1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today we're going to talk 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: about the gender of genius because it's a masculine, gendered 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: noun in a lot of ways. Let's just go ahead 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: and put that out there. Yeah, that's gonna be the 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: whole point of the show and the thing that we're 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: going to work to dismantle. Yeah, And there have actually 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: been a lot of scientific studies in the past few 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: years and even in the past few weeks when we're 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: recording this that have been really digging into our implicit 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: associations with genius and innovation, and research is finding that 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: there are really strong correlations between our gendering of genius 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: and participation of women in STEM fields and science, technology, engineering, 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: and math. Right, because if something is an implicit bias, 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: if you yourself, no matter if you're a man or 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: a woman, have internalized that bias and those assumptions, it 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: will likely shape your behavior. And in this case, what 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: it's shaping is the assumptions that some people are making 20 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: about who can be a genius, who can attain that 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: level well, because if you look back in pretty much 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: all of recorded history, going back to Aristotle, the concept 23 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: of genius and brilliance was something attributed to men, that 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: was their natural trait, whereas it's natural and quotes for 25 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: women to be more nurturing. And we see this theme 26 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: come up over and over again. Uh. And one quote 27 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: from the Old school philosopher John Stuart Mill came up 28 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: in a number of sources we were reading that kind 29 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: of gets to the heart of this whole. It's it's 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: simply unnatural for a woman to be a genius. So 31 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: at one point Mill wrote, everything which is usual appears natural, 32 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: the subjection of women to men being a universal custom. 33 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: Any departure from it quite naturally appears unnatural. So there's 34 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: just this initial resistance to even the idea of women 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: being genius because if they're if women can be geniuses, 36 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: then that means that they might not be so subordinate 37 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: to men, right, or that men might have something in 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: common with women. Women might come into the room and 39 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: talk to you. But let's start things off on a 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: bright note. I love that. Yeah, and unusual for us. Well, 41 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: you know what, let's change things up, shall we. And 42 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: this is courtesy of the MacArthur Foundation, which is non 43 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: for it's so called genius grants that it gives out 44 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: every year. And I gotta say all snaps and claps 45 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: to the MacArthur Foundation because they have a track record 46 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: of selecting comparatively diverse groups of so called geniuses. Yeah, 47 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: September of this year marked the Foundation's thirty five anniversary 48 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: of giving this five year, no strings attached genius grant 49 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: to people who were chosen for their creativity and their 50 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: ongoing potential to you know, continue to create amazing stuff 51 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: and make amazing changes in this world. And podcast fans 52 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: might know that jad Adam Rod, who created and co 53 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: hosts Radio Lab, was given a MacArthur grant at one 54 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: point um, which is part of why Radio Lab is 55 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: such a sonic delight for our years because of his creativity, 56 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: but also these resources that he was given to help 57 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: develop up that. But a lot of these other people 58 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: are not white fellas like Jad Adam Rod, even though 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: of course jedam Rod is fantastic. Nothing against Jed Adam Rod. 60 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: Just saying that there's some sminty all stars among these geniuses, 61 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: that's absolutely right. Uh. I gin poo In was awarded 62 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: a Genius Grant. She's the director of course for the 63 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: National Domestic Workers Alliance. We talked to her during the 64 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: Maker's Conference of this year. Also in graphic novelist Alison Bechdel, 65 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: and in two thousand five conductor Marin Also. I mean, 66 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: these are all incredible women that we've discussed on the 67 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: podcast before. Yeah. Bechdel us coined the so called Bechdel 68 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: Test in her former comic strip called Dikes to Watch 69 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: out For. And the whole Bechdel test is essentially a 70 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: test of like, whether there's any shred of decent female 71 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: representation on screen, which must include two women talking to 72 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: each other who both have names, and they were not 73 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: talking about a dude. And you'd be surprised how few 74 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: movies pass effectal test. And then Marin All's up came 75 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: up a lot in our episode a while back on 76 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: women and conducting and orchestras, because orchestra conductors are a 77 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: very male dominated group. Well, and that whole episode, which 78 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: I encourage you to go back and listen to, UH, 79 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: would be a great companion piece to today's episode because 80 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of conversation in that previous episode about 81 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: what makes a genius, a creative genius, what makes a prodigy? 82 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: What makes someone in the field of music and in 83 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: conducting in in particular successful, And when it comes to 84 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: pH ds in music composition, you see a very wide 85 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: gender gap, with most of those um being earned by dudes. 86 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: But we'll get to that later in the show. UM. 87 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: This year in ten, we also wanted to shout out 88 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: a trio of amazing women of color who have been 89 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: recognized as McArthur geniuses as well, starting with Kelly Jones, 90 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: who's an art historian and curator of contemporary art from 91 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: the African diaspora, and her whole mission is to really 92 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: expand and diversify our definition of what contemporary art is. 93 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 1: And in her video on the MacArthur Foundation's website, she says, 94 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: there are art histories that are global, and art history 95 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: isn't just written in Europe. Yeah, she wanted her colleagues 96 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: in our history to acknowledge that fact. And we also 97 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge poet Claudia Rankin because a lot of 98 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: her work has explored very sminty relevant important themes. Um 99 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: in plot she explored pregnant in motherhood, uh, and don't 100 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: let me be lonely. She looked at the fear culture 101 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: in the wake of nine eleven, and Citizen was a 102 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: response to Katrina, police shootings of unarmed black men and 103 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: other events of injustice. And Joyce Scott was the MacArthur 104 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: genius that captivated me the most. I had never heard 105 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: of her before and am really excited to investigate more 106 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: of her work because she's a sculptor, jewelry maker, and 107 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: she also refers to herself as a visual and performing artist, 108 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: but her primary medium is bead work, and she crafts 109 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: these massive installations that are like primarily composed of this 110 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: really intricate bead work, all of which tells a story, 111 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: and in particular, her work tends to comment on racism, sexism, 112 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: and social injustice. And she told the MacArthur Foundation that 113 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: my best voice is as an artist. And I highly 114 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: recommend you look up Joyce see Scott's work, because you 115 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: just have to see the level of detail and the 116 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: powerful images and sculpture she creates with what had previously 117 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: been maligned as just it was just a little handicraft. Yes, well, 118 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: is that not a theme of the discussion of genius 119 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: for centuries? And I mean, you know, It's important to 120 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: note too, though, that we've been calling these things MacArthur 121 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: genius grants, but even the MacArthur Foundation is like, we 122 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: don't really call them that, guys. They say that we 123 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: avoid using the term genius to describe MacArthur fellows because 124 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: it connotes a singular characteristic of intellectual prowess. The people 125 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,479 Speaker 1: we seek to support express many other important qualities. Ability 126 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: to transcend traditional boundaries, willingness to take risks, persistence in 127 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: the face of personal and conceptual obstacles, and capacity to 128 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: synthesize disparate ideas and approaches. And I mean, are those 129 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: are traits that help people achieve so called genius status 130 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: no matter who you are, right, But I think a 131 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: lot of times we think of genius as that instant 132 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: light bulb moment, as someone who is a good will 133 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: hunting who can walk up to the chalkboard and be like, oh, yes, 134 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: I just I knew all of these I'm waiting for that. Yeah, 135 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for that to happen for me. Yeah. Not 136 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: to say there aren't people who have that potential um, 137 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: but there it's worth considering whether we do need to 138 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: maybe reframe how we think about genius and also um 139 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: and as more emphasis on the time and failure that 140 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: it often takes to UH to accomplish these things that 141 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: geniuses are often known for. And here's the thing, those 142 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: MacArthur fellows are the brightest spot in this conversation because 143 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: historically women just could not be creative geniuses. And we 144 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: got to give a hat tip to Christine Battersby's Gender 145 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: and Genius toward a feminist aesthetics. She really wrote this 146 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: groundbreaking text that is still often referenced when we talk 147 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: about gender and genius, and she talks about how genius, 148 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: along with rationality and intellect have been masculine gender traits 149 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: since antiquity because guys have all of those those tools, 150 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: whereas women are sensitive and oh no, those are our 151 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: natural traits. Yeah. Basically the idea that women are focused 152 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: inward literally inward within themselves because they're you know, they've 153 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: got women's intuition and they're emotional and their quiet and 154 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: they're tending to the hump, but also looking inward like 155 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: as in in the home, because they are in a 156 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: separate sphere away from men and the fancy rooms where 157 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: genius activity apparently happens and It's funny when you look 158 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: at quotes about women's supposed lack of genius because it 159 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: just sounds like the Internet in oh it so does 160 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: it really sounds like Twitter? Those dudes on Twitter. Um, 161 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: just to emphasize how uh disbelieving genius men have been, 162 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: that it could possibly be something that could happen to 163 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: a lady brain, that our lady brains could have light 164 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: bulb moments as well. Uh. We wanted to share some 165 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: quotes that were discussed in the book The Invention of Art, 166 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: a Cultural History by Larry Shiner. So let's start with 167 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: an anonymous dude who was writing in a magazine called 168 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: The Spectator back in seventeen twelve. He writes, and this 169 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: made me think of Joyce Scott and her beadwork. He writes, 170 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: needlework is the most proper way wherein a lady can 171 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: show fine genius. And he goes on to say how 172 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: he wishes that quote several writers of the sex had 173 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: chosen to apply themselves rather to tapestry than rhyme. Well, yeah, 174 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: which goes again back to the idea that like needlework 175 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: and these types of domestic arts are any craft handicraft, 176 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: they're more well suited to a woman, which then has 177 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: the cyclical effect of women, you're quiet and emotional and 178 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: part of the domestic sphere, so you need to do handicrafts. Oh, 179 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: and therefore handicrafts are crap because are done by women. 180 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: On and on and on and on, and this relates 181 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: back to our episode on knitting, where knitting used to 182 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: be Uh, this really revered trade that men totally participated 183 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: in until it became like this, what ladies do do? 184 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: Needlework and tiny prune brains. So much fear, so much fear, 185 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: and also just so much what for instance, you have 186 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: all enlightenment philosopher and rationalist, ironically Jean Jacques Rousso, who wrote, 187 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: women in general possess no genius because the celestial fire 188 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: that emblazons and ignites the soul, the inspiration that comes 189 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: and devours are always lacking. Dude, Dude, Risso riffs Jean 190 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: Jacques J J. J. J. Listen. Uh, Like this is 191 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: a theme in life throughout history of like we're going 192 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: to prevent women from doing a lot of stuff, and 193 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: then when women don't do a lot of stuff, we're 194 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 1: going to blame them and call them stupid. And underestimate 195 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: you how you you cannot possibly have the fire that 196 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: emblazons also JJ that also might be in an STD 197 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: you might want to check that out. Uh. And finally 198 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: we have German philosopher Emmanuel Kant who said a woman's 199 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: scholar might as well even have a beard, like gross, guys, 200 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: can you imagine? So it's like, even if we did 201 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: have that celestial fire that j J is going on about, 202 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: Emmanuel Kant would be like, but don't touch that troll. Yeah, 203 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: you can't win, You really can't win. There's no winning. 204 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: And all right, so if we move up to eighteen hundred, 205 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: about eighteen fifty genius male artists were allowed the room 206 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: to be both the genius with inflamed brain parts or 207 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: whatever Rousso was talking about, but also to have the 208 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: sensitivity necessary to create something of great importance. And and 209 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot of times it was framed in these well, 210 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: it was framed in terms of birth, you know, like 211 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: men they are impregnated with this inflamed idea or whatever, 212 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: and then they have to toil and labor and sweat 213 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: and then push it out as a painting or a 214 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,479 Speaker 1: sculpture or a work of fiction. And the intellectual episotomy, 215 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. But this was happening, we should note during 216 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: the era of romanticism. So you do have more male 217 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: artists who are creating these pieces that would normally be 218 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: more associated with a feminine aesthetic, but that did not 219 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: devalue them at all native friends, that only increased their 220 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: values because that birth process is unnatural for men, right, 221 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: So it was like, these guys have it all, fellas, 222 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: you can have it all. Romanticism artists, you can't have 223 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: it all. And uh, Christine Battersby in that Gender Ingenious 224 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: book talks about how um men's capacity for tapping into 225 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: the emotional was considered downright extraordinary. So for them it 226 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: was a gift. But you got to remember that on 227 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: the flip side of this, especially for talking about art 228 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: visual art, women artists were often barred from academies. Uh, 229 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: they were not allowed to draw do life drawings from 230 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: nude models. Thank god they had cows, right, Yeah, we'll 231 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: get we'll get to that joke. Dang it a spoiler. 232 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: And they were also if they were wanting to paint 233 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: a proper lady would stick to portraiture and flowers kind 234 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: of like. Around the same time, if a woman had 235 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: a mind for science, she would be steered towards botany. Yes, 236 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: which matched withdrawing flowers. It's perfect flowers. I mean, it's 237 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: all a woman's interests, you know, wrapped up into one 238 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: painting of a phone to one flower. But okay, no, 239 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: but I I sticking point was something you said, like, okay, 240 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: if this whole leg birth metaphor that it's so extraordinary 241 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: for a man to labor and create that idea, and 242 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: and because it's un natural and extraordinary, therefore he is 243 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: a genius. But they considered it unnatural for women to 244 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: be geniuses. So if a woman was a genius, wouldn't 245 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: she be considered extra mary? But instead she was considered 246 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: like an ugly masculine troll. I'm like men, pick a 247 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: pick a line of logic and stick with it, right 248 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: that j J what you get? How about them apples? 249 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: Russo monsieur, Count, I know you're not a monsieur, e'repe 250 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: because you're German? Would that be her? Hey? I Count, 251 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop saying his name in accents because that 252 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: might come across as the word we're not intending to say. 253 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: But his mind boggling as it is the masculinizing of 254 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: genius has been so deeply ingrained in our history and 255 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: our art history and even our science labs up to today. 256 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: There are some feminists who have argued for really tempering 257 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: our interests and recognition of loan geniuses in favor of 258 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: recognizing more collective efforts because there's some, um feminists who 259 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: find that women's collaborative work, you know, should gain more recognition. 260 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: But there are also, of course plenty of other feminists 261 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: who disagree. And also we have to keep in mind 262 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: too that essentializing a female artistic style as being more contemplative, delicate, 263 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: and detail oriented, um, and you know, praising women's works 264 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: solely for those kinds of traits that may or may 265 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: not be exhibited on canvas also misses the mark. Yeah, 266 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: which calls back to our women's street Artists episode about 267 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's great to recognize that there are female 268 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: street artists out there creating badass works of art and 269 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: public but on the other hand, like, there are plenty 270 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: of women who are like, can you not call me 271 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: a female street artists? Yeah, totally. I there's nothing different 272 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: in my art whether I paint flowers or like some 273 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: sort of you know, industrial scene or something. There's nothing 274 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: that makes it feminine or masculine. It's just art. And 275 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: this was a really huge issue among academics in particular 276 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: during the Women's liberation movement, because this was when a 277 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: lot of women's studies programs were getting off the ground, 278 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: and this was really when you first started to see 279 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: the opposition to this distinctly masculine gendering of genius. And 280 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: in researching for this episode, we ran across a V 281 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: one essay in Art News by Lynda Knockland titled why 282 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: have there been No Great women Artists? And it's worth 283 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: talking about because, first of all, like positioning it within 284 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: the time, um, it still feels relevant today. Oh yeah. 285 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: I was really surprised after I read it to be like, 286 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: oh this is oh this is from because it's it's 287 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: such an interesting piece because she makes the incredible point of, uh, hey, 288 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: we're asking the wrong question. There are valid answers to 289 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: the question, as it's put in the title of her piece, 290 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: but she's asking readers to take several steps back and 291 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: look at what they're asking and why and why they're 292 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: positioning it that way. And she starts out by explaining 293 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: First of all, what the barriers were two women even 294 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: being able to attempt to become a great artist? So 295 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: she she um. She points to these institutional issues Allah, 296 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: the lack of nude models for female artists. I mean 297 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: life drawing is like the core of a lot of art, 298 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of times you start out. They 299 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: were also barred from a lot of artistic professions, especially 300 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: in the French Academy, which was renowned. It was extremely 301 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: hard to get in there. And Malcolm Gladwell actually has 302 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: a terrific episode podcast episode on this in his show 303 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: Revisionist History. The first episode is actually all about this, 304 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: about this amazing female artist who almost makes it into 305 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: the academy. So I recommend listening to that, and hopefully 306 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: I will remember and put a link to that in 307 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: the source post for this episode so you can check 308 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 1: it out. And there's also nepotism that was going on 309 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: at this time, like artistic trades were often passed down 310 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: from father to son. Yeah, exactly. And and apprenticeships, it's 311 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: not like you had a ton of women floating around 312 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: in apprenticeships. All of those lengthy programs usually seven years, 313 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: those were for dudes to learn the trade and getting 314 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: back here col joke. Well, there was this amazing photo 315 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: in Knockland's essay from eighteen fifty five of a life 316 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: drawing class for women in the Pence Sylvania Academy. But 317 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: instead of having a naked person modeling, which would be unseemly, 318 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: they had a cow. There's there's like and it's just this. 319 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: It almost looks photoshopped because there's this giant cow with 320 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: all of these very properly dressed women sketching it. Have 321 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: you ever hung out with a cow? You know? I 322 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: actually one of my sisters owns a number of cows, 323 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: and I don't know if it constitutes hanging out with 324 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: but I've hung around the cows. They're pretty cool. I 325 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: like a cow. I there was one outside of Earthfare 326 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta not too long ago. Just like a 327 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: promotional thing for a dairy something something. Don't put a 328 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: counter parking lot. Also, don't put a cow in an 329 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: art academy. It's like, why didn't they take the women 330 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: outside to a field? What if that was the question? 331 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: But if that was their mascot, the Pennsylvania Cows Cow Academy. 332 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: No um if though uh an artistic lady had the 333 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: rare chance of drawing a male model. He he would 334 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: likely be very heavily draped and a lot of and 335 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: a lot of things, so as to not even suggestine 336 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: was Penis Joey and that episode of Friends where he's 337 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: wearing all of Chandler's clothes. You know, I don't I 338 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: don't get that one, but I'm sure it exists. Someone 339 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: knows what I'm talking about. Uh. But what really stopped 340 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: me to Caroline, and I'm really curious to hear what 341 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: you thought about. It was some real talk that knock 342 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: Land dropped, where she was basically saying, listen, it's terrific 343 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: for us to highlight these women artists who have remained 344 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: unrecognized but who were making incredible work. Um, but that 345 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: is not the answer to this question. We are going 346 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: about this the wrong way, she said. Quote. The fact 347 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: of the matter is that there have been no supremely 348 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: great women artists as far as we know, although there 349 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: have been many interesting and very good ones who remain 350 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: insufficiently investigated or appreciated. She she basically says, as much 351 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: as we want them to be there, that's not the case. 352 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: And she goes on to write quote that this should 353 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: be the case is regrettable, but no amount of manipulating 354 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: the historical or critical evidence will alter the situation. Normal 355 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: accusations of male chauvinist distortion of history. Well, I mean, 356 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: what's her argument in terms of supremely great women artists? 357 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: Is she just saying like, we don't have female Michaelangelo's Yeah, yeah, 358 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean, well yeah, and I think she's saying this too. 359 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: Focus us on the institutional barriers. Well, I even finding 360 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: exceptions to the rule. Yeah, Like, if you're imagining people 361 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: who want to be in the arts starting out on platforms, 362 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: Michaelangelo is starting out on the ground level. I mean, 363 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: obviously he was brilliant, but starting out on the ground 364 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: level and working up and achieving greatness and creating brilliant art. 365 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: Whereas women who might have had the same artistic proclivities, 366 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: same desires, are starting out on a platform in the 367 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: basement and they never quite make it up. If there 368 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: was anyone even teaching them how to do the stuff, yeah, 369 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and there were, and there were definite exceptions 370 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: here and there, um, but by no means to the 371 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: same degree as the opportunities that men were afforded. And 372 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: even if you were a super talented and super ambitious 373 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: woman who had a lot of great ideas and a 374 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: lot to say with your work, or even if you 375 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: were really ambitious in academia, then you were considered unladylike. 376 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: You know. Then we get back to Heya Kant's woman 377 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: with a beard, A woman a scholar might as well 378 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: have a beard, um. And it wasn't just this idea 379 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: that she's ugly, but the belief that exerting your brain 380 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: power too much would ruin your uterus. Yeah, and if 381 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: we look at the example of Rosa Vonnor, who she 382 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: died in she's one of art history's most accomplished female painters, 383 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: and it's worth noting what her life was like to 384 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: look at kind of what it took for a woman 385 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: to rise through the ranks basically, and she not only 386 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: had an encouraging artistic father, but she also was in 387 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: a Boston marriage with fellow artist Natalie MICUs, which I 388 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: mean she didn't have children, she didn't have a husband 389 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: that she had to do everything for, you know, she 390 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: didn't have to fit into that tight box of being 391 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: the typical housewife of the era, which just goes to 392 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: show how important it is to have the time and 393 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: mental space to be able to create. I mean this 394 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: reminds me reading about her encouraging father. It just reminds 395 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: me of people like astronomer Caroline Herschel, who also had 396 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: an encouraging father. He taught all of his children, male 397 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: or female, how to play musical instruments, and she was 398 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: encouraged by his pushing her and her brothers to be 399 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: educated well in Rose Bandur's biography also reminds me first 400 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: of our episode on Boston Marriages, with the resounding theme 401 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: of it taking not getting married, not becoming a housewife, 402 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: and not having kids for the earliest generation of white women. 403 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: We should note um going off to college and really 404 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: making a life for themselves on their own independently, and 405 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: also um devoting their lives to activism and suffrage a 406 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: lot of times like a Jane Adams um. But then 407 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: if we look at more of the artistic side, it 408 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: reminds me of our episode on the White Mormorian Flock 409 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: about women's sculptors of the time and how first of 410 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: all they had to leave the United States because they 411 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: would just get you know, brushed aside a state side, 412 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: and so they would go over to Europe and it 413 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: required patronage. So for someone like Edmonia Lewis, who was 414 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: a woman of color at the time and also a 415 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: sculptor over in Europe, UM, it took a lot of support, 416 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: even more support for her to achieve the greatness that 417 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: she did. And even so we don't know really in 418 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: or where she died or how she lived the rest 419 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: of her life. Even stories about her early life are 420 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: sort of legend. You know, we know that she went 421 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: to school, she went to college, she left there was 422 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, she she received a lot of discrimination and 423 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: abuse because of her race, and that she went over 424 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: and was part of this white Marmorian flock in Rome 425 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: with Harriet Hosmer at all. Um. But even so, even 426 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: getting all of the attention for her amazing abilities, like, 427 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: we still don't know much about her life. Well, and 428 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: that goes to the glaring over a sight and everything 429 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: that we read honestly of how all of this applies 430 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: to both historically and in contemporary times, to women of 431 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: color and people of color in general, because I think that, 432 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about the art conversation, um, it 433 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: would apply to men and women of color alike. And uh, 434 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: with the exception though, of something like jazz. And this 435 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: was written about by Nicole t Rustin in a paper 436 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: called Mary Lou Williams plays like a Man, gender genius 437 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: indifference in Black music discourse, and she describes how UH 438 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: jazz musicians genius musical genius was interpreted as an expression 439 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: of masculinity, and Rustin writes quote myths about black musicians 440 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: genius include likening them to superheroes, preachers, revolutionaries, and powerful 441 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: voices speaking to the need for truth and equality. They're 442 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: black men embodying ideas of manhood that is, their self 443 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: determining and masculinity such as their capacity for expressing emotional 444 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: or metaphysical states like being cool or spiritual or defiant. 445 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: So you have a similar kind of gender dynamic going on, 446 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: uh within as and of course the double discrimination then 447 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: that women of color experience in that community, even though 448 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: you did have standouts like Mary Lou Williams. And we 449 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: are going to discuss more factors in holding women back 450 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: from that genius label when we come right back from 451 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: a quick break. So our conversation about gender and genius 452 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: is especially timely, Caroline, because the day before we came 453 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: into the podcast studio to record this episode, a new 454 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: study dropped looking at exactly this thing we've been talking 455 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: about UM, and it echoes a lot of other research 456 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: that we are going to get into in the second 457 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: half of the podcast. And this most recent study came 458 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: from Kristin Elmore at Cornell and myro Luna Lucero at 459 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: Columbia University. And essentially what they found how our metaphors 460 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: of how we talk about genius, those light bulb moments, 461 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: those sparks of inspiration, that instantaneous quality, the inflamed parts 462 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: that Russo talked, Yes, Russo's brain on fire, UM. Those 463 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: are also masculine gendered implicitly, whereas when we think about 464 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: women innovators, we often associate them more with nurturing a seedling. Yes, 465 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: their study was really interesting. So they gave people some 466 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: paragraphs to read talking about a male inventor, and they 467 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: described in the different paragraphs they used the spark of 468 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: inspiration type of lightbulb metaphor for his invention uh, and 469 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: the second they said that it was more of a 470 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: seed that had been planted and nurtured with hard work 471 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: and time. And in the third paragraph, if there was 472 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: no metaphor atal and they found that his the inventor's 473 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: status as a genius was doubted or downplayed or not 474 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: thought of quite as highly when it was described as 475 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: a seedling that had grown over time. That it really 476 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: took the more masculine view of the lightbulb genius moment 477 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: for people to feel like, yes, yes, this is a 478 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: true genius, unless the subject in question was a woman, 479 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: in which case we were totally fine with it being 480 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: more of a nurturing seedling approach to it. So these 481 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: study our authors suggested that perhaps there is even more 482 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: pressure that men might subconsciously feel to um recount their 483 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: discoveries as those light bulb moments, well, pressure to recount 484 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: their experiences that but also taking into account the idea 485 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: that if you male or female, feel like you lack 486 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: that you know, internal fire, that light bulb, that spark, 487 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: will maybe I'm not a genius, Maybe this isn't for me, 488 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: maybe it's not my true passion, or I'm not good 489 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: enough at it. If I don't have this spark or 490 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: this light bulb that everybody talks about, this is what 491 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: genius is supposed to be, right, and to me, that 492 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: just makes it seem like the idea of genius is 493 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: tenuous at best if our concept is so easily rocked 494 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: by whether your accomplishments or a seedling that you grew 495 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: over time or a lightbulb that came on one morning. Well, 496 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 1: and this is where the FAB hypothesis comes in, because 497 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: basically what you're describing is this thing called field specific 498 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: ability beliefs, and it reminds me a lot of stereotype 499 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: threat because it has a similar outcome and it's a 500 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: relatively new area of research, but so far the studies 501 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: totally support it. So what the FAB hypothesis maintains is 502 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: that the more academic fields emphasize goodwill hunting style genius 503 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: for success the quote unquote raw intellectual talent, the less 504 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: diverse they are, and institutionally this can also lead to 505 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: pipeline problems because potential candidates might be overlooked due to 506 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: cultural assumptions of their own genius ness. Even though statistically 507 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: f y I American women surpassed men and earning doctorate 508 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: degrees in two thousand two, but men are still considered 509 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the academic geniuses. And you know, I think that I 510 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: hate that the idea of the raw intellectual talent thing 511 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: could be holding people back because so much of it 512 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: goes to do you have the space and time? Like 513 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: we said earlier, do you have parents who will foster 514 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: your creativity, your talents, your abilities, your inventiveness. Do you 515 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: have you know, a great education, Did you pursue a 516 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: great education? Were you curious? And I mean one great 517 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: modern example of that would be the brilliant Brittany x Line. 518 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, she became the youngest African 519 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 1: American woman accepted to an Ivy League school at University 520 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania at just fifteen years old, and she graduated 521 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: at nineteen to become America's youngest African American engineer. The 522 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: woman speaks seven languages, okay, uh, And she did have 523 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: a mom who not only encouraged her innate abilities and 524 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't let her daughter quit like piano lessons 525 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: or whatever if she was like, I don't know, is 526 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: it's too hard? But her mom was also deeply involved 527 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: at her school. And this was true for both Brittany 528 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: and Britney's brother. And so ah, there we have what 529 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier about like, uh, you know, trades, whether 530 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: it's painting or sculpture or woodworking, or whatever getting passed 531 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: down from father to son. Here we have an encouraging 532 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: parent clearing room for her daughter to achieve and become 533 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: that genius, which obviously your ability to do that is 534 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: going to depend on a lot of circumstances as well. 535 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: It's it's easier for some parents to be able to 536 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: do that, to have the resources to do that, versus others. 537 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. When we talk about pipeline issues, 538 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: especially from the classroom and the science classroom all the 539 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: way up to professorships, being really really really smart and 540 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: making really really really good grades and writing amazing papers 541 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: as a woman sometimes is not good enough. There was 542 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: a study publish in October in the journal Nature Geoscience 543 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: which found that women are half as likely to receive 544 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,959 Speaker 1: excellent letters of recommendation versus men, regardless of who's writing 545 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: the letter. So it's not just you know, men being 546 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: Jean Jacques Rousseau's to women, um, But it seems to 547 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: be this implicit bias at work, and the study authors 548 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: think that this might help explain why the proportion of 549 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: women in geoscience drops from in PhD classrooms to ten 550 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: in professorships, and that also controls for the quote unquote 551 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: work life balance issues UM that we hear about in 552 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 1: terms of women having a really hard time um gaining 553 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: tenure in sem professions being professed stem field professors. And 554 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: this study replicated results of research also examining letters of recommendation. 555 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: When it comes to people in biochemistry and chemistry, men 556 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: are likelier to be described as trailblazers, brilliant and scientific leaders, 557 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: whereas and this ring is so true to me, whereas 558 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: women are described as being very productive, very knowledgeable, and 559 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: possessing very good skill sets. We have more grindstone words 560 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: associated with us. But you know what, we gotta be 561 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: really good with time management and productivity because we probably 562 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: have a lot of stuff to do it at home, 563 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: like childcare and housework. But to me, this really highlights 564 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: how easy it is for so many people to say 565 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: there's no problem, there's no sexism at work. Um, what's 566 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: wrong with saying someone has a very good skill set? 567 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: Is that not good enough for you? You're just finding 568 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: and I mean I'm specifically referring to whether it's men 569 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: or women writing the letters of recommending stion that women 570 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: tend to get described as excellent less because if you 571 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: can't see it. If you can't see that you or 572 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: your colleague has that bias, and you don't think you do, 573 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: you're just simply using different words to describe the woman 574 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: than the man. Like it can be hard if unless 575 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: you're thinking very critically and having some real talk with 576 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: yourself to identify and root out that sexism, which is 577 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: why these conversations about unconscious and implicit biases are so 578 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: important for us really pushing for legit gender equality and 579 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: representation UM. And it's also helpful for us whether we 580 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: are people writing the letters of recommendation or if we're 581 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: people just sitting in the classroom looking at our teacher 582 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: or our professor, to keep in mind how we interpret 583 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: their intelligence and to dig a little bit deeper into 584 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: the fab hypothesis for a moment um these field specific 585 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: ability beliefs that we might take with us UM they 586 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: can affect us internally, like outside of any letters of 587 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: recommendation or anything like that. And this goes to a 588 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: study published in in the journal Science which surveyed grad students, 589 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: post docs, and faculty at nine US research institutions to 590 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: rate the importance of both having an innate gift or 591 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: talent or a special aptitude that quote just can't be taught, 592 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: versus motivation and sustained effort to succeed in their fields. 593 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: So basically asking like a geoscientist, for instance, like do 594 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,879 Speaker 1: you need to be a genius or can you get 595 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: away with like working really hard? Um. And even after 596 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: accounting for gender differences in women's academic preferences and family 597 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: balancing acts, more men than women obtain pH ds in 598 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: those brilliance fields like philosophy, music theory, and composition going 599 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: back to Mary and alsop and physics, and women respondents 600 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: tended to also emphasize the importance of hard work over 601 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: genius compared to men who emphasize more genius over hard work. Um. 602 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: Whereas if you look at fields like neuroscience and molecular 603 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: biology that have much closer gender parity, you see the 604 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: responses more emphasizing hard work versus genius from both from 605 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: women respondent emphasizing and they emphasize it more in those 606 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: fields versus uh, the men. But that's clear that we're 607 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,479 Speaker 1: walking into those fields believing that hard work can earn 608 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 1: you success. Yeah, so there's a lot of internalizing about 609 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: innate abilities, about something being within your grasp about imposter syndrome, 610 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: what makes a true genius? And you better believe that 611 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: those uh study results also held for African Americans. So 612 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: this is not just an issue of gender, because rarely 613 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: is anything solely an issue of gender. Um. But we 614 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: also have to keep in mind too that we have 615 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: a responsibility to mind our own unconscious biases, not only 616 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: if we are writing letters of recommendations, but also if 617 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: we're sitting in the classroom, if we are judging someone 618 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: else's intellect in front of us um. And this was 619 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: emphasized by a March study published in Plus one which 620 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: analyze student reviews on rate my professor dot com. And 621 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: the study got so much pressed because it found that 622 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: brilliant was used to describe male professors compared to female 623 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: professors by a one point eight to one ratio and 624 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: genius a three point one to one ratio, whereas there 625 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: was little difference gender difference in descriptors like amazing or excellent, 626 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: funnily enough, but genius, oh my god three to one. Well. 627 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: The use of that genius language was also correlated with 628 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: lower participation by women in African Americans in PhD programs, 629 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: even after controlling for workload g r E scores and 630 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 1: a field's emphasis on abstract thinking. And there's also a 631 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: question of whether these results were kind of weighted because 632 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: in those brilliance fields, you're going to have more dudes 633 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 1: in the classroom, and fellows tend to emphasize genius over 634 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: hard work, so that might skew the results somewhat. You know, 635 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: I hated philosophy when I was in college, but I 636 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: actually loved my full bosophy professor. I've mentioned him on 637 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 1: the podcast before. His name was Dr Bueno, not kidding, 638 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, he was a dude, and my t a 639 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: was a dude. But like it was such a friendly 640 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: I really, I'm not joking. It was like such a 641 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: friendly atmosphere. The teacher was so great and it's not 642 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: his fault that I hate philosophy. And then I was like, no, 643 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,399 Speaker 1: that the chair is there. I'm not going to write 644 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: a paper asking whether the chair is truly there. It's there, 645 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: it's next to my desk. I can see it and 646 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: touch it. Stop with this philosophy stuff. Um so yeah, 647 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: if I had had a natural both proclivity and tolerance 648 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: for philosophy, um, you know, I think having a friendly 649 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: classroom atmosphere would definitely have been beneficial. And like everything 650 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: on stuff, Mom never told you, everything eventually circles around 651 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:58,439 Speaker 1: to the mirror that is pop culture and how men 652 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: and women and gene Is and like mad scientists are 653 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: depicted in media, and what that tells us about how 654 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: gendered we consider genius to be. Oh absolutely right now, 655 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: I am looking at a list on Live science dot 656 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: com mad Geniuses, ten odd tales about famous science scientists, 657 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: and I wanted to mention it because the mad genius 658 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: trope in particular is almost exclusively men, and this list, 659 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: for instance, is all men. You've got Einstein, You've got Tesla, 660 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: you have just not not a single not a single woman. Um. 661 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: And in pop culture, the characters of like a monk 662 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: or house, you know, you usually have these kind of cantankerous, 663 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: eccentric genius men Doc Brown from Back to the Future. 664 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: Then on X Files you have Molder who's like totally 665 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: out there, whereas Scully is more she's the no woman, 666 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,919 Speaker 1: yes yes, um, And that's often appearing you see where 667 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: you have, you know, the mad genius men and the 668 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: rational woman to balance him. Gene Wilder's Dr Frankenstein Rip 669 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,439 Speaker 1: you know, gen Wilder, and you know what I think. 670 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: I think that's where we start, Frankenstein. I mean, hello, 671 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: can we get a lady Frankenstein already? I would frankly 672 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: love to see that. I'd frankly love to see that. Yeah, 673 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: there was a lovely matrix that we found over at 674 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: Dorkley of all of the both animated and live action 675 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: mad geniuses in pop culture, and there are but three 676 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:54,359 Speaker 1: women on here, including Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time. Yeah. 677 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: I think my favorite on this diagram is Professor Farnsworth 678 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: from Futurama. Absolutely, any any character from Futurama is my 679 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,280 Speaker 1: favorite character. Well. I hadn't thought about that either until 680 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, um, having to sit and think about it 681 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: for this episode. But it makes sense because here's the thing. 682 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: You have a male mad scientist and he is still 683 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: a genius. But if you have a female mad scientist, 684 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: she's nuts, she's probably dangerous, she wish, she's probably a 685 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: which Frankenstein. Yeah, Frankenstein is uh. And I'm so curious 686 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: to know from listeners, because you all are so pop 687 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: culture of savvy, what exceptions there are in pop culture 688 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: whether you think that there is a better representation happening 689 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: of women geniuses on screen, or if we are kind 690 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: of still stuck in this trope because pop culture absolutely 691 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: matters because of visibility matters, and it all goes into 692 00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: and feeds this same aim unconscious bias that a genius 693 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: is a man. I mean, it's taken us up until 694 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: quite recently to figure out that a scientist is not 695 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,839 Speaker 1: always a man. So I think that this is um 696 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: a just a really interesting thought exercise on the construct 697 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: of genius and be a worthwhile discussion of our gendering 698 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: of intellect and how so outdated. Jean Jacq Grousseau, get 699 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: out of here. No, thanks, bond your no. I think 700 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: that's Italian. You know what I mean. We're talking about genius, 701 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: right or a war. The listeners save us, throw us 702 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: a lifeline with your letters, and I know that there 703 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,759 Speaker 1: are a lot of folks in academia and research who 704 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: listened to us. Oh, we're so cure as to hear 705 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: from you about whether you feel this in the atmosphere 706 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 1: of your institutions that you're working in as well, if 707 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,640 Speaker 1: it's something that you have noticed or experienced yourself. Let 708 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 1: us know all of your genius thoughts and ideas. Mom 709 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is where you 710 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: can send them. You can also tweet us at mom 711 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a 712 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you when we come 713 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. All right. I have 714 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,800 Speaker 1: one here from Susie in response to our pants suit episode, 715 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 1: and she uses her pants suit power dressing type of 716 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 1: stuff for a different reason than some of us. She said, 717 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: your pants suit episode was one of my very favorites. 718 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,479 Speaker 1: I work in a forest preserve, so suits blazers another 719 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,799 Speaker 1: typical business where and not a big factor in my 720 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,520 Speaker 1: work wardrobe. I might bust out a blazer a nice 721 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: pair of work slax on a semi and ual basis. 722 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,919 Speaker 1: I do own these pieces from previous jobs in academia 723 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: and nonprofit administration, and I recently discovered a use for 724 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: these sad neglected blazers and suits at the back of 725 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,399 Speaker 1: my closet. Having suffered from a lifelong, nearly paralyzing fear 726 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: of needles, I have avoided getting shots, i VS and 727 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,400 Speaker 1: blood tests at almost any cost. When I have to 728 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,280 Speaker 1: be anywhere near needles, I start shaking uncontrollably and most 729 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,400 Speaker 1: often tears and sue. However, my doctor is requiring me 730 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,439 Speaker 1: to have blood tests every other day for the month 731 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 1: of October, and I find that wearing a power outfit 732 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,879 Speaker 1: like a pant suit or blazer helps me feel much 733 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: braver in the philopotomous chair. I'm not sure this is 734 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: a thing that would work for everyone with a phobia 735 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: of needles or other similar situations, but for me, dressing 736 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,720 Speaker 1: like somebody who is in a position of power gives 737 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 1: me the feeling that I'm far more powerful than the 738 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: needles I fear. I'm proud to say that I haven't 739 00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,839 Speaker 1: cried during a single blood draw so far. Thank you 740 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: for your amazing podcast. I learned so much and love 741 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,799 Speaker 1: laughing along with both of you. Dude, Susie, I need 742 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: to try this. I am I like break out in 743 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,840 Speaker 1: a cold sweat over my whole body. I have passed 744 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,399 Speaker 1: out getting needle stuff, whether it's shots or blood drawn 745 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 1: or vaccines or whatever. Uh So I might I might 746 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,200 Speaker 1: break out the blazer from my next trip to the doctor. 747 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: From my physical genius idea genius right there. So I 748 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Kristen with a K, who 749 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 1: is writing about our episode on Women and Yogurt, and 750 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,919 Speaker 1: she writes, let me just start by saying, I love 751 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,279 Speaker 1: listening to the podcast every week. I never thought I 752 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: would find yogurt so interesting. Oh my god, Kristen already 753 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,359 Speaker 1: the best compliment. My husband and I started tracking our 754 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,280 Speaker 1: food lately, and yogurt has become one of our favorite 755 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: low calorie, high protein snacks. The marketing portion of the 756 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,439 Speaker 1: podcast is hilarious and yet so true. My husband, during 757 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 1: a recent grocery trip, picked up a large package of 758 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,879 Speaker 1: the Hurt. His choice was based purely on the black packaging. 759 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,880 Speaker 1: He says that it seemed like the man lead choice, 760 00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 1: but that brand caused fifty more than mine and there 761 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: was no noticeable taste difference. Keep doing what you do. 762 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: The show is fantastic. Oh my god, Brogert Brogert works. 763 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,399 Speaker 1: I had no idea. Thanks so much for sharing that, 764 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: um and PS. I ate yogurt on my way into work, 765 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: and I think of the podcast now every time I 766 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:34,160 Speaker 1: eat yogurt, and it's I kind of love that UM. 767 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: I would also like to point out that after our 768 00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,000 Speaker 1: yogurt episode, I went out and bought two things of 769 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: yogurt because I was like the Internet told me that 770 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: with my lactose intolerance, I don't have to worry about it. 771 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: Not true, friends, But also we got another email from 772 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,360 Speaker 1: someone who was like, Caroline, Hey, if I know you 773 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: said on the podcast that you're not lactose intolerant, your 774 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 1: lactose sensitive. But if you're like having um this problem 775 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 1: and this problem and this problem, uh, you're liked is intolerant. 776 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,800 Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, girl, I know, but yet another genius. 777 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,680 Speaker 1: I know all these genius women writing in and fellas. 778 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,359 Speaker 1: Thank you all so much and keep your letters coming. Mom. 779 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 780 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,360 Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media 781 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts 782 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: with our sources. So you can learn even more about 783 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: the gendering of genius, head on over to stuff Mom 784 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:31,520 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com. We're more on this and 785 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot 786 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 1: com