1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Everybody's talking about super foods, nutritionally dense foods super beneficial

2
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,319
Speaker 1: to your health. Did you know that beats are one

3
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 1: of the most powerful superfoods, loaded with an important nutrient

4
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,639
Speaker 1: to increase your blood flow and hence your energy. But

5
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,000
Speaker 1: who wants to eat a pound of beats every day?

6
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,919
Speaker 1: Now you can get the super benefits of beats and

7
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 1: a powerful concentrated super food drink super Beats made from

8
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: beats grown to exacting standards and concentrated into super food crystals.

9
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,280
Speaker 1: Super Beats promotes the body's natural ability for healthy circulation

10
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,519
Speaker 1: and increased energy. You want the benefits of a powerful

11
00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: superfood called eight hundred five one six oh six eight three,

12
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,560
Speaker 1: Or go to Nancy's Beats dot com with a first

13
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: order get an extra thirty days of super Beats free

14
00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 1: plus indicators trips to see how super Beats works for

15
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: you and free shipping eight hundred five one six oh

16
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 1: six A three, Or go to Nancy's Beats dot com

17
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 1: Today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious ex M

18
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. Anything Water anybody? Oh, how

19
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,640
Speaker 1: we love to be in love? Isn't it awesome? I

20
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 1: mean it's euphoric, but then you end up dead at

21
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 1: the bottom of the Hudson River. Okay, how did that happen?

22
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,760
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

23
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: being with us. I'm talking about none other than Angelica Griswold.

24
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: She was sent to marry her true love, Vincent Via

25
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,960
Speaker 1: for a They had been living together. Everything looked great.

26
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: They had all the same interest They apparently had a

27
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 1: very very exciting Um let me just say sex life.

28
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 1: There's really no a good way to put that. And

29
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: then everything goes sideways. What are the interests that they shared?

30
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: Was kayaking? But then this take a listen to this

31
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 1: nine on one call. Tell me exactly what happened? We

32
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: are kayaking, my Nancy? What's all? He's in the war

33
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 1: right now? I did you have a life that son? Yeah? Yeah,

34
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: something nobody. You can't hear that. I don't see any more,

35
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 1: all right, Angelica? Angelica? Can you hear me? Angelique? Are

36
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 1: you still with me? Okay? Angelica? Can you hear me? Angelica? Hey?

37
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,839
Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Hi? Did you hear me? Now?

38
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 1: Right here? Okay? I didn't hear you. I don't see anymore. Okay,

39
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,680
Speaker 1: did he have oh all right, we've got help on

40
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: the way. Okay. Did he have a light jacket on

41
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 1: when he flipped over? He had a little like a

42
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 1: voting thing. He had said. It wasn't a beast that

43
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,320
Speaker 1: he had something to hold it. He was something that's

44
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: helped him float. But I don't see him. Oh my god,

45
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: can you make your way over towards the cornwall Yall

46
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: club where you see all the lights. Yes, yes, start

47
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,280
Speaker 1: paddling over towards that way. Okay, I'm not worried about myself.

48
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 1: The board him, now, I understand, I understand. Okay, I'm

49
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: gonna plot you down a little bit and that or

50
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 1: like pluting him, vote me down. Just keep going. I

51
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: see the blow you say, the boat now, but will

52
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 1: you gonna put the phone down? Just keep it over,

53
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: don't hang up on me, okay, okay, okay. It was

54
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 1: a Sunday evening, and even though it was warm outside

55
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 1: of course for upstate New York, still the water was

56
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 1: cold and dark and the choppy Hudson River. Joining me

57
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,920
Speaker 1: right now, David Hopkins Crime Stories investigative reporter David Hopkins,

58
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,960
Speaker 1: tell me what happened the evening, early evening, still daylight

59
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 1: hours on that Sunday afternoon when Vincent va for A

60
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 1: goes to the bottom of the Hudson River. Well, actually

61
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 1: were they were heading back to the mainland from from

62
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,600
Speaker 1: Bannerman Island and the wind had started to pick up,

63
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 1: as I understand, was going on seven o'clock or so,

64
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: and the way it was laid out was the wind

65
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 1: was picking up. They were gusting up to sixteen miles,

66
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,120
Speaker 1: the waves were at three to five feet. They were

67
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 1: fighting again strong contu the currents there and apparently water

68
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,400
Speaker 1: began to go into the cockpit area of Vince's kayak

69
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 1: and before two long with he was again like you said,

70
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,000
Speaker 1: it was the currents were allowing him to further and

71
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: further away and he capsized. And with the temperatures at

72
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit that is borderline frigid, and uh, it doesn't

73
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,599
Speaker 1: take long for your body to start to succumb. So

74
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 1: that's where the nine one one call picks up. Well,

75
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, to Karen Smith joining me,

76
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,839
Speaker 1: renowned forensics expert, Karen, you and I have performed many

77
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 1: many experiments together, scientific experiments, but how quickly does your

78
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: body reach the ambiance temperature of the water the water

79
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: was much colder than the the air. You know what,

80
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: Your body is going to succumb very quickly. You know,

81
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,600
Speaker 1: you you don't radiate body heat and water. It's not

82
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 1: an insulating instrument. It's going to disperse your body heat

83
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: very very quickly. And degree water. You have only a

84
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: few minutes to get out of that water before you

85
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,440
Speaker 1: go into hypothermia and you succumb to it. You lose

86
00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: your breath and you're going to drown. Well, I'm I'm

87
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,160
Speaker 1: projecting because I've dived many, many times, hundreds of times

88
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 1: literally before the twins were born. Then I hung up

89
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,480
Speaker 1: my wet suit because I thought it might be too dangerous,

90
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 1: and we would go diving in cool water, but I

91
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 1: would always wear, you know, long sleeve, long pants, long

92
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: legs wet suit. So I'm not sure what the Afora

93
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,919
Speaker 1: was wearing, but I know this. You can't stay in

94
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,039
Speaker 1: water that cold for long. Now. According to someone in

95
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 1: the note, they say, and I'm referring to Jeff Schatt,

96
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,359
Speaker 1: the commodore at the Cornwall Yacht Club in the Hudson

97
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 1: Valley that's off the Hudson River. It was about seven

98
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,320
Speaker 1: thirty by the time he gets a phone call that

99
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 1: there was a situation capsizing of a kayak. He says

100
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 1: the water was quote choppy, three to four foot swells.

101
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,560
Speaker 1: I know it's a river, but if you're familiar at

102
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 1: all with the Hudson River at that particular spot at

103
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 1: Bannerman Island, and there's an old castle the Bannerman Islands

104
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: just nothing more than enough dirt, enough land out in

105
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 1: the middle of the Hudson to build kind of an

106
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: old old castle on um and then there's not a

107
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 1: lot of land around it. It's just a tourist destination

108
00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 1: to boat up there or go out there, and you'll

109
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 1: see people looking around that the ruins of that old structure.

110
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 1: But it's very choppy and cold out there. I've been

111
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 1: out there many many times. Immediately help was called. Now

112
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 1: by then, isn't it true? To David Hopkins Crime Stories

113
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,920
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, she Angelica Graswold was also in the water.

114
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 1: Not only was Vincent via fo A who was in

115
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 1: a separate kayak he had been swa followed up by

116
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 1: the river, but she was now in the water too.

117
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 1: She had had her own accident. Is that right, David Hopkins? Well, yes,

118
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: she did, as a matter of fact, that apparently is it.

119
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 1: As its story unfolded, she was trying to get closer

120
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 1: and closer to the capsized boat with Vince, and then

121
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: she too was was overcome and was in the water herself.

122
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: Before you go any further, who is Angelica Graswold also

123
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,560
Speaker 1: Angelica Lipska. She's from a Latvia when it was still

124
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 1: part of the Soviet Union. Now, as soon as the

125
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,480
Speaker 1: iron curtain was lifted, she was looking for opportunity. She

126
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: got a nanny job in the US and by the

127
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 1: time she meets Vincent via for a she had been

128
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: married and divorced twice, but so had he. Now, according

129
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 1: two people that know them in relatives, it was quote

130
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: love at first sight. Vincent viafore was eleven years older

131
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 1: than her, with a great job a project manager with

132
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 1: the New York State. What happened next? Apparently they were

133
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 1: very happy together. Karen Stark, renowned psychologists joining me out

134
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,199
Speaker 1: of New York. They had the perfect relationship, Kring. What

135
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,320
Speaker 1: was it like for her to see her groom to

136
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 1: be disappear under the choppy waters of the Hudson River, Well,

137
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 1: you would think, Nancy, Dad, it was devastating and she

138
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 1: does say that it was a tragic accident. Well, this

139
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,200
Speaker 1: guy was known for barbecuing, ribs, dance moves and being

140
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 1: a party guy when he wasn't working hard. Never known

141
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 1: to cheat, gamble, booze it up, nothing like that. Apparently

142
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 1: the two very very happy until suddenly things went sideways.

143
00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:01,160
Speaker 1: Back to David Hopkins Crime Stories investigative reporter, she was

144
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 1: brought in for questioning, what if anything did we learn? Well,

145
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 1: she actually began to talk a little bit about about

146
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,040
Speaker 1: the kayak itself, about leaving the plug off of the kayak.

147
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute, what did

148
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 1: you say about the plug coming out of the kayak? Well, yeah,

149
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,840
Speaker 1: there was a plug. It's called the drain plug, and uh,

150
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 1: they would be talking about that. Apparently she had removed

151
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 1: the drain plug from the kayak before they actually left

152
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,120
Speaker 1: in England to begin the Train's right, David Hopkins is right.

153
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 1: Angelica Graswoll admits she's sabotaged Vincent's kayak before he drowned.

154
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: New York State Police investigators say this woman admits she

155
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 1: removed the plug on the kayak and manipulated his kayak paddle.

156
00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 1: They even say in addition to removing the drain plug,

157
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 1: she was pushing a floating paddle away from him after

158
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 1: his kayak capsize. Imagine that you're out in the water,

159
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 1: You've got three and four foot waves of black water,

160
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,840
Speaker 1: choppy water coming over you, you don't have on a

161
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 1: life jacket, You're trying to stay up, and then you

162
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 1: actually see your fiancee pushing a paddle away from you.

163
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 1: What hey, Look, don't take my word for it. Listen

164
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,640
Speaker 1: to the audio tapes of her interrogation that we have obtained.

165
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 1: Listen he did? He have it straight out to Karen Smith,

166
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: forensics expert. Way In Karen Well, I did a little

167
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: bit of research. I kayaked quite a bit in the

168
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,240
Speaker 1: rivers of Tennessee in Florida, and kayaking is difficult to

169
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,200
Speaker 1: stay balanced on its own. The plug that was removed

170
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: is called a scupper plug. And the reason that it's there,

171
00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 1: and there are several different versions of this, but the

172
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,479
Speaker 1: reason that it's there is to keep water out, especially

173
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 1: in what choppy conditions, because you're naturally going to get

174
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: a little bit of water in a kayak. It's designed

175
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: for a little bit, but when you cross that threshold

176
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 1: into too much water, you're going to have an imbalance,

177
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 1: not only in three to five foot ways. I can't

178
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,120
Speaker 1: imagine kayaking and conditions like that, but the water is

179
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,440
Speaker 1: going to be slashing around the kayak. You're going to capsize.

180
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 1: So that plug is there for a purpose, and if

181
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 1: it was purposefully removed tells me she knew what she

182
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 1: was doing. In addition to pushing his paddle away, that's

183
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,439
Speaker 1: enough for me. Well, not only that, hold on to

184
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 1: your seat, Karen Smith, because the paddles of a kayak

185
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 1: are held on by something called a sea clip. She

186
00:12:53,960 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 1: had actually disconnected them. Listen before Okay, and trip did

187
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 1: you pick that rand? I didn't hae the league. Okay,

188
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: it's not just that. The singing, the chanting that goes

189
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 1: on during their interrogation tape, it reminds me a lot

190
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 1: of m Jodi Arius, who started a rendition of Oh

191
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 1: Holy Night, which you know I must have listened to

192
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,439
Speaker 1: five hundred times. But this woman does the bizarre behavior

193
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 1: during the investigation tapes that she's being interrogated was right there,

194
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,120
Speaker 1: you know, you know what, Listen for yourself. Let's hear

195
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 1: us the more of her interrogation tape. What are your

196
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 1: feelings and emotion, knowing that it is about the how

197
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:51,440
Speaker 1: when you're going k a hot and I did lead

198
00:13:53,640 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 1: what's the demons? I by that thing yp He needed

199
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,680
Speaker 1: to be gone when the hem a side went out

200
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,680
Speaker 1: to the lady being so. Even after she admits two

201
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 1: pulling the plug, to removing the paddles, to pushing them

202
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 1: away from Vincent as he's drowning, she comes up with

203
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 1: an excuse as to why he needed to be dead. Listen,

204
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: you watch him in the water with a part of

205
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 1: you was saying, my worries are going now and I'm

206
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:58,240
Speaker 1: freeing and we're all good boy. Before that, he was

207
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 1: gonna be gone him. When Angelica Griswald spoke to police,

208
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: she insisted, quote, I loved him. I'm not a murderer,

209
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 1: but that wasn't the end. She also says, I didn't

210
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: kill him. I loved him, I'm not a killer. I'm

211
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: a good person. Take a listen to what she says

212
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 1: to a BC's I just want to ask you so

213
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 1: you have a chance to answer this question. Did you

214
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: kill Vince that day? I didn't kill Did you do

215
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: anything that you knew might lead to him being hurt?

216
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 1: For him dying in the River. No, I loved him,

217
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. You never wished that he was

218
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 1: no longer in your life. You never did anything to

219
00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: him that day that would have either actually at his

220
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: death or that you knew had a good chance of

221
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: causing his death. I loved him, I did not want

222
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: to kill him, and I didn't do anything to kill him.

223
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: But that is not the end of the story. Let

224
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: me pause very briefly and thank our partner making today's

225
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: investigation into the most recent break in the Kayak killer

226
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 1: murder mystery, making it possible. It's legal Zoom. You know

227
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: New Year's madness is over. We can't use that as

228
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 1: an excuse anymore. It's time to write our own success

229
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 1: stories for two thousand and eighteen. Legal Zoom can help

230
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: you make that possible. Will this be the year you

231
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: finally get serious about launching and running your own business?

232
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 1: Will this be the year you rest easier knowing you

233
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 1: finally took care of your family's future with the right

234
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 1: estate plan. As a matter of fact, legal Zoom has

235
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: been help helping people just like us take care of

236
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 1: dreams and responsibilities over six staying years. The good news

237
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 1: is legal Zoom It's not a law firm. They're not

238
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 1: lawyers piling up billable hours behind your back, but they

239
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,159
Speaker 1: are a nationwide network of independent lawyers that get you

240
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,720
Speaker 1: on the right path and keep you there. And it's

241
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,120
Speaker 1: all at your fingertips. Whether you want to take your

242
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,479
Speaker 1: business to the next level or take control of your

243
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,120
Speaker 1: family's future within a state plan. Legal Zoom plugs right

244
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 1: into your life with that nationwide network of independent lawyers.

245
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 1: They also ensure pricing is up front. Start writing your

246
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,400
Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen success story at legal zoom dot

247
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: com right now, and for special savings, enter promo code

248
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 1: and Nancy in a n c Y in the referral

249
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: box at check out legal Zoom where life meets legal

250
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: legal zoom dot com. Thank you for that. He did

251
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 1: not want to. Yeah, straight back to what we're learning

252
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 1: right now. Regarding the kayak killing murder mystery, that's really

253
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg, because what she says

254
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 1: after after he's dead to Karen Start, New York psychologist,

255
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 1: is that she didn't like having sex with him anymore,

256
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: that he had suggested the idea of threesomes and she

257
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 1: just wanted nothing to do with it. You know that

258
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 1: she could break up, Karen, you don't have to pull

259
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 1: the kayak plug in the middle of the Hudson River. Well,

260
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 1: they could break up, that's for sure, Nancy, Except um,

261
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: if there's anything that can be gained from him dying,

262
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 1: and why would she just want to break up? Well,

263
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 1: here's the thing to actually Wilcott joining US lawyer and advocate.

264
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: What she tells ABC's tent is very different from what

265
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 1: she told the police in the interrogation. And the interrogation

266
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 1: she says, hold on, I've got to get the very,

267
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 1: very best quote and then we'll actually listen to it.

268
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: I wanted him dead and now he's gone, and I'm

269
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,120
Speaker 1: okay with it. That's what she says in an eleven

270
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: hour interrogation. As a matter of fact, hold on, Ashley,

271
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 1: listen to this. Right, I'm asking me the question. I

272
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,399
Speaker 1: want to hear that I want. I want you to

273
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: tell me truth. Wanted the answer to that question. I wanted, Alga,

274
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 1: what is the true answer to that question? Right? I

275
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: want to be dead and now be gone. That's not

276
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 1: at all what she tells. I'm not a killer. I

277
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 1: would never do anything like this. I love him. But

278
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 1: Ashley now comes a specter I'm nearly a half a

279
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: million dollar life insurance policy. Yeah yeah, to hey with

280
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: not wanting a threesome. This is about the money, absolutely,

281
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: and it's too little, too late. You've already made your statement.

282
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: It's a prior and consistent statement can be used against

283
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: her in court. And to come out later and say, oh, no,

284
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 1: I loved him so she can get the money is

285
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: exactly what she's done in this case too. Karen Smith,

286
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 1: forensics expert, Karen, I mean, you've seen it all. You've

287
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: worked on so many murder cases. To change your story

288
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: and then come up with some cockamami excuse, like they

289
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: interrogated me too long. I was hungry. I was thirsty

290
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. It was eleven hours, that's it. Nobody

291
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 1: beat her in the head with a phone book. I mean,

292
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: she just I don't understand how she could even suggest

293
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: now that she was forced into this statement. No cop

294
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 1: made her say he wanted a threesome. Absolutely not. It

295
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: wasn't a matter of forcing her to say anything. She

296
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: made these statements of her free will and they weren't

297
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: co worced. You know, when we do murder investigations, we're

298
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 1: looking for three things. Motive means an opportunity. Well, we

299
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: have the means, the plug and the paddle and a

300
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: kayak in three to five foot waves. We have the

301
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: opportunity there out there in the middle of nowhere, and

302
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: the motive. Well, that's about half a million reasons in

303
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: my book for her to commit this crime. Well, this

304
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: really disturbs me that with all of this evidence, all

305
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: of the admissions, all of the cockamami excuses she came

306
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: up with. To David Hopkins, Crimes Roy's investigative reporter, what

307
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: did Angelica Griswold get as a sentence? Everybody, you might

308
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: as well sit down. You may need to lay down

309
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: for this one go ahead. She only got a four

310
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 1: years behind bars. Four years behind bars. Ashley Willcott, lawyer

311
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: and advocate. His family must have gone bersert when that happened.

312
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: Can you imagine for murder manslaughter? I mean, honestly, from

313
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: beginning to end, this smell bad and I cannot imagine

314
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: being a family member who learns that this has happening.

315
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: He's been murdered and that's all you get is four years. Hey,

316
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 1: there was just a sentence I read about that was

317
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 1: a financial crime, embezzlement and it was a hundred and

318
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars and that person was sentenced to serve

319
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: ten years. So where's that right? You embezzle a hundred

320
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand year in jail ten years. You kill

321
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: someone and you're in jail for four Actually her sentence,

322
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: Ashley Angelica grass Wold, just thirty seven years old, got

323
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: the sentence of one and a third to four years

324
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: in the state prison for the death of forty six

325
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 1: year old Vince and Via for a She actually had

326
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 1: even played guilty and that was the bit that that's

327
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: all they could do. Now Here is the shocker. Here

328
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: is the shocker. She's already out, she is out from

329
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: behind bars. It's it's amazing, it's a shock. According to

330
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: the A four A sister, my brother did not deserve

331
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: to have his life in this way. I mean to you.

332
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, death by drowning is a horrible

333
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: way to die. What exactly happens to your body, Well,

334
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: we're dealing with really cold water, Nancy, So your body

335
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: first is going to pretty much go numb. And what's

336
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: going to happen after that is you're going to have

337
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: a reflex. Your your diaphragm is going to contract. You're

338
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: going to want to pull in air. It's a natural reflex.

339
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: No matter how long you try to hold your breath,

340
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. And unfortunately, if you're in that

341
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: choppy water and if you're going under that reflexes instead

342
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: of air, it's going to pull in water and that's

343
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: going to start the drowning process. And unfortunately, um, that's

344
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: what happened in this case. When police asked her during

345
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: her interrogation how it made her feel to watch Via

346
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: for A fighting for his life in the cold, choppy water,

347
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: her response was, quote euphoric, take a listen to this

348
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: to the point that did you feel like this is

349
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: the only way out? That brings us up to the

350
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: here and now? What is the most recent bombshell to

351
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: David Hopkins, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell us, Uh,

352
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: she's already out and uh she's the apparently now seeking

353
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: of money from the life insurance. That's right, David Hopkins.

354
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: The very latest is that the kayak killer, who has

355
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: pled guilty to the death of Vincent via Foray by

356
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: pulling the plug on his kayak in the last hours,

357
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: has announced she wants to claim her fiance's four hundred

358
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: and ninety one thousand dollar life insurance policy. The convicted

359
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Kayak killer just isn't giving up. She's not giving up

360
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: the ghost on trying to profit from her fiance's death,

361
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: and now she's actually taking on his family, his blood relatives,

362
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: for the right to a half a million dollars of

363
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: insurance policy. Karen Start, I mean, does she know no? Shame? Well,

364
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: shame has nothing to do with this, Nancy. When you're

365
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: talking about someone who is capable of killing, they don't

366
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: have a conscience, They don't care about his family. I

367
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: would suspect that this is what she wanted all along.

368
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: She wanted to be able to get ahold of this money,

369
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: a half a million dollars life insurance policy. Now we

370
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: do know, and correct me if I'm wrong. David Hopkins

371
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: that she was listed as a forty five beneficiary on that.

372
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: But when you kill somebody, don't shouldn't you lose your

373
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: rights to the life insurance policy. She is actually contesting

374
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: an effort by the Afores family to bar her from

375
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 1: getting her mits on that money. To as she will

376
00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: caught lawyer and advocate Way in Ashley, I'm stunned. Well,

377
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: let me say this. So, what insurance companies do is

378
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: if there's any fraud, alleged fraud, or intentional willful act

379
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: that interferes with the necessity or ability or appropriateness of

380
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: them to pay out, they fight it. And so the

381
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: fact that she entered a plea and she was sentenced

382
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: to jail time, and she therefore has a conviction for

383
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: this particular crime, rest assured. I do not believe that

384
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: that insurance company is going to pay out that percentage

385
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: to her. Well wait a minute, you think that, right,

386
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: But the reality is the family, his blood relatives are

387
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: actually having to put up a fight. Now, if this

388
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: is any indication about how she rolled, we learned this

389
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: care and Star are New York psychologists joining me. She

390
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: gets out of prison after just a couple of months.

391
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: This is a lot Vian immigrant who watches her fiance

392
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: fight for his life and drown, sinking down to the

393
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: bottom of the Hudson River. She walks out of prison

394
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: and celebrates with martinis and a steak lunch. Yes, she

395
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: walked out just one month after the sentencing, and then

396
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: goes out and has a nice, rare bloody steak and martinis.

397
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: It just looks bad, Hearin. It looks bad and fits

398
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: her profile because this is somebody who intentionally murdered this man.

399
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: She was able to make sure that his kayak would

400
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: not be able to withstand. She played around with those oars.

401
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: Then she's called it a tragic accident. Nothing that she

402
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: does makes sense. So for her this was freedom. She

403
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: got away with it, and she has then the nerve

404
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: to be able to ask to get this money. Because

405
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: she has no conscience, no thought of killing somebody, it

406
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: does not affect her nancy. She went right out and

407
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: headed to an upscale Eatery went up to the second

408
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: floor for a to a private room, where she ordered

409
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: and devoured a thirty eight dollar steak, nice and bloody

410
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: during a two hour lunch started off with a round

411
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: of martinis. I can't tell you how irritated I am

412
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: right now. And I know that family events of the

413
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: AFA is just beside themselves, and now they've got to

414
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: launch a fight with her over his insurance money. You know,

415
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: even if she does get the money, which is very possible,

416
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: the family can sue her for wrongful death. But Ashley Wilcot, lawyer,

417
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: and advocate it's just wrong. She kills him, she gets

418
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: life insurance Paul see, and they have to sue her

419
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: and spend all their money on a rawful death suit,

420
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: and she uses what money she has to live high

421
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: on the hog and for lawyers, I mean Ashley, that's

422
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: not justice, it's not And that's the problem is that

423
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: if she gets her hands on the money are already has,

424
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: it'll be well spent by her before they ever get

425
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: a judgment against her. So there's really no good outcome

426
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: in this case. It's not a just outcome and it's

427
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 1: really ethically morally, it feels bad. It's not right. Let

428
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: me ask you this, what is it here? And start?

429
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: Why is it bothering me so much that she goes

430
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: out that goes straight from the as I call it,

431
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: not the big House but the big doll House, the

432
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: women's correctional facility to see I and go straight out

433
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: for martinis in a bloody steak. It just is rubbing

434
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: me the wrong way. Well, the whole thing steaks. And

435
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: see that's why it's rubbing you the wrong way. How

436
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: could somebody who killed, who murdered and the person and

437
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: who actually did a plea deal so that she could

438
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: get less time and a different kind of sentence winds

439
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: up going out and celebrating knowing that the person that

440
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: she supposedly loved is dead. And I think the thing

441
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: that really gets to you is that she's not even

442
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: pretending that she cares. I mean, come on, Karen Stark,

443
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: some men will ask you to do anything. All you

444
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: have to do is say no. It typically, if she

445
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: didn't want to three some and she didn't want to

446
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: do what he wanted to, say no for Pete's sake,

447
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: break up if you don't like it. Nobody was making

448
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: or stay with him. She'd already been through two husbands

449
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: in the short time she was in the US before

450
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: she watched On, got her tentacles wrapped around v A

451
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: four eight. Now he's dead. I pitted the next guy

452
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: she wants into. But why should she make a profit

453
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: off of it? Karen start, Well, it doesn't make sense

454
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: that she should. But as at this point, Nancy, there

455
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: is no law that prevents her. She's out of jail

456
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: from you know, requesting that money, she's allowed to do it. Well,

457
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: so much for love at first sight. That's all I've

458
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: got to say. We're on it and I intend to

459
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: stay on it and make sure Angelica Grasshold does not

460
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: get that money. You know what, It can be exhausting, right,

461
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: working all day, raising your children into the night, then

462
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: up the next morning to do the next thing, to

463
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: keep it all going. And what I'm doing to increase

464
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: my energy is to work on my blood pressure and circulation.

465
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: I know you don't think about it a lot, but

466
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: you should. And this is why circulation is crucial to

467
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: maintaining energy and stamina. Because circulation, which is moving your

468
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: blood through your body, the red blood cells take oxygen

469
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: and nutrients to all the parts of your body. That

470
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: helps you exercise longer, do more everyday activities. So what

471
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: can you do to promote healthy circulation? Drink super beats.

472
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: I'm doing it. Super Beats promotes the body's own natural

473
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: ability to produce healthy circulation, give you increased energy and

474
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: stamina all day long. Super beats made from beats grown

475
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: to exacting standards. Then they are concentrated down into super

476
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: food crystals. I mix it with water, put an ice

477
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: cube in there, and sip it all day long. If

478
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: you want to improve your circulation, call eight hundred five

479
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: one six zero six eight three, or go to Nancy's

480
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: Beats dot com in a n C Y S B

481
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: E E T s dot com And of course I

482
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: look at everything regarding how does that affect my weight

483
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: watcher's plan. I can drink super Beats all day long,

484
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: no problem. Hey, with your first order, you get another

485
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: thirty days supply of super Beats free plus indicators, trips

486
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: to see how super Beats working for you, plus free shipping.

487
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: Call eight hundred five one six zero six A three

488
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: or go to Nancy's Beats in a n C Y

489
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: S B E E t s dot com today super Beats,

490
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: Thank you. I knew it with him, but everybody kept time.

491
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: You know, don't think the worst, but me. I'm the grandmother,

492
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: so I knew it was him. We have devoted a

493
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: lot of time, energy, and investigation in trying to identify

494
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: the remains of a four year old little boy that

495
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: was found in a bag in a yard, and we

496
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: have breaking news right now that the little boy has

497
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: been identified. Take a listen to what his grandmother has

498
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: to say. I did see the sketch and I put

499
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: his picture next to the composed it and a what

500
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: I really knew with him was from from the teeth,

501
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: how they were formed in shape. A medical examiner has

502
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: finally identified the remains found in a bag. This was

503
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: no accident. You don't have an accident, die and crawl

504
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: into a bag at age four. This bag was found

505
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: in the backyard of the Cleveland home, a home that

506
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: was vacant and having construction work done on it. This

507
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: was last year and we have been trying our best

508
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: to have those remains identified. How does a child go

509
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: missing and nobody knows? How can a body turn up

510
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: in a bag and nobody identifies the baby? Authorities say

511
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: in the last hours that they have identified this tiny child.

512
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking about my twins at age four?

513
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: How hell plus and tiny? They were joining me right now.

514
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: Syndicated talk show host Dave Mac. Dave Mac telling us

515
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: the latest out of Cleveland. Dave, what do you know

516
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: about them finally identifying these remains? You know you you

517
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: mentioned a four year old and nobody reported him missing.

518
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: That's the most shocking thing I can possibly think of.

519
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: It's a vacant home and a guy is pruning trees

520
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: in the backyard and cuts open a garbage bag and

521
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: finds a complete skeleton inside and nobody had reported him missing.

522
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to die. Okay, wait, wait what w

523
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: whoa whoa whoa hold on? Dave Matt to Karen Smith,

524
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: forensics expert, Karen if he was already skeletonized, that means

525
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: he had been there for some time exactly right. It

526
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 1: means months, if not years. And I believe that they've

527
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: dated it back to the spring or summer, and that's

528
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: going to make the medical examiner's job all that more

529
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: difficult because you're dealing with there's no I hate to

530
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: be like this, but there's no flesh remaining, so there's

531
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 1: not going to be the superficial bruising or the deep

532
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: bruising left. There's not gonna be much evidence. So they're

533
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: really going to have to put their nose to the

534
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: grindstone to find out what may have happened to this

535
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: poor little boy. This little boy now identified as four

536
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: year old Eliza Ruiz. The four year old has just

537
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: been identified after months we have spent trying to spread

538
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: the word and the sketch by a sketch artist made

539
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: from the tiny remains, I mean, how does that work?

540
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: Karen Smith? How do you know? I've done it? In court?

541
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: Several times fraud remains, decomposed remains, bring in an expert

542
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: who can actually make a sketch of the face of

543
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: the dead person. How does that work when they're already skeletonized.

544
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: It's kind of a fascinating process. And I've seen a

545
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: lot of facial reconstruction artists use clay um. They actually

546
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: put different levels of foam on the skull and they

547
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: form what they believed to be a good likeness of

548
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: the person. And I would think that a child would

549
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: be doubly difficult, because you know, their facial bones haven't

550
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: formed in the way that adults have, so it's it's

551
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: kind of speculative. But from the drawing that I saw, Um,

552
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: it was really quite compelling, and obviously it led to

553
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: his identity, or at least help to this is not

554
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: just any little boy. This little boy was beautiful with

555
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: a sparkly happy personality. Listen to what his grandmother says,

556
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: personality is um, happy, go lucky. He was always um.

557
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: He was always doing something to make somebody laugh. It's

558
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: heartbreaking that after this composite sketch, which really broke the

559
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: case wide open, the grandmother says, I knew as soon

560
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: as I saw the smile and the sketch that it

561
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: was Eliza. I knew as soon as I saw the

562
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: smile it was my grandson. It's just more painful than

563
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: I can even think of. But now the question is

564
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: how how did this child die and why? What is

565
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: the cause and manner of death? To Dave Mack, syndicated

566
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: talk show host, as of right now, the County Medical

567
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: Examiner's office is still trying to figure out the cause

568
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: and manner of death. Isn't that right? His mom has

569
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: been away since February of two thousand seventeen, and his death,

570
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: or they're assuming right now trying to figure out an

571
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: actual real time of death came sometime after that when

572
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: he was not in the custody of his mother but

573
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: in the custody of his godmother. And that's what they're

574
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: trying to trace back to what was going on in

575
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: his life, because again, he was he was well fed,

576
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 1: he was in okay shape. They can't find any outward

577
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 1: signs of trauma, and they just don't have any answers yet.

578
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: Joining me, Ashley Will caught lawyer, sitting judge and child advocate. Ashley,

579
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: you know what I noticed in all the many years

580
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: I prosecuted felonies that when a lot of people handled

581
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: cases where a child is the victim, the police sentence

582
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: is less, the sentence is less at trial. I don't

583
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: know why, but I do not want this treated lightly.

584
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: Somebody needs to go to jail for life on this,

585
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: if not worse. Ashley, I agree. And here's the thing.

586
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: The fact that the child was never reported missing is

587
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: suspicious in and of itself because that means that whoever

588
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: had the child murdered the child. Otherwise somebody would have

589
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: reported the child missing. So you have a lot of

590
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: elements of different crimes in this particular case so that

591
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: they can identify a suspect and actually prosecute them. And

592
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: I will tell you it shows like yours that raise

593
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: public awareness because we have got to get stricter, harsher

594
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 1: sentencing for those who murder children. Joining me is Karen Starting,

595
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: New York psychologist and Karen Smith forensics expert. Karen Smith,

596
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: how are they going to determine if the body is

597
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: mostly skeletonized, how are they going to determine the cause

598
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: of death? That's a really good question. So unless the

599
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: skeletonized remains have some kind of mark on them. You know,

600
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: it's really difficult for me to talk about doing a

601
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: vicious homicide to a child, but we have to look

602
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: at that as a possibility. Are their marks left on

603
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: the bones that were found in the bag. Also, this

604
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: could be a forensic case. You have a bag, you

605
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: have a trash bag, and even though it was in

606
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: the elements for a long time, if the bag was

607
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: folded and we can find trace DNA remnants on the

608
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: outside of that bag or the inside of that bag

609
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 1: where the child was placed, we can do a comparison.

610
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: They had a DNA profile that identified the child, So

611
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: if we can run a DNA profile against that sample

612
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: and find out if there's any foreign DNA, that's going

613
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: to open up a whole new bag of worms. Also,

614
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: why did they choose the house they chose to dump

615
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: the bag? To me, that tells me that whoever did

616
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: it is familiar with the area. They knew that house

617
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: had been abandoned, and they knew that it was a

618
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: place to place it where nobody would notice, nobody would

619
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: say anything, and it would remain there for a long time. Well,

620
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: there has to be more than just skeletons, because we

621
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: know right now Karen Smith that although many reports said

622
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: skeleton I so had to be more than that, because

623
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: the EMMY is saying uh. And this is the county

624
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: medical Examiner, Thomas Gilson, has said that Eliza was healthy

625
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 1: up to his death, well nourished, and no obvious signs

626
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: of trauma. So what that means to me is he

627
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: must be partially skeletonized because the medical examiner knows there's

628
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: no obvious signs with trauma, and we're telling is that

629
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: he was well nourished. So there had to be soft

630
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: tissue enough for that. Yes, that's correct, Nancy. It may

631
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: not be enough soft tissue enable to enable them to

632
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: give a cause and manner of death. Hopefully it's enough

633
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: for them to determine the cause or some precipitating reason

634
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: why this child died or was murdered. Um that they found.

635
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: They said that his hair was brown, and hair is

636
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: very hearty. It can last a long time even in

637
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: that environment, so hopefully there was enough there for them

638
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: to make a ruling. We know that DNA has now

639
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: confirmed that this is in fact Eliza. We also know

640
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: that the child was in the care of is godmother

641
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: in the mom's absence. I don't know where the dad is.

642
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: I don't know where that piece of the puzzle fits

643
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: into this scenario, but I know this. We want justice,

644
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: and Eliza's grandmother could not agree more. Listen, I wish

645
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: that the person I did is to him could get

646
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: the same that they did to him, whatever that may be.

647
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: If you have information to help solve the mystery surrounding

648
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: the death of this four year old little boy, Eliza,

649
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: please call two one six four War three six thousand,

650
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: Repeat to one six four for three six thousand. Nancy

651
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,