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Speaker 1: John to gets now around this table.

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Speaker 2: I'm really pleased to say the outgoing NATO's Secretary General

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Speaker 2: Jen Steldenburg, departing the organization after a decade, Sarah's.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for Sharon what I believe is your final interview.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So you've been very kind to Bloomberg over the years,

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Speaker 2: and every time we spoken to you over the last decade,

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Speaker 2: you've always been generous with your time, So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for that.

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Speaker 2: If I think back at your tenure over the last decade,

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Speaker 2: I can think of two really big wake up calls.

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Speaker 1: For the organization.

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Speaker 2: One was Trump being elected in twenty sixteen and really

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Speaker 2: putting the foot on the throat of some of the

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Speaker 2: people who were part of this organization to spend more

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Speaker 2: on defense. The other was the invasion of Russia into

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Speaker 2: Ukraine more recently in.

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Speaker 1: The last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: As you step back and think about your tenure the

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Speaker 2: last decade, what stood out for you.

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Speaker 5: The most?

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Speaker 3: Of course decisive and was it an important challenge we've

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Speaker 3: faced also a Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. But

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Speaker 3: you have to remember that the war in Ukraine didn't

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Speaker 3: start in twenty twenty two. It started in twenty fourteen

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Speaker 3: when Russia went in and took Cromea, and since then,

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Speaker 3: over the last decade, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcement

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Speaker 3: or collected events because of Russia's annexation of Crimea. So

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Speaker 3: when the full scale nation happened in twenty two, we

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Speaker 3: were prepared. We had more forces on higher edness for

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Speaker 3: the first time, but the groups in eastern partolions. So

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Speaker 3: when it happened in the full scale vation, we were

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Speaker 3: able to step up our support for Ukraine and increase

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Speaker 3: some interpresence in the eastern potodions. So Ukraine has been

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Speaker 3: that throughout my tenure, but it has gotten worse.

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Speaker 5: Let's talk about the potential path forward for Ukraine, especially

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Speaker 5: given the fact that we have this US election looming

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Speaker 5: over the crisis. Donald Trump was talking yesterday about Zelenski,

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Speaker 5: saying that he was making nasty aspersions about him that

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Speaker 5: had to do with this New Yorker article I'm sure

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Speaker 5: you've seen, but he said about JD.

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Speaker 3: Vans.

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Speaker 5: Also the fact that he went to Pennsylvania, which is

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Speaker 5: a swing state in this country. Do you think Zelensky

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Speaker 5: miscalculated this political situation right now in the United States.

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Speaker 3: I'm called the install President Zelensky is ready to work

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Speaker 3: with whoever is elected as president in the United States.

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Speaker 3: And also know that President Zelensky worked with President Trump

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Speaker 3: when he was President of the United States. And also

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Speaker 3: that during that time, actually the United States increased its

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Speaker 3: military support to Ukraine. It was during the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: or the decision to provide lead laid javelins to Ukraine

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Speaker 3: was taken. So it's not for me and it's all

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Speaker 3: for President Lensky to have any opinion about who the

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Speaker 3: American people should elect, but we need to work with

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Speaker 3: whoever is elected to ensure continued support for Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: I guess I'm confused because there's been a change of

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Speaker 5: attitude from President Zelensky. He sat down with me in

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Speaker 5: July and basically said he wanted to get into rumor Trump.

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Speaker 5: He wanted to see the plan Trump had when he

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Speaker 5: says I have a path to victory. And now he

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Speaker 5: comes here and he's kind of poking the bear what

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Speaker 5: he says about his running mate. And the fact of

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Speaker 5: the matter is Trump is not going to be meeting

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Speaker 5: him along the sidelines of you and General Assembly, and

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Speaker 5: that probably goes back to what Zelenski has said about him.

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Speaker 3: But you know, not for me as Sector General of

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Speaker 3: NATO to try to aid to facilitate a meeting between

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Speaker 3: President and Selensky and Donald Trump. What I can do

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Speaker 3: is to convey to the United States, to all NATO

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Speaker 3: allies that it is important that we continue to support

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Speaker 3: Ukraine because this is not only about Ukraine, it's also

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Speaker 3: about our own security. If we allow President Putin to

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Speaker 3: win in Ukraine, it will be a strategy for Ukrainians

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Speaker 3: but also dangerous for us because then the message to

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Speaker 3: Preston Trump is that when he used military force, he

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Speaker 3: gets what he to President Putin is that when he

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Speaker 3: use military force, he gets what he wants. And that

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Speaker 3: will also be followed very closely in China. So this

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Speaker 3: is not only about Europe, but also about whether we

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Speaker 3: should allow author Italian leaders around the world to use

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Speaker 3: military force to.

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Speaker 1: Achieve what they want.

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Speaker 5: What I've been hearing from some of my sources in

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Speaker 5: the Trump administration is that they want to do similar

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Speaker 5: to what Trump did in the first round, which was

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Speaker 5: push NATO Alliance personally Alliance to have more of a

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Speaker 5: collective defense spending. Basically, now they would push for three percent.

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Speaker 5: How would you you know? Your advice to the incoming

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Speaker 5: secretary Channal on how to deal with that?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I think we need to recognize

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Speaker 3: the enormous progress European allies have met have made because

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Speaker 3: back in twenty fourteen, only three allies met the guide

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Speaker 3: down spending two percent of GDP on defense. This year,

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Speaker 3: twenty three allies are spending two percent or more. But

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Speaker 3: you also made it clear that two percent is not enough.

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Speaker 3: So the good news is that we have met the

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Speaker 3: two percent target, but we need to do even more

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Speaker 3: because we live in a more dangerous world. And therefore

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Speaker 3: we agreed at our last summit that two percent is

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Speaker 3: in inimum, it's not a ceiling, it's a floor. And

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Speaker 3: also have agreed in NATO new Defense Plans, which requires

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Speaker 3: specific capabilities, forces readiness, and for allies to provide those forces,

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Speaker 3: we have agreed that they should provide. They have to

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Speaker 3: spend significantly more than two percent, whether it's two and

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Speaker 3: a half or three. I will not give you a

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Speaker 3: second number, but it's significantly more than two.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that NATO is significantly stronger or significantly

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Speaker 4: weaker than it was when you took the office.

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Speaker 3: There's no doubt that NATO is significantly stronger. We are

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Speaker 3: spending much more on the events, we have many more

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Speaker 3: troops on high readiness, we have more high end capabilities.

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Speaker 3: We have bad troops in these depart alliance. But the

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Speaker 3: challenge is that the world is more dangerous. So the

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Speaker 3: success of NATO is that when the world changes, we change,

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Speaker 3: and that's exactly what they have seen.

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Speaker 4: The issue is that NATO members may not agree on

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Speaker 4: where the dangers are and exactly how to deal with them.

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Speaker 4: How do you see NATO facing off with certain economic

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Speaker 4: and potential military threats from say China and other countries

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Speaker 4: where it's a little more complicated in terms of the members.

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Speaker 3: Well, we are thirty two allies, and of course sometimes

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Speaker 3: it takes time to make thirty two allies representing fifty

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Speaker 3: percent of the world's GDP, fifty percent of the world's

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Speaker 3: minteri mighty two agree. But the good news is that,

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Speaker 3: on for instance, China, we have come a very long way.

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Speaker 3: Not so many years ago, NATO didn't have any unified

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Speaker 3: policy on China. Now we have a very clear position

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Speaker 3: that China matters for our security, that China cannot continue

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Speaker 3: to enable Russia's war aggression against the Ukraine without consequences

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Speaker 3: for its interest and reputation. And allies have also agreed

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Speaker 3: that we need to work more closely with our partners

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Speaker 3: in the Pacific, Japan and South Korea, Australia as response

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Speaker 3: to what we see in China is today.

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Speaker 2: We could tell you all day, but we're running out

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Speaker 2: of time, so I have to squeeze this in and

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Speaker 2: it's rather selfish. Do you know a guy that might

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Speaker 2: be able to help us set up the show? Take

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Speaker 2: it on the road to the Ammuni Security Conference anytime?

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Speaker 2: So do you know someone we might be able to cool?

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Speaker 3: But you know, Livuning Security Conference is a very good

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Speaker 3: platform to just go security issues. But I will not

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Speaker 3: give you a specific name for it. Who can't help

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Speaker 3: you without.

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Speaker 2: I'll get in touch in a number of weeks time

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Speaker 2: and hopefully maybe that will change. Thank you, sir, thank you,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for everything over the last decade.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate it. We're going to do. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: The NATO Secretary General Jen Stolenburg, there