1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: I've been receiving a lot of questions lately since God 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: told me to put my account public. I had been hiding, 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: specifically from all of the issues that were surrounding my 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: life in Ohio. And the most common question that keep 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: murderer before you married him? This is The Piped and Massacre, 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode three. 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: The Alaska Wife and the Father figure Courtney Armstrong, a 9 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Laidecker and Jeff Shane. 10 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Wagner, whose voice we just heard taken from one 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: of her public social media posts, has been something of 12 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: an elusive figure in this case. After the massacre, we 13 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: know the Wagner family liquidated all their assets and moved 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: from Pike County to Alaska to start a new life. 15 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: For two years, father Billy Wagner, mother Angela Wagner, eldest 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 1: son George, and youngest son Jake, along with the daughter 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: he shared with victim, Hanname Rodin, lived a quiet and 18 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: unremarkable life. They attended a local church regularly, and it 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: was through the church that admitted murderer youngest son, Jake Wagner, 20 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: met his soon to be young wife, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, often 21 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: referred to as Beth, as a wide eyed, slim woman 22 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: in her twenties with light blonde hair and blue eyes. 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: She paints and was a Sunday school teacher. Elizabeth would 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: become the third young woman to step into the Wagner's web. 25 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Here Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa speaking recently to Judge Deering 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: and the Defense about the significance of Elizabeth Wagner and 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: her whereabouts. It appears she's been in hiding. Judge, we 28 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: would like to interview Beth, who is Jake's ex wife, 29 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: and we've not been provided her address. She's a key 30 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: States witness, we believe, and we have tried to locate her. 31 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: The State says people are in danger, but they have 32 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: not filed anything to preserve or present that issue. Elizabeth 33 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: Wagner basically fled for her life when she left to 34 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: Wagner home. I personally wrote a letter to the Social 35 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: Security Administration to her social Security number changed so that 36 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: she could change her identity and not the aggress of 37 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: potential harm. Understandably so the homicides had been committed by then, 38 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: and she was very much afraid for her life. So 39 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: that is the reason. It is because of potential danger 40 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: to this witness. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Elizabeth serves as 41 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: a very big piece to this puzzle. She's appeared on 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: several lists as a potential witness. It also speaks to 43 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: the fact that there is a pattern here. We were 44 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: able to track on Elizabeth on social media, and because 45 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: she's made her post public, were able to play you 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: some clips from those. The most common questions I keep 47 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a 48 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: murderer before you married him? And the answer is not really. 49 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: Because he came to our church in Alaska, which was 50 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: pastored by Caleb Cinerewski at the time, who was a 51 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: very young preacher. He had vouched for the Wagner family 52 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: and told the congregation that it was his understanding that 53 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: they had been troubled by news reporters, but that it 54 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: had been a slander and that the things were not true. 55 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: So that being the case, I was not exactly set up, 56 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: but in a way horridged to believe that Jake Wagner 57 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: was innocent, So I got to know him. I spent 58 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: a fair amount of time with him and his family, 59 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: saw him every week at church for several months, spend 60 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: a fair amount of time with his daughter, and it 61 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: just came to be that he and his family needed 62 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: to move south from Alaska back to the Lower forty eight. 63 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: I did not know the reasons for this at the time. 64 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: In retrospect, I have some personal opinions as to why 65 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: that may have been, But the main thing I just 66 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: wanted to communicate to people is that no, I was 67 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: not aware that Jake Wagner was involved so intimately with 68 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 1: these horrible, horrible killings, and that if I had known, 69 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: there's no way in a million years that I ever 70 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 1: would have married him. I was very, very, very upset 71 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: after all of these things went south so quickly. I mean, 72 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: I'd only just got married and then I find out 73 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: that my husband is not only not who I thought 74 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: he was, but literally a person's worst nightmare. So I 75 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: had to move three times since then, and I am 76 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: not allowed to speak publicly or in private about the 77 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: murders or I would face personal consequences from the legal 78 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: system of Ohio. This was a woman who was by 79 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: all accounts, fearing for her life. Can you imagine being 80 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: a young girl living in Alaska you meet a guy 81 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: through your pastor marry into the family who you now 82 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: know to be a family of killers. There was one 83 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: thing that always struck us, and we weren't really able 84 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: to talk about it too deeply in season two, is 85 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: that on August fifteenth, twenty eighteen, three months before the 86 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: Wagner family was in fact arrested, Elizabeth went to the 87 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: Lace and Pike County and filed a report of threats 88 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: and harassment and that her address at that time was homeless. 89 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: So that just offers a little insight into the life 90 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: that Elizabeth was living. Special Prosecutor Angie Caneppo was recently 91 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: in court detailing the horrific situation Elizabeth Wagner was in 92 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: when she lived with her husband, murderer Jake Wagner, Jake's 93 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: brother George, and their parents, Angela and Billie. It's a 94 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: story that might sound chillingly familiar given what we now 95 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: know about the Wagner's mistreatment of George's ex wife and victim, 96 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: Hanname Rodin, Jake's ex girlfriend. In regards to Elizabeth Wagner, 97 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: she ultimately knew in Bastill, Ohio with them and lived 98 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: with the defendant and his entire family. Again, they'll see 99 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: this same thing happening over and over again, defending his family, 100 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: controlling every movement of the list at Wagner, including anat 101 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: limited to demanding all of her personal identifying information, her passwords, 102 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: et cetera, and downloading tracking applications on the police one 103 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: of her devices, specifically her phone, so when she would 104 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: leave the residents to go to library to apply for 105 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: a job. And this all this information we have on 106 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: the wire conversation between George and Jay on the night 107 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: of their wedding, Jake asked for all of her identifying information, 108 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: including passwords to any emails, social media, etc. I would 109 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: note that was before they consummated their marriage, So that 110 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: is how pervasive this amount of control is. There's a 111 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: few important things to note in what Angie Kneppa just 112 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 1: laid out. The first is how Elizabeth is the third 113 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: woman who entered the inner circle of the Wagner family 114 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: to end up under their complete control and running for 115 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: her life. The second is a reference Kneppa makes to 116 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: the courted wire conversations. The prosecution is obtained between George 117 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner. It begs the question of what else 118 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: will be revealed in soon approaching court proceedings. The accusations 119 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth again, they accused her of being mildly physically 120 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: abusive with the child and accused her of poisoning them 121 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: with food. And basically it was when miss Wagner accused 122 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: her of poisoning them with food that is when the 123 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: alarms went off in her head because she was privy 124 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: to conversations that they were having about how Tabitha had 125 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: done that. As a reminder, Tabitha is George Wagner's ex 126 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: wife who lived with the family before they took custody 127 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: of her son away. You know, she was led to 128 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: leave that Tabitha was this terrible accusan. But when she 129 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: started being accused of things that they had told her 130 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: they accused Tabitha of, she became very concerned for her 131 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: well being. Jake and Angela Wagner confronted her in the kitchen. 132 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: This was the kitchen is the source of family meetings 133 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: typically amongst the Wagners, and they confronted her because Angela 134 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: had reported to Jake that the child in question had 135 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: claimed used by Beth Wagner, and Beth adamantly denied this, 136 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: And I would note the record that the child never 137 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: repeated that to anybody else, including Jake. But Jade didn't 138 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: tell miss Wagner that if he ever learned that she 139 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: hadn't in fact abused this child, that he would beat 140 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: her with a bat, and that if he didn't do it, 141 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: then his brother George Wood, and if his brother George didn't, 142 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: then Billy Wood, and that would be the right thing 143 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: to do. You want to talk about gas lighting in 144 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: a situation. So Elizabeth, living now with the Wagners, is 145 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: hearing accusations from the Wagners about previous women, about them 146 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: being bad and that they were poisoning the children. Now 147 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: with her, they create these allegations saying that Elizabeth is 148 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: poisoning the children. They're creating these stories and rumors amongst 149 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: each other and then threatening her. If it's true me, 150 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, your husband is going to beat you with 151 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: a bat. And if not me, my older brother George, 152 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: he's going to beat you with a bat. Oh wait, 153 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: if not him, my dad, Billy Wagner is going to 154 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: beat you with a bat over a rumor that they're 155 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: starting within their own little weird bubble. I mean, we're 156 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 157 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: These alleged threats against Elizabeth Wagner did not only extend 158 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: to her, but to her family as well. Tabitha, George 159 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: Wagner's ex wife and mother of his child, cut ties 160 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: with the Wagners. She ran in the night from their property, 161 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: afraid for her life. We sadly know what happened to 162 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: Hannah may Roden. Finally, Jake's now ex wife, Elizabeth was 163 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: caught living the same nightmare. While Elizabeth was only with 164 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner for a short time, she met several relatives 165 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: and friends in the Wagner's in a circle. Here's Jeff 166 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: speaking with an anonymous Wagner friend and Angela's half brother, Chris. 167 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: What do you make of Elizabeth? She's a little bit 168 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: out there. I think she was indullible. I don't know. 169 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: She was easy for Jake to target, I think. And 170 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: what about in Alaska Jake's wife, Elizabeth? Did you ever 171 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: hear of her or meet her or talk to her? 172 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: That girl was weird, just strange. Did she come back 173 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: to Ohio with them from Alaska. Yeah, do you know 174 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: what happened to that relationship? Oh Ny split up. I 175 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: don't know exactly why. This is our anonymous Wagner source 176 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: on what she thought about Elizabeth, specifically how living with 177 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: the entire Wagner family might have impacted her. Did you 178 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: know Elizabeth Jake's wife. I didn't know her super well. 179 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: I met her, I think three times, and she was 180 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: a little odd. If you ever watch her things she 181 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: has on like what's that thing called TikTok? Stuff that 182 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: she said on there and by all means like said 183 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: I was against it, saying that they didn't kill no 184 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: one and then supposed me they didn't like Angela was 185 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: a bit you know, and told her what to do 186 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: and you know, stuff like I Yes, I definitely think 187 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: Angela would rule stuff like that with her, especially living 188 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: under her house, especially with the kids. And I definitely 189 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: think whenever Elizabeth started saying that Sudds was calling her 190 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: mom and stuff like that, I think Angela is the 191 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: one that took that way to heart. She didn't like that. No. 192 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: SuDS is the nickname those close to the child used 193 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: for Angela's granddaughter. Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden's daughter. Angela 194 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: obviously was a grandma, But I think she played it 195 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: off more if that she wanted people to think that 196 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: sudden was her kids. Also, if you ever was around them, 197 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: that's just the way it put off. And what was 198 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: your first impression of Elizabeth The first time we met her, 199 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: she was like happy, go lucky and talked and played 200 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: with the kids and everything seemed cool. And then the 201 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: next time it was like she was just set in 202 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: the truck and they was here for like three or 203 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: four hours working on trucks, and she just sent in 204 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: the truck the whole time and didn't want to talk 205 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: to nobody. It was like she didn't want to be here, 206 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: you know, she didn't want to be in Ohio. You know, 207 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: she would have rather not came down here. And then 208 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: when she did, she knew she made the mistake of 209 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: coming here. I don't know why or what. Besides, like 210 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: I said, I think Angela rolled her like one of 211 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: her kids, you know, That's what I think it was. 212 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: I think it was more Angela on her than Jake 213 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: would have been anything like that. Jeff recently spoke with Wendy, 214 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: an old family friend of the web Wagner's about being 215 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: invited to Jake and Elizabeth's wedding. According to Wendy, before 216 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: his arrest, Killer's son Jake Wagner was out and about 217 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: in public, seemingly unbothered. They have this little place called 218 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: the Nail Chick here, and they did this little cute 219 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: fair that had animals and pig races and just a 220 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: few small rides and stuff, and we just kind of 221 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: all ran into each other and sat down and started 222 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: talking about how everybody was, how everybody's been, because we 223 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: haven't seen each other really since we were kids. Wow. 224 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: And so you're up in Alaska. Yes, Like we all 225 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: just kind of like sit back and think, like it's 226 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: kind of weird that you moved to Alaska. I didn't 227 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: expect to run into them there because the Nail Chick 228 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: from where they lived was kind of like an hour 229 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: and a half or so, So I wasn't expecting to 230 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: run into them there. So when we did, I was nice. 231 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: I said hello, you know, we talked a few minutes. 232 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: But I mean that's really the only interaction I've had 233 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: with them that in him inviting us to the wedding. 234 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: Is Elizabeth there with him? If I remember correctly, she 235 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: was with him and George and their mom. That's who 236 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: all was there. While they're speaking to me. I never 237 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: really met his girlfriend, so I'm assuming that's who that was, 238 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: the female that was with him. Can you seem normal? 239 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: Everything with the whole family was kind of like talking 240 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: to normal people. Nothing ever came up about the situation, 241 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: nothing crazy ever came from it. And you didn't go 242 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: to the wedding. I did not. Why not? I don't 243 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: know when they moved here, And like I said, in 244 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: the back of my head, I kind of like was like, 245 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if they're involved. I don't involved myself with that. 246 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: I stayed away as far as possible to. Whenever they 247 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: invited me, I was like, oh, you know, that's cool, congratulations, 248 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: but then like hung up the phone, was like, no, 249 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: not going to that. Angela Wagner's role has centered on 250 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: the narrative that she was one pulling the strings, the 251 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: overbearing mother, obsessed with being the ultimate matriarch. But what 252 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: if everyone has it wrong and Billy was calling the shots. 253 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: We last saw fifty one year old Billy Wagner in 254 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: court in February of twenty twenty two. He's facing twenty 255 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: two criminal charges and connection to the killings. At six 256 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: foot six and two hundred and seventy four pounds, Billy 257 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: is an imposing figure, but his hulking stature wasn't the 258 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: only thing that got our attention. In November of twenty eighteen, 259 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: this was his first court appearance regarding the murders, and 260 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: he entered the room with a scowl on his face 261 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: and several noticeable tattoos. The first is on his left arm, 262 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: and this tattoo is described by the Anti Defamation League 263 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: as three interlocking triangles, known as the Knot of the Slain. 264 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: It's of Norse origin. On his right hand, between his 265 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: point of finger and thumb was also a scorpion tattoo. 266 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: Some think the eight segmented scorpion on Billy's trigger finger 267 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: represents the eight rodent victims. It's important to note that 268 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: George and Billy have pleaded not guilty and have not 269 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: yet stood trial for the killings. Here's Katie Studios producer 270 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: Chris Graves speaking with death investigator Joseph's Got Morgan, Stephanie 271 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: and Jeff. Now. I think that people look at Billy 272 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: and my gosh, you know when you see him walking 273 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: into a courtroom. I think that he certainly makes lesser 274 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: men shake. I mean, he is an imposing presence that 275 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: folks have not seen this guy on camera. Do yourself 276 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: a favor and take a look at this guy's just 277 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: physical dimensions, lumbering forth into that courtroom, massive hands, these 278 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: kind of odd tattoos that he's got on his body. 279 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: You know, he's just a big, big man, imposing. You know, 280 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: he is the kind of guy you would not want 281 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: angry at you. So does that hulk that he presents us? 282 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: Does that mean that he's not capable of planning something 283 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: like this? Is it the reverse? Everybody's money has been 284 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: on Angela? How do we know? You know, we have 285 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: heard now from multiple people about how Billy Wagner would 286 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: grind his teeth and it's such a scary visual. Actually 287 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: thought about this when I drove out by the Wagner 288 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: home place. You know, there was a story that came 289 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: up that every time Billy would get angry, his way 290 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: of apologizing to angel was a golden buy her a basket. 291 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: That her walls in her kitchen were decorated with these baskets. 292 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: And wow, isn't that something when you think about that, 293 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: you know, And can you imagine being a family member, 294 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: even a peripheral family member, that walks into the place 295 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: and the first thing you're gonna do is to look 296 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: up on the wall and see if Angel has added 297 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: another basket, you know, because anything that she says or 298 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: does you know the billy's gonna fly out with the handle, 299 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: makes it gonna break something. I don't know. I don't 300 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: know what the family dynamic is, but I tell you this, 301 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: you've kind of got this material representation of it in 302 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: these things. He would buy and she'd put him up 303 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: on the wall. Sure, but you also look at him 304 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: and you know he's only had a seventh grade education, 305 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: and would someone like that be capable of executing a 306 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: plan of this difficulty? Just to play Devil's Advocate, I'll 307 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: play that game. And you know, we can talk about 308 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: this being nuanced intellectually, I guess on one level. But 309 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: when you see the savagery and the brutality that was 310 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: exacted from a rodent family, I don't know is that 311 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: a possibility could he be controlled at that level? Or 312 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: did he sit down and he had a few lucid 313 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: moments and he put this master plan together and he's 314 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: telling everybody what to do. I don't know. Hopefully that's 315 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: going to come out of court. And that's what's so 316 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: compelling about this, because we've got the brutality that's well documented. 317 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: Things are hidden from us at this point in time 318 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: for a good reason. It brings me back to the 319 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: overarching theme here, and that is who's calling the shots. 320 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: Didn't surprise you that it happened to be Jake and 321 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: Angela that took the pleas out of the four of them. 322 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: It's not surprising to me that those two would kind 323 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: of meld together, if you will. And it's going to 324 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: be Billy and George against the world at this point time. 325 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: I hope that they've got sufficient defense counsel because it's 326 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: going to be a hard hill for them to climb. 327 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. In speaking with people 328 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: who knew the Wagner family, we learned about the dynamics 329 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: in the family, and George and Billy seemed to butt 330 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: heads quite a bit. We also learned that there were 331 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: sort of alliances within this cult like family. Angela and 332 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: Jake were described to us as very close and often together, 333 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: and on the other side of that George and Billy 334 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: were often very close and together, and people went out 335 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 1: of their way to say that Angela and George did 336 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: not spend a lot of time together, and Jake and 337 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: Billy did not spend a lot of time together. So 338 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear that despite being on the outside 339 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: a very tight for some, there were some cracks in 340 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: that and some kind of power dynamics going on behind 341 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: closed doors. And to that end, there had also been 342 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: rumors that accused dad Billy Wagner was possibly not the 343 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: father of youngest son, Jake Wagner. We did, in fact 344 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: go down that rabbit hole and pulled records and in 345 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: fact pulled Jake Wagner's birth certificate and both Billy Wagner 346 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: and Angela Wagner are in fact listed as his parents, 347 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: So we put that rumor to rest. But again in 348 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: the town it spoke to sort of an alliance between 349 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner and her youngest son, Jake Wagner, and maybe 350 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: how Billy Wagner and George Wagner the eldest son, that 351 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: they were a fractured family. Here again is Angela Wagner's 352 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: have brother Chris, speaking to Jeff about what he thought 353 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: of Billy Wagner and Angelo Wagner's relationship. How would you 354 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: describe Angela and Billy's relationship from when I was around it? 355 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: He treated her like shit and I mean just talked 356 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: to her like she less. And Third, Billy continues to 357 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: proclaim his innocence and his attorneys have requested the death 358 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: penalty be dismissed before the trial. This request has been 359 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: denied in that hearing Judge Randy During ruled that Billy 360 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: Wagner's trial will start no later than October thirty first, 361 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Based on our research, Billy Wagner has 362 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: been in trouble with the law before. Charges include more 363 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: serious ones like tampering with evidence and receiving stolen property 364 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. There are also some minor 365 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 1: offenses such as speeding, driving without mud flaps on his truck, 366 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: and voting without flotation devices. It should be noted that 367 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: the last charge happened in Alaska, so post Road and murders. 368 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner was enjoying some time on the lake. Frederica 369 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: Wagner is Billy Wagner's mother. Patricia worked for many years 370 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: for Frederica Patricia was also accused murderer George Wagner's former 371 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: mother in law. All that to say, Patricia has many 372 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: in roads to the Wagner's Frederick again staying Angela, she 373 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: always believed that Angela married Billy for the money. She 374 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: thinks Angela got bregnant just to trap Billy so she 375 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: could get to Wagner money. Do you think Angela felt that? 376 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: And Angela could tell that Frederica did not like her 377 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: and not approve of her. Oh yeah, they never did 378 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: get along, I know you. One time she worked for 379 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: freder Quinn. I don't know what all that was over. 380 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: Patricia's relationship with Frederica was a working one, but the 381 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: two were very close and Patricia got intimate insights into 382 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: the Wagner family's life, especially Frederica and her late husband, 383 00:23:53,359 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: Bob Wagner Billy's parents. What was Frederica's husband like? He 384 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: was a sweetheart. He didn't cause no trouble for nobody. 385 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: He stayed on the farm except for him, Govid Cracker's 386 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: a good grocery shopping. He stayed on the farm and 387 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: worked with him horses until past dark, and Frederica would 388 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: get on to him all time, but working too long 389 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: and too hard, especially the older he got. And we're 390 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: sitting there and they run one day and he said 391 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: the sweetest thing, and I'll never forget it. But sitting 392 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: there watching the horse races, and Frederica came in. She said, 393 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: talk to Bob, and Jesus, oh, you don't want to 394 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: seem old. What I can say. He looked her, and 395 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: he's a sweetheart. When I look at you, I see 396 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: you the day I met you. Jesus gettable. And she's 397 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: been down to give him a big old kids And 398 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: that was the sweetest thing I'd ever seen in my life. 399 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: I'm thankful that Bob had Alzheimer's there when all this happened, 400 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: so he didn't really know what was going on. And 401 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: it kills me that Frederick has to go through it. 402 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: Frederica and Bob Wagner had a long marriage and worked 403 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: on a horse farm. They owned the Flying w In 404 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: addition to raising prize ponies, the Wagner's also bred dogs. 405 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: It seems a wholesome living, but there have been some 406 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: rumors of Wagner's misdeeds. Turns out that Frederica Wagner, often 407 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: known as the pious head of the hard working Wagner 408 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: family was umbrelled with some questionable dealings on behalf of 409 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: her son, Billy. We know that Billy and Angela Wagner 410 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: were convicted of receiving stolen property in twenty twelve. The 411 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: specifics of the following story are Patricia's recollection of events. 412 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: Here again Patricia speaking with Stephanie and Jeff. A lot 413 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: of Billy's pads. Billy's gotten in trouble and gone to 414 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: jail board do you know for what? Yeah, they would 415 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: pull up to stop and look Billy's rig up to 416 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: a drailer and take off with it in whatever goods 417 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: we're inside. They would sail and I got bust to 418 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: board a couple of times Billy had the rig and 419 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: what got him god is but they sold a truckload 420 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: of boots and they took them to the slea market 421 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: sell them. And the police said they would them gotten 422 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: caught if they just sold the boots by themselves. That 423 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: they sold the boots in the box which has tracking 424 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: numbers on them. To what got them caught. Billie Wagner 425 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: and Angela went to jail over that, and a couple 426 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: of other people had gone to jail with them because 427 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: they were in on it too. We've heard versions of 428 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: this story. The only reason I know is because I 429 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: was sent to the jail house in Pike County to 430 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: put money on their books. That's the only reason I know. 431 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: So it's not here say for me put money on 432 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: their books. That means like for commissary and phone calls 433 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: and stuff. Yeah, who called you and asked you to 434 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: do that? My boss? Oh Frederica, okay, got it. And 435 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: if money wasn't really an issue, because we've always heard 436 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: too that, oh, well, the Waxman's family's prestigious and they 437 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: have money, they have money, and yes, Frederick it does 438 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: have some old money. But most of the money that 439 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: Fredericka has she worked herself to the bone, her and 440 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: her husband boat. But Billy was spoilt. He got everything, 441 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: and Bob would get so mad that Frederica would hand 442 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: Billy money like you wouldn't believe it, just handed to 443 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: it because if she didn't get threw a fit. So 444 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: she's builty. It's just one faure after another with him. 445 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: But it breaks my heart to see her and her 446 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: daughter and her other son go thruthian. And my honest 447 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: opinion is, yeah, part of it may have been behind 448 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: but there's something greater behind it. They've drug other family 449 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: members in, cousins and girlfriends and brothers. To me, it 450 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: maybe have something to do with that one little girl, 451 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: But to me, there's a bigger reason. You can't tell 452 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: me that they walked in and killed eight people over 453 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: one child. I'm never gonna believe that. I don't know 454 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: why they did it, or if they did it for 455 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: somebody else. I don't know that Between man God, whoever 456 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: they did it for. Who that may be is not 457 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: clear to us. As we await upcoming child dates, more 458 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: evidence continues pouring out. According to this document, if it's true, 459 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: George only goes along at the last minute to protect 460 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: Jake from his own father. The document Anjeanette is referring 461 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: to is Motion eighty filed by George Wagner's defense attorneys. 462 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: What's going on when big brother thinks I gotta go 463 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: along to protect my little brother because dad might kill him, 464 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't really kind of make you think who is 465 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: calling the shots in this operation. The state made a 466 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: deal with the devil basically anyway says we made a 467 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: deal with the devil. Unfortunate in this case, well, it 468 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: seems that mister Wagner drives semitruck for a living and 469 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: the government put a bug in it. They're saying, basically, 470 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: the cops were doing things to try to egg these 471 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: people on so that they would say things on wiretaps. 472 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: It's called tickling the wire. It's very common they put 473 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: information out and then see if anything's come of it. 474 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: I think they use this in mob cases and stuff 475 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: like that. I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, 476 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: what on earth could be so damning in these recordings. 477 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: I guess George in the scenario was ready to die 478 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: for his brother. That would be one hell of a 479 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: car ride, wouldn't it. More on that next time. If 480 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other 481 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: hit series Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday 482 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, 483 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes 484 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, 485 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, 486 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston, Audio mixing by Ken Novak, The 487 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. 488 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 489 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.