1
00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,556
Speaker 1: Pushing last things to say. Are you guys exciting? Yes?

2
00:00:25,116 --> 00:00:28,076
Speaker 1: Are you recording? Oh? Yeah, Well in this movie, I

3
00:00:28,116 --> 00:00:30,716
Speaker 1: don't think no way this movie is bad. No one

4
00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:32,796
Speaker 1: in this movie is bad. It's gonna be good no

5
00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:44,196
Speaker 1: matter what. Yeah. Well, okay, I'm Khalil Jabron Mohammed, I'm

6
00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,276
Speaker 1: Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

7
00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:52,476
Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

8
00:00:52,556 --> 00:00:55,076
Speaker 1: some of my best friends are some of my best

9
00:00:55,116 --> 00:00:59,156
Speaker 1: friends are. And listen, Khalil, you just heard your nephew,

10
00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:04,356
Speaker 1: my son Jonah Romeo Austin and talking about talking about

11
00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:08,796
Speaker 1: how much he's gonna love Wakanda Forever, the Black Panther movie. Yes,

12
00:01:09,116 --> 00:01:12,436
Speaker 1: Wakonda Forever. Did you dress up? Did everybody dress up

13
00:01:12,436 --> 00:01:15,796
Speaker 1: in costumes? Oh? Man, we had makeup? We had no no, no, no,

14
00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,356
Speaker 1: we just we just went. But but man, you heard

15
00:01:18,396 --> 00:01:20,516
Speaker 1: how excited he was. And he wasn't wrong. He was

16
00:01:20,556 --> 00:01:22,756
Speaker 1: going to enjoy that movie no matter what. That's right,

17
00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:25,756
Speaker 1: because this is a movie with high stakes. This is

18
00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:28,836
Speaker 1: a movie with so many representations of black people and

19
00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:32,476
Speaker 1: black women, indigenous populations. And we get to talk to

20
00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:36,476
Speaker 1: Eve Ewing, who is a writer and poet and contributes

21
00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,956
Speaker 1: to one of the characters were Williams, who makes her

22
00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:42,836
Speaker 1: debut in Wakonda Forever on the big screen. Yeah, yeah,

23
00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:46,756
Speaker 1: we are. We are talking about Marvel comics. We're talking

24
00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:52,676
Speaker 1: about superheroes, We're talking about representation, We're talking about superpowers

25
00:01:52,676 --> 00:02:05,236
Speaker 1: of all kinds. Let's go into the episode. Oh man,

26
00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:07,396
Speaker 1: this is so exciting. I love that Jonah was so

27
00:02:07,396 --> 00:02:09,796
Speaker 1: excited and said there can be no wrong in this movie.

28
00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:12,676
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Ryan Coogler. Of course, I

29
00:02:12,756 --> 00:02:14,636
Speaker 1: got dressed up to go see Black Panther a few

30
00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:18,516
Speaker 1: years ago. My whole family wents to see Wakonda Forever recently,

31
00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:22,996
Speaker 1: And now we get to talk to one of the

32
00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:27,476
Speaker 1: contributors to this Marvel universe, Ewing, And she's somebody you

33
00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:30,516
Speaker 1: actually know and spend a lot of time with. Yeah, well,

34
00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:32,396
Speaker 1: I know where from Chicago. We're part of the same

35
00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:36,716
Speaker 1: tribe here in the city. And she is so multi

36
00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:40,676
Speaker 1: talented Eve Viewing. I mean, she is accomplished in this

37
00:02:40,956 --> 00:02:44,836
Speaker 1: broad array of different fields, and she's so accomplished in

38
00:02:44,876 --> 00:02:47,236
Speaker 1: so many different things that we could probably start to

39
00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,196
Speaker 1: talk about all the things that she does that we're

40
00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:53,596
Speaker 1: not going to focus on in this episode. That's right, Yeah,

41
00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:56,556
Speaker 1: because I know her work as a scholar and sociologist

42
00:02:56,636 --> 00:03:00,356
Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago. She's done amazing work on

43
00:03:00,636 --> 00:03:04,796
Speaker 1: inequality in our public school systems and the school closings

44
00:03:04,836 --> 00:03:07,836
Speaker 1: that had a really traumatic effect on the South and

45
00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:11,636
Speaker 1: West sides of Chicago years ago. Yeah, that's not something

46
00:03:11,636 --> 00:03:13,156
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about. And you know what else we're

47
00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:16,196
Speaker 1: not going to talk about. She is this amazing accomplished poet.

48
00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:19,516
Speaker 1: She's also a children's book author. I mean she she

49
00:03:19,636 --> 00:03:22,836
Speaker 1: can't not do everything to use a double nag. Yeah, no, no,

50
00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:26,996
Speaker 1: but even more, even more, she's an activist. She's an organizer.

51
00:03:27,476 --> 00:03:30,876
Speaker 1: During COVID, when I had not left the house for

52
00:03:30,916 --> 00:03:33,316
Speaker 1: like four months and I was at my lowest point,

53
00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:39,436
Speaker 1: she helped organize of basically like a food drive for

54
00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:42,236
Speaker 1: families who were enrolled in public schools. But we're not

55
00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:44,676
Speaker 1: getting the free and reduced lunch and breakfast that they

56
00:03:44,716 --> 00:03:47,676
Speaker 1: needed for nutrition. Wow, and so like it got me

57
00:03:47,716 --> 00:03:49,556
Speaker 1: out of the house. I bought all these groceries. I

58
00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:51,876
Speaker 1: brought him over there. There were so many people fit.

59
00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:54,476
Speaker 1: It made me suddenly feel good again and feel like

60
00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:57,276
Speaker 1: I was connected to the community. That's her work. Yeah,

61
00:03:57,276 --> 00:03:59,476
Speaker 1: and I mean, and here we are basically about to

62
00:03:59,516 --> 00:04:02,436
Speaker 1: talk about superheroes, you know, both on the big screen

63
00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:05,916
Speaker 1: and in comic books. And in a way. I know

64
00:04:06,036 --> 00:04:08,916
Speaker 1: she doesn't like to be described this way, but she's

65
00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:11,796
Speaker 1: only super talented. Let's put it that way, man, She

66
00:04:11,916 --> 00:04:14,116
Speaker 1: is super talented. I mean. One of the things that's

67
00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:16,676
Speaker 1: amazing about her to me is that she works in

68
00:04:16,716 --> 00:04:19,076
Speaker 1: all these different fields. And so now she's even working

69
00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:22,356
Speaker 1: in the Marvel universe. So this academic poet, you know,

70
00:04:22,476 --> 00:04:26,396
Speaker 1: she's also writing comics that you know, she makes all

71
00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,476
Speaker 1: these different fields her own in a way that feels

72
00:04:29,476 --> 00:04:34,076
Speaker 1: really unique and empowered. Um, I'm gonna quote James Bald,

73
00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:37,076
Speaker 1: you know, because I want to sound smart, Okay, but

74
00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:39,156
Speaker 1: but I do always think about this quote when I

75
00:04:39,196 --> 00:04:41,836
Speaker 1: think about Eve, and the quote is the place in

76
00:04:41,876 --> 00:04:44,876
Speaker 1: which I'll fit will not exist until I make it.

77
00:04:44,956 --> 00:04:53,596
Speaker 1: Oh and she somehow goes yea. So then you're such

78
00:04:53,636 --> 00:04:55,356
Speaker 1: a big fan of comics. I mean, what do you

79
00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:58,316
Speaker 1: know about Ianheart? So she writes this comic book from Marvel.

80
00:04:58,676 --> 00:05:02,236
Speaker 1: It's about this young woman, a black girl from the

81
00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:05,796
Speaker 1: South Side of Chicago. Her name is re Ree Williams.

82
00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:09,796
Speaker 1: And you know, she is basically creates an Iron Man

83
00:05:09,916 --> 00:05:14,556
Speaker 1: suit for herself, you know, and she doesn't have superpowers,

84
00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:17,676
Speaker 1: but she has an intelligence which is extraordinary, and she's

85
00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:20,676
Speaker 1: able to become the superhero through that. Yeah, that character

86
00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:23,076
Speaker 1: sounds so interesting and certainly she came to life on

87
00:05:23,116 --> 00:05:25,796
Speaker 1: the big screen. I have to tell you, though, I mean,

88
00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:28,836
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big a deal this was for

89
00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:31,476
Speaker 1: even I can't wait to hear her talk more about it.

90
00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:33,756
Speaker 1: Not too long ago, she wrote in The New York

91
00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:35,636
Speaker 1: Times and op ed that I happened to read call

92
00:05:35,716 --> 00:05:39,556
Speaker 1: Flying while Black, and she talked about how significant doing

93
00:05:39,596 --> 00:05:42,876
Speaker 1: this kind of representational work in the comic book space is.

94
00:05:43,356 --> 00:05:46,516
Speaker 1: She said that she'd worked on policing and politics and education.

95
00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:48,716
Speaker 1: She'd done all the things that we know she is

96
00:05:48,756 --> 00:05:52,356
Speaker 1: so talented at. But she said nothing had attracted a

97
00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:57,036
Speaker 1: firestorm of hate and vitriol directed towards her, like her

98
00:05:57,076 --> 00:06:02,556
Speaker 1: work on writing Ironheart Man. That is something that's wild.

99
00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:05,516
Speaker 1: So listen, man, let's just get to eat yea, because

100
00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,236
Speaker 1: let's hear her unpack some of this and talk about

101
00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:12,916
Speaker 1: about her work in the superhero realm. Let's do it all, right,

102
00:06:19,476 --> 00:06:22,836
Speaker 1: Eve ewing. Oh my gosh, it's so great to see you.

103
00:06:23,276 --> 00:06:26,556
Speaker 1: Oh thanks for having me. Yeah, welcome, welcome to Some

104
00:06:26,556 --> 00:06:28,476
Speaker 1: of my best friends are really happy to have you here.

105
00:06:28,796 --> 00:06:31,276
Speaker 1: We get to talk to you Eve on the very

106
00:06:31,356 --> 00:06:34,196
Speaker 1: day that a new issue of a Marvel comic that

107
00:06:34,236 --> 00:06:38,756
Speaker 1: you write is dropping, right, Yeah, issue to a Photon

108
00:06:38,956 --> 00:06:42,636
Speaker 1: featuring Monica Rambo. You got it, you got it. And

109
00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:46,396
Speaker 1: for folks listening, that's Rambo like U R A M

110
00:06:46,516 --> 00:06:50,276
Speaker 1: B E A U. Not Rambo like Sebuster stallone, but

111
00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,916
Speaker 1: or like Rambo the poet. Yeah, exactly exactly, because with

112
00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,956
Speaker 1: you they might have thought it was, you know, not

113
00:06:58,996 --> 00:07:02,116
Speaker 1: that one. So well, we actually wanted to start by

114
00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:05,836
Speaker 1: talking to you about, you know, this other comic book

115
00:07:05,956 --> 00:07:09,876
Speaker 1: that you write, Um, yeah, you know iron Heart, and

116
00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:12,476
Speaker 1: you know this exciting new character, the superhero in the

117
00:07:12,516 --> 00:07:16,836
Speaker 1: Marvel universe. Ironheart's alter ego is Rere Williams. She's this

118
00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:20,996
Speaker 1: genius from the South Side of Chicago and what yep,

119
00:07:21,076 --> 00:07:24,676
Speaker 1: south side And you know many people have met re

120
00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:27,636
Speaker 1: Re because they saw her in the Black Panther movie,

121
00:07:27,716 --> 00:07:30,596
Speaker 1: the new one. Were Conda forever, Yeah, Conda forever, yes,

122
00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:36,276
Speaker 1: Wada forever exactly and actually, uh, when I went. I

123
00:07:36,596 --> 00:07:39,156
Speaker 1: took my kids to see that that movie were Conda

124
00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:44,036
Speaker 1: Forever on opening day, and they wanted me to record them, um,

125
00:07:44,396 --> 00:07:45,996
Speaker 1: you know, actually to hope that I would play it

126
00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:48,236
Speaker 1: for you. And I'm gonna play a little recording of

127
00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:50,716
Speaker 1: my daughter. We were doing a little debrief in the

128
00:07:50,716 --> 00:07:53,516
Speaker 1: car ride home and she was talking about how many

129
00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:57,476
Speaker 1: smart black women are in this movie. Oh my gosh,

130
00:07:57,516 --> 00:08:02,196
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Roll the tape. I thought it was

131
00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:04,796
Speaker 1: it was cool to see like like they didn't need

132
00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:08,396
Speaker 1: to bring in like somebody, like it was another smart

133
00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:11,196
Speaker 1: black woman. Like they didn't feel like too smart black women,

134
00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,116
Speaker 1: that's too many, like that there could be two of

135
00:08:14,156 --> 00:08:16,436
Speaker 1: them and they could exist without competing and they could

136
00:08:16,436 --> 00:08:19,236
Speaker 1: be like friends. Yeah, like because normally it would either

137
00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:21,516
Speaker 1: be like competitive or what I would have to be white,

138
00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:26,196
Speaker 1: but there were there was none of that. Wow, great review. Yeah,

139
00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:28,036
Speaker 1: And I mean if you think about it, for me,

140
00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:30,556
Speaker 1: what was remarkable about that film is that they're like

141
00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:34,756
Speaker 1: wealth and riches of of of incredible black women, um

142
00:08:35,556 --> 00:08:37,836
Speaker 1: in a way that I think is a critical mass

143
00:08:37,876 --> 00:08:41,596
Speaker 1: that is pretty rarely seen in popular culture, in popular movies,

144
00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:44,116
Speaker 1: especially in a movie that is like considered to be

145
00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:45,796
Speaker 1: what you know, what we call like a tentpole movie,

146
00:08:45,836 --> 00:08:49,156
Speaker 1: like a movie for everybody. I remember several years ago, Um,

147
00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:52,876
Speaker 1: the movie Best Man Holiday came out, right, and yeah,

148
00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:55,036
Speaker 1: the Best Man's series. It's like Leo and I have

149
00:08:55,116 --> 00:08:59,156
Speaker 1: just been catching up on those and watching them together show. Yeah.

150
00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:02,116
Speaker 1: So you know Best Man Holiday, like it's a holiday movie,

151
00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:04,676
Speaker 1: it's about friends. It's like a middle aged people movie

152
00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:07,716
Speaker 1: whatever whatever. And I remember USA Today had this, had

153
00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:11,676
Speaker 1: this headline. It was like race themed movies, uh, succeed

154
00:09:11,716 --> 00:09:13,476
Speaker 1: at the box at the box office. And you know,

155
00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:15,796
Speaker 1: Bestman Holiday is not a race themed movie, right, It's

156
00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:19,476
Speaker 1: a movie about black people doing stuff like having Christmas

157
00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:24,516
Speaker 1: and yeah and being pugi and right. And I think

158
00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:27,716
Speaker 1: that the but but that that lends the idea that

159
00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:31,716
Speaker 1: like the mere presence of black people obliterates the possibility

160
00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:35,276
Speaker 1: of any other kind of thematic exploration. Um. And you know,

161
00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:38,076
Speaker 1: to your daughter's point, the fact that like one smart

162
00:09:38,116 --> 00:09:40,956
Speaker 1: black girl is already pushing it and then more than

163
00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:43,356
Speaker 1: one is too much. You know. In the movie, you

164
00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:46,196
Speaker 1: have you have Rere, you have Shari, you have Nakia,

165
00:09:46,316 --> 00:09:49,116
Speaker 1: you have a Koya, you know, and you have Queen Ramanda.

166
00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:52,396
Speaker 1: So you have these five black women, Um that all

167
00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:56,596
Speaker 1: our leaders and amazing people in their own way. You know,

168
00:09:57,076 --> 00:10:01,036
Speaker 1: never in twenty thousand lifetimes when I was sitting down

169
00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:04,836
Speaker 1: to write that comic book that I imagine uh, you know,

170
00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:08,076
Speaker 1: sitting in a in a premiere in Hollywood, Um, seeing

171
00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:10,676
Speaker 1: that character come to this green and so it's definitely

172
00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:13,996
Speaker 1: been a wild journey. Well that's exactly what we want

173
00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:15,556
Speaker 1: to talk about. First of all, I have to admit,

174
00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:18,796
Speaker 1: I mean this is both embarrassing and also I think

175
00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:23,476
Speaker 1: a compliment to you. I had never read a comic

176
00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:26,196
Speaker 1: book cover to cover until I read the first and

177
00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:28,916
Speaker 1: second issues of Ironheart. I mean that that is That's

178
00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:32,196
Speaker 1: a huge compliment. Kid, that's a huge compliment. That's a

179
00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:34,636
Speaker 1: huge compliment. But he also he also wouldn't buy them.

180
00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:36,996
Speaker 1: I had to photo photo, you know. I took pictures

181
00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:43,996
Speaker 1: of him with my phone and said the like, I refuse. Yeah.

182
00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:46,796
Speaker 1: I mean so, so I want to know, actually, how

183
00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:49,476
Speaker 1: did you develop this character? I mean, what what was

184
00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:54,516
Speaker 1: the process? How did you make reread the inspiration? Talk

185
00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:58,156
Speaker 1: to us about the backstory? Sure, so, you know, I

186
00:10:58,196 --> 00:11:00,516
Speaker 1: think that one thing that's important to clarify is that

187
00:11:00,556 --> 00:11:03,396
Speaker 1: I didn't create the character, right, and so so Brian

188
00:11:03,436 --> 00:11:08,076
Speaker 1: Michael Bendis, who is also his very prolific comics writer,

189
00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:11,356
Speaker 1: veteran of the End Street. Um. If you are familiar

190
00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:16,236
Speaker 1: with the character Miles Morales from who Everybody Loves up

191
00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:19,956
Speaker 1: right into the Spider Verse. Yeah, so so Brian Michael

192
00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:23,676
Speaker 1: Bennis also created Miles. Um. So he created Rear Williams

193
00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:27,436
Speaker 1: several years ago, and um, you know, created her as

194
00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:30,516
Speaker 1: kind of at a time when Tony Stark was out

195
00:11:30,556 --> 00:11:34,876
Speaker 1: of commission in the Marvel universe. Um. And so the

196
00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:36,996
Speaker 1: story that he created her kind of backstory was that

197
00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:38,956
Speaker 1: she was this black girl genius. She was fifteen, she

198
00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:41,236
Speaker 1: was from the South Side Chicago. She went to MIT,

199
00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:45,596
Speaker 1: and she basically reverse engineered, uh, the the equivalent of

200
00:11:45,636 --> 00:11:49,316
Speaker 1: Tony Stark's Iron Man armor by herself in her dorm room. Right.

201
00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,196
Speaker 1: The idea being that you know, Tony Stark is, you know,

202
00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:57,356
Speaker 1: a billionaire who's inherited every social privilege that you could imagine,

203
00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:59,476
Speaker 1: and his father was a weapons manufacturer and all this

204
00:11:59,916 --> 00:12:03,436
Speaker 1: and um, and what he did with you know, years

205
00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:05,876
Speaker 1: of the best schooling. Re redid like on a whim

206
00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:10,276
Speaker 1: in a dorm um and from Black Girl. Yeah, exactly,

207
00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:14,036
Speaker 1: and so um. But part of a big part of

208
00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:18,716
Speaker 1: her biography was that she had lost her father to

209
00:12:18,796 --> 00:12:21,516
Speaker 1: gun violence when she was a baby, That she had

210
00:12:21,556 --> 00:12:25,036
Speaker 1: lost her stepfather to gun violence when she was young,

211
00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:27,516
Speaker 1: like about ten or eleven, and that in that same

212
00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,476
Speaker 1: drive by that her best friend was also shot and killed.

213
00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:34,116
Speaker 1: And so that's a very complicated narrative to receive. And

214
00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:36,196
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, because on the one hand,

215
00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:39,636
Speaker 1: as a Chicago and you know, I and you know,

216
00:12:39,836 --> 00:12:41,796
Speaker 1: everybody here, all of us in different ways have been

217
00:12:41,916 --> 00:12:44,636
Speaker 1: have been touched by gun violence. Gun violence has impacted

218
00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:47,556
Speaker 1: our lives, and that's real. And then on the other hand,

219
00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,076
Speaker 1: what does it mean for this character to primarily be

220
00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:54,076
Speaker 1: defined by those losses? So, you know, so when when

221
00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,076
Speaker 1: I was asked to give my take on the character,

222
00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:58,956
Speaker 1: I had never written for Marvel before, and you know,

223
00:12:58,956 --> 00:13:00,996
Speaker 1: they asked me to come in and meet with them,

224
00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:03,996
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I had this meeting and I

225
00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:05,876
Speaker 1: went in and it's like, it's kind of like if

226
00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:07,756
Speaker 1: NASA called me, like you know, the movie The Moment

227
00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:09,916
Speaker 1: and a movie like Armageddon or something thing where you know,

228
00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:13,876
Speaker 1: Bruce Willis is like, but I'm just an oil rig operator,

229
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:15,996
Speaker 1: like you know, what does what does the government want

230
00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:18,076
Speaker 1: with me? Where it's like, you know, I'm just a humble,

231
00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:21,276
Speaker 1: you know, poet and local nerd. Like I went in.

232
00:13:21,316 --> 00:13:25,836
Speaker 1: I had this meeting, and I went in letting them know, like,

233
00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:28,076
Speaker 1: these are the questions that I have about this character

234
00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:29,836
Speaker 1: that I think that as a reader, as a fan,

235
00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:32,196
Speaker 1: that I think need to be answered. And some of

236
00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:35,156
Speaker 1: my questions were, you know, okay, if if you're a

237
00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:37,436
Speaker 1: black team girl from the South Side who's lost all

238
00:13:37,436 --> 00:13:40,356
Speaker 1: these loved ones to gun violence, what compels you to

239
00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:42,916
Speaker 1: go out and risk your life every single day? Um

240
00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:45,316
Speaker 1: reads raised by a single mom. One of my biggest

241
00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:48,956
Speaker 1: questions was like, what black mom is allowing this to happen? Like,

242
00:13:49,276 --> 00:13:50,996
Speaker 1: you know, like I was like, there's no way my

243
00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:57,156
Speaker 1: mom would are you joking? Like absolutely not, absolutely not.

244
00:13:57,196 --> 00:13:58,596
Speaker 1: She'd be like, you know, I don't care. That might

245
00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:03,876
Speaker 1: be what your friends would do, you know, and so yeah, exactly,

246
00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:07,036
Speaker 1: so So that was those are the questions that I asked,

247
00:14:07,076 --> 00:14:09,196
Speaker 1: and I said to them at that time, you know,

248
00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:11,356
Speaker 1: if I might take on this character would be to

249
00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,636
Speaker 1: try to fill out what is her social world? Like

250
00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:16,756
Speaker 1: who are the people who love her we fall in

251
00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:19,396
Speaker 1: love for with superheroes, they have the longevity that they

252
00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:21,676
Speaker 1: have not because of the person with the powers or

253
00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:23,556
Speaker 1: the person with the costume, but because of the person

254
00:14:23,636 --> 00:14:29,516
Speaker 1: beneath the suit, right, and so you know exactly, So

255
00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:31,916
Speaker 1: those are the type of questions I wanted us to know,

256
00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:34,476
Speaker 1: like who is rear, what is she about? Why is

257
00:14:34,476 --> 00:14:37,156
Speaker 1: she doing this? Who are her friends? What's annoying about her?

258
00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:40,116
Speaker 1: What's great about her? And and also for her to

259
00:14:40,116 --> 00:14:43,076
Speaker 1: be defined by a social world that felt real, for

260
00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:45,876
Speaker 1: us to feel like she had a cast of characters

261
00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:49,676
Speaker 1: of people who support her and who you know, kind

262
00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:51,356
Speaker 1: of make fun of her, keep her head from getting

263
00:14:51,356 --> 00:14:54,796
Speaker 1: too big, you know. And I think that that approach

264
00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:57,996
Speaker 1: of going in with the questions that I have as

265
00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:02,156
Speaker 1: a reader are are really that's something that I carry

266
00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:04,596
Speaker 1: over from the other you know, genres in which I've

267
00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:06,676
Speaker 1: trained I mean, Khalil definitely as a scholar. This is

268
00:15:06,676 --> 00:15:08,676
Speaker 1: what we're trained to do, right, is you read the

269
00:15:08,716 --> 00:15:11,236
Speaker 1: literature and you say like, all right, well, what's the gap?

270
00:15:11,316 --> 00:15:13,596
Speaker 1: Like what do we not know? And so that's that's

271
00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:16,436
Speaker 1: kind of what's my intervention. And I think that when

272
00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:19,156
Speaker 1: you're writing characters that you know, reason more recent character.

273
00:15:19,236 --> 00:15:21,156
Speaker 1: But you know, I've also gotten to write, um, you know,

274
00:15:21,276 --> 00:15:23,996
Speaker 1: Peter Parker story and Miss Marvel, and I'm working on

275
00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:26,396
Speaker 1: and and Monica. You know, Monica's a character that's been

276
00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:29,836
Speaker 1: around for forty years. Um, I'm working on another story

277
00:15:29,836 --> 00:15:31,116
Speaker 1: now that I can't say who it is, but it's

278
00:15:31,156 --> 00:15:35,516
Speaker 1: another legacy character. Come, I can't do it. I can't.

279
00:15:35,676 --> 00:15:37,956
Speaker 1: I can't. They'll come, They'll come and get me. But

280
00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:40,556
Speaker 1: you know, the question is always like, well, what do

281
00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:42,476
Speaker 1: we what do we need to know? Like what's missing

282
00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:44,916
Speaker 1: for me as a reader? And and trying to write

283
00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:47,676
Speaker 1: a character that, uh, that feels real to people, that

284
00:15:47,716 --> 00:15:50,556
Speaker 1: feels relatable to people, that feels like somebody you kind

285
00:15:50,556 --> 00:15:52,156
Speaker 1: of want to give a hug too sometimes and you

286
00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:55,036
Speaker 1: want to shake her other times. Who messes up a lot?

287
00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:57,356
Speaker 1: You know? Can I just say one of the biggest

288
00:15:57,356 --> 00:16:00,716
Speaker 1: surprises though, was that you chose the Harvard Kennedy School

289
00:16:01,196 --> 00:16:05,796
Speaker 1: as the site for this like cinematic battle that takes

290
00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:10,116
Speaker 1: place with Ironheart and the and the Villain. And I'm like, what, yeah,

291
00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:17,636
Speaker 1: actually a job. Yeah. So at the time when when

292
00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:20,916
Speaker 1: Brian left off his narrative arc for re read the

293
00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:23,756
Speaker 1: end of his story was basically that the Dean of

294
00:16:23,956 --> 00:16:28,356
Speaker 1: MIT gives her this lab um and is like, you know,

295
00:16:28,396 --> 00:16:30,116
Speaker 1: now you have this all awesome lab You could do

296
00:16:30,196 --> 00:16:32,716
Speaker 1: whatever you want with it, like congratulations, go be a hero.

297
00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:36,036
Speaker 1: And and that's kind of like a happy ending. Now

298
00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:39,916
Speaker 1: I read that as an academic right, And what we

299
00:16:40,036 --> 00:16:42,716
Speaker 1: know is that if the dean gives you a lab

300
00:16:42,796 --> 00:16:45,956
Speaker 1: there's a lot of strings attall. You know that, Like,

301
00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:49,436
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not necessarily easy happy ending. He's

302
00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:52,196
Speaker 1: trying to he's trying to use her bring people in

303
00:16:52,196 --> 00:16:54,796
Speaker 1: to raise money to Yeah, it's a fun raise right,

304
00:16:54,996 --> 00:16:59,356
Speaker 1: what a you know what an academic sub subplot um?

305
00:16:59,556 --> 00:17:02,076
Speaker 1: You know. The fun and the challenge of it is

306
00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:05,036
Speaker 1: that you're picking up the reins. It's like that story

307
00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:07,196
Speaker 1: you play with with kids, like let's all go around

308
00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:09,916
Speaker 1: and you know, add tell a story together and everybody

309
00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,716
Speaker 1: adds a sentence, right, everybody says what happens next? Um,

310
00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:18,316
Speaker 1: and and so you don't get to just abruptly. You know.

311
00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:21,796
Speaker 1: Comics fans are very big on continuity um and the

312
00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:24,276
Speaker 1: stereotype of the nerd who's going to be like, well,

313
00:17:24,276 --> 00:17:26,556
Speaker 1: how come an issue for they had this you know,

314
00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:28,796
Speaker 1: this happened, but an issue seven of this other thing.

315
00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:30,636
Speaker 1: This happened, but like that is a real thing. We

316
00:17:30,676 --> 00:17:34,236
Speaker 1: try to keep continuity and so um. Yeah, so you know,

317
00:17:34,276 --> 00:17:37,036
Speaker 1: they say, right, what you know, Khalil side, that's right.

318
00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:40,036
Speaker 1: I've spent some time around Cambridge and uh and so

319
00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:42,036
Speaker 1: you know, even though I was not an MIT student,

320
00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:44,036
Speaker 1: I was a I was a Harvard doctoral student. I

321
00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:46,556
Speaker 1: was wondering when you were going to admit that. Yeah,

322
00:17:46,636 --> 00:17:48,956
Speaker 1: I guess I figured that was probably a relevant detailed

323
00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:52,596
Speaker 1: to mention. I have a question related to that to

324
00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:54,716
Speaker 1: that eye. And this is a question of sort of

325
00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:57,036
Speaker 1: asking you to tell us a little bit more about yourself,

326
00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:00,356
Speaker 1: but also you know through rere, like how much of

327
00:18:00,396 --> 00:18:05,076
Speaker 1: you is in re re? Yeah, great question. I would say,

328
00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:09,396
Speaker 1: there's a robust ven diagram. We are not the same person.

329
00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:11,796
Speaker 1: I think that some of the ways in which we

330
00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:14,956
Speaker 1: are very much the same. I have myself been a

331
00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:19,156
Speaker 1: black girl growing up in Chicago. I myself was raised

332
00:18:19,196 --> 00:18:22,756
Speaker 1: by a single mom, you know. I myself attended an

333
00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:27,036
Speaker 1: you know, an elite university in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You know.

334
00:18:27,436 --> 00:18:31,236
Speaker 1: And I think that the genius label is a lot

335
00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:34,556
Speaker 1: of my work as an edg scholar is, especially on

336
00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:37,196
Speaker 1: the book I'm trying to finish right now, is challenging

337
00:18:37,196 --> 00:18:41,076
Speaker 1: and troubling notions of what we think intelligence is and

338
00:18:41,556 --> 00:18:44,796
Speaker 1: ways in which the way notions of intelligence as they're

339
00:18:44,796 --> 00:18:49,596
Speaker 1: constructed in schools are very restrictive, very sometimes very racist,

340
00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:52,556
Speaker 1: very limiting. And then I was a middle school teacher, right,

341
00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:54,996
Speaker 1: And so being a teacher means that it's your job

342
00:18:55,076 --> 00:18:57,796
Speaker 1: to find the amazing things in all of your kids

343
00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:00,756
Speaker 1: and to recognize and celebrate the different ways that quote

344
00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:04,316
Speaker 1: unquote intelligence can look and can manifest. And my own

345
00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:07,756
Speaker 1: relationship to that comes as somebody who you know, was

346
00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:12,636
Speaker 1: tracked into high level classes in elementary school and you know,

347
00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:15,676
Speaker 1: went to a selective high school and things like that,

348
00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:20,316
Speaker 1: but always had a kind of complicated awareness of on

349
00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:23,836
Speaker 1: the one hand, receiving these labels of you know, you

350
00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:25,396
Speaker 1: get to be in this program, you get to have

351
00:19:25,396 --> 00:19:27,116
Speaker 1: this opportunity, you get to do this that, and the

352
00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:30,596
Speaker 1: other on the other hand, being very cynical at a

353
00:19:30,676 --> 00:19:32,956
Speaker 1: very young age about the ways that I saw those

354
00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:36,316
Speaker 1: labels as being socially constructed. If even if I didn't

355
00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:38,956
Speaker 1: have that, how did you have that awareness to feel

356
00:19:38,956 --> 00:19:40,916
Speaker 1: like that there's something off about all this, and not

357
00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:43,716
Speaker 1: just to sort of feel this sense of like it

358
00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:46,156
Speaker 1: was normal and like personal or just like pride in

359
00:19:46,196 --> 00:19:48,876
Speaker 1: yourself and not yeah, no, I really didn't. I think

360
00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:51,516
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things. M One is I

361
00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:54,916
Speaker 1: have a younger brother, and so I witnessed the way

362
00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:58,916
Speaker 1: that you know, my brother friends and classmates who were

363
00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:02,596
Speaker 1: boys or girls who you know, presented differently or acted

364
00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:05,396
Speaker 1: differently or you know, behave differently, the way that there's

365
00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:09,716
Speaker 1: like um performance of a certain form of intelligence ascribed

366
00:20:09,756 --> 00:20:13,956
Speaker 1: with moral value and goodness in ways that I was like, well,

367
00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:16,436
Speaker 1: I'm not a better person than those people. I'm not

368
00:20:16,476 --> 00:20:19,716
Speaker 1: a more valuable or more worthy person. So those kinds

369
00:20:19,716 --> 00:20:22,876
Speaker 1: of early schisms of just being like, yo, I think

370
00:20:22,916 --> 00:20:24,916
Speaker 1: some of this stuff is like kind of fake. So

371
00:20:24,956 --> 00:20:28,716
Speaker 1: these questions of deservingness of goodness, all that stuff was

372
00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:32,716
Speaker 1: very It made me very cynical about the labels like

373
00:20:32,876 --> 00:20:37,436
Speaker 1: gifted and talented very early. And so you know, it's fine,

374
00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:40,036
Speaker 1: like it's fiction, it's comics. We can call people geniuses.

375
00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:42,916
Speaker 1: Everything doesn't have to be a sociological thesis with it

376
00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:44,676
Speaker 1: kind of does, but but I at least try to

377
00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:47,756
Speaker 1: conceal it. And but you know, but at the very least,

378
00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:52,076
Speaker 1: like that doesn't solve her problems, right, And so so

379
00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:55,316
Speaker 1: how is she coping with the losses that she's experienced

380
00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:57,316
Speaker 1: in her life? What are the ways in which she

381
00:20:57,396 --> 00:20:59,756
Speaker 1: still has to grow as a as a young person,

382
00:20:59,876 --> 00:21:03,796
Speaker 1: as a friend, right as a daughter. And that's the

383
00:21:03,876 --> 00:21:05,756
Speaker 1: kind of that's the story that I that I wanted

384
00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,996
Speaker 1: to tell. We're going to talk some more to eat

385
00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:13,236
Speaker 1: about superheroes and representation after we come back from the break.

386
00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:26,996
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Hey, we are back on. Some

387
00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:33,076
Speaker 1: of my best friends are with Evel Ewing. You brought

388
00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:36,996
Speaker 1: up Miles Morales and into the Spider Verse earlier, and

389
00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:41,236
Speaker 1: it is my son, Jonah's, by far most favorite, not

390
00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:44,876
Speaker 1: even favorite movie. Comic is his favorite thing. And you know,

391
00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:48,516
Speaker 1: I asked him why, and you know, even before this conversation,

392
00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:50,476
Speaker 1: I asked him again and I could almost verbade him

393
00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:54,996
Speaker 1: tell you what he said. He said, Miles is after

394
00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:58,636
Speaker 1: a Latino. I'm African American. And we could put an

395
00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:01,236
Speaker 1: asterisk there and you know, a footnote for later. You

396
00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:03,836
Speaker 1: know when he says that, and he says, you know,

397
00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:07,356
Speaker 1: and both of us are these kids who went into

398
00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:10,876
Speaker 1: these sort of like high power nerdy schools and are

399
00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:14,116
Speaker 1: trying to navigate them. He's like, and then this is

400
00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,916
Speaker 1: a quote he said, we have the same origin story.

401
00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:21,196
Speaker 1: Oh really, which is a great way of also saying like,

402
00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:23,036
Speaker 1: you know, we all one of the reasons I think

403
00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:25,716
Speaker 1: we love seeing superheroes is because we all dream of

404
00:22:25,756 --> 00:22:28,196
Speaker 1: that that this thing will emerge in us that will

405
00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:32,516
Speaker 1: also differentiate us. Uh. Yes, and and you know I

406
00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:36,316
Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, it's beautiful. Um, you know, maybe you

407
00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:38,276
Speaker 1: know something I want to ask you, Like, you know,

408
00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:41,236
Speaker 1: you're you're so knowledge about all this and uh and

409
00:22:41,356 --> 00:22:43,356
Speaker 1: Khalil isn't, as he said, he has never even studied

410
00:22:43,356 --> 00:22:46,036
Speaker 1: any of this. Wait a minute, and I have other

411
00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:47,756
Speaker 1: kinds of knowledge, And I want to ask you about

412
00:22:47,796 --> 00:22:50,196
Speaker 1: this moment, like, you know, even Marvel reaching out to you, like,

413
00:22:50,276 --> 00:22:52,476
Speaker 1: what's what do you think is different about this moment

414
00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:55,676
Speaker 1: right now as far as representation, that's different than previous

415
00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:57,356
Speaker 1: ones when there were you know, there were black people

416
00:22:57,356 --> 00:23:00,116
Speaker 1: in comics before. There's obviously been women around, Like what's

417
00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:04,596
Speaker 1: different right now? Yeah, I really appreciate that question. I

418
00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:10,116
Speaker 1: think that really something that has been top of mind

419
00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:16,636
Speaker 1: for me recently is looking back to Tanahassee's Tanahassee Coats's

420
00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:22,236
Speaker 1: run on Black Panther in twenty sixteen. Actually, even though

421
00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,836
Speaker 1: it gets a lot less attention, mainstream media attention, I

422
00:23:24,836 --> 00:23:28,036
Speaker 1: think in some ways it's more important or more stunning

423
00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:31,316
Speaker 1: that he then had to run on Captain America. And

424
00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:33,516
Speaker 1: you know, what does it mean for the United States

425
00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,956
Speaker 1: one of its leading black public intellectuals who is known

426
00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:40,996
Speaker 1: for what at the time, for many people are very

427
00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:44,876
Speaker 1: incendiary arguments about things like reparations and America as a cleptocracy.

428
00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:47,196
Speaker 1: The you know, person who has said America is a

429
00:23:47,236 --> 00:23:49,756
Speaker 1: cleptocracy to be the person who's like, I'm now going

430
00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:54,116
Speaker 1: to write the story of Captain America, right, And I

431
00:23:54,156 --> 00:23:57,436
Speaker 1: think that that was a really important historic moment that

432
00:23:57,596 --> 00:24:03,076
Speaker 1: opened up a lot of space for writers of color

433
00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:08,636
Speaker 1: who perhaps did not have the kind of coming up

434
00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:14,436
Speaker 1: through the ranks um pathway into comics because it is

435
00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:17,876
Speaker 1: not a medium that has felt welcoming to people and

436
00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:21,196
Speaker 1: who have shown their metal in other arenas and other

437
00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:25,236
Speaker 1: genres to be able to come into writing. Um, you know,

438
00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:27,876
Speaker 1: folks like Saladi Nahmed, who who'd you know been a

439
00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:32,436
Speaker 1: fiction writer and Greg pak who is an amazing comics

440
00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:35,356
Speaker 1: writer now, but starts as a filmmaker, uh, you know

441
00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:39,236
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay, who was certainly the most high profile black

442
00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:43,036
Speaker 1: woman to kind of you know crossover um. And I

443
00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:45,756
Speaker 1: think that took some imagination on the on the part

444
00:24:45,796 --> 00:24:48,596
Speaker 1: of editors to say, like, well, you know, maybe this

445
00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:50,396
Speaker 1: person who's good at this thing could be good at

446
00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:52,436
Speaker 1: this other thing. So I'm starting to be in a

447
00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:56,076
Speaker 1: position now where I'm trying to be imaginative about what

448
00:24:56,116 --> 00:25:00,956
Speaker 1: the next step is. And as a poet, um, you know,

449
00:25:01,236 --> 00:25:03,276
Speaker 1: that's my first published book as a book of poetry,

450
00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:06,276
Speaker 1: and in many ways I came of age as a writer.

451
00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:09,716
Speaker 1: As a poet. My milia and my social learning space

452
00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:12,356
Speaker 1: is very much cultivated by poetry, and that has always

453
00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:17,396
Speaker 1: been shaped by the legacy of Gwendolen Brooks. And what

454
00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:20,236
Speaker 1: what Gwendolen Brooks teaches us is that it's not enough

455
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,476
Speaker 1: for you to just be, you know, to sit in

456
00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:27,516
Speaker 1: your little like writing hobbit hole and like write the

457
00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:31,596
Speaker 1: great American poem. But that actually, you know, for Gwendolen Brooks,

458
00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:35,156
Speaker 1: being a poet meant sponsoring young people's poetry contest. Being

459
00:25:35,156 --> 00:25:38,596
Speaker 1: a poet meant uh, you know, being in regular correspondence

460
00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:41,196
Speaker 1: with people who were inspired, you know, by her being

461
00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:43,996
Speaker 1: a poet meant teaching free workshops. And so my work

462
00:25:43,996 --> 00:25:47,196
Speaker 1: as a poet has always been very much inflected with

463
00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:50,556
Speaker 1: cultural organizing. And I'm trying to think now about what

464
00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:54,116
Speaker 1: my role is in terms of opening up the space

465
00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 1: for other people. And you know, I just did a

466
00:25:57,636 --> 00:26:01,396
Speaker 1: signing comic book signing this past weekend at on the

467
00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:03,796
Speaker 1: South Side on fifty third Street. We were scheduled for

468
00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:06,036
Speaker 1: two hours. I went to almost three and we had

469
00:26:06,076 --> 00:26:10,476
Speaker 1: to cut the line off and it was amazing. But

470
00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:15,796
Speaker 1: what I love about those signings is how many little

471
00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:20,076
Speaker 1: black girls, girls in general, kids in general, kids of

472
00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:22,756
Speaker 1: color in general, like, you know, all these different identities

473
00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:25,476
Speaker 1: of young people, they come to get these signings. Sometimes

474
00:26:25,476 --> 00:26:27,956
Speaker 1: they take a picture with me, and I love I

475
00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:31,956
Speaker 1: just wanted to be completely mundane for them. I'm the

476
00:26:32,036 --> 00:26:36,236
Speaker 1: fifth black woman ever to write Marvel comics, and you know,

477
00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:38,716
Speaker 1: all five of us are like the first five are

478
00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:40,996
Speaker 1: all like in you know, a stone's throw of each

479
00:26:41,036 --> 00:26:42,996
Speaker 1: other in terms of timing, right, It's not like the

480
00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:45,516
Speaker 1: first one was in like nineteen, you know, seventy years something.

481
00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,036
Speaker 1: And so I want them to feel like this is

482
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:55,996
Speaker 1: as mundane and possible and doable and easy and seeable

483
00:26:56,596 --> 00:27:00,476
Speaker 1: a path as like, you know, being a dentist or something.

484
00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:04,396
Speaker 1: Can I share with you something that connects totally with

485
00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:07,796
Speaker 1: what you're describing. So I don't know if you I

486
00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:11,516
Speaker 1: can't imagine you have had this experience yet. But when

487
00:27:11,556 --> 00:27:15,516
Speaker 1: I started at the Schomberg back in twenty eleven, one

488
00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:17,636
Speaker 1: of the people worked for me was the director of education,

489
00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:20,916
Speaker 1: woman named Deirdre Holman, And and Deirdre came up with

490
00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,916
Speaker 1: this brilliant idea. She said, look, I know this guy

491
00:27:23,956 --> 00:27:27,396
Speaker 1: named Jerry Kraft who is an illustrator, and this guy

492
00:27:27,476 --> 00:27:31,796
Speaker 1: Jonathan Gayles, who is a scholar of black representation in

493
00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 1: comic books. And they've come to me and I say, Hey,

494
00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:38,316
Speaker 1: Schamberg should be host to a black comic con. And

495
00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:41,076
Speaker 1: I'm like, what a brilliant idea. And it just so

496
00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:44,836
Speaker 1: happens that this January, starting the end of this week,

497
00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:49,556
Speaker 1: is the tenth anniversary of the Schaumberg's Black Comic Con.

498
00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,756
Speaker 1: Have you ever did you ever participate in it? Oh?

499
00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:56,356
Speaker 1: My god, Khalil, Yeah, So I that's very emotional for

500
00:27:56,436 --> 00:28:00,396
Speaker 1: me because the first time I went was as a fan,

501
00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:03,596
Speaker 1: and I went to the first Black Comics fast of

502
00:28:03,716 --> 00:28:05,876
Speaker 1: being at the Schomberg Center. Yeah, being at the Center,

503
00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:08,996
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And I remember going to that and I

504
00:28:09,596 --> 00:28:12,116
Speaker 1: there was a there was a panel about black women

505
00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 1: in comics, and I just was sitting there with my

506
00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,836
Speaker 1: jaw just on the floor. And that panel was so

507
00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:20,916
Speaker 1: important to me because, you know, prior to that, I

508
00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:23,316
Speaker 1: had been to, you know, in independent I had just

509
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:26,476
Speaker 1: gone to another independent comics festival a few months prior

510
00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:29,516
Speaker 1: to that, and I remember that one being you know,

511
00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:33,236
Speaker 1: all white people with a few a few people of

512
00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:36,236
Speaker 1: color kind of scattered throughout at that particular festival. And

513
00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:39,236
Speaker 1: then I went to the Schaumberg Festival and it's like

514
00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,116
Speaker 1: all black dudes, that's right, And so you know, it's

515
00:28:43,116 --> 00:28:45,876
Speaker 1: like the panel, the Black women in Comics panel is

516
00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:48,556
Speaker 1: kind of the only you know, it's like whoever's interested

517
00:28:48,636 --> 00:28:50,916
Speaker 1: is going to show up for that. I actually remember

518
00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:53,716
Speaker 1: that panel, go ahead, yeah, I mean it was, it was.

519
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:57,356
Speaker 1: It was a really important moment for me. And uh.

520
00:28:57,356 --> 00:29:02,076
Speaker 1: And then I went and was on a panel um

521
00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:05,156
Speaker 1: in January twenty twenty, and it was one of the

522
00:29:05,236 --> 00:29:08,796
Speaker 1: last things I did before COVID shut down. And I

523
00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:13,596
Speaker 1: remember Vita Ayala, who's an amazing non binary after latine

524
00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:16,636
Speaker 1: UH comics writer, was also on the panel and and

525
00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 1: it was really powerful. And there's a today, So there's

526
00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:24,956
Speaker 1: in the Schoenberg, there's a there's a exhibition about black comics.

527
00:29:25,276 --> 00:29:27,956
Speaker 1: And there's a picture of me on that panel and

528
00:29:28,636 --> 00:29:31,676
Speaker 1: for me, yes, and it's a quote from me on

529
00:29:31,716 --> 00:29:35,796
Speaker 1: the wall, uh which this morning, as I was walking

530
00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:37,756
Speaker 1: my dog, a friend of mine was like, Yo, I'm

531
00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:40,156
Speaker 1: at the Schoenberg. They got you on the wall, you know,

532
00:29:40,836 --> 00:29:46,156
Speaker 1: and I've a arrived and and it's just it's really special.

533
00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:49,756
Speaker 1: But I think like continuing to build those spaces is

534
00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:52,916
Speaker 1: really important because and one of the things that that

535
00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:56,036
Speaker 1: festival does is is bringing lots and lots of young people.

536
00:29:56,196 --> 00:29:58,356
Speaker 1: You know. I don't know if y'all remember this, but

537
00:29:58,436 --> 00:30:02,236
Speaker 1: like for me, my parents' generation, you know, they talk about, um,

538
00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:04,836
Speaker 1: you know, when a black person, we might be your

539
00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:09,036
Speaker 1: parents generation not quite not quite nice try the nice try.

540
00:30:10,556 --> 00:30:13,596
Speaker 1: You know. My parents' generation always talks about when a

541
00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:15,476
Speaker 1: black person came on like the new like a black

542
00:30:15,476 --> 00:30:17,556
Speaker 1: news anchor came on, or black person came on TV.

543
00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:19,516
Speaker 1: Everybody would run in the room right, because it was

544
00:30:19,516 --> 00:30:21,636
Speaker 1: like a huge deal and then by time, you know,

545
00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:23,556
Speaker 1: I was a kid who's like, yeah, Robin Robinson's on

546
00:30:23,596 --> 00:30:25,876
Speaker 1: TV every night, Like it's I'm happy for her, But

547
00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:28,116
Speaker 1: like this is a mundane this is not a nothing

548
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:31,076
Speaker 1: to write home about. So like what I want is

549
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:33,596
Speaker 1: for you know, kids who grow up and who get

550
00:30:33,636 --> 00:30:35,596
Speaker 1: to read these comics that I'm writing or meet me

551
00:30:35,596 --> 00:30:38,276
Speaker 1: out of signing. I want them to be like equally unimpressed,

552
00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:41,036
Speaker 1: you know, and I want them to be focused on like,

553
00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:44,796
Speaker 1: all right, well, how many how where's the queer representation,

554
00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:48,916
Speaker 1: Where's the disabled representation? Where's the undocumented representation? Black characters

555
00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 1: have been in comics for a minute, That's not enough, right,

556
00:30:51,676 --> 00:30:54,876
Speaker 1: And so I want, you know, I want the trans

557
00:30:54,956 --> 00:30:59,076
Speaker 1: Muslim disabled author writing the trans Muslim disabled heroes, you know.

558
00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:02,796
Speaker 1: And not simply because we always have to have this

559
00:31:02,876 --> 00:31:06,516
Speaker 1: like one to one, very limited reductive notion of what

560
00:31:06,556 --> 00:31:10,116
Speaker 1: representation means, but because the more people we have at

561
00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:13,276
Speaker 1: the table, the more we can actually do what comics

562
00:31:13,316 --> 00:31:16,076
Speaker 1: and what Marvel Comics in particular has always promised and

563
00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:17,996
Speaker 1: supposedly said it was going to do, which is show

564
00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:20,996
Speaker 1: you the world outside your window. You know, yes, and

565
00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:24,676
Speaker 1: so yeah, I just think everybody, everybody should everybody jump

566
00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:27,956
Speaker 1: in the pool. That's how I feel. So speaking of

567
00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 1: everyone jumping in the pool, we have seen an explosion

568
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,396
Speaker 1: of diversity, and you've already talked about Miss Marvel, We've

569
00:31:33,396 --> 00:31:36,956
Speaker 1: talked about the new Black Captain America. But there's been

570
00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:42,836
Speaker 1: tremendous backlash. And you know, you've talked about precisely how

571
00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:47,276
Speaker 1: getting into comic books unleash some of the worst hatred

572
00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:51,556
Speaker 1: that you've experienced personally. But we also know that the

573
00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:54,956
Speaker 1: black girl who's going to play Arial in the upcoming

574
00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:58,676
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid has been subject to all this total insanity

575
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:02,236
Speaker 1: and racism. There's a quote from The Washington Post that

576
00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:05,476
Speaker 1: the trailer sparked anger and dismay among fans who felt

577
00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:07,276
Speaker 1: that Ariel was written to be a white character, and

578
00:32:07,316 --> 00:32:10,236
Speaker 1: these critics saw it Bailey's asking was nothing more than

579
00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:13,276
Speaker 1: wokeness gone awry. I mean, so talk to us a

580
00:32:13,276 --> 00:32:17,836
Speaker 1: little bit about the relationship of this work and what

581
00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:21,436
Speaker 1: we're seeing happen with people who are pushing back. Yeah,

582
00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 1: you know, I think that in a way, there is

583
00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:29,836
Speaker 1: actually an interesting analog. So, you know, I'm teaching this

584
00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:35,396
Speaker 1: quarter and prepping to lecture tomorrow about critical race theory,

585
00:32:35,956 --> 00:32:39,516
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, for the type of

586
00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:43,556
Speaker 1: scholarly work that we do, there's an interesting analog here

587
00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:48,636
Speaker 1: in terms of how you strike the balance between I

588
00:32:48,676 --> 00:32:52,596
Speaker 1: think a number of sometimes competing needs that are all urgent.

589
00:32:53,156 --> 00:32:58,396
Speaker 1: So one of them is recognizing the viciousness of the

590
00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:01,636
Speaker 1: backlash but not only responding to it in a kind

591
00:33:01,676 --> 00:33:04,156
Speaker 1: of sensationalized way, which I think is what a lot

592
00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:08,516
Speaker 1: of mainstream media does, and instead taking a deeper look

593
00:33:08,516 --> 00:33:12,076
Speaker 1: at what is beneath it, right, And that's where we

594
00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:15,556
Speaker 1: dig into our critical race theory to help us understand,

595
00:33:15,916 --> 00:33:19,516
Speaker 1: you know, when somebody gets really mad about a fictional

596
00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:22,956
Speaker 1: character like Ariel, you know, being portrayed by Hallie Bailey.

597
00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:26,396
Speaker 1: I think about when I first started writing Ironheart. The

598
00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:29,316
Speaker 1: joke I always made was like, you know, at the time,

599
00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:31,116
Speaker 1: I was using Twitter a lot, and I was using

600
00:33:31,116 --> 00:33:34,076
Speaker 1: Twitter a lot to critique police and prisons and the

601
00:33:34,156 --> 00:33:36,316
Speaker 1: mayor at the time and all these like, you know,

602
00:33:36,436 --> 00:33:39,036
Speaker 1: pretty weighty political topics. And I always thought, like, so

603
00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:41,036
Speaker 1: I can go on Twitter every day and say abolish

604
00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:44,156
Speaker 1: the police. But and that's all fine, right, But if

605
00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:46,316
Speaker 1: I say, if I'm writing a fictional story about a

606
00:33:46,316 --> 00:33:48,516
Speaker 1: black girl who flies around and shoots laser beams out

607
00:33:48,516 --> 00:33:50,516
Speaker 1: of her hands. That that's like a problem, Like what

608
00:33:50,676 --> 00:33:54,196
Speaker 1: is that about, you know? And it's about young people,

609
00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:56,316
Speaker 1: right at the end of the day. That's part of it.

610
00:33:56,516 --> 00:33:59,076
Speaker 1: That's part of it. And I think that I think

611
00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:02,316
Speaker 1: for me, one of the challenges with the comics stuff

612
00:34:02,556 --> 00:34:05,396
Speaker 1: and the world of sci fi and star wars and

613
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:08,596
Speaker 1: specular fiction and all this being grounds for these kinds

614
00:34:08,596 --> 00:34:11,916
Speaker 1: of reactionary takes is that it's really easy for people

615
00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:14,196
Speaker 1: who love you, who are outside of these industries to

616
00:34:14,316 --> 00:34:18,116
Speaker 1: say well meaning but ultimately unhelpful things like, well, that's

617
00:34:18,156 --> 00:34:20,676
Speaker 1: just a bunch of losers in abasement. They suck, they

618
00:34:20,676 --> 00:34:23,676
Speaker 1: couldn't even blah blah blah, and that stuff all might

619
00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:26,716
Speaker 1: be true, but like they're just losers in abasement until

620
00:34:27,636 --> 00:34:31,356
Speaker 1: they show up with a gun, right, And it takes

621
00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:34,236
Speaker 1: a toll. It's taxing, right that this this kind of language,

622
00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:36,356
Speaker 1: in this kind of experience is taxing. So I think

623
00:34:36,396 --> 00:34:38,076
Speaker 1: one of the things that's really important for us to

624
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:41,436
Speaker 1: do is to step up and support and defend and

625
00:34:41,476 --> 00:34:45,876
Speaker 1: celebrate the folks who, you know, have received these kinds

626
00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:48,716
Speaker 1: of vicious attacks that these major media companies have had

627
00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:52,556
Speaker 1: a really mixed back in defending defending people and having

628
00:34:52,596 --> 00:34:54,716
Speaker 1: their back. But I think the third thing is like,

629
00:34:55,396 --> 00:34:57,356
Speaker 1: you know, man, I gotta tell these stories, like I

630
00:34:57,396 --> 00:35:00,396
Speaker 1: got to write these books. I really strike a balance

631
00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:04,276
Speaker 1: between trying to be aware and be realistic and be

632
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:07,476
Speaker 1: safe about the folks that are out there that do

633
00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:10,276
Speaker 1: not support this type of work. It is very important

634
00:35:10,276 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 1: that I give them a mere infinitesimal fraction of the

635
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:17,996
Speaker 1: attention that I give writing good stories, you know, for

636
00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:20,636
Speaker 1: Ben's kids to be like this, This made me feel seen.

637
00:35:20,716 --> 00:35:23,636
Speaker 1: This is my origin story. And I think that one

638
00:35:23,716 --> 00:35:25,836
Speaker 1: thing that my friends and I and these industries talk

639
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,796
Speaker 1: to each other about all the time and is that

640
00:35:29,156 --> 00:35:32,556
Speaker 1: the internet is a vile place. And when I go

641
00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:35,676
Speaker 1: to cons, when I do signings, when I do these events,

642
00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:38,836
Speaker 1: the kid who comes up to me and hands me,

643
00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:41,876
Speaker 1: they're like kind of crumply comic book, you know, standing

644
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:45,796
Speaker 1: there in their Black Panther costume or their Miss Marvel costume,

645
00:35:46,276 --> 00:35:48,076
Speaker 1: and you know asks if they can sit on the

646
00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:50,756
Speaker 1: table and take a picture with me. It is so

647
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:55,116
Speaker 1: important that that person takes up tends you know, manifold

648
00:35:55,196 --> 00:36:00,196
Speaker 1: more time in my head. And because the moment I

649
00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:03,476
Speaker 1: stop writing for them and start writing for those other people,

650
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:06,316
Speaker 1: what am I actually doing with the limited days I

651
00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:08,476
Speaker 1: have on this planet? It's just a waste. And the

652
00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:11,356
Speaker 1: other thing is that, you know, I'm going to quote

653
00:36:11,396 --> 00:36:14,116
Speaker 1: something that Tanahassi said earlier to me many years ago,

654
00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 1: when when I said earlier that, like, I used to ask, like, well,

655
00:36:16,916 --> 00:36:19,076
Speaker 1: why is this the thing that pisses people off so much?

656
00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:22,876
Speaker 1: And he said, well, it's because they're right, They're right

657
00:36:22,956 --> 00:36:26,956
Speaker 1: that this actually is threatening. It matters, right, like it

658
00:36:26,996 --> 00:36:30,796
Speaker 1: actually really does matter. Comics as a medium were invented

659
00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:33,236
Speaker 1: in the United States, right, certainly a pastiche of many

660
00:36:33,236 --> 00:36:35,916
Speaker 1: things that had existed before, but invented in the United

661
00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:40,716
Speaker 1: States context by and large by Eastern European Jewish immigrants

662
00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:43,836
Speaker 1: and children of immigrants, right living in New York City.

663
00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:48,116
Speaker 1: This history has always been about you know, subjugated people

664
00:36:48,436 --> 00:36:51,556
Speaker 1: trying to tell these outlandish stories about what could be possible.

665
00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 1: And that is scary, That is countercultural, and I believe

666
00:36:56,516 --> 00:36:59,556
Speaker 1: it remains countercultural even as these movies you know, take

667
00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:01,916
Speaker 1: over the global box office and this and that. That's

668
00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:03,596
Speaker 1: kind of the kernel that I'm that I'm trying to

669
00:37:03,636 --> 00:37:07,156
Speaker 1: hang onto. Well, you love amazing, Amazing. We are going

670
00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:10,316
Speaker 1: to take one more break. We were talking with Eve Ewing.

671
00:37:10,356 --> 00:37:14,276
Speaker 1: We're talking about comics and superheroes and really everything else

672
00:37:14,316 --> 00:37:18,556
Speaker 1: at this genre. This form tells about us and I

673
00:37:18,556 --> 00:37:21,116
Speaker 1: guess you could say our alter egos. We'll be right

674
00:37:21,156 --> 00:37:33,436
Speaker 1: back after the break. We are back on. Some of

675
00:37:33,436 --> 00:37:35,796
Speaker 1: my best friends are with the amazing Eve, you and

676
00:37:35,916 --> 00:37:39,876
Speaker 1: Holy cow Eve. There's something that's been coming up throughout

677
00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:43,036
Speaker 1: this conversation, and actually, as I think about all of

678
00:37:43,076 --> 00:37:46,956
Speaker 1: your work, there's this incredible focus on young people. And

679
00:37:47,356 --> 00:37:50,476
Speaker 1: even the moment that I played the clip of my daughter,

680
00:37:50,556 --> 00:37:52,596
Speaker 1: or when I mentioned my son, you lit up in

681
00:37:52,636 --> 00:37:54,756
Speaker 1: a way which is like almost like nothing else. And

682
00:37:54,796 --> 00:37:56,836
Speaker 1: I remember once we we met in a coffee shop

683
00:37:56,836 --> 00:37:58,996
Speaker 1: and my son was there, and the way you talk

684
00:37:59,076 --> 00:38:02,236
Speaker 1: to him about his bay blades, like like which these

685
00:38:02,276 --> 00:38:05,076
Speaker 1: toys he had. You are so connected to young people,

686
00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:07,156
Speaker 1: and it's so much a part of everything you do.

687
00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:10,596
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of wild. Yeah, I mean, thank

688
00:38:10,636 --> 00:38:15,276
Speaker 1: you for seeing that. You know, as a writer, I

689
00:38:15,316 --> 00:38:19,316
Speaker 1: believe that young people are very important in making literary canons.

690
00:38:19,596 --> 00:38:23,356
Speaker 1: And I believe that oftentimes people who see themselves as

691
00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:26,516
Speaker 1: serious writers don't take young readers seriously. Yeah, And I

692
00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:29,556
Speaker 1: think I don't know why other people don't take young

693
00:38:29,596 --> 00:38:33,436
Speaker 1: people seriously. To be honest with you, I was. I

694
00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:35,596
Speaker 1: was joking with a friend of mine, a friend Kaba Akbar,

695
00:38:35,636 --> 00:38:39,156
Speaker 1: who's a poet an also huge Simpsons fan, and he

696
00:38:39,236 --> 00:38:43,756
Speaker 1: sent me this meme yesterday of Principal Skinner on The Simpsons,

697
00:38:43,756 --> 00:38:47,276
Speaker 1: And in this meme, he's like, am I out of touch? No?

698
00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 1: It is the children. It's the children who are wrong,

699
00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:53,156
Speaker 1: you know. And it's such a funny joke. But it's like,

700
00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:54,876
Speaker 1: I don't know about y'all, but when I was a kid,

701
00:38:55,036 --> 00:38:58,076
Speaker 1: I looked around at adults all the time, and I

702
00:38:58,156 --> 00:39:01,796
Speaker 1: was so aware of this obvious logical fallacy, which was

703
00:39:01,836 --> 00:39:06,116
Speaker 1: like you were like me once, right, you were like

704
00:39:06,316 --> 00:39:09,356
Speaker 1: me once, which is something you can't really say about

705
00:39:09,396 --> 00:39:11,996
Speaker 1: most social identities. But it's like everybody was a kid,

706
00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:14,676
Speaker 1: and that I just used to stand around looking at adults,

707
00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:17,956
Speaker 1: just pondering that fact, like every single one of you

708
00:39:18,876 --> 00:39:23,036
Speaker 1: was my age. Yeah, we're all every age we were before, right, right,

709
00:39:23,076 --> 00:39:25,516
Speaker 1: Like sandrasis Narrows teaches us, right, when you're eleven, you're

710
00:39:25,516 --> 00:39:27,316
Speaker 1: also ten and nine and eight and seven, right, And

711
00:39:27,356 --> 00:39:32,516
Speaker 1: so so I didn't understand then why it was that

712
00:39:32,596 --> 00:39:37,236
Speaker 1: adults seemed to have so little regard for the inner

713
00:39:37,356 --> 00:39:41,636
Speaker 1: life of kids. And I remember feeling that way as

714
00:39:41,676 --> 00:39:47,036
Speaker 1: a kid and taking myself so seriously. I took myself

715
00:39:47,076 --> 00:39:50,156
Speaker 1: so seriously as a reader and as a thinker, and

716
00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:53,836
Speaker 1: had a lot of confidence in myself that the things

717
00:39:53,836 --> 00:39:55,596
Speaker 1: that I had to say and the things that people

718
00:39:55,596 --> 00:39:59,476
Speaker 1: around me felt and thought were important. And I didn't

719
00:39:59,556 --> 00:40:02,276
Speaker 1: understand why adults didn't feel that way. And so I

720
00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:04,796
Speaker 1: think I kind of made a pact with myself that

721
00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:07,836
Speaker 1: I just never I just never wanted to be that person.

722
00:40:08,196 --> 00:40:10,356
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that I haven't failed at times.

723
00:40:10,396 --> 00:40:12,076
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there are things that I did as

724
00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:14,236
Speaker 1: a CPS teacher that I look back at, you know,

725
00:40:14,396 --> 00:40:18,916
Speaker 1: moments of being public schools uh not not a Child

726
00:40:18,916 --> 00:40:23,036
Speaker 1: Protective Services CHOB schools teacher, um, and ways in which

727
00:40:23,076 --> 00:40:25,556
Speaker 1: as a teacher you get co opted into certain ways

728
00:40:25,596 --> 00:40:28,116
Speaker 1: of treating kids or acting, you know. So, so it's

729
00:40:28,116 --> 00:40:30,116
Speaker 1: not like I've always been perfect or that I'm never

730
00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:32,476
Speaker 1: messed up, but I just I just really tried to

731
00:40:32,556 --> 00:40:35,276
Speaker 1: keep that promise to myself. Um. And then I think

732
00:40:35,276 --> 00:40:38,316
Speaker 1: on a more utilitarian level as a writer, I think

733
00:40:38,356 --> 00:40:43,116
Speaker 1: that if you look around like young people reading in school,

734
00:40:43,556 --> 00:40:46,836
Speaker 1: for many folks, that is the most robust and consistent

735
00:40:47,036 --> 00:40:50,596
Speaker 1: reading life that they'll ever have. Um. Right, like the

736
00:40:50,636 --> 00:40:53,556
Speaker 1: frequency with which you read, having time in the day

737
00:40:53,756 --> 00:40:56,396
Speaker 1: you're marked to read and to talk to other people

738
00:40:56,436 --> 00:40:59,596
Speaker 1: about what you're reading. Right, Like most people don't have

739
00:40:59,636 --> 00:41:02,596
Speaker 1: that past high school. You come of age, you begin

740
00:41:02,676 --> 00:41:04,796
Speaker 1: to be the person that you are in your engagement

741
00:41:04,796 --> 00:41:08,276
Speaker 1: with literature. I believe when when you're young, and you know,

742
00:41:08,396 --> 00:41:10,116
Speaker 1: many of us, I don't know about y'all, but I

743
00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:14,316
Speaker 1: feel like I'm always chasing that like under the cover's feeling,

744
00:41:14,476 --> 00:41:16,236
Speaker 1: you know, like the feeling you have when you're a

745
00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:18,516
Speaker 1: kid reading a really great book, and you know. I

746
00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:21,996
Speaker 1: remember when I was in seventh grade, my my aunt's

747
00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:26,836
Speaker 1: boyfriend gave me a doggeared copy of Flowers for Algernon okay, um,

748
00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:28,796
Speaker 1: and he was like, I think you'll really like this.

749
00:41:28,836 --> 00:41:31,156
Speaker 1: And I remember reading it on this like sixteen hour

750
00:41:31,276 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 1: road trip and I finished it and I just was

751
00:41:34,316 --> 00:41:36,636
Speaker 1: just weeping alone in the back of the car and

752
00:41:36,676 --> 00:41:39,596
Speaker 1: didn't couldn't even say anything to anybody, you know, And

753
00:41:39,596 --> 00:41:41,916
Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm always chasing that, like I'm always

754
00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:44,036
Speaker 1: trying to reclaim that as a person who reads and

755
00:41:44,076 --> 00:41:46,636
Speaker 1: writes for a living now. And so I just think

756
00:41:46,836 --> 00:41:49,556
Speaker 1: that is when we become, in many ways who we are.

757
00:41:49,996 --> 00:41:52,276
Speaker 1: And that's not everybody. People have many different journeys, but

758
00:41:52,276 --> 00:41:56,356
Speaker 1: I think that's some people. Yeah, and that's fine too,

759
00:41:56,636 --> 00:41:59,076
Speaker 1: you know, but even for those even for those kids,

760
00:41:59,076 --> 00:42:01,716
Speaker 1: I think I think many people who aren't bookish kids,

761
00:42:02,236 --> 00:42:05,476
Speaker 1: there's something about storytelling that probably engaged you as a

762
00:42:05,476 --> 00:42:08,076
Speaker 1: young person, right, And that could be like a person

763
00:42:08,116 --> 00:42:10,596
Speaker 1: in your family that told really great stories. That could

764
00:42:10,636 --> 00:42:12,756
Speaker 1: be a movie you really loved and watched over and

765
00:42:12,756 --> 00:42:14,476
Speaker 1: over and over and over and over. You know, you

766
00:42:14,476 --> 00:42:17,076
Speaker 1: talk about Spider Verse. You know. A friend of mine

767
00:42:17,116 --> 00:42:18,836
Speaker 1: just sent me a video of her son. He's two

768
00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:21,716
Speaker 1: years old, and it's him reciting one of the opening

769
00:42:21,756 --> 00:42:24,996
Speaker 1: monologues from from into the Spider Verse, you know, from MEMBERY.

770
00:42:24,996 --> 00:42:27,316
Speaker 1: He's like, Okay, let's try this one last time. My

771
00:42:27,396 --> 00:42:30,556
Speaker 1: name is Peter Parker. You know, he's too right, That's

772
00:42:30,556 --> 00:42:32,876
Speaker 1: that's one of his earliest texts that he's making a

773
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:36,036
Speaker 1: relationship with so I just think, um yeah, I just

774
00:42:36,076 --> 00:42:39,956
Speaker 1: think as a writer, I try to everything that I've

775
00:42:39,956 --> 00:42:42,076
Speaker 1: written so far, and I can't make this promise into

776
00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:44,676
Speaker 1: the future, but everything I've written so far, I've tried

777
00:42:44,716 --> 00:42:47,876
Speaker 1: to imagine that a young person of some age could

778
00:42:47,876 --> 00:42:51,236
Speaker 1: read and enjoy. I feel very affirmed by what you said, Ben,

779
00:42:51,316 --> 00:42:54,876
Speaker 1: because I just want to be a person who takes

780
00:42:55,156 --> 00:42:58,796
Speaker 1: young people seriously, and I have to. I'd be really

781
00:42:58,836 --> 00:43:01,476
Speaker 1: remiss and probably in big trouble in case you ever

782
00:43:01,556 --> 00:43:03,396
Speaker 1: hears this if I didn't give a shout out to

783
00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:06,076
Speaker 1: my mom, because when I was a kid, my mom

784
00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:09,356
Speaker 1: always said children are to be seen and listen to. Um,

785
00:43:09,596 --> 00:43:11,916
Speaker 1: oh that's great, said that all the time. Yeah, and

786
00:43:12,276 --> 00:43:14,276
Speaker 1: then she would always be like, you know, I would

787
00:43:14,316 --> 00:43:15,916
Speaker 1: get an arguments a mom, and she'd be like, it's

788
00:43:15,956 --> 00:43:18,636
Speaker 1: so annoying how I raised you to express your opinion.

789
00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:21,396
Speaker 1: Because I really don't want to have this argument with

790
00:43:21,436 --> 00:43:23,596
Speaker 1: you right now. But like, but I but it's my

791
00:43:23,676 --> 00:43:26,556
Speaker 1: own fault, Like I'm being punished for encouraging you to

792
00:43:26,676 --> 00:43:29,556
Speaker 1: to speak up all the time. Yeah. I just want

793
00:43:29,596 --> 00:43:34,036
Speaker 1: to say this has been really wonderful. Keep doing what

794
00:43:34,116 --> 00:43:36,716
Speaker 1: you're doing. Thank you. That's a that's a Black proverb.

795
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:40,476
Speaker 1: Keep doing what you're doing. We are we are grateful

796
00:43:40,516 --> 00:43:43,076
Speaker 1: for your contributions. I have to say I wore this

797
00:43:43,156 --> 00:43:48,236
Speaker 1: T shirt just for you today. Black scholars Matter. Thank you.

798
00:43:48,316 --> 00:43:51,196
Speaker 1: I appreciate that's right, but you are way more than

799
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:54,836
Speaker 1: that and just excited to see what is in the

800
00:43:54,876 --> 00:43:58,436
Speaker 1: future for you. And I'm going to keep reading Ironheart.

801
00:43:58,516 --> 00:44:00,596
Speaker 1: You can count on it. Thank you, and Khalil, I

802
00:44:00,636 --> 00:44:02,556
Speaker 1: meant it when I said, you know, for me, when

803
00:44:02,596 --> 00:44:04,716
Speaker 1: people say this is the first comic book I've ever read,

804
00:44:05,076 --> 00:44:07,676
Speaker 1: that's a huge compliment because I do want this to

805
00:44:07,756 --> 00:44:10,836
Speaker 1: feel like a welcoming space that hasn't always been welcoming

806
00:44:10,836 --> 00:44:12,716
Speaker 1: to lots of people, So that means a lot to me,

807
00:44:12,756 --> 00:44:15,796
Speaker 1: and I appreciate you giving it a shot. Awesome. Thanks

808
00:44:15,996 --> 00:44:19,196
Speaker 1: than thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much. Thanks Kalil,

809
00:44:28,476 --> 00:44:31,836
Speaker 1: So Khalil, Uh huh what's the superpower that you would want?

810
00:44:35,876 --> 00:44:39,676
Speaker 1: Oh man, put me on the spot. Come on, I

811
00:44:39,796 --> 00:44:42,236
Speaker 1: kind of think, I don't know, this seems so lame,

812
00:44:43,236 --> 00:44:48,996
Speaker 1: but reading people's minds, m you don't already have that power.

813
00:44:49,396 --> 00:44:52,436
Speaker 1: You seem so discerning. I'm pretty good at it, but man,

814
00:44:52,516 --> 00:44:57,196
Speaker 1: it'd be it'd be wonderful to know. I'm right. Interesting, Interesting,

815
00:44:57,316 --> 00:45:01,356
Speaker 1: you're a snoop. You're a snoop. So I think teleportation

816
00:45:01,396 --> 00:45:03,556
Speaker 1: would be cool, you know, just to get somewhere really fast.

817
00:45:03,596 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 1: But then listening to Eve talk about having a long

818
00:45:06,476 --> 00:45:08,676
Speaker 1: trip and reading an entire book, I kind of like that.

819
00:45:09,116 --> 00:45:12,036
Speaker 1: I've been thinking after speaking with Eve about what her

820
00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:15,116
Speaker 1: superpower is. And I know, I know she's like, I'm

821
00:45:15,116 --> 00:45:17,996
Speaker 1: just an ordinary, you know, citizen doing my job kind

822
00:45:17,996 --> 00:45:19,836
Speaker 1: of stuff. You know, I don't want the distance between

823
00:45:19,836 --> 00:45:21,796
Speaker 1: me and everybody else to be that great, right, But

824
00:45:22,876 --> 00:45:28,236
Speaker 1: talking with her, man, this this combination of her intellect

825
00:45:28,756 --> 00:45:33,156
Speaker 1: and her analysis and just how smart she is and

826
00:45:33,196 --> 00:45:37,636
Speaker 1: also how at the same time how empathetic she is,

827
00:45:37,676 --> 00:45:40,876
Speaker 1: how caring, Yes, and those two things she has the

828
00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:44,476
Speaker 1: analysis of the caring and the empathy, and it's it's

829
00:45:44,516 --> 00:45:47,916
Speaker 1: part of her intelligence and vice versa, and that is

830
00:45:47,956 --> 00:45:52,236
Speaker 1: really rare. That's a superpower. Yeah right, yeah, I think

831
00:45:52,276 --> 00:45:55,876
Speaker 1: that's right. And I think that's what makes her appetite

832
00:45:55,916 --> 00:46:00,996
Speaker 1: and curiosity for trying to make sense of really complicated things.

833
00:46:01,596 --> 00:46:04,436
Speaker 1: And here's the other side of it. Just to explicate

834
00:46:04,476 --> 00:46:08,796
Speaker 1: what you're saying and then do it for young people,

835
00:46:09,276 --> 00:46:11,836
Speaker 1: like to say, I want young people to see how

836
00:46:11,876 --> 00:46:15,476
Speaker 1: this works in the way that adults sometimes figure it out.

837
00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:19,276
Speaker 1: But they shouldn't have to wait. They have every right

838
00:46:19,316 --> 00:46:21,876
Speaker 1: to understand this stuff as much as anybody and to

839
00:46:21,956 --> 00:46:24,716
Speaker 1: be part of the story. That's that is a rare

840
00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:28,756
Speaker 1: gift that she has. And the thing she said about

841
00:46:28,756 --> 00:46:33,276
Speaker 1: about when she was assigned to add to reread William's

842
00:46:33,316 --> 00:46:37,236
Speaker 1: story ironhout story of asking that question like who are

843
00:46:37,276 --> 00:46:41,076
Speaker 1: her people right, who cares about her? Who loves her? Yeah,

844
00:46:41,196 --> 00:46:45,596
Speaker 1: and and thinking about that that wider world that's connected

845
00:46:45,636 --> 00:46:47,756
Speaker 1: with what you just said. It's like it's both just

846
00:46:47,836 --> 00:46:50,596
Speaker 1: being like a good writer and thinker, but it is

847
00:46:50,636 --> 00:46:53,756
Speaker 1: thinking about this larger community, you know, especially for this

848
00:46:53,756 --> 00:46:56,556
Speaker 1: this young this black girl, Like who does she need

849
00:46:56,596 --> 00:46:59,556
Speaker 1: in her world to bolster her? That's to keep her going.

850
00:46:59,676 --> 00:47:03,836
Speaker 1: And it also cuts against traditions in the canon of

851
00:47:03,876 --> 00:47:09,036
Speaker 1: Western literature, which is generally about the individual protagonist who

852
00:47:09,396 --> 00:47:12,756
Speaker 1: by dint of their superpowers, can do everything on their own.

853
00:47:13,396 --> 00:47:16,156
Speaker 1: And what she's saying is actually, we need each other.

854
00:47:16,436 --> 00:47:19,596
Speaker 1: And in a way, that's the story of Wakanda, that's

855
00:47:19,636 --> 00:47:21,756
Speaker 1: the story of black Panther as a series. I mean,

856
00:47:21,796 --> 00:47:26,236
Speaker 1: that's kind of the intervention that's happening in this Marvel universe,

857
00:47:26,276 --> 00:47:30,636
Speaker 1: and that that scary collectivism that folks on the right

858
00:47:30,756 --> 00:47:34,196
Speaker 1: are basically saying, all this race stuff in these racial

859
00:47:34,236 --> 00:47:36,516
Speaker 1: representations are going to be the ruin of us. And

860
00:47:36,556 --> 00:47:41,276
Speaker 1: guess what, they're right, We're coming. I'm glad you're getting

861
00:47:41,276 --> 00:47:44,156
Speaker 1: into comics and you're getting into superheroes because you're seeing that,

862
00:47:44,556 --> 00:47:46,356
Speaker 1: you're seeing that it is just like the real world,

863
00:47:46,396 --> 00:47:48,076
Speaker 1: that it's a way to make sense of it, in

864
00:47:48,116 --> 00:47:52,396
Speaker 1: the way to expand our understanding and our imagination. And

865
00:47:52,476 --> 00:47:56,836
Speaker 1: guess what, there's this whole field of afrofuturism that uses

866
00:47:56,996 --> 00:47:59,356
Speaker 1: comics as the way it will imagine a future that's

867
00:47:59,356 --> 00:48:01,876
Speaker 1: different than the present. And that makes me feel better

868
00:48:01,876 --> 00:48:04,156
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's all this stuff we talk about can

869
00:48:04,156 --> 00:48:06,196
Speaker 1: be a little depressing. So I'm going to read more

870
00:48:06,196 --> 00:48:09,476
Speaker 1: comic books in twenty twenty three. All right, well, I

871
00:48:09,556 --> 00:48:17,876
Speaker 1: love you, Love you too. Some of My Best Friends

872
00:48:17,916 --> 00:48:21,196
Speaker 1: Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is

873
00:48:21,196 --> 00:48:24,316
Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron Mohammed, and my

874
00:48:24,356 --> 00:48:28,636
Speaker 1: best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Jonasanti and Lucy Sullivan.

875
00:48:29,116 --> 00:48:33,116
Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Knicks, our engineer is Amanda Kawan,

876
00:48:33,676 --> 00:48:39,036
Speaker 1: and our managing producer is Katonstanza Gallardo. At Pushkin thanks

877
00:48:39,036 --> 00:48:44,876
Speaker 1: to Leita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars,

878
00:48:45,236 --> 00:48:49,716
Speaker 1: Greta Khne, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily,

879
00:48:50,076 --> 00:48:53,676
Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from

880
00:48:53,676 --> 00:48:56,436
Speaker 1: his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his

881
00:48:56,556 --> 00:49:00,036
Speaker 1: music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You

882
00:49:00,076 --> 00:49:03,556
Speaker 1: can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,

883
00:49:03,876 --> 00:49:06,476
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin

884
00:49:06,556 --> 00:49:10,236
Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcast as listening on

885
00:49:10,276 --> 00:49:14,436
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.

886
00:49:14,556 --> 00:49:16,996
Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a

887
00:49:16,996 --> 00:49:19,636
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if

888
00:49:19,636 --> 00:49:21,276
Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

889
00:49:21,276 --> 00:49:24,156
Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best

890
00:49:24,196 --> 00:49:39,556
Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you for yeoh. Earlier in the

891
00:49:39,556 --> 00:49:42,956
Speaker 1: episode when you said, Wakanda, what accent was that? What

892
00:49:42,996 --> 00:49:45,316
Speaker 1: are you talking about? That's Chad Bowsman. I'm just I'm

893
00:49:45,356 --> 00:49:48,436
Speaker 1: just keeping I've keeping the accent alive. I don't know,

894
00:49:48,716 --> 00:49:51,756
Speaker 1: all right. So I found out the secret that Eve

895
00:49:51,836 --> 00:49:54,396
Speaker 1: couldn't tell us about what Marvel comics she's writing. She's

896
00:49:54,396 --> 00:49:58,596
Speaker 1: actually writing the new Black Panther comic. Holy smokes, Really, man,

897
00:49:58,836 --> 00:50:01,676
Speaker 1: it's gonna be amazing. Yes it is. I can't wait.