Speaker 1: Pushing last things to say. Are you guys exciting? Yes?
Speaker 1: Are you recording? Oh? Yeah, Well in this movie, I
Speaker 1: don't think no way this movie is bad. No one
Speaker 1: in this movie is bad. It's gonna be good no
Speaker 1: matter what. Yeah. Well, okay, I'm Khalil Jabron Mohammed, I'm
Speaker 1: Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.
Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
Speaker 1: some of my best friends are some of my best
Speaker 1: friends are. And listen, Khalil, you just heard your nephew,
Speaker 1: my son Jonah Romeo Austin and talking about talking about
Speaker 1: how much he's gonna love Wakanda Forever, the Black Panther movie. Yes,
Speaker 1: Wakonda Forever. Did you dress up? Did everybody dress up
Speaker 1: in costumes? Oh? Man, we had makeup? We had no no, no, no,
Speaker 1: we just we just went. But but man, you heard
Speaker 1: how excited he was. And he wasn't wrong. He was
Speaker 1: going to enjoy that movie no matter what. That's right,
Speaker 1: because this is a movie with high stakes. This is
Speaker 1: a movie with so many representations of black people and
Speaker 1: black women, indigenous populations. And we get to talk to
Speaker 1: Eve Ewing, who is a writer and poet and contributes
Speaker 1: to one of the characters were Williams, who makes her
Speaker 1: debut in Wakonda Forever on the big screen. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are. We are talking about Marvel comics. We're talking
Speaker 1: about superheroes, We're talking about representation, We're talking about superpowers
Speaker 1: of all kinds. Let's go into the episode. Oh man,
Speaker 1: this is so exciting. I love that Jonah was so
Speaker 1: excited and said there can be no wrong in this movie.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Ryan Coogler. Of course, I
Speaker 1: got dressed up to go see Black Panther a few
Speaker 1: years ago. My whole family wents to see Wakonda Forever recently,
Speaker 1: And now we get to talk to one of the
Speaker 1: contributors to this Marvel universe, Ewing, And she's somebody you
Speaker 1: actually know and spend a lot of time with. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I know where from Chicago. We're part of the same
Speaker 1: tribe here in the city. And she is so multi
Speaker 1: talented Eve Viewing. I mean, she is accomplished in this
Speaker 1: broad array of different fields, and she's so accomplished in
Speaker 1: so many different things that we could probably start to
Speaker 1: talk about all the things that she does that we're
Speaker 1: not going to focus on in this episode. That's right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I know her work as a scholar and sociologist
Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago. She's done amazing work on
Speaker 1: inequality in our public school systems and the school closings
Speaker 1: that had a really traumatic effect on the South and
Speaker 1: West sides of Chicago years ago. Yeah, that's not something
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about. And you know what else we're
Speaker 1: not going to talk about. She is this amazing accomplished poet.
Speaker 1: She's also a children's book author. I mean she she
Speaker 1: can't not do everything to use a double nag. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: but even more, even more, she's an activist. She's an organizer.
Speaker 1: During COVID, when I had not left the house for
Speaker 1: like four months and I was at my lowest point,
Speaker 1: she helped organize of basically like a food drive for
Speaker 1: families who were enrolled in public schools. But we're not
Speaker 1: getting the free and reduced lunch and breakfast that they
Speaker 1: needed for nutrition. Wow, and so like it got me
Speaker 1: out of the house. I bought all these groceries. I
Speaker 1: brought him over there. There were so many people fit.
Speaker 1: It made me suddenly feel good again and feel like
Speaker 1: I was connected to the community. That's her work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean, and here we are basically about to
Speaker 1: talk about superheroes, you know, both on the big screen
Speaker 1: and in comic books. And in a way. I know
Speaker 1: she doesn't like to be described this way, but she's
Speaker 1: only super talented. Let's put it that way, man, She
Speaker 1: is super talented. I mean. One of the things that's
Speaker 1: amazing about her to me is that she works in
Speaker 1: all these different fields. And so now she's even working
Speaker 1: in the Marvel universe. So this academic poet, you know,
Speaker 1: she's also writing comics that you know, she makes all
Speaker 1: these different fields her own in a way that feels
Speaker 1: really unique and empowered. Um, I'm gonna quote James Bald,
Speaker 1: you know, because I want to sound smart, Okay, but
Speaker 1: but I do always think about this quote when I
Speaker 1: think about Eve, and the quote is the place in
Speaker 1: which I'll fit will not exist until I make it.
Speaker 1: Oh and she somehow goes yea. So then you're such
Speaker 1: a big fan of comics. I mean, what do you
Speaker 1: know about Ianheart? So she writes this comic book from Marvel.
Speaker 1: It's about this young woman, a black girl from the
Speaker 1: South Side of Chicago. Her name is re Ree Williams.
Speaker 1: And you know, she is basically creates an Iron Man
Speaker 1: suit for herself, you know, and she doesn't have superpowers,
Speaker 1: but she has an intelligence which is extraordinary, and she's
Speaker 1: able to become the superhero through that. Yeah, that character
Speaker 1: sounds so interesting and certainly she came to life on
Speaker 1: the big screen. I have to tell you, though, I mean,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big a deal this was for
Speaker 1: even I can't wait to hear her talk more about it.
Speaker 1: Not too long ago, she wrote in The New York
Speaker 1: Times and op ed that I happened to read call
Speaker 1: Flying while Black, and she talked about how significant doing
Speaker 1: this kind of representational work in the comic book space is.
Speaker 1: She said that she'd worked on policing and politics and education.
Speaker 1: She'd done all the things that we know she is
Speaker 1: so talented at. But she said nothing had attracted a
Speaker 1: firestorm of hate and vitriol directed towards her, like her
Speaker 1: work on writing Ironheart Man. That is something that's wild.
Speaker 1: So listen, man, let's just get to eat yea, because
Speaker 1: let's hear her unpack some of this and talk about
Speaker 1: about her work in the superhero realm. Let's do it all, right,
Speaker 1: Eve ewing. Oh my gosh, it's so great to see you.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks for having me. Yeah, welcome, welcome to Some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are really happy to have you here.
Speaker 1: We get to talk to you Eve on the very
Speaker 1: day that a new issue of a Marvel comic that
Speaker 1: you write is dropping, right, Yeah, issue to a Photon
Speaker 1: featuring Monica Rambo. You got it, you got it. And
Speaker 1: for folks listening, that's Rambo like U R A M
Speaker 1: B E A U. Not Rambo like Sebuster stallone, but
Speaker 1: or like Rambo the poet. Yeah, exactly exactly, because with
Speaker 1: you they might have thought it was, you know, not
Speaker 1: that one. So well, we actually wanted to start by
Speaker 1: talking to you about, you know, this other comic book
Speaker 1: that you write, Um, yeah, you know iron Heart, and
Speaker 1: you know this exciting new character, the superhero in the
Speaker 1: Marvel universe. Ironheart's alter ego is Rere Williams. She's this
Speaker 1: genius from the South Side of Chicago and what yep,
Speaker 1: south side And you know many people have met re
Speaker 1: Re because they saw her in the Black Panther movie,
Speaker 1: the new one. Were Conda forever, Yeah, Conda forever, yes,
Speaker 1: Wada forever exactly and actually, uh, when I went. I
Speaker 1: took my kids to see that that movie were Conda
Speaker 1: Forever on opening day, and they wanted me to record them, um,
Speaker 1: you know, actually to hope that I would play it
Speaker 1: for you. And I'm gonna play a little recording of
Speaker 1: my daughter. We were doing a little debrief in the
Speaker 1: car ride home and she was talking about how many
Speaker 1: smart black women are in this movie. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Roll the tape. I thought it was
Speaker 1: it was cool to see like like they didn't need
Speaker 1: to bring in like somebody, like it was another smart
Speaker 1: black woman. Like they didn't feel like too smart black women,
Speaker 1: that's too many, like that there could be two of
Speaker 1: them and they could exist without competing and they could
Speaker 1: be like friends. Yeah, like because normally it would either
Speaker 1: be like competitive or what I would have to be white,
Speaker 1: but there were there was none of that. Wow, great review. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean if you think about it, for me,
Speaker 1: what was remarkable about that film is that they're like
Speaker 1: wealth and riches of of of incredible black women, um
Speaker 1: in a way that I think is a critical mass
Speaker 1: that is pretty rarely seen in popular culture, in popular movies,
Speaker 1: especially in a movie that is like considered to be
Speaker 1: what you know, what we call like a tentpole movie,
Speaker 1: like a movie for everybody. I remember several years ago, Um,
Speaker 1: the movie Best Man Holiday came out, right, and yeah,
Speaker 1: the Best Man's series. It's like Leo and I have
Speaker 1: just been catching up on those and watching them together show. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know Best Man Holiday, like it's a holiday movie,
Speaker 1: it's about friends. It's like a middle aged people movie
Speaker 1: whatever whatever. And I remember USA Today had this, had
Speaker 1: this headline. It was like race themed movies, uh, succeed
Speaker 1: at the box at the box office. And you know,
Speaker 1: Bestman Holiday is not a race themed movie, right, It's
Speaker 1: a movie about black people doing stuff like having Christmas
Speaker 1: and yeah and being pugi and right. And I think
Speaker 1: that the but but that that lends the idea that
Speaker 1: like the mere presence of black people obliterates the possibility
Speaker 1: of any other kind of thematic exploration. Um. And you know,
Speaker 1: to your daughter's point, the fact that like one smart
Speaker 1: black girl is already pushing it and then more than
Speaker 1: one is too much. You know. In the movie, you
Speaker 1: have you have Rere, you have Shari, you have Nakia,
Speaker 1: you have a Koya, you know, and you have Queen Ramanda.
Speaker 1: So you have these five black women, Um that all
Speaker 1: our leaders and amazing people in their own way. You know,
Speaker 1: never in twenty thousand lifetimes when I was sitting down
Speaker 1: to write that comic book that I imagine uh, you know,
Speaker 1: sitting in a in a premiere in Hollywood, Um, seeing
Speaker 1: that character come to this green and so it's definitely
Speaker 1: been a wild journey. Well that's exactly what we want
Speaker 1: to talk about. First of all, I have to admit,
Speaker 1: I mean this is both embarrassing and also I think
Speaker 1: a compliment to you. I had never read a comic
Speaker 1: book cover to cover until I read the first and
Speaker 1: second issues of Ironheart. I mean that that is That's
Speaker 1: a huge compliment. Kid, that's a huge compliment. That's a
Speaker 1: huge compliment. But he also he also wouldn't buy them.
Speaker 1: I had to photo photo, you know. I took pictures
Speaker 1: of him with my phone and said the like, I refuse. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean so, so I want to know, actually, how
Speaker 1: did you develop this character? I mean, what what was
Speaker 1: the process? How did you make reread the inspiration? Talk
Speaker 1: to us about the backstory? Sure, so, you know, I
Speaker 1: think that one thing that's important to clarify is that
Speaker 1: I didn't create the character, right, and so so Brian
Speaker 1: Michael Bendis, who is also his very prolific comics writer,
Speaker 1: veteran of the End Street. Um. If you are familiar
Speaker 1: with the character Miles Morales from who Everybody Loves up
Speaker 1: right into the Spider Verse. Yeah, so so Brian Michael
Speaker 1: Bennis also created Miles. Um. So he created Rear Williams
Speaker 1: several years ago, and um, you know, created her as
Speaker 1: kind of at a time when Tony Stark was out
Speaker 1: of commission in the Marvel universe. Um. And so the
Speaker 1: story that he created her kind of backstory was that
Speaker 1: she was this black girl genius. She was fifteen, she
Speaker 1: was from the South Side Chicago. She went to MIT,
Speaker 1: and she basically reverse engineered, uh, the the equivalent of
Speaker 1: Tony Stark's Iron Man armor by herself in her dorm room. Right.
Speaker 1: The idea being that you know, Tony Stark is, you know,
Speaker 1: a billionaire who's inherited every social privilege that you could imagine,
Speaker 1: and his father was a weapons manufacturer and all this
Speaker 1: and um, and what he did with you know, years
Speaker 1: of the best schooling. Re redid like on a whim
Speaker 1: in a dorm um and from Black Girl. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and so um. But part of a big part of
Speaker 1: her biography was that she had lost her father to
Speaker 1: gun violence when she was a baby, That she had
Speaker 1: lost her stepfather to gun violence when she was young,
Speaker 1: like about ten or eleven, and that in that same
Speaker 1: drive by that her best friend was also shot and killed.
Speaker 1: And so that's a very complicated narrative to receive. And
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: as a Chicago and you know, I and you know,
Speaker 1: everybody here, all of us in different ways have been
Speaker 1: have been touched by gun violence. Gun violence has impacted
Speaker 1: our lives, and that's real. And then on the other hand,
Speaker 1: what does it mean for this character to primarily be
Speaker 1: defined by those losses? So, you know, so when when
Speaker 1: I was asked to give my take on the character,
Speaker 1: I had never written for Marvel before, and you know,
Speaker 1: they asked me to come in and meet with them,
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I had this meeting and I
Speaker 1: went in and it's like, it's kind of like if
Speaker 1: NASA called me, like you know, the movie The Moment
Speaker 1: and a movie like Armageddon or something thing where you know,
Speaker 1: Bruce Willis is like, but I'm just an oil rig operator,
Speaker 1: like you know, what does what does the government want
Speaker 1: with me? Where it's like, you know, I'm just a humble,
Speaker 1: you know, poet and local nerd. Like I went in.
Speaker 1: I had this meeting, and I went in letting them know, like,
Speaker 1: these are the questions that I have about this character
Speaker 1: that I think that as a reader, as a fan,
Speaker 1: that I think need to be answered. And some of
Speaker 1: my questions were, you know, okay, if if you're a
Speaker 1: black team girl from the South Side who's lost all
Speaker 1: these loved ones to gun violence, what compels you to
Speaker 1: go out and risk your life every single day? Um
Speaker 1: reads raised by a single mom. One of my biggest
Speaker 1: questions was like, what black mom is allowing this to happen? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, like I was like, there's no way my
Speaker 1: mom would are you joking? Like absolutely not, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: She'd be like, you know, I don't care. That might
Speaker 1: be what your friends would do, you know, and so yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: so So that was those are the questions that I asked,
Speaker 1: and I said to them at that time, you know,
Speaker 1: if I might take on this character would be to
Speaker 1: try to fill out what is her social world? Like
Speaker 1: who are the people who love her we fall in
Speaker 1: love for with superheroes, they have the longevity that they
Speaker 1: have not because of the person with the powers or
Speaker 1: the person with the costume, but because of the person
Speaker 1: beneath the suit, right, and so you know exactly, So
Speaker 1: those are the type of questions I wanted us to know,
Speaker 1: like who is rear, what is she about? Why is
Speaker 1: she doing this? Who are her friends? What's annoying about her?
Speaker 1: What's great about her? And and also for her to
Speaker 1: be defined by a social world that felt real, for
Speaker 1: us to feel like she had a cast of characters
Speaker 1: of people who support her and who you know, kind
Speaker 1: of make fun of her, keep her head from getting
Speaker 1: too big, you know. And I think that that approach
Speaker 1: of going in with the questions that I have as
Speaker 1: a reader are are really that's something that I carry
Speaker 1: over from the other you know, genres in which I've
Speaker 1: trained I mean, Khalil definitely as a scholar. This is
Speaker 1: what we're trained to do, right, is you read the
Speaker 1: literature and you say like, all right, well, what's the gap?
Speaker 1: Like what do we not know? And so that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of what's my intervention. And I think that when
Speaker 1: you're writing characters that you know, reason more recent character.
Speaker 1: But you know, I've also gotten to write, um, you know,
Speaker 1: Peter Parker story and Miss Marvel, and I'm working on
Speaker 1: and and Monica. You know, Monica's a character that's been
Speaker 1: around for forty years. Um, I'm working on another story
Speaker 1: now that I can't say who it is, but it's
Speaker 1: another legacy character. Come, I can't do it. I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't. They'll come, They'll come and get me. But
Speaker 1: you know, the question is always like, well, what do
Speaker 1: we what do we need to know? Like what's missing
Speaker 1: for me as a reader? And and trying to write
Speaker 1: a character that, uh, that feels real to people, that
Speaker 1: feels relatable to people, that feels like somebody you kind
Speaker 1: of want to give a hug too sometimes and you
Speaker 1: want to shake her other times. Who messes up a lot?
Speaker 1: You know? Can I just say one of the biggest
Speaker 1: surprises though, was that you chose the Harvard Kennedy School
Speaker 1: as the site for this like cinematic battle that takes
Speaker 1: place with Ironheart and the and the Villain. And I'm like, what, yeah,
Speaker 1: actually a job. Yeah. So at the time when when
Speaker 1: Brian left off his narrative arc for re read the
Speaker 1: end of his story was basically that the Dean of
Speaker 1: MIT gives her this lab um and is like, you know,
Speaker 1: now you have this all awesome lab You could do
Speaker 1: whatever you want with it, like congratulations, go be a hero.
Speaker 1: And and that's kind of like a happy ending. Now
Speaker 1: I read that as an academic right, And what we
Speaker 1: know is that if the dean gives you a lab
Speaker 1: there's a lot of strings attall. You know that, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not necessarily easy happy ending. He's
Speaker 1: trying to he's trying to use her bring people in
Speaker 1: to raise money to Yeah, it's a fun raise right,
Speaker 1: what a you know what an academic sub subplot um?
Speaker 1: You know. The fun and the challenge of it is
Speaker 1: that you're picking up the reins. It's like that story
Speaker 1: you play with with kids, like let's all go around
Speaker 1: and you know, add tell a story together and everybody
Speaker 1: adds a sentence, right, everybody says what happens next? Um,
Speaker 1: and and so you don't get to just abruptly. You know.
Speaker 1: Comics fans are very big on continuity um and the
Speaker 1: stereotype of the nerd who's going to be like, well,
Speaker 1: how come an issue for they had this you know,
Speaker 1: this happened, but an issue seven of this other thing.
Speaker 1: This happened, but like that is a real thing. We
Speaker 1: try to keep continuity and so um. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 1: they say, right, what you know, Khalil side, that's right.
Speaker 1: I've spent some time around Cambridge and uh and so
Speaker 1: you know, even though I was not an MIT student,
Speaker 1: I was a I was a Harvard doctoral student. I
Speaker 1: was wondering when you were going to admit that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I figured that was probably a relevant detailed
Speaker 1: to mention. I have a question related to that to
Speaker 1: that eye. And this is a question of sort of
Speaker 1: asking you to tell us a little bit more about yourself,
Speaker 1: but also you know through rere, like how much of
Speaker 1: you is in re re? Yeah, great question. I would say,
Speaker 1: there's a robust ven diagram. We are not the same person.
Speaker 1: I think that some of the ways in which we
Speaker 1: are very much the same. I have myself been a
Speaker 1: black girl growing up in Chicago. I myself was raised
Speaker 1: by a single mom, you know. I myself attended an
Speaker 1: you know, an elite university in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You know.
Speaker 1: And I think that the genius label is a lot
Speaker 1: of my work as an edg scholar is, especially on
Speaker 1: the book I'm trying to finish right now, is challenging
Speaker 1: and troubling notions of what we think intelligence is and
Speaker 1: ways in which the way notions of intelligence as they're
Speaker 1: constructed in schools are very restrictive, very sometimes very racist,
Speaker 1: very limiting. And then I was a middle school teacher, right,
Speaker 1: And so being a teacher means that it's your job
Speaker 1: to find the amazing things in all of your kids
Speaker 1: and to recognize and celebrate the different ways that quote
Speaker 1: unquote intelligence can look and can manifest. And my own
Speaker 1: relationship to that comes as somebody who you know, was
Speaker 1: tracked into high level classes in elementary school and you know,
Speaker 1: went to a selective high school and things like that,
Speaker 1: but always had a kind of complicated awareness of on
Speaker 1: the one hand, receiving these labels of you know, you
Speaker 1: get to be in this program, you get to have
Speaker 1: this opportunity, you get to do this that, and the
Speaker 1: other on the other hand, being very cynical at a
Speaker 1: very young age about the ways that I saw those
Speaker 1: labels as being socially constructed. If even if I didn't
Speaker 1: have that, how did you have that awareness to feel
Speaker 1: like that there's something off about all this, and not
Speaker 1: just to sort of feel this sense of like it
Speaker 1: was normal and like personal or just like pride in
Speaker 1: yourself and not yeah, no, I really didn't. I think
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things. M One is I
Speaker 1: have a younger brother, and so I witnessed the way
Speaker 1: that you know, my brother friends and classmates who were
Speaker 1: boys or girls who you know, presented differently or acted
Speaker 1: differently or you know, behave differently, the way that there's
Speaker 1: like um performance of a certain form of intelligence ascribed
Speaker 1: with moral value and goodness in ways that I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not a better person than those people. I'm not
Speaker 1: a more valuable or more worthy person. So those kinds
Speaker 1: of early schisms of just being like, yo, I think
Speaker 1: some of this stuff is like kind of fake. So
Speaker 1: these questions of deservingness of goodness, all that stuff was
Speaker 1: very It made me very cynical about the labels like
Speaker 1: gifted and talented very early. And so you know, it's fine,
Speaker 1: like it's fiction, it's comics. We can call people geniuses.
Speaker 1: Everything doesn't have to be a sociological thesis with it
Speaker 1: kind of does, but but I at least try to
Speaker 1: conceal it. And but you know, but at the very least,
Speaker 1: like that doesn't solve her problems, right, And so so
Speaker 1: how is she coping with the losses that she's experienced
Speaker 1: in her life? What are the ways in which she
Speaker 1: still has to grow as a as a young person,
Speaker 1: as a friend, right as a daughter. And that's the
Speaker 1: kind of that's the story that I that I wanted
Speaker 1: to tell. We're going to talk some more to eat
Speaker 1: about superheroes and representation after we come back from the break.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Hey, we are back on. Some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are with Evel Ewing. You brought
Speaker 1: up Miles Morales and into the Spider Verse earlier, and
Speaker 1: it is my son, Jonah's, by far most favorite, not
Speaker 1: even favorite movie. Comic is his favorite thing. And you know,
Speaker 1: I asked him why, and you know, even before this conversation,
Speaker 1: I asked him again and I could almost verbade him
Speaker 1: tell you what he said. He said, Miles is after
Speaker 1: a Latino. I'm African American. And we could put an
Speaker 1: asterisk there and you know, a footnote for later. You
Speaker 1: know when he says that, and he says, you know,
Speaker 1: and both of us are these kids who went into
Speaker 1: these sort of like high power nerdy schools and are
Speaker 1: trying to navigate them. He's like, and then this is
Speaker 1: a quote he said, we have the same origin story.
Speaker 1: Oh really, which is a great way of also saying like,
Speaker 1: you know, we all one of the reasons I think
Speaker 1: we love seeing superheroes is because we all dream of
Speaker 1: that that this thing will emerge in us that will
Speaker 1: also differentiate us. Uh. Yes, and and you know I
Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, it's beautiful. Um, you know, maybe you
Speaker 1: know something I want to ask you, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're you're so knowledge about all this and uh and
Speaker 1: Khalil isn't, as he said, he has never even studied
Speaker 1: any of this. Wait a minute, and I have other
Speaker 1: kinds of knowledge, And I want to ask you about
Speaker 1: this moment, like, you know, even Marvel reaching out to you, like,
Speaker 1: what's what do you think is different about this moment
Speaker 1: right now as far as representation, that's different than previous
Speaker 1: ones when there were you know, there were black people
Speaker 1: in comics before. There's obviously been women around, Like what's
Speaker 1: different right now? Yeah, I really appreciate that question. I
Speaker 1: think that really something that has been top of mind
Speaker 1: for me recently is looking back to Tanahassee's Tanahassee Coats's
Speaker 1: run on Black Panther in twenty sixteen. Actually, even though
Speaker 1: it gets a lot less attention, mainstream media attention, I
Speaker 1: think in some ways it's more important or more stunning
Speaker 1: that he then had to run on Captain America. And
Speaker 1: you know, what does it mean for the United States
Speaker 1: one of its leading black public intellectuals who is known
Speaker 1: for what at the time, for many people are very
Speaker 1: incendiary arguments about things like reparations and America as a cleptocracy.
Speaker 1: The you know, person who has said America is a
Speaker 1: cleptocracy to be the person who's like, I'm now going
Speaker 1: to write the story of Captain America, right, And I
Speaker 1: think that that was a really important historic moment that
Speaker 1: opened up a lot of space for writers of color
Speaker 1: who perhaps did not have the kind of coming up
Speaker 1: through the ranks um pathway into comics because it is
Speaker 1: not a medium that has felt welcoming to people and
Speaker 1: who have shown their metal in other arenas and other
Speaker 1: genres to be able to come into writing. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: folks like Saladi Nahmed, who who'd you know been a
Speaker 1: fiction writer and Greg pak who is an amazing comics
Speaker 1: writer now, but starts as a filmmaker, uh, you know
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay, who was certainly the most high profile black
Speaker 1: woman to kind of you know crossover um. And I
Speaker 1: think that took some imagination on the on the part
Speaker 1: of editors to say, like, well, you know, maybe this
Speaker 1: person who's good at this thing could be good at
Speaker 1: this other thing. So I'm starting to be in a
Speaker 1: position now where I'm trying to be imaginative about what
Speaker 1: the next step is. And as a poet, um, you know,
Speaker 1: that's my first published book as a book of poetry,
Speaker 1: and in many ways I came of age as a writer.
Speaker 1: As a poet. My milia and my social learning space
Speaker 1: is very much cultivated by poetry, and that has always
Speaker 1: been shaped by the legacy of Gwendolen Brooks. And what
Speaker 1: what Gwendolen Brooks teaches us is that it's not enough
Speaker 1: for you to just be, you know, to sit in
Speaker 1: your little like writing hobbit hole and like write the
Speaker 1: great American poem. But that actually, you know, for Gwendolen Brooks,
Speaker 1: being a poet meant sponsoring young people's poetry contest. Being
Speaker 1: a poet meant uh, you know, being in regular correspondence
Speaker 1: with people who were inspired, you know, by her being
Speaker 1: a poet meant teaching free workshops. And so my work
Speaker 1: as a poet has always been very much inflected with
Speaker 1: cultural organizing. And I'm trying to think now about what
Speaker 1: my role is in terms of opening up the space
Speaker 1: for other people. And you know, I just did a
Speaker 1: signing comic book signing this past weekend at on the
Speaker 1: South Side on fifty third Street. We were scheduled for
Speaker 1: two hours. I went to almost three and we had
Speaker 1: to cut the line off and it was amazing. But
Speaker 1: what I love about those signings is how many little
Speaker 1: black girls, girls in general, kids in general, kids of
Speaker 1: color in general, like, you know, all these different identities
Speaker 1: of young people, they come to get these signings. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they take a picture with me, and I love I
Speaker 1: just wanted to be completely mundane for them. I'm the
Speaker 1: fifth black woman ever to write Marvel comics, and you know,
Speaker 1: all five of us are like the first five are
Speaker 1: all like in you know, a stone's throw of each
Speaker 1: other in terms of timing, right, It's not like the
Speaker 1: first one was in like nineteen, you know, seventy years something.
Speaker 1: And so I want them to feel like this is
Speaker 1: as mundane and possible and doable and easy and seeable
Speaker 1: a path as like, you know, being a dentist or something.
Speaker 1: Can I share with you something that connects totally with
Speaker 1: what you're describing. So I don't know if you I
Speaker 1: can't imagine you have had this experience yet. But when
Speaker 1: I started at the Schomberg back in twenty eleven, one
Speaker 1: of the people worked for me was the director of education,
Speaker 1: woman named Deirdre Holman, And and Deirdre came up with
Speaker 1: this brilliant idea. She said, look, I know this guy
Speaker 1: named Jerry Kraft who is an illustrator, and this guy
Speaker 1: Jonathan Gayles, who is a scholar of black representation in
Speaker 1: comic books. And they've come to me and I say, Hey,
Speaker 1: Schamberg should be host to a black comic con. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, what a brilliant idea. And it just so
Speaker 1: happens that this January, starting the end of this week,
Speaker 1: is the tenth anniversary of the Schaumberg's Black Comic Con.
Speaker 1: Have you ever did you ever participate in it? Oh?
Speaker 1: My god, Khalil, Yeah, So I that's very emotional for
Speaker 1: me because the first time I went was as a fan,
Speaker 1: and I went to the first Black Comics fast of
Speaker 1: being at the Schomberg Center. Yeah, being at the Center,
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And I remember going to that and I
Speaker 1: there was a there was a panel about black women
Speaker 1: in comics, and I just was sitting there with my
Speaker 1: jaw just on the floor. And that panel was so
Speaker 1: important to me because, you know, prior to that, I
Speaker 1: had been to, you know, in independent I had just
Speaker 1: gone to another independent comics festival a few months prior
Speaker 1: to that, and I remember that one being you know,
Speaker 1: all white people with a few a few people of
Speaker 1: color kind of scattered throughout at that particular festival. And
Speaker 1: then I went to the Schaumberg Festival and it's like
Speaker 1: all black dudes, that's right, And so you know, it's
Speaker 1: like the panel, the Black women in Comics panel is
Speaker 1: kind of the only you know, it's like whoever's interested
Speaker 1: is going to show up for that. I actually remember
Speaker 1: that panel, go ahead, yeah, I mean it was, it was.
Speaker 1: It was a really important moment for me. And uh.
Speaker 1: And then I went and was on a panel um
Speaker 1: in January twenty twenty, and it was one of the
Speaker 1: last things I did before COVID shut down. And I
Speaker 1: remember Vita Ayala, who's an amazing non binary after latine
Speaker 1: UH comics writer, was also on the panel and and
Speaker 1: it was really powerful. And there's a today, So there's
Speaker 1: in the Schoenberg, there's a there's a exhibition about black comics.
Speaker 1: And there's a picture of me on that panel and
Speaker 1: for me, yes, and it's a quote from me on
Speaker 1: the wall, uh which this morning, as I was walking
Speaker 1: my dog, a friend of mine was like, Yo, I'm
Speaker 1: at the Schoenberg. They got you on the wall, you know,
Speaker 1: and I've a arrived and and it's just it's really special.
Speaker 1: But I think like continuing to build those spaces is
Speaker 1: really important because and one of the things that that
Speaker 1: festival does is is bringing lots and lots of young people.
Speaker 1: You know. I don't know if y'all remember this, but
Speaker 1: like for me, my parents' generation, you know, they talk about, um,
Speaker 1: you know, when a black person, we might be your
Speaker 1: parents generation not quite not quite nice try the nice try.
Speaker 1: You know. My parents' generation always talks about when a
Speaker 1: black person came on like the new like a black
Speaker 1: news anchor came on, or black person came on TV.
Speaker 1: Everybody would run in the room right, because it was
Speaker 1: like a huge deal and then by time, you know,
Speaker 1: I was a kid who's like, yeah, Robin Robinson's on
Speaker 1: TV every night, Like it's I'm happy for her, But
Speaker 1: like this is a mundane this is not a nothing
Speaker 1: to write home about. So like what I want is
Speaker 1: for you know, kids who grow up and who get
Speaker 1: to read these comics that I'm writing or meet me
Speaker 1: out of signing. I want them to be like equally unimpressed,
Speaker 1: you know, and I want them to be focused on like,
Speaker 1: all right, well, how many how where's the queer representation,
Speaker 1: Where's the disabled representation? Where's the undocumented representation? Black characters
Speaker 1: have been in comics for a minute, That's not enough, right,
Speaker 1: And so I want, you know, I want the trans
Speaker 1: Muslim disabled author writing the trans Muslim disabled heroes, you know.
Speaker 1: And not simply because we always have to have this
Speaker 1: like one to one, very limited reductive notion of what
Speaker 1: representation means, but because the more people we have at
Speaker 1: the table, the more we can actually do what comics
Speaker 1: and what Marvel Comics in particular has always promised and
Speaker 1: supposedly said it was going to do, which is show
Speaker 1: you the world outside your window. You know, yes, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I just think everybody, everybody should everybody jump
Speaker 1: in the pool. That's how I feel. So speaking of
Speaker 1: everyone jumping in the pool, we have seen an explosion
Speaker 1: of diversity, and you've already talked about Miss Marvel, We've
Speaker 1: talked about the new Black Captain America. But there's been
Speaker 1: tremendous backlash. And you know, you've talked about precisely how
Speaker 1: getting into comic books unleash some of the worst hatred
Speaker 1: that you've experienced personally. But we also know that the
Speaker 1: black girl who's going to play Arial in the upcoming
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid has been subject to all this total insanity
Speaker 1: and racism. There's a quote from The Washington Post that
Speaker 1: the trailer sparked anger and dismay among fans who felt
Speaker 1: that Ariel was written to be a white character, and
Speaker 1: these critics saw it Bailey's asking was nothing more than
Speaker 1: wokeness gone awry. I mean, so talk to us a
Speaker 1: little bit about the relationship of this work and what
Speaker 1: we're seeing happen with people who are pushing back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that in a way, there is
Speaker 1: actually an interesting analog. So, you know, I'm teaching this
Speaker 1: quarter and prepping to lecture tomorrow about critical race theory,
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, for the type of
Speaker 1: scholarly work that we do, there's an interesting analog here
Speaker 1: in terms of how you strike the balance between I
Speaker 1: think a number of sometimes competing needs that are all urgent.
Speaker 1: So one of them is recognizing the viciousness of the
Speaker 1: backlash but not only responding to it in a kind
Speaker 1: of sensationalized way, which I think is what a lot
Speaker 1: of mainstream media does, and instead taking a deeper look
Speaker 1: at what is beneath it, right, And that's where we
Speaker 1: dig into our critical race theory to help us understand,
Speaker 1: you know, when somebody gets really mad about a fictional
Speaker 1: character like Ariel, you know, being portrayed by Hallie Bailey.
Speaker 1: I think about when I first started writing Ironheart. The
Speaker 1: joke I always made was like, you know, at the time,
Speaker 1: I was using Twitter a lot, and I was using
Speaker 1: Twitter a lot to critique police and prisons and the
Speaker 1: mayor at the time and all these like, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty weighty political topics. And I always thought, like, so
Speaker 1: I can go on Twitter every day and say abolish
Speaker 1: the police. But and that's all fine, right, But if
Speaker 1: I say, if I'm writing a fictional story about a
Speaker 1: black girl who flies around and shoots laser beams out
Speaker 1: of her hands. That that's like a problem, Like what
Speaker 1: is that about, you know? And it's about young people,
Speaker 1: right at the end of the day. That's part of it.
Speaker 1: That's part of it. And I think that I think
Speaker 1: for me, one of the challenges with the comics stuff
Speaker 1: and the world of sci fi and star wars and
Speaker 1: specular fiction and all this being grounds for these kinds
Speaker 1: of reactionary takes is that it's really easy for people
Speaker 1: who love you, who are outside of these industries to
Speaker 1: say well meaning but ultimately unhelpful things like, well, that's
Speaker 1: just a bunch of losers in abasement. They suck, they
Speaker 1: couldn't even blah blah blah, and that stuff all might
Speaker 1: be true, but like they're just losers in abasement until
Speaker 1: they show up with a gun, right, And it takes
Speaker 1: a toll. It's taxing, right that this this kind of language,
Speaker 1: in this kind of experience is taxing. So I think
Speaker 1: one of the things that's really important for us to
Speaker 1: do is to step up and support and defend and
Speaker 1: celebrate the folks who, you know, have received these kinds
Speaker 1: of vicious attacks that these major media companies have had
Speaker 1: a really mixed back in defending defending people and having
Speaker 1: their back. But I think the third thing is like,
Speaker 1: you know, man, I gotta tell these stories, like I
Speaker 1: got to write these books. I really strike a balance
Speaker 1: between trying to be aware and be realistic and be
Speaker 1: safe about the folks that are out there that do
Speaker 1: not support this type of work. It is very important
Speaker 1: that I give them a mere infinitesimal fraction of the
Speaker 1: attention that I give writing good stories, you know, for
Speaker 1: Ben's kids to be like this, This made me feel seen.
Speaker 1: This is my origin story. And I think that one
Speaker 1: thing that my friends and I and these industries talk
Speaker 1: to each other about all the time and is that
Speaker 1: the internet is a vile place. And when I go
Speaker 1: to cons, when I do signings, when I do these events,
Speaker 1: the kid who comes up to me and hands me,
Speaker 1: they're like kind of crumply comic book, you know, standing
Speaker 1: there in their Black Panther costume or their Miss Marvel costume,
Speaker 1: and you know asks if they can sit on the
Speaker 1: table and take a picture with me. It is so
Speaker 1: important that that person takes up tends you know, manifold
Speaker 1: more time in my head. And because the moment I
Speaker 1: stop writing for them and start writing for those other people,
Speaker 1: what am I actually doing with the limited days I
Speaker 1: have on this planet? It's just a waste. And the
Speaker 1: other thing is that, you know, I'm going to quote
Speaker 1: something that Tanahassi said earlier to me many years ago,
Speaker 1: when when I said earlier that, like, I used to ask, like, well,
Speaker 1: why is this the thing that pisses people off so much?
Speaker 1: And he said, well, it's because they're right, They're right
Speaker 1: that this actually is threatening. It matters, right, like it
Speaker 1: actually really does matter. Comics as a medium were invented
Speaker 1: in the United States, right, certainly a pastiche of many
Speaker 1: things that had existed before, but invented in the United
Speaker 1: States context by and large by Eastern European Jewish immigrants
Speaker 1: and children of immigrants, right living in New York City.
Speaker 1: This history has always been about you know, subjugated people
Speaker 1: trying to tell these outlandish stories about what could be possible.
Speaker 1: And that is scary, That is countercultural, and I believe
Speaker 1: it remains countercultural even as these movies you know, take
Speaker 1: over the global box office and this and that. That's
Speaker 1: kind of the kernel that I'm that I'm trying to
Speaker 1: hang onto. Well, you love amazing, Amazing. We are going
Speaker 1: to take one more break. We were talking with Eve Ewing.
Speaker 1: We're talking about comics and superheroes and really everything else
Speaker 1: at this genre. This form tells about us and I
Speaker 1: guess you could say our alter egos. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back after the break. We are back on. Some of
Speaker 1: my best friends are with the amazing Eve, you and
Speaker 1: Holy cow Eve. There's something that's been coming up throughout
Speaker 1: this conversation, and actually, as I think about all of
Speaker 1: your work, there's this incredible focus on young people. And
Speaker 1: even the moment that I played the clip of my daughter,
Speaker 1: or when I mentioned my son, you lit up in
Speaker 1: a way which is like almost like nothing else. And
Speaker 1: I remember once we we met in a coffee shop
Speaker 1: and my son was there, and the way you talk
Speaker 1: to him about his bay blades, like like which these
Speaker 1: toys he had. You are so connected to young people,
Speaker 1: and it's so much a part of everything you do.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of wild. Yeah, I mean, thank
Speaker 1: you for seeing that. You know, as a writer, I
Speaker 1: believe that young people are very important in making literary canons.
Speaker 1: And I believe that oftentimes people who see themselves as
Speaker 1: serious writers don't take young readers seriously. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think I don't know why other people don't take young
Speaker 1: people seriously. To be honest with you, I was. I
Speaker 1: was joking with a friend of mine, a friend Kaba Akbar,
Speaker 1: who's a poet an also huge Simpsons fan, and he
Speaker 1: sent me this meme yesterday of Principal Skinner on The Simpsons,
Speaker 1: And in this meme, he's like, am I out of touch? No?
Speaker 1: It is the children. It's the children who are wrong,
Speaker 1: you know. And it's such a funny joke. But it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know about y'all, but when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I looked around at adults all the time, and I
Speaker 1: was so aware of this obvious logical fallacy, which was
Speaker 1: like you were like me once, right, you were like
Speaker 1: me once, which is something you can't really say about
Speaker 1: most social identities. But it's like everybody was a kid,
Speaker 1: and that I just used to stand around looking at adults,
Speaker 1: just pondering that fact, like every single one of you
Speaker 1: was my age. Yeah, we're all every age we were before, right, right,
Speaker 1: Like sandrasis Narrows teaches us, right, when you're eleven, you're
Speaker 1: also ten and nine and eight and seven, right, And
Speaker 1: so so I didn't understand then why it was that
Speaker 1: adults seemed to have so little regard for the inner
Speaker 1: life of kids. And I remember feeling that way as
Speaker 1: a kid and taking myself so seriously. I took myself
Speaker 1: so seriously as a reader and as a thinker, and
Speaker 1: had a lot of confidence in myself that the things
Speaker 1: that I had to say and the things that people
Speaker 1: around me felt and thought were important. And I didn't
Speaker 1: understand why adults didn't feel that way. And so I
Speaker 1: think I kind of made a pact with myself that
Speaker 1: I just never I just never wanted to be that person.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that I haven't failed at times.
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there are things that I did as
Speaker 1: a CPS teacher that I look back at, you know,
Speaker 1: moments of being public schools uh not not a Child
Speaker 1: Protective Services CHOB schools teacher, um, and ways in which
Speaker 1: as a teacher you get co opted into certain ways
Speaker 1: of treating kids or acting, you know. So, so it's
Speaker 1: not like I've always been perfect or that I'm never
Speaker 1: messed up, but I just I just really tried to
Speaker 1: keep that promise to myself. Um. And then I think
Speaker 1: on a more utilitarian level as a writer, I think
Speaker 1: that if you look around like young people reading in school,
Speaker 1: for many folks, that is the most robust and consistent
Speaker 1: reading life that they'll ever have. Um. Right, like the
Speaker 1: frequency with which you read, having time in the day
Speaker 1: you're marked to read and to talk to other people
Speaker 1: about what you're reading. Right, Like most people don't have
Speaker 1: that past high school. You come of age, you begin
Speaker 1: to be the person that you are in your engagement
Speaker 1: with literature. I believe when when you're young, and you know,
Speaker 1: many of us, I don't know about y'all, but I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm always chasing that like under the cover's feeling,
Speaker 1: you know, like the feeling you have when you're a
Speaker 1: kid reading a really great book, and you know. I
Speaker 1: remember when I was in seventh grade, my my aunt's
Speaker 1: boyfriend gave me a doggeared copy of Flowers for Algernon okay, um,
Speaker 1: and he was like, I think you'll really like this.
Speaker 1: And I remember reading it on this like sixteen hour
Speaker 1: road trip and I finished it and I just was
Speaker 1: just weeping alone in the back of the car and
Speaker 1: didn't couldn't even say anything to anybody, you know, And
Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm always chasing that, like I'm always
Speaker 1: trying to reclaim that as a person who reads and
Speaker 1: writes for a living now. And so I just think
Speaker 1: that is when we become, in many ways who we are.
Speaker 1: And that's not everybody. People have many different journeys, but
Speaker 1: I think that's some people. Yeah, and that's fine too,
Speaker 1: you know, but even for those even for those kids,
Speaker 1: I think I think many people who aren't bookish kids,
Speaker 1: there's something about storytelling that probably engaged you as a
Speaker 1: young person, right, And that could be like a person
Speaker 1: in your family that told really great stories. That could
Speaker 1: be a movie you really loved and watched over and
Speaker 1: over and over and over and over. You know, you
Speaker 1: talk about Spider Verse. You know. A friend of mine
Speaker 1: just sent me a video of her son. He's two
Speaker 1: years old, and it's him reciting one of the opening
Speaker 1: monologues from from into the Spider Verse, you know, from MEMBERY.
Speaker 1: He's like, Okay, let's try this one last time. My
Speaker 1: name is Peter Parker. You know, he's too right, That's
Speaker 1: that's one of his earliest texts that he's making a
Speaker 1: relationship with so I just think, um yeah, I just
Speaker 1: think as a writer, I try to everything that I've
Speaker 1: written so far, and I can't make this promise into
Speaker 1: the future, but everything I've written so far, I've tried
Speaker 1: to imagine that a young person of some age could
Speaker 1: read and enjoy. I feel very affirmed by what you said, Ben,
Speaker 1: because I just want to be a person who takes
Speaker 1: young people seriously, and I have to. I'd be really
Speaker 1: remiss and probably in big trouble in case you ever
Speaker 1: hears this if I didn't give a shout out to
Speaker 1: my mom, because when I was a kid, my mom
Speaker 1: always said children are to be seen and listen to. Um,
Speaker 1: oh that's great, said that all the time. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then she would always be like, you know, I would
Speaker 1: get an arguments a mom, and she'd be like, it's
Speaker 1: so annoying how I raised you to express your opinion.
Speaker 1: Because I really don't want to have this argument with
Speaker 1: you right now. But like, but I but it's my
Speaker 1: own fault, Like I'm being punished for encouraging you to
Speaker 1: to speak up all the time. Yeah. I just want
Speaker 1: to say this has been really wonderful. Keep doing what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Thank you. That's a that's a Black proverb.
Speaker 1: Keep doing what you're doing. We are we are grateful
Speaker 1: for your contributions. I have to say I wore this
Speaker 1: T shirt just for you today. Black scholars Matter. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that's right, but you are way more than
Speaker 1: that and just excited to see what is in the
Speaker 1: future for you. And I'm going to keep reading Ironheart.
Speaker 1: You can count on it. Thank you, and Khalil, I
Speaker 1: meant it when I said, you know, for me, when
Speaker 1: people say this is the first comic book I've ever read,
Speaker 1: that's a huge compliment because I do want this to
Speaker 1: feel like a welcoming space that hasn't always been welcoming
Speaker 1: to lots of people, So that means a lot to me,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate you giving it a shot. Awesome. Thanks
Speaker 1: than thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much. Thanks Kalil,
Speaker 1: So Khalil, Uh huh what's the superpower that you would want?
Speaker 1: Oh man, put me on the spot. Come on, I
Speaker 1: kind of think, I don't know, this seems so lame,
Speaker 1: but reading people's minds, m you don't already have that power.
Speaker 1: You seem so discerning. I'm pretty good at it, but man,
Speaker 1: it'd be it'd be wonderful to know. I'm right. Interesting, Interesting,
Speaker 1: you're a snoop. You're a snoop. So I think teleportation
Speaker 1: would be cool, you know, just to get somewhere really fast.
Speaker 1: But then listening to Eve talk about having a long
Speaker 1: trip and reading an entire book, I kind of like that.
Speaker 1: I've been thinking after speaking with Eve about what her
Speaker 1: superpower is. And I know, I know she's like, I'm
Speaker 1: just an ordinary, you know, citizen doing my job kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. You know, I don't want the distance between
Speaker 1: me and everybody else to be that great, right, But
Speaker 1: talking with her, man, this this combination of her intellect
Speaker 1: and her analysis and just how smart she is and
Speaker 1: also how at the same time how empathetic she is,
Speaker 1: how caring, Yes, and those two things she has the
Speaker 1: analysis of the caring and the empathy, and it's it's
Speaker 1: part of her intelligence and vice versa, and that is
Speaker 1: really rare. That's a superpower. Yeah right, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's right. And I think that's what makes her appetite
Speaker 1: and curiosity for trying to make sense of really complicated things.
Speaker 1: And here's the other side of it. Just to explicate
Speaker 1: what you're saying and then do it for young people,
Speaker 1: like to say, I want young people to see how
Speaker 1: this works in the way that adults sometimes figure it out.
Speaker 1: But they shouldn't have to wait. They have every right
Speaker 1: to understand this stuff as much as anybody and to
Speaker 1: be part of the story. That's that is a rare
Speaker 1: gift that she has. And the thing she said about
Speaker 1: about when she was assigned to add to reread William's
Speaker 1: story ironhout story of asking that question like who are
Speaker 1: her people right, who cares about her? Who loves her? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and thinking about that that wider world that's connected
Speaker 1: with what you just said. It's like it's both just
Speaker 1: being like a good writer and thinker, but it is
Speaker 1: thinking about this larger community, you know, especially for this
Speaker 1: this young this black girl, Like who does she need
Speaker 1: in her world to bolster her? That's to keep her going.
Speaker 1: And it also cuts against traditions in the canon of
Speaker 1: Western literature, which is generally about the individual protagonist who
Speaker 1: by dint of their superpowers, can do everything on their own.
Speaker 1: And what she's saying is actually, we need each other.
Speaker 1: And in a way, that's the story of Wakanda, that's
Speaker 1: the story of black Panther as a series. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's kind of the intervention that's happening in this Marvel universe,
Speaker 1: and that that scary collectivism that folks on the right
Speaker 1: are basically saying, all this race stuff in these racial
Speaker 1: representations are going to be the ruin of us. And
Speaker 1: guess what, they're right, We're coming. I'm glad you're getting
Speaker 1: into comics and you're getting into superheroes because you're seeing that,
Speaker 1: you're seeing that it is just like the real world,
Speaker 1: that it's a way to make sense of it, in
Speaker 1: the way to expand our understanding and our imagination. And
Speaker 1: guess what, there's this whole field of afrofuturism that uses
Speaker 1: comics as the way it will imagine a future that's
Speaker 1: different than the present. And that makes me feel better
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's all this stuff we talk about can
Speaker 1: be a little depressing. So I'm going to read more
Speaker 1: comic books in twenty twenty three. All right, well, I
Speaker 1: love you, Love you too. Some of My Best Friends
Speaker 1: Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is
Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron Mohammed, and my
Speaker 1: best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Jonasanti and Lucy Sullivan.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Knicks, our engineer is Amanda Kawan,
Speaker 1: and our managing producer is Katonstanza Gallardo. At Pushkin thanks
Speaker 1: to Leita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars,
Speaker 1: Greta Khne, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily,
Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from
Speaker 1: his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his
Speaker 1: music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
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Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you for yeoh. Earlier in the
Speaker 1: episode when you said, Wakanda, what accent was that? What
Speaker 1: are you talking about? That's Chad Bowsman. I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: just keeping I've keeping the accent alive. I don't know,
Speaker 1: all right. So I found out the secret that Eve
Speaker 1: couldn't tell us about what Marvel comics she's writing. She's
Speaker 1: actually writing the new Black Panther comic. Holy smokes, Really, man,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be amazing. Yes it is. I can't wait.