Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKA F Daily with
Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: I want to start out this morning with unpacking an
Speaker 1: article that our friend doctor Jonathan Metzo will reference in
Speaker 1: our interview that is coming up next. And you know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of times UM when political analysts
Speaker 1: scholars will dig into why they believe, um the Democratic
Speaker 1: Party is facing the challenges that it is facing, why
Speaker 1: Republicans seem to be able to win these culture wars
Speaker 1: that they start, and they will offer in their deep
Speaker 1: dives many of the reasons and the ways in which
Speaker 1: Democrats need to stay away from progressivism, that Democrats need
Speaker 1: to pay attention to quote unquote working class voters, and
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. And I have to tell
Speaker 1: you that I am really tired of having the same
Speaker 1: conversations over and over again. And I'm also really tired
Speaker 1: of folks having conversations and debates and totally disregarding the
Speaker 1: role that race and racism plays. It is intellectually dishonest
Speaker 1: to continue to have conversations about how and why our
Speaker 1: democracy is failing and considering and continuing to have conversations
Speaker 1: and talk about particular classes of voters, when in fact
Speaker 1: you were just talking about white people and how to
Speaker 1: keep white people happy so that the Democratic Party can win.
Speaker 1: And when people continue to say things like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: we need to go after swing voters and we need
Speaker 1: to move at a pace that is comfortable for the majority,
Speaker 1: what you are saying is that by even articulating the
Speaker 1: reality that is racism and segregation in this country, that
Speaker 1: Democrats will be doing themselves a disservice. That Republicans are
Speaker 1: able to continue to use the politics of manipulation and
Speaker 1: identity politics for their gain while stirring the pot for
Speaker 1: their aggrieved white working class base. But that Democrats, if
Speaker 1: you were to then actually peel apart the lump, the
Speaker 1: lumping of people of color and have honest conversations about
Speaker 1: the needs of these groups and how they are reflected
Speaker 1: back in the needs of the majority of Americans, then
Speaker 1: somehow you're going to piss off white people and then
Speaker 1: you're going to lose everything. The fact remains, folks, and
Speaker 1: I don't know how many fucking times that we have
Speaker 1: to say this. White men don't vote for Democrats, White
Speaker 1: women don't vote for Democrats, they never fucking and they
Speaker 1: never will again. Why because once the party opened itself
Speaker 1: up to people of color and started to advance policies
Speaker 1: and initiatives that would benefit those that were purposefully marginalized
Speaker 1: and left out of the American dream, white people fled.
Speaker 1: And so the only way to have an honest conversation
Speaker 1: about the direction that this country is going to go
Speaker 1: in is to say whether or not Democrats will once
Speaker 1: again follow in the footsteps of Republicans and ignore their
Speaker 1: growing base, ignore the Democratic the demographic shift, in favor
Speaker 1: of continuing to go after and water down policies so
Speaker 1: that white people remain fucking comfortable. There is no difference
Speaker 1: in the article that I am about to read to
Speaker 1: you and what it is that Dissantis is doing in
Speaker 1: Florida to ensure that white Floridians remain comfortable, right, Because
Speaker 1: until we decide that we are no longer going to
Speaker 1: offer up a body politic that is centered on whiteness,
Speaker 1: white wealth, white comfort, white growth, then we are never
Speaker 1: going to actually solve the problems that are facing this country.
Speaker 1: Because you see here in the conversation that Jonathan and
Speaker 1: I will have, which I think is in my humble opinion,
Speaker 1: one of the most important conversations that Jonathan and I
Speaker 1: have had in the last two years together. It is
Speaker 1: the most honest conversation that we have had, not just
Speaker 1: talking about one particular issue, whether it's COVID or gun
Speaker 1: rights or voting rights, but no talking about the collective right,
Speaker 1: because that is the problem in general with America right now,
Speaker 1: is that we don't talk about the collective, that we
Speaker 1: don't talk about the community. That instead we only talk
Speaker 1: about one group, and that is white people. And we
Speaker 1: use every single fucking phrase and word to describe the
Speaker 1: needs of white people without journalists and analysts and scholars
Speaker 1: actually using the word white. And I am tired of
Speaker 1: the bullshit and we'll call it out. So here's this
Speaker 1: article right now that was up in the Washington Post
Speaker 1: earlier this week, and it's entitled Democrats are engaged in
Speaker 1: a new politics of evasion that could cost them in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, new study says, and it's written by
Speaker 1: Dan Balls, who's the chief correspondent, and it brings up
Speaker 1: this new report that is being done thirty three years
Speaker 1: after the original by Elaine Camrack and William A. Gulston
Speaker 1: and These are two scholars from the Brookings Institute that
Speaker 1: initially wrote The Politics of Avasion back in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: nine after Mike Decoccus lost the presidential race. And this
Speaker 1: was their examination because over the last several right they
Speaker 1: believe it was the last six presidential elections between I
Speaker 1: believe it is nineteen sixty eight and a nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 1: Democrats lost all but one Jimmy Carter, who would then
Speaker 1: only go to serve one term. Republicans were winning all
Speaker 1: of them, and not only winning, but winning the electoral
Speaker 1: votes in a significant margin as compared to Democrats. Now,
Speaker 1: we have to understand that what was happening thirty three
Speaker 1: years ago, it's not the same as what is happening now.
Speaker 1: Climate change wasn't even in our lexicon at that time, right.
Speaker 1: And the fact is, while killings of black people, while
Speaker 1: the racial wealth gap was still in existence, while all
Speaker 1: of these things, we weren't having those conversations out in
Speaker 1: the open because no one gave a shit about black people.
Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that people actually care now,
Speaker 1: because they do not. But I want to unpack pieces
Speaker 1: of this article and pieces of the quotes that are
Speaker 1: taken from the report that was done by this group,
Speaker 1: these two political people at the Progressive Policy Institute. Excuse me, So,
Speaker 1: these two folks, William Galston and Elaine Camerack wrote this
Speaker 1: report initially thirty three years ago. They have revamped it
Speaker 1: for the politics of this moment, and it's been covered
Speaker 1: in the Washington Post. Here's one of their opening quotes.
Speaker 1: A Democrat loss in a Democratic loss in the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four presidential election may well have a catastrophic consequences
Speaker 1: for the country. We know this, right, We know that
Speaker 1: there is catastrophic consequences. But I want you to understand
Speaker 1: the three things that they believe are the pervasive myths
Speaker 1: that Democrats have been organizing around or have been completely
Speaker 1: disorganized around, depending on how you look at this picture.
Speaker 1: But here is what they believe. The three things that
Speaker 1: are leading Democrats astray. Number one, people of color, the
Speaker 1: grouping of people of color that they all think an
Speaker 1: act alike. That's number one. Number two that economics Trump's culture.
Speaker 1: And number three, which is one that I strongly disagree with,
Speaker 1: a progressive majority is emerging. These are the myths that
Speaker 1: they outline that Democrats actually need to understand. But I
Speaker 1: want to read you this as well, because I find
Speaker 1: all of this so like I want to scream. This
Speaker 1: is why I'm taking my time. So this is directly
Speaker 1: from the article quote. Their analysis is a centrist critique
Speaker 1: of a party that they fear has moved too far
Speaker 1: to the left and in the process increasingly has lost
Speaker 1: touch with the swing voters right and I'm using air
Speaker 1: quotes for those that are listening for the swing voters
Speaker 1: who still have the power to decide elections. Its publication
Speaker 1: comes a week after voters in San Francisco recalled three
Speaker 1: members of the local school board in a battle that
Speaker 1: underscored the limits of left wing politics even in such
Speaker 1: a liberal city, and an outcome that's set off alarms
Speaker 1: inside the party. Gallston and Camerack argue that in an
Speaker 1: age of close elections, five of the past six were
Speaker 1: decided by five points or fewer, mobilizing base voters is
Speaker 1: not enough to assure success. Now, let me pause right here,
Speaker 1: because that is utter and complete trash. Why do I
Speaker 1: think that? Because all Republicans do is organize and strengthen
Speaker 1: their base. Their base is white evangelical Christians that they
Speaker 1: have been pushing forward their agenda for the last four
Speaker 1: fucking decades. The problem with Democrats isn't that they actually
Speaker 1: pander to their base, which they don't. All Democrats have
Speaker 1: been doing over the past three and four decades is
Speaker 1: pandering to the group of white working class Americans that
Speaker 1: don't fuck with them and have never fucked with them. Right.
Speaker 1: When have Democrats actually quote unquote tried to ensure the
Speaker 1: success of their base, which is Black Americans, Latin X Americans,
Speaker 1: LGBTQ Americans, those that live at the intersections, young Americans. Right,
Speaker 1: when have they ever offered up policies that have been
Speaker 1: polled that have said that if you do these things,
Speaker 1: these people are with you. For instance, fucking voting rights
Speaker 1: right number two, student loan debt relief number three, fucking
Speaker 1: action on climate change. These are not quote unquote progressive
Speaker 1: and overreaches in policy. They are actually the fundamentals of
Speaker 1: creating a secured democracy, right, One that allows people to
Speaker 1: have financial freedom, one that allows them the liberty that
Speaker 1: is said in our Creed, of being able to choose
Speaker 1: their representatives and to create a government that is foreigned
Speaker 1: by the people. And then the other is tackling Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know the existential of existential crises, which is
Speaker 1: the fact that our climate isn't just slow pace changing,
Speaker 1: it is rapidly fucking changing, and we all see it
Speaker 1: happening now with our own eyes. In the same way
Speaker 1: in the movie don't look Up said there's a comet coming. Oh,
Speaker 1: but we'll wait until we see it, and it's too
Speaker 1: late for us to actually make any changes. So these
Speaker 1: are not liberal ideas. They're the foundation of how you
Speaker 1: secure a fucking country in a changing world. And so again,
Speaker 1: stop with the lies, right, stop, stop with the analysis
Speaker 1: that doesn't actually use a racialized lens, which is all
Speaker 1: that America has ever used, which is why we have
Speaker 1: such an extreme gap in health and wealth in this
Speaker 1: country depending on your race. Let me take a breath,
Speaker 1: because I am It is this type of critique, dear friends,
Speaker 1: these type of articles that allow democrats to have the
Speaker 1: cover to once again disregard the group that gets them
Speaker 1: to power in the first place, in right, in exchange
Speaker 1: for their desire to chase after this very small, fleeting,
Speaker 1: shrinking class of people, white people. Let me go on.
Speaker 1: This is what they say in the report quote. Even
Speaker 1: though deepening partisanship has reduced the number of swing voters.
Speaker 1: Oh really, the narrow margins of our national elections have
Speaker 1: made these voters more important than ever. This reality will
Speaker 1: dominate national politics until one party breaks the deadlock of
Speaker 1: the past three decades and creates a decisive national majority. Now,
Speaker 1: let us also once again be very clear about how
Speaker 1: each of these parties actually think about breaking this deadlock
Speaker 1: that they are talking about. So, how do you have
Speaker 1: a decisive national majority? If you are a Republican, you
Speaker 1: roll out four hundred voter suppression laws across the country
Speaker 1: in every single state. That's number one. Number two, You
Speaker 1: roll back policies that Americans actually voted for in places
Speaker 1: like Florida that would restore voting rights to those that
Speaker 1: were previously incarcerated. You roll that back. Right. You make
Speaker 1: examples of people who have one accidentally voted, and if
Speaker 1: they are people of color, you throw them in jail,
Speaker 1: like they did in Texas for six federal for six
Speaker 1: years in federal prison, well over the time that you
Speaker 1: get for actually killing a black person. Right in these
Speaker 1: United States, you do everything in your power not to
Speaker 1: win more votes, but to make sure that those that
Speaker 1: you know will not vote for you cannot vote. So
Speaker 1: it is really easy, right to look at the governorships
Speaker 1: that are held by a majority of Republicans and decide
Speaker 1: that you're not looking for new voters, you're looking to
Speaker 1: restrict the number of people that are able to vote.
Speaker 1: So again saying that what will dominate the national politics
Speaker 1: without unpacking the strategies that both parties are using, one
Speaker 1: being both of them being completely and totally legal because
Speaker 1: we don't make voting a fundamental part of our push
Speaker 1: to secure our democracy. We think that it's a nice
Speaker 1: to have, right. Oh, we would be nice to name
Speaker 1: a bill after the late great John Lewis and then
Speaker 1: get that pass. But don't you know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to do it. But we'll keep fighting, is what democrats do.
Speaker 1: And what I realize here, folks, is that you have
Speaker 1: two parties one that is woefully, woefully ineffective, right. And
Speaker 1: it isn't just with regard to the three ways in
Speaker 1: which they decide to evade reality. It's the fact that
Speaker 1: both parties center whiteness. Republicans do so in a way
Speaker 1: that tells white people that they are aggrieved, that they
Speaker 1: are owed right, and that anyone that gets in their
Speaker 1: way is somehow undeserving right, and so because they are undeserving,
Speaker 1: we need to either strip away right the law that
Speaker 1: allowed them to somehow begin to close these very large
Speaker 1: gaps right in our society. And then you have Democrats
Speaker 1: on the other hand that want to say to these people, oh,
Speaker 1: we're fighting for you, We're here for you, and give
Speaker 1: a bunch of lip service, but then actually not put
Speaker 1: any strategies that are in place because they also don't
Speaker 1: want to upset white people. So you see who is
Speaker 1: winning on both sides and who gets completely fucking overlooked
Speaker 1: and erased. And what this article fails to actually recognize
Speaker 1: and spotlight, which is that truth. Why are the white
Speaker 1: working class and white wealthy people running to the Republican
Speaker 1: Party because not because of economic anxiety, but because of
Speaker 1: the fact that they are going to lose power in
Speaker 1: the next few years, and so in order to not
Speaker 1: lose power, they need to go with the party that
Speaker 1: is going to create and a part tied situation in
Speaker 1: the United States once again, so that they remain on top.
Speaker 1: And then you have the other party that doesn't want
Speaker 1: to see race right. They are the literal white moderates
Speaker 1: that Martin Luther King Jr. Warned us about, warned us about,
Speaker 1: but that we're still digging around with. That's the situation
Speaker 1: that we are in. That's the reality, and so it
Speaker 1: isn't And then this is what they say. For that,
Speaker 1: I gotta this is a point that I want to
Speaker 1: read and I want to get your thoughts on what
Speaker 1: you think here about what is said and what is
Speaker 1: not actually said. Democrats, they write, must consider the possibility
Speaker 1: that Hispanics will turn out to be the Italians of
Speaker 1: the twenty first century, family oriented, religious, patriotic, striving to
Speaker 1: to succeed in their adopted country, and supportive of public
Speaker 1: policies that expand economic opportunity without dictating results. They note
Speaker 1: that ultimately, quote, Italians became Republicans. Democrats must rethink their
Speaker 1: approach if they hope to retain majority support among Hispanics. So,
Speaker 1: once again, let me break this down. What did Italians
Speaker 1: do when they came to the United States and there
Speaker 1: were signs up in windows that said, do not hire
Speaker 1: Italians After they were literally ghetto wised and marginalized. Those
Speaker 1: same people, right, the ancestors of the people that live
Speaker 1: in this country now change their fucking names. They change
Speaker 1: their names and they change their accents, right, and they
Speaker 1: disavowed themselves of many of their heritages just enough so
Speaker 1: that they could assimilate into an increasingly hostile and discriminatory country.
Speaker 1: They were able to do that because you see, they
Speaker 1: don't wear their differences on the outside like black people do.
Speaker 1: And so what this statement is saying without actually saying
Speaker 1: and delving into that reality, is that Hispanics will have
Speaker 1: the opportunity, particularly white Latinos, will have the opportunity right
Speaker 1: to you know, assimilate more into America if they don't
Speaker 1: align themselves right with say, the immigration movement, with let's say,
Speaker 1: the education movement, with let's say, as long as they
Speaker 1: recognize that if they align themselves more so to the
Speaker 1: proximity of whiteness, even though they are not white, that
Speaker 1: they will fare better, That they will be then the
Speaker 1: next class that people are, the next group that people
Speaker 1: are chasing, that politicians are chasing. But you see, they
Speaker 1: can say all of those things without giving the contexts
Speaker 1: to the situation in which Italians came to this country, Right,
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating. Folks like I am deeply frustrated
Speaker 1: when I see conversations like this happen, and I am hopeful.
Speaker 1: I am hopeful that in the coming weeks we will
Speaker 1: have the authors of this report on woke a f
Speaker 1: because I have real questions that I want to ask,
Speaker 1: because I don't understand how, once again it is being
Speaker 1: looked at through this quote unquote neutral white gaze and
Speaker 1: perspective that disavows racism and race and the complexities of
Speaker 1: those issues in this country, and how it has always
Speaker 1: been embedded into our politics and into our policies. And
Speaker 1: if we're not going to tell the truth, then how
Speaker 1: are we going to come up with a plan that
Speaker 1: is actually going to fight against this fascist and authoritarianism
Speaker 1: regime When all you're trying to do is what wardered
Speaker 1: down said politics, policies that are actually needed to close
Speaker 1: gaps and to better this country and to strengthen our democracy.
Speaker 1: How are we going to be able to do these
Speaker 1: things when we are not telling the truth about the
Speaker 1: origins of the fucking problem. So coming up next, Jonathan
Speaker 1: and I will dig into a very in depth conversation
Speaker 1: about this America's existential crises and whether or not we
Speaker 1: have the strength of fortitude or the desire to try
Speaker 1: and fix what is broken in America. Folks. There is
Speaker 1: a lot going on in the world in America and
Speaker 1: society in my own mind right now, and there's no
Speaker 1: one better to walk us through this than our favorite
Speaker 1: Wednesday guest, doctor Jonathan Metzel, author of Dying of Whiteness. Jonathan,
Speaker 1: you know, oftentimes when there is so much going on,
Speaker 1: I always say to the guests, what are you paying
Speaker 1: attention to? I think that that is like a really
Speaker 1: heavy question these days, because what are you not paying
Speaker 1: attention to? You have NPR recognizing the fact that we
Speaker 1: have a new variant B dot a dot two of
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen news broke that. Guess what. Boris Johnson has
Speaker 1: decided that he's rolling back all COVID protections in the
Speaker 1: all COVID restrictions in the UK. You have impending war
Speaker 1: happening in Russia, which has been impending at least for
Speaker 1: the last two months whenever Putin rolled out one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand troops to encircle the Ukraine and then
Speaker 1: now has made moves about recognizing other parts of the
Speaker 1: Ukraine as independent vessels to then deflate Ukraine's power as
Speaker 1: a as a solo nation um and then the United
Speaker 1: States deciding that they're going to roll out what more,
Speaker 1: I don't even know. So I say all that to say, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: not to mention the fact that you can get more
Speaker 1: time in jail for killing a dog or dog fighting
Speaker 1: like Michael Vick did than Kim Potter did for killing
Speaker 1: an unarmed young black man at the prime of his
Speaker 1: life who was also a father. And then you can
Speaker 1: listen to a judge go off on the empathy for
Speaker 1: this horrible mistake, a mistake that stole a child from
Speaker 1: their mother. But let us only look at the tears
Speaker 1: of white women. So when I say, what are you
Speaker 1: paying attention to? What are you paying attention to? Well,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a we're having a moment on our
Speaker 1: planet right now, and it's not a good moment. I
Speaker 1: think you're right. I mean, I think you and I
Speaker 1: are probably we should just do this, we should do
Speaker 1: this show at three thirty in the morning, because I
Speaker 1: bet you and I are probably both awake. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's a really hard moment right now,
Speaker 1: because two things I will say. First of all, well,
Speaker 1: I mean I've been thinking a lot about Rocky four
Speaker 1: and how how the Russians used to be the bad guy.
Speaker 1: You know, they killed Apollo Creed and um, and they
Speaker 1: had to pay for that. Um. And then and then
Speaker 1: we had this danumant our system went out. It was
Speaker 1: better Rocky went to Russia. UM. You know, he promoted
Speaker 1: change in the final scene of Rocky four. It was
Speaker 1: a moment where our side was winning. And Rocky also
Speaker 1: you know, made Vondrago pay for what he did in
Speaker 1: a certain kind of way. So think of all the
Speaker 1: work that went into that. You know, Rocky had trained
Speaker 1: through three movies. Um. But it also represented like and
Speaker 1: it's ascendance of our worldview right in a certain kind
Speaker 1: of ways. So and um, you know I've been teasing
Speaker 1: my brother loves that. Maybe, so I call him and
Speaker 1: I quote the final scene of that movie, because Rocky says,
Speaker 1: if yous can change, we can change, we can all change,
Speaker 1: or something like that. Like I just call and read
Speaker 1: the Rocky quote. But the thing is, it used to
Speaker 1: be funny when I would do that all the time
Speaker 1: to him, and now it's actually not that funny anymore.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it wasn't funny in the first place,
Speaker 1: because did we really win? You know? Is that really
Speaker 1: what happened or is the loop of history coming back
Speaker 1: right now? And so many of us have lived in
Speaker 1: the past whatever thirty years thinking that the values of
Speaker 1: our country, which of course have been exposed over the
Speaker 1: past couple of years and much longer for many people,
Speaker 1: but the values of our country in opposition to the
Speaker 1: values of you know, ungoverned, white aggressive fascism, that really
Speaker 1: we were part of a system that was more vibrant,
Speaker 1: that people wanted, that allowed creativity and nourishing and all
Speaker 1: those kind of things. And right now that that seems
Speaker 1: like it's up for grabs in a way. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a moment where we rethink,
Speaker 1: um are you know, they're the dominant narrative. The dominant narrative,
Speaker 1: for example, is you know, America had a lot of division,
Speaker 1: but we came together to fight the Nazis and in
Speaker 1: World War two a victory for a new World order,
Speaker 1: all those kind of things. But there was a sub
Speaker 1: a subtext um in the United States always of kind
Speaker 1: of the Charles Lindberg's of the world, the people who
Speaker 1: were saying, what the Nazis aren't that bad, It's just that,
Speaker 1: you know, the minute Pearl Harbor happened, those voices got silence,
Speaker 1: but they didn't go away. And so in a way,
Speaker 1: right now, it's a it's a really terrifying moment in
Speaker 1: a way, not just because of the acts of a
Speaker 1: really an an unhinged aggressor right in Russia with a
Speaker 1: lot of army and nuclear weapons, um, but also because
Speaker 1: what it represents for our country, right, this idea that
Speaker 1: basically um, that form of you know, let's just invade
Speaker 1: and and you know, let's just invade Arizona or Wisconsin
Speaker 1: or something like that. Like I just I see that
Speaker 1: that logic kind of taking back over the world now.
Speaker 1: And so it's happening in Russia, but it's also a
Speaker 1: reflection of kind of a logic that's happening here. And
Speaker 1: I guess the fear is is our system strong enough
Speaker 1: to unify in opposition to that kind of I mean,
Speaker 1: this is honestly, it's not. Yeah, it's I mean it's not.
Speaker 1: It's I think that you know what what has troubled me,
Speaker 1: Jonathan um. And this is why I enjoy our conversations
Speaker 1: because they're not sound bites, right, because we can actually
Speaker 1: have a conversation yea, and this better audit but yeah, right,
Speaker 1: like this warrants more than you know, than than than
Speaker 1: a minute split between three people on the news. Um
Speaker 1: is the reality our our system isn't strong. And I
Speaker 1: think that that is the thing that we are all
Speaker 1: still trying to come to understand, is that America's system,
Speaker 1: political system, all of our systems were based on norms,
Speaker 1: were based on a shared belief. I saw your tweet
Speaker 1: um from from the night before that said, you know
Speaker 1: you were talking about Rocky for and you're like this
Speaker 1: the same shared values that we had in in that film,
Speaker 1: which yes, it's it's a it's a boxing movie, but
Speaker 1: we all know where we were in the Cold War
Speaker 1: and why it was such like a major thing, right.
Speaker 1: It's it's the same reason why we feel a deep
Speaker 1: sense or used to feel a deep sense of patriotism
Speaker 1: around the Olympics, right because you get to see America
Speaker 1: be great at these you know, at these sports. The
Speaker 1: reality is is that what what was illuminated, not what
Speaker 1: Trump created, but what was illuminated during the years of
Speaker 1: tru was the fact that everything that we have known
Speaker 1: to be true about America was based on a set
Speaker 1: of false ideals and understandings, and a basically handshake deals
Speaker 1: between both parties that we may not like your overt
Speaker 1: spending and we may not like your conservativism, but at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, we are Americans, and what
Speaker 1: does that believe mean? We believe in freedom, we believe
Speaker 1: in justice. Now, you can then talk to black Americans
Speaker 1: and they tell you an entirely different story about the
Speaker 1: truth about America and its allegiance to justice and liberty
Speaker 1: and freedom and who has that and who doesn't. You
Speaker 1: can talk to women, you can talk to poor people,
Speaker 1: and they have a different understanding of those fundamental shared beliefs.
Speaker 1: But if you were to just take the fifty thousand
Speaker 1: foot view, that's who we were, or that's who we
Speaker 1: thought this idea of perfecting this imperfect union, right, is
Speaker 1: that each generation has its work. Now have an entire party.
Speaker 1: Half of the fucking country is waving Russian flags thinking
Speaker 1: that Putin is their hero, right and look at him
Speaker 1: and how strong he is, and he's a strong man,
Speaker 1: right and and but it's like, so the question our
Speaker 1: system strong enough? No, we're not even going to have
Speaker 1: a free and fair election in a couple of months,
Speaker 1: let alone in twenty twenty four. So to me, that's
Speaker 1: not it's not our system strong enough. It's like, what
Speaker 1: are we going to do? Because the bad is here
Speaker 1: and it's not going anywhere? So how do we prepare?
Speaker 1: Is my question? But do you believe that we're even
Speaker 1: in the mindset to start talking about preparation when we're
Speaker 1: still literally looking up at the at the comment that's
Speaker 1: coming towards us. I think there are two ways to
Speaker 1: answer that. I mean, one way is a SoundBite, which
Speaker 1: is that half the country potentially has more in common
Speaker 1: with Russia than with the ideal of America that fought
Speaker 1: World War two and and liberated concentration camps. Right that
Speaker 1: in a way, it's not like we've ever thought there
Speaker 1: was just one way to be American that we've always
Speaker 1: had George Wallace, We've always had the Birch Society, you know,
Speaker 1: we've always had that stuff. It's just that there was
Speaker 1: there was a democratic ideal that one out over those things,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't seem to be the case right now,
Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, there there was, and so
Speaker 1: so partially I think that it's like it's a scary moment,
Speaker 1: not just because of Russia, again, but because of our
Speaker 1: internal politics where where the forces that support those ideals
Speaker 1: seem to be on the ropes, you know right now
Speaker 1: to continue the metaphor and um and so that's one
Speaker 1: side of the coin um. And so in a way,
Speaker 1: just the idea that we're mobilizing to make Russia pay,
Speaker 1: like sanctions or moving troops to defend our allies, you
Speaker 1: know that that requires that kind of uniformity. Now, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe at a time when we're all challenged, we can
Speaker 1: come together a little more than we're doing. I mean,
Speaker 1: that would be the optimistic switch spin on this. But
Speaker 1: we've just seen when we were all facing the coronavirus
Speaker 1: that in the face of a common enemy, we've become
Speaker 1: more divided. And partially that's because of Russian disinformation because
Speaker 1: of what's happened, but it's also because so much crap
Speaker 1: has been exposed and amplified in this country that it's
Speaker 1: going to be hard to it's going to be hard
Speaker 1: to even conceptualize that we're on the same side. Now.
Speaker 1: There was a good piece in the Washington Post this
Speaker 1: morning by some people I think at Brookings that talked
Speaker 1: about how this is a moment really for Democrats to
Speaker 1: come together completely. There were two interesting points of this article.
Speaker 1: I thought number one is every effort has to be
Speaker 1: towards saving democracy, not about internal divisions among Democrats. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's possible in the Democratic Party, but
Speaker 1: it basically said that, you know it basically no mystery
Speaker 1: that you're going to be relegated to perpetual you know,
Speaker 1: um resistance party if if you don't, if you don't
Speaker 1: figure out ways to unify and divide and not divide.
Speaker 1: And the other interesting point was, I mean, it used
Speaker 1: a euphemism that I don't like social issues, but it
Speaker 1: said that Democrats had made a mistake assuming that you
Speaker 1: could unify the party in economic issues and not better
Speaker 1: counter like, basically that we've lost the social issues influencing
Speaker 1: independent swing voters to decide elections to Republicans in a way.
Speaker 1: So coming together would also be figuring out some common
Speaker 1: messaging to win elections based on social issues. That's an
Speaker 1: awful lot considering it's February and the U and the
Speaker 1: election is November. But I think that's kind of a
Speaker 1: sense of what we're faced. Thing right now is a
Speaker 1: momentous task, because this is a moment where that kind of.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all in the context so fascism and
Speaker 1: all these kind of things in the pandemic, but that
Speaker 1: kind of turn is happening again in the world, and
Speaker 1: it's kind of like number one, how can you fight back?
Speaker 1: And number two where is safe? I mean that's those
Speaker 1: are the two kind of questions. And the thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, is where is safe? Right? Is probably to
Speaker 1: me the most important question to ask, because my follower
Speaker 1: would be, well, what does safety actually look like? Right?
Speaker 1: Because safety in this climate, I mean, you're we name
Speaker 1: at the top so many different crises that we are
Speaker 1: facing all at once. Safety looks like what the ability
Speaker 1: to have a rocket ship so that you can leave Earth?
Speaker 1: You know, like it is safety, financial freedom when millions
Speaker 1: of Americans are saddled with student loan debt, is safety? Health?
Speaker 1: You know, in a time when we're at close to
Speaker 1: a million Americans have died of COVID and we have
Speaker 1: a completely crumbling, deteriorating healthcare system that can't do the
Speaker 1: bare minimum, let alone be able to operate that at
Speaker 1: a health pandemic, you have politicians that are advertising their
Speaker 1: candidacy with using actual guns, right like, and this is
Speaker 1: this is now the norm. So I struggle to understand
Speaker 1: even what we mean collectively when we are talking about safety,
Speaker 1: because our idea of what feels safe is no longer
Speaker 1: the same. And I guess for me in a part
Speaker 1: of the issue is what happens to what we've been
Speaker 1: calling social justice in that context? Right? So many things
Speaker 1: have been exposed and illuminated over the past couple of years,
Speaker 1: and there has been a lot of effort to recognize
Speaker 1: the inequities in our society. But I but I feel
Speaker 1: like when we're faced with such an urgent threat from
Speaker 1: an external you know, I think the other question that
Speaker 1: I think will be asking over the next fifty years is, uh,
Speaker 1: is what happens to internal politics? Right? In a way,
Speaker 1: What's what's the impact going to be on on education,
Speaker 1: on efforts to address inequity? Um? And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's really it's it's kind of you know, I
Speaker 1: just think of Martin Luther King's debate about chaos versus community, like,
Speaker 1: what what are the people who care about social justice?
Speaker 1: Do they do they rebel against the system? Do they
Speaker 1: say to hell with everything? Is a protest movement where
Speaker 1: a Balkanized protest movement um or is this let's win
Speaker 1: elections because we're in a democracy and you and you
Speaker 1: enact change by winning elections and appointing judges and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. And I think you know that that's a
Speaker 1: that's a kind of urgent question. It's ironically the same question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but the stakes are, believe it or not even
Speaker 1: higher right now in the middle of a pandemic. The
Speaker 1: issues are worse in some in some parts of the country,
Speaker 1: you know, people don't have water, they don't have safety,
Speaker 1: and so the question is going to be like, what's
Speaker 1: the response, right, is the response in the system or
Speaker 1: is the response a kind of giving up on this system?
Speaker 1: And I think that that I think that that's that's
Speaker 1: pretty urgent, right, I mean, are people Do people want
Speaker 1: to be in a perpetual state of resistance to America
Speaker 1: right now? Or do they want to try to come
Speaker 1: together to save America? And I think that's not an
Speaker 1: easy question given everything we know about America at this moment. God, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: those are really good and really existential, right, questions that
Speaker 1: you know for so long. I feel like people like
Speaker 1: you and I who been having these conversations for the
Speaker 1: last two years have been told in so many ways
Speaker 1: that we are hyperbolic, that elections will continue, democracy will continue,
Speaker 1: the pandemic will end, life will go back to what
Speaker 1: it was. And two years later, here we are and
Speaker 1: things have not gotten better, they've gotten worse. We were
Speaker 1: waiting on a vaccine. Okay, the vaccine came in, twenty
Speaker 1: five percent of the population doesn't want to take it.
Speaker 1: We thought that we were going, We were in a
Speaker 1: good place as it pertains to race relations. Then we
Speaker 1: all collectively watched, in the midst of a pandemic a
Speaker 1: black man be murdered and broad daylight by a police officer,
Speaker 1: and we still had to cross our fingers and our
Speaker 1: tales hoping that that police officer would go to jail
Speaker 1: for what we all witnessed collectively. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: the question is, we have so many questions and there
Speaker 1: aren't a lot of solutions to the moment that we're
Speaker 1: in because we've never been here before. And even if
Speaker 1: we're using history as our guide, the confluence of all
Speaker 1: of these things, right is what's making it really imposed
Speaker 1: to come up with a step by step plan to
Speaker 1: deal with one thing over here when there are eighty
Speaker 1: five behind it. So I guess you know, the real
Speaker 1: question for Democrats as we march into the inevitable loss
Speaker 1: of midterm elections and then the inevitable loss of the
Speaker 1: presidential in twenty twenty four and the inevitable loss, is like,
Speaker 1: what does what does it mean to be safe? And
Speaker 1: in a country that is becoming increasingly unsafe, do we
Speaker 1: still profess to look at look after solely the individual
Speaker 1: or are we interested now in actually looking at the collective,
Speaker 1: in recognizing that we do need community? Because I'll tell
Speaker 1: you that one of the things I think was is
Speaker 1: the major downfall of America is this bullshit idealization of
Speaker 1: the rugged individualism. If we actually wore more and more
Speaker 1: community minded, were more thinking about the collective and the
Speaker 1: betterment of the whole, we wouldn't be in a lot
Speaker 1: of these situation that we're in. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's a and you know, to even make it even
Speaker 1: more cheerful, it's also going to be in the context
Speaker 1: of a world that rewards um unbridled aggression. Right. I
Speaker 1: mean I think that I think that the reason the
Speaker 1: stuff in Ukraine matters so much is because it really
Speaker 1: is potentially the first domino of many to fall um
Speaker 1: and I just don't mean Russia, you know, China, um
Speaker 1: and and the United States in a certain kind of way. Um.
Speaker 1: And so in a way, it's kind of like the
Speaker 1: stakes of of thinking in a collective way. They've never
Speaker 1: been more important, and they've also never been more difficult
Speaker 1: that the you know, you don't have the luxury of
Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. Um. You know, and and
Speaker 1: so I feel like, you know, just a lot of
Speaker 1: things are happening at one time right now, and and
Speaker 1: and it makes sense, you know, our conversations over the
Speaker 1: past few years really are leading to what's happening now.
Speaker 1: In a way, I totally agree with that. But but
Speaker 1: it's it's just that the where do you go from there?
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I don't want to I did
Speaker 1: a book club last night for Dying of Whiteness, and
Speaker 1: the people were amazing. It was an incredible conversation, um.
Speaker 1: And I was talking about how, you know, the kind
Speaker 1: of core argument of the book that as a tradeoff
Speaker 1: for a position atop of social hierarchy, white Americans are
Speaker 1: being asked and willingly trading away their own lifespans and
Speaker 1: and people still couldn't get their heads around it. They
Speaker 1: kept saying, is it a cult? Is there a is
Speaker 1: there a DSM diagnosis for Trump? Is there is there um? Like,
Speaker 1: is this their anxiety about being the demographic minority, you know,
Speaker 1: in fifty years or forty years or whatever. And I
Speaker 1: kept saying, you know, I love that. I wish that
Speaker 1: was the case. Honestly, if they it was just a
Speaker 1: mental illness, we could just treat them up to illness.
Speaker 1: But really, what it is is a power graph. What
Speaker 1: they're doing is they're they're graving power. And if we
Speaker 1: pathologize them or moralize using public health and saying, look
Speaker 1: at how dumb they are they're not getting the vaccine,
Speaker 1: you kind of missed the point that it's a it's
Speaker 1: a power graph. And so the question is the response
Speaker 1: to a power graph is not to show vaccine and
Speaker 1: vaccination charts, you know, it's actually to respond with power.
Speaker 1: And the example I gave was that all the nonsense
Speaker 1: for the critical race theory stuff for school boards, that
Speaker 1: the minute they started pulling the CRT stuff, our response
Speaker 1: was to respond to it in content, to say, oh,
Speaker 1: critical race theory, it's only from law schools from the seventies.
Speaker 1: The minute that happened relost in other words, you know,
Speaker 1: a better response would have been the minute that people
Speaker 1: started showing up to school boards. A hundred people show
Speaker 1: at the school boards, yelling at the school board members.
Speaker 1: We show up seven thousand people to every school board
Speaker 1: in support of having different kinds of books in the
Speaker 1: library and being able to have academic freedom. Other words,
Speaker 1: where was the mobilization, the mass mobilization in support of
Speaker 1: our ideals, Like I can't remember that happening one time,
Speaker 1: Like was there a mass mobilization in response to libraries
Speaker 1: banning books? Was? You know, I don't know. I guess
Speaker 1: we all think it's somebody else's responsibility. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And so in a way it's easy to say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a mental illness or lookout them they are for
Speaker 1: not getting things. But the thing is we're in a
Speaker 1: power struggle, and so when when when they are when
Speaker 1: all the only video of school boards is people saying
Speaker 1: throw away the books from the library, and not ten
Speaker 1: thousand people showing up and saying we support having lots
Speaker 1: of books in the library. You know that that's kind
Speaker 1: of where you've lose rights. It's not about debating the
Speaker 1: merits of critical race theory. I mean, we should do
Speaker 1: that also, but it's like the minute you're doing that,
Speaker 1: you're on you're already playing defense, and you really need
Speaker 1: to be playing offense. So I don't know. It's just
Speaker 1: interesting that even now when I do dying a whiteness,
Speaker 1: things like what I said in the book club was
Speaker 1: I'm actually arguing against the conclusions of my own book,
Speaker 1: and people will arguing with me, trying to get me
Speaker 1: to make arguments I made two years ago. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not you know, I'm arguing against myself. So it's
Speaker 1: it's a weird time, man. And but I think that
Speaker 1: that's it's so smart, though, Jonathan, because what you what
Speaker 1: you are modeling in that book club is the fact
Speaker 1: that like the world around us is evolving, that there
Speaker 1: is no idea that is immovable, right, Like it just isn't.
Speaker 1: And it takes you know, recognition and vigilance to recognize
Speaker 1: that what I thought two years ago is not reality.
Speaker 1: Now that's the problem you want to It's not a diagnosis,
Speaker 1: but that's part of the problem of where we are.
Speaker 1: Where Republicans want to drag America backwards in the hope
Speaker 1: that they can stop evolution, that they can stop progress,
Speaker 1: that they can stop a demographic shift. If we don't
Speaker 1: talk right about America's origin story, if we continue to
Speaker 1: whitewash it, if we gas light the entire nation and
Speaker 1: generations to come, and then remove books, remove education, remove enlightenment,
Speaker 1: remove critical thinking. Right, it is it's about power, and
Speaker 1: it's about control, because if you know nothing right, and
Speaker 1: you believe that the people that you represent are actually
Speaker 1: there for your good will but they're not right, then
Speaker 1: like you're easy to control and manipulate, particularly when the
Speaker 1: basis like the systems that are supposed to be there
Speaker 1: to protect you, like our education system, our healthcare system,
Speaker 1: our environmental system, all of these things are broken down,
Speaker 1: then your basic needs aren't even being met. So then
Speaker 1: what happens, right, violence? Right, Like, so all of these
Speaker 1: things are bubbling up. We're watching it on a macro scale.
Speaker 1: Happen in the Ukraine, but to your point, it's happening
Speaker 1: in the United States. We just don't call them invasions.
Speaker 1: But I don't know what else you would call what
Speaker 1: we've seen at school boards. I don't know what else
Speaker 1: you would call the insurrection. I don't know what else
Speaker 1: you would call the overtaking of the Capitol Building in
Speaker 1: Michigan in twenty twenty. If those aren't those, if we're
Speaker 1: not using the language to describe what is happening, then
Speaker 1: we definitely do not have the strategy in place to
Speaker 1: stop it and also to rebuild the structures that support
Speaker 1: you know, like think of how much work went into
Speaker 1: building the public school system, for example, after Brown versus
Speaker 1: Board of Education rights, massive mobilization of effort and resources
Speaker 1: and talent. And so I don't know who's defending those
Speaker 1: structures right now, because those are the structures that support
Speaker 1: our world view. I actually don't agree that it's going backwards. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's a power graph in a
Speaker 1: certain kind of way that in a way we have
Speaker 1: to see it as a zero sum formulation in a
Speaker 1: way now it feels awfully regressive right because it's anti scientific,
Speaker 1: anti expertise, and but but I don't know. Part of
Speaker 1: what's happening is they're making liberal America or the United States,
Speaker 1: if you think of the Russian approach right now, pay
Speaker 1: a high price for supporting pluralistic democracy or social programs.
Speaker 1: Those become very costly in the face of trying to
Speaker 1: defend yourself. So it turns, with the strength of liberal
Speaker 1: America into into real liabilities in a way. And so
Speaker 1: the question is what's your response. And again, I with
Speaker 1: all due respect, I mean, I'm a scholar of critical
Speaker 1: race theory, right I've built my career on it. But
Speaker 1: I would also say that fending crediical race theory is
Speaker 1: not where we need to be right now. It's every
Speaker 1: time that happens, you mobilize and you support that ideal
Speaker 1: and you support that structure. I just feel like critical
Speaker 1: race theory is a textbook example right now of how
Speaker 1: we got derailed and did not support or fight back
Speaker 1: in a way that really took um. You know, you
Speaker 1: know that that's obviously an effort to control school boards
Speaker 1: and defund education, but we're too easily derailed. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think everybody should read that Washington postpace this morning,
Speaker 1: even though many people want to agree with it, just
Speaker 1: to just to see about what kind of wents it stayed.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jonathan, there is so much that is at stake,
Speaker 1: and I know that we do our very best not
Speaker 1: to present a dooming gloom perspective, but the reality is
Speaker 1: is that if you are not concerned. If you're not
Speaker 1: up at three am, you're really paying attention. And I
Speaker 1: do believe in balance, trust me, but I also believe
Speaker 1: that these times are going to get continue to get
Speaker 1: more and more increasingly perilous. And the question is what
Speaker 1: can you do right as individuals, as part of communities
Speaker 1: to keep yourself safe and examine what that safety looks
Speaker 1: like in order to be able to make it to
Speaker 1: the other side. Because the road that we are on,
Speaker 1: dear friends, is going to be a long and rough one. Jonathan.
Speaker 1: We just appreciate each and every week that you are
Speaker 1: on this road with us, and so we will see
Speaker 1: what happens next week. Appreciate you. Take everybody in WWRD.
Speaker 1: What would Rocky do? I haven't beat the shit out
Speaker 1: of somebody. Yeah, folks, And now for your woke moment
Speaker 1: of wellness before we close out the show. The articles,
Speaker 1: these conversations that we are having can be incredibly debilitating,
Speaker 1: and I mean this, I say this all of the time.
Speaker 1: And I talked to you yesterday about feeling guilty with
Speaker 1: just resting, just laying down on my couch, and so
Speaker 1: this morning I decided to do a very lengthy meditation
Speaker 1: usually I do you know, if I have time about
Speaker 1: five to fifteen minutes right, Yes, this morning I decided
Speaker 1: to do one that was over thirty minutes because I
Speaker 1: realized that my my vibration is out of whack right now,
Speaker 1: that any time that I take a little bit of
Speaker 1: a break and then dive back in, it's like all
Speaker 1: of my nerve endings are on overload. And what I
Speaker 1: recognize is that for me to be able to focus
Speaker 1: on what this service is that I am offering, what
Speaker 1: my purpose is on this planet for as long or
Speaker 1: as little time as we have left, I need to
Speaker 1: be able to steady myself. Right. You want to vibrate
Speaker 1: highly because you are aligned with the most tie. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be jittery and all over the place
Speaker 1: because you are taking on all of the negative and
Speaker 1: toxic energy that is around you. So for folks who
Speaker 1: have yet to try meditation or yoga or any type
Speaker 1: of stillness, I just recommend each and every day finding
Speaker 1: time to just be still and breathe. Whether you're listening
Speaker 1: to a guided meditation, or you have singing bowls that
Speaker 1: you that you play, or what have you, but just
Speaker 1: trying your best to put on a timer on your
Speaker 1: phone to sit still for two minutes and just breathe
Speaker 1: right and just ground because you will find that in
Speaker 1: these challenging times that that is going to be a
Speaker 1: skill that we are going to need to develop. That
Speaker 1: if you can find yourself grounded and centered in the
Speaker 1: midst of in the midst of chaos and conflict, that
Speaker 1: is going to be how we win, how we win internally,
Speaker 1: how we stay healthy, and how we continue to stay focused. That,
Speaker 1: dear friends, is your woke moment of wellness. That is
Speaker 1: it for me today, dear friends on Woke af as
Speaker 1: always power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.