WEBVTT - The Decline of Local News is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.956 Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. When you're trying 0:00:24.956 --> 0:00:26.916 to do journalism, then you have to kind of run 0:00:26.916 --> 0:00:29.236 out and make sure you can pay your reporters that 0:00:29.316 --> 0:00:34.036 week or next month. That's a tough thing. For some 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:37.436 years now, local news organizations have been feeling the pinch. 0:00:37.836 --> 0:00:41.636 Their audiences have moved online, and advertising revenue, which used 0:00:41.676 --> 0:00:44.396 to pay most of the costs of the journalism, has 0:00:44.436 --> 0:00:47.236 gone elsewhere. A lot of those times are going to 0:00:47.356 --> 0:00:51.556 the so called duopoly of Facebook and Google. Bell kightening 0:00:51.716 --> 0:00:55.236 and budget cutting have reduced the quantity and quality of 0:00:55.276 --> 0:00:59.436 local reporting, and all over the country news operations have 0:00:59.556 --> 0:01:02.836 been closing up shop. This isn't just a problem for 0:01:02.956 --> 0:01:08.156 journalists themselves. Margaret Sullivan thinks there's something much larger at 0:01:08.236 --> 0:01:12.516 risk when reporters who expose wrongdoing by government and business 0:01:12.876 --> 0:01:16.676 don't have the backing of successful news organizations. You know, 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.516 it's a lot easier to ignore a gadfly citizen, as 0:01:20.556 --> 0:01:24.236 these folks might be seen, rather than a big institution 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:29.876 that's powerful. Democracy depends on citizens paying attention. Strong local 0:01:29.916 --> 0:01:34.436 news operations help citizens stay in form and hold officials accountable. 0:01:35.116 --> 0:01:40.996 Without good local journalism, corruption flourishes and citizens become more vulnerable. 0:01:42.036 --> 0:01:46.836 Margaret Sullivan is ringing alarm bells, and she's hopeful. I 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:53.876 think that the decline of local news is solvable. Margaret 0:01:53.876 --> 0:01:57.036 Sullivan is the media columnist for The Washington Post and 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:00.196 formerly the public editor of The New York Times. Her 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:03.676 new book is called Ghosting the News, Local Journalism and 0:02:03.756 --> 0:02:07.716 the Crisis of American Democracy. I talked with her about 0:02:07.756 --> 0:02:11.396 the scale and serious the collapse of local news and 0:02:11.436 --> 0:02:14.836 what can be done to fix it. Well, Margaret, thanks 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:19.036 for joining us. Unsolvable and let's talk first about the 0:02:19.076 --> 0:02:22.356 dimensions of this problem. There's no question that we are 0:02:22.476 --> 0:02:26.716 losing local newspapers. I think something close to two thousand 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:28.636 if I read that right in your book, have gone 0:02:28.636 --> 0:02:31.676 out of business in the past fifteen years. And the 0:02:31.716 --> 0:02:35.676 ones that remain aren't exactly thriving. And of course that 0:02:35.716 --> 0:02:38.436 matters a lot to us journalists. Those are our friends. 0:02:38.516 --> 0:02:41.756 That's the system we came up in. But why does 0:02:41.796 --> 0:02:44.996 this matter so much? As you say in the title 0:02:45.036 --> 0:02:50.516 of your book, to American democracy? It matters because while 0:02:50.636 --> 0:02:54.836 newspapers are certainly not the only way that people are 0:02:54.876 --> 0:02:57.956 informed about their communities and their public officials they have 0:02:58.156 --> 0:03:03.396 been over time, perhaps the key way that people get 0:03:03.436 --> 0:03:08.276 information about how their local governments are functioning and how 0:03:08.356 --> 0:03:13.356 communities have a base of facts from which to operate. 0:03:13.396 --> 0:03:15.316 They may disagree on the facts or what to do 0:03:15.396 --> 0:03:18.796 about them, but they sort of have this shared substance 0:03:18.916 --> 0:03:24.236 that makes sense to everybody. As that has dwindled away 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:28.796 largely because of the dissolution of the underlying business model 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:34.076 based on print advertising, largely, people are less informed, people 0:03:34.236 --> 0:03:40.196 are less civically engaged, and it hurts the underlying the 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:43.756 underpinnings of the way our society and our government is 0:03:43.756 --> 0:03:47.756 supposed to function. So it's primarily an accountability problem, right 0:03:47.796 --> 0:03:52.356 If simply put, if the press isn't watching government officials 0:03:52.396 --> 0:03:56.236 can get away with more corruption, more mismanagement. I think 0:03:56.276 --> 0:03:59.396 you said it exactly right, Jacob. It is primarily an 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:03.076 accountability problem. But I see another aspect to a two 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:05.916 which I just like to mention, which is has nothing 0:04:05.956 --> 0:04:10.036 to do with really watchdog journalism or that accountability, which 0:04:10.196 --> 0:04:14.516 is that newspapers have traditionally been a way that communities 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:19.596 helped knit themselves together, whether it's about coverage of concerts 0:04:19.676 --> 0:04:23.796 or restaurants or theater or interesting people or obituaries. It's 0:04:23.836 --> 0:04:26.676 sort of a village square for the community. That has 0:04:26.716 --> 0:04:29.476 nothing to do with whether the town council or the 0:04:29.476 --> 0:04:33.396 city council is mismanaging your tax dollars. But it does 0:04:33.476 --> 0:04:36.876 have to do with sort of cohesion within the community. 0:04:37.116 --> 0:04:39.636 So it's both of those things and probably a bunch 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:41.956 of others too. But why is it important that it's 0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:47.956 news organizations versus you know, bloggers or people posting smartphone 0:04:48.036 --> 0:04:50.796 videos or tweeting about what's going on in their town 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:55.316 or community. Why isn't citizen journalism the replacement for all this? 0:04:56.276 --> 0:05:00.116 Citizen journalism, if that's what we want to call it, 0:05:00.196 --> 0:05:04.876 is part of the solution. One of the things it 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:09.116 can't do very well, though, is publicized to the same 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:12.596 degree that a front page headline or a big homepage 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:16.716 treatment can from the Chicago Tribune or the Sometimes, you know, 0:05:16.756 --> 0:05:20.556 it's a lot easier to ignore a gadfly citizen, as 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:24.236 these folks might be seen, rather than a big institution 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:28.276 that's powerful. This has now become a problem of democracy, 0:05:28.356 --> 0:05:30.196 and not just in the United States, of course, It's 0:05:30.516 --> 0:05:34.236 going on around the world. So the question is why 0:05:34.316 --> 0:05:36.956 is it happening? Is it mainly just that the ad 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:41.276 dollars that used to support local news now go mainly 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:44.676 to Google and Facebook. That's a huge part of it. 0:05:44.676 --> 0:05:47.116 It is, I would say, if you had to identify 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:50.396 one reason for this, it does have to do with advertising. 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:52.956 So you know, in the old days, which aren't that 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:57.716 long ago, the way newspapers supported themselves and their staffs 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:06.236 was sort of two thirds advertising and one third subscriptions. Now, interestingly, 0:06:06.276 --> 0:06:08.436 at places like the New York Times, which are doing 0:06:08.476 --> 0:06:11.396 well and are going to make it, they are able 0:06:11.436 --> 0:06:15.756 to get enough digital subscribers to you know, really support 0:06:15.836 --> 0:06:19.516 the business. But for local newspapers, including the big regionals, 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:23.996 there isn't enough, you know, there may not be enough 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:28.556 audience there to buy those subscriptions to make up for 0:06:28.596 --> 0:06:31.436 the loss of ad dollars. And the ad dollars went 0:06:31.476 --> 0:06:35.556 away in part because print faded so much and digital 0:06:35.556 --> 0:06:39.236 advertising never measured up in the way that we hoped 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:41.796 it would. You know, people talked about eventually when they 0:06:41.796 --> 0:06:45.116 figured it out, they started talking about print dollars and 0:06:45.196 --> 0:06:49.396 digital dimes. And that's the case. And also a lot 0:06:49.436 --> 0:06:51.996 of those dimes are going to the so called duopoly 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:55.916 of Facebook and Google, as you say so, Margaret. The 0:06:55.996 --> 0:06:59.156 top national news organizations seemed to be doing pretty well, 0:06:59.156 --> 0:07:00.436 the New York Times where it used to be the 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:02.876 public editor, or the Washington Post where you're the media 0:07:02.916 --> 0:07:06.996 critic now, but a few years ago things look pretty 0:07:07.076 --> 0:07:12.156 bleak for them too. So what can the next level 0:07:12.276 --> 0:07:17.836 of metropolitan news organizations learn from their turnaround? Their success? 0:07:17.996 --> 0:07:21.156 Because the Times in the Post are adding journalists and 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:25.516 increasing their journalistic footprint even as the papers and cities 0:07:25.516 --> 0:07:30.356 a little smaller than that are drastically shrinking. Absolutely right. 0:07:30.476 --> 0:07:34.196 And these are both interesting examples because both the New 0:07:34.276 --> 0:07:36.836 York Times and the Washington Post had some pretty rough 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:41.396 years and not so long ago, but they have started 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:46.876 concentrating on something new, not entirely new, but concentrating more 0:07:46.956 --> 0:07:52.516 deeply on digital subscribers, people who are going to pay 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:58.076 money to get their journalism. And so rather than concentrate 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:01.356 on you know, sort of this is the lay person's 0:08:01.396 --> 0:08:04.716 way to say it, but clicks. Rather than concentrate on clicks, 0:08:04.996 --> 0:08:08.476 which is a little bit more oriented towards the advertising 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:13.036 end of things, now the emphasis is on really deepening 0:08:13.076 --> 0:08:18.356 a loyalty to the audience, the readership, the view or 0:08:18.356 --> 0:08:20.836 whatever you want to call it so that there's this 0:08:20.996 --> 0:08:24.836 sense of, Yes, I really appreciate this work, and I'm 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:27.556 going to put it on a renewable thing on my 0:08:27.636 --> 0:08:30.436 credit card so that I keep getting the New York 0:08:30.436 --> 0:08:33.436 Times of the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal. It 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:36.516 is more challenging for the local and the regional outlets 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:39.196 because they have a smaller, you know, sort of universe 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:42.396 to appeal to. The Times in the Post and the 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:46.836 Wall Street Journal can you know, be marketing themselves really globally. 0:08:47.516 --> 0:08:52.476 The Buffalo News, the Chicago Tribune and sometimes probably aren't 0:08:52.516 --> 0:08:55.596 going to be able to do that because the content 0:08:55.756 --> 0:09:00.756 that they have that's that's different, that makes them indispensable 0:09:01.396 --> 0:09:04.636 is going to be local. Um. You know, So there's 0:09:04.716 --> 0:09:07.636 just you know, there's a there's a smaller sort of um, 0:09:08.076 --> 0:09:11.636 there's a smaller universe of possible subscribers out there. But 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:15.156 you know, the Boston Globe has made real progress on this, 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:18.476 The La Times has made real progress on this, and 0:09:19.076 --> 0:09:21.436 there is reason to hope. Don't they all just need 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:23.516 to get together in some way. I mean, on a a 0:09:23.756 --> 0:09:25.516 given day, I may want to read a story in 0:09:25.596 --> 0:09:28.556 Cleveland or in Buffalo, or in LA in Chicago, but 0:09:28.796 --> 0:09:30.836 I don't go to those sites often enough that it 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:33.356 would make sense for me, living in New York to 0:09:33.396 --> 0:09:36.796 subscribe to any of them. But I'd gladly pay for 0:09:36.836 --> 0:09:40.196 a speed pass that let me gave me access to 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:43.716 all newspapers in the country and shared the shared the 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:47.476 revenue with all of them. That seems like a good idea. 0:09:47.636 --> 0:09:52.116 I haven't seen that developed, but I think it has promise, 0:09:52.396 --> 0:09:54.716 and I know a lot of people would feel the 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:57.076 same way. It's like, I don't really want to subscribe to, 0:09:57.236 --> 0:10:00.956 you know, the Toledo Blade, but there's this story I 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:03.996 really want to read, so I'll use my past, you know. 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:07.476 I mean, I think that's worth exploring, and maybe it 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:11.236 has been explored. I have seen sort of the system 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:15.076 of micropayments, you know, you pay a tiny amount for 0:10:15.156 --> 0:10:17.076 this one story you want to read, sort of like 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:20.156 you would with a music app that has not seemed 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:23.156 to do well or be very helpful. Let's talk about 0:10:23.236 --> 0:10:25.876 some of the other solutions and things you talk about 0:10:25.916 --> 0:10:28.476 in the book. One that a lot of people are 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:34.196 very interested in is nonprofit models and philanthropic support. I 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:38.556 think one of the most successful new news organizations in 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:42.116 the country is a Texas Tribune, which is based in 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:46.756 Austin and probably covers government and politics in Texas better 0:10:46.836 --> 0:10:50.596 than the newspapers ever did in their heyday. And that's 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:54.556 a nonprofit. So is that kind of model the solution 0:10:54.636 --> 0:10:59.236 to it. It's a solution without a doubt. The Texas Tribune, 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:03.236 and now the Texas Tribune is working with pro Publica, 0:11:03.276 --> 0:11:06.916 which is another great digital investigative site that has more 0:11:06.916 --> 0:11:10.356 of a national point of view. And we do see 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:13.276 them in many other communities. There's the Voice of San Diego, 0:11:13.316 --> 0:11:17.436 there's Minpost in Minneapolis, the one I mentioned in Buffalo. 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:22.876 It is, you know, it is difficult to make them 0:11:22.956 --> 0:11:27.956 scale to the point that newspapers were able to, you know, 0:11:27.956 --> 0:11:32.756 to that level. I don't think that there probably will 0:11:32.836 --> 0:11:38.876 be the opportunity to put a nonprofit based on philanthropic 0:11:38.956 --> 0:11:43.836 or membership dollars in every small town that's lost a weekly. 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:48.156 So scale is a real problem and a real issue there. 0:11:48.476 --> 0:11:51.316 But where they do work, they're great, and they also 0:11:51.356 --> 0:11:54.076 tend to be more nimble and sometimes more aggressive, less 0:11:54.156 --> 0:11:58.036 hide bound, less willing to sort of cowtow to the 0:11:58.116 --> 0:12:01.596 local powers that be. They can really do some great work, 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:04.756 and they do it's good not to be dependent on advertising, 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:06.556 right You don't have to think what the big local 0:12:06.596 --> 0:12:08.716 advertiser is going to think about your story. I mean, 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:10.676 the money has to come from somewhere, but if it 0:12:10.716 --> 0:12:14.596 comes from donors and foundations who care about the community, 0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:16.756 it's less likely that any one of them is going 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:20.276 to try to exert a lot of control. Maybe. I mean, 0:12:20.556 --> 0:12:25.116 donors are human beings as well, and and sometimes in 0:12:25.156 --> 0:12:28.876 a community, the big donors are the same people that 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:32.716 you might want to write a big investigative piece about. So, 0:12:33.236 --> 0:12:35.076 you know, and are you going to pull your punches 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:37.956 because you don't want to mess with your you know, 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:42.316 your biggest contributor. It did. It certainly was the case 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:46.196 at newspapers and may still be that, you know, you 0:12:46.236 --> 0:12:48.756 didn't really want to get the biggest car dealership in 0:12:48.836 --> 0:12:52.596 town very mad at you because they were, you know, 0:12:52.716 --> 0:12:55.396 they were contributing so much to the bottom line. But 0:12:55.756 --> 0:13:00.116 there always was a real separation between advertising and editorial 0:13:00.436 --> 0:13:02.956 in Buffalo. We never saw an you know, for a 0:13:02.956 --> 0:13:06.036 long time, it would be unheard of for an advertising 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:09.076 salesman to you know, even be in the newsroom. Now 0:13:09.276 --> 0:13:13.436 I think there's you know, there's less of a separation 0:13:13.636 --> 0:13:17.516 between the money side and the journalism side. And I'm 0:13:17.556 --> 0:13:22.116 not suggesting that there's an integrity problem in these news organizations. 0:13:22.156 --> 0:13:25.276 I don't know of one, but I you know, I 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:27.876 think that's something that has to be thought about. Yeah, 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.436 I mean, what I've observed about the best of the nonprofits, 0:13:30.476 --> 0:13:34.516 the Texas Tribune and as you say, nationally ProPublica is 0:13:34.556 --> 0:13:37.916 that they're really entrepreneurial. So they managed to be both 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:41.876 nonprofit and be able to raise money and tax deductible money, 0:13:42.076 --> 0:13:47.636 but they also actually think like entrepreneurial businesses. That's great 0:13:47.956 --> 0:13:51.156 solution in a few cases, but that's very hard to scale. 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:53.556 It's very hard to have and as you say, compounded 0:13:53.596 --> 0:13:58.076 by the problem of smallness with these really local sites, 0:13:58.196 --> 0:14:01.036 you know, how can they be enterprising businesses and raise 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:05.236 philanthropic money and do their primary job of covering government 0:14:05.276 --> 0:14:08.636 and covering the news, right? I mean, I have talked 0:14:08.636 --> 0:14:14.236 with one founder of a nonprofit who told me that 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:18.796 they have had to fundraise to meet payroll at times, 0:14:18.956 --> 0:14:21.356 and that's pretty scary when you're trying to do journalism. 0:14:21.476 --> 0:14:22.916 Then you have to kind of run out and make 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:26.996 sure you can pay your reporters. That week or next month. 0:14:27.476 --> 0:14:30.716 That's a tough thing. But you know, speaking of the 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:35.076 entrepreneurial spirit that you mentioned, absolutely true. The other thing 0:14:35.116 --> 0:14:41.476 that is happening more of necessity is collaboration between news organizations. 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:45.876 You know. So now with state house coverage on the decline, 0:14:46.316 --> 0:14:53.036 there's an outfit in Pennsylvania called Spotlight PA that has 0:14:53.076 --> 0:14:56.236 gotten a bunch of different news organizations, not just newspapers, 0:14:56.276 --> 0:15:01.676 but broadcast and radio together to combine and produce state 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:04.876 house coverage that they can all use. These are places 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:07.756 that probably would have been you know, scoop happy with 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:10.316 each other trying to come pete in the past, and 0:15:10.396 --> 0:15:13.756 now they're trying to collaborate. It goes a little bit 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:18.356 against the journalistic DNA I think should be so nice 0:15:18.396 --> 0:15:20.876 to the guy that used to be your competitor. But 0:15:21.116 --> 0:15:23.956 I think that's really an important part of what has 0:15:23.996 --> 0:15:26.916 to happen, Margaret. People talk about the idea of giving 0:15:27.276 --> 0:15:31.316 news organizations an antitrust exemption, which I understand to mean 0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:33.756 that they'd be allowed to all get together or make 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:37.436 a deal among themselves and then say to Google and Facebook, 0:15:37.796 --> 0:15:40.836 here's the deal with all of us, or you get 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:43.756 a deal with none of us. It's like, you know, 0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:47.636 a union sort of for organizations in a way baseball 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:50.036 has an antitrust exemption. There are lots of examples of 0:15:50.076 --> 0:15:53.236 antitrust exemptions. Does that make sense to you, Yes, it does. 0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:55.036 I mean it actually has to do with sort of 0:15:55.076 --> 0:15:58.316 the power in numbers. Instead of just this little organization 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:01.876 trying to go up against these massive social media platforms 0:16:01.956 --> 0:16:09.156 or search engines, huge companies worldwide. It gives them some 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:13.196 some solidarity and some ability to get together. Yeah. I mean, 0:16:13.596 --> 0:16:16.116 Facebook and Google are always making all this noise about 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:18.916 how they want to support local journalism, and they're you know, 0:16:18.956 --> 0:16:22.156 they seem to feel kind of guilty about accidentally destroying it. 0:16:22.156 --> 0:16:24.516 They didn't destroy it on purpose, it was it was 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:28.836 a side effect of building their businesses. But did they 0:16:28.876 --> 0:16:31.956 And thinking again about philanthropic solutions, I mean, as they're 0:16:32.036 --> 0:16:35.316 separate from the idea of an antitrust exemption, you know, 0:16:35.436 --> 0:16:37.636 is there a way that they can be prevailed upon 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:41.476 to support all this journalism which they really need to exist. 0:16:41.836 --> 0:16:43.916 Google is a lot worse if all the newspapers go 0:16:43.956 --> 0:16:46.716 out of business, if they are forced to, they will 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.796 you know, the things that they've done that have been voluntary, 0:16:50.876 --> 0:16:58.996 which I think are useful, good and relatively small scale, 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:02.236 you know, have happened, you know, out of a sense 0:17:02.276 --> 0:17:05.196 of you know, kind of managing the pr around it, 0:17:05.236 --> 0:17:07.316 I think, and maybe wanting to do the right thing. 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:11.356 The Google News initiative has helped a bunch of different 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:15.716 newspapers figure out how to get digital subscriptions, and that's 0:17:15.836 --> 0:17:20.236 very positive. Facebook has changed its algorithms so that it 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:26.556 features local news more and does reimburse some of them more. 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:29.396 You know, I don't think it's at the point that's 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:32.636 going to save anything right now, Margaret, What about the 0:17:32.676 --> 0:17:35.196 idea of direct government support. I mean, that's an idea 0:17:35.236 --> 0:17:37.836 that we journalist sort have just hated, you know, a 0:17:37.876 --> 0:17:40.316 couple of decades ago, but there doesn't seem to be 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:43.676 a great alternative to it now. So the idea of 0:17:43.756 --> 0:17:47.076 direct government support is one that, as you say, you know, 0:17:47.196 --> 0:17:49.396 has been sort of a third rail for journalists. We 0:17:49.476 --> 0:17:52.956 just don't want to ever compromise our independence or our 0:17:53.116 --> 0:17:56.596 idea of our own independence by taking money directly from 0:17:56.636 --> 0:18:01.236 the government. But you know, I think and others are 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:04.396 beginning to think, because we're in a more desperate straits 0:18:04.476 --> 0:18:08.436 now that this is something that bears a closer and 0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:15.276 a deeper look. Nicholas Lemon, they Columbia Journalism School former 0:18:15.316 --> 0:18:18.876 dean who is the CEO of the publishing house that 0:18:18.916 --> 0:18:22.636 published my book, Columbia Global Reports, is farther along on 0:18:22.676 --> 0:18:27.276 this spectrum than i am. And he really believes that 0:18:27.436 --> 0:18:32.636 safeguards and guardrails can be built in so that independence 0:18:32.676 --> 0:18:35.796 would be preserved. It has to do with how it 0:18:35.876 --> 0:18:39.756 is set up and the extent to which there is 0:18:39.836 --> 0:18:44.236 true independence built in. At the Voice of America, the 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:48.916 Trump administration has really intruded there. It is worrisome. I 0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:53.916 mean there, you know, there's a political pointee who's just 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:57.676 been put in charge, replacing a woman named Amanda Bennett, 0:18:57.716 --> 0:19:01.156 who was the editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer, had a 0:19:01.276 --> 0:19:05.236 distinguished news career. You know, these are the kinds of 0:19:05.236 --> 0:19:08.516 things that can happen when there's government control. You go, 0:19:08.636 --> 0:19:10.916 you go, in a blink of an eye from journalism 0:19:10.916 --> 0:19:13.636 to propaganda. Looks like it's what's going to happen at 0:19:13.676 --> 0:19:16.556 Voice of America. Yes, so that's a real worry, and 0:19:16.596 --> 0:19:21.956 that's something that clearly needs to be foreseen and prevented. Yeah, So, 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:24.636 which of these solutions do you really want to place 0:19:24.676 --> 0:19:26.796 your bets on. I mean, this is an urgent problem. 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:31.556 We're losing local news organizations every week. So I'm well 0:19:31.596 --> 0:19:35.356 aware that this is a solutions oriented effort we're doing here, 0:19:35.476 --> 0:19:40.116 But I cannot say that I think there's one one 0:19:40.276 --> 0:19:44.596 most promising solution. I think whatever happens, and it has 0:19:44.636 --> 0:19:47.596 to be a combination of things, and they don't really 0:19:47.636 --> 0:19:50.036 go together. It's got to be kind of a patchwork 0:19:50.436 --> 0:19:54.716 in which we encourage and support the nonprofits, in which 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:58.436 people in communities recognize that they've got to support their 0:19:59.156 --> 0:20:05.636 newspaper if they wanted to continue public policy answers. So, 0:20:06.156 --> 0:20:09.316 you know, a lot of different things, and certainly the 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:15.556 nurturing of nonprofits, both as these digital startups and also 0:20:16.116 --> 0:20:20.276 as newspapers begin in a very small way to start 0:20:20.316 --> 0:20:23.916 turning themselves into nonprofits, as the Salt Lake Tribune just 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:27.636 did you know, that has to be fostered and encouraged 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:30.996 as well. So a bunch of different things and a 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:35.196 lot of crossed fingers, and maybe some prayers to Saint 0:20:35.236 --> 0:20:40.276 Francis de Sales, the patron saint of journalists. Well beyond prayers, 0:20:40.316 --> 0:20:43.676 you know, I wonder what people listening who are concerned 0:20:43.676 --> 0:20:46.796 about this problem, as I very much am can do. 0:20:46.876 --> 0:20:49.036 I think you're probably going to say that the first 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:52.476 thing is to support your local news organization, But how 0:20:52.476 --> 0:20:54.436 can people do that, and what else can they do? Well? 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:58.676 They can support their local news organization, most simply by subscribing, 0:20:58.756 --> 0:21:02.236 by saying, yeah, I wish it was better, it used 0:21:02.236 --> 0:21:05.676 to be thicker. I liked it more when ex columnist 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:08.876 was there. But I'm still going to subscribe. So that's 0:21:08.876 --> 0:21:11.796 a really basic thing. And then I think to engage 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:14.396 with it, to write a letter to the editor, to 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:17.956 call the city editor and say, hey, you know, when 0:21:17.996 --> 0:21:20.516 you covered my town board meeting, you got this wrong. 0:21:21.076 --> 0:21:24.276 And then you similarly, to be in touch with your 0:21:24.756 --> 0:21:29.156 local representatives in Congress and possibly at the state level, 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.116 to say, hey, local journalism really matters a lot to me, 0:21:32.196 --> 0:21:35.116 what are you doing about it? So I think all 0:21:35.156 --> 0:21:39.476 those things can be helpful. Margaret, thanks for joining us Unsolvable. 0:21:39.916 --> 0:21:45.476 Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. That was Margaret Sullivan. 0:21:45.636 --> 0:21:49.036 Her new book is Ghosting the News, Local Journalism, and 0:21:49.156 --> 0:21:52.636 the Crisis of American Democracy. Remember to check out our 0:21:52.636 --> 0:21:55.476 show notes for links to the suggestions our guests make 0:21:55.556 --> 0:21:58.796 about ways that you can get involved. Next week, my 0:21:58.876 --> 0:22:02.876 co host Ann Applebaum talks with the linguist John mcwarter. 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:06.036 He's someone who is attentive to the complexities of the 0:22:06.076 --> 0:22:09.556 spoken word, and he has some straightforward ideas about how 0:22:09.556 --> 0:22:14.596 to solve cancel culture. Please join us. Solvable is brought 0:22:14.636 --> 0:22:17.396 to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by 0:22:17.476 --> 0:22:22.716 Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frank. Catherine Girardou is our 0:22:22.796 --> 0:22:27.156 managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Special 0:22:27.196 --> 0:22:31.716 thanks to Heather Fame, Eric Sandler, Carley Mgmuiori, and Kadija Holland. 0:22:32.036 --> 0:22:33.396 I'm Jacob Weisberg.