1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. When you're trying 2 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:26,916 Speaker 1: to do journalism, then you have to kind of run 3 00:00:26,916 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 1: out and make sure you can pay your reporters that 4 00:00:29,316 --> 00:00:34,036 Speaker 1: week or next month. That's a tough thing. For some 5 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 1: years now, local news organizations have been feeling the pinch. 6 00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:41,636 Speaker 1: Their audiences have moved online, and advertising revenue, which used 7 00:00:41,676 --> 00:00:44,396 Speaker 1: to pay most of the costs of the journalism, has 8 00:00:44,436 --> 00:00:47,236 Speaker 1: gone elsewhere. A lot of those times are going to 9 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 1: the so called duopoly of Facebook and Google. Bell kightening 10 00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: and budget cutting have reduced the quantity and quality of 11 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: local reporting, and all over the country news operations have 12 00:00:59,556 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: been closing up shop. This isn't just a problem for 13 00:01:02,956 --> 00:01:08,156 Speaker 1: journalists themselves. Margaret Sullivan thinks there's something much larger at 14 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:12,516 Speaker 1: risk when reporters who expose wrongdoing by government and business 15 00:01:12,876 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: don't have the backing of successful news organizations. You know, 16 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,516 Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to ignore a gadfly citizen, as 17 00:01:20,556 --> 00:01:24,236 Speaker 1: these folks might be seen, rather than a big institution 18 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: that's powerful. Democracy depends on citizens paying attention. Strong local 19 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:34,436 Speaker 1: news operations help citizens stay in form and hold officials accountable. 20 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: Without good local journalism, corruption flourishes and citizens become more vulnerable. 21 00:01:42,036 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 1: Margaret Sullivan is ringing alarm bells, and she's hopeful. I 22 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 1: think that the decline of local news is solvable. Margaret 23 00:01:53,876 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 1: Sullivan is the media columnist for The Washington Post and 24 00:01:57,196 --> 00:02:00,196 Speaker 1: formerly the public editor of The New York Times. Her 25 00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:03,676 Speaker 1: new book is called Ghosting the News, Local Journalism and 26 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 1: the Crisis of American Democracy. I talked with her about 27 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:11,396 Speaker 1: the scale and serious the collapse of local news and 28 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: what can be done to fix it. Well, Margaret, thanks 29 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:19,036 Speaker 1: for joining us. Unsolvable and let's talk first about the 30 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: dimensions of this problem. There's no question that we are 31 00:02:22,476 --> 00:02:26,716 Speaker 1: losing local newspapers. I think something close to two thousand 32 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:28,636 Speaker 1: if I read that right in your book, have gone 33 00:02:28,636 --> 00:02:31,676 Speaker 1: out of business in the past fifteen years. And the 34 00:02:31,716 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 1: ones that remain aren't exactly thriving. And of course that 35 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:38,436 Speaker 1: matters a lot to us journalists. Those are our friends. 36 00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: That's the system we came up in. But why does 37 00:02:41,796 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 1: this matter so much? As you say in the title 38 00:02:45,036 --> 00:02:50,516 Speaker 1: of your book, to American democracy? It matters because while 39 00:02:50,636 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: newspapers are certainly not the only way that people are 40 00:02:54,876 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: informed about their communities and their public officials they have 41 00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:03,396 Speaker 1: been over time, perhaps the key way that people get 42 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 1: information about how their local governments are functioning and how 43 00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:13,356 Speaker 1: communities have a base of facts from which to operate. 44 00:03:13,396 --> 00:03:15,316 Speaker 1: They may disagree on the facts or what to do 45 00:03:15,396 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 1: about them, but they sort of have this shared substance 46 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:24,236 Speaker 1: that makes sense to everybody. As that has dwindled away 47 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: largely because of the dissolution of the underlying business model 48 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:34,076 Speaker 1: based on print advertising, largely, people are less informed, people 49 00:03:34,236 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: are less civically engaged, and it hurts the underlying the 50 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:43,756 Speaker 1: underpinnings of the way our society and our government is 51 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:47,756 Speaker 1: supposed to function. So it's primarily an accountability problem, right 52 00:03:47,796 --> 00:03:52,356 Speaker 1: If simply put, if the press isn't watching government officials 53 00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 1: can get away with more corruption, more mismanagement. I think 54 00:03:56,276 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 1: you said it exactly right, Jacob. It is primarily an 55 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:03,076 Speaker 1: accountability problem. But I see another aspect to a two 56 00:04:03,116 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: which I just like to mention, which is has nothing 57 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:10,036 Speaker 1: to do with really watchdog journalism or that accountability, which 58 00:04:10,196 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 1: is that newspapers have traditionally been a way that communities 59 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:19,596 Speaker 1: helped knit themselves together, whether it's about coverage of concerts 60 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:23,796 Speaker 1: or restaurants or theater or interesting people or obituaries. It's 61 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 1: sort of a village square for the community. That has 62 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:29,476 Speaker 1: nothing to do with whether the town council or the 63 00:04:29,476 --> 00:04:33,396 Speaker 1: city council is mismanaging your tax dollars. But it does 64 00:04:33,476 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 1: have to do with sort of cohesion within the community. 65 00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:39,636 Speaker 1: So it's both of those things and probably a bunch 66 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 1: of others too. But why is it important that it's 67 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:47,956 Speaker 1: news organizations versus you know, bloggers or people posting smartphone 68 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:50,796 Speaker 1: videos or tweeting about what's going on in their town 69 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:55,316 Speaker 1: or community. Why isn't citizen journalism the replacement for all this? 70 00:04:56,276 --> 00:05:00,116 Speaker 1: Citizen journalism, if that's what we want to call it, 71 00:05:00,196 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: is part of the solution. One of the things it 72 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 1: can't do very well, though, is publicized to the same 73 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 1: degree that a front page headline or a big homepage 74 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 1: treatment can from the Chicago Tribune or the Sometimes, you know, 75 00:05:16,756 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to ignore a gadfly citizen, as 76 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:24,236 Speaker 1: these folks might be seen, rather than a big institution 77 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:28,276 Speaker 1: that's powerful. This has now become a problem of democracy, 78 00:05:28,356 --> 00:05:30,196 Speaker 1: and not just in the United States, of course, It's 79 00:05:30,516 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 1: going on around the world. So the question is why 80 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 1: is it happening? Is it mainly just that the ad 81 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: dollars that used to support local news now go mainly 82 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: to Google and Facebook. That's a huge part of it. 83 00:05:44,676 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 1: It is, I would say, if you had to identify 84 00:05:47,236 --> 00:05:50,396 Speaker 1: one reason for this, it does have to do with advertising. 85 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 1: So you know, in the old days, which aren't that 86 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: long ago, the way newspapers supported themselves and their staffs 87 00:05:58,316 --> 00:06:06,236 Speaker 1: was sort of two thirds advertising and one third subscriptions. Now, interestingly, 88 00:06:06,276 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: at places like the New York Times, which are doing 89 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 1: well and are going to make it, they are able 90 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: to get enough digital subscribers to you know, really support 91 00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 1: the business. But for local newspapers, including the big regionals, 92 00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: there isn't enough, you know, there may not be enough 93 00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: audience there to buy those subscriptions to make up for 94 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 1: the loss of ad dollars. And the ad dollars went 95 00:06:31,476 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 1: away in part because print faded so much and digital 96 00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:39,236 Speaker 1: advertising never measured up in the way that we hoped 97 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 1: it would. You know, people talked about eventually when they 98 00:06:41,796 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 1: figured it out, they started talking about print dollars and 99 00:06:45,196 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 1: digital dimes. And that's the case. And also a lot 100 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 1: of those dimes are going to the so called duopoly 101 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 1: of Facebook and Google, as you say so, Margaret. The 102 00:06:55,996 --> 00:06:59,156 Speaker 1: top national news organizations seemed to be doing pretty well, 103 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: the New York Times where it used to be the 104 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: public editor, or the Washington Post where you're the media 105 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: critic now, but a few years ago things look pretty 106 00:07:07,076 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 1: bleak for them too. So what can the next level 107 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 1: of metropolitan news organizations learn from their turnaround? Their success? 108 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 1: Because the Times in the Post are adding journalists and 109 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: increasing their journalistic footprint even as the papers and cities 110 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:30,356 Speaker 1: a little smaller than that are drastically shrinking. Absolutely right. 111 00:07:30,476 --> 00:07:34,196 Speaker 1: And these are both interesting examples because both the New 112 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:36,836 Speaker 1: York Times and the Washington Post had some pretty rough 113 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: years and not so long ago, but they have started 114 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:46,876 Speaker 1: concentrating on something new, not entirely new, but concentrating more 115 00:07:46,956 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 1: deeply on digital subscribers, people who are going to pay 116 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 1: money to get their journalism. And so rather than concentrate 117 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:01,356 Speaker 1: on you know, sort of this is the lay person's 118 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 1: way to say it, but clicks. Rather than concentrate on clicks, 119 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: which is a little bit more oriented towards the advertising 120 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 1: end of things, now the emphasis is on really deepening 121 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:18,356 Speaker 1: a loyalty to the audience, the readership, the view or 122 00:08:18,356 --> 00:08:20,836 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it so that there's this 123 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 1: sense of, Yes, I really appreciate this work, and I'm 124 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:27,556 Speaker 1: going to put it on a renewable thing on my 125 00:08:27,636 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 1: credit card so that I keep getting the New York 126 00:08:30,436 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 1: Times of the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal. It 127 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 1: is more challenging for the local and the regional outlets 128 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: because they have a smaller, you know, sort of universe 129 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:42,396 Speaker 1: to appeal to. The Times in the Post and the 130 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal can you know, be marketing themselves really globally. 131 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 1: The Buffalo News, the Chicago Tribune and sometimes probably aren't 132 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:55,596 Speaker 1: going to be able to do that because the content 133 00:08:55,756 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 1: that they have that's that's different, that makes them indispensable 134 00:09:01,396 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: is going to be local. Um. You know, So there's 135 00:09:04,716 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 1: just you know, there's a there's a smaller sort of um, 136 00:09:08,076 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: there's a smaller universe of possible subscribers out there. But 137 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:15,156 Speaker 1: you know, the Boston Globe has made real progress on this, 138 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 1: The La Times has made real progress on this, and 139 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 1: there is reason to hope. Don't they all just need 140 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 1: to get together in some way. I mean, on a a 141 00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 1: given day, I may want to read a story in 142 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: Cleveland or in Buffalo, or in LA in Chicago, but 143 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 1: I don't go to those sites often enough that it 144 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 1: would make sense for me, living in New York to 145 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 1: subscribe to any of them. But I'd gladly pay for 146 00:09:36,836 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 1: a speed pass that let me gave me access to 147 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 1: all newspapers in the country and shared the shared the 148 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:47,476 Speaker 1: revenue with all of them. That seems like a good idea. 149 00:09:47,636 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that developed, but I think it has promise, 150 00:09:52,396 --> 00:09:54,716 Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people would feel the 151 00:09:54,716 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: same way. It's like, I don't really want to subscribe to, 152 00:09:57,236 --> 00:10:00,956 Speaker 1: you know, the Toledo Blade, but there's this story I 153 00:10:00,996 --> 00:10:03,996 Speaker 1: really want to read, so I'll use my past, you know. 154 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:07,476 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's worth exploring, and maybe it 155 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:11,236 Speaker 1: has been explored. I have seen sort of the system 156 00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:15,076 Speaker 1: of micropayments, you know, you pay a tiny amount for 157 00:10:15,156 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 1: this one story you want to read, sort of like 158 00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 1: you would with a music app that has not seemed 159 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 1: to do well or be very helpful. Let's talk about 160 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 1: some of the other solutions and things you talk about 161 00:10:25,916 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: in the book. One that a lot of people are 162 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: very interested in is nonprofit models and philanthropic support. I 163 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:38,556 Speaker 1: think one of the most successful new news organizations in 164 00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:42,116 Speaker 1: the country is a Texas Tribune, which is based in 165 00:10:42,156 --> 00:10:46,756 Speaker 1: Austin and probably covers government and politics in Texas better 166 00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 1: than the newspapers ever did in their heyday. And that's 167 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 1: a nonprofit. So is that kind of model the solution 168 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:59,236 Speaker 1: to it. It's a solution without a doubt. The Texas Tribune, 169 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 1: and now the Texas Tribune is working with pro Publica, 170 00:11:03,276 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 1: which is another great digital investigative site that has more 171 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 1: of a national point of view. And we do see 172 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:13,276 Speaker 1: them in many other communities. There's the Voice of San Diego, 173 00:11:13,316 --> 00:11:17,436 Speaker 1: there's Minpost in Minneapolis, the one I mentioned in Buffalo. 174 00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:22,876 Speaker 1: It is, you know, it is difficult to make them 175 00:11:22,956 --> 00:11:27,956 Speaker 1: scale to the point that newspapers were able to, you know, 176 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:32,756 Speaker 1: to that level. I don't think that there probably will 177 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:38,876 Speaker 1: be the opportunity to put a nonprofit based on philanthropic 178 00:11:38,956 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 1: or membership dollars in every small town that's lost a weekly. 179 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:48,156 Speaker 1: So scale is a real problem and a real issue there. 180 00:11:48,476 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: But where they do work, they're great, and they also 181 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:54,076 Speaker 1: tend to be more nimble and sometimes more aggressive, less 182 00:11:54,156 --> 00:11:58,036 Speaker 1: hide bound, less willing to sort of cowtow to the 183 00:11:58,116 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 1: local powers that be. They can really do some great work, 184 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: and they do it's good not to be dependent on advertising, 185 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: right You don't have to think what the big local 186 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: advertiser is going to think about your story. I mean, 187 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:10,676 Speaker 1: the money has to come from somewhere, but if it 188 00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: comes from donors and foundations who care about the community, 189 00:12:14,676 --> 00:12:16,756 Speaker 1: it's less likely that any one of them is going 190 00:12:16,796 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: to try to exert a lot of control. Maybe. I mean, 191 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:25,116 Speaker 1: donors are human beings as well, and and sometimes in 192 00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 1: a community, the big donors are the same people that 193 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:32,716 Speaker 1: you might want to write a big investigative piece about. So, 194 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:35,076 Speaker 1: you know, and are you going to pull your punches 195 00:12:35,076 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 1: because you don't want to mess with your you know, 196 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:42,316 Speaker 1: your biggest contributor. It did. It certainly was the case 197 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:46,196 Speaker 1: at newspapers and may still be that, you know, you 198 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 1: didn't really want to get the biggest car dealership in 199 00:12:48,836 --> 00:12:52,596 Speaker 1: town very mad at you because they were, you know, 200 00:12:52,716 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 1: they were contributing so much to the bottom line. But 201 00:12:55,756 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: there always was a real separation between advertising and editorial 202 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 1: in Buffalo. We never saw an you know, for a 203 00:13:02,956 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: long time, it would be unheard of for an advertising 204 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:09,076 Speaker 1: salesman to you know, even be in the newsroom. Now 205 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 1: I think there's you know, there's less of a separation 206 00:13:13,636 --> 00:13:17,516 Speaker 1: between the money side and the journalism side. And I'm 207 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:22,116 Speaker 1: not suggesting that there's an integrity problem in these news organizations. 208 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: I don't know of one, but I you know, I 209 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:27,876 Speaker 1: think that's something that has to be thought about. Yeah, 210 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 1: I mean, what I've observed about the best of the nonprofits, 211 00:13:30,476 --> 00:13:34,516 Speaker 1: the Texas Tribune and as you say, nationally ProPublica is 212 00:13:34,556 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: that they're really entrepreneurial. So they managed to be both 213 00:13:38,316 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: nonprofit and be able to raise money and tax deductible money, 214 00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:47,636 Speaker 1: but they also actually think like entrepreneurial businesses. That's great 215 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:51,156 Speaker 1: solution in a few cases, but that's very hard to scale. 216 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: It's very hard to have and as you say, compounded 217 00:13:53,596 --> 00:13:58,076 Speaker 1: by the problem of smallness with these really local sites, 218 00:13:58,196 --> 00:14:01,036 Speaker 1: you know, how can they be enterprising businesses and raise 219 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:05,236 Speaker 1: philanthropic money and do their primary job of covering government 220 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:08,636 Speaker 1: and covering the news, right? I mean, I have talked 221 00:14:08,636 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 1: with one founder of a nonprofit who told me that 222 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:18,796 Speaker 1: they have had to fundraise to meet payroll at times, 223 00:14:18,956 --> 00:14:21,356 Speaker 1: and that's pretty scary when you're trying to do journalism. 224 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 1: Then you have to kind of run out and make 225 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:26,996 Speaker 1: sure you can pay your reporters. That week or next month. 226 00:14:27,476 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 1: That's a tough thing. But you know, speaking of the 227 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:35,076 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial spirit that you mentioned, absolutely true. The other thing 228 00:14:35,116 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 1: that is happening more of necessity is collaboration between news organizations. 229 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:45,876 Speaker 1: You know. So now with state house coverage on the decline, 230 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:53,036 Speaker 1: there's an outfit in Pennsylvania called Spotlight PA that has 231 00:14:53,076 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: gotten a bunch of different news organizations, not just newspapers, 232 00:14:56,276 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 1: but broadcast and radio together to combine and produce state 233 00:15:01,716 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 1: house coverage that they can all use. These are places 234 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:07,756 Speaker 1: that probably would have been you know, scoop happy with 235 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: each other trying to come pete in the past, and 236 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: now they're trying to collaborate. It goes a little bit 237 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: against the journalistic DNA I think should be so nice 238 00:15:18,396 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 1: to the guy that used to be your competitor. But 239 00:15:21,116 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 1: I think that's really an important part of what has 240 00:15:23,996 --> 00:15:26,916 Speaker 1: to happen, Margaret. People talk about the idea of giving 241 00:15:27,276 --> 00:15:31,316 Speaker 1: news organizations an antitrust exemption, which I understand to mean 242 00:15:31,396 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: that they'd be allowed to all get together or make 243 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 1: a deal among themselves and then say to Google and Facebook, 244 00:15:37,796 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 1: here's the deal with all of us, or you get 245 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:43,756 Speaker 1: a deal with none of us. It's like, you know, 246 00:15:43,796 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 1: a union sort of for organizations in a way baseball 247 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: has an antitrust exemption. There are lots of examples of 248 00:15:50,076 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: antitrust exemptions. Does that make sense to you, Yes, it does. 249 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 1: I mean it actually has to do with sort of 250 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: the power in numbers. Instead of just this little organization 251 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 1: trying to go up against these massive social media platforms 252 00:16:01,956 --> 00:16:09,156 Speaker 1: or search engines, huge companies worldwide. It gives them some 253 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: some solidarity and some ability to get together. Yeah. I mean, 254 00:16:13,596 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 1: Facebook and Google are always making all this noise about 255 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 1: how they want to support local journalism, and they're you know, 256 00:16:18,956 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 1: they seem to feel kind of guilty about accidentally destroying it. 257 00:16:22,156 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: They didn't destroy it on purpose, it was it was 258 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: a side effect of building their businesses. But did they 259 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:31,956 Speaker 1: And thinking again about philanthropic solutions, I mean, as they're 260 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 1: separate from the idea of an antitrust exemption, you know, 261 00:16:35,436 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: is there a way that they can be prevailed upon 262 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:41,476 Speaker 1: to support all this journalism which they really need to exist. 263 00:16:41,836 --> 00:16:43,916 Speaker 1: Google is a lot worse if all the newspapers go 264 00:16:43,956 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: out of business, if they are forced to, they will 265 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:50,796 Speaker 1: you know, the things that they've done that have been voluntary, 266 00:16:50,876 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 1: which I think are useful, good and relatively small scale, 267 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:02,236 Speaker 1: you know, have happened, you know, out of a sense 268 00:17:02,276 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 1: of you know, kind of managing the pr around it, 269 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 1: I think, and maybe wanting to do the right thing. 270 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:11,356 Speaker 1: The Google News initiative has helped a bunch of different 271 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: newspapers figure out how to get digital subscriptions, and that's 272 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 1: very positive. Facebook has changed its algorithms so that it 273 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: features local news more and does reimburse some of them more. 274 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think it's at the point that's 275 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:32,636 Speaker 1: going to save anything right now, Margaret, What about the 276 00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 1: idea of direct government support. I mean, that's an idea 277 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:37,836 Speaker 1: that we journalist sort have just hated, you know, a 278 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:40,316 Speaker 1: couple of decades ago, but there doesn't seem to be 279 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 1: a great alternative to it now. So the idea of 280 00:17:43,756 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 1: direct government support is one that, as you say, you know, 281 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 1: has been sort of a third rail for journalists. We 282 00:17:49,476 --> 00:17:52,956 Speaker 1: just don't want to ever compromise our independence or our 283 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:56,596 Speaker 1: idea of our own independence by taking money directly from 284 00:17:56,636 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 1: the government. But you know, I think and others are 285 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:04,396 Speaker 1: beginning to think, because we're in a more desperate straits 286 00:18:04,476 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 1: now that this is something that bears a closer and 287 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 1: a deeper look. Nicholas Lemon, they Columbia Journalism School former 288 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:18,876 Speaker 1: dean who is the CEO of the publishing house that 289 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:22,636 Speaker 1: published my book, Columbia Global Reports, is farther along on 290 00:18:22,676 --> 00:18:27,276 Speaker 1: this spectrum than i am. And he really believes that 291 00:18:27,436 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 1: safeguards and guardrails can be built in so that independence 292 00:18:32,676 --> 00:18:35,796 Speaker 1: would be preserved. It has to do with how it 293 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 1: is set up and the extent to which there is 294 00:18:39,836 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 1: true independence built in. At the Voice of America, the 295 00:18:44,276 --> 00:18:48,916 Speaker 1: Trump administration has really intruded there. It is worrisome. I 296 00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 1: mean there, you know, there's a political pointee who's just 297 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 1: been put in charge, replacing a woman named Amanda Bennett, 298 00:18:57,716 --> 00:19:01,156 Speaker 1: who was the editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer, had a 299 00:19:01,276 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 1: distinguished news career. You know, these are the kinds of 300 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:08,516 Speaker 1: things that can happen when there's government control. You go, 301 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 1: you go, in a blink of an eye from journalism 302 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:13,636 Speaker 1: to propaganda. Looks like it's what's going to happen at 303 00:19:13,676 --> 00:19:16,556 Speaker 1: Voice of America. Yes, so that's a real worry, and 304 00:19:16,596 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 1: that's something that clearly needs to be foreseen and prevented. Yeah, So, 305 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: which of these solutions do you really want to place 306 00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 1: your bets on. I mean, this is an urgent problem. 307 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: We're losing local news organizations every week. So I'm well 308 00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:35,356 Speaker 1: aware that this is a solutions oriented effort we're doing here, 309 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:40,116 Speaker 1: But I cannot say that I think there's one one 310 00:19:40,276 --> 00:19:44,596 Speaker 1: most promising solution. I think whatever happens, and it has 311 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,596 Speaker 1: to be a combination of things, and they don't really 312 00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: go together. It's got to be kind of a patchwork 313 00:19:50,436 --> 00:19:54,716 Speaker 1: in which we encourage and support the nonprofits, in which 314 00:19:54,756 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: people in communities recognize that they've got to support their 315 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 1: newspaper if they wanted to continue public policy answers. So, 316 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of different things, and certainly the 317 00:20:10,356 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 1: nurturing of nonprofits, both as these digital startups and also 318 00:20:16,116 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 1: as newspapers begin in a very small way to start 319 00:20:20,316 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: turning themselves into nonprofits, as the Salt Lake Tribune just 320 00:20:24,036 --> 00:20:27,636 Speaker 1: did you know, that has to be fostered and encouraged 321 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 1: as well. So a bunch of different things and a 322 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:35,196 Speaker 1: lot of crossed fingers, and maybe some prayers to Saint 323 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 1: Francis de Sales, the patron saint of journalists. Well beyond prayers, 324 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 1: you know, I wonder what people listening who are concerned 325 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: about this problem, as I very much am can do. 326 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:49,036 Speaker 1: I think you're probably going to say that the first 327 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 1: thing is to support your local news organization, But how 328 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: can people do that, and what else can they do? Well? 329 00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:58,676 Speaker 1: They can support their local news organization, most simply by subscribing, 330 00:20:58,756 --> 00:21:02,236 Speaker 1: by saying, yeah, I wish it was better, it used 331 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 1: to be thicker. I liked it more when ex columnist 332 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: was there. But I'm still going to subscribe. So that's 333 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 1: a really basic thing. And then I think to engage 334 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:14,396 Speaker 1: with it, to write a letter to the editor, to 335 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:17,956 Speaker 1: call the city editor and say, hey, you know, when 336 00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 1: you covered my town board meeting, you got this wrong. 337 00:21:21,076 --> 00:21:24,276 Speaker 1: And then you similarly, to be in touch with your 338 00:21:24,756 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 1: local representatives in Congress and possibly at the state level, 339 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 1: to say, hey, local journalism really matters a lot to me, 340 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:35,116 Speaker 1: what are you doing about it? So I think all 341 00:21:35,156 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: those things can be helpful. Margaret, thanks for joining us Unsolvable. 342 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:45,476 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. That was Margaret Sullivan. 343 00:21:45,636 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 1: Her new book is Ghosting the News, Local Journalism, and 344 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 1: the Crisis of American Democracy. Remember to check out our 345 00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:55,476 Speaker 1: show notes for links to the suggestions our guests make 346 00:21:55,556 --> 00:21:58,796 Speaker 1: about ways that you can get involved. Next week, my 347 00:21:58,876 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 1: co host Ann Applebaum talks with the linguist John mcwarter. 348 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:06,036 Speaker 1: He's someone who is attentive to the complexities of the 349 00:22:06,076 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: spoken word, and he has some straightforward ideas about how 350 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:14,596 Speaker 1: to solve cancel culture. Please join us. Solvable is brought 351 00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:17,396 Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by 352 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 1: Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frank. Catherine Girardou is our 353 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:27,156 Speaker 1: managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Special 354 00:22:27,196 --> 00:22:31,716 Speaker 1: thanks to Heather Fame, Eric Sandler, Carley Mgmuiori, and Kadija Holland. 355 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Weisberg.