1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Imagine there's a place in our world where the 2 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: known things go. Corridors lined with lockers filled with textbooks 3 00:00:29,596 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: and backpacks and snacks. That place. This place is a 4 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: high school. Sneakers skidding on freshly waxed linoleum floors, florescent 5 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: lights gleaming overhead, the gabble of gossip flirting in the 6 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:51,436 Speaker 1: hallway and down this hallway a history class. What is 7 00:00:51,436 --> 00:00:56,796 Speaker 1: a fact? Start there amongst your table, and how do 8 00:00:56,836 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: you know when something is true? Discuss take a few minutes. 9 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:05,716 Speaker 1: Welcome to the last archive, the show about how we 10 00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:08,316 Speaker 1: know what we know and why it seems lately hard 11 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 1: to know anything at all. I'm Jill Lapoor. This episode, 12 00:01:12,356 --> 00:01:15,236 Speaker 1: we're going back to school to learn how to know 13 00:01:15,796 --> 00:01:20,916 Speaker 1: what's true. Tell me be brave? Now, what's a fact? 14 00:01:21,476 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 1: Who wants to go first? Start me? What's a fact? 15 00:01:30,156 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: Benji Cohen teaches world history at Cambridge Ringe in Latin School, 16 00:01:34,356 --> 00:01:38,916 Speaker 1: a public high school in Massachusetts outside Boston. So we're 17 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:42,996 Speaker 1: gonna watch it, being like three minutes long. You have 18 00:01:43,196 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 1: in front of you the transcript of it to use afterwards. 19 00:01:47,796 --> 00:01:50,516 Speaker 1: One day last winter, he started his class by playing 20 00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 1: a campaign ad, actually a spoof of a campaign ad 21 00:01:54,716 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 1: in which a generic political candidate says meaningless things over 22 00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: stock footage and sappie music. Hello, it's me candidate for president. 23 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:10,756 Speaker 1: A person with a face, a person whose hand gestures 24 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: are definitely not weird. Here are a bunch of different 25 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 1: people matched with career signifiers like a helmet, a uniform, 26 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 1: or a stethoscope on the off chance that you identify 27 00:02:22,876 --> 00:02:25,276 Speaker 1: with one event. And here's a guy with a belly, 28 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:28,476 Speaker 1: a beer, and a hard hat. I talked to this guy. 29 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 1: I think the kids in mister Cohen's class thought this 30 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 1: was pretty funny, laugh out loud funny. They got it 31 00:02:35,356 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: right away. They'd seen political ads their whole lives, and 32 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:43,316 Speaker 1: they get oh my god, they so get irony. What 33 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 1: is this ad arguing? What's it actually say? What aesthetic 34 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:50,276 Speaker 1: choices stand out to you? What has it revealed to 35 00:02:50,316 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 1: you about America politics? And are there any factual claims here? 36 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,316 Speaker 1: And if so, what are they take two minutes talk 37 00:02:56,356 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: to another? I was there in Benji Cohen's class to 38 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 1: witness a thought experiment brought to life, an attempt in 39 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: this our season of solutions to confront up close Mano Amato. 40 00:03:07,476 --> 00:03:11,916 Speaker 1: The problem of political missin formation. These kids know their 41 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:14,596 Speaker 1: country is facing a lot of problems, but a lot 42 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: of the election talk they hear sounds more like a 43 00:03:16,836 --> 00:03:21,796 Speaker 1: fight in the hallway. You lie, No, you lie. Politicians lie, 44 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:24,796 Speaker 1: They tell big lies. This has been true for as 45 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:28,676 Speaker 1: long as there have been politicians, and it'll be true forever. Well, 46 00:03:28,676 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 1: I'm not a crook. I experimented with marijuana a time 47 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 1: or two, and I didn't like it and didn't inhale. 48 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:40,036 Speaker 1: Campaign ads are full of misrepresentations. Attack ads are the worst, 49 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: but even straight up pro candidate ads can be outrageously deceptive, 50 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: and entire political campaigns, even campaigns for the White House, 51 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:52,756 Speaker 1: can be lost over these ads. Considered the time in 52 00:03:52,916 --> 00:03:57,156 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight when supporters of George hw Bush aired 53 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 1: an ad attacking Massachusetts Governor Michael Ducaucus for being weak 54 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:04,756 Speaker 1: on crime. Duconcas not only opposers of the death penalty, 55 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:08,196 Speaker 1: he allowed first degree murderers to have weekend passes from prison. 56 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:13,276 Speaker 1: Was Willie Horton. The ad was deceptive, but it was 57 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:17,036 Speaker 1: also effective. It's often cited as a major contributing factor 58 00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:21,516 Speaker 1: for Ducaucus losing his election. Or think about how in 59 00:04:21,556 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, when one ad all but accused 60 00:04:24,476 --> 00:04:28,196 Speaker 1: Vietnam veteran John Kerry of treason. He betrayed us in 61 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: the past, how could we be loyal to him now? 62 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 1: This was not true, but it helped sink Carry's campaign. 63 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:38,636 Speaker 1: To say that this has been going on for a 64 00:04:38,676 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 1: long time, isn't to say that it isn't especially terrible 65 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 1: right now, because it is terrible. There's no real way 66 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: to answer lies and misrepresentations, and political ads no effective 67 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:53,236 Speaker 1: way to fact check them. In the broadcast era of 68 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:56,956 Speaker 1: broadcast radio and television, the FCC created a set of 69 00:04:57,036 --> 00:05:01,516 Speaker 1: rules for political ads. Those rules mean that broadcasters just 70 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:04,676 Speaker 1: can't cannot refuse to air a political ad if it's 71 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 1: been made by the candidate's own campaign. You might remember 72 00:05:08,436 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 1: last season when we had a whole episode about a 73 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 1: thing called the Fairness Doctrine, an FCC rule that made 74 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 1: it so television and radio stations had to reflect all 75 00:05:18,236 --> 00:05:21,756 Speaker 1: points of view. But that rule ended in nineteen eighty 76 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 1: seven with the end of the Fairness Doctrine and the 77 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: rise of talk radio and partisan cable television, an era 78 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:31,436 Speaker 1: where you get stuff like this and I rescue feminazis 79 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 1: here's the deal. What I have Here is a copy 80 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump's tax returns. We have his federal tracks 81 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 1: return for one year, for two thousand and five. What 82 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 1: we have are these two pages. People have tried to 83 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: bring back the fairness doctrine, but it never works. It's 84 00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: not coming back. And even though this is a season 85 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 1: of solutions, I have to be honest broadcast television and radio, 86 00:05:53,996 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: cable television, I don't see a solution there when it 87 00:05:56,876 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 1: comes to horrible political ads. The real fight, and the 88 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: real possibility too, is with social media. The FCC doesn't 89 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:11,836 Speaker 1: control political advertisements on social media, No central governing body does. 90 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: There are no rules except the ones social media companies 91 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:19,036 Speaker 1: make for themselves. Wild West to all that, and usually 92 00:06:19,076 --> 00:06:21,236 Speaker 1: I would say this is a bad thing. The Internet. 93 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 1: It loves lies, It thrives on lies, conspiracies, Lies get clicks, 94 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: Clicks make money. You know all about it. The thing 95 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 1: about these companies is they can still change how they work. 96 00:06:32,316 --> 00:06:35,436 Speaker 1: They could still change how they handle political ads. They 97 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,036 Speaker 1: could make a new version of the fairness doctrine something better, 98 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 1: not a doctrine, but a practice. That's how I ended 99 00:06:42,596 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 1: up in Benji Cohen's history classroom at Cambridge Ringe and Latin, 100 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 1: because who knows social media better than teenagers. Also, I'd 101 00:06:52,196 --> 00:06:55,796 Speaker 1: come across an idea that I thought maybe could fix 102 00:06:55,876 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: this whole mess while back, when the days were cold 103 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: and short and COVID was in one of its peaks. 104 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 1: I went to visit a colleague of mine, Jonathan Zittrain. 105 00:07:08,196 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 1: He teaches at Harvard Law School and he's the co 106 00:07:10,476 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: founder of the Berkman Client Center for Internet and Society. 107 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 1: I had a hunch one of ZiT Traine's ideas would 108 00:07:16,756 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 1: be perfect for my season of solutions. Everyone calls Jonathan 109 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:25,636 Speaker 1: ZiT Train jay z Okay, not jay Z as in 110 00:07:25,796 --> 00:07:29,076 Speaker 1: Jay Z and Beyonce jay Z as in Jay Z 111 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: the legal scholar. He might not be a multi platinum 112 00:07:32,276 --> 00:07:35,436 Speaker 1: Grammy winner, but jay Z is the man. He got 113 00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:38,116 Speaker 1: into computers as a siss up on a CompuServe forum 114 00:07:38,276 --> 00:07:42,076 Speaker 1: for people who love Texas instruments. That's computer speak for 115 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:45,756 Speaker 1: moderator on a discussion board. He was in sixth grade. 116 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: He's still got that anarchic early web energy and faith. 117 00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:53,316 Speaker 1: He's always got these ideas that are so crazy they 118 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:59,636 Speaker 1: just might work. This idea was really, to myself, just 119 00:07:59,756 --> 00:08:02,676 Speaker 1: met as a thought experiment that was clearly goofy. But 120 00:08:02,756 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: I was just going to think it through and see 121 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 1: where it led. And as time has gone on, it 122 00:08:07,516 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: has seemed less and less goofy. Or maybe it's that 123 00:08:09,796 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: everything else has seemed more and more so, so it's 124 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: the last plan standing. Citrian said, I know how to 125 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 1: solve political misinformation and campaign ads, or at least he said, 126 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:25,076 Speaker 1: I have a pretty darn good idea for how to try. Imagine, 127 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,116 Speaker 1: in every Civics or US History classroom in every public 128 00:08:28,236 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: high school across the country, students gathering, say for one 129 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 1: class period a week to decide what political ads should 130 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 1: be allowed on the internet trial by teenager. If we 131 00:08:41,076 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 1: ask those students to have a look at the ads 132 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:48,276 Speaker 1: as they are proposed to be run on a platform 133 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:52,876 Speaker 1: like Facebook, and take a moment and see if they 134 00:08:53,556 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: pass some threshold of disinformation, of lying outright, of inaccuracy, 135 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 1: deliberate in whatever small groups they might form from among 136 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:10,596 Speaker 1: a single classroom, and see if they can come to 137 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:14,676 Speaker 1: consensus or if necessary, a vote on whether the ad 138 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:19,876 Speaker 1: meets a minimum standard of truthfulness. And if the students 139 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: decide that it fails, to their decision sticks and that 140 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: ad will not run. And there you have it high 141 00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:34,916 Speaker 1: school students, they decide. Not only would you, turns out, 142 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:39,196 Speaker 1: have enough high school students to actually manage the scale 143 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 1: of the number of ads being lodged, but maybe you'd 144 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:45,596 Speaker 1: be in a position both to have their decisions respect it, 145 00:09:45,676 --> 00:09:49,876 Speaker 1: and you might be helping them exercise a muscle from 146 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,756 Speaker 1: the vantage of playing the role of an arbiter that 147 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:57,036 Speaker 1: could come in handy as they in turn become voters 148 00:09:57,076 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: a year or two after these exercises. Yeah, I love 149 00:10:00,396 --> 00:10:02,476 Speaker 1: that sort of two for quality about it. Right that 150 00:10:02,516 --> 00:10:06,076 Speaker 1: it both resolves the question of should these ads be 151 00:10:06,196 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 1: made available to the public and how high school students 152 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 1: can learn skills as citizens in a democracy. It also 153 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 1: because as I understood your proposal, you'd be grouping together 154 00:10:18,076 --> 00:10:21,676 Speaker 1: students from different communities kind of anti polarization or check 155 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: against polarization. Is also maybe the piece of I think 156 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:29,436 Speaker 1: that's right for now, and you would get the value 157 00:10:29,836 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: of both the deliberations, and this is something you don't 158 00:10:33,276 --> 00:10:36,476 Speaker 1: much get on a jury. Asking the students to craft 159 00:10:36,516 --> 00:10:39,076 Speaker 1: their reasoning, and it might be that some students would 160 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 1: write in dissent and that that could be very nice. Yeah, Yeah, 161 00:10:42,156 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 1: there could be like a Minority report exactly. Now. I 162 00:10:45,596 --> 00:10:48,556 Speaker 1: think this is a fascinating idea and a really promising one, 163 00:10:49,036 --> 00:10:51,356 Speaker 1: but I want to be very clear about what it's not. 164 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 1: It's not a lark, it's not idle speculation or armchair quarterbacking. 165 00:10:57,556 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 1: It comes from Jay Z's very careful analysis of the 166 00:11:00,556 --> 00:11:04,436 Speaker 1: problem with the Internet and society. He described for me 167 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: three different eras in that history, and the first era 168 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:13,116 Speaker 1: was one of what i'd call the rights era. Era one, 169 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:17,876 Speaker 1: the rights era where anything goes free speech. That era 170 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,356 Speaker 1: lasts through the early years of the Internet and even 171 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:23,156 Speaker 1: the start of social media, and that era you could 172 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 1: say anything you wanted, there are no limits. A lot 173 00:11:25,876 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 1: of people hoped expected even that the Internet with strengthen 174 00:11:29,716 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: democracy by democratizing publishing, and as you know, this isn't 175 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: quite what happened. People started to revolt against this idea 176 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 1: of free speech, and so Era too started around the 177 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:43,476 Speaker 1: year twenty ten, jay Z says, and he calls Era 178 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:47,396 Speaker 1: too the public health era. It's then that some kinds 179 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 1: of speech came to be understood as harm, as if 180 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:53,876 Speaker 1: bad ideas are viruses. But a problem with the public 181 00:11:53,876 --> 00:11:57,316 Speaker 1: health era is this, who decides which speech is harmful. 182 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 1: The problem is that we don't even trust our public institutions, 183 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 1: and it's not like we're trusting Facebook or Twitter these 184 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: days so much so, whom would we want to wield 185 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 1: the power or to shape what we can and can't see. 186 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:14,636 Speaker 1: And that led to me thinking it might be a 187 00:12:14,676 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: third era in the making, which is the era of 188 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 1: legitimacy or process Era three? The process or a legitimacy era, 189 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 1: I think maybe it needs a better name. But jay 190 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 1: Z's point is that in the era we're now in, 191 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 1: we need to find a process, one that people respect 192 00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 1: as legitimate, that can start to reconcile the tension between 193 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:40,156 Speaker 1: rights arguments and public health arguments. And so he says, 194 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:45,876 Speaker 1: what process to people still respect? Trial by jury? You say, gosh, 195 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: what that jury decided doesn't seem like what I would 196 00:12:48,436 --> 00:12:51,036 Speaker 1: decide from what little I followed that case. But they 197 00:12:51,036 --> 00:12:54,956 Speaker 1: were there, they know, and that person who was judged 198 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: by that jury got a fair spin. Would be the 199 00:12:57,316 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 1: idea of an ideal process. From there, jay Z came 200 00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:05,036 Speaker 1: up with the idea of having a jury of high 201 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: school students decide what political ads can and cannot get 202 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 1: stood on social media. For jay Z, this scheme began 203 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 1: as a thought experiment. I mean, I think it also 204 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:17,356 Speaker 1: came out of the fact that he was moderating content 205 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 1: online when he was in sixth grade. But some of 206 00:13:20,436 --> 00:13:23,196 Speaker 1: the best things ever invented started out as thought experiments. 207 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:26,636 Speaker 1: This high school thing, it had started as a thought experiment. 208 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,036 Speaker 1: But I told jay Z I wanted to actually do it, 209 00:13:29,476 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: and then we both got excited because jay Z will 210 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: he thought that if it worked, it might actually become 211 00:13:34,956 --> 00:13:38,516 Speaker 1: a thing. If Mark Zuckerberg woke up on morning or 212 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:40,476 Speaker 1: one of his primary deputies and said this would be 213 00:13:40,516 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 1: a great idea, you could like suddenly have a nationwide 214 00:13:43,796 --> 00:13:49,356 Speaker 1: implementation rather quickly. That makes it very high stakes. That 215 00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:51,996 Speaker 1: brings us back to our experiment. I put together a 216 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 1: lesson plan and I went to Ringe to test it 217 00:13:55,036 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: out to Benji Cohen's class back to school right after 218 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:14,636 Speaker 1: the bill. For those who can't see, my room is 219 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: small and has no windows, and so when I moved in, 220 00:14:17,756 --> 00:14:20,116 Speaker 1: I was like, these walls are going to become tattooed. 221 00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 1: Benji mister Cohen, mister c at age thirty two, He's 222 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:30,956 Speaker 1: already a legend Cohen's Lean. He's a runner in winter. 223 00:14:31,076 --> 00:14:35,756 Speaker 1: He wears Chuck's All Stars otherwise Sandals. He is killer 224 00:14:35,796 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: at Ultimate Frisbee, also tennis. He tells the students they 225 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 1: can gamble their grade on his serve one serve. If 226 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:46,076 Speaker 1: they can return it, he'll give them an A plus. 227 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 1: Otherwise they flunk his class his first year teaching, one 228 00:14:50,156 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 1: kid who was already getting an F took him up 229 00:14:52,356 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: on it. The whole class went outside their tennis courts 230 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:59,436 Speaker 1: out front. Mister Cohen aced him. The kids f stood. 231 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:03,836 Speaker 1: That was four years ago. No one has challenged him since. 232 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:07,636 Speaker 1: The walls of his classroom are covered. There's a giant 233 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 1: poster that reads are you public education is a civil right? 234 00:15:11,476 --> 00:15:14,276 Speaker 1: There's a photo of James Baldwin, and paste it on 235 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 1: all four walls. Our student projects. Some highlights include the 236 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:21,996 Speaker 1: Pizza Gate board game. I teach a class about American 237 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 1: politics and current events, and we do a unit on 238 00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 1: like conspiracy thinking and the infiltration of that into politics, 239 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 1: and so we examine pizza Gate and some students decided 240 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:38,236 Speaker 1: to turn it into a game. This school, Cambridge Ringe 241 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 1: in Latin School, a Ringe, as everyone calls it, is 242 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: a big citywide public school. My kids all went to Ringe. 243 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 1: Come on school, has nearly two thousand students. More than 244 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:55,836 Speaker 1: half of them are students of color. Kids at Range 245 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 1: are native speakers of more than twenty languages. At graduation, 246 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:02,516 Speaker 1: they welcome the audience in each of those languages. I've 247 00:16:02,556 --> 00:16:05,156 Speaker 1: attended that ceremony, and I can tell you everyone cries 248 00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 1: when that part happens. If you live in Cambridge, you 249 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:11,156 Speaker 1: heard about the famous people Blue went to Ryne, Patrick Ewing, 250 00:16:11,636 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 1: Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, Casey Affleck build a Blasio, 251 00:16:15,996 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 1: NPRS car talk guys. They went to Rynch too, Benji Cohen, 252 00:16:20,636 --> 00:16:25,356 Speaker 1: he went to Ryne. Anyway, it's a fantastic, amazing, hubbubby school. 253 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 1: What's the morning? We went to Ryne just after MLK Day. 254 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: The kids tramped in winter coats, face masks, backpacks, looking 255 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:46,476 Speaker 1: a little sleepy. They slouched into those chairs, you know, 256 00:16:46,516 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 1: the ones with the tennis balls on the feet. They 257 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:52,676 Speaker 1: checked TikTok, and then mister Cohen got started. All right, 258 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: everyone put your welcome. Um, here's what we're gonna do today. 259 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:02,116 Speaker 1: Our guests are gonna introduce themselves and then we're just 260 00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:04,876 Speaker 1: gonna jump right in. Sound like a plaid. All right, 261 00:17:04,956 --> 00:17:08,556 Speaker 1: rock on, let's do it all right, Good morning everybody. Um, 262 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:11,236 Speaker 1: mister cos I told you were working out on a podcast, 263 00:17:11,596 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: and the podcast is about how people know things and 264 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,436 Speaker 1: know whether things are true. Something one. There's a piece 265 00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:20,356 Speaker 1: of paper at your desks. You can use it or 266 00:17:20,436 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 1: you cannot. The first thing I want you to think 267 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: about as a collective, just talk to each other. You 268 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:27,236 Speaker 1: could write notes if you want, is what is a 269 00:17:27,276 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 1: fact and how do you know when something is true? 270 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 1: We wanted to figure out how kids thought about facts, opinions, beliefs. 271 00:17:35,876 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 1: Twenty or so students, mostly juniors, divided into four groups 272 00:17:39,596 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 1: and sat huddled around tables, pushed together, trying to write 273 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:45,916 Speaker 1: a definition for the word fact. It was a kind 274 00:17:45,956 --> 00:17:53,796 Speaker 1: of beautiful chaos. That is like something that I feel 275 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 1: like people getting back to a beliefs like Ruth is 276 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 1: a junior, plays on the basketball team. She's also part 277 00:18:01,196 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: of a student run project at Ringe whose aim is 278 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 1: to integrate more of the black past into the history curriculum. 279 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: She seemed like a classic go getter for the room. 280 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:13,596 Speaker 1: Hand raised kind of kid. Mister Cohen nodded along, encouraging them. 281 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: Then he called on a ninth grader, Oh, yes, start, 282 00:18:16,916 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: what's a fact. So a fact is something that can 283 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 1: be like proven. You have a statement that's been said, 284 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: like um Benji was born on July twenty second, July 285 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 1: twenty second, nineteen ninety two or whatever I wish um 286 00:18:35,356 --> 00:18:38,156 Speaker 1: and to prove that he would have like a birth 287 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 1: certificate to prove it, which would mean like, you know, 288 00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 1: that's that, that's the fact. And but like I think 289 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:47,476 Speaker 1: that's what happened. As sounds what you're saying you need 290 00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:52,076 Speaker 1: like a primary source. Yeah, ok yeah, that okay, great, 291 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: good start. But then what mister Cohen kept pushing them. 292 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: And what's striking here I hope you can hear it 293 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:00,876 Speaker 1: because it blew my ears right off my head is 294 00:19:00,876 --> 00:19:03,556 Speaker 1: the seriousness with which the students are taking all of this. 295 00:19:04,196 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 1: Sure they're messing around, but there's a real sense of 296 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:12,036 Speaker 1: solemn responsibility that this civic exercise. Maybe it matters maybe 297 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:14,196 Speaker 1: to their great okay, and maybe to their relationship to 298 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: mister Cohen, whom they all adore, but also their relationship 299 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:20,916 Speaker 1: to one another and to themselves. They care, they really 300 00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: care about getting this right. From the start, they cared 301 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:27,036 Speaker 1: about that, they cared about doing it well. Mister Cohen 302 00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: has this way of urging his students on. It just 303 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 1: knocked me out. Be brave, He'll say, go for it. 304 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:37,516 Speaker 1: Rock on, We're gonna rock with an example. Get it 305 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: from the back. I want to hear what everyone has 306 00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:42,476 Speaker 1: to say. Okay, so Robbie, Robbie trying to make trouble 307 00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:46,596 Speaker 1: Soren in the morning. So here's the question. You're ready, 308 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:51,196 Speaker 1: you're ready? Is it a fact that on January sixth, 309 00:19:51,516 --> 00:19:54,116 Speaker 1: Trump supporters went into the United States Capital? Is that 310 00:19:54,516 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: an established fact? And if so, how do you know? 311 00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 1: Go ahead? Oh, yes, it is. So there's two parts 312 00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: of this. There's the went into the Capitol part and 313 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:05,276 Speaker 1: the Trump supporters part. After the went into the Capitol part. 314 00:20:05,316 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: We have video have it enjoying the people were in 315 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:09,756 Speaker 1: the Capitol, and we also know from the um and 316 00:20:09,756 --> 00:20:13,596 Speaker 1: it's so people appeared to be Trump supporters. It's a fact, Isaac. 317 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,156 Speaker 1: You just heard Isaac. He's a junior, remember the school 318 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:19,036 Speaker 1: debate team. He was sitting next to Robbie, who started 319 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:22,836 Speaker 1: the school hiking club. Robbie piped up next, I'm under 320 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:26,356 Speaker 1: the belief that, I mean, there's like a one true fact. 321 00:20:26,396 --> 00:20:29,636 Speaker 1: It's just whether we know it or not. And me 322 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,196 Speaker 1: personally I'm ninety nine percent sure that it actually was 323 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: Trump supporters, but there's always, like, there's always a possibility 324 00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 1: that it's something completely different. I think at this point 325 00:20:40,436 --> 00:20:43,036 Speaker 1: it's not even whether or not you know it, it's 326 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:46,316 Speaker 1: whether or not you believe it. Robbie and Isaac and Zach, 327 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:49,196 Speaker 1: boys in the back of the room kept ramping it up. 328 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: In the mythology of the big city public school classroom, 329 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 1: the boys in the back of the room would be 330 00:20:54,356 --> 00:20:57,516 Speaker 1: leaning their chairs back, chewing gum, throwing wads of paper 331 00:20:57,556 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 1: at the front. But mister Cohen knows these kids are smart, 332 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: so is a fact just about belief? He was just 333 00:21:05,996 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 1: accepting it. I'm on tea team that they must be this. 334 00:21:11,116 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 1: And that's where it's true. Any of the understandings of 335 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:16,956 Speaker 1: a fact separate from that example, what else makes a 336 00:21:16,956 --> 00:21:20,596 Speaker 1: fact affect alight? Go for it alor he's a senior, 337 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,236 Speaker 1: he's in the school musical Well, like I really liked um, 338 00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:28,156 Speaker 1: Like George Ryals nineteen eighty four when he when he 339 00:21:28,236 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: was talking about like whether the truth really matters? And 340 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 1: of course it does matter to all of the characters, right, 341 00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 1: Like the final thing that they ask you to dismisses 342 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:40,996 Speaker 1: the truth of your eyes and ears fact actually about 343 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:46,716 Speaker 1: like what majority accepted. Is that what makes a fact 344 00:21:46,716 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 1: a fact? No, because that goes directly contrary to like 345 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:53,756 Speaker 1: the definition of facts that we've talked about before, which 346 00:21:53,796 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: is a fact is something that can be basically verified 347 00:21:56,196 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 1: correct evidence. All right. That leaves us in a good place, yep, 348 00:22:01,716 --> 00:22:04,916 Speaker 1: a good place with a working definition of a fact, 349 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:08,996 Speaker 1: and ready to apply that definition to some political ads, mister, 350 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 1: and moved to that. Next, we're gonna watch two ads. 351 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: These are we'll see what actually happens. I think the 352 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:21,836 Speaker 1: Republican incumbent, meaning the guy who's currently the Republican senator 353 00:22:21,836 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 1: at Wisconsin. It's his reelection ad. His name is Ron Johnson, 354 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 1: and I think fair to saying maybe the Democratic front 355 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 1: runner to challenge him. So you're gonna watch two ads 356 00:22:34,276 --> 00:22:37,396 Speaker 1: in a row, mister Cohen, students were ready to be 357 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 1: called to the jury. They'd be evaluating two internet ads 358 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,036 Speaker 1: from the same race for a Senate seat in Wisconsin. 359 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:47,996 Speaker 1: We picked Wisconsin sort of randomly, but this looked like 360 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 1: an interesting race, and the goal of the first experiment 361 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 1: was just to see how the kids thought about truth 362 00:22:52,916 --> 00:22:55,516 Speaker 1: in advertising. See if they'd even be interested in this. 363 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 1: So for this version of the experiment, we wanted to 364 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:02,436 Speaker 1: ask high schoolers to consider candidates from another state campaigns 365 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:06,116 Speaker 1: they'd probably not followed or even heard of. First, the 366 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:11,116 Speaker 1: Democrat Mandela Barnes excuses are nothing but a dead end 367 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:15,916 Speaker 1: into expectations are something to be shattered. You can't see it. 368 00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: So I'll just tell you this whole ad. Basically, Barnes 369 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: is running, literally running in track shoes and short way. 370 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:27,276 Speaker 1: There are no idle hands here, no low we haven't carried, 371 00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 1: no one waiting for a handout. We were free pass. 372 00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 1: But that hard work isn't paying off like it used to. 373 00:23:34,436 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 1: My mom takes school for thirty years. My dad worked 374 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:39,436 Speaker 1: third shift at the factory. When I think about their 375 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: hard work, about everything that wisconstant, families have on the line. 376 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:46,756 Speaker 1: There's no option to tap out, no tie to throw in. 377 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: Instead of changing our dreams, we got to change the game. 378 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:55,116 Speaker 1: That's America had his court in this state, our state. 379 00:23:55,716 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 1: We were the first to ratify the Nineteenth Amendment giving 380 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:00,116 Speaker 1: women the right to vote. We were the first to 381 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:05,516 Speaker 1: protect the rights of the LGBTQ community. We are game. Okay, 382 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:12,596 Speaker 1: that's number one is number two. Remember the task of 383 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:15,236 Speaker 1: this jury is to watch and listen and look for 384 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 1: assertions of fact, because afterward they'll have to check them. 385 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: So next we all watch the Republican incumbent sad this 386 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: guy's running for reelection as Wisconsin Senator. Our country is 387 00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 1: in troubled. Democrat policies have been disastrous for America, opened 388 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: borders in a flood of illegal immigrants, the twenty twenty 389 00:24:35,356 --> 00:24:40,396 Speaker 1: summer Ryans defunding the police, glowering bail, and not prosecuting criminals. 390 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: The result more crime, human and sex trafficking, record, drug overdoses, 391 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 1: Kenosha set on fire, a growing number of murders in Milwaukee, 392 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,636 Speaker 1: and the walk Shop Christmas Parade turned into a terrible tragedy. 393 00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:58,236 Speaker 1: It feels like our country is being torn apart. That's 394 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: not how it felt when I ran in twenty sixteen. 395 00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 1: Back then, I intended to serve a second term and 396 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 1: go home. But now with the Democrats in total control, 397 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:10,516 Speaker 1: our nation's on a very dangerous path. If you're in 398 00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:12,996 Speaker 1: a position to help make our country safer and stronger, 399 00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 1: would you just walk away? I've decided I can't. I'll 400 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: stand and fight for freedom I'm Ron Johnson, and I've 401 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 1: proved this message because I love America and Wisconsin just 402 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:28,156 Speaker 1: like you. So the students watched the two ads, Ron 403 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: Johnson Mandela Barnes. Then we handed out transcripts of what 404 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: the candidates had said, line by line, and mister Cohen 405 00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 1: divided the class into two groups, one for each candidate. No, 406 00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:44,556 Speaker 1: it's no y'all handled round. Y'all would say, y'all handled one, 407 00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 1: Bendella Barnes, listen close? What using those sheets in front 408 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:51,676 Speaker 1: of you? Does your ad have statements of fact? Find 409 00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:54,636 Speaker 1: out which ones are true? Actually find out? Get a computer, 410 00:25:54,796 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 1: look one person. Is this ad useful? Is your ads 411 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:04,236 Speaker 1: true enough to be posted online by social media companies? Why? 412 00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:08,196 Speaker 1: Or why not? Enjoy? Have fun? Ron Johnson Mandela Barnes 413 00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:12,436 Speaker 1: will do it. I started at watching the kids who 414 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 1: were evaluating Mendela Barnes's ad, The Jogging Democrat Are the 415 00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:20,316 Speaker 1: kid in the school musical jumped in first. I mean 416 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:23,516 Speaker 1: he said to protect the rights of the LGBTQ community. Like, 417 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 1: even though that's super broad, I feel like it's at 418 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:29,796 Speaker 1: least a stance kind of but it's still so vague. 419 00:26:29,996 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 1: Pretty workers is something that either one of them could say, 420 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 1: like the Democrat and the Republicans, what does it mean 421 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 1: to protect exactly right? I also thought it was odd 422 00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:41,356 Speaker 1: how he said we were the first to protect the 423 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,996 Speaker 1: rights of the LGBTQ community. But I'm like, what does 424 00:26:45,036 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 1: that mean? Where do you start? That's that's a pretty 425 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 1: you can either find if that's correct or not. It's okay. 426 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 1: They only had about twenty minutes to get this done, 427 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:04,276 Speaker 1: but they took out their phones and started searching looking 428 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,436 Speaker 1: for places to catch Mendela Barnes in an error of fact. 429 00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:11,316 Speaker 1: Teenagers are pretty good at the art of the takedown. 430 00:27:11,876 --> 00:27:17,236 Speaker 1: The first thing by NPS dot Gov. June tenth, nineteen nineteen. Illinois, Michigan, 431 00:27:17,236 --> 00:27:20,396 Speaker 1: and Wisconsin became the first states to ratify the amendment. 432 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:28,396 Speaker 1: Wisconsin was among the first among the first foot well, 433 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:30,636 Speaker 1: maybe his we statement all right, if we make it 434 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:32,516 Speaker 1: vague enough, He's like, we as in like all of 435 00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:35,796 Speaker 1: the states I did it with or maybe within nineteen nineteen, 436 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:40,316 Speaker 1: Wisconsin was first on the calendar. Oh, I think there's other. 437 00:27:43,916 --> 00:27:46,196 Speaker 1: I left them mulling over that one. Then I headed 438 00:27:46,196 --> 00:27:48,836 Speaker 1: over to the group that was evaluating the Republican Ron 439 00:27:48,916 --> 00:27:52,316 Speaker 1: Johnson said they've gotten really interested in this one line 440 00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:55,476 Speaker 1: listed on the transcript that we'd handed out, line ten, 441 00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:58,516 Speaker 1: where the senator says, as part of a list of 442 00:27:58,516 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 1: things that are wrong with America, Kenosha set on fire. 443 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:05,916 Speaker 1: Mister Cohen got them started. Okay, I want one of 444 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 1: you to explain how we've just gone through this thinking 445 00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:11,396 Speaker 1: about line ten. So start from the beginning. When we 446 00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 1: looked at the lines before we Consha set on fire? 447 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:20,996 Speaker 1: What did we think was Kenosha set on fire? Were 448 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:26,156 Speaker 1: there fires in Kenosha fires? Right? I'm just looking at 449 00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:28,716 Speaker 1: his line here, right, he says, Conosha set on fire. 450 00:28:29,316 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 1: If we googled right now, was Conosha set on fire? 451 00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 1: What would we find? Well, I guess Peter doing right now? 452 00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:39,356 Speaker 1: You can tell us a moment. What I'm what I'm 453 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,396 Speaker 1: getting at is is there a fact here? But there's 454 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 1: something missing in the fact Kenosha might have been set 455 00:28:47,636 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 1: on fire? But like, what is missing here? Context? Context? 456 00:28:52,116 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 1: Who set it on fire? Why it was set on fire? 457 00:28:54,076 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 1: In the context? That feels valuable information? Right. The students 458 00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:05,036 Speaker 1: did a bunch more googling, close reading of the transcripts 459 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 1: of the ad checking facts. This much was clear for 460 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: this experiment to really work, students would need more time, 461 00:29:12,196 --> 00:29:14,996 Speaker 1: not just one class period, maybe more like a week. 462 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,356 Speaker 1: I have an idea that's Ruth again stepping in to 463 00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 1: save the day and come up with a possible verdict. 464 00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 1: I feel like I could kind of be a good ideas, like, 465 00:29:24,156 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: so both perspectives at the same time, because I know, 466 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:29,196 Speaker 1: like first, for example, at first I could be this, 467 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:30,796 Speaker 1: and then the next slide could be like the other 468 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:36,316 Speaker 1: side of it. So yeah, speaking at two perspectives at 469 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:39,796 Speaker 1: the same time. And also like um, when like when 470 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 1: you postum this specific campaign on on social media and stuff, 471 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 1: there can be like a link for like different words 472 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 1: of kenosha and then you click on your earn like 473 00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:50,676 Speaker 1: it takes you and like you actually know facts. So 474 00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:53,396 Speaker 1: it's just like all you learn stuff altogether rather than 475 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 1: just like seeing one thing and then going with it 476 00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 1: like you're presented with both sides and like contexts has worked. 477 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 1: So this is a good idea, a really good idea. 478 00:30:02,676 --> 00:30:04,956 Speaker 1: But it isn't a new idea. It is in fact 479 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: the fairness doctrine. The classic way of navigating the murky 480 00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 1: waters were fact and opinion mix. Still, the idea was 481 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,956 Speaker 1: new to Ruth, and she came up with it in 482 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 1: one class period. Up until this moment, I'd been wondering 483 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:20,796 Speaker 1: would this experiment work, would these kids get it? This 484 00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:24,636 Speaker 1: was when I knew it was working. Soon we'd get 485 00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: to hear their verdicts coming up after the break. The 486 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 1: high school history students at Ringe were about the most 487 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:38,996 Speaker 1: thoughtful commentators on the problem of political misinformation that I 488 00:30:39,076 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 1: had ever come across. I could have listened to them forever, 489 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:44,236 Speaker 1: But mister Cohen knew the bill was going to ring 490 00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 1: pretty soon. He called everyone back together time for a 491 00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:51,756 Speaker 1: final verdict. Both ads were true enough, the students said, 492 00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: both could be posted on social media. Then mister Cohen 493 00:30:56,156 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 1: asked a different question, who is more honest, Mandela Barnes 494 00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:05,436 Speaker 1: or Ron Johnson? In your opinion, who presents a more 495 00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:12,636 Speaker 1: honest view of themselves as politician? This turned out to 496 00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:15,516 Speaker 1: be a really difficult question. For a minute, the kids 497 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:21,036 Speaker 1: were stumped. They hadn't thought about honesty. Robbie said, honesty 498 00:31:21,156 --> 00:31:24,036 Speaker 1: is a political good, maybe it really counts. And then 499 00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: when you started thinking about honesty and thinking about those 500 00:31:27,356 --> 00:31:32,996 Speaker 1: two ads through that lens, the ads looked different. Johnson, 501 00:31:33,036 --> 00:31:37,556 Speaker 1: the Republican incumbent Remember and Barnes, his Democratic challenger. I 502 00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: could not predict what Barnes would vote for, which, as 503 00:31:40,476 --> 00:31:45,236 Speaker 1: a voter is most important to me. Barnes thing his 504 00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:48,236 Speaker 1: ad is so generic that I don't know where he stands, like, 505 00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:50,676 Speaker 1: I don't know his base at all. I don't know 506 00:31:50,716 --> 00:31:53,156 Speaker 1: how progressive he is. I don't know how modern he is. 507 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: I mean the Democratic Party as a whole, it's like 508 00:31:55,316 --> 00:31:59,276 Speaker 1: a huge spectrum. So specifically for Barnes, I feel like 509 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:01,196 Speaker 1: I get less of a read on him as a 510 00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:04,636 Speaker 1: person than I do on Johnson, even if I may 511 00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,476 Speaker 1: agree with him. So this question of personally, yeah, so 512 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 1: this question of honesty, would you say Johnson is more 513 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:14,876 Speaker 1: like Johnson is now more honest with himself, He's more 514 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:17,236 Speaker 1: honest with his policy. I don't know who Johnson as 515 00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 1: a as a person. I never will, but at least 516 00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:22,796 Speaker 1: I will know what he's going to vote for. And 517 00:32:22,956 --> 00:32:25,396 Speaker 1: with that, the class was just about over and it 518 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: was time to head off to calculus and Spanish and banned. 519 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:32,476 Speaker 1: But before we stopped recording, mister Cohen asked one last 520 00:32:32,556 --> 00:32:36,516 Speaker 1: question just before the bell rang. He wanted to know 521 00:32:37,236 --> 00:32:40,276 Speaker 1: if this actually happened, if high school kids were actually 522 00:32:40,316 --> 00:32:44,476 Speaker 1: tasked with vetting political advertisements. Would these kids want to 523 00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:51,596 Speaker 1: take part? How should social media companies decide, well, there's 524 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 1: true enough to be posted. Which one of you is 525 00:32:54,516 --> 00:33:04,076 Speaker 1: going to be brave? Talk to me? Come on? Look 526 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:08,356 Speaker 1: got a jar? He was looking at me. Sheriffs had 527 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,036 Speaker 1: been quiet for a while. Mister Cohen was giving her 528 00:33:11,076 --> 00:33:14,316 Speaker 1: an encouraging stare. Helly, do you think it's good for 529 00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:18,196 Speaker 1: Do you want the responsibility as a citizen democracy? No? 530 00:33:18,276 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. I think I don't know if I should 531 00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:23,116 Speaker 1: have that much of it to say of how social 532 00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:26,676 Speaker 1: media companies like dictate what they do. I don't know 533 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:32,236 Speaker 1: if that's then everyone had an opinion. Honestly, no one 534 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 1: knows social media better than teenagers. The social media companies 535 00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:40,036 Speaker 1: shouldn't be in charge at all. They have way too 536 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: much to gain. I don't know if it should be teenagers, 537 00:33:43,676 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: but it should just not be social media companies at all. 538 00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:50,836 Speaker 1: I feel like we definitely should be asking random people, 539 00:33:50,956 --> 00:33:53,556 Speaker 1: random citizens, to be the fact checkers, because they have 540 00:33:53,596 --> 00:33:56,236 Speaker 1: no idea. I think that the reason that works for 541 00:33:56,316 --> 00:33:59,756 Speaker 1: jurys is because cases can take like weeks and stuff. 542 00:34:00,036 --> 00:34:02,956 Speaker 1: I don't want to spend weeks of my life deciding 543 00:34:02,956 --> 00:34:04,996 Speaker 1: whether or not to flag a post of thirty likes 544 00:34:04,996 --> 00:34:09,836 Speaker 1: on Facebook. Then and no nonsense. I hit A junior 545 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:13,676 Speaker 1: named Geffen jumped in. He jumped all in. I don't 546 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:16,036 Speaker 1: think that the social media companies should be deciding what's 547 00:34:16,036 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: true and what isn't true. They shouldn't be controlling what 548 00:34:19,396 --> 00:34:23,556 Speaker 1: we see. Diversity of thought is important. Shutting everyone down 549 00:34:23,596 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 1: like Putin does not so great. I don't support that, 550 00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:29,276 Speaker 1: but of course it is their right to do it, 551 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,436 Speaker 1: because it's their own business. Deefin. If you were to 552 00:34:31,556 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 1: lean sort of all any meeting, the social media companies 553 00:34:34,396 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 1: should just allow politicians to post whatever, don't regulate any 554 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:40,796 Speaker 1: of it, or don't allow any of it. Where would 555 00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:43,996 Speaker 1: you fall? They should not ban anything, just let it 556 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:48,076 Speaker 1: all out. Yeah, did anyone want it? No? No one. 557 00:34:48,356 --> 00:34:52,916 Speaker 1: No one wants to be that group decides. Everyone shook 558 00:34:52,956 --> 00:34:56,436 Speaker 1: their heads. Nah. They didn't want that responsibility. They didn't 559 00:34:56,476 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 1: want to be making binding decisions for Facebook. Not Isaac, 560 00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:05,196 Speaker 1: not Geffen, not Sherriffs, not Robbie. To any students, shaking 561 00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:11,236 Speaker 1: their heads, hell yeah you got pad, you classic credit, 562 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:18,396 Speaker 1: Yeah you got today. Oh I was kind of staggered 563 00:35:18,436 --> 00:35:20,876 Speaker 1: to hear that these incredible students didn't want to be 564 00:35:20,916 --> 00:35:23,196 Speaker 1: the ones deciding what political ads are true enough to 565 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:25,876 Speaker 1: go up on social media. They either thought someone else 566 00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:29,356 Speaker 1: should do it, or it shouldn't be done, or they 567 00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:31,876 Speaker 1: do it if they could get paid like me. Mister 568 00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:35,316 Speaker 1: Cohen seemed pretty crestfall and he asked his students if 569 00:35:35,356 --> 00:35:38,836 Speaker 1: in that case, democracy is just screwed? Are you asking 570 00:35:39,196 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 1: like democracy a concept is like inevitably like like screwed? 571 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:53,396 Speaker 1: Be willing to like democracy is a but you like 572 00:35:53,996 --> 00:36:04,516 Speaker 1: hard it? I don't aside your essays, you'll do it. 573 00:36:08,116 --> 00:36:10,796 Speaker 1: Mister Cohen was trying to make a deal with his students. 574 00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:14,876 Speaker 1: No homework. Okay, look, how about a different deal. Mister 575 00:36:14,956 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 1: Cohen has that standing offer to all of his students. 576 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:20,356 Speaker 1: If a student can return his killer Tennis serve, they 577 00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 1: get an a. So how about any student who can 578 00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:26,996 Speaker 1: return mister Cohen serve can skip this assignment and doesn't 579 00:36:26,996 --> 00:36:29,556 Speaker 1: have to decide what political ads can go up on Facebook. 580 00:36:30,116 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 1: But all you students who can't return that man serve, 581 00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:37,076 Speaker 1: it is on you. The kids zipped up their backpacks, 582 00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:40,636 Speaker 1: grabbed their water bottles, and left for the next period. 583 00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:49,276 Speaker 1: They'd issued their verdict. Their job was done in this 584 00:36:49,396 --> 00:36:53,596 Speaker 1: test run. They'd set high standards, clear standards, hard rules. 585 00:36:53,796 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 1: They challenged one another. They're willing to change their minds. 586 00:36:57,996 --> 00:37:00,236 Speaker 1: These kids brought to this assignment a whole lot of 587 00:37:00,276 --> 00:37:04,156 Speaker 1: savvy and energy, and those are brought an extraordinary capacity 588 00:37:04,236 --> 00:37:06,436 Speaker 1: to look beyond their own views, to think about the 589 00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:11,356 Speaker 1: needs of everyone the public. My verdict, Jay Z's idea 590 00:37:11,396 --> 00:37:14,236 Speaker 1: for high school juries to be the final content moderators 591 00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:17,996 Speaker 1: of political ads online is even more brilliant than I thought. 592 00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:24,676 Speaker 1: I was thinking two things when I left Benji Cohen's classroom. 593 00:37:24,836 --> 00:37:28,796 Speaker 1: The first was, maybe our civic institutions still work. It 594 00:37:28,916 --> 00:37:30,716 Speaker 1: felt good to spend a day in a public high 595 00:37:30,716 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 1: school classroom and see an amazing teacher working his magic, 596 00:37:34,836 --> 00:37:37,956 Speaker 1: see students being brave. We'd have to convince them that 597 00:37:37,996 --> 00:37:41,636 Speaker 1: they wanted to evaluate ads, but that seemed possible. Maybe 598 00:37:41,636 --> 00:37:45,396 Speaker 1: the kids were all right. The second thing I was thinking, though, 599 00:37:45,756 --> 00:37:48,556 Speaker 1: was that the solution can't come quickly enough. It was 600 00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:51,836 Speaker 1: winter twenty twenty two, and already the nation was gearing 601 00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:56,316 Speaker 1: up for another brutal election cycle. The last presidential election, 602 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:59,356 Speaker 1: the Biden and Trump campaigns together spent more than four 603 00:37:59,436 --> 00:38:03,396 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty million dollars on ads online. That's not 604 00:38:03,516 --> 00:38:07,116 Speaker 1: counting all the state and local races. It seemed a 605 00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:10,236 Speaker 1: safe bet that the money spent on online ads was 606 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:15,396 Speaker 1: only growing, and so were the lies. So I'll be honest. 607 00:38:15,796 --> 00:38:17,876 Speaker 1: I tried this at first because we were working on 608 00:38:17,916 --> 00:38:19,676 Speaker 1: the new season of our show and I wanted to 609 00:38:19,676 --> 00:38:22,636 Speaker 1: do an episode on political misinformation, and this was just 610 00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:26,556 Speaker 1: a very provocative proposal. But now I'd gone full Mad 611 00:38:26,636 --> 00:38:30,316 Speaker 1: Soto scientist. I'd become convinced that Jonathan Zitrin's idea was 612 00:38:30,356 --> 00:38:33,076 Speaker 1: a great one, but I knew I hadn't sufficiently proven 613 00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:35,796 Speaker 1: that it could work, and Jay z was right. If 614 00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:38,196 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg decided to run with this, it could be 615 00:38:38,276 --> 00:38:41,636 Speaker 1: policy in a few months. So I went back to 616 00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,796 Speaker 1: the lab. There were two things I needed to fix. First, 617 00:38:46,356 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 1: one class period was not enough time for students to 618 00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:52,716 Speaker 1: properly fact check and add Second, what if this class 619 00:38:52,796 --> 00:38:55,356 Speaker 1: was a one off? Due to the genius of mister Cohen, 620 00:38:56,076 --> 00:38:58,836 Speaker 1: everything in his classroom, from the stuff on the walls 621 00:38:58,916 --> 00:39:01,436 Speaker 1: to his voice, said you are here to listen to 622 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:03,836 Speaker 1: one another and to learn, and to care and to 623 00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:07,596 Speaker 1: do good. And to be brave. So to really test 624 00:39:07,596 --> 00:39:09,476 Speaker 1: this idea, I figured I needed to try it out 625 00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:13,316 Speaker 1: at a bigger scale, different people, different place, teachers I 626 00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:16,396 Speaker 1: don't know, schools I wasn't familiar with. I also wanted 627 00:39:16,436 --> 00:39:18,956 Speaker 1: to try out a longer version, with more ads and 628 00:39:19,076 --> 00:39:23,156 Speaker 1: giving students more time to do the research. And then, 629 00:39:23,196 --> 00:39:25,276 Speaker 1: most of all, I wanted to mix things up and 630 00:39:25,436 --> 00:39:30,556 Speaker 1: add another crucial element of Jonathan Zittrain's idea, political differences 631 00:39:30,636 --> 00:39:33,956 Speaker 1: on the teen Jury. It's not that there weren't differences 632 00:39:33,956 --> 00:39:37,836 Speaker 1: at ringe. There were, but not enough differences. I needed 633 00:39:37,836 --> 00:39:40,476 Speaker 1: to ask students in two different schools to evaluate the 634 00:39:40,516 --> 00:39:44,276 Speaker 1: same ads. Students and two high schools in two very 635 00:39:44,316 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 1: different states. Next time on the Last Archive, Trial by 636 00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:53,036 Speaker 1: high school take two a whole other level, across state lines, 637 00:39:53,756 --> 00:39:58,636 Speaker 1: dueling schools, the March Madness, the World Series, the Olympic Games, 638 00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:12,236 Speaker 1: effect Checking The Last Archive is written and hosted by 639 00:40:12,276 --> 00:40:16,156 Speaker 1: me Jill Lapour. It's produced by Sophie Crane, Ben Natt 640 00:40:16,196 --> 00:40:19,636 Speaker 1: of Hafrey and Lucy Sullivan. Our editors are Julia Barton 641 00:40:19,716 --> 00:40:22,716 Speaker 1: and Sophie Crane, and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. 642 00:40:23,316 --> 00:40:26,956 Speaker 1: Jake Gorsky is our engineer. Fact checking by Amy Gaines. 643 00:40:27,476 --> 00:40:32,236 Speaker 1: Original music by Matthias Boss and John Evans of Stellwagen Symfinett. 644 00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:36,596 Speaker 1: Our research assistant is Mia Hazra. Our full proof player 645 00:40:36,916 --> 00:40:39,876 Speaker 1: is Robert Ricotta. Many of our sound effects are from 646 00:40:39,876 --> 00:40:43,996 Speaker 1: Harry Janette Junior at the Star Jennette Foundation. Special thanks 647 00:40:43,996 --> 00:40:46,876 Speaker 1: to Benji Cohen and the Cambridge Ringe in Latin High School. 648 00:40:47,116 --> 00:40:49,876 Speaker 1: The Last Archive is a production of Pushkin Industries. If 649 00:40:49,876 --> 00:40:53,276 Speaker 1: you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering 650 00:40:53,316 --> 00:40:56,956 Speaker 1: bonus content like The Last Archivist, a limited series just 651 00:40:57,076 --> 00:41:00,836 Speaker 1: for subscribers, and add free listening across our network for 652 00:41:00,916 --> 00:41:03,636 Speaker 1: four ninety nine a month. Look for the Pushkin Plus 653 00:41:03,756 --> 00:41:08,036 Speaker 1: channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. If 654 00:41:08,036 --> 00:41:10,356 Speaker 1: you like the show, please you remember to rate, share 655 00:41:10,436 --> 00:41:13,996 Speaker 1: and review. To find more pushkun podcasts. Listen on the 656 00:41:13,996 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 657 00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:19,276 Speaker 1: I'm Jillapoor.