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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Finally, the probable cost AFFI

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Speaker 1: David for the suspect in the brutal slayings of four

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Speaker 1: beautiful young Idaho University students has been unsealed. And what

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Speaker 1: a bobshell from DNA to sell phone records? It goes

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Speaker 1: on and on. Police now believe and reveal that they

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Speaker 1: say Brian Coburger stalked the four victims all the way

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Speaker 1: back until June, watching them at odd hours, late in

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Speaker 1: the night and early early in the morning hours very

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Speaker 1: similar to the times the murders took place. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's great this ascribe stories. Thank you for being with

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Speaker 1: us here at Fox Nation and series XE eleven. This

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Speaker 1: probably cause affidavit has also spun out more questions than answers.

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Speaker 1: For instance, take a listen to our friends at Keen five.

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Speaker 1: The first thing coming out of this is that one

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Speaker 1: of the surviving roommates in that home tells investigators she

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Speaker 1: was woken up by the sound of crying and saw

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Speaker 1: a masked man dressed in black walk right by her.

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Speaker 1: Another big takeaways that investigators say DNA was found on

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Speaker 1: a knife sheath found at the crime scene. A small

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Speaker 1: piece of DNA was found on there, and then DNA

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Speaker 1: taken from Coburger's family home in Pennsylvania was matched to

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Speaker 1: that knife sheath. They say with more than ninety nine

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Speaker 1: point nine percent accuracy ninety nine point nine nine nine

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Speaker 1: eight percent accuracy excluding all all other possibilities that DNA

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Speaker 1: came from anyone other than the killer's biological father. Again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: You've got an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we are learning now from a bombshell document. But

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Speaker 1: first I want to go to a very special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us, Laura Ingle, Senior correspondent Fox News. You can

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Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Laura Ingle. Laura, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. What we were just playing

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Speaker 1: from King five, really, let's the kind of a bag

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Speaker 1: regarding one of the roommates, Dylan, one of the roommates

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Speaker 1: that lived. Do you see the let me just say

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Speaker 1: inconsistency in her statement, not that she's inconsistent, but it's

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Speaker 1: inconsistency inconsistent with what we think we know, all right,

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Speaker 1: because we've been led to believe that she and another

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Speaker 1: roommate lived on the bottom floor with two roommates on

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Speaker 1: the second floor on the third floor. But if she

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Speaker 1: is on the bottom floor, Laura Ingle, then how did

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Speaker 1: she see the just all in black, five titner, taller, bushey, eyebrows,

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Speaker 1: face over nose and mouth athletic? How did she see

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Speaker 1: him go out the sliding class door if she's on

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Speaker 1: the bottom floor. You're right, I mean, this probable cause

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Speaker 1: Affidavid gives us these new chilling details of these ambush murders.

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Speaker 1: I mean things that we answered a lot of questions

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Speaker 1: that leaves a lot unanswered. Still, So the person identified

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Speaker 1: in the probable cause Affidavid only identified as DM that

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Speaker 1: we realize is one of the surviving roommates Dylan Morgenson

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Speaker 1: described three times in that night. Remember, police originally told

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Speaker 1: us that the two surviving roommates slept through it all,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the nine one one call didn't come

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Speaker 1: till just before noon that day that there was an

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Speaker 1: unconscious person at the residence. But now we see that

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Speaker 1: this surviving roommate came and caught or not contact, but

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Speaker 1: saw the suspect in the house, but first heard a noise,

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Speaker 1: thinking that it was maybe Kaylee playing with her dog,

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Speaker 1: then heard what sounded like crying. She opened her door

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Speaker 1: three times, and on that third time, she says that

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Speaker 1: she saw a suspect dressed head to toe and black,

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Speaker 1: wearing a mask only revealing bushy eyebrows, walk right by

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Speaker 1: her and then exit through the kitchen to the sliding

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Speaker 1: glass door and exit. That only makes sense if she

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Speaker 1: came upstairs from the ground floor, which is where we

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Speaker 1: heard she was sleeping, or there's another bedroom that we

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Speaker 1: maybe didn't know about that she was on that second floor.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge question, is going along with if she

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Speaker 1: encounters this person at between four and four thirty am,

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Speaker 1: why a nine one one call was not made until

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Speaker 1: nearly noon? But my question, Nancy, is this, remember the call,

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Speaker 1: was there is an unconscious person? Did the other roommate

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Speaker 1: did she pass out? Did she go into hiding? Did

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Speaker 1: she Was she in that frozen state of shock that

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Speaker 1: she said that that's what she She stood there in

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Speaker 1: shock when she saw the person. You can only imagine

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Speaker 1: how terrifying that would have been. But why that time gap,

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Speaker 1: That is one of the biggest takeaways of this probable cause, Affidavid,

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Speaker 1: Why that call was not made? You're a hearing the

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Speaker 1: voice of Laura Ingles, Senior correspondent with the fox, and

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Speaker 1: he's channel joining us. She has been all the ground

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Speaker 1: from the get go on this case, Laura, if you would,

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Speaker 1: would you go through and to me right now? This

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Speaker 1: is the main fly in the ointment. After hearing see

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Speaker 1: hearing about seeing reading that probable cause affidavit, would you

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Speaker 1: explain everything you know to this juncture about what the roommate,

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Speaker 1: Dylan Morgenson said, and we learned this from probable cause,

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Speaker 1: And remember there may be a lot more and there

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Speaker 1: may be a very easy explanation about what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: To answer this question, was she sleeping on the second floor?

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Speaker 1: Was she somewhere other than the bottom floor? Why didn't

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Speaker 1: she call line one one immediately? Did the defendants see her?

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Speaker 1: There's no indication that he did. So many questions, but remember,

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Speaker 1: a probable cause affidavit is literally think of a skeleton.

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Speaker 1: What all it's missing? The eyes, the eyebrows, the skin,

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Speaker 1: the face, the hair, everything. It's a bare bones outline

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Speaker 1: for a judge, just enough evidence so the judge will

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Speaker 1: sign and arrest warrant. Okay, they don't give the judge

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Speaker 1: the whole file that explains everything. They give a bare

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Speaker 1: bones affidavit. They get that warrant and bam they go

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Speaker 1: make the arrest. But for everybody else, I want to

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Speaker 1: hear Laura Ingle explain what we know right now about

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Speaker 1: d M. That's how she's referred to in the PC

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Speaker 1: affidavit still in Morgeson. What exactly did she say? Laura

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Speaker 1: ingles she told police and one other nugget here that

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Speaker 1: I didn't know either, and I don't think anybody did.

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Speaker 1: Is that Zanna Kernodle received a door dash order at

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Speaker 1: the residence at approximately four a m. That is new

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Speaker 1: we didn't and that she was awake according to her

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Speaker 1: phone record at approximately four twelve because her phone, Zanna Kernodle,

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Speaker 1: who lived on the second floor, would likely awake using

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Speaker 1: the TikTok app at approximately four twelve. Okay, who, Laura Angle?

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Speaker 1: You got? I mean jake it from the fire hydrant again?

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Speaker 1: Too much, she fasked, because I want to cross reference something.

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Speaker 1: His car, a white Elantra, was spotted by other surveillance

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Speaker 1: video in the King Road area between three twenty nine

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Speaker 1: and four twenty videos from the King Road area that

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Speaker 1: night or is it four to four twenty five? Actually

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Speaker 1: I think it's both. So what we're hearing right now

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Speaker 1: about the door dash and the tiktoks fit in perfectly

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Speaker 1: with the surveillance video from the King Road area. You

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Speaker 1: just have to lay on one layer after the next

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Speaker 1: to build this case. Okay, back to Laura Ingle, all right,

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Speaker 1: slow it down, lady, tell me again everything we know

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Speaker 1: about roommate d M. So, when we go to page

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Speaker 1: four of the probable cause AUF of David, DM stated

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Speaker 1: that she originally went to sleep in her bedroom on

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Speaker 1: the southeast side of this second floor. DM stated she

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Speaker 1: woke up at approximately four am by what she stated

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Speaker 1: sounded like then call this playing with her dog in

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Speaker 1: one of the upstairs bedroom, which was located on the

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Speaker 1: third floor. That is what I'm referencing. That is the

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Speaker 1: first time I have seen or heard that her bedroom

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Speaker 1: was on the second floor. Or wait a minute, could

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Speaker 1: she had just been sleeping there on a sofa? Sure,

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Speaker 1: But it says in the Affidavid he stated she originally

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Speaker 1: went to sleep in her bedroom on the southeast side

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Speaker 1: of the second floor. That's what it says on page

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Speaker 1: four at the top. DM stated she was awoken at

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Speaker 1: four am. She thought she heard Kaylee playing with her

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Speaker 1: dog upstairs. On the third floor. A short time later,

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Speaker 1: DM said she heard who she thought was gonsolv to

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Speaker 1: say something to the effect of quote, there's someone here.

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Speaker 1: A review of the record obtained from a forensic download

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Speaker 1: of then a Chronodal's phone showed this also could have

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Speaker 1: been Chronodal, as her cellular phone indicated she was likely

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Speaker 1: awake and using the TikTok app at approximately four twelve,

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if they're saying that that voice

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Speaker 1: could have been there's someone here coming from her phone. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: that is what she heard, and then she stayed to

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Speaker 1: police that she looked out of her bedroom but did

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Speaker 1: not see anything when she heard the comment about someone

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Speaker 1: being in the house. She stated she opened her door

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Speaker 1: for a second time when she heard what she thought

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Speaker 1: was crying coming from Chronodal's room. She said she heard

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Speaker 1: a male voice saying something to the effect of quote,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, I'm going to help you end quote. Then,

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Speaker 1: at approximately four seventeen, a security camera located on King Road,

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Speaker 1: which is immediately to the northwest of eleven twelve King Road,

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Speaker 1: picked up a distorted audio of what sounded like voices

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Speaker 1: of a whimper, voices or a whimper followed by a

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Speaker 1: loud sud. The dog can be heard barking numerous time,

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Speaker 1: starting at four seventeen am, that security camera which is

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Speaker 1: next door less than fifty feet from the west wall

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Speaker 1: of Pernodal's bedroom, and then, finally the most chilling part.

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Speaker 1: DM stated she opened her door a third time after

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Speaker 1: she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in

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Speaker 1: black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth

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Speaker 1: and nose walking towards her. Described the figure as about

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Speaker 1: five ten or taller male, not very muscular, but athletically built,

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Speaker 1: with bushy eyebrows. The mail walked past DM as she

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Speaker 1: stood in a quote frozen shock phase. The mail walked

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Speaker 1: toward the backsliding glass door. She then locked herself in

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Speaker 1: her room after seeing the mail. She did not recognize

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Speaker 1: the mail, and this investigators to believe the murderer left

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Speaker 1: the scene. You are hearing Laura Ingle, senior correspondent with

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Speaker 1: Fox and News Channel, breaking down what we know about

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Speaker 1: d M's testimony. What we know she saw, what she heard,

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Speaker 1: what she experienced the night her roommates were murdered. A

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation exclusive and international pop star stripped of human rights?

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Speaker 1: How does that happen easier than you think. Join us

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Speaker 1: for a deep dive into Britney Spears's conservatorship Trapped, streaming

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Speaker 1: now on Fox Nation Crime Stories with Nancy Grace straight

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Speaker 1: out to cherylton McCollum joining us found her and director

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Speaker 1: of the Coal Case Research Institute. You can find her

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Speaker 1: at coal Case Crimes Org. Cheryl, what do you make

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Speaker 1: of it? It sounds like to me that the murders

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Speaker 1: started on the third floor, which is really curious to

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Speaker 1: me because if you've got door dash coming at four,

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Speaker 1: she's on TikTok at four twelve on the second floor.

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Speaker 1: Use proper names so we all know she who go ahead,

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Speaker 1: start over, please okay? Well again, if you've got Dylan

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Speaker 1: hearing dogs barking here in the crime having this strange

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Speaker 1: person talking to her between four twelve and four seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and then you've got the car that we all need

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Speaker 1: to look for, the white Alentre four twenty leaving at

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Speaker 1: a high rate of speed, it sounds to me like

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Speaker 1: Dylan at four o'clock heard something on the third floor

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Speaker 1: that she thought was Kaylee playing with her dog. But again,

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Speaker 1: whatever was occurring on the second floor between four and

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Speaker 1: four twelve to me, is critical. So it sounds like

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Speaker 1: this started on the third floor with a straight out

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Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State

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Speaker 1: University and star of Body backs at Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of Cheryl's interpretation of the timeline.

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Speaker 1: There's one piece of evidence here that I think gives

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Speaker 1: an indication to this third floor. It started on the

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Speaker 1: third floor. Yes, it started on the third floor, and

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Speaker 1: the indication of that is a single piece of evidence,

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Speaker 1: which is, in fact, the sheath that was found adjacent,

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Speaker 1: according to the affidavit, to Megan's body in the bed

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Speaker 1: right there, and the fact that the knife was unsheathed

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Speaker 1: in that area and left behind gives an indication that

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Speaker 1: that's where it started. At least to me, that's a

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Speaker 1: place to begin. And then after it was done, these

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Speaker 1: homicides were committed on the third floor, the progression goes

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Speaker 1: down to the second floor where Ethan and Zenoor. Guys,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to take in everything that happened to

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Speaker 1: these young people that night. Think about it. My twins

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Speaker 1: just turned fifteen, these victims just a few years older

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Speaker 1: than them. In their beds no idea, what was to

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Speaker 1: befall them? And now we hear Brian Coburger had been

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Speaker 1: around them on their perimeter, over and over and over,

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Speaker 1: watching them, stalking them in the last hours. Coburger in court.

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Speaker 1: Take us our cut two four or five King five.

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger was in court. He was in an orange jumpsuit,

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Speaker 1: but was not in any type of handcuffs or shackles

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Speaker 1: that we could see. He just said a few brief

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Speaker 1: words responding to judge's questions. And here's what came out

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Speaker 1: of this morning's court appearance. He was formally charged with

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Speaker 1: four counts of murder one count of burglary. But the

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Speaker 1: big tape kaway is that, due to Idaho law, once

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Speaker 1: he makes that appearance in court, the probable cause documents

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Speaker 1: are then made public. That's essentially a paper that's written

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Speaker 1: by law enforcement laying out their case as to why

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Speaker 1: they believe this is their man in this murder investigation.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to a special guest joining us in addition

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Speaker 1: to Laura Ingele from Fox News, CC Moore is with

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Speaker 1: us and to the rest of the panel. I'm getting

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Speaker 1: too as quickly as I can, but please jump in

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Speaker 1: when you have a thought. CC Moore is, well, she's brilliant.

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Speaker 1: She's a chief genetic genealogist at Piramond Nano Labs. CC,

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Speaker 1: I want you to address this the first time I

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Speaker 1: use a statistic like this in court with DNA trying

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Speaker 1: to prove the case. It's, you know, an astronomical of

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Speaker 1: fantastical number. But the number is and this is what

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Speaker 1: we know, and anybody on the panel can backtrack on

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Speaker 1: this after CC answers, we know that that team that

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Speaker 1: was watching Coburger as he criss crossed the country to

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Speaker 1: go back home twenty five hundred miles from Idaho to

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Speaker 1: the Poconos with his dad in the launcher in question,

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Speaker 1: they had two tasks. One to keep eyes on Coburger

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Speaker 1: so the moment that arrest warrant issued, they could effect

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Speaker 1: an arrest when the time was right. This is what

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Speaker 1: was called an high highly risk arrest. It's called a

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Speaker 1: dynamic entry. When the person you're going to arrest could

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Speaker 1: really do anything, you gotta be ready keep eyes on

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Speaker 1: him and to secure DNA. Okay, And this is how

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Speaker 1: they did it. We learned from the affidavit. They watched

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger at his parents Pennsylvania home. They saw him

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Speaker 1: leave the home. Did you know this? Jack? And said,

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Speaker 1: they see him leave the home around four am in

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Speaker 1: the dark of the night. Take out the trash. Now,

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Speaker 1: I check out the trash this morning at five am.

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Speaker 1: But that's just me. But here's the kicker. I didn't

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Speaker 1: put it in the neighbor's guard in their dumpster. He did.

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Speaker 1: He took the family trash to the neighbors and put

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Speaker 1: the trash in their trash can. He also put some

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Speaker 1: in their own trash can later. So why would he

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Speaker 1: do that? Well, of course they went right over there

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Speaker 1: and got it out. And guess what. Ccmore, it proves

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Speaker 1: that the DNA on the snap button of that knife hilt,

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Speaker 1: the DNA found there, the male DNA compared to the

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Speaker 1: trash from the Coburger family home, all the male population

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Speaker 1: of the world's excluded to ninety nine point nine nine

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Speaker 1: nine eight percent. Could you explain that, CC, Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: these are numbers, as you know, that we see in court.

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Speaker 1: This is court admissible evidence, but it is also what

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Speaker 1: we see in traditional paternity tests. So anytime someone is

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Speaker 1: taking a paternity test, they're doing the exact same type

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Speaker 1: of comparison. That they did here, and those are the

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Speaker 1: numbers that are court admissible in those cases as well

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to establish paternity. But that is not

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Speaker 1: the final step. Once they have gotten that DNA to

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Speaker 1: that crime lab realized, Okay, this is a male DNA,

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Speaker 1: but it's not our suspect. This is the father of

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Speaker 1: our suspect. The next step would be after they get

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Speaker 1: that warrant for arrest and they get Brian and custody,

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Speaker 1: they want to get his DNA directly from him. That

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Speaker 1: is going to be the final step of the DNA

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Speaker 1: testing and evidence, and once they get that exact match

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Speaker 1: from Brian, they're going to have numbers similar to what

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Speaker 1: they quoted for that paternity test certainty, and then that

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Speaker 1: be set aside. So we're seeing multiple steps of the

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Speaker 1: DNA testing here, getting closer and closer, and the noose

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Speaker 1: is tightening. Cecmore, you're the brilliant genetic genealogist. There's got

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Speaker 1: to be a better way to say it than I

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Speaker 1: said it, because I had to really link the circuitous

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Speaker 1: sentence to try to explain this stat what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to say, and I would have to work on this

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Speaker 1: before I went to a Jerry Jack. Absolutely, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to say that it's ninety nine point nine to one

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Speaker 1: that this DNA comes from anybody but the killer's bio dad.

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Speaker 1: What's an easy way to say that. You're never going

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Speaker 1: to hear them say one hundred percent. That's just not

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Speaker 1: how the scientists present this type of evidence. They're saying

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Speaker 1: he cannot be excluded as the father or the parent

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Speaker 1: of the suspect of the person who left the DNA

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Speaker 1: behind mind at the crime scene. And so these numbers

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Speaker 1: are astronomical, Like you said, it is greater than the

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Speaker 1: number of people in the whole world many times over.

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Speaker 1: And so it's just their way of explaining the level

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Speaker 1: of confidence that they have in this. But it is

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Speaker 1: not going to be what it will be used in

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Speaker 1: court eventually. That's all they needed to get this arrest done.

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Speaker 1: And they may have more DNA evidence that they just

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Speaker 1: didn't list in the affidavit because it wasn't necessary. As

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Speaker 1: you said, they're just going to lay out what they

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Speaker 1: need to get that next step without showing all their cards.

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Speaker 1: Immediately joining me also, Brian, I Fit's given VP operations

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Speaker 1: USPA nation Wide Security. Brian, I want you to hear

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Speaker 1: something upst the creepy factor, if that's even possible. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen our cut two four seven Sebastian Robertson. The

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Speaker 1: suspect's phone was used at least a dozen a dozen

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Speaker 1: times near the suspects home ahead of the murders, and notably,

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Speaker 1: investigators say the phone was turned off at the time

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Speaker 1: of the killings. It's obviously an emotional time for the

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Speaker 1: family scene the defendant for the first time. This is

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the criminal justice system and the family

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Speaker 1: will be here for the long haul. The suspects phone

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Speaker 1: was used at least and I emphasize at least twelve

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Speaker 1: times near the victims home, beginning back in June up

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Speaker 1: until November thirteen, the day of the murders. Can you

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Speaker 1: just imagine that Fitzgibbons, Well, I'll tell you, Nancy, it's

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Speaker 1: similar to him leaving behind the sheaths that data exhaust

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Speaker 1: from these twelve trips that he took to the murder

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Speaker 1: site previously that they were able to team through that

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Speaker 1: historical site location information is going to be a key

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Speaker 1: part of this case, and it's important for everybody to

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Speaker 1: know that that cellular cellular analysis survey team the FBI

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Speaker 1: had that that data that they have is very precise,

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Speaker 1: very accurate. That look back period where they're able to

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Speaker 1: see Coburger's phone in the vicinity of the King King

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Speaker 1: Road residence is going to be tremendously impactful as this

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Speaker 1: thing moves forward. Joining me in addition to Laura Ingle,

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Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum, Joe Scott, Brian Fitzgibbons joining me right now,

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Speaker 1: Chris and Cec More. Chris mcdonnah is with US director

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Speaker 1: coal Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found them on

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Speaker 1: a YouTube channel, the interview room. Chris mcdonnah I want

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Speaker 1: to go to you because you've carefully examined all around

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Speaker 1: the victims King Road home. What do you make of

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Speaker 1: what Laura Ingle is telling us about the possibility at

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Speaker 1: roommate DM Dylan Morgenson was on the second floor, and

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Speaker 1: what do you make of the defendant being around their parameter,

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Speaker 1: their perimeter twelve times at very odd times of the

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Speaker 1: day and night. And significantly Jack is that he has

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Speaker 1: a cell phone on all the time, except he turns

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Speaker 1: it off a couple of hours at the time of

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Speaker 1: the murder or puts it on airplane mode. I love

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Speaker 1: it when they do that jump in. Well, a couple

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Speaker 1: of things jump out Nancy right away is his undergraduate

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Speaker 1: degree is in psychology and cloud based forensics, Joe, and

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Speaker 1: he was signing out for an internship with the local

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Speaker 1: PD to teach him about how to avoid you, how

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Speaker 1: criminals avoid detection in that. Something else that is really

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Speaker 1: bothering me is the fact that the police should now identified.

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Speaker 1: This homicide goes down between four am and four twenty

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Speaker 1: five am. The fact that these twelve contacts, which we

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Speaker 1: would call preincident behaviors, occur through the cell phone analysis

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Speaker 1: is exactly what we've been talking about here on this

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Speaker 1: panel and your show, Nancy. Is this guy spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time taking a look at his target set.

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Speaker 1: And that brings me then to Dylan. She this little

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Speaker 1: this child. There's one part of the affidavit that just

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Speaker 1: stuck out to me where the officer says she stood

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Speaker 1: in a frozen shock phase. What that told me writing

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Speaker 1: many affidavits through my career is this is just the

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Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg, and we're going to get those

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Speaker 1: explanations as to why there was a delay, as well

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Speaker 1: as the hideous statement by the suspect that she hears

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Speaker 1: it's okay, I'm going to help you. I did the

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Speaker 1: little boy in southern California in nineteen ninety eight, Matthew

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Speaker 1: checking in the bathroom, the suspect stood behind him and says,

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Speaker 1: you know me, I'm here to kill you. I got

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Speaker 1: chills when I read this statement from this witness, because

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine the shop, the fear, the terror

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Speaker 1: in her mind, and then later to find out there's

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Speaker 1: a footprint at her bedroom door from this suspect. So

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Speaker 1: did he come back in after she closed the door

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Speaker 1: to finish the deal or get the sheet that he

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Speaker 1: left behind on the third floor. Something you said, Chris mcdonna,

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Speaker 1: I think needs to be emphasized even more so. Everyone

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Speaker 1: is ready to put a linch mob on the roommatee

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Speaker 1: DM Dylan Morgenson for hiding in her bedroom. She's a child.

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Speaker 1: I think many of these victims were very sheltered. This

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Speaker 1: was the first time they had lived away from home.

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Speaker 1: And when she says, I was in a frozen shock state.

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Speaker 1: You referred to a case I know very well, the

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Speaker 1: case of a little boy in California named Matthew Checky.

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Speaker 1: As Zra call He was about nine years old and

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Speaker 1: he was at a family picnic reunion sort of deal

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Speaker 1: on the ocean, and he wanted to go to the

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Speaker 1: bathroom and his aunt said, I'll go, and they went

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Speaker 1: to the public bathroom. Everything was fine, and the aunt

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Speaker 1: stood outside the door, and in those few moments a

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Speaker 1: guy goes in and slashes Matthew's neck. Just never had

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Speaker 1: met him, didn't know anything about him, just went in

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Speaker 1: and murdered him. Matthew checky straight out to Dr Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshall's psychoanaist joining us out of Beverly Hills at doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com Doctor Bethany. Everyone is screaming the

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Speaker 1: PC doesn't show the motive. Well, it doesn't have to.

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Speaker 1: Number one and number two, that is not the state's

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Speaker 1: burden to figure out, Wow, why would you do such

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Speaker 1: a thing. We could talk about that at the water cooler.

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Speaker 1: The state duty is to get the riot person in

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Speaker 1: the right jurisdiction and try them according to the constitution

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Speaker 1: and get a true verdict. That is a state's duty.

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Speaker 1: They're not shrinks. But while we're on it, what do

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Speaker 1: you think. I'm beginning to wonder if this you know

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Speaker 1: he would do these odd experiments questionnaires and this was

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Speaker 1: just another one of his bizarre experiments with human guinea pigs.

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Speaker 1: Or was he so immersed in the world of murder

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Speaker 1: that it consumed him. I think you just explain the

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Speaker 1: whole motivation right there. He was immersed in the world

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Speaker 1: of murder. But let me roll out one simple fact here.

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Speaker 1: There are eight factors that are associated with serial killers

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Speaker 1: when you look at their history, you know, childhood abuse

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Speaker 1: and neglect, torturing animals. I could go on and on,

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Speaker 1: but one factor is voyeurism. Almost all serial killers stalk

430
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: their victims, and they are voyeurs, meaning they're like peeping

431
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: toms and they don't just look and you know, scroll

432
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram. They look and masturbate Nancy. Let's just

433
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: be honest here. They are in a sexual frenzy while

434
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: they are stalking their victims. That is it right there.

435
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: So the crime began last June. It wasn't just when

436
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: he was plunging a knife into his victims. That was

437
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: just the I don't know, the cherry on the ice

438
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: cream Sunday right there. That the crime started in June

439
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: when he selected these or victims victims selection is so

440
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: important to serial killers that that's where the excitement is, watching, stalking, looking, masturbating, peeping,

441
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: learning everything about the victims, inserting themselves into their crime.

442
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: And it was during this time that he put out

443
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: these strange, odd questionnaires, you know, wondering, you know, asking

444
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: even a prison population. You know, what were you thinking before,

445
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: during after the crime? How did you engage in victim selection?

446
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: Because he was engaging in victim selection. So what we

447
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: might find semen at the crime. I think what we're

448
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: going to find is all the sexual activity and motivation

449
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: occurred before the crime, and then killing them was just

450
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: like the final coup de gras. That was the end

451
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: of it. So this is a sad thing about this

452
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: case is the crime went on for months and months

453
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: and months and there was no way to detect it,

454
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: and there was no way to have the tected it.

455
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: We're just putting in the putting the pieces together after

456
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: the fact. And just a quick clement about the poor

457
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: roommate who saw him with the you know, the bushy

458
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: eyebrows and the athletic build. Yes, she's just a child.

459
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: She had no idea, she didn't know what we know now.

460
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: She had no way to put the pieces together. She's

461
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: just a little girl who shut her door and was

462
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: used to people coming in and out of that house

463
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: because remember this is a college town, you know, so

464
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: kids come in all hours of the day or night

465
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: partying and even just sitting up on their beds and talking.

466
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: And yes, she was scared, but it was four in

467
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: the morning. Of course she locked the door and went

468
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: to bed. That is no surprise. Time stories with Nancy

469
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: Grace with me high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former

470
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: FBI agent Dale Carson at Dale carsonal Law dot com. Dale,

471
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to Judge Meghan Marshall,

472
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: the lat of County Magistrate and our cut two fifty

473
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: a count two alleges that you committed the feeling offense

474
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: of murder in the first degree. It alleges that the

475
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: defense Bryan C. Coeberger Honor about November of thirteenth, twenty

476
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: twenty two and way Talk founding State of Idahoe, did

477
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: will flee, unlawflead, deliberately, with premeditation and with malice aforethought,

478
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: kill and murder Madison Mogan a human being by stabbing

479
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: Madison Mogan from which she died in violation of Idaho

480
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: eighteen four zero zero O one four zero zero two,

481
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: four zero zero three, and four zero zero four. The

482
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: maximum penalty for this offense, if you were deplete guilty

483
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: or be found guilty, is debt or imprisonment for life.

484
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: Do you understand yes to Dela Carson. I don't know

485
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: if you've ever worked to any death penalty cases, but

486
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: the law is very clear based on case precedent. It's

487
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: not in the Constitution, but it is a result of

488
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: the six Amendment right to counsel. When you have a

489
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: death penalty case and you are selecting your defense team,

490
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: the defense team, if the state is appointing lawyers, has

491
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: to be made up of at least one, if not more,

492
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: death penalty qualified lawyers. Explain those lawyers are especially trained

493
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: to deal with these kinds of cases and they have

494
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: very thorough training. It takes probably a year and a

495
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: half of additional training in order to represent people charged

496
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: with a capital offense and the offense that could end

497
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: up in the death penalty, and these cases take quite

498
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: a while to pursue and prosecute, and the defense team

499
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: also has the same requirement. So this is something If

500
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: he in fact goes to trial and he's not given

501
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: a deal to plead the life instead of the death penalty,

502
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: then the result could well be that the trial will

503
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: take a number of years to process. I don't know

504
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: if it's going to take a number of years, but

505
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,479
Speaker 1: I can easily see it taking a year. Remember this

506
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: is Idaho, not California or New York. This case is

507
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: going to go to trial. COVID is not a threat

508
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: at this juncture anyway to striking a jury. COVID has

509
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: put the skids on jury selection for years now. But

510
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: we're in a different phase. Gerars are being called to

511
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: the courthouse. We're not on hold because of COVID. Another thing.

512
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut two five to one. Again,

513
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: this is Judge Marshall speaking and mister Kolberger. Would you

514
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: like to represent yourself highral lawyer or see you if

515
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: you qualify for court appointing counsel. I have a court

516
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: appointed council or has reviewed your application for attorney at

517
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: public defense. I do find that you are indigent and

518
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: do qualify for court appointing council. I will appoint as

519
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: Taylor to recommend you in this case. So you may

520
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: wonder where all your tax dollars go to people like

521
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. Are we're going to pay for his death

522
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: penalty defense team. Now, before he even left Pennsylvania, a

523
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: defense lawyer was in place for him, and it is

524
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: defense attorney and Taylor. Now what del Carson said is

525
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. To achieve further death penalty qualifications to defend

526
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: or prosecute a case like that. The most common way

527
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: of getting that training is to sit a second or

528
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: third chair when another lawyer that's qualified tries a DP

529
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: case death penalty case. I'm pretty sure if you could

530
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: I get said that the mode of death will be

531
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: the needle in Idaho death by lethal injection. Straight back

532
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: out to Laura Ingle, senior correspondent joining us from Foxnez.

533
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: Laura again, thank you for being with us. Laura. What

534
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: do you believe will happen next? Well, you know, his

535
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: bail was denied in that court hearing, and then he'll

536
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: make his next appearance on the twelfth of this month,

537
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: So that is the next time we expect him back

538
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: in court. And as we continue to pour over this

539
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: advadavit that not only the probable cause affidavit when you

540
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: go back and you look at that Indiana State Police

541
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: bodycam footage of when he was stopped, and we've seen it.

542
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: We can't we can't help but study it because we

543
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: hear him and we see him. And if you look

544
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: closely at one of those traffic stops by the Indiana

545
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: State Police as he was traveling with his father from

546
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: the state of Washington to Pennsylvana where we were camped

547
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: out outside of the jail where he was held, you

548
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: can't help but notice there is a mark on his

549
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: right wrist. And we've looked at that closely. It looks fresh.

550
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: So I don't know what that means, but you know

551
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: that is another clue his demeanor, his voice. That is

552
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: something that will be, of course, heavily analyzed by law

553
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: enforcement and by all of us. Just Goot Morgan enjoining me,

554
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Just Scott. We also learned

555
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: that the defendant Coburger thoroughly clean his car on multiple occasions.

556
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: He was watched doing it. You think you got rid

557
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: of all the evidence? If so, why and if not why? No,

558
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: absolutely not, There's no way. I don't care how much

559
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: he thinks he cleaned it. He did not do a

560
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: sufficient job compared to what they're doing to it in

561
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: the garage right now at probably the FBI and in

562
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania at one of their evidence collection sites. They're taking

563
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: this car apart. Literally, they're taking the seats out, carpet, headliner, everything,

564
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: and they're going in with every possible agent that they

565
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: have at their disposal. And I don't mean FBI agents.

566
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: I'm talking about chemicals that they can a place that

567
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about luminol, maybe blue star. They're also going

568
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: through here with probably evidence vacuums as well, which goes

569
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: down to a different strata and pull things up that

570
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: this guy would have missed. Andre ucc Moore joining US

571
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: chief genetic genealogists at Paramont and the NLS was the

572
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: best way. I don't saying it's going to work. But

573
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: what do you expect to be the attack by the

574
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: defense on the DNA. Well, you know they're not going

575
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: to use anything that was found from investigative genetic genealogy.

576
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: If that is still in play, I think it is.

577
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: I think they just left it out of the affidavit

578
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: because it was just a lead generator. It's not evidence.

579
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: So they're going to focus on those astronomical numbers that

580
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned. They're going to say this DNA on this

581
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: sheath or whatever else they may have in their evidence

582
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: from DNA is from this person in the stats will

583
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: be something like one in three hundred trillion chants, and

584
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: then maybe they'll find some of the victims DNA and

585
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: all that work that they are doing on his car.

586
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: I was saying, how is the defense going to attack

587
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: the DNA analysis? Well, the defense is going to have

588
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: a difficult time with all of this evidence adding up.

589
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: Come on, Sacy, put it out there. They're gonna have

590
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: to pull an oja. They're gonna have to come up

591
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: with some crazy theory that the blood was planted, that

592
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: it was tampered with, that it has been somehow compromise.

593
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: That's the only way you can't find it with one

594
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: in three hundred trillion that would have been placed there.

595
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: There we go. See, didn't take long. You know what,

596
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: CC more I should have asked you that question, because

597
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: in order to catch a environment, you got to think

598
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: like a varmint, and you just don't think like a

599
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: defense lawyer. All right, let's talk about with a type

600
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: of DNA on that sheet in a nutshell nutshell that

601
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: DNA is likely to be touched DNA a few skin cells,

602
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: and they're going to say it could have been transferred,

603
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: it could have been there for a different reason, and

604
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily place him at the crime scene. You know,

605
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 1: say say, I only hope that's what they argue. They're

606
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: going to say this with a party house and kids

607
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: were coming in and out all the time, and Coburger

608
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: was likely a guest that or just some random person

609
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: they came into party with the kids, and that's when

610
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: the DNA was left on a knife. Okay, See, I

611
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: hope that's what they argue. Brian Fitzgivens with us A

612
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: VP of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security. Brian, I'm just

613
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: trying to you know, if you want to win, you

614
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: don't just put your case up. You lay awake at

615
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: night and you think, what are they going to do?

616
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: How are they going to try to attack me? And

617
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: you go through each witness and each piece of evidence

618
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: with a fine toothcoming you figure out what's my problem?

619
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: Where is my crack? How can I shoot them down

620
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: before they can kill me? Hey, I don't know if

621
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: you remember, do you remember Reagan came up with the

622
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: Star Wars defense, how we're going to shoot down missiles

623
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: that are coming toward the US, and everybody at the

624
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: time thought, wow, impossible, it is possible, and this is

625
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: how you want a trial. You shoot them down before

626
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: they can torpedo you. What is the defense going to do, Brian,

627
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: I think one of the pieces that they're going to

628
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: attack is a cell phone data. Not all cell phone

629
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: data is created equal. I think in this case, you know,

630
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: there was definitely a flex in the affidavit showing that

631
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: FBI team involved here in the precise locations they were

632
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: able to crab from Coburger in that historic data. But

633
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: that's a that's a definite that they will attack that.

634
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: In the past. It's certainly in some high profile cases

635
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: in the past cell phone data can be misleading. Um,

636
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: So I think that there's definitely going to be an

637
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: attack on that. Oh yeah, you're right, Brian Fitzki. Is

638
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: there going to be all over that cell phone data?

639
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: We wait as this case unfalls. Goodbye friend,