Speaker 1: John to gets now around this table.
Speaker 2: I'm really pleased to say the outgoing NATO's Secretary General
Speaker 2: Jen Steldenburg, departing the organization after a decade, Sarah's.
Speaker 1: Good to see you.
Speaker 3: Thanks much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks for Sharon what I believe is your final interview.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: So you've been very kind to Bloomberg over the years,
Speaker 2: and every time we spoken to you over the last decade,
Speaker 2: you've always been generous with your time, So thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for that.
Speaker 2: If I think back at your tenure over the last decade,
Speaker 2: I can think of two really big wake up calls.
Speaker 1: For the organization.
Speaker 2: One was Trump being elected in twenty sixteen and really
Speaker 2: putting the foot on the throat of some of the
Speaker 2: people who were part of this organization to spend more
Speaker 2: on defense. The other was the invasion of Russia into
Speaker 2: Ukraine more recently in.
Speaker 1: The last couple of years.
Speaker 2: As you step back and think about your tenure the
Speaker 2: last decade, what stood out for you.
Speaker 5: The most?
Speaker 3: Of course decisive and was it an important challenge we've
Speaker 3: faced also a Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. But
Speaker 3: you have to remember that the war in Ukraine didn't
Speaker 3: start in twenty twenty two. It started in twenty fourteen
Speaker 3: when Russia went in and took Cromea, and since then,
Speaker 3: over the last decade, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcement
Speaker 3: or collected events because of Russia's annexation of Crimea. So
Speaker 3: when the full scale nation happened in twenty two, we
Speaker 3: were prepared. We had more forces on higher edness for
Speaker 3: the first time, but the groups in eastern partolions. So
Speaker 3: when it happened in the full scale vation, we were
Speaker 3: able to step up our support for Ukraine and increase
Speaker 3: some interpresence in the eastern potodions. So Ukraine has been
Speaker 3: that throughout my tenure, but it has gotten worse.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about the potential path forward for Ukraine, especially
Speaker 5: given the fact that we have this US election looming
Speaker 5: over the crisis. Donald Trump was talking yesterday about Zelenski,
Speaker 5: saying that he was making nasty aspersions about him that
Speaker 5: had to do with this New Yorker article I'm sure
Speaker 5: you've seen, but he said about JD.
Speaker 3: Vans.
Speaker 5: Also the fact that he went to Pennsylvania, which is
Speaker 5: a swing state in this country. Do you think Zelensky
Speaker 5: miscalculated this political situation right now in the United States.
Speaker 3: I'm called the install President Zelensky is ready to work
Speaker 3: with whoever is elected as president in the United States.
Speaker 3: And also know that President Zelensky worked with President Trump
Speaker 3: when he was President of the United States. And also
Speaker 3: that during that time, actually the United States increased its
Speaker 3: military support to Ukraine. It was during the Trump administration
Speaker 3: or the decision to provide lead laid javelins to Ukraine
Speaker 3: was taken. So it's not for me and it's all
Speaker 3: for President Lensky to have any opinion about who the
Speaker 3: American people should elect, but we need to work with
Speaker 3: whoever is elected to ensure continued support for Ukraine.
Speaker 5: I guess I'm confused because there's been a change of
Speaker 5: attitude from President Zelensky. He sat down with me in
Speaker 5: July and basically said he wanted to get into rumor Trump.
Speaker 5: He wanted to see the plan Trump had when he
Speaker 5: says I have a path to victory. And now he
Speaker 5: comes here and he's kind of poking the bear what
Speaker 5: he says about his running mate. And the fact of
Speaker 5: the matter is Trump is not going to be meeting
Speaker 5: him along the sidelines of you and General Assembly, and
Speaker 5: that probably goes back to what Zelenski has said about him.
Speaker 3: But you know, not for me as Sector General of
Speaker 3: NATO to try to aid to facilitate a meeting between
Speaker 3: President and Selensky and Donald Trump. What I can do
Speaker 3: is to convey to the United States, to all NATO
Speaker 3: allies that it is important that we continue to support
Speaker 3: Ukraine because this is not only about Ukraine, it's also
Speaker 3: about our own security. If we allow President Putin to
Speaker 3: win in Ukraine, it will be a strategy for Ukrainians
Speaker 3: but also dangerous for us because then the message to
Speaker 3: Preston Trump is that when he used military force, he
Speaker 3: gets what he to President Putin is that when he
Speaker 3: use military force, he gets what he wants. And that
Speaker 3: will also be followed very closely in China. So this
Speaker 3: is not only about Europe, but also about whether we
Speaker 3: should allow author Italian leaders around the world to use
Speaker 3: military force to.
Speaker 1: Achieve what they want.
Speaker 5: What I've been hearing from some of my sources in
Speaker 5: the Trump administration is that they want to do similar
Speaker 5: to what Trump did in the first round, which was
Speaker 5: push NATO Alliance personally Alliance to have more of a
Speaker 5: collective defense spending. Basically, now they would push for three percent.
Speaker 5: How would you you know? Your advice to the incoming
Speaker 5: secretary Channal on how to deal with that?
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I think we need to recognize
Speaker 3: the enormous progress European allies have met have made because
Speaker 3: back in twenty fourteen, only three allies met the guide
Speaker 3: down spending two percent of GDP on defense. This year,
Speaker 3: twenty three allies are spending two percent or more. But
Speaker 3: you also made it clear that two percent is not enough.
Speaker 3: So the good news is that we have met the
Speaker 3: two percent target, but we need to do even more
Speaker 3: because we live in a more dangerous world. And therefore
Speaker 3: we agreed at our last summit that two percent is
Speaker 3: in inimum, it's not a ceiling, it's a floor. And
Speaker 3: also have agreed in NATO new Defense Plans, which requires
Speaker 3: specific capabilities, forces readiness, and for allies to provide those forces,
Speaker 3: we have agreed that they should provide. They have to
Speaker 3: spend significantly more than two percent, whether it's two and
Speaker 3: a half or three. I will not give you a
Speaker 3: second number, but it's significantly more than two.
Speaker 4: Do you think that NATO is significantly stronger or significantly
Speaker 4: weaker than it was when you took the office.
Speaker 3: There's no doubt that NATO is significantly stronger. We are
Speaker 3: spending much more on the events, we have many more
Speaker 3: troops on high readiness, we have more high end capabilities.
Speaker 3: We have bad troops in these depart alliance. But the
Speaker 3: challenge is that the world is more dangerous. So the
Speaker 3: success of NATO is that when the world changes, we change,
Speaker 3: and that's exactly what they have seen.
Speaker 4: The issue is that NATO members may not agree on
Speaker 4: where the dangers are and exactly how to deal with them.
Speaker 4: How do you see NATO facing off with certain economic
Speaker 4: and potential military threats from say China and other countries
Speaker 4: where it's a little more complicated in terms of the members.
Speaker 3: Well, we are thirty two allies, and of course sometimes
Speaker 3: it takes time to make thirty two allies representing fifty
Speaker 3: percent of the world's GDP, fifty percent of the world's
Speaker 3: minteri mighty two agree. But the good news is that,
Speaker 3: on for instance, China, we have come a very long way.
Speaker 3: Not so many years ago, NATO didn't have any unified
Speaker 3: policy on China. Now we have a very clear position
Speaker 3: that China matters for our security, that China cannot continue
Speaker 3: to enable Russia's war aggression against the Ukraine without consequences
Speaker 3: for its interest and reputation. And allies have also agreed
Speaker 3: that we need to work more closely with our partners
Speaker 3: in the Pacific, Japan and South Korea, Australia as response
Speaker 3: to what we see in China is today.
Speaker 2: We could tell you all day, but we're running out
Speaker 2: of time, so I have to squeeze this in and
Speaker 2: it's rather selfish. Do you know a guy that might
Speaker 2: be able to help us set up the show? Take
Speaker 2: it on the road to the Ammuni Security Conference anytime?
Speaker 2: So do you know someone we might be able to cool?
Speaker 3: But you know, Livuning Security Conference is a very good
Speaker 3: platform to just go security issues. But I will not
Speaker 3: give you a specific name for it. Who can't help
Speaker 3: you without.
Speaker 2: I'll get in touch in a number of weeks time
Speaker 2: and hopefully maybe that will change. Thank you, sir, thank you,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for everything over the last decade.
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. We're going to do. Thank you.
Speaker 2: The NATO Secretary General Jen Stolenburg, there