they 418 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 8: did look at that they and I thought they did. 419 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. I get concerned when people get wrapped around the 420 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: axel On minutia. There's sort of two things that I'm 421 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: concerned about it. This one is these detailed descriptions of 422 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: ballistics on the bullet couldn't. 423 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 9: Have ballistics is a very inexacic science, and understanding how 424 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 9: a bullet travels is something that's extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, 425 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 9: to predict. 426 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that the CIA always seems 427 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: to get involved. I think if there was a Winer conspiracy, 428 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: it would seem to me that it would be one 429 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: of two things. It was one Castro was looking to 430 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: kill Kennedy, because Kennedy was looking to kill absolutely right. 431 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: And we do know that the shooter spent time in 432 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 2: Mexico and the other is that the Soviets were humiliated 433 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: after the standoff, and so this is a guy, the 434 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald, who spent time in Russia, and to be frank, 435 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: the Soviets did have a long history of killing people 436 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: they didn't like. Now it is a stretch killing the 437 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: President the United States, But it's not beyond the pale 438 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 2: that Lee Harvey Oswald would have thought, in meeting with 439 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 2: a case officer that that's what they wanted, or that 440 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: he was doing them a favor. It doesn't always have 441 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: to be I want you to do X. It's often 442 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: could be he was trying to show off. But I 443 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: think the fact that he had links to the KGB 444 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: and lived there, I think if he lived there, it's 445 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: almost impossible for him not to have had links. So 446 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 2: I'm open to those possibilities, but I don't think they've 447 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 2: been proven. 448 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 8: Lee Harveaz was a marine, right a sharpshooter, sharp shooters 449 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 8: or whatever you call at the time, was in Japan 450 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 8: and then eventually left the Marines and defected to Russia. 451 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 8: Made his way to Moscow. The KGB did question him there, 452 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 8: married a Russian woman, and the. 453 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 5: KGB then sent him to Belarus. To mintzk which is 454 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 5: a republic inside Russia. 455 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 8: Married a Bellerussian woman, Marina, and then eventually he was 456 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 8: working as a tool of die person there for some 457 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 8: period of time and maybe even as much of a 458 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 8: couple of years, tried to change his citizenship for being 459 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 8: an American to being a Russian and eventually made his 460 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 8: way back to the United States and the KGB part 461 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 8: of it. Obviously, after the shooting, the concern was, oh, 462 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 8: my god, the guy who shot Kennedy had spent time 463 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 8: in Russia and clearly had connections with the Russian intelligence. 464 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 5: Services to KGB at the time. 465 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 8: And he had traveled to Mexico and been seen visiting 466 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 8: the Russian embassy at the Quban Embassy while he was 467 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 8: in Mexico, and the FBI was aware of this and 468 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 8: were investigating. They hadn't talked to him yet, but they 469 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 8: had investigated this prior to the shooting, so when the 470 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 8: shooting came up, they were like, ooh, we've been paying 471 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 8: attention to this guy, not because we thought he'd be 472 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 8: an assassin, but because we thought he was tied to 473 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 8: the Communist Party. If you remember, at the time, they 474 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 8: were very focused on communists and then similar to this 475 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 8: time a Russian defector, and then you're in Asenko defects 476 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 8: the United States and says. 477 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 5: Oh, by the way, among the other things, I'm telling. 478 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 8: You, I was on the internal service to KGB, which 479 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 8: looked at foreigners inside Russia, and I looked at the 480 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 8: file of Lejavey Oswald and we talked to him, but 481 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 8: we thought he was a low level nobody and sent 482 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 8: him off to Minsk and didn't pay much attention to him. 483 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 8: But of course then there was a big concern afterwards 484 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 8: that like, did the Russians send this guy to us 485 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 8: here to tell us this story to try to deflect 486 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 8: us from interest. So all of a sudden, you know, 487 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 8: the Russian Kremlin says, holy shit, our guy killed the 488 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 8: president of the United States. They're gonna realize we were 489 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 8: behind it. 490 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 5: Send this defector off to tell the story. 491 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 3: That we had nothing to do with it. 492 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 8: And so that went on and on, and it's a 493 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 8: really sad story part of the CIA, because this guy 494 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 8: was eventually brought down to a special prison cell that 495 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 8: was created just for him to be to be interrogated 496 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 8: for several years and given drugs and all sorts of things, 497 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 8: and he never confessed, and there was lots of internal 498 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 8: CIA studies back and forth different parts of the CIA, 499 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 8: and Head of Counterintelligence James Ingleton, was convinced that Mosenko 500 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 8: was a false defector came here to try to deflect us, 501 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 8: and other people thought the opposite. Eventually, over lots of 502 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 8: internal fights over a number of years, the CIA came 503 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 8: to the conclusion which the FBI had come to long before, 504 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 8: that Nosenko was a real defector and that Russians likely 505 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 8: did not have anything to do with the Kennedy assassination. 506 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: As far as the I mean, how things work in 507 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: real life. There's one incident I can think of, and 508 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go into specific details, but something 509 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: violent happened, and it happened to one of our adversaries 510 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: in a country. And what came out of this violent 511 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: event was we were able to get some intelligence out 512 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: of it. Right, something was stolen from one of our 513 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: adversaries that would be helpful to us. Oh, well, that's interesting. 514 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: And one of my guys comes to me afterwards and says, hey, man, 515 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: I was out drinking with some of our buddies, like 516 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, and we were drinking, and 517 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 2: I said, wouldn't it be funny if somebody did this? 518 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: And they all laughed and we said yeah. He said, oh, 519 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: it would be like something out of a novel, and 520 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 2: then we just moved on. And then exactly what he 521 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: said happened. And basically there was a break in in 522 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: this one place and the computers were stolen. And he's like, 523 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: I didn't order him to it. I just had a 524 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: couple of drinks and I was just. 525 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 3: Like, I didn't do nothing. I didn't, you know. 526 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 2: And they obviously afterwards they went, that's sort of interesting, 527 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: Maybe we should do that. And they probably also thought, 528 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: was he hinting to us that we should do it? 529 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: And he was not right. He didn't even think of 530 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 2: it after that. And so when I think of Lee 531 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald, I also want under if he didn't talk 532 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: to one of his handlers, or when he went into 533 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,719 Speaker 2: the walked into the embassy in Mexico to the Soviet embassy, 534 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: if somebody didn't said that fucking Kennedy, you know, bah, 535 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 2: and he's thinking, hey, I can be a hero. That 536 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they did it, But I think there's 537 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: a lot of gray areas in there. 538 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 5: There's other theories. 539 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 2: There's many theories. 540 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 8: I don't know all of them, but we have a friend, 541 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 8: longtime senior career CIA officer worked in all kinds of places, 542 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 8: very accomplished. It's a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but 543 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 8: also very bright who was really dug into this. He 544 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 8: would have to explain it because I don't know all 545 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 8: the deal, but he believes there was a generation of 546 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 8: CI officers were really angry at Kennedy for not taking 547 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 8: on Communism the Soviets properly, and especially after the Bay 548 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 8: of Pigs where they were sort of hung out to dry, 549 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 8: and therefore may have been involved in something related to 550 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 8: the assassination. I don't know anything about it. I don't 551 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 8: buy it necessarily, but this is another one of the 552 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 8: theories that can He was hated by the hardcore right 553 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 8: wing people of the National security space, so it. 554 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: Wasn't CIA, it was CIA officers working on their own 555 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: I think that's what. 556 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 8: I'd have to have a listen to that Mission Impossible 557 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 8: movie Rogue Office. 558 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: I think John and I would agree that if it 559 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 2: was a CIA operation, it is almost impossible inside of 560 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 2: the CII to keep something like that secret. I mean 561 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: there would be highly classified operations that I was not 562 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: read into that. I don't even know how. I didn't 563 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: know the details, but I kind of knew him from 564 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: hanging around in the coffee shop, or you know, you 565 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: walk in on a meeting and the dots and duncan 566 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: do yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And I have heard in 567 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: thirty three years, not a peep out of like we 568 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 2: might have been involved, or again it was a bit 569 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: before our time, But I never heard anything like that 570 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 2: any what about you? 571 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 8: Impossible to imagine that they could be held that secret 572 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 8: for that long on their deathbed, wouldn't say anything like 573 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 8: I mean, I worked in for thirty years, I had 574 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 8: any inkling who about it. 575 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 3: I'd like it. 576 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 5: I'd try to make some cash off right now. 577 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 7: Now we still might figure out who killed Kennedy, but 578 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 7: we have. 579 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: To have a short break first. 580 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 3: No, I know, no one cares about my theory. I do. 581 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 3: I've developed this as a result of working with you guys. 582 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: I don't like it now, I don't like it. 583 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 5: I've learned so much from. 584 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 7: So I don't have a theory as to why leave 585 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 7: Harvey Oswald killed him, Whether it was the Cubans, the mafia, 586 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 7: the Russians, the CIA, whatever, he was connected to someone. 587 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 7: But I do have a theory that at some point 588 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 7: the federal government figured out who was behind it, maybe 589 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 7: even a very loose way. But who would get blamed 590 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 7: for being behind it? Maybe there's a Russians, maybe there's 591 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 7: a Cubans, there's a mob, right, whoever it was, it 592 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 7: is better to keep that hidden than to allow that 593 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 7: to come out, because then there would have to be 594 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 7: a response. And the only way there couldn't be a 595 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 7: response that's required is if it was a lone gunman. 596 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 7: If it was the CIA, well all hell breaks. If 597 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 7: it was a mob, I mean war between the government 598 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 7: and the mob at that point. If it was Russia 599 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 7: or Cuba, then it's World War three. This dovetails with 600 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 7: your story about the informant being killed by I'll just 601 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 7: say the FBI, because it was necessary to keep whoever 602 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 7: was behind this under wraps. 603 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: So let me throw this stchet from someone who has 604 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: done conspiracies, not obviously like this, But. 605 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 10: You know you didn't kill Kennedy, No, but you were 606 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 10: telling yeah. 607 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: So your operation is only as good as the weakest link. 608 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: So if insert whoever it is wants to kill Kennedy, 609 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: if who they're going to use, if they're vector, even 610 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: if he's not the only guy, let's run with the 611 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: grassi and old theory. He's gonna get he's gonna get caught. 612 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: And Lee Harvey Oswald, by all accounts, is not a 613 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: guy who's going to keep his mouth shut. 614 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 3: That's for Jack Ruby, because. 615 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: Well, now you're getting into a pretty byzantine conspiracy. 616 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 5: But if you assume institutions have incentives, is what you're saying. 617 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 5: You're saying each institutions and incentively, if we thought it 618 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 5: was the Russians that might start a war, if we 619 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 5: thought it was the mob, it might start And so 620 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 5: the FBI is saying, Okay, we don't want to do 621 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 5: this because we don't want to start a war with 622 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 5: the mob, and c I just wanted to just want 623 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 5: to start a war with the Russians or whatever. 624 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 8: That's giving institutions almost like human brains and they're thinking 625 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 8: this thing through. 626 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 5: But there's a lot of people institutions. 627 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 8: And they don't always think the same way. And so 628 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 8: there's all kinds of people at low levels who are 629 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 8: getting this kind of stuff, and you're assuming that somehow 630 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 8: they think the same way, Like, yes, if the leadership 631 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 8: got together and said we don't want that to come out, 632 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 8: but I'm I don't care. 633 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: If there's a way with the Russians. 634 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 5: This is exciting ship, I'm gonna like tell. 635 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: Everybody, but I'm gonna tell it. I'm gonna get drunk 636 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: and tell my money. So well, who would do that? 637 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 7: This is the flaw that you guys find with almost 638 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 7: one hundred percent of the conspiracy theories, which is there 639 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 7: are just too many people that would have had to 640 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 7: keep it secret and it would have. 641 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: Come out right. 642 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 7: And Jerry's always saying Occam's razor to all of these things, 643 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 7: and it's it's hard to disagree, although once in a 644 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 7: while it's. 645 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: A is a rule of thumb, which doesn't mean it always. 646 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 8: Well, the problem is there's probably pieces of this that 647 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 8: don't hold together that people don't want to talk about. 648 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: It leads people down roads and stuff. 649 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 8: So so yeah, I think there's probably more story than 650 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 8: the clean story. But that whether that means it's a 651 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 8: massive conspiracy? 652 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: So is it? 653 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: Is it? 654 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: You've spent a lot of time with the police, right, 655 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: if you were gonna kill Kennedy, would you again again? 656 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: Would you would you would you put somebody in a 657 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: tower where they don't have, you know, a perfect shot. 658 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: They got to get it just right, or would you 659 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: put it? There's like other ways of doing it much 660 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: more ways were like you're more likely to get away absolutely, 661 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: like maybe get a better rifle, maybe get a better shot, 662 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: maybe get out, you know. 663 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 3: The poison theory, you know, put a bomb in the road. 664 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: There's a lot of things you can do. And if 665 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: I were going to do it, I get a better rifle, 666 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: I'd probably get it. If I was wanting to pancy, 667 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: I'd get a better better, better pantsy than Oswald I 668 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: would put. You know, I would be thinking of like 669 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: how am I getting How is he going to get away? Well, 670 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: because you want to get. 671 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: Away, Yeah, that's the key is you make a plan, 672 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 3: but the plan involves how I get away with it. 673 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 3: But of course the prisoners are all full of guys, 674 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: we're idiots. 675 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 8: Well, yeah, it's funny, like we've seen a number of 676 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 8: recently Indians, the Turks and the Russians now in Europe 677 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 8: had like tried to hire killers to take out people 678 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 8: for them. There's this interesting thing that a lot of 679 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 8: people try to reach out to find hitmen. And I 680 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 8: think law enforcement has been like incredibly successful because essentially 681 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 8: there are no hitmen. People come looking for hitmen, there's 682 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 8: no such thing. But they people start looking for him, 683 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 8: and then they come across law enforcements thing and they're like, 684 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 8: let's watch this guy. 685 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: The Russian guy who killed the dissident in Berlin. His getaway. 686 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 2: He was on a freaking bicycle. So he rode by 687 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 2: and he shot and killed the guy. But everybody saw 688 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: it was in broad daylight, and you know what, his 689 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: bicycle could not run a police guard right. 690 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 3: Went through. 691 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: Well I don't know, I mean thinking that this is 692 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: a paid Russian. 693 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 8: But Whattin did then is arrested, A bunch of Americans 694 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 8: held them prisoner and then swapped to get the guy. 695 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 7: There's always one step ahead that guy and the the. 696 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: Indians didn't do a very good job. They got caught 697 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 2: and in Canada and Canada and on other than Michael Flynn, 698 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: the National Security Advisor for a couple of days did 699 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: talk to he's. 700 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 3: A frequent target of this podcast. 701 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 2: Well he did. He did talk about trying to kidnap 702 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 2: this he today gulan. 703 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 8: Turkish guy in Pennsylvania that awan the head of Turkey 704 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,439 Speaker 8: believes did a big coup against him. 705 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: You know, even Michael Flynn when he was on the 706 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 2: inside and he was going after al Qaida and Isis 707 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: and Iraq, he was effective and efficient and he made 708 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 2: things happen. And well, these guys were his guys, were 709 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 2: his guys were. But you know, he came up with 710 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: a shitty planned to try to kidnap a guy out 711 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 2: of the Poconos and didn't work out. For at least 712 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: he said he did. John and I never got caught. 713 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: By the way, we're just putting that out. 714 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 8: It helps not to actually do it. 715 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: But we never got I never got you never got arrested. 716 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 3: Right. 717 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: I don't think he solved it, But this is this 718 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: is great. 719 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 3: Oh it's interesting and now fifty some years later, but 720 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 3: you look back at you you know, maybe something to it, 721 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 3: but again just another theory. 722 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: And running operations. I will say that the world is 723 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 2: full of weird coincidences, right, absolutely, It's like coincidences happen 724 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: all the time. We're taught we do surveillance detection. 725 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 8: Once you're out, you're moving, let's you're driving your car 726 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 8: to see a phone's following and you're chosen a route 727 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 8: that you believe you can manipulate someone who might be 728 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 8: tracking you and see. 729 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: What they're there. You're like hyper aware. 730 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 8: You look around and you realize there's all kinds of 731 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 8: shit that's like there's guys sitting. 732 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 5: In cars and people in places. Also you're like, oh 733 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 5: my god, what that doesn't make sense? 734 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 2: Why are they doing this? Like why did this part? 735 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 5: Like all kinds of stuff that doesn't make sense. You 736 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 5: got to work your way through that and find a 737 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 5: way to continue on to it. It's all kinds of stuff. 738 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 3: Also, I think we all found out an investigation, it's 739 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 3: usually the simple answer. Yeah. In the end, we talked 740 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 3: about these conspiracies and these complicated ways of looking at things, 741 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 3: And in the end, I most investigation goes, of course. 742 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: He did yeah, the butler. 743 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 3: The butler did it. The butler did it. 744 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: I remember one time I broke a rule at CIA. 745 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: I was supposed to meet this guy and we're gonna 746 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 2: meet in a certain place, and he was early and 747 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 2: I bumped into him on the street, and we probably 748 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: shouldn't have said anything to each other, right, pretending we 749 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: didn't know each other, but he didn't, and he looked 750 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 2: at me and said, can we please please just go 751 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: for a drink. And now this is in Berlin, where 752 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 2: there are fifteen hundred bars and restaurants and everything like that, 753 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 2: and he says, I just want to have a drink, 754 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, just the two USTs, like the old days. 755 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: And I'm like, we're both clean. Who's gonna know, right, 756 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, twenty minutes, I'll meet you at a 757 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: certain place at a certain time, like wasn't far away. 758 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 2: And so we went off and we went into this 759 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: bacrner of an Irish pub in places a few people in. 760 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: It was really big and dark, and we shared a 761 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 2: beer and talked, and then he went back and then 762 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 2: we did our correct meeting. The next day, I went 763 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 2: into work and another officer came over to me and said, 764 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 2: how was your guinness? 765 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 6: Oh? 766 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 3: And I'm like. 767 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 2: And he said, I saw you sitting over in the 768 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: corner over there. And I said, was that so and so? 769 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah it was. I said, where were you? 770 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: He says, I was in another corner with another thing. 771 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: I was meeting with selling. Oh my god, we had 772 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: two meetings in the same place. Today they are like 773 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: twelve hundred. 774 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 7: Places in the Cold War would have ended sooner up 775 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 7: that was the only really dark Irish Yeah. 776 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 2: Well, Dave, it was incredible to hear your story. I'd 777 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 2: love to hear more of your stories. We've we've crossed 778 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 2: in different places. 779 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 8: Your stories about how different agencies work and don't work 780 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 8: together resonates with us around. I want to thank you 781 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 8: very much much for spending some time with us, and 782 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 8: it's also nice to be together for a change. 783 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 3: Not Worthy. 784 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 7: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher, 785 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 7: and Jonathan Stern. 786 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 787 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 7: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 788 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 7: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.